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Who Created God? – Faithfreedom.org

Who Created God?

Ali Sina

Ali Sina is the author of Understanding Muhammad and Muslims.

50 Responses

  1. Steve says:

    Passive observer

    “Anyhow I appreciate your kindness. You don’t want to punish anyone. You look gentler than Jesus. In your heaven I can imagine, Adolf Hitler and Mother Theresa sitting side by side smiling and chatting” I don’t believe in the fantasy of heaven, it’s the Christians who believe people like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Darmer will go to heaven – despite the fact they were serial killers – why? Because they accepted Jesus Christ as their personal saviour while in prison before they died. So your one argument you presented in your message is utter bull****.

    “You hate a punishing God” Why would I hate something I don’t believe in? And which is a frigment of your imagination? Also Allah is even more punishing than Jehovah why we shouldn’t try him! At least with the God of the Jews after he orders you and your tribe to be massacred when you are dead you are dead and no hell fire but with Allah you get the hell fire for eternity.

    “Fredrick Nietzsche, the patron saint of “Existentialism” and “Post Modernism” too hated Jesus. “God is dead” said this great philosopher, but ended up his life as a mad man, through syphilis” He madness was probably caused by manic depression which he suffered from and not syphilis and certainly not a “hatred of Jesus”.

  2. Steve says:

    Why

    “Neither have you met Jeebus, so why should I take your word for it.” I am just offering a interpretation, since none of us knew anything about Jesus or his life and his teachings (if he existed) we can only speculate about what kind of person he was.

    “Paul is more close to Jeebus and his disciples than others. It is definite he knows better about jeebus than you or me, who are 2000 years after Jeebus.” We have no reason to say that, should we also then believe in the resurrection? No this is a myth that Christians made up, if Christians can make up the main pillar of their faith up why they couldn’t make up these stories about Jesus preaching about the end of the world and so on? They certainly could have and maybe only a few of a real Jesus’s teachings survived in the gospels? That’s one possibility another is yours that he was a dooms day preacher, extreme Jewish rabbi and messiah claimant. Or maybe his whole existence is a myth? That’s also possible. You see many interpretations are possible, a person can quote something of Jesus saying something wise or good and then someone else can quote something else where he apparently says something bad or nonsensical, and then people can argue about is this supposed to be literal or figurative or metaphor and so on and on. The point is the case of Jesus is not clear cut and you should take the Christian bible with a grain of salt.

    “I do NOT care what interpretation people give. Do you have any proper objection to the interpretation I have given. Jeebus could be a mix of all the interpretations” Anything anybody says about Jesus is interpretation- since we don’t know anything his life or his teachings. Even the canonical gospels is somebody’s interpretation (remember they were not written for decades after his death and the authors are anonymous (the names Luke, Matthew mark and John are made up). Also Jesus only had a handful of followers many believe that Jesus’s message had already petered out and died by the time Paul came along. For example, Jesus took his whole life to convert only a few people over to his way of thinking, and even of those it is questionable how much they really understood, since Jesus would criticize them for being useless since they couldn’t understand some of his most basic teachings. By contrast, Paul would reportedly convert thousands of people after only about twenty minutes.

    …”This is requirement of Mosaic law” The Jews did not enforce the punishment of stoning so your rationalisation here about Jesus thinking about the mosaic law was a waste of your time. Also if you want to quote Jesus view of law then others can quote him saying “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.” You see what I mean about interpretation and the character of Jesus not being clear cut?

    “NOTICE HOW YOU DISREGARD THE EXPLICIT STATEMENT OF JEEBUS WHICH SAYS ONE IS TO OBEY MOSES’ LAWS.” At another time he says 35For I have come to turn“ ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ He is not preaching law of Moses here is he? (Quite the opposite in fact).

  3. @madfijian, @ steve, @Gezza
    The inner development of a person can influence the outer environment. Similarly a well developed outer environment can influence the inner development of a person. I belong to the second category. I was a nominal Christian. 9/11 made my eyes open wider. When I accidentally stumbled at FaithFreedom I came to know clearly that Mohammad was a fraud (thanks to Ali Sina): that made me to review the Bible. There may be inaccuracies and inconsistencies in the Bible. Nevertheless I could see that all the O.T writers within the span of 1600 yrs speak with one voice on monotheism, human morality, Messiah(Jesus), the concept of sin, faithfulness and redemption. What fascinates me most is that there are more than 300 prophecies about the Messiah. This has happened in spite of the fact that these writers, during 1600 yrs, do not know each other. I want to ask you a question “Have you ever wondered how the Bible, which is very evil in your eyes, has impacted on the Nobel Prize winners? Out of 830 or so winners, approximately 800 were Christians(620) and Jews(180). Please don’t say Bertrand Russel was an agnostic, Albert Einstein was an atheist and so on. They may be many, but they were brought up in Christian/Jewish homes, or educated in Christian institutions.
    I had concerns, just as you, that the O.T God was a jealous. punishing, tit for tat, God; but chastising a primitive/tribal/feudal society is very difficult. “Eye for an eye” commandment gives us a glimpse of how a boisterous society they were, 40 centuries ago. (compare to what Abubacker Bagdadi is doing now.). Jesus reoriented “Eye for an eye” for the modern man, by saying “Whoever slaps you on your right cheek turn you left cheek also” (Matt 5:38). Gandhi who loved Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount voluntarily took beatings and imprisonments from the British and brought the Empire down. The Nobel Peace Prize committee took notice of this concept of non-violence belatedly, and given peace prizes to many from Mandela to Malala.
    God of O.T had the necessity to assert His status when He found His people were worshiping stones and idols. It may be puzzling why He repeatedly punishing the people for 1600 yrs. It is possible that between every book or even chapters of the Bible, 2-3 generations might have passed; just as in the case of Communist Russia. There was no God in 1910s, killed 20 million people, and found God in 1990s. Unlike Mohammad and his Allah, OT God had a solid purpose. He had to chastise the Jewish race, wherein Jesus to be born as a Jew. You may feel aghast why He killed the infants and children. We all have the tendency to view God as an earthly king; but God has the power to resurrect children to heaven without judgement. Jesus said “Unless you change and become like children you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven? (Matt 18:3) I have no problem accepting the carrot and stick (heaven & hell) policy of God. I was punished several times for my over speed driving, finally came to my senses.
    How the outer environment has influenced my inner development?Nearly 800 out of 830 or so Nobel prize winners were impacted by the Bible, (which you consider evil) 620 Christians and 180 Jews. Please don’t say Bertrand Russel was an agnostic, Albert Einstein was an atheist etc, etc., many of them may be. However they were brought up in Christian/Jewish homes( not in Saudi Arabia) or had education in Christian institutions. Even Amartya Sen, a Hindu, a Nobel laureate finally studied in Trinity College, Cambridge, He told Tony Blair Govt “only Christian faith schools are acceptable”
    The famous American Declaration of Independence, or The French declaration of the Rights of Man” have Christian roots. Even Nelson Mandela from the dark continent was able to forgive the notorious Botha Govt and created The Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
    Millions of Christian oriented NGOs, including the services of 700,000 Catholic nuns, run schools, colleges, hospitals, clinics, homes for the aged, orphans, intellectually disabled people,etc.,etc in 190 countries. Consequently, Christians are second to none when it comes to science, technology, medicine, economics, philosophy, literature, music and sports.
    Despite WW I & II more than 130 Christian majority countries comparatively live in peace and most are democracies. This has helped me to check the validity of Jesus prophecy.”The stone that the builders rejected has become the corner stone “(Matt 21:42) Yes He has become the corner stone of the world. It is marvelous in our eyes.
    Christian civilization springs from the love of Jesus. He has shed His precious blood from the cross for everyone of us. He stressed that loving God and loving man is equally important. He rejects our vertical relationship with God if our horizontal relationship with our fellow man is bad. He says boldly, with divine authority, to those who run to God for mercy with offerings and prayers, “Keep your offerings at the altar, go back, shake hands with your enemy, and then come to offer” (Matt 5:23-24) He teaches people to become citizens of heaven. His sermon on the mount gives some glimpses of heavenly living. Surprisingly the cross symbolises the vertical and horizontal love.
    There will be confusion for a superficial reader of Gospels. Jesus mostly speaks in parables. “ cut your right hand’ pluck your right eye, you are the salt/light of the earth, I am the bread of life, I am the good shepherd, I am the way, truth and the life” I am the Alpha and the Omega etc. He knows His people and who will come to heaven.
    “Whoever belongs to the truth listens to me (Jn 18:37)
    “Whoever have ears let them hear “ (Mtt 11:15)
    Many are called but few are chosen” (Matt 22:14)
    “Not everyone seeing sees; not everyone hearing hears “(Mtt 13:13)
    “Broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it: narrow is the road that leads to life; and few will find it” (Mtt 7:13-14)
    Unless you are chosen, you will deny Him as a bastard, a hypocrite. I know you are atheists/agnostics. You hate a punishing God. Fredrick Nietzsche, the patron saint of “Existentialism” and “Post Modernism” too hated Jesus. “God is dead” said this great philosopher, but ended up his life as a mad man, through syphilis. The first principle of civilization is controlling our impulse.(Will Durant) You will find lot of restraints in the Bible.
    I know you will refute every word I said here as the Bible is a fairy tale, or reminds me the crusades defending Jerusalem, or the Spanish Inquisition, the purging of the influence of Muslims/Jews under the 800 year Islamic rule or the reformation, or the burning of the witches etc.
    “The mind indeed is willing but the flesh is weak; therefore watch and pray” said Jesus. Christianity bounced back.
    Anyhow I appreciate your kindness. You don’t want to punish anyone. You look gentler than Jesus. In your heaven I can imagine, Adolf Hitler and Mother Theresa sitting side by side smiling and chatting.

