Debate- M.F. Rahman vs. Ali Sina
This is reproduced from the original faithfreedom.org site. To read that, open https://web.archive.org/web/20150112050524/http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/Rahman.htm
Sun, 6 Mar 2005
Dear Ali Sina, Greetings. I have read a bit of your responses to Yamin Zakaria who has furnished me with your address.
It may surprise you to hear me say that you have a basis to believe as you do since Muslims by their behaviour have neither endeared themselves nor sought to present their religion peacefully.
While debating has its merits, it proves nothing to either party. Being convinced of our position we neither listen nor are heard by the other. Confessions are seized upon and opportunities taken over trivialities. I have written a book (The Books of God From Genesis To The Final Testament) which seeks to reconcile the scriptures and many Muslims have protested what they see as unkindness to ourselves. Many Christians have appreciated the frankness of the work. I shall be extremely grateful if you would kindly agree to read this work critically and if you wish, to respond to it privately or publicly.
If you agree, I shall immediately send you a complimentary e-copy for your personal use which you may print out for ease of reading. Your early response will be appreciated. mfr.
Dear Mr. Rahman,
Although I am overwhelmed with work, which is basically reading and writing, I will be glad to take a look at your book.
However I also invite you to read my articles that are available in my site and if you think I am mistaken please write a rebuttal that I would gladly publish.
Dear Ali Sina,
Mon, 7 Mar 2005
As promised, I have visited your site and read the article “A Letter to Mankind”.
On the face of it, you seem dedicated to your cause and sincere in your own convictions.
I may or may not address that letter in time. For the moment, permit me to address a bit of the below where you respond to Sister Rheem.
Your pragmatism in pursuing the dismantling of Islam is deliberate and unemotive and were your premises not flawed, may even be deemed admirable.
Your own experience with Islam and your own view of Muslims in general are not universally shared. The reality is that despite the very bad behaviour of a fringe element, Muslims are not as you describe nor is Islam the evil religion you portray it.
And most of all, your assessment of Muhammad is distinctly in the historical micro minority.
If you do indeed believe as you have stated, then you are technically not lying even though what you purvey is malevolently mendacious and weighted with theoretical accusations that cannot be “disproved” to those who are already converted to your views.
The recitation of a torrent of defamatory propaganda cannot be stemmed by protesting letters which only serve as fuel for further diatribes which I am sure delights you.
Unfortunately, many Muslims though of the view that you are lying will feel badly as you would admit were you not committed to using protests advantageously, and few can disregard an insistently barking dog to use your own _expression.
To such I would commend your advice since Islam is True : “If Islam is true and if it is from God, no one can extinguish its light and all my efforts will be frustrated.” That is my own philosophy.
Few can tell a fraudulent diagnosis designed to disturb.
We both know that anything can be “proven” with out-of-context quotes but you also know that appeals to authority carry weight to the unsuspecting.
And of course, without an independent panel of adjudicators, no one will ever successfully “refute” you on your own turf.
Your reference to a growing army of apostates is also deliberately misleading as you would admit under other circumstances. That is entirely relative. But compared to the tidal wave of converts to Islam annually in the west and acknowledged by all population stats, how large is your “army” really?
Your assertions again, are not provable, yet you make them. If Allah is not The God, who do you say is?
Your “facts” are not universally agreed.
At the end of the day, your use of scare tactics is amusing. What is the “Clear” Truth, Religion and Deity that you offer to others with mathematical precision?
It is amusing that you speak of your mother so imprecisely. Are you really unaware whether she is aged or dead? And why do you believe that age would stop her profession? Is that for your personal consolation or merely a way to deflect the one you have injured by your agenda?
I am suspicious of your claims of apostasy if you unabashedly can say to a Muslim : “Muhammad is nobody to us.” As to your assertions against him, the bar of history disagrees completely unless one read only Evangelical Christoganda. Your “ifs” against him are simply mendacious speculative slanders. And you probably believe that Dante was a Prophet by your placement of Muhammad. Such assertions are merely designed to disturb Muslims and to appeal to detractors. Only the foolish would dignify them with response. Your agenda to demonise The Prophet will bring you appropriate rewards.
How nice of you to be concerned about the extinction of all the Muslims. But let not your heart be troubled on their account. If they are errant as you assert, your god should convert them if you believe in him. Though from a minority of one to 1.2 billion and growing, Somebody up there likes them, I would say, despite their shortcomings.
And if you believed in God, you would also understand that He is in Omnipotent control of every minutiae of detail. Your efforts will neither aid nor obstruct Him. They will simply ensure the destiny He has Written for you.
Dear Mr. Rahman
Thank you for reading my site, even if only two articles out of hundreds. Believe it or not I receive protesting letters from Muslims who have not read a word but only have seen the pictures in the Gallery. This is enough for them to form an opinion and express it. When it comes to reading, Muslims are not that great. The entire Arab world consumes fewer books than Israel alone.
However, had you read a few more pages, you’d have come to see that my criticism of Islam has nothing to do with my experience with it and my views of Muslims. My criticism is directed at Muhammad, what he said and what he did. What Muslims do is the result of following Muhammad. The cause of the problem is Muhammad. The problem must be resolved from its roots.
You say Islam is not the evil religion that I portray it. If this is a statement of facts and not a mere biased opinion of a believer you must be able to prove it. I have proven that Islam is very evil and I have offered to remove my site should anyone disprove my claims. I have also made a monetary offer to sweeten the deal. That might not be of much interest to you but nonetheless I thought I should mention it. More importantly I have offered to remove this site should anyone prove my accusations against Muhammad are unfounded. Here is the challenge.
So if you disagree with my views about Islam and my assessment of Muhammad, I invite you to read my accusations and refute them one by one. I will remove the accusations that you successfully refute and once you refute all of them I will remove my site, leaving the home page active in which I would acknowledge having been guided by you to the right path and will gladly cash out $50,000 dollars from my house equity and give it to you in token of appreciation.
Whether Islam is fraudulent or my diagnosis of it; whether it is a light of God that can’t be extinct or a satanic cult that can’t stand the light of truth, and whether I am just a barking dog or a harbinger of freedom; are things that I invite you to explore with me in an online debate. Do you think that I am quoting the Quran “out of context”? In that case you are welcome to show us it’s right context.
