Nauseating Child-Sex in the Muslim Societies
Child Marriage:
Regarding child marriage, the Wikipedia Encyclopedia says, “Child marriage usually refers to two separate social phenomena which are practiced in some societies. The first and more widespread practice is that of marrying a young child (generally defined as below the age of fifteen) to an adult. In practice, it is almost always a young girl married to a man. The second practice is a form of arranged marriage in which the parents of two children from different families arrange a future marriage. In this practice, the individuals who become betrothed often do not meet one another until the wedding ceremony, which occurs when they are both considered to be of a marriageable age.” In this context, it may be mentioned that, in 1882, when Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was married to Kasturba, he was 13 and Kasturba was 14.
The latter kind of child marriage, though violates some aspects of human rights, or especially children’s rights, it cannot be called ugly or vulgar, since it was between two young people of equal age. In the olden days, such marriages used to take place also for political reasons. For example, the son or daughter of the royal family of a weaker power would sometimes be arranged to marry into the royal family of a stronger neighbouring power, thus preventing itself from being assimilated. Families were able to cement political and/or financial ties by having their children inter-marry. But today, due to an increase in the awareness of human rights, this tradition of child marriage has decreased greatly or has become obsolete in progressive societies, as in modern times it is considered unfair and dangerous for the children. Even though, it cannot be denied that there is a good possibility that such a marriage might end up in a happy married life based on mutual love and respect between the couple.
Ugly and Vulgar Child Marriages:
But when a 49-year-old Nigerian senator marries a 13-year-old girl, or a 43-year-old Indonesian cleric marries a 12-year-old girl, or a 47-year-old Saudi man marries an 8-year-old child, or a 60-year-old wealthy Arab marries 3 girls, all under the age of 16, at a single sitting (within ten minutes), there is no alternative but to label these marriages immoral, ugly, vulgar and nauseating. It is important to note that, all such incidents take place in the Muslim community and in all such incidents, the grooms have to pay fat cash to the father/guardian of the child-brides as bride-price or mehr.
So, these incidents are nothing but buying and selling of child sex-slaves, or simply flesh-trade, in the name of marriage. It has been pointed out in an earlier article that this vile practice of Child marriage in Muslim society devastates lives of little girls in many ways. Most importantly, marriages between two individuals of such unequal age and maturity can never develop into a loving and mutually respectful one, which should be central in marriage or between couples. It becomes a relationship between master and slave, and to be more accurate, between master and sex-slave. … There is another, rather cruel and tragic, aspect to it. It is the bodily torture, not only beating as allowed by Allah, but also by forcing those little girls into sex, for which they are not physically prepared, even if we ignore their mental preparedness.
Most importantly, a sexual intercourse between the husband and wife, with such unequal age difference, is nothing but a rape and the child-wife would continue to be a victim of rape throughout her life. Her misfortune starts as soon as her father or guardian decides to sell her to a man in the name of marriage. Islamic scriptures say that, no marriage could be held without the consent of the bride. And if the girl refrains from expressing her mind, her silence should be treated as her consent.
A Hadith, in this regard, says – Narrated Abu Huraira – the Prophet said, “A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission.” The people asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! How can we know her permission?” He said, “Her silence (indicates her permission).” (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67):
The question naturally arises – When the Prophet married 6-year-old Ayesha, did anybody asked for her consent? Or, did it mean anything to a 6-year-old child, what is marriage and what the consent actually stands for? So, this author is convinced that her silence was taken as for her consent. However, in cases of forced marriages, even a grown up girl is forced to give her consent to please her father, even at the dagger point. An incident may be narrated to expose in what scary circumstances such a marriage takes place.
The Story of Anaras Khatoon (14) and Chand Mohammad (75):
According to a report appeared on October 1, 2007, in The Times of India, a renowned English daily, a 14-year-old Muslim girl, called Anaras Khatoon, a resident of a village in the outskirts of Maldah town, West Bengal, has become a social outcast in her village for refusing to live with her 75-year-old husband, who she was forcibly married to. She and her brother Majedur Rahman, who helped her escape, are being hounded by her parents Syed Ali and Latefun Bibi, and the husband Chand Mohammad.
Meanwhile, Anaras and Majedur filed a complaint against their parents with the Maldah police station saying that, on September 26, they woke up Anaras in the midnight, put a knife at her throat and married her off to Chand Mohammad, more than five times older than Anaras Khatoon. Her parents had to surrender in a Maldah court, but got bail on the same day. Then the nightmare of Anaras worsened.
Her parents also filed a counter case against Anaras and Majedur and drove Majedur’s wife from home. Chand Mohammad also filed a case accusing Majedur of kidnapping his wife Anaras Khatoon. While telling the reporters her tale, Anaras broke into tears and said, “I want to return to my home and continue my studies. But there is none to help me and guide me.” She and Majedur temporarily took shelter in a shabby hut in the outskirts of another town English Bazar and Majedur was driving rickshaw to make ends meet.
Anaras also said that, she became horrified when she learned that she was being married off to a man whose youngest child was older than her. She also said that her father Syed Ali was a labourer under Chand Mohammad and the villagers claimed that he had taken a hefty sum from Chand as bride-price. The nikah was performed by a qaji of her village called Hossain Ali, as per Muslim rituals.