  4. why? says:

    Steve says:
    ================================================
    The problem in Christianity is not Jesus but fanatics, violence and hatred is is not supported by Jesus at all. Please be honest and accept that, I am 100% atheist but I accept that point from the Christians. this is the difference between Islam and Christianity the hateful and violent behaviour of the Muslims can be traced back to Muhammed, you cannot trace any violence and hate back to Christ.
    ================================================

    Sorry Steve. You have NOT studied bible properly then. Neither have you read my previous arguments in some other topics. I will bring back some of those arguments. Nowhere Jeebus said in his teachings that any of the OT laws (especially the 10 commandments or stoning laws or capital punishments, exception is dietary law) are invalid.

    NOTE THIS STEVE CLEARLY IN YOUR MIND.

    JEEBUS’ TEACHINGS OF LOVE, COPASSION AND KINDNESS WERE LIMITED TO ONLY SOCIAL RELATIONSHIPS IN A SOCIETY.

    NOWHERE JEEBUS SAID MOSES’ LAWS AND LAWS OF GOD (10 COMMANDMENTS, STONING FOR ADULTERY OR DISOBEYING PARENTS) WERE INVALID.

    JEEBUS AND FIRST CHRISTIANS BELIEVED IN CAPITAL PUNISHMENTS DISHED OUT BY RULING AUTHORITIES.

    your jeebus and first Christians have approved both OT punishments and laws and also capital punishments dished out from ruling authorities. They do NOT oppose any of these capital punishments…..

    Matthew 15

    3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; [a] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’[c] Thus you have made the commandment[d] of God of no effect by your tradition.

    Clearly here jeebus explicitly says that god’s commandment is death for anybody who curses his father or mother…If it is god’s commandment then jeebus obviously approves this teaching of OT….if jeebus approves death for insulting parents, then surely he approves death punishment for ADULTERY which is god’s commandment as well….He does NOT see any moral or ethical conflict here….

    Now lets see if first Christians saw any conflict in capital punishments dished out by governments…

    Hebrews 10

    28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

    Here clearly Paul approves the OT death punishments for rejecting Moses’ law….that it is JUST…Paul compares that to using jeebus sacrifice to sin will result in even more serious punishment..

    NOTE: We have seen now that there is no MORAL or ETHICAL impediment to capital punishment awarded in OT for violating Moses’ laws either by first Christians or even jeebus himself…

    Now the next step is if there is any objection or do the first Christians or jeebus approve implementation of these capital punishment….If proven, then Christianity has no problem in implementing these laws as well….Do they or do they not?

    At no point, however, does Jesus deny that the State has authority to exact capital punishment.

    John 19:11

    11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above.”

    When Pilate calls attention to his authority to crucify him, Jesus points out that Pilate’s power comes to him from above that is to say, from god. State authority to punish comes from god as per jeebus himself.

    Romans 13

    Submit to Government

    4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

    Paul repeatedly refers to the connection between sin and death. He writes to the Romans, with an apparent reference to the death penalty, that the magistrate who holds authority “does not bear the sword in vain; for he is the servant of God to execute His wrath on the wrongdoer” (Romans 13:4). No passage in the New Testament disapproves of the death penalty.

    TRADITION:

    Turning to Christian tradition, we may note that the Fathers and Doctors of the Church are virtually unanimous in their support for capital punishment, even though some of them such as St. Ambrose exhort members of the clergy not to pronounce capital sentences or serve as executioners. To answer the objection that the first commandment forbids killing, St. Augustine writes in The City of God:

    The same divine law which forbids the killing of a human being allows certain exceptions, as when God authorizes killing by a general law or when He gives an explicit commission to an individual for a limited time. Since the agent of authority is but a sword in the hand, and is not responsible for the killing, it is in no way contrary to the commandment, “Thou shalt not kill” to wage war at God’s bidding, or for the representatives of the State’s authority to put criminals to death, according to law or the rule of rational justice.

    HISTORY OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT FOR ADULTERY IN CHRISTIAN NATIONS:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Judaism

    By strangulation (similar to hanging) the following six crimes are punished: 1. Adultery (Lev. xx. 10; Deut. xxii. 22; Sanh. xi. 1, 52b; Sifra, Ḳedoshim, ix. 11; Sifre, Deut. 241; see Adultery)

    The crimes punished in rabbinic law with death by burning are accordingly the following ten: 1. Sex ( to be referred to as “criminal conversation”) by a priest’s daughter (Lev. xxi. 9; Sanh. ix. 1, 76a; Sifra, Emor, i. 14 et seq.)

    Stoning is well known punishment for adultery…..

    Christians in history have punished adultery with death.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery#Europe

    Before the 20th century, adultery was often punished harshly. In Scandinavia, in the 17th century, adultery and bigamy were subject to the death penalty, although few people were actually executed.[122] Examples of women who have been executed for adultery in Medieval and Early Modern Europe include Maria of Brabant, Duchess of Bavaria (in 1256), Agnese Visconti (in 1391), Beatrice Lascaris di Tenda (in 1418), Anne Boleyn (in 1536), and Catherine Howard (in 1542). The enforcement of adultery laws varied by jurisdiction. In England, the last execution for adultery is believed to have taken place in 1654, when a woman named Susan Bounty was hanged.

    Christian historical interpretation of adultery as crime deserving of capital punishment proves my point further about jeebus opinion on adultery…

    All your arguments are again strawman and misinterpreting without connecting all the points I have raised….

    For over 2000 years jews did not stone adulterers…does this mean Judaism does Not have this teaching…Its in the bible….Non-application of any law does NOT mean it is as per Christian law..

    CONCLUSION:

    Many of the physical violence that christian nations and catholic church controlling these christian nations implemented through crusades and inquisitions are very much part of biblical christianity and approved by jeebus himself.

    It also included practice of slavery, sexual slavery and trading slaves.

  5. why? says:

    Steve says:
    ================================================
    Unfortunately I can’t get videos at the moment, so if you to link it will have to be to a webpage.
    =================================================

    Sorry..There are no webpages for this. Besides, it is NOT as effective as seeing the videos where even the converts explain what is going on with their own mouths. You will have to see the youtube video links to understand what is going on.

    Steve says:
    ================================================
    No slavery and sexual slavery was practised in Roman Empire a LONG time before it adopted Christian, do not confuse the behaviour of empires and rogue “Christian” states with the teachings of Jesus two very different things.
    =================================================

    NO…please go through my previous argument for this. I cannot repeat again and again.

    Its simple. Jeebus who viciously attacked Pharisees as synagogue of satan, one who overturned tables in the temple for making the temple a den of thieves, did NOT utter ONE SINGLE word against slavery or sexual slavery. Jeebus was quite aware of slavery (so many parables used with slavery as an example) and he was even aware of rabbis owning maids in gospels. YET NOT ONE SINGLE WORD AGAINST SLAVERY or SEXUAL SLAVERY.

    Christian nation were NOT rogue, they were following christianity. It is christianity which approves slavery, both in NT and OT. NT nowhere criticizes slavery.

    Steve says:
    ================================================
    Clearly they don’t he did not preach or practice violence and in fact forbade it.
    =================================================

    Nowhere jeebus forbade legally and scripturally ordained punishments. For example, stoning laws for adultery or for disobeying parents. Jeebus openly told his followers and others that god ordained stoning as a penalty and that Moses’ laws are to be obeyed.

    Matthew 23

    2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.

    3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

    Matthew 15:3

    For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; [a] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’

    Jeebus himself admits that God commanded these laws, which means Jeebus approved these laws irrespective of context in which jeebus made this statement .

    Steve says:
    ================================================
    Firstly this is from Paul why we should listen to him? He never knew or ever even met Jesus. 2) further down 27 it says “If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put in front of you without raising questions of conscience”. It says 32 “do not cause anyone to stumble whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many so that they may be saved.” Paul is saying to Christians you should eat not meat sacrificed to pagan gods – and that’s it – he is not preaching hatred against Jews or even pagans. Again it seems you are trying to interpret the words in the worst way you can think of.
    =================================================

    Neither have you met Jeebus, so why should I take your word for it.

    Paul is more close to Jeebus and his disciples than others. It is definite he knows better about jeebus than you or me, who are 2000 years after Jeebus.

    Jeebus also taught that those who reject his teachings, their end will be worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. This is the hatred that jeebus himself had for non-believers and jeebus himself believed unbelievers are evil.

    What Paul is saying is NOT mere eating rules. He is making a statement on unbelievers in general as devil worshipers and belonging to devil. THIS IS blind HATRED. Paul also says explicitly that unbelievers are evil and vile.