You want a panel of adjudicators? I have no problem with that. Provided we do not choose a Muslim or a Muslim sympathizer, I agree to invite a panel of adjudicators consisting of journalists, writers, politicians or whoever.
There is however one “minor” problem and that is the safety of the adjudicators. We know that Muslims are in the habit of assassinating anyone who ruffles their feathers. This is something they learned from their prophet. Muhammad ordered the assassination of many people, including Ka’b ibn Ashraf, Asma bint Marwan, Abu Afak and others, for no other reason than criticizing him. So how can you guarantee that these adjudicators will not be assassinated once they pronounce me the winner of the debate, which means a public declaration that Islam is false and Muhammad was an impostor? Salman Rushdie still lives in hiding. A couple of his translators were assassinated. Theo Van Gogh is killed.
So unless you can come with a solid guarantee that the adjudicators will not be assassinated after they announce their decree, which obviously you can’t, I suggest we leave our readers to be the judges. I am sure people have a mind of their own and they do not need others telling them who won. Furthermore any adjudicator agreeing to this task is more likely one who has already made his mind in your favor and does not fear assassination. Anyone in his right mind would not want to put his life and his family in danger by publicly saying Islam is false.
You asked “If Allah is not The God, who do you say is?” and you wanted to know what religion and deity I offer as the alternative. Let us cross that bridge when we get there. This requires a dedicated section.
You write with quasi perfect English and you talked about your grownup children. This makes me understand that you are a mature person. But at the same time you make immature statements that make me wonder of your intelligence.
The girl with whom I had that debate used a powerful example to drive her point. She said if anyone called my mother a whore I would be offended; likewise she is offended if her prophet is referred to opprobriously. And she had the decency to apologize for using that example. I used the same example to answer her. That is why I spoke of my hypothetical mother, theoretically. But you are wondering why I don’t know the age of my mother and whether she is actually a whore or not.
What is this Mr. Rahman? Did you regress to your teenager mentality and could not resist the temptation of hurling your insults at your opponent? A distinguished scholar of your age and caliber should know better. Alluding to Muslims’ Comments, in my site you wrote:
“The recitation of a torrent of defamatory propaganda cannot be stemmed by protesting letters which only serve as fuel for further diatribes which I am sure delights you.”
Nonetheless you could not resist the temptation and joined the choir of your Muslim brothers. At your age, and knowing that I would use any misdemeanor of Muslims “with delight” to my advantage, I rather say that was a poor judgment on your behalf. Looks like despite your grandiloquent letter and your effort to present yourself as a polite and educated person, you have difficulty to contain the Muslim in you.
You said that you are suspicious of my claims of apostasy. Well, I must say that you are an astute observer. I confess that I have never been a Muslim in my life. If I ever called myself with that name, I did it out of ignorance. After I read the Quran, it became clear to me that I am not and have never been one. So the question of apostasy is moot. I was never a Muslim to begin with. Only that I did not know.
I have launched this campaign because I am convinced that more than a billion of the 1.2 billion Muslims are not Muslims. They just don’t know it. I am not trying to get Muslims out of Islam. That won’t be possible. All I want to do is let the “pretend Muslims” know that they should stop pretending and should stop calling themselves Muslims when in reality they are not.
Now to whet your appetite, I should tell you that this site is rapidly growing. As of now we have over 200,000 visitors per month and with this rate of growth, in two years this number will soar to 1,000,000 (The number of visitors has been more than doubling every year).
I am going to share with you a few paragraphs of a politician of a certain country that I received today. (I am not at liberty to give any hint that might jeopardize the position of this person)
Dear Mr. Sina
To encourage you, your website is having an effect in my country XXXX. I presently email your articles to about 300 people in our country of which a number of these themselves have large mailing lists. A number of these are media contacts, people involved in politics as well as Christian ministries and church organisations. I also send material to a few ex-Muslims living in XXXX and abroad.
Fundamentalism is a problem here. I know personally of brave people like you who have had their lives threatened in our country as they expose Islam and one had to flee this country to the USA.
I also email some of your articles to 100 or so email addresses internationally. Some are involved in politics in their countries. The feedback I have from these contacts of mine is very positive.
I am involved in politics in this country and am fairly well known. Therefore I would appreciate it if you would not publish this letter as I need to send out material from websites like yours as long as possible. By next year, it may not be possible. But already the knowledge I have acquired from your website as well as others, is helping to shape policies within my political party towards the Islamic issue.
I have compromised myself in this letter but felt that it was necessary just to encourage you.
Well, since I did not give away the name of this person nor his/her country, I am sure s/he will forgive me for publishing it.
This shows that this site is having an impact on the way the world will eventually view Islam and will deal with it. It is my contention that Islam is a political movement that aims to overthrow democracies and establish Khilafat and that religion is only a mask. I am asking the politicians of the non-Islamic countries to be aware of this impostor, identify it and confront it, not as a religion, which is not their prerogative, but as a hostile and subversive political movement. The goal of Islam is political and hence it is up to the politicians and rulers to confront it and nullify it.
I have received many other letters such as the above from politicians, journalists and writers of various countries. These are the ones who influence the way policies are made. The change is happening as I write these words. You may not feel it yet, but eventually this site will have its effect on how Islam will be viewed and dealt with by various governments in non-Muslim countries. The tide is turning and the downfall of Islam has already begun.
You have a choice: Prove me wrong and I promise to remove this site with an apology. In fact once you prove me wrong, this site becomes irrelevant. Even if I balk and refuse to meet my end of the bargain, I will be so discredited that you can even forget about me.
Or you may ignore me, keep your head under the sand and contend yourself saying: “Only the foolish would dignify them with response. Your agenda to demonise The Prophet will bring you appropriate rewards.” This kind of response will hardly impresses anyone. It only highlights the intellectual bankruptcy of Muslim intelligentsia. It shows that Muslims are only courageous when it comes to violence and terrorism but meek when it comes to logics.
You brag that the number of Muslims is growing. Yes Muslims are a philoprogenitive lot. But as the Chinese and the Indians can tell you, this is hardly good news. If you are referring to the conversion of the Europeans, you probably should know that for every European converting to Islam, hundreds of Muslims divert out of Islam.