On the very next day, Anaras escaped Chand Mohammad’s house and went straight to a police station and lodged a complaint that her parents had kidnapped her and married her off forcibly to a 75-year-old man. Maldah SP D K Mandal came to her help and initiated a police case against her parents, Chand Mohammad and a few others including the qaji. This made her parents furious. Hounded by her parents, she fled with her brother Majedur to English Bazar, with the help of a few of his friends.
The Tradition of Marrying Child Brides to Old Men in Saudi Arabia:
“A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, but sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence throughout her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister. …It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband’s house rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven”, says “Tahrirolvasyleh” by Ayatollah Khomeini, fourth volume 1990
( http://www.homa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89&Itemid=56 ).
This single opinion is more than enough to understand the Muslim outlook towards marrying young girls to adult Muslims. In fact, in pre-Muslim Arabia, women were treated worse than domestic animals. A man had the right to bury his girl child alive, slay his wife or wives, keep her confined in a room and kill her slowly by refusing food and water, divorce her without a moment’s notice by triple talaq or simply by telling her that she looked like his mother. Except the practice of burying a girl child alive, Islam allowed to continue all other traditions of Arabia for oppressing the women-folk for fear of losing popularity among the Bedouins of the deserts. Gradually, with the spread of Islam, these Arabic traditions found a place in other places in the world as well. In this context, the reader may recall slaying of 63 wives by Afzal Khan, just before his military campaign against Raja Shivaji. (see Women in Islam: The Story of Afzal Khan and his 63 Wives).
However, with the passage of time, these vulgar traditions of the uncivilized Arabic society might have gone obsolete. But the Muhammad’s precedence of marrying Ayesha at the age of 52, when Ayesha was child of 6, has set the tradition of marrying child-brides by grown up adults in motion to continue for eternity. One will be astonished to know that when Aisha, the daughter of Abu Bakr, Mohammad’s closest friend, was about 4-5 years old Muhammad had started dreaming of a union with her and he wasted no time in realizing his dreams, in spite of the fact that object of his dreams was a mere child and a daughterly one. Though it is unthinkable for a sane man that a 52 year old man can dream of marrying a 4-5 old child. But it is the truth and the Prophet actually asked for her hand when she was 6, to satiate his lust for Ayesha. But the question remains - Is it normal for an oversexed old man, who had over 9 wives and concubines in his harem, to dream of a union with a 4-5 year old girl?
Many believe that, Muhammad was overly virile and his sexual relationship with Aisha is a special case, which fits his strong need for a larger latitude to satisfy his sexual urge, as is witnessed by his companions: “The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number.” I asked Anas, “Had the Prophet the strength for it?” Anas replied, “We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men).” And Sa’id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).” [Bukhari.1:268]
( http://www.homa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89&Itemid=56 )
Regarding this marriage between Muhammad and Ayesha, the Wikipedia Encyclopedia writes “Muhammad married Aisha, his favorite wife when she was six or seven years old. Islamic scholars state that no age limits have been fixed by Islam for marriage. Children of the youngest age may be married or promised for marriage, although a girl is not handed over to her husband until she is fit for marital congress”. In fact, there is no age limit for marriage for the girls in Saudi Arabia, where, a girl of a few months old may be married off to a man older than her father or grandfather.
Child Marriage in Saudi Arabia:
In his article Saudi Arabia and Why Child Marriage Is Allowed, posted on July 13, 2009, the renowned author Lee Jay Walker has presented a comprehensive picture of child marriage in Saudi Arabia. To begin his
aticle, Walker writes, “The nation of Saudi Arabia is in a flux because this nation is often rebuked for allowing child marriages to take place. However, for Saudi Islamic clerics they justify this on the grounds of what Mohammed did. After all, Mohammed married a child himself and for many Islamic clerics in Saudi Arabia this means that child marriage is sanctioned. Therefore, the morals of Saudi Arabian law and the concepts of Islam appear to be one of confusion?”
“On the one hand the Saudi Arabian legal system of Islamic law supports killing people for adultery and homosexuality. However, on the other hand it is deemed to be Islamic to marry a young child of 8 years of age or 9 years of age, irrespective if the male is 30 years old or 40 years old, or even older. Surely these morals are twisted?”, he adds.
In fact, Saudi Arabia is the birth place of Islam and its Prophet Muhammad and hence it is not possible for it to adopt a legal system that deviates from the Shariah Law, strictly based on Koran and the holy traditions of Prophet Muhammad. “Therefore, this sets a major problem for the conservative Islamic religious leaders in Saudi Arabia because they want to govern society by the laws of Islamic Sharia Law and the Hadiths. If they support raising the age of marriage like the majority of mainly Muslim nations have done, then how does this fit in with the legal system being based on the teachings of Mohammed?”, says Mr Walker.