    2 Corinthians 6:14:

    Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

    Steve says:
    ================================================
    Yes and they call it old for a reason – because they no longer believe it is valid.
    ================================================

    Who said OT is NOT valid? Nowhere jeebus said OT or Moses laws are invalid. In fact Jeebus explicitly asked his followers to obey Moses’ laws.

    Matthew 23

    2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.

    3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

  6. why? says:

    Madfijian,

    You are NOT only an arrogant fool, but a typical LIAR. You think by hearing about a few books on Indrajaal, you have “experienced” effects of black arts or abhichara. If this is your thinking you are one ignorant fool. My question is have you really experienced effects of black arts in your life? NO….It is obvious you have NOT.

    C’mon, walking on fire or taking a stroll on fire. This is NOT the typical bull shit I am talking about. Have you seen second degree burns from scalding hot water heal instantly in front of your eyes because of mantras? NO…What you have seen is some guy supposedly walking on hot fire. There is simple explanation for these things. There is a layer of ash which prevents burns when you walk over it. Walking on white hot rocks with layer of ash or something is nothing miraculous (Beqa tribe). These are NOT the things I am talking about. Have you seen with your own eyes people healing instantly second degree burns? NO….You are just recounting some things you heard from others from net.

    Now how much of Sanskrit did you really study? Do you think just reading some basic Sanskrit alphabets in school makes you an expert in Sanskrit? Have you studied anything significant in Sanskrit? Do you have a degree in Sanskrit? What Vedanga did you study seriously to read Vedas? Name one text and lets see if you can even discuss any serious Vedic concept? It is obvious your knowledge of Sanskrit is seriously lacking. You have NOT demonstrated any knowledge of Sanskrit here. There is NOT one single statement made by you that displays your knowledge of Sanskrit. You claim to be reading Gita. Let me see if you can discuss anything significant in this text with your claim of knowledge of Sanskrit.

    When I criticize Christianity or Islam, I provide proper logical arguments. I do NOT whine like you making ad-hominem attacks. I study their theology and their books, analyze them logically and then criticize them. What do you do? You come up with ad-hominem attacks calling me bigot, you cannot come up with anything logical but some idiotic claims about mediums and EVP and you expect others to get impressed on this.

    A bigot is someone who without knowing of anything about a religion, is intolerant and criticizes it. You would fit in this definition perfectly. My criticism is based on correct knowledge of these religions, Islam and Christianity, both theologically and historically. It is NOT based on mere bigotry. If you have offered proper response to criticism, I will accept my fault. None of you were able to say anything against my logical arguments provided by me.

    Even you who thought that I am atheist by your own words initially approved my arguments.

    Madfijian says: “All this while you were going after Christians and i thought OK perhaps an atheist. Now we know what is under all that hate. ANOTHER FREAKING RELIGION.”

    So in your own words, if an atheist criticizes a religion (even illogically) it is fine. However if a believer criticizes another religion logically it is bigotry. NOW THIS IS CALLED BIGOTRY, FOR YOUR CRITICISM OF ME IS BASED ON IRRATIONAL EMOTIONAL FEELINGS IN YOUR MIND, NOT BASED ON LOGICAL ARGUMENTS.

    YOU HAVE SHOWN YOURSELF AS AN ANTI-RELIGIOUS BIGOT WITH NO PROPER LOGICAL ARGUMENT, BUT ONLY BASED ON MERELY YOUR IRRATIONAL EMOTIONAL FEELINGS.

    YOU HAVE SHOWN YOURSELF AS AN IGNORANT ARROGANT ASS WHEN IT COMES TO VEDAS. ONE WHO THINKS VEDAS TEACH POLYTHEISM IS A FOOL.

  7. madfijian says:

    Why! It is obvious that you are a Hindu apologist and or a Hindu Supremacist. All this while you were going after Christians and i thought OK perhaps an atheist. Now we know what is under all that hate. ANOTHER FREAKING RELIGION.

    You know the funny thing is that in Fiji since i was 6 years old i have witnessed almost all of the stuff you describe. Fiji has a very large population of Indians and they have brought with them all sorts of shit. Yes i have been privy to dark magic and the dark arts. In Fiji its refereed to as “Jadu”. Books like Indarjal is used in Fiji quite a lot. Most of the stuff you talk about is second nature to us. My point is i have seen Muslims perform extraordinary things, Christians do the same and Hindus do the same. Their is a Tribe in Fiji who walk on hot fire like they are going for a stroll. An Entire tribe of people not one or 2. They do not prepare like Hindus do they just build a fire and start walking. It is a common tourist attraction. Oh and they heal any burn just by touching and guess what they are not Hindu they are Christians. The issue is this and my posts reflect it that their is something profoundly spiritual going on and i am open minded to what it may be you on the other hand you simply rant on about how screwed Christianity is and claim the higher ground by ranting on and on about Hinduism.

    You calling me an anti religious bigot. I wonder what you are then when you go after Christians and Muslims. You don’t like it when the shoe is on the other foot.
    I have no problem with proclaiming that i do not like organized religion. And the reason is simple they make people behave like you. Nothing but a bigoted close mined fool who cant see his own bigotry but calls others bigots. Now go read your Vedas.

    By the way i have been studying Sanskrit since i was 5 it used to be compulsory learning for all people of Indian background in Fiji. Stop making wild claims about people who you don’t know.

    This is my last post to you. You are an angry,arrogant fool who i would rather not converse with. As they say in Fiji ” Moce mada Boci”

  8. why? says:

    Madfijian,

    You are an arrogant obstinate fool who thinks only you have experienced something about so called supernatural. Only a fool will claim he has read the four books of Vedas. Are you a Sanskrit expert to read the 4 books of Vedas and understand everything there? It is obvious you do NOT know the very basics of Sanskrit. It takes at the lelast 25 years to study all vedangas (grammar, etymology etc.) and Vedas to understand the depth of Vedas. Only idiots who do NOT know anything claim they have read all the 4 Vedas so easily. Otherwise you would NOT have made the foolish statement that Hinduism is full of sex and violence. Anybody who practices, learns and does the very basic meditative exercises in Hinduism would know that the very first step they are taught is practice Brahmacharya (celibacy).

    What you are is a anti-religious bigot, who thinks only he has found evidences for something. You claim as per your experience some medium gave you some information on personal lives only you and your father-in-law knew. Have you heard of terms like “mind-reading” and “auto-suggestion”? You have met one single medium in your life and you think that it is truth. I have met in my life many Hindu people (practicing yoga) who can read my mind, make me tell what they wanted me to tell while making me think I made that statement independently. I have seen persons creating money, gold out of thin air. In my childhood I have seen a woman muttering mantras and healing burns, burns which almost instantly healed in front of my eyes. I have experienced a lot more, even on the dark side (have you heard of abhichaara or black magic?) and came out of it through rituals conducted as per Vedic rituals. However, I do not present any of these as scientific evidence for anything foolishly like you do for mediums. Scientific methods are too restrictive for analyzing some things and will NOT work for many things I have seen and experienced.

    Now will you consider the possibility that the medium and you are fooled by dark entities which are more powerful than you or me and can easily read your minds? Will you consider the possibility that the medium in your proximity or even remotely can read minds and give auto suggestions? I have met a guy who can see remotely (remote vision, there is even a technical name in Sanskrit for developing such abilities anjanavidya) say what I did in past and present in US while he was sitting in India. He stunned me with information on which house I stayed, who are my companions, as to why I visited certain religious org (Iskcon which I have no connection presently) which he advised not to visit, disclosed some of my thoughts in past and present with stunning accuracy, predicted about my future etc. None of these experiences swerve me from the truth I have been looking into.

    Madfijina Says:
    ========================================
    THE REALITY OF INSTRUMENTAL TRANSCOMMUNICATION VOICES SCIENTIFICALLY DEMONSTRATED ON 5TH DECEMBER 2004 DURING EXPERIMENTS WITH MARCELLO BACCI AT GROSSE TO ITALY, EUROPE
    By: Dr Anabela Cardoso(1), Dr Mario Salvatore Festa (2), Prof David Fontana (3) and Dr Paolo Presi (4)
    ==========================================

    Really!!!! This is your source of evidence for your beliefs. Electronic voice phenomenon!!!!!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon#Natural_explanations

    Go read the above link. and please do NOT waste my time again.

  9. why? says:

    Steve says:
    +=============================================
    Caesar wasn’t a Jew he was pagan and Jewish law wasn’t enforced anywhere in the Roman Empire so he obviously did not mean that by “give unto Caesar”.
    +=============================================

    MY HAND ON MY HEAD AND I AM SHAKING MY HEAD….Is this the level of understanding you have Steve?

    Jeebus statement was NOT on Caesar. It is a statement on obeying god’s (Moses’) laws. This is the understanding first christians and christians in general had about the interpretation of this statement. What if the King or ruler goes against god of christians?

    We must obey God rather than any human authority’ (Acts 5:29)

    Now lets go back to the verses and see what Jeebus meant.