Furthermore, for how long do you think these conversions will continue? Islam advances through deception and false propaganda yet sites like this are spreading the truth fast. When truth becomes known, for how long will your games of deception last? You have billions of dollars at your disposal to promote your religion and I have none of that. In fact creating and maintaining this site has not been without sacrifices. Yet I am winning and you are losing. Don’t you think it is time that you put an end to this site by refuting my claims? Hundreds of anti Islamic sites are popping up. If you can make this site shut down with your logical arguments, all the other sites will be forced to back off. You can’t put an end to this site by killing me. If something happen to me, tens of sites will mushroom mirroring this site and I have written enough to help people see the truth even after I am dead. The only way you can stop this site is by refuting it. Also I am not the only person who has risen to fight Islam. We are thousands and our number is growing.
”And if you believed in God, you would also understand that He is in Omnipotent control of every minutiae of detail. Your efforts will neither aid nor obstruct Him. They will simply ensure the destiny He has Written for you.”
Was this belief shared by your prophet too? In that case why he assassinated his opponents? Did he doubt the power of Allah? Moreover, can this “Omnipotent” god of yours refute a mortal like me? Why this “Omnipotent, Omniscient” god of yours failed to answer logical questions and all he did was calling the people who asked questions; deaf, dumb and blind and threatened to burn them in hell? These are logical fallacies. They are called argumentum ad hominem and argumentum ad baculum. Can’t your god do better? Can he refute me with logics, without condescendence, threats or insults?
Here is my challenge to you Mr. Rahman:
- Give me one solid proof that Muhammad was a prophet of God and not an impostor. All I need is one proof that I can’t refute logically.
- Refute the charges that I have brought against Muhammad. Prove that he was not a rapist, a pedophile, an assassin, a mass murderer, a lecher
a misogynist, a narcissist, a looter, a liar, a mentally deranged and a psychopath.
All these charges are detailed and proven in this site, but if you want, we can go over them one by one and you refute them. Are you up to it Sir? I hope to hear from you.
Dear Ali Sina,
You say that Muhammad is the problem.
Yet it was only when you read the Quran you decided against Islam.
Which was the deciding factor really?
If you have left Islam which you never really knew by your own admission, unless you have become an atheist, you have accepted another faith. You have crossed that bridge already.
You and I are in the valley of discussing religion. Why your reluctance to advise your faith and deity? Yet, if you feel that is mature, let it be.
Those who follow Muhammad err in that they do not separate his pre-revelation practices from his post revelation period. To condemn anyone for his pre-reformation behaviour is perverse. Rather, you should try to teach Muslims to follow Quran’s teachings, and even so you need to separate pre-Islamic establishment verses from post.
But I do not believe that you would be interested in that.
I must disappoint you in that I am not concerned with proving the self evident. Others are free to hold as warped perspectives as God is pleased to inspire them for His Purpose.
Your site will last exactly as long as God Wills.
Regarding the Ummah, it is as most others. Very few know in depth what their beliefs are. Many follow faiths by inheritance. You may seek to exploit that as much as you please.
As you claim I misunderstood your theoretical whoring mother, you have misunderstood my reference to The Omnipotent God. That is The God, not merely “my” God.
So I would repeat :- “And if you believed in God, you would also understand that He is in Omnipotent control of every minutiae of detail. Your efforts will neither aid nor obstruct Him. They will simply ensure the destiny He has Written for you.” What is your understanding of God my friend?
Know that Muhammad is deemed The Prophet by the Quran. If you reject the Quran, you would reject him logically. No other proof applies.
The Quran corrects him in several places and admits his faults and forgives him as well. Whatever he had been is now irrelevant. You of course would seek to make it relevant. Even though most of your allegations against him are simply exaggerated untruths, he has been forgiven completely in the promise of the Quran. Discussing him is irrelevant.
How can I help you further?
Dear Mr. Rahman,
You ask: “which was the deciding factor for me to realize Islam is false after reading the Quran?”.
I can’t put my finger on one specific verse as the deciding factor. I was already familiar with most of the Quran reading bits and pieces of it here and there. But when I sat down to actually study this book – and I studied it in Arabic using a couple of English translations to make sure I don’t miss anything – it became increasingly evident that the book does not contain any divine wisdom, that it is filled with violence, that it incites hate, and is patently stupid. You read one verse that does not sound right but you want to go on and try to overlook this particular verse searching for the pearls; but instead of pearls you find more dung. After you finish this book you wonder, what the heck it is talking about? Where are the spiritual teachings? Why you are not uplifted and enlightened?
Despite that experience, I did not decide to become an apostate overnight. At that time there were no sites like faithfreedom.org so I could further my studies, I relied entirely on my own resources and went through a period of very hard time of soul searching. I wrote about this difficult experience here. Finally an apostate friend handed me Ali Dashti’s “23 Years: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad” and that book gave me the confirmation that I needed.
You ask about my religion and deity. I already explained this to your friend Mr. Zakaria. I am a secular humanist and do not believe in any religion or deity. Albeit, I am not an atheist in the strict sense of this word! I believe in the Principle underlying the creation. This is not a being or an entity. It is more like Einstein and Spinoza’s God. However, I have no desire to impose my way of thinking on others. I respect people who have a religion and a god to whom they pray and on whom they rely. That is why you never see me criticizing other religions even though I do not believe in them. People have to find their own way and no one said my way is better. Some say religion is but a crutch. My response to them is: If so, who the hell are you to want to take that crutch away from those who need it?
The reason I oppose Islam is because it is a doctrine of hate and destruction. I do not fight Islam because it is a religion but because it is a political movement much like Nazism and fascism. It only masquerades itself as a religion to advance its political goals. You and I perfectly know that the ultimate goal of Islam is to overthrow the democracies and dominate the world. This is very political and hence the world must fight it politically. We must fight the political Islam; but since the political Islam is Islam, we must fight Islam.
You try to blame the “pre Islam” practices for the wrongs of Islam. I agree that there is a difference between the pre Islam and post Islam, but I prefer the pre Islam. In pre Islam Arabs were tolerant. Religious animosity was inexistent. Jews, Christians, Sabeans, Zoroastrians, and at least 360 different pagan religions lived side by side. The followers of these religions worked with each other, intermarried and religious wars was unknown to the Arabs. Arabs had tribal quarrels like everywhere else but nothing like when they converted to Islam. With Muhammad the genocide of the Jews and Christians began and the city of Yathrib (Medina) that had been basically founded by the Jews who had lived there for 2000 years, and eventually the whole Arabia was ethnically cleanses by Muhammad and his thugs.
Arab Women prior to Islam had far more rights. This is true in all Islamic countries. See this article for detail.
Islam also legitimized the violation of human rights and took away personal freedoms.
So, pre Islam was much better than after Islam. We can’t keep our head in the sand for ever. We have to acknowledge the source of the problem. The source of the problem is Islam, not Muslims.
You say: “To condemn anyone for his pre-reformation behaviour is perverse.” Obviously you are not familiar with my writings. I am saying Muhammad was at first almost Christlike. At first he spoke of patience and tolerance. All that changed when he came to power. We don’t know much about Muhammad’s pre “revelation” life. But we know he was completely transformed after he went to Medina and became powerful. Before he was not that bad, but then he became a real monster. Muhammad exemplified the adage “power corrupts”
Muhammad and Allah are one and the same thing, my dear Mr, Rahman. Allah is the figment of Muhammad’s mind. Even if there is a God, he is not Allah and he had nothing to do with Muhammad. Allah is Muhammad’s alter ego. It is like you creating another fictitious Internet id that would come to your help anytime you need him, who would confirm whatever you say and occasionally rebuke you gently and lovingly so you can fool others making them believe you and your fake id are two different persons. Ask Mr. Zakaria, he invented an Internet id who came to our forum and said that Mr. Zakaria is the greatest philosopher of our time. Now, who but himself would give such a approving mark of him? Now imagine he had convinced us into believing this fake id of him is the greatest authority on Earth. Wouldn’t some of us have fallen for the trick. Muhammad used the same trick. His Allah was his own fake id. It was his own alter ego. This is an old trick used by all cult leaders. .
Instead of threatening me with the punishments that Muhammad’s fake id has in store for me, why don’t you give a single proof that he was actually telling the truth? I am asking you to give me one single proof that Muhammad was indeed a prophet of God and not a liar. There are 1.2 billion Muslims and all I am asking is one single proof that can’t be refuted logically. Are you telling me that you have none? Yes indeed you disappoint me Mr. Rahman. You wrote a book on Islam and now you tell me that you can’t even prove that Muhammad was a prophet? You want me to believe in this man just because he threatened those who do not believe in him with hellfire?
Why don’t you believe in me? I tell you if you deny my divinity you will be burned in a hell twice as hot as the one Muhammad described. Is that enough? In fact you’ll be taken to such a place that Muhammad’s hell will look like picnic. Is that enough to convince you that I am a messenger of God?
You have based your faith on a man who has not given you a single proof that he was not lying. All he did is to call those who did not believe in him, “deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom” 2:171. When he was pressed for proof he said,
“As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.” 2:6
In this way he balked and avoided the question altogether. He resorted to ad hominem, he resorted to ad baculum, he resorted to ridicule and scorn but he never answered the question.
This is pathetic! A billion of you believe in a lie concocted by a psychopath who lived a life filled with crimes, genocide, lust for sex, control and power, and none of you pauses for one minute to wonder if this man was truly a messenger of God why he never gave us any logical proof. What puts this man apart from David Koresh, Jim Jones or Charles Manson who also were charismatic leaders and fooled their followers to commit murder and even suicide to prove their loyalty? Would really the true God send a messenger without any proof?
Forget about the proof. What about the charges that I have brought against him? Can you disprove any of them? You can’t. No one can. There is a $50,000 dollars reward for anyone who can prove those charges are not true. If you can’t disprove me, it shows Muhammad was guilty as charged. How can one billion people worship and follow a man who was the embodiment of all the vices?
Who cares what you believe. What bothers me is that you are promoting your satanic cult and trying to dominate the world. We have to stop you. I don’t give a damn if someone wants to worship snakes, rats, Hobal or Allah. As long as they don’t try to take away my freedom and are not trying to dominate the world, people must have the freedom to believe in anything they like. But I can’t close my eyes and do nothing when a bunch of Satan worshippers are spreading their hatred and are bombing and killing innocent people. You are dangerous to the society. You are dangerous to Mankind. You must be unmasked and stopped. You might be misguided but you are now a zombie programmed to kill. There is no rationality in you. I am asking a simple question. Prove that Muhammad was a messenger of God. You can’t. You are willing to talk about anything else but the question that is the core of our discussion. You would rather talk about America, the “Joooos”, the crusaders, the Hiroshima, the WWI and WWII but not give one proof that Muhammad was a messenger of God. When it comes to this vital question, all you can do is to resort to threat of hell and tell me if I don’t believe I will have to answer to your bugaboo Allah who is a sadist and will burn people in his cosmic rotisserie for eternity. That is all you have as the “proof”. You either call people; deaf, dumb and blind who do not understand, as your prophet did, or you threatened them with punishment for not believing in his lies. If this is not intellectual bankruptcy what is?
You say: “Know that Muhammad is deemed The Prophet by the Quran”. But isn’t the Quran what this man dictated? What if he was lying? It boils down to this:
Hey people I am a prophet!
Where are your credentials?
Here is a letter that I have written that says I am a prophet.
But this is your own words.
No this is what Allah dictated and I wrote it.
How can we know you are not lying?
Stupid people aka Muslims: –
Whoa! What a convincing argument! We believe.
Now let us go and raid merchant caravans.
Muslims: –But isn’t stealing unethical?
No! Because you became poor after following me and are no more working, Allah has given you the right to lay hand on other people’s property. Also they oppressed you. You can kill them. Oppression is worse than killing 2:217 Now let us attack villages without warning and take the population by surprise while they are heedless and their cattle is being watered at places of water. We will kill their fighting men and take their women and children as captives. Remember that the prettiest of the captives is my share. [Bukhari 3.46.717 ]
Muslims: –But isn’t raping married women sin?
Muhammad: –No! Incidentally Allah sent me a verse this morning saying it is okay to have sex with your right hand possessions. 4:24 So rape them with clear conscience. But always remember that the prettiest captive belongs to Allah and his messenger. [Bukhari1.8.367]
Also from now on you don’t have to practice coitus interruptus. Go ahead and ejaculate inside your victims “for if any soul is predestined to exist, it will exist”. [Bukhari 3.46.718 5.59.459 Abu Dawood 126.96.36.199 188.8.131.52]
One day Muhammad was walking with history’s greatest fool, Abu Bakr.
Hey Abu, you got this little girl Aisha. The angel showed her to me in a wet dream and told me she is mine. And you know? “If this is from Allah, then it must happen.” Bukhari 9.87.140
Abu Bakr trying to protest sheepishly: –
But Aisha is only 6 years old. She is just a baby. She is still playing with her dolls. [Bukhari 8, 73,151]
Okay you give her to me in marriage and I will wait until she becomes 9 years old before I go to her and give her the surprise of her life [Bukhari7, 62,90] I will give her a different kind of doll to play with. wink, wink!
The great fool Abu Bakr:–
But I am your brother.
“You are my brother in Allah’s religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry.”. Bukhari 7.62.18
One day Muhammad goes to visit one of his wives, Hafsah, the daughter of Omar. He sees Mariyah, Hafsah’s Coptic maid and becomes horny. He sends Hafsah out telling her, Omar wants to see you. When she goes out, he calls Mariyah and has sex with her in Hafsah’s bed. Mariyah is soooo hot that for the first time in a many years the aging prophet has a full erection and she becomes pregnant. She is the only woman out of a score of women with whom Muhammad had sex after Khadijah that becomes pregnant. Hafsah finds out that her father had not send for her and comes back to find her illustrious husband, naked, between the legs of her maid. Being a woman, she does what women usually do in similar situations. She screams and starts making a scandal. (Can’t women respect even a prophet?) Taken by surprise, Muhammad tries to calm down his hysteric wife and promises her not to approach Mariyah again while pulling up his pants, and begs her to keep the incident, a secret. Hafsah can’t keep her mouth shut and informs Aisha who gangs up with a group of other co-wives and make the life miserable for the Messenger of Allah. When the Messenger of Allah has enough of this nonsense he makes his Allah reveal Surah Tahrim in which he “rebukes” Muhammad telling him:
1. O Prophet! Why do you ban (for yourself) that which Allâh has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
2. Allâh has already ordained for you (O men), the dissolution of your oaths. And Allâh is your Maula (Lord, or Master, or Protector, etc.) and He is the All-Knower, the All-Wise.
3. And (remember) when the Prophet (SAW) disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his wives (Hafsah), so when she told it (to another i.e. ‘Aishah), and Allâh made it known to him, he informed part thereof and left a part. Then when he told her (Hafsah) thereof, she said: “Who told you this?” He said: “The All-Knower, the All-Aware (Allâh) has told me”.
4. If you two (wives of the Prophet SAW, namely ‘Aishah and Hafsah) turn in repentance to Allâh, (it will be better for you), your hearts are indeed so inclined (to oppose what the Prophet SAW likes), but if you help one another against him (Muhammad SAW), then verily, Allâh is his Maula (Lord, or Master, or Protector, etc.), and Jibrael (Gabriel), and the righteous among the believers, and furthermore, the angels are his helpers.
5. It may be if he divorced you (all) that his Lord will give him instead of you, wives better than you, Muslims (who submit to Allâh), believers, obedient to Allâh, turning to Allâh in repentance, worshipping Allâh sincerely, fasting or emigrants (for Allâh’s sake), previously married and virgins.“ [Tarikh Tabari also see Bukhari 3.43.648 ]
Isn’t Allah nice to his prophet? He rebukes him for banning himself to have sex with Mariyah when Allah has made this lawful to him. Then he tells his beloved prophet that he does not have to keep his words just to appease a bunch of women. Go ahead Allâh has already ordained for you the dissolution of your oaths. And as the bounty, now all men are licensed to dissolve their oaths (especially when they become horny) because Allah is the All-Knower, the All-Wise. Allah even tells his beloved prophet to divorce all of his uppity wives if they are not obedient and content with his sexual escapades and marry lots of other women who will be better..
Whoa! What a great wisdom.
In another occasion this very “All-Knower, All-Wise god” of Muhammad rebukes his prophet for telling his foster son to keep his wife when he lusts for her.
33.37 “Behold! Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour: “Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah.” But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah’s command must be fulfilled.
How wise! The noblest institution of child adoption is annulled because Muhammad was horny and wanted to have sex with the wife of his foster son.
There are so many cases that I can bring as evidence that Muhammad made up these verses to satisfy his own selfish needs. If you drop that blinder of gullibility you’ll find the entire Quran is nothing but a pretext for Muhammad to dominate the foolhardy.
You wrote a book on Islam. You are supposedly a scholar of this freak religion. Are you saying that you did not see the elephant in the room? The first time I read the Quran I realized it is a hoax. Since then I continued my research and have brought a well documented case against Muhammad. How could you not see the obvious? Where is your brain Mr. scholar of Islam? How can you not see that Muhammad made up the whole damn thing for his own benefit? If I tell you I am a prophet of God would you believe me? If the only proof I present is that if you don’t believe me you’ll be burnt in hell would you believe me? If not, why you believe Muhammad? Why you believe a man who was so evil and had no proof of his claim except frightening you with hell? Isn’t this hell foolish? What kind of God would punish people in this sadistic way? Is Allah Satan? Even Satan must have some compassion. Only a deranged psychopath can envision a deity so ruthless as Allah. Why would God be so desperate to be known and worshiped anyway? Isn’t this whole concept a lunacy? How can you let yourself be fooled like a child Mr. Scholar? Aren’t you embarrassed of your naiveté? Are you consoled by the fact that there are other billion people who are just as fool as you are?
This is the greatest madness. How can a billion people act like zombies and never question what was the proof of Muhammad? Why no one asks if he was a prophet of God, why he was so evil? How could a prophet of God have sex with a 9 year old child? Aren’t you shocked? Don’t fool yourself with excuses such as “this was the custom of the people in those days”. This is not true at all. We don’t have any other anecdote of a 53 year old man marry a 9 year old girl and have sex with her prior to Muhammad. This tradition started with that evil man. David Koresh also slept with teenager daughters of his followers. Is this a custom of today’s people? Hell no! The cult leaders set their own rule and they consider themselves above the law. Furthermore, even if what you say is true, did Muhammad come to follow the bad customs of the people or to guide them to the right path and set new standards? What he did has become the standard and the guideline of a billion brainless zombies. How can you let this happen? How much foolishness is enough Mr. Muslim Intellectual Scholar?
There is so much evil in Muhammad. All it take is to use a little bit of commonsense to see he was an impostor and not a prophet of God.
You say “The Quran corrects him in several places and admits his faults and forgives him as well.”
How naïf of you Sir! If you claimed to be a prophet and then said something, which you wanted to change, how would you do that? Can’t you see this is a childish game that he played to fool his followers? How else he could have everything he desired and break every norm of decency without incurring the wrath of his followers unless he did not make his Allah rebuke him for being too harsh on himself? How foolish of you Sir for falling for the scams of that charlatan.
One day he found expedient to say Lat, ‘Uzza and Manat “These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries) whose intercession is to be hoped for.” to appease the Meccans. Once he realized that he has goofed and with this admission he is undermining his own claim of prophethood, how could he get out of this mess? He makes his Allah to say these were satanic verses and that Satan had placed them in his mouth. So he takes the blame for being fooled by Satan and also makes his Allah forgive him. How can you not see this plot? How can you be so gullible?
At the end you have the cheek to say: “Even though most of your allegations against him are simply exaggerated untruths, he has been forgiven completely in the promise of the Quran.”
I don’t know what to say! Have you ever given the thought that it is possible that Muhammad concocted the Quran and this book may not be a book of revelation? How can you be so gullible Mr. Scholar of Islam? So the Quran forgives him? Doesn’t this mean that he is forgiving himself? If he was a liar, doesn’t this mean that the Quran could also be a lie forged by him? What proof you have that the Quran is from God? Present that proof and let us discuss it.
Then you end your message by saying:
“How can I help you further?”
Really? …You?… Help me? You certainly have a good sense of humor.
Okay! Let us play your game. Please give me one proof so I know for certainty that Muhammad was not liar. That is all I ask you.
All I am asking from 1.2 billion people who call themselves Muslims to give me one solid evidence that Muhammad was a prophet of God. Do you people have any proof? Is your faith based on logic or sheer stupidity? Isn’t it odd that God gave no proof to back up his favorite prophet and now he must compete with all other charlatans and impostors to establish his claim? Tell me what sets Muhammad apart for other cult leaders who also have no proof to their claim and yet threaten the stupid people that if they do not believe they will go to hell?
From: M.F. Rahman [mailto:[email protected]]
Subject: ‘A’ Blinded by hate and prejudice.
In response to the vitriolic pens of warped evangelisers…:-
The sins of Muhammad are perceived by his detractors to be many. But detractors can only see evil. The worth of Muhammad is lost on his enemies. But enemies cannot admit to the value of their quarry.
Muhammad waged war at the Command of God.
His enemies will not tolerate this.
They prefer to wage war for their selves.
Muhammad married a child bride in accordance with his cultural practice then fully the norm. Those who cannot avail of this now spew their venom against him in impotent jealousy out of frustrated desire. But he received the sanction of God for his actions, and forgiveness for all his sins. His enemies cannot accept this.
He married the divorced wife of his formerly adopted son with the assent of God. “Foul!” cry his detractors.
He slew men, took prisoners, established religion by force. His detractors cannot forgive him.
Now his religion is established as The Religion of Peace, sobriety, rectitude, truth, paradise, polygamy, faith, prayer, charity, fasting and pilgrimage. The fruits of his faith are hateful to his enemies.
They choke on their rage and are hypocrites to their faith of forgiveness and tolerance.
They point fingers at him inchoate in their rage.
They exaggerate his faults, hide his virtues, deny his successes, denigrate his mission.
Let them rant and rave. God is the Judge of all. They lie of their love and deny their hatred. But they fool none but themselves. They have no courage of their faith. They cannot imprecate against themselves. They fear the wrath of God. They are cowards. They hide behind improvised rules to save their skins from the wrath their imprecations will bring of a surety.
These are hollow men of false faith following man-made doctrines and jumping up like monkeys on non-issues, baying like jackals and braying all at the same time.
Jesus Loves Muhammad. David Loved Muhammad. Solomon Loved Muhammad. Moses Loved Muhammad. And most of all, God Loves Muhammad. But many of their followers hate Muhammad with a passion for they prefer to worship a man in derogation of God Himself.
| 2005/03/09 |
To Ali Sina.
Your admitted atheism stands devoid of historical truth. The bar of History extols Muhammad in a way to render your own diatribes unworthy of response. So many who held their own faith wrote glowingly of him whom you condemn. Anyone who swallows your disinformation begins with his own willingness.
The internet is brimful of information on Muhammad which anyone can access, for a balanced view. The Quran is also available in English and other languages. Your task to destroy Islam by slander against the Prophet will prove an impossible one since the evidence is available to those wishing to learn the truth.
Your peers in atheism have written equally vilely against the Prophet Jesus. “Freethinkers” have preceded you in infamy and into judgment. You are not a new phenomenon.
My duty has been discharged. Your work bears the evidence of your destiny. You will reject that until you are confronted with reality that you cannot now contemplate. The Quran will not guide you. Indeed as it promises, you seem to be among the many that it will misguide.
You may now indulge your virulent hatred of Truth to your heart’s content. Those who are created for Paradise will not be deflected.
The point of our contention is not theism vs. atheism. I am not a materialist atheist and have no problem with the notion of God as believed by some theist religions. The question I am asking you and you are avoiding is that irrespective of what your definition of God may be, prove that Muhammad was the messenger of that god. Based on my findings, Muhammad could not have been a messenger of any god unless his god is Satan.
You say history extols Muhammad. Which history? I am basing my knowledge of Islam on the history written by the early Muslim historians such as Ibn Ishaq, Tabari and al Waqidi and also what we know of Muhammad through various hadiths. The image of Muhammad emerging from these sources is anything but deserving of praise. Muhammad, as described by these early Muslim historians, appears to be a ruthless tyrant and hardly anyone who could be a prophet of God. Tell me what history extols Muhammad? These three books, plus the hadith are the only sources that shed light on Muhammad and his character. Anything else written by anyone else, centuries later, that may differ from these original books is obviously forged and is of no credibility.
Muslims love to quote Gandhi who spoke glowingly of Muhammad. Was Gandhi a scholar of Islam? Where did he get his information about Islam? Gandhi was a great man but he had his flaws. He was an appeaser of Muslims and whatever he said about Islam is of little value. George W. Bush also said Islam is a religion of peace. Is he an authority on Islam? What does he know? The opinions of misinformed people, no matter how famous they may be, should not be taken as evidence when we have the real sources to rely on. This is called argumentum ad verecundiam fallacy.
You call my writings “misinformation”. I repeatedly asked you to come forth and correct whatever is misinformation. Why you want to withdraw? Isn’t it because you know perfectly that what I say is true? I say Quran is false and I stand by my word and prove it. You say what I say is misinformation. Why don’t you stand by your word and prove it? It is very easy to shatter misinformation with correct information. After all misinformation is based on lies and information is based on facts. Where are your facts? If I lie, what is the truth? Why instead of using argumentum ad baculum and trying to intimidate me with the torments that your booger god has in store for me, don’t you point out to my lies and tell the truth?
No Sir! Your duty has not been discharged. Unless you think your duty is to frighten people with your bogeyman god, you have said nothing to defend Islam. You failed to refute my charges. You failed to provide any proof that Muhammad was a messenger of God. You expect people to believe in your lies just because you tell them if they don’t, they will be burned in hell. You can frighten a child into compliance with that kind of threat but you can’t make a rational person believe in stupidities just because you tell him, believe or else. In all your letters, you said nothing except warn me of the consequences of my disbelief. Tell me why should I believe in Islam and not in other Dooms Day cults that equally base their faith on scare mongering?
Scare mongering is the preferred tool of child molesters and psychopaths. They often make their victims comply by instilling in them fear. “If you tell anyone what I did to you” they say to their vulnerable victims. “you will never see your mom and dad”. This kind of threat often works. Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped from her home and spent more than a year with her kidnappers, often cooperating with them. Even though she had the opportunity to walk to police and ask for help, she did not, because her kidnappers had instilled in her such a fear that had paralyzed this 15 year old smart girl. Psychopaths use fear to control people. Fear is more powerful than rational thinking. How can you not see this Mr. Scholar? Scholar of what?
My task to destroy Islam will succeed – not through slander. There is no need for slander when truth is so lethal. I am succeeding already and the world is seeing the truth. What? Do you think all the Muslims are stupid and love to fool themselves at any cost? No Sir! the majority of them care about the truth. Islam succeeded so far because spiritually blind people managed to strangulate the truth by killing its expounders. The Internet has changed the rules of the game. Today we can tell the truth for the first time and as it becomes exceedingly manifest, Muslims are speechless. The truth is that you have no answer to my arguments. The truth is that you can’t refute anyone of my charges against Muhammad. The truth is that all you can do to keep Islam alive is scare people with lies about a sadistic god that will torture humans for eternity. Only fools will believe in those blatant lies. Let the fools remain Muslims. I intend to help intelligent people out of Islam not the fools. This Allah that you describe is a psychopath. How can any real God do such things to humans, for “sins” like thinking and questioning the absurdities of a book? As Galileo said, if God did not want us to think, he would not have given us brain. Now that he gave us brain, how can he punish us for using it?
No Mr. Rahman; you are mistaken. Paradise is not for foolish people. You don’t get rewarded for being stupid. You are deluding yourself. If there is a paradise, people will be judged by their deeds and not by what they believe. Your beliefs are irrelevant. What counts is your actions. You will be asked: Have you loved your fellow humans? Have you helped someone in his dire moments? Did you promote peace and unity among Mankind? Did you fight against hatred and ignorance? Did you instigate hate and disunity? Did you foment sedition? Did you support religious apartheid, advocated misogyny, violated the human rights of others, promoted terrorism, killed another human being in the name of your faith? If there is a Day of Judgment, these are the questions that you would be asked and not what you believe and who you worship. If there is a God, He is above the need of being worshiped by a bunch of hairless apes. You can bet He has other worlds and other concerns. You and I do not even enter in His grand scheme and less our beliefs. It is not God who needed to be obeyed and worshiped. It was Muhammad who needed it. He used Allah as a pretext. He kept asking his foolish followers to obey “Allah and his messenger”. Since Allah did not give a hoot about obedience, and was indeed an absentee suzerain, all that obedience was due to Muhammad. He became the de facto God, ruling in His lieu and commanding with His authority. Religion became a perfect tool of domination for a narcissist man who craved for attention, respect and domination. Only a fool can miss this.
In your previous email you wrote: “The sins of Muhammad are perceived by his detractors to be many. But detractors can only see evil.”
Isn’t it true that even criminals have a good side? We are talking about someone who claimed to be a prophet of God and the perfect example to follow. Such a man should not have any sins. Even one sin would disqualify him as a perfect example. Yet Muhammad was the embodiment of every sin. Possibility, he was the worst human who ever lived. Hitler, for example, cannot be accused of sexual perversion. Muhammad was just as ruthless as Hitler and he was also a lecher and a pedophile to boot. Tell us about the virtues of Muhammad. Can you? Or all you can do, is fool the uninformed? I imagine that you know that with me you can’t play your favorite game of deception. Isn’t this the reason you are calling the quit already?
You wrote: “Muhammad waged war at the Command of God.”
How do you know it was the command of God? Did God command Muhammad to raid civilians, kill innocent unarmed people, massacre prisoners, [Bukhari 4,52,280] rape their wives, loot their properties and take them as slaves? What kind of God would give such commands to his prophet? If God wanted to kill people, he had all sorts of means at his disposal, why he needed the believers to act as his henchmen? Can’t you see the ploy, the manipulation and the mind control? Isn’t it obvious that Muhammad used the foolish people who believed in him for his own gain? What he did was satanic. This can only prove that the God of Muhammad was Satan. “Ye shall know them by their fruits”. Rape, genocide, looting and raiding unarmed people are not good fruits. They are not divine actions. Whoever gave those orders to Muhammad could not have been the loving creator of this universe. Muslims can’t be people of God. They are devil worshippers. Muhammad was demon possessed. Whatever he did was demonic.
You wrote: “Muhammad married a child bride in accordance with his cultural practice then fully the norm.”
Apart from the fact that this was never a norm anywhere and sleeping with children is simply disgusting to sane men, did Muhammad come to follow the bad cultural practices of the people that he allegedly came to guide or he came to change them? Don’t you see the circular reasoning? Muhammad followed a bad cultural practice of a primitive people and now the whole Islamic world is emulating him and doing exactly what he did because he said; follow my examples. You silence your (inexistent) conscience by justifying the shameful crime of Muhammad with moral relativism claiming those were the cultural practices of those days. How do you justify that those evil practices are now established as the norm in all Islamic countries? The man who came to change the world for better, followed the evil cultural practices of the people whom he called ignorant and as the result their evil practices became universal. Isn’t this ironic that Muhammad instead of guiding became the source of misguidance? How could God let this happen?
Then you said: “Those who cannot avail of this now spew their venom against him in impotent jealousy out of frustrated desire.”
You are truly a sick man Mr. Rahman. How in the hell you think any sane person could have sexual feelings for children and feel “jealousy out of frustrated desire” for this shameful conduct? When I asked this question from Grand Ayatollah Montazeri, he had the decency to acknowledge that it is not natural for grownup men to have sexual feelings for children. He is a Mullah but he commands my respect. He is a good human being and I always loved and admired him. You think men are jealous of Muhammad for deflowering a child? You are truly a Muslim. I can’t find a worse insult than calling you a Muslim. Are you telling us that at your advanced age you don’t mind taking a child to bed? How disgusting! …”jealousy of frustrated desire” for having sex with a child? How sickening! How repulsively revolting! Truly Islam is the religion of Satan. It is time that the pretend Muslims wake up and see what Islam is. Leave Islam before losing your humanity and start talking like Mr. M.F. Rahman. As the Imam of Aisha said, Leave Islam before it is too late. Run, Run.
Then you wrote: “But he received the sanction of God for his actions, and forgiveness for all his sins.”
Who told you that? Did you speak to God? This is what Muhammad said. How do you know he did not lie? How can God forgive an evil man like Muhammad? You are fooling yourself my benighted friend. If there is a hell, Muhammad is in the lowest pit of it, where he beseeches Hitler to intercede on his behalf. Alas, you are too Muslim to understand.
You wrote: “He married the divorced wife of his formerly adopted son with the assent of God.”
How do you know it was with the assent of God? What if you have been fooled and God never spoke to Muhammad?
You wrote: “He slew men, took prisoners, established religion by force.”
At least you are not among those Muslim apologists who lie and claim Muhammad’s wars were all in self defense. But what if he was not a messenger of God and used ignorant people to slay their kind, take them as prisoners and slaves for his own end? What proof you have that he was not another psychopath cult leader like David Koresh or Jim Jones?
You wrote: “Now his religion is established as The Religion of Peace, sobriety, rectitude, truth, paradise, polygamy, faith, prayer, charity, fasting and pilgrimage. The fruits of his faith are hateful to his enemies.”
Really? Is Islam a religion of peace, rectitude and truth? How can a religion of war invented by a psychopath liar, a marauding gangster, a war monger, a slave maker and trader evolve into a religion of peace, rectitude and truth? Does the Muslim world show any sign of peace? Aren’t the Muslim countries the most barbaric, miserable and wretched countries of the world? Aren’t the Muslims involved in 95% of the wars across the world? How much you want to fool yourself? How pathetic that you even consider a social ill such as polygamy, a virtue. You have lost every notion of right and wrong.
You called the detractors of Islam “coward”. Yet when I ask you to present your evidence, you hide your tail in between your legs and walk away. Who is coward? Muslims are only brave when it comes to cowardly acts of terrorism. They are only brave in bombing, beheading people in captivity and massacring school children. Why you Muslims are not brave in the battle of intellects?
Then after shamelessly berating your opponents and saying: “These are hollow men of false faith following man-made doctrines and jumping up like monkeys on non-issues, baying like jackals and braying all at the same time.” You went on to make the most outlandish and ludicrous claim and said:
”Jesus Loves Muhammad. David Loved Muhammad. Solomon Loved Muhammad. Moses Loved Muhammad. And most of all, God Loves Muhammad.”
What the hell are you talking about? Muhammad was not even born when these guys lived. Have they prophesized about Muhammad? Can you quote any prophecy about Muhammad from any of these people? There is none and when Muhammad was told that there is no prophecy about him in the Bible, he said the Jews and the Christians have tampered with their holy books. His followers were so stupid that they did not think such thing, centuries after those books were written and distributed wide and far, is technically impossible. They swallowed the bait with hook, line and sinker. They swallowed everything Muhammad told them. They silenced the voices of dissent and then foolishly got inspired from each other and extolled the invisible cloak of the emperor.
Indeed Islam is the religion of the brain damaged people.
Anyone willing to continue this debate? Is there any Muslim out there that can prove Muhammad was a prophet of God without resorting to ad hominem, ad baculum and other logical fallacies?
Mr. Rahman used to sent his emails to the following list of Islamic sites. I did the same. I bet all these Yahoogroups published his emails but not mine.
At the end I invited them to join this discussion. Don’t leave your brother alone. Please help him out and see whether jointly you can make this lie more believable.
“Al-Muhajiroun” <[email protected]>,
“Islam Awakened Group” <[email protected]>,
“Islam is Peace” <[email protected]>,
“Islamic net” <[email protected]>,
“Tai.” <[email protected]>
To read other debates between Ali Sina and those who tried to answer his challenge, open https://web.archive.org/web/20150112011258/http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates.htm