So, according to Sheikh Abdul Aziz al-Sheikh, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Koran and the Hadiths must be upheld in the legal system of the country including the harsh instructions of Allah to kill all converts from Islam and persecute all other religions. He also believes that marrying young female child brides is consistent with both the teachings and the life of Mohammed. “It is incorrect to say that it’s not permitted in Islam to marry girls who are 15 and younger”, he adds. “In truth, if we look at the teachings of Islam, then clearly Sheikh Abdul Aziz al-Sheikh is correct” says Mr Walker.
As a follow up of the dictates of the holy Koran, Hadiths and the holy tradition of the Prophet, the Saudi legal system, based on Shariah Law, justifies the right of an 8-year-old child to marry a man of 47; a 10-year-old child to marry an 80-year-old man; a 12-year-old girl to marry an 80-year-old man and so on and so forth. We hope to discuss some of these cases in another article.
*****************
Posted by Dr Radhasyam Brahmachari
on June 1 2010. Filed under Persecution by Islam, Women in Islam.
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[...] View post: Nauseating Child-Sex in the Muslim Societies [...]
Dear Muslims and Muslimahs who intend to marry their young daughters to some old filthy rich men for the sake of monetary benefits or other form of priviledges
Do bear in your mind that all these young children are human beings and not commodities or animals. They are innocent children and they have human rights. Can you bear to see them suffering or being tormented physically, mentally and emotionally under the hands of all these old sex perverts and sex maniacs?
Let me ask all those muslims who are fathers of these young girls. As a man, can you imagine what kind of pain and torments your daughters have to go through every night to serve and satisfy all these insane man's sex appetitite? Try to imagine the scene whereby that horrible son-in-law of yours who is much older than you trying his very best to push and insert his big penis into your daughter's vagina repeatedly. Do you think this is fun or nauseating or tormenting? Do you know that the pain is killing her? Have you read the news of a young girl died from a tear in her vagina as a result of such cruelties? How can you push your dear daughters into the lion's den? Are you better than a beast?
Please come to your senses and stop all these evil practices altogether. Let your daughters live life to the fullest. They deserve your love, support and protection.
http://newstime.co.nz/muhammad-aisha-and-quran-65…
13:00 – 18.00 fatwa No. 12708 “… and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”
[al-Talaaq 65:4] …”
“Sharia, Child Brides & Child Abuse” … only following the Khayru-l-Khalq (the Best of Creation) & excellent example (33:21) Muhammad 54 sex with the little girl Aisha 8 (9 lunar years), who played after her sex with dolls … girls in puperty do not play with dolls!!!
I think I should post this comment in many threads so that readers should get a glimpse of some historical background about Islam's violent and mean nature.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam had one common ancestor – Abraham. Muslims believe that too. Islam was established in the 7th century AD. Abraham lived ,according to many Biblical scholars around 2000 BC. Abraham's wife was Sarah and they had no children even in their old age and God promised them a son. They waited for the promise but nothing happened. Sarah finally suggested Abraham to have a child through her handmaiden Hagar. He did that Ishmael was born. But eventually Sarah became pregnant in the old age and bore a son as promised by God and his name was Isaac.
Ishmael and his mother were cast out from the house on Sarah's insistence as Isaac grew older (we can imagine the reason!). The Bible says Ishmael went to the desert(The Bible says God blessed Ishmael's descendants to be a big people).The Bible says Abraham took Isaac for sacrifice (but God didn't allow him to be sacrificed) and later Isaac had many sons and their descendants were later came to be known as Jews.
The rivalry started at that point when Ishmael was ousted – a servant woman's son's hatred towards the legal son .Or, Arabs' hatred (later it was transferred into Islam to perpetuate and to spread) towards Jew and Christians. This explains why the middle east has always been a hot spot down through the centuries. Readers can think and get more insights if they use this Biblical account whenever they see middle east in font page news.
Quran, which was written 2000 years after this account was written, described this incident in a twisted way, that Ismael as the legal son promised by God, and as the son Abraham took to sacrifice before God. Readers can decide. Which would be correct :an account written in 2000 BC or another account of the same incident written after 2000 years, in 700 AD by the descendant who inherited the rivalry, if the incident did really happen?.
It doesn't require much imagination to see how a servant woman's son would claim everything belonged to the legal son, as their father is same person. A thinking person doesn't need any other clue to see the reason behind the centuries old hatred of Islam/Arab towards Jews (and now their state-Israel). Isn't it noteworthy that we can't see Jew's hatred towards Islam?.
I would like to add one more interesting thing from recent history for readers to ponder.
Islam has around one billion followers all around the world. Jews are less than 3-4% of them. As we can see clearly from history Jews were a persecuted race down through the centuries and were scattered all over the world. In 1949 Israel became a state recognized by UN after being scattered from the same place in AD 72 by Titus-II. There are so many Muslim countries and most of them have been comparatively independant nations without being subjugated by a foreign power. This is a preface to the following.
Around 700 people have received Nobel prices so far. Out of this around 175 are Jews by race. Muslims are only 5% of that number (175) .Or, you can count Muslim Nobel laurates numbers by your fingers!.
Many of the founders of the modern world were Jews and you cannot see a single Muslim in the list.
In other words Muslims, with their very huge population contributed nothing compared to Jews who were small in number and scattered and persecuted all over the world, for the making of the modern world.
Can anyone explain this without taking into account the fact that one race was born of a legal wife of noble background and other of a maid(bond) servant?.
Whenever you hear about Muslims' hatred towards Jews (or even Christians) remember that it's the continuation (perpetuated through many means) of the attitude that began when Ishmael was ousted.
Also, remember this clue whenever you read history books and see Jews as contributors to the benefits we enjoy today but don't see any Muslim there.
Mr/Ms Kababa, I believe that some muslims here eg. Mr Raef and Mr leo will be forever grateful to you here, for your detailed explanations of the jealousy of the descendants of the illegitimate son, Ishmael towards the descendants of the legal son/heir, Issac because they simply couldn't admit to the fact that their beloved ancestor, Ishmael is the illegitimate son of Ibrahim and that their beloved Allah's last prophet is a liar, full of jealousy and pride towards Ibrahim's legitimate descendants.
Kababa: There is little or no historical data to support that the Haggarites became latter day Arabs as such, but even if this were the case I still do not see the rational of your explanation, which seems to imply an almost genetic hatred of the Arabs for Jews and Christians (who may be regarded as a "spiritual off-shoot" of Judaism).
I have a real problem with this since:-
1. there is no evidence in Biology or genetics of that sort of genetic "racial memory".
2. There is little or no evidence that the Jews of Arabia were hated by the pagan Arabs pre-Islam (oh, to be sure, there was plenty of strife, but little of the hatred and virulence of the Koran/Ahadith).
Thus, although I think that your post makes some interesting points – and I do agree that the Middle East as portrayed in the Bible is very similar to what is happening today – I cannot accept the main thrust of your argument.
It seems to me that mohammed in his koran and, even more so, Ahadith stirred up all the hatred towards the Jews that we see in varying degrees of virulence from the inception of Islam to the present day.
We can see from reading the Koran, Ahadith and Sunnah that the Jews opposed mo, denying his 'prophethood', not believing in mo's allah, etc.
This it seems was enough to turn mo into an implacable, vicious and homicidal foe to the Jews.
In short, what I am saying is that it was not some "genetic racial memory" of Ishmael that was the problem (I doubt that the pagan Arabs even knew about Ishmael, or cared about the 'slight' if they did), rather it was fomented by mo because the Arabian Jews did not "toe the line" and actively opposed him. This says more about the mentality of Mo than it does about any ancient Jewish-Arab history I suggest.
Islam is a sick disgusting religion.
@jonmc
I didn’t say the hatred was perpetuated only through genetic means.?. It could probably be one of the many means . See what I wrote : ” Whenever you hear about Muslims’ hatred towards Jews (or even Christians) remember that it’s the continuation (perpetuated through many means) of the attitude that began when Ishmael was ousted”.
Yes, there are even better or effective means to perpetuate hatred . Through social means – by prohibiting all kinds of interactions with the other party and portraying the other party as evil through stories and legends and even through religious means. You can see centuries old rivalries kept alive even today through this kind of means in different parts of the world. Interestingly ,you can see such centuries old behaviors even between families and clans in some parts of the world. But when it becomes a part of the written sacred text of a religion it gets a new dimension.
Arabs hatred towards Israel and its result in terms of war was not something happened on a daily basis. It erupts when the attacking party finds it needed or suitable. But the attitude continues even in the absence of war.
You wrote “I doubt that the pagan Arabs even knew about Ishmael”. Before Muhammad there was no Islam and most Arabs were just pagans. But, if they didn’t know the lineage from Ishmael how did Muhammad traced their connection to Abraham through Ishmael?. Obviously Muhammad heard or was taught about his lineage from Ishmael and naturally with it, the hatred Ishmael’s descendants had against Jews. I agree that hatred started to manifest in more violent way once Muhammad made it a religious duty for Muslims to hate Jews.
Yes, all Arabs were not descendants of Ishmael but Muhammad who believed himself as the descendant of Ishmael .
Now regarding “racial memory” again, it’s evident that certain qualities – mathematical strength, reasoning power, innovative genius etc.- are inherited and are strong in certain races and Jews’ superiority in this area is widely acknowledged. Otherwise how do you explain Jews’ contribution to the world considering the fact that they are very small in number comparatively, persecuted and scattered until, in a sense, they were re-united in 1948?. Only biological or genetic factor ,which was better or noble at the beginning of their race can be used here for an explanation. We need to remember here that all other factors were against them to excel. Even now things are not favorable to them.
Just look at Israel, which was founded in 1948 and all their Arab neighbors. Arab population out number them in huge way. Now, compare the development and achievements Israel had during the last 50 years as a nation with Arabs (all nations together) had during the last 200 years?. Arab’s intellectual progress are far behind Israel’s. If you are still not convinced about the strong possibility of genetic superiority of Jews study Six day war and explain how Israel crushed Russian backed huge Arab military which surrounded Israel on three sides (the other side is Mediterranean) in just six days in 1967 ,just 20 years after its founding?.
Christians will add even some more which explain everything perfectly where all the verifiable factors fail to explain in detail – that is, God’s blessings and punishments of His chosen ones.
I can site many stunning proofs – with the help of historical facts that they are special people as described in the Bible. But as this forum is not for such discussion I refrain from doing it.