    Mark 12

    13and they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, that they may ensnare him in discourse, 14and they having come, say to him, ‘Teacher, we have known that thou art true, and thou art not caring for any one, for thou dost not look to the face of men, but in truth the way of God dost teach; is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar or not? may we give, or may we not give?’ 15And he, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, ‘Why me do ye tempt? bring me a denary, that I may see;’ 16and they brought, and he saith to them, ‘Whose [is] this image, and the inscription?’ and they said to him, ‘Caesar’s;’ 17and Jesus answering said to them, ‘Give back the things of Caesar to Caesar, and the things of God to God;’ and they did wonder at him.

    CONTEXT:

    Pharisees were planning to snare jeebus in a cunning manner. If Jeebus answered positively, jeebus would be seen as an agent of Caesar agaist god. If jeebus answered negatively, jeebus would be seen as enemy of Rome and Caesar. Either way he will be caught and punished, either for blasphemy or for rebellion against the state. In this situation, as usual Jeebus was shrewd enough to escape this trap. How did he do this? By intelligently exposing the Jew who asked this question and asking the typical rhetorical questions back to the questioner.

    The final statement ‘Give back the things of Caesar to Caesar, and the things of God to God’ made by jeebus begs the question as to what belongs to god and what belongs to Caesar.

    Before answering this question, why did jeebus always ask rhetorical questions or seemingly not so clear answers, instead of clearly answering the question directly. Refer the following book.

    =quote================================
    The Gospel of Luke By Joel B. Green
    Owen Ball (“Rabbinic Rhetoric,” 4) observes that the exchange between Jesus and his questioners follows a pattern of interrogation found in rabbinical literature soon after the first century C.E.: “(1) An outsider puts a hostile question to the rabbi; (2) the rabbi responds with a counter-question; (3) by answering the counter-question the outsider becomes vulnerable; and (4) the rabbi makes use of the opening provided by the vulnerable answer to refute the outsider’s challenge.” Although Owen-Ball’s analysis focusses on the Markan account, the Lukan more closely fits the pattern.)
    =unquote==============================

    Jeebus’ answers follow the typical rabbinical rhetoric given above. Now lets go the jeebus’ account here.
    It is clear that the Pharisees here trapped Jeebus with a question. How does Jeebus get out this snare?
    By asking a counter-question that will expose the outsider to attacks.

    15And he, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, ‘Why me do ye tempt? bring me a denary, that I may see;’ 16and they brought, and he saith to them, ‘Whose [is] this image, and the inscription?’ and they said to him, ‘Caesar’s;’

    How were the outsiders exposed here by this question? To answer this some research on the “Denary” is required?

    Tiberius was the Roman ruler who may have been a contemporary to Jeebus’ time. These Roman rulers regarded themselves as god and sons of god.

    =+quote=========================
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Tiberius*.html

    After the defendant had been condemned, this kind of accusation gradually went so far that even such acts as these were regarded as capital crimes: to beat a slave near a statue of Augustus, or to change one’s clothes there; to carry a ring or coin stamped with his image into a privy or a brothel, or to criticize any word or act of his.
    =-unquote=======================================================

    =+quote=========================
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribute_penny

    The tribute penny was the coin that was shown to Jesus when he made his famous speech “Render unto Caesar…”

    The Greek text uses the word dēnarion,[1] and it is usually thought that the coin was a Roman denarius with the head of Tiberius. It is this coin that is sold and collected as the “tribute penny,” and the Gospel story is an important factor in making this coin attractive to collectors.[2] The inscription reads “Ti[berivs] Caesar Divi Avg[vsti] F[ilivs] Avgvstvs” (“Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus”), claiming that Augustus was a god. The reverse shows a seated female, usually identified as Livia depicted as Pax.
    =-unquote=======================================================

    Now this “Denary” is a coin with the “image” of Tiberius and an inscription circumscribed around Tiberius’ image claiming to be son of a god. Even death sentence was given for taking such coins to toilets or brothels.
    Such coins were an affront to Jewish laws on idolatry (First and second commandment). The question was asked by Jeebus in a temple premises. By making the outsider answer the question on the coin image and inscription, the outsider is accused by Jeebus of going against the Moses’ laws (first and second commandment of god), namely do not make images or thou shalt no other god before me. Thus outsider is first open to attacks of going against Moses’ and even god’s own laws.

    Jeebus by saying

    ‘Give back the things of Caesar to Caesar, and the things of God to God;’ and they did wonder at him.
    is NOT approving Caesar’s rule here. It is against god’s laws to proclaim others as god before the god of Israel. So what did jeebus mean here? Jeebus’ answer begs the question, what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to the god of Israel. Obviously the coin is an affront to god of Israel and Jeebus is NOT approving the image or the inscription on the coin and that too inside a temple of god of Israel.

    The god of Israel even claims temporal powers in addition to eternal powers of being “the only god” to himself.

    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16204

    Chaggai – Haggai – Chapter 2

    8 The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine, says the Lord of Hosts.

    Vayikra – Leviticus – Chapter 25

    23The land shall not be sold permanently, for the land belongs to Me, for you are strangers and [temporary] residents with Me.

    The land (Leviticus – Chapter 25:23), gold and silver (Haggai 2:8), first-born of humans and animals(Exodus 13:2,12,13), first harvest (Deuteronomy 26:2) all are properties of god of Israel.

    Tiberius or Caesar’s rule is NOT only challenging the temporal power of god of Israel, but also his eternal power (blasphemy) here. Jeebus is obviously NOT approving Caesar’s rule here.

    Jeebus, after exposing the outsider, is saying to the people and outsider that if you believe in god of Israel, then give unto god of Israel what belongs to him and if you believe in Caesar, give it to Caesar.

    By leaving the question open to interpretation (1.) as to what belongs to god of Israel and what belongs to Caesar to the faith of people; and (2.) exposing the outsiders (Pharisees who carry blasphemous coins inside the temple) for the hypocrite Pharisees are, Jeebus (a.) escapes the snare of Pharisee outsiders and (b.) also cleverly establishes that he is a learned Rabbi by asking people there “does everything including the Caesar belong to the one god of Israel or not”. Jeebus is NOT approving Caesar’s claim to the status of god (blasphemy) or to his temporal powers (rule over Israel and its wealth) here.

  10. why? says:

    Steve says:
    =============================================
    You are talking about things from hundreds of years ago.

    Those secular ideas arose in a Christian culture,
    ==============================================

    NO…..You are forgetting that these events (application of barbaric christian shariah laws) consistently span over 1600 years and it is NOT that it happened only in some isolated time period of a few decades.

    Two, you forget that the secular ideas did NOT exist for over 1600 years in christian nations and showed its face ONLY after so many years as a reaction against christian barbarism.

    Steve says:
    =============================================
    In my view their are several interpretations of Jesus
    =============================================

    I do NOT care what interpretation people give. Do you have any proper objection to the interpretation I have given. Jeebus could be a mix of all the interpretations.

    Steve says:
    =============================================
    if he approved law he would had her stoned,
    =============================================

    It is clear you have neither read the events properly nor do you know what the bible teaches. Please go back and read the bible properly before you argue with me again. Please do NOT waste my time.

    jeebus condoning the adulteress story….if you read the verses you can see that some jews were trying to set up jeebus for going against mosaic laws regarding stoning adulteress and adulterer….

    jeebus was shrewd enough to know that guys are trapping him by getting only the woman and not the man who committed adultery. Jewish law requires both adulterer and adulteress to be caught red handed doing sexual intercourse by two witnesses minimum. Besides execution of adulterers has to be decided by a jewish courts, judges etc. and not by mob rule where a mob kills arbitrarily some adulteress..

    jeebus saw conspiracy and cleverly came out of the situation by asking the mob one who is NOT guilty of sin to FIRST THROW THE STONE….

    What did he mean by this? Jeebus said that as per old testament law, one who bears false witness is guilty of the same crime and punishment as the one the false witness is casting on the victim….Here is OT evidence

    Deuteronomy 19:16-21 “If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing, 17 “then both men in the controversy shall stand before Yahweh, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. 18 “And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, 19 “then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. 20 “And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. 21 “Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

    If what jeebus said is against moses laws, he would have been caught by these jews and prosecuted for blasphemy against Mosaic laws. However, clearly the jews understood that jeebus meant that anyone who FIRST CASTS A STONE would be taken to judges and his witness examined. If his testimony is found false (especially absence of adulterous man here), they would be executed with same punishment as adultery. Therefore, jews beat a fast retreat and went back.

    This has nothing to do with jeebus abolishing capital punishment, but a shrewd jeebus escaping intelligently the trap laid down by the jews.

    John 8:7

    So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    “Let him first cast a stone at her”

    The commentator Ellicott explains beautifully that jeebus was asking the witness(es) to step forward first and cast a stone at her…….

    Ellicott’ Commentary: “Let him first” means “let him first of you”; not “let him cast the first stone.” This was the duty of the witnesses.

    Clearly, jeebus wanted the witness(es) to step forward first and STONE the set-up adulteress (false actress as adulteress) before others do it…This is requirement of Mosaic law…..

    Steve says:
    =============================================
    This is why he had many female disciples and remained celibate his whole life?
    =============================================

    This proves nothing against jeebus’ silent approval of slavery or sexual slavery in the bible.

    Just because jeebus did NOT punish people by stoning (he was NOT in a position to judge others as jeebus was not a judge), does it mean jeebus did NOT approve stoning…DOES IT MEAN JEEBUS WAS AGAINST MOSES’ LAWS like stoning?

    By his own words jeebus admits explicitly that stoning is a god given law.

    Matthew 15:3

    For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; [a] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’

    Jeebus himself admits that God commanded these laws, which means Jeebus approved these laws irrespective of context in which jeebus made this statement . NOTICE HOW YOU DISREGARD THE EXPLICIT STATEMENT OF JEEBUS WHICH SAYS ONE IS TO OBEY MOSES’ LAWS.

    Matthew 23

    2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.

    3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

    MOSES LAWS INCLUDE THOSE OF SLAVERY AND SEXUAL SLAVERY.

    SIMILARLY, JUST BECAUSE JEEBUS DID NOT HAVE SLAVES, IT DOES NOT MEAN HE WAS AGAINST SLAVERY OR SEXUAL SLAVERY PARTS MENTIONED IN OLD TESTAMENT AND CONSIDERED IT AS EVIL, ESPECIALLY JEEBUS BEING A BELIEVING JEW.

    Jeebus has mentioned in several places parables with slavery as focus. Jeebus was acutely aware of all the Jewish laws, including those of slavery. Yet jeebus did NOT utter ONE SINGLE WORD against sexual slavery or slavery.

    I MADE THIS ARGUMENT WITH PHOENIX BEFORE. I CANNOT REPEAT IT FOR EVERY PERSON AGAIN AND AGAIN.

  11. madfijian says:

    Why! Boy you certainly are a angry Hindu. Everyone is a waste of time but you. First of all i am married to a formally devout Hindu, who’s parents were religious nuts like you and i lived with them for 15 years. While they were good people their religion never made sense. In the course of the 15 years i studied their faith as a point of interest.
    I have read the 4 books of the Vedas and am currently reading the Gita. Nothing about what i read points to any evidence just like nothing in either the Quran or the Bibles points to any evidence.For all intents and purposes Hinduism is full of violence and sex just like all other mass belief systems. Aside from the theory of reincarnation and cause and effect in other words Karma nothing else really took my fancy. I admit i really have not studied Budhaism is detail so far but i have a fair working knowledge of what it entails and it does not appear to be to different to Hinduism in its basics principals.

    Now lets talk about my evidence.

    I believe that souls do re-incarnate. My evidence: Read doctor Stevenson’s work on this. He has done a case study of 2000 cases and written a book on the subject. Read Dr. Michael Newtons Book on the matter. He is a pioneer in Hypnotic Regression. While these do not prove conclusively that we reincarnate like how i would be able to show you a tomato for instance it is very good research done by esteemed people and if you read their work with an open mind it is quite convincing.

    You talk about BS mediums. Well here is my actual experience. My father in law who is now deceased was very close to me and we were more friends than family. After his death 6 years ago i visited a physical medium in Australia. If you do not know what a physical medium is you should look it up. Essentially the person is able to channel dead spirits through them.

    I live in Fiji, asked for a session with the circle in Melbourne (usually at least 10 people are present). I was asked for my name and that was it. For your information during this seance as they are called i met my father in law in spirit form. I talked with him about things only him and i knew and touched him and felt him. We talked for over 15 minutes and i did this twice. The total experience is a bit hard to describe but i have no doubts that i met him in spirit. Many many people have experienced these reunions if you care to investigate it.

    If you want more evidence how about reading this study:

    HE REALITY OF INSTRUMENTAL TRANSCOMMUNICATION VOICES SCIENTIFICALLY DEMONSTRATED ON 5TH DECEMBER 2004 DURING EXPERIMENTS WITH MARCELLO BACCI AT GROSSE TO ITALY, EUROPE
    By:
    Dr Anabela Cardoso(1)
    Dr Mario Salvatore Festa (2)
    Prof David Fontana (3)
    and Dr Paolo Presi (4)

    Google this and read. Its based on the phenomena called EVP which is being researched by many well qualified individuals and organizations.

    I can go on listing empirical evidence researched and documented by people smarter than us certainly more than you. The information that is coming out of all this contact with the spirit world is very similar and conforming despite religious, cultural and nationalities. And the message is simple, religions have no bearing on what happens to you after death,nada,nothing 0. Your actions on this planet is what matters nothing else.

    Even after all this i am still content to say that i still do not know enough to say that i have a particular belief. I am happy to say i do not know. Point is when you have such a rigid mind you are no better than any other religious nut on this or any either website. I simply think that their is a power greater than us and i happy to say that i still do not know who what or how it affects all of us nor how it fits into the greater scheme of things.

    Please do not bother replying. I Think you waste my time. You are a religious bigot period who is exactly like the Christians and Muslims you seem to dislike so much. While you so candidly say that you don’t care if any one coverts or not to Hinduism you are still paddling the virtues of your dumb faith and that too without evidence. You respect no one and the fact that you prefer to spell Jeebus instead if Jesus deliberately is evidence of your bigotry, intolerance and arrogance.

  12. Steve says:

    Please watch the videos fully and then talk” Unfortunately I can’t get videos at the moment, so if you to link it will have to be to a webpage.

    “There is a very long history of Christians destroying every other local culture from Jews to any other non-christian religion or culture. SLAVERY/SEXUAL SLAVERY spread like wild fire all over the world because of christian believers.” No slavery and sexual slavery was practised in Roman Empire a LONG time before it adopted Christian, do not confuse the behaviour of empires and rogue “Christian” states with the teachings of Jesus two very different things.

    “The story is one of brutality, betrayal and colonial ambition” Yes and what this story has to do with Jesus? Many KKK, white supremacists and neo nazis are “Christians” but where did Jesus teach hatred of black people, Jews and white supremacy? He didn’t since he himself was a Jew from the Middle East.

    “All these acts have basis in teachings of jeebus and his followers.” Clearly they don’t he did not preach or practice violence and in fact forbade it.

    “JEEBUS TAUGHT THAT THOSE WHO REJECT HIS TEACHINGS ARE FIT FOR PUNISHMENT WORSE THAN SODOM AND GOMORRAH” Firstly this is from Paul why we should listen to him? He never knew or ever even met Jesus. 2) further down 27 it says “If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put in front of you without raising questions of conscience”. It says 32 “do not cause anyone to stumble whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many so that they may be saved.” Paul is saying to Christians you should eat not meat sacrificed to pagan gods – and that’s it – he is not preaching hatred against Jews or even pagans. Again it seems you are trying to interpret the words in the worst way you can think of.

    “FINALLY CHRISTIANITY IS BOTH OT AN NT TOGETHER” Yes and they call it old for a reason – because they no longer believe it is valid.

    “THE BEST WAY TO DESTROY SUCH AN EVIL BARBARIC RELIGION IS TO DEMOLISH ITS ROOT, WHICH IS BELIEF IN JEEBUS CHARACTER, BORN THROUGH ADULTERY” The problem in Christianity is not Jesus but fanatics, violence and hatred is is not supported by Jesus at all. Please be honest and accept that, I am 100% atheist but I accept that point from the Christians. this is the difference between Islam and Christianity the hateful and violent behaviour of the Muslims can be traced back to Muhammed, you cannot trace any violence and hate back to Christ.

  13. Steve says:

    Why

    “How convenient for you Steve? You have forgotten the 1600 years of Christian dictatorships from Theodosius I to until recently (19th century) when Europe and western world was removed from the control of Catholic Church. What are all these but christian theocratic dictatorships..” You are talking about things from hundreds of years ago.

    “The present situation (religious freedom etc.) in western nations is due to secular ideas and NOT due to christianity, but despite of it.” Those secular ideas arose in a Christian culture, both Christian and even more so Judaism encourage learning about “creation” and “Gods laws” (as they call it), and since the bible is not believed to be the literal word of God this allows the Christians and Jews to be more flexible in their interpretation of biblical events and stories (eg Adam and Eve which now most schools of Judaism and many sects of Christianity do not believe to be literally true but a metaphor for human nature (and they accept the evolution also).

    “How do you decide which is true and which is NOT (am not bothered about miracles or virgin birth much, except to disprove and demolish this biblical character when christians insist that jeebus is God and otehr claims)?” In my view their are several interpretations of Jesus 1)the Jesus of the gospels who is a magician and miracle maker, since their is no thing as miracles we know this Jesus can’t be true 2)Jesus (historical Jesus) was a wise sage type giving revolutionary teachings to a primitive dogmatic society, and his original message and teachings had largely being lost by the time Paul had come around and a cult of personality and myths had been created around him in the years after his death. 3) Jesus was a cult leader type and mad man preacher claiming to be the saviour of the Jews and the end of the world would be coming soon. 4) Then Again it’s possible he didn’t exist at all.

    ” He did not allow stoning of woman for technical reasons and knew it was a trap, but approved stoning laws. ” What “technical reasons” if he approved law he would had her stoned,

    ‘ Nowhere jeebus said slavery or sexual slavery is wrong. NOT one word against it, when he could overturn tables in synagogue. Ain’t this strange?” This is why he had many female disciples and remained celibate his whole life? If he was a cult leader like Charles Manson how come he didn’t pimp these women (essentially what sexually slavery is) and have orgies with them?

    “So jeebus approved all kinds of barbaric punishments of OT. Jeebus was never against state instituted capital and other punishments. This is what he meant by give unto Caesar etc.” Caesar wasn’t a Jew he was pagan and Jewish law wasn’t enforced anywhere in the Roman Empire so he obviously did not mean that by “give unto Caesar”.

  14. why? says:

    Steve says:
    ==========================================================
    For instance where are these terror groups in America? Or in Western Europe? Where are the Christian dictatorships?
    ===========================================================

    How convenient for you Steve? You have forgotten the 1600 years of Christian dictatorships from Theodosius I to until recently (19th century) when Europe and western world was removed from the control of Catholic Church. What are all these but christian theocratic dictatorships..

    The present situation (religious freedom etc.) in western nations is due to secular ideas and NOT due to christianity, but despite of it.

    Steve says:
    ==========================================================
    1)You’re characterisation of Jesus as a cult leader type who encouraged violence and blind devotion, I don’t agree with that, overall the character of Jesus is a person of wisdom and compassion and I think the stories of miracles and the such like where added later by some fools (also remember many of the stories in the NT were copied from Judaism and other pagan religions of the time (such as the Virgin birth).

    2) Comparing Islam to Christianity, Islam is a worldly religion it is concerned with power and dominance in this world, remember Muhammed himself fought in countless battles And would kill anyone who did not believe in his claims. In Contrast Christianity is not a political doctrine, Christ was not a statesman or a warlord according to him “give to Caesar what is Caesars and to god what is gods” and his kingdom was not of this world.
    ==========================================================

    How do you decide which is true and which is NOT (am not bothered about miracles or virgin birth much, except to disprove and demolish this biblical character when christians insist that jeebus is God and otehr claims)?

    For example some of the things Jeebus believed are Jonah inside a whale, existence of Adam, Eve etc. How can one believe what he taught?

    This same jeebus believed in stoning laws for adultery (story of adulteress) given by god. Jeebus never said stoning is evil, but claimed it is god given law. He did not allow stoning of woman for technical reasons and knew it was a trap, but approved stoning laws. Nowhere jeebus said slavery or sexual slavery is wrong. NOT one word against it, when he could overturn tables in synagogue. Ain’t this strange?

    Matthew 23
    2″The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
    3So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

    Clearly jeebus again approves Mosaic laws…..

    Are you aware what punishment is there for a person propagating another religion as per Mosiac law? death.

    So jeebus approved all kinds of barbaric punishments of OT. Jeebus was never against state instituted capital and other punishments. This is what he meant by give unto Caesar etc.

    Jeebus teachings of love, compassion etc. was restricted to MERE SOCIAL RELATIONSHIPS. IT WAS NEVER MEANT TO NEGATE MOSAIC LAWS OR ANY OTHER STATE LAWS, INCLUDING CAPITAL PUNISHMENTS OT SAY STATE LAWS REGULATING RELIGIOUS PRACTICES. THE EVIDENCE IS AGAIN IN JEEBUS’ BELIEF IN MOSAIC LAWS BEING APPLICABLE AND OUGHT TO BE OBEYED.

    IT IS CLEAR THAT JEEBUS APPROVED ALL CHRISTIAN SHARIAH LAWS IMPLEMENTED BY CATHOLIC CHURCH THROUGH INQUISITIONS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

    IT IS WITH APPROVAL FROM JEEBUS’ TEACHINGS THAT CATHOLIC CHURCH, CHRISTIAN GOVERNMENTS ETC. IMPLEMENTED DEATH PENALTY, CORPORAL PUNISHMENTS (CUTTING HANDS AND LEGS, EYELIDS, TORTURE IN INQUISITIONS ETC.) AND OTHER FORMS OF TORTURE.

    IT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL TO REMOVE THE FALSE VEIL OF “TEACHINGS OF LOVE” THAT COVERS THE ACTUAL CHARACTER OF JEEBUS. JEEBUS APPROVED EVERY BARBARIC TEACHING OF OT.

  15. Phoenix says:

    Ali Sina,

    A few considerations:

    You said:I said, I don’t believe in infinity. Nothing is infinite including God. Infinity is a process not a number or a thing. It is as real as zero//

    Are you suggesting that infinities lead to contradictions because I think this only applies when using an infinity as a finite number,yes? In Cantor’s Set Theory, infinities can become mathematically coherent, such as the example below.

    ∞[1,2,3…n] – ∞[1,2,3…n] = 0
    ∞[1,2,3…n] – ∞[2,4,6…n] = ∞[1,3,5…n]
    ∞[1,2,3…n] – ∞[2,3,4…n] = 1

    However, are infinities mere logical/mathematical possibilities or empirical possibilities? The former does not neccessairly imply the latter but the latter must analog with the former.
    ===
    You also said:This is actually the predominant theory of physics that the origin of the universe is singularity. While physicist believe this singularity was a point infinitely hot, I don’t agree with that.//

    I agree here too,although I think I read you thought the singularity was an actual event. The singularity is a mere mathematical conception and not an actual material entity/event. Hawking/Penrose posits the idea of a singularity is merely a reference point for the beginning of the big bang. All space/time and mass/energy began at the big bang. There can be no pre-big bang in a material sense. That’s why many materialists have adopted theories like the Wave Theory or M-theory, which are also empirically unproven and logically ungrounded.

  16. why? says:

    Steve says:
    =========================================
    Why, I think you are confusing two issues 1) The behaviour of certain extremist Christian groups which may exist in India (I am not Indian so I don’t know the situation) 2) The teachings of Jesus Christ and the behaviour of the vast majority of Christians and christian groups in the west and other parts of the world. For instance where are these terror groups in America? Or in Western Europe?
    =========================================

    Steve,

    It is clear that you are living in a very insulated world. You know very little about history or even current affairs.

    Second, it is very clear that you have NOT watched the videos I have posted here. Otherwise you will NOT have made the statement “The behaviour of certain extremist Christian groups which may exist in India”.

    Please watch the videos fully and then talk. The first thing when you watch the videos is you observe that all the problems are directly caused by FOREIGN CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES FROM EUROPE, AMERICAS AND AUSTRALIA. These are all western christian missionaries funded by western NGOs and even well-meaning western industrialists. THEY ARE NOT LOCAL CHRISTIANS. THE PROBLEMS ARE CAUSED BY WESTERN MISSIONARIES.

    Second, you very conveniently disregard 1600 year christian iconoclasm all over the world. It has started with Theodosius I. Pagan temples all over Europe were destroyed so completely that the present era in Europe has not even a single functioning pagan temple. When Christians entered other regions, the first thing they did is stamp out other religions. There is a very long history of Christians destroying every other local culture from Jews to any other non-christian religion or culture. SLAVERY/SEXUAL SLAVERY spread like wild fire all over the world because of christian believers.

    The very first thing Vasco-da-gama did is when landing in India, is destroy local temples and murder local people.

    =quote==========================================================
    http://www.hinduwisdom.info/European_Imperialism3.htm

    Refer to Columbus, The Indians, and Human Progress – By Howard Zinn.

    Vasco da Gama came with twenty five ships under his command, of which ten of them contained “much beautiful artillery, with plenty of munitions and weapons! During his visit to Calicut he found twenty trading ships in the harbor. Vasco da Gama plundered them and the 800 odd crew were taken prisoners”.

    Notes author Richard Hall: “With Calicut at his mercy … da Gama told his men to parade the prisoners then hack off their hands, ears and noses. As the work progressed all the amputated pieces were piled in a small boat. The Brahmin who had been sent out by the Zamorin as an emissary was put into the boat amid its new gruesome cargo. He had also been mutilated in the ordained manner”.

    The historian Gaspar Correa is quoted by Hall as to what the Vasco da Gama did next, thus:

    “When all the Indians had thus been executed (sic), he ordered them to strike upon their teeth with staves and they knocked them down their throats; as they were put on board, heaped on top of each other, mixed up with the blood which streamed from them; and he ordered mats and dry leaves to be spread over them and sails to be set for the shore and the vessels set on fire… and the small, vessel with the friar (brahmin) with all the hands and ears, was also sent ashore, without being fired”.

    A message from da Gama was sent to the Zamorin. Written on a palm leaf, it told him he could make a curry with the human pieces in the boat. And the atrocities committed by Vasco da Gama and his men lives in infamy. The story is one of brutality, betrayal and colonial ambition.
    =unquote========================================================

    Also see the history of Inquisition against Hindu instituted by Catholic church itself. THIS IS NOT some isolated incident.

    =quote==========================================================
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

    Fr. Diogo da Borba and his advisor Vicar General, Miguel Vaz had made plans for converting the Hindus. Under this plan Viceroy António de Noronha issued in 1566, an order applicable to the entire area under Portuguese rule:

    I hereby order that in any area owned by my master, the king, nobody should construct a Hindu temple and such temples already constructed should not be repaired without my permission. If this order is transgressed, such temples shall be, destroyed and the goods in them shall be used to meet expenses of holy deeds, as punishment of such transgression.
    =unquote==========================================================

    THIS IS HISTORY.

    If you want to know the current affairs regarding christian missionaries causing havoc among Hindus please watch the videos fully and the talk.

    ===================================================================

    POINTS TO CONSIDER:

    1. CHRISTIANITY HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN AGGRESSIVE RELIGION TERRORISING NON-BELIEVERS HISTORICALLY. THIS HAS BEEN THE MODE OF ITS FOLLOWERS FOR LAST 1600 YEARS.

    2. The present condition in India is not that bad a in history. However, most christian missionaries create havoc, social unrest and indulge in openly intolerant and brazenly violent acts against Hindus. Evidence is in the three videos.

    IT IS IRRELEVANT IF JEEBUS WAS NO STATESMAN. WHAT MATTERS IS WHAT HE TAUGHT AND HOW CHRISTIANS ARE EMULATING HIS TEACHINGS.

    Clearly christiaity and jeebus’ teachings foments hatred and actively encourages destruction of other religions as seen historically and by the acts of present day missionaries. All these acts have basis in teachings of jeebus and his followers.

    HATRED OF UNBELIEVERS STEMS FROM JEEBUS’ TEACHINGS AND FIRST CHRISTIANS’ TEACHINGS:

    1 Corinthians 10:20-21 “But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.”

    JEEBUS TAUGHT THAT THOSE WHO REJECT HIS TEACHINGS ARE FIT FOR PUNISHMENT WORSE THAN SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

    Such teachings are no different than that of Muhammad’s teachings only in respect to hating unbelievers.

    NOWHERE JEBUS TAUGHT THAT RELIGIOUS SHARIAH LAW OF OT ARE NOT APPLICABLE WHEN CHRISTANS RULE. IN FACT JEEBUS APPROVED STONING LAWS AGAINST ADULTERY ETC.

    FINALLY CHRISTIANITY IS BOTH OT AN NT TOGETHER.

    THE BEST WAY TO DESTROY SUCH AN EVIL BARBARIC RELIGION IS TO DEMOLISH ITS ROOT, WHICH IS BELIEF IN JEEBUS CHARACTER, BORN THROUGH ADULTERY.

  17. why? says:

    Madfijian says:
    =======================================
    Religious Nuts everywhere. Even “WHY” turned South. You see the problem with all religions and i mean all including the eastern faiths like Hinduism and Buddhism is this. No evidence full stop.
    ========================================

    How the hell do you know that there is no evidence? Have you seen everything and experienced everything others have experienced madfijian? How dare you call everybody as nuts? You read some books on some mediums and think that mediums are true and decide you know better than others. You saw some bull shit bbc video and decide jeebus is some true character and decide everybody else have NOT seen any evidence for their beliefs. Your standards of evidence are too low then. You do NOT even know what Hinduism teaches or Buddhism teaches (it is obvious you have NOT even read primary Hindu or Buddhist texts), except some hearsay from some idiots and you have decided these have no proof.

    Have you read anything on Hinduism or say Buddhism? Have you put any effort to see if there is any evidence? I am sure you have NOT. So why don’t you get down that thigh horse and accept your ignorance.

    You are as conditioned by your environment as anybody else and do NOT think agnostics do not have per-conceived notions. The only thing that matters is if you have any logical argument against any religion. Otherwise you are wasting my time.

  18. madfijian says:

    Religious Nuts everywhere. Even “WHY” turned South. You see the problem with all religions and i mean all including the eastern faiths like Hinduism and Buddhism is this. No evidence full stop. They all rely on some ancient wisdom written by learned men of the era but men not Gods wrote them and no real evidence exists to prove any of the so called theories. The good thing with us agnostics is that we keep an open mind and look for empirical evidence of which their are many. We also change our minds when presented with convincing information or empirical evidence. For instance i was for a long time quite convinced that their was no one called Jesus ever as the legend created around the so called Jesus of the Bible is repeated in History about a 100 times in almost all dominant cultures of the time. I recently came across a BBC documentary called “did Jesus die on the cross” . While i do not have the you tube link a simple search on you tube will get you to the documentary.
    After watching the video i did a bit more research and I think i am reasonably convinced that their was an avatar a sage or a holy men by the name of Yahushua who was later renamed as the Christ. It is his story that was used as the basis of the Bible and a “legend” was most certainly created from ancient texts and pieces from other cultures predominantly Egypt and Greece. I am certain he never claimed to be either God or his son. The Bible was written by men at least 100 years after his death. While the verdict is still out their on the time after his death it is certain that the NT is a collection of writings which contradict each other therefore not the word of God nor inspired by God.

    Point is we can change our views quickly and we can think critically looking at the evidence. Religious folks in general are just to mentally conditioned to seek the truth.

  19. Vijai Singh says:

    Sure every one has an opinion of some kind, but who really has the right answer?

    In studying the systems of philosophy, it is necessary that the mind adopt a discipline of impartiality and sobriety. It must then be raised to an exalted mental condition through the process of reasoning. This intellectual function is required for the comprehension of recondite and invisible truths of matter and nature.
    http://www.vjsingh.info/creation.html

  20. Steve says:

    “I do not think the end will come in four years”
    Matthew 24:36
    “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only” According to Jesus he would return in that generations lifetime “this generation shall not pass away until all these things come to pass” and “some of those standing here will not taste death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom”. All those people died so this prophecy failed their is no such thing as end of times or resurrection nonsense these are ancient fairy tale nonsense. So to the Christians speaking of “end of times” stop speaking bull**** things.

    P

  21. A.H. says:

    “The Bible is translated (important parts) only in 2,300 languages”

    So what? It is not about translation, but interpretation!

    Nowadays there are about 30,000 christian denominations.

    Every bible reader claims to be led by the same Spirit but arrives to different, even opposite, conclusions.

    It is quite a mess!

  22. A.H. says:

    “I do not think the end will come in four years”

    Matthew 24:36
    “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

  23. Steve says:

    @Why

    “Are you aware of history of christian/Islamic aggression in India? It is NOT mere public preaching that worries Hindus. If you think so, that is an idiotic thinking. Please educate yourself on this first. Hindus never crossed border to impose their belief on anybody, while christians/muslims did so in India in past and continue to use different ploys (from violent to many other means) to destabilize and destroy local cultures. I am sure you are aware of this history. It is NOT as simple as you think. Christians like to paint a rosy picture of their conversion efforts. It is a much more messy world out there. What christianity and islam is doing in the world is fighting a asymmetrical warfare against other cultures and religions. We Hindus are NOT going to sit quietly against such aggression.” Why, I think you are confusing two issues 1) The behaviour of certain extremist Christian groups which may exist in India (I am not Indian so I don’t know the situation) 2) The teachings of Jesus Christ and the behaviour of the vast majority of Christians and christian groups in the west and other parts of the world. For instance where are these terror groups in America? Or in Western Europe? Where are the Christian dictatorships? Their are none. When a person publicly insults Jesus in a Christian country where is the angry mob waiting to kill him (like their would be in Pakistan for instance if someone was accused of insulting Allah or Muhammad?) You’re criticism of Christianity is similar to religious people who say “Ah look at the godless Soviet Union who used to put religious people in labour camps and even torture and kill them and rape the women, this proves what an evil doctrine this atheism must be.”

    “Based on such events, I have decided the best way to tackle these barbaric religions is to demolish their LIES and falsehood.” I agree largely with your criticisms of these religions, but I just disagree with 1)You’re characterisation of Jesus as a cult leader type who encouraged violence and blind devotion, I don’t agree with that, overall the character of Jesus is a person of wisdom and compassion and I think the stories of miracles and the such like where added later by some fools (also remember many of the stories in the NT were copied from Judaism and other pagan religions of the time (such as the Virgin birth). 2) Comparing Islam to Christianity, Islam is a worldly religion it is concerned with power and dominance in this world, remember Muhammed himself fought in countless battles And would kill anyone who did not believe in his claims. In Contrast Christianity is not a political doctrine, Christ was not a statesman or a warlord according to him “give to Caesar what is Caesars and to god what is gods” and his kingdom was not of this world.

  24. why? says:

    Steve,

    First, do NOT take my word “war” literally to mean physical violence. I did NOT mean in literal way. I meant reaction of proportionate magnitude, and NOT like muslims or christians.

    Are you aware of history of christian/Islamic aggression in India? It is NOT mere public preaching that worries Hindus. If you think so, that is an idiotic thinking. Please educate yourself on this first. Hindus never crossed border to impose their belief on anybody, while christians/muslims did so in India in past and continue to use different ploys (from violent to many other means) to destabilize and destroy local cultures. I am sure you are aware of this history. It is NOT as simple as you think. Christians like to paint a rosy picture of their conversion efforts. It is a much more messy world out there. What christianity and islam is doing in the world is fighting a asymmetrical warfare against other cultures and religions. We Hindus are NOT going to sit quietly against such aggression.

    Please watch the following videos and decide how it is affecting Hindus in India.

    Christian Missionary attack on India (part 1 of 3)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Zxjndf0mw

    Christian Missionary attack on India (part 2 of 3)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkvdtzk1pbo

    Christian Missionary attack on India (part 3 of 3)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52Jok2Jzt3s

    Based on such events, I have decided the best way to tackle these barbaric religions is to demolish their LIES and falsehood.

  25. Steve says:

    To Why

    “Hindus in general do NOT care about what other person is following until anybody shoves their belief on them. Then it is war.” Can you tell us what you mean when you say “shoving” their belief on them. Are Christians who hand out bibles and preach about Jesus in public “shoving” their belief on them? Or even an atheist who critisices belief in a creator God or gods and reincarnation doctrine and these gurus who allegedly have paranormal or supernatural ability (like Sai Baba for instance) are they “shoving” their view on Hindus and need to be responded to with violence (war) ? If so it sounds very much like the fascistic attitude that Muslims have to people of other religions and philosophies.

  26. Lizzie
    As far as the end of the world is concerned I incline to believe in the following words of Jesus: “This gospel will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations and then the end will come.” (Mt. 24:14) There are approximately 6000 languages in the world. The Bible is translated (important parts) only in 2,300 languages. There is a linguistics scholar in Melbourne who goes to South African jungle annually to translate the Bible into the language of those who live there. When someone asked “Why the delay in the second coming ofJesus? He replied “It took almost 1600 yrs for the birth of Jesus.(Deuteronomy18:18) God has to prepare and purify only the Jewish race (from idolatory ). For the second coming of Christ, It is different. God has to prepare the whole world. It may take more time” Peter gives an answer for the delay in 2 Peter 3:9.

    When Jesus said “This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled” (Mt.24:34) He refers to the destruction of Jeruslem and the sufferings of the Jews in 70 AD by the Romans and the exodus of Jews as refugees. This happened 37 yrs after the death of Jesus. I think this verse is misplaced. It should have come just after the destruction of Jerusalem. I do not think the end will come in four years
    .
    Our concern should not be when the world will end. Instead our main focus should be to seek God to be spiritually prepared for the times that are coming

  27. why? says:

    Madfijian says:
    ======================================================
    it seems as if you doing exactly what a lot of others on this site are doing i.e. criticizing one dumb faith and advocating another.
    ======================================================

    First, I was limiting myself to criticizing bible based religions, but when one alleged Hinduism of some wrong (not necessarily true) I replied appropriately.

    Second, I do NOT give a damn if one is NOT following Hinduism. It is of NO interest to me to convert anybody, although I am interested in limiting growth of desert religions in particular (all 3 of them).

    Hindus in general do NOT care about what other person is following until anybody shoves their belief on them. Then it is war.

    Third, you have NOT been any different in advocating or voicing your beliefs against Sina or whether it is your belief on NDE being evidence for consciousness independent of brain or your beliefs on mediums (Lenora Piper) to Gezza.

    Do you believe only atheists or non-conventional believers like yourself and NOT organized faith believers should voice their beliefs? Do not expect Hindus to argue like typical abrahamic believers do. Arguments may appear like those of atheists, but they are NOT. Arguments negate some erroneous belief system, but truth cannot be known by mere arguments. Arguments merely remove erroneous beliefs. THIS IS BASIC HINDU TENET ON ARGUMENTS.

  28. why? says:

    Madfijian,

    I AM A HINDU, NOT AN ATHEIST. I can understand your confusion because of what I say.

    I do NOT agree on NDEs being evidence for consciousness independent of brain. NDEs, especially parts of it where people experience allegedly some supernatural, merely are hallucinations according to what people sub-consciously believe.

    I have seen the corrosive effects of desert religions because of their books (especially in India) and therefore oppose it.

    Monotheism is NOT something invented by desert religions. It is there in Vedic texts, when none of the barbaric abrahamic monotheistic were around. These abrahamic religions cannot consistently and logically explain the presence of evil in the world within their framework.

    It is a misconception that Hinduism has “millions of gods (whatever that means in the minds of people)”, that it is polytheistic etc. Vedic religion teaches ONE (eka) independent (svatantra) God (Brahma) and presence of many devatas (much similar to angels of western religions but NOT the same) who are all ever-dependent (paratantra) on ONE GOD. The confusion in western academia is because of lack of understanding of Vedic texts and its language and multiple levels of meanings hidden within Vedic texts. Such multiple meanings are well known in many orthodox Vedic schools. To add to this there is a proliferation of many orthodox schools which insist that Vedic texts teach Monism, pantheism, panentheism, some which do NOT care about God or gods etc. etc. The confusion is because of very long history of Vedic texts beyond what the western academia, which originated under the influence of biblical “history”, is willing to recognize. The longer the history, the harder it is to interpret the texts properly. Many early Vedic commentaries and even some of the important Vedic texts along with ancillary Vedic texts have all disappeared permanently during invasions and even before them. This has lead to confusion of concepts, however certain Vedic schools have unearthed partly or fully the correct concepts based on available material. Monotheism is the correct interpretation of Vedic religion. There are ample verses which show this in Vedic texts all over.

    Ali Sina’s talks are irrational when it comes to insisting about jeebus.

  29. madfijian says:

    Why! I am confused!!!1. Are you an Atheist or a Hindu. You sounded initially like you were an Atheist and then your Pro Hindu posts started and it seems as if you doing exactly what a lot of others on this site are doing i.e. criticizing one dumb faith and advocating another. Hinduism has a about a million Gods and counting. How rational is that. You find Ali Sina irrational talk about the kettle calling the pot black.

  30. Ali Sina says:

    @Ajay

    Infinite means limitless. You can keep adding to it and it can still grow. You can’t add anything to something perfect without undermining its perfection. Let us think of Michael Angelo’s Statute of David. It is nearly perfect. It means that any addition to it, any more work done to it will only make it less perfect.

    God is perfect and therefor does not need any improvement. I think if we think of God as perfect instead as infinite many confusions about Him will be resolved.

  31. why? says:

    PHOENIX SAYS:
    +===================================================
    You’re getting really desperate. I did not say “strI” means slave. In this particular context it could simply mean women, lady, etc, per your own definition source.
    +=====================================================

    THEN IT PROVES NOTHING.

    PHOENIX SAYS:
    +===================================================
    Mahabharata 16:7 “… The Brahmanas and Kshatriyas, and Vaisyas, and wealthy Sudras, set out, keeping before them the 16,000 women that had formed Vasudeva’s *harem*, and Vajra, the grandson of the intelligent Krishna…”

    Ah, there it is! Vasudeva, Krishna’s father, formed a harem (whore house) of more than 16000 women. So that’s where Krishna learned his slave-gifting skills from.

    That should either shut you up or send you into another ridiculous mental gyration.
    +====================================================

    As usual getting quotes from anti-Hindu websites without understanding what the verse says.

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/mbs16008.htm

    daśa (ten) ṣaṭ (six) ca sahasrāṇi (thousand) vāsudevāvarodhanam (wives of vāsudeva or Shri Krishna)

    This is the sanskrit verse.

    http://sanskritdictionary.com/avarodhanam/5046/4

    avarodhanam अवरोधनम्

    Definition: अवरोधनम् 1 A siege, blockade; प्रतारं च समुद्रस्य रात्रौ लङ्कावरोधनम् Rām.1.4.35. -2 Hindering, obstructing. -3 An obstacle, impediment. -4 A closed or private place. -5 The innermost part of anything; यत्र राजा वैवस्वतो यत्रावरोधनं दिवः Rv.9.113.8. -6 The inner or women’s apartments in a royal palace; राजावरोधनवधूरव- तारयन्तः Śi.5.18; अवरोधने स्थास्यति Dk.12. -7 An inmate of the harem, a queen, wife; अवरोधनानि सिन्धोः Śi.8.8. (समुद्रमहिष्यो नद्यः.) –

    1. Here I have given the meaning with which the word avarodhanam is used. It means “an inmate of a royal court where wives or sisters or mothers etc. related to Kings live”. The word here refers to “wives” of King.

    NOTE: Female servants or female-slaves are NOT/NEVER called avarodhanam at all, as they are NOT inmates of antahpura or inner apartments of royal courts where usually wives, mothers, sisters of Kings live.

    2. The word vāsudeva refers to Shri Krishna (note the long ‘ā’ in vāsudeva), while the word vasudeva (with short ‘a’) refers to Shri Krishna’s father.

    Since the translation is NOT clear about this difference in the English translation, the stupid writers in the anti-Hindu website thought this verse refers to Shri Krishna’s father. You copied blindly the erroneous words of the stupid anti-Hindu website writers.

    SO YOUR ARGUMENT THAT SHRI KRISHNA LEARNED IT FROM HIS FATHER IS STUPID AND ERRONEOUS.

    3. There is further evidence in the same Mahabhartha that all these 16000 women are His wives as stated in Bhagavatha and these women were NOT female-slaves.

    =QUOTE========================================
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m18/m18005.htm

    Through the command of the Grandsire, he, aided by his Yoga power, supported the Earth. Vāsudeva was a portion of that eternal god of gods called Narayana. Accordingly, he entered into Narayana. 16,000 women had been married to Vasudeva as his wives. When the time came, O Janamejaya, they, plunged into the Sarasvati. Casting off their (human) bodies there, they re-ascended to Heaven. Transformed into Apsaras, they approached the presence of Vasudeva.
    =UNQUOTE-=========================================

    NOTE: ALL THESE WOMEN ARE KSHATRIYA WOMEN CAPTURED BY A DEMON AS HUMAN SACRIFICE AND THE STORY GOES ON TO SAY THAT SHRI KRISHNA SAVED THEM.

    MANU SMRITI LