Can Islam be reformed?

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17 Responses

  1. Vijai Singh says:

    Reforming Islam is trying to make sense out of complete stupidity. Good luck with that!

  2. Sane James says:

    A complete ignorance of conditions in actual Islamic countries is not an asset. A visit to to one or two will give you a greater perspective. Some debate with Muslims will also teach you things you may not be aware of.

    Nothing you’re saying is a mystery to the people who write on this forum (or read these articles), you’re adding little new or significant – your message is better delivered to those who should begin to question Islam, and this means both Muslims and non-Muslims. Belligerence isn’t the best approach for this.

    If you fee so strongly then write some public articles and engage in debate. Even online debate is fine for the lessons it will bring.

    The issue to stopping the spread of Political, Social and Legal Islam is really the lack of cultural confidence and social cohesion in the West, our weakness is more of an issue than any strength that Islam possesses.

  3. Face_The_Truth says:

    “You’re preaching to the choir, and want to demonstrate how smart you are and how much you know.”

    No, I don’t think I am that “smart” as you seem to be since you claim to have visited many — if not all — Muslim-majority-countries on earth when, in fact, I DO NOT like to visit any Islamic country at all.

    What I write in my posts is hardcore truth.

    I have NOTHING to demonstrate that I am “smarter” than anyone when anyone can verify on his/her own what I write about.

    World’s 5-10% Muslims wage violent Islamic Jihad on non-believers whereas world’s 90-95% Muslims morally support Islamic Jihad against non-believers.

    Conversion and subjugation of non-believers are “Holy” tenets of Islam.

    So, those 90-95% world’s Muslims who do not wage violent military Islamic Jihad — as prescribed for all Muslims in al’Quran — against non-believers do, in fact, engage in “Love-Jihad” or “Marriage-Jihad” in order to convert non-believing females into Islam for the purpose of increasing Muslim populations.

    LINK

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/11/india-muslim-murders-his-hindu-girlfriend-for-refusing-to-convert-to-islam-and-marry-him

  4. Sane James says:

    You’re preaching to the choir, and want to demonstrate how smart you are and how much you know.

    And I have read some of these Tarbiyah guides, they say exactly what I claim. But I assume that’s not what you are disagreeing with.

    I have actually been to nearly every Muslim majority country on Earth, certainly to every one in the Middle East. Most Muslims there will have no idea what you’re referring to, except for a vague awareness that has permeated society. But they certainly cannot engage you in detailed debate, though they can argue. They’re encouraged to submit and accept, not question and investigate.

    Baying mobs are not acting out of rational, critical aforethought – they’re following a herd mentality. There is a social penalty for non-compliance with the herd. It only takes a small number to incite and lead, and the command to defend Islam is inherent in it from the beginning. It is a negative aspect of the ‘religion’, or cult of Mohammed.

    Q9:121 And the believers should not all go out to fight. Of every troop of them, a party only should go forth

    Not all Muslims are required to act out violent Jihad, hence the “small minority” that does. The concepts of Fard ‘ayn and Fard kifaya are not for the average Muslim to concern himself with, the Imam who subtly manages the community deals with these necessities.

  5. Face_The_Truth says:

    “However, most Muslims (as far as I can determine) are not. It’s not a part of their Tarbiyah (religious education), they genuinely see Mohammed as a Jesus-figure and Islam is taught as being a religion of peace.”

    The above sentence is NOT at all true in reality in any Muslim-majority country on earth.

    Here I cite just ONE out of hundreds of other real-time examples of real and true “Islam” that can be cited.

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    ‘A rumour shaped and vented the anger of the Muslims in the neighboring villages against the “Hindu” community.

    This maddened Muslim mob needn’t have bothered.

    All they needed to do was appeal to Facebook, and the offending post, if it actually existed, would have been deleted immediately.’

    LINK

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/11/bangladesh-muslims-burn-loot-vandalize-hindu-houses-over-rumor-that-hindu-criticized-muhammad-on-facebook
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    So, world’s Muslims behave as “moderate” only when they are minority in any country on earth.

    When Muslims become majority, all Muslims act like savages in one form or another as I have quoted in my previous post below by citing original Islamic al’Quran.

    Furthermore, only 5-10% of any given population in any non-Muslim-majority country actually joins the military force(s).