I'm thoroughly unsure as to how Christians can reconcile the cruel passage of the Bible with peace, humanistic values and equality of all species. This site is bombarded by Sunday preachers, a nauseating phenomenon indeed. There is no justification whatsoever, no matter how you want to whitewashed the OT, Mr kababa, Ms Agracean, and Mr Freedomfighter67.
Coming to the topic discussed above, it's a despicable deed to marry away small young girls on religious ground because the religion licensed such marriage. We human evolved to become mature, and science shed light to the fact that having sex at young age is detrimental to the psychological and physiological buildup of a child. Muhammad obviously had no access of latest scientific research, neither did Moses, David, Abraham and Solomon. These bandit prophets were morally so low and so cruel that I wonder how can 3.5 billion people around the world believed in them.
We are yet to achieve another level of maturity if we take religions so seriously. Stop living in delusional world.
@kenmirzz
I presume that you are an atheist. But please don't assume that atheists are better than all religions.You are wrong. Many millions have been murdered by atheists in the last century. Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot…to name a few. They all were atheists and were motivated to kill by their atheistic ideologies. You may argue that atheism itself did not motivate them to do such things. But you are wrong, if you argue like that. Their motivation was to establish something their atheistic ideology made them BELIEVE. Moreover the impact of atheism on their ideology or them personally made them think that they were not accountable to any higher authority here in this life or in the life after. In effect, atheism made them annihilate tens of millions. Don't try to be smart and white wash foolish athiestic beliefs.
For your information,Christian are NOT required to follow Old Testament laws. Otherwise you would see Christians murder innocents everywhere by following these commands. You haven't seen that and You don't see that. Don't deceive yourself again. I challenge you, you will see only Christians preach everywhere NOT to kill and to love the enemies. That is the plain teaching of the New Testamant laws by which Christians should live. Man has some tendencies which are beastly in nature, to hate or do harm to others but only Christians strongly preach and teach people not to succumb to such natures. It's your fault if you haven't heard Christians preach that basic tenets.Unfortunately people like you who are purposely made themselves blind would not see such realities. Any Church or person inspired by the words of the Bible will only love ,care and NOT kill. I challenge you to prove me wrong. Otherwise stop your third rate nonsense which defy facts.
This is for you info also. Old Testament laws were for the ancient Israel as a one time command or for certain period of time. Even practicing Jews now don't consider themslves under these laws.But it's different in Islam's case,they have a standing order written 1400 years ago for alll Muslims everywhere to follow until Calipha rule is established on earth. That's why they still kill people all over the world.
Know this also. Modern atheistic movement started in the West which was Christian culturally and one can see copy of Christian values in the humanistic values you glorify just like Marxism has many things which was naturally integrated to the ideology as result of the influence of Christian values of the Christian West on the Marx.
@kababa: "You wrote[jonmc] “I doubt that the pagan Arabs even knew about Ishmael”. Before Muhammad there was no Islam and most Arabs were just pagans. But, if they didn’t know the lineage from Ishmael how did Muhammad traced their connection to Abraham through Ishmael?. Obviously Muhammad heard or was taught about his lineage from Ishmael and naturally with it, the hatred Ishmael’s descendants had against Jews. I agree that hatred started to manifest in more violent way once Muhammad made it a religious duty for Muslims to hate Jews."
It is well known that Mohammed talked too and questioned both the Jews and the Christians in the Arabian peninsula (in particular the stories about various Christian monks are in the Hadith).
From this, Mo would have heard the story about Abraham and Isaac – as told by the Torah and Bible.
Mo viewed himself as being the (final) prophet of "The God" (Allah) whom he equated to the YHWH of the Torah and Bible.
He would also have been aware of the Israelite Prophetic traditions, commencing with Moses, and the Christian view that Jesus was the "last Prophet" of Israel (so to speak).
This left Mo with a problem: he was not a Jew, so how to legitimise his prophethood?
Answer: he looked back to a pre-Mosaic time, the time of Abraham and the Abraham/Isaac story. taking the story Mo then did three things:
1. He re-cast the Abraham/Isaac story as Abraham/Ishmael, making Ishmael the focus. (This is why many muslim apologists try to show that Abraham's sacrifice was to be Ishmael not Isaac and why Ishmael features much more than Isaac in both Koran and Ahadith.)
2. He moved the locus of the stories to Arabia – hence Abraham and Ishmael are supposed to have built the Kabba mk1.
3. He cast himself (along with the other Arabs) as a decendant of Abraham through Ishmael – a Haggarite.
You said "Muhammad traced their[Arabs] connection to Abraham through Ishmael?" Not really, he asserted it. I see no evidence of a geneology
that I allow is possible for one of two reasons:
a. It was something "everybody knew".
b. It was something new (as I've suggested) and had no real evidence to back it up; but it did serve the purpose to "legitimise" Mo's claim to prophethood, with the aim of inserting Mo into the Mosaic tradition of Prophethood and thus make his claims more acceptable to the Arabian Jews (in this he failed of course, since they rejected his claims pretty much out-of-hand).
To be frank, I am not going to fully defend my claim that the Arabs of the time were unfamiliar with their alleged Haggarite descent because there is no real evidence one way of another that I've seen, but given that they were Pagan, with gods utterly unrelated to the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", why would they be interested in their putative descent from Hagar/Ishmael?
Only when Mo comes along claiming to be an "Abrahamic prophet" does the Haggarite descent make sense, both in legitimising Mo and in binding the Arabs to him.
—
Thus I re-state my central point: the hatred of the Jews in the Koran and Ahadith was, primarily at least, Mo's invention and did not rely on an "ancestral" hatred. (In fact Kababa, our views on this are not dis-similar, the argument is about mechanism rather than outcome.)
As another point, if this hatred was as strong as you suggest, why were there so many Jewish 'tribes' (more accurately groups/extended families) settled in Arabia? You are imputing a considerable degree of masochism to those groups with your hypothesis. (Masochism? – oae vey!)
—
@kenmizz:"I’m thoroughly unsure as to how Christians can reconcile the cruel passage of the Bible with peace, humanistic values and equality…"
I think the answer to that is that Christians don't. In the Christian viewpoint the New Testament supercedes the Old Testament (Torah) in which the "cruel passages" are found.
To Mr Kababa:
You said:"I presume that you are an atheist. But please don’t assume that atheists are better than all religions.You are wrong. Many millions have been murdered by atheists in the last century. Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot…to name a few."
Tu Quoque will be challenged by another Tu Quoque. Did Catholic Inquisition, Burning of Witches and History of Papacy rang any bell for you? Those were purely motivated by religion. The motto is, convert to Christianity or die. If you hold heretical Un-Christian view, you die too. Islam, another hateful ideology fit Catholicism like a glove. The rest of your argument from the first paragraph can be applied to Christianity as well when the Church ruled supreme. They did advance their belief at the cost of innocent human life.
You said: "For your information,Christian are NOT required to follow Old Testament laws. Otherwise you would see Christians murder innocents everywhere by following these commands. You haven’t seen that and You don’t see that. "
Your historical knowledge is defective. Since we were borne in an era where Christian terrorism has subsided, that doesn't mean it never happen before. Please ask how the Hindus in India, apart from having to deal with the Muslims, have to suffer under Christians. Sometimes, as a human, empathy is a good virtue, mind you. Out of your blind hatred against another hate ideology, you conveniently ignore the bare fact about your own hate hate ideology. The Abrahamic faiths are full with hatred.
You said: "This is for you info also. Old Testament laws were for the ancient Israel as a one time command or for certain period of time. Even practicing Jews now don’t consider themslves under these laws"
Come on, I am chuckled at this whitewashed effort. I can give credit to the New Testament for some of its beautiful advice( the same can be said to the beautiful advice contained in Buddhist scripture or the teaching of Confucius and LaoTzu). Not more than that is required. In fact, the Abrahamic concept of hell and heaven is very similar, those Unbelievers who died in different faiths will be doomed to eternal hell fire. This is the core of Abrahamic teachings, be it Judaism, Christianity or Islam.
As for Christian values, please do not appropriate the contribution of enlighten Deists ( or Atheists) thinkers that lead to the scientific and humanistic revolution starting from 17th century onwards. Those thinkers were in the process of breaking away from Christianity, as pious as Galileo and Newton might be, these two scientists were certainly not favored by the Church at all. When later opportunity arise, with proper condition for freedom of expression crept in, most scientists broke away from religion. The same circumstances went with freethinkers of Islam, though orthodoxy reinforce their authority later and silent them down.
If you believe that God saw it fit to institutionalize a ruthless tribal laws among the Israelites at one time, it's not improbable for you to accept new tribal law in the future, especially when the advent of Jesus Christs second coming is much waited by all, Christians and Muslims alike. Another funny myth indeed.
@kenmirzz
I can only feel sorry for your lack of intellect and reasoning power. You are having the maturity only of a 15 year old.
“Please ask how the Hindus in India, apart from having to deal with the Muslims, have to suffer under Christians”. This shows how ignorant and naïve you are. You don’t know anything about India and the world. You don’t know what India was and how Christians especially missionaries contributed to the development of India. I challenge you to name just one Christian group which made Hindus suffer. You have to accept it if you are a man worth a penny .Otherwise stop your stupidity.
But almost everyday you can read Hindu religious fanatics (who are inspired by Hindu texts) attack Christians all over India. Even American State department recently included India with countries where minorities are persecuted. Search and read if you have brain.
But nobody hears Hindus or Muslims persecuted in Europian nations or in America which are Christian majority nations. You are saying Christians persecute Hindus in the Hindu majority nation India where Hindu fanatics like RSS, Bajrangdal roam around everywhere!. Do you have working rain?.
Yes, Catholic church has done atrocities in the past. How can you equate it with Christianity’s fault?. They were breaking all Biblical commands which they were supposed to follow. But you equate their faults with Christianity’s fault. You always use faulty logic. You are prejudiced and lack discerning power.
Again,my challenge can you prove the existence of any Christian church or group at present or in the past any where which did atrocities by the inspiration of the Bible and Christianity. Or stop your nonsense.
Once more, you are sick if you cannot accept the challenge and refute me factually and continue with your rubbish.
@Kababa
For your information hindus suffered more at the hands of Muslims than the Christains.
Muslims Massacred hundreds of thousands of Indians for refusing to convert. Muslims destroyed untold number of temples built mosques on top temples and also destroyed centers of learning in india and destroyed many books of science.
Mr Kababa, please bear in mind that I’m not here to defend the Hindus or attacking Christianity. However, I’m here to stop you all Sunday preachers from spouting ludicrous unicorn myth as if you are all innocent pure baby. However, in order to satisfy your craving for answer, here you go:
http://www.exminister.org/Fegel-missionaries-are-colonialists.html
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21962463/CHRISTIAN-MISSIONARY-ATROCITIES
As for your examples of the tolerance practiced by Western nation, that’s a blessing indeed because mostly of the adoption of secular humanistic values that have nothing to do with Christianity at all. If these nations do not separate the Church from the State, do expect Inquisition-like policy as before where the basic principle of justice will be neglected just as similar as in the Sharia-infested nations.
Please stop this terrible joke, can you? You guys are not innocent as you alleged to be. As long as you cling to Abrahamic absurd faiths, don’t you dare to claim your innocence like a dove. Please do not insult humanity intelligence.
Dear kenmirzz,
I really enjoy reading your posts and I'm learning a lot. Your in-depth knowledge reconfirms my belief that one has to be an ex-muslim to debate a muslim effectively and make him leave Islam. Only an ex-muslim understands the psychology of a muslim having lived that life himself or herself and will be able to tell him why Islam is not a religion but only a cult which needs to be rejected. Other people can make simple comments but to get into an argument with a Muslim is not going to yield any desirable outcome. Many people just want to enjoy the freedom of expression, jump into the band wagon, read some thing in the internet, cut and paste silly things and in the process they only fight among themselves and make a fool of themselves. In stead they can effectively make their voices heard on general topics such as Politics, History, Geography etc. or the topics they know well enough to make an effective statement or an essay, which will be in tune with the topic of discussion and also in line with the purposes and goals of this site.
I really appreciate the two links that you've provided above. My humble request to every reader of this site to click the above links and read the articles. This will make you understand why some of our Hindu readers of this site get very touchy and start attacking Christianity when they get a little chance, which they should not be allowed to do in this site any way to begin with. Just like you're getting impatient with the Sunday preachers, they are also provoked by the Christian propaganda which only end up in unpleasant and ugly postings. I hope better sense will prevail in future.
Regarding the second link, the article was incomplete. In the index I saw many more countries such as Burma, Thailand, Vietnam, China, India and also the conclusion but they are not there in the article. Kindly let me know where can I find it.
If Ibnsahr and santiago29 are reading these posts, I want to convey this message to them. By allowing kenmirzz to post these two links above, FFI Editors have proved beyond any reasonable doubt that they are in deed secular and they are not pro-Christian. I'm sorry for my pre-mature observation and I would like to withdraw that statement I made earlier in another thread.
Mr Kenmirzz, you said, "I’m thoroughly unsure as to how Christians can reconcile the cruel passage of the Bible with peace, humanistic values and equality of all species. This site is bombarded by Sunday preachers, a nauseating phenomenon indeed. There is no justification whatsoever, no matter how you want to whitewashed the OT, Mr kababa, Ms Agracean, and Mr Freedomfighter67."
Mr Camels, are you greater than my loving Creator God? How do you know that Christians can't reconcile any OT passages?
To Mr Ayodhyarama, I think the second link provide us with a brief description and preview of the actual book, or e-book. I'm afraid you have to purchase the book in order to read all the details therein. I'm not as knowledgeable as you think I am, but merely a truth seeker. I abhor someone who applied distinct standards for the same pattern of event. A massacre is still a massacre, no matter whoever commit it, either Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists or Christians. The Sunday preachers here implement different standards for OT while unleashing their blind attack against other hate ideology, an absurdity of the highest order.
To Ms Agreacean, just read the link I provide and stop claiming to be innocent as dove.
Okay, can we get to the topic as discussed in the article? As far as I remember, Umar Al-Khattab, the second caliphs of Islam did marry the daughter of Ali Bin Abi Talib, Umm Khulthum, when she was barely 4 year old. That's obnoxious deed, indeed.
kenmirzz: I pity you .
How can a person with little or no common sense contribute anything worthwhile to this forum except making noise. You didn't accept my challenge. You are neither a man nor a woman. I challenged you to prove your OWN claim by naming a christian terrorist or militant group which gets it's inspiration from the Bible. You couldn't. You can't and you will never . You put two links to two websites which accuses christians. Know now that I can give hundreds of links which logicaly refute Islam's and Hinduism's claims and beleifs by directly quoting from their sacred texts and their religious acts. You are pathetic. You need to learn how to be a man by acepting the challenge to prove your own claims and answer it. You are not intelligent enough to understand your own folly.
You make claims and play cheap to circumvent it. You are not a man.
If you try to refute christianity or Bible by pointing out the mistakes of its followers(Christians) you are using faulty logic and thereby you prove yourself brainless. The Bible asks the Christians to follow the law of Love, nothing else. Old Testament was for the ancient Isarel and not for christians to follow. Jesus established an new Testament(a new law/covenant) for Chrsitains to follow. Any sane person know that if an Old law is replaced with a New law he is no more under the old. People who lack brain power to understand even such a simple thing continue to make rubbish on this forum.
If you are a man,I challenge you again to FACTUALLY prove your claim by showing specific incidents where Christians committed atrocities by the inspiration of the Bible. If you can't, STOP YOUR rubbish.
Any man with any brain will assess the qualities of religions by looking at their positive contributions to the world and also the damage they have done or are doing to humanity with their teachings.
Islam and Hinduism have made no tangible contributions at all – except ,of course some 'wonderful' advices .But they have encouraged their followers to do atrocities as part of their religious duty and still are doing . Open the news papers and read from the pages yourselves for facts.
If any person in this forum is an Indian he should know more than any other that he is using english as the contribution of Christian missionaries who did educational and medical work by the inspiration of the Bible. I CHALLNEGE ANYONE TO REFUTE ME FACTUALLY. While Hinduism,which has been in India for millinia, has only put the millions in darkness Christian missionaries from Europe and America under the inspiration of the Bible came to India and did the works of light.
Yes,chrsitians have done many atrocities. But ALL such acts were in direct contradiction to the Biblical command of 'love thy neighbor'. When someone tries to put the blame of christians' atrocities , which they did by breaking the Biblical commands, on the Bible or Christianity he proves to the world that he is a pervert who twists facts and logic. I see so many such people on this thread. Pure perverts -who while enjoy the benefits of Christian's contributions bash them from behind.
I can say very well now that I am not using anything worthwhile as the contribution -direct or indirect-of Islam and Hinduism. I challenge any Christian basher can say that about Christianity?.
Ayodyarama: you are a mean person- a typical hindu without a back bone and without any sense of values or sense of what is wrong and what is right. You appease whoever you like without weighing facts. You beleive you have the facts. Present facts while argue.
Islam should be defeated. While Hindus and atheists should be welcome to that task though they constitute only a weak force as their arguements are always self defeating and self projecting.They make more smoke but little fire. Physically and materially also their conributions are negligible. Hindus in India are the greatest friends of Islam in terms of numbers. Look at India and see the facts . Even though India has suffered a lot from Islam still the majority of Hindus consider Muslims as brothers.They don't react or do anything to defeat Islam. They know they can't do anything while many of them consider it profitable to be friends with Muslims. Fault is with Hinduism.
While a good number of Christians are also indifferent to the problem of Islam majority of Christians are now becoming more and more aware of the dangers of Islam.Christianity has a worldwide reach unlike Hinduism which is confined to India and thriving under western material bessings.
I never wanted this forum to be a place to make comments like this. As the presence of Hindu fanatics,who are as dangerous and cunning as Islamists, make known their presence here and bash Christiainty I will react. Either they should stop bashing Christianity or leave this forum for good.
@kababa:
Thank you for the nice compliments and your beautiful assessment about me. I'll enjoy this certificate till I die. You're truly following the Biblical command of "Love thy neighbor" and what Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would like to be done by others". Pl. remember what ever you said about another person only reflects who you are.
ayodhyarama: I apologize uconditionally.I didn't live upto what I was supposed to follow. Many times I fail especially when I go through this website. Comments ,though factual or reasoned, are most times made under pressure of time and strong emotions and as a result unwanted words are used.I am not justifying my negative words and comments which should have been avoided. My apologies again.
Spoken( or rather worte ) like a true christian indeed! Hate everyone else who does not believe in christ from the bottom of the heart and keep sprouting biblical asininities and say love thy neighbor! because jesus says so, Just supposing a few hindus trouble a few christians then how does that make all hindus spineless? Your emotional maturity of a 10 year old is typical of biblical god who gets angry, jealous and creepy at the drop of a hat and is ready to kill. WHo said to you that OT is no longer applicable today?God spoke to you? Are you hearing god whispering? Take the medication regularly
hi kababa,
before becoming the preacher of your faith and defending it, you should yourself have some qualities..
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23, New International Version)
Though content may be there but where is love,patience,kindness and gentleness in your comments.
From your comments it seems you have some of Seven deadly sins.
# acedia (acedia/discouragement)
# ira (wrath) (against those who speak against bible)
# superbia (pride) ( of your factual knowledge)
It seems ayodhyarama knows more about gospels than you…
Have fruits of spirit and be a true christian. Otherwise you will b a false prophet like it is mentioned…
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them.A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. (Matthew 7:15–23).
Do lectio divina on the passage and u will understand what i mean.
Shalom(peace be with u).
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Good. I wish I could have a sweet young girl as a bride. I hope you "good people" are defeated.
Btw: read the hebrew in Deuteronomy. Ba'al. Guess what it means, guess who it refers to.
Study Deuteronomy 22 28-29 carefully. The hebrew.
The God of Deuteronomy is not on your side.
I hope that he lifts this yoke of women's rights from men.
hahaha……………….what i will say,In christinity there was nothing to say abot marriage because ,prophet isha
was an unmarried prophet,our mohammed has many wivies,wish i also follow his footsteps.