    So, SIMILARLY, only 5-10% of world’s Muslims act violently in accordance with prescribed Islamic Jihad against all non-believers of fictitious Allah and fictitious Allah’s last messenger while the remaining 90-95% world’s Muslims morally support — without violently waging — Islamic jihad against non-believers of fictitious Allah and fictitious Allah’s last messenger anyway.

  6. Sane James says:

    People on this forum are well aware of the negative, violent aspects of the Quran, perhaps more so than you. However, most Muslims (as far as I can determine) are not. It’s not a part of their Tarbiyah (religious education), they genuinely see Mohammed as a Jesus-figure and Islam is taught as being a religion of peace.

    The less savoury aspects only appear when the community receives an Imam who wants to spread the Dar al Islam into the Dar al Harb – but he does so subtly. Most Muslims you will talk to are ignorant of what you’ve quoted here.

    The issue is not so much a strength within Islam, but loss of cultural confidence and orientation in the West.

  7. Face_The_Truth says:

    Can anyone please tell me how original ideology of Islam can be reformed?

    The only way to reform Islam is vast majority of world’s Muslims self-consciously rejecting being Muslims anymore — both culturally and theologically, which is literally as impossible as the Sun rising on the Western horizon every morning!

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    There are at least 109 verses in al’Quran that command world’s Muslims to engage in Islamic Jihad warfare against the Infidels; they are unambiguous in their meaning.

    Here are a representative handful:

    2:191-193: “And kill them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you; persecution is worse than slaughter. But do not fight them by the holy mosque until they should fight you there; then, if they fight you, kill them — such is the recompense of unbelievers, but if they give over, surely Allah is all-forgiving, all-compassionate. Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is Allah’s; then if they give over, there shall be no hatred except for evildoers.”

    4:89: “They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore do not take friends and protectors from them, until they emigrate in the way of Allah; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and kill them wherever you find them; do not take any of them as friend or helper.”

    5:33: “This is the recompense of those who fight against Allah and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off; or they shall be banished from the land. That is a degradation for them in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement.”

    8:12: “When thy Lord was revealing to the angels, ‘I am with you; so confirm the believers. I shall cast terror into the unbelievers’ hearts; so smite above the necks, and smite every finger of them!”

    8:39: “Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is Allah’s entirely; then if they give over, surely Allah sees the things they do.”

    8:60: “Make ready for them whatever force and strings of horses you can, to strike terror thereby into the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides them that you know not; Allah knows them. And whatsoever you expend in the way of Allah shall be repaid you in full; you will not be wronged.”

    9:5: “Then, when the sacred months are over, kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; Allah is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.”

    9:29: “Fight those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not practice the religion of truth, even if they are of the People of the Book — until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.”

    9:111: “Allah has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of Allah; they kill, and are killed; that is a promise binding upon Allah in the Torah, and the Gospel, and the Koran; and who fulfils his covenant truer than Allah? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him; that is the mighty triumph.”

    LINK

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/11/hugh-fitzgerald-muslim-placenames-seeds-of-divisiveness-in-the-quran-and-the-american-constitution

    LINK

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/10/news-from-mexico-a-vibrant-muslim-community

    LINK

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/11/hugh-fitzgerald-john-hamed-jr-and-the-misrepresentation-of-islam

    LINK

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/11/hugh-fitzgerald-columbus-and-his-muslim-connection

    LINK

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/11/hugh-fitzgerald-john-hamed-jr-barry-fell-and-the-backdating-of-islam-in-america

    LINK

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/11/hugh-fitzgerald-does-islam-have-a-surprisingly-complicated-relationship-with-terrorism

    LINK

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/10/hugh-fitzgerald-the-photographer-shows-the-true-face-of-islam-part-4

    LINK

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/10/hugh-fitzgerald-the-photographers-snapshots-islams-rejection-of-homophobia-and-antisemitism-part-3

    LINK

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/10/hugh-fitzgerald-snapshots-from-a-muslim-photographer-islam-rejects-racism-part-2

    LINK

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/10/hugh-fitzgerald-snapshots-from-a-muslim-photographer-part-1

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  8. Sane James says:

    I suspect that the “moderate” Islam that everyone wants is the Islam that was essentially spent after its violent history and thus a peaceful folk religion at the time the Caliphate was abandoned. After the oil revenues revitalised the Islamic world Islam then had the funds to be something other than moderate.

    The “sick man of Europe” was a peaceful man, but he was only moderate because he lacked the energy and funds to be otherwise.

  9. ME says:

    Those western progressives who pin their hopes on a Christian-style Islamic “reformation” should consider that Martin Luther was an anti-jewish religious bigot and the Dar al-Islam has already produced many of those down the centuries. Luther’s reformation spawned numerous protestant sects and subsects whose members were every bit as eager to burn and otherwise brutally dispose of “heretics” as any Roman Catholic inquisitor. Protestant sectarians who emigrated America to escape persecution eventually gave us the Salem witch trials. The Roman Catholic practice of selling “indulgences”, one of Luther’s main bugbears, has found its modern protestant analogue in charlatan US TV evangelists promising their target audiences that sending in a big “donation” will ensure them a place in heaven – as well as countless quack religious “healers” who will cure blindness for the entrance fee into an auditorium and sufficient “faith” in those upon whom hands are “laid”.

    Islamic “reform”/jihad movements like ISIS are nothing new in Islam’s history. In fact they have been a perpetual feature of the “Islamic world” for the past 14 centuries. All that has changed is the technology available to the present-day counterparts of movements like the Almohads. Modern communications, especially the internet, has allowed what would, in previous times, have been groups operating virtually independently of each other separated by hundreds and thousands of miles to coordinate their activities on a global scale.

    What western commentators mean by a “reformed” Islam is obviously one that permanently dispensed with the system of law and government known as sharia and reduced to a religion of personal belief and observance such as modern Christianity (more or less) is. This requires, for example, Muslims accepting AS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE (as opposed to temporary expediency) that the Quranic punishment of flogging “a hundred stripes”for what the Quran defines as “illegal” sexual intercourse (zina) has no place anywhere in the world – EVER. How likely is this considering the appalling eternal torments promised to those who reject a single one of Allah’s divine and eternally applicable commandments?

  10. Walter Sieruk says:

    The title of this article “Can Islam be reformed ?” is a very important question. Some people actually believe Islam can be “reformed.” For example , Lt. General Michael T. Flynn in his book THE FIELD OF FIGHT he takes the stand “for a complete reformation of the Islamic religion.” page 132. General Flynn ,no doubt, is sincere and really believes in that idea. Which such an ambitious goal it’s important to first define what a “reformation of Islam actually is. Maybe a “reformation of Islam” had already be done ? As in that it has occurred and is now accomplished. As strange and outlandish as this statement sounds this is explained in the following essay.
    On the topic of a reformation within Islam, a very different yet possible valid and true view on this had been explain by the Christian, Nabeel Qureshi ,who was in the past was a Muslim .He wrote in his book which is entitled ANSWERING JIHAD wrote about the suggestion “that Islam needs a reformation .What they may not realize is that radical Islam is the Islamic reformation. This might sound shocking, but consider: Just as the Protestant Reformation was an attempt to raze centuries of Catholic tradition and return to the canonical text, so radical Islam is an attempt to raze centuries of traditions of various schools of Islamic thought and return to the canonical text of the Quran and Muhammad’s life. This desire to return to the original form of Islam can be seen not only in the words of Sayyid Qutb, but also in his method. He focused almost entirely on references to the Quran. it is true also of the Muslim Brotherhood and ISIS today, whose publications and proclamations are punctuated by references to the Quran and Hadith literature. Radical Muslim organizations are explicit in their aim to reform Islam.” page 75. Further on pages 79,80 the author makes his case clear by writing that “Radical Islam is the Islamic reformation . The endeavor to modernize Islam and make it relevant to the twenty -first century is called progressive Islam. Progressive Muslim thought leaders, though few in number and limited in influence are present and are working to recreate Islam’s religious framework from within. Indeed, that is what it would take for Islam to become devoted to peace – not reformation but reimagination. “

  11. Jon MC says:

    @A.H.
    You make a good point and I was guilty of being inexact in my language, I should have written: “The Christian reformation was an attempt, in the view of its primary proponents, Luther and Calvin, to return to – or recover – the original teachings of the Gospels …”
    My point, just to clarify, was that the protestant reformation (whatever one may think of it) was a radical reformation in that it’s aim was to go “to the root” of Christianity.
    If you have a similar reformation within Islam you get Wahhab, Qutb, Maududi and – in all probability – Al-Qaeda and ISIL; not a “moderate” or “Modern” Islam at all.

    Your article link was a most interesting read.

  12. Sane James says:

    Another interesting point you make, ECAW. I was reading through the Reliance last night and was wondering about the authorship.

    As it is Islam cannot be changed, and to change it would be to destroy what it is right now. That in itself is not a bad thing.

    Islamic consensus on what constitutes Sharia does tell us that all things “must be evaluated and judged according to the comprehensive methodology of Sacred Law, by virtue of which it is and remains the final and universal moral code for all peoples until the end of time.”

    All peoples/End of time. That’s a far reaching statement to make, but does indicate a profound, dogmatic unwillingness to change.

  13. Walter Sieruk says:

    Can Islam be reformed ? The answer to that question is that Islam is actually unchangeable when it stands as it’s originally designed and meant be .That being based on this “holy book” the Quran. For the Quran instructs in the use of violence and killing for the advancement of Islam, as seen ,for example in Sura 5:33. 9:5,111,123. 47:4. . This jihad of Islam has no limit to a specific place and time. Which in in strong contrast to the Bible. As in the Old Testament book of Joshua . For as disturbing as the account is to read it’s recorded in that book that the violence and killing was ,very ,much, limited to a specific place [area of land] and time an no further the meant to be engaged in .Unlike Islam with its militant jihad . With Islam and the idea of reforming it, the very best with may realistically hoped for would be a watered down diluted mild form of “Islam ” with is not violent. Which would be in great contrast to non-watered down undiluted Islam which contains much deadly violence

    Furthermore, the very idea of the folly of even trying to “reform Islam” is ,somewhat , a reminded in the what is written in the Bible. For the Bible in Ecclesiastes 1:15. which informs the reader “That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.” [K.J.V.]

  14. A.H. says:

    Dear Jon MC,

    You wrote:
    “The Christian reformation was an attempt to return to the original teachings of the Gospels and to do away with the accretions (such as “indulgences”) that had come into being.”

    Indulgences still exist in the Church of the ages. Here below you will find an interesting link.

    http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2012/03/how-not-to-defend-the-reformation-why-protestants-need-the-antichrist-2/

  15. Jon MC says:

    I would argue that it depends on what we mean by “reform”.
    The Christian reformation was an attempt to return to the original teachings of the Gospels and to do away with the accretions (such as “indulgences”) that had come into being.
    My point in stating this is that often in western usage the use of the word “reform” carries with it this undertone: that the intended action will return whatever it is to its original and better form, or will repair it in some way.
    (All to often, of course, “reform” is used as a cypher for “change”, but no-one wants to be called a “changist” – one might ask why.)
    In those terms Islamic reform is possible: the reform or renewal initiated by Wahhab and others is its latest manifestation.
    What is generally meant by “reform” in relation to Islam is “moderation” or “modernisation” and here I completely agree: such a reform (though I would prefer the more straightforward “modernisation” or “moderation”) is impossible, as Sane James states, such a change (another honest word choice) is directly forbidden by Islam itself

  16. ECAW's blog says:

    Mind you there is this from the appalling section O on acts which entail apostasy:

    o8(14) “to deny the obligatory character of something which by the consensus of Muslims is part of Islam”

    And we know what the penalty is for that:

    o8.1 “When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed”.

  17. ECAW's blog says:

    It is unfortunate, and confusing, that the translater of the Reliance of the Traveller, Nu Ha Mim Keller, used the same title for his book as that of the original mediaeval work which in fact only occupies sections E to O.

    Section B is Keller presenting quotes from various later Islamic scholars. B7.1 identifies the author of the four necessary integrals of consensus as Shaikh Abdul Wahab Khallaf who was a scholar of fiqh working in Egypt in the middle of the 20th century. The whole of B7, including the quote above appears to be from him.

    https://archive.org/stream/RelianceOfTheTraveller1/Reliance%20of%20the%20traveller1#page/n0/mode/1up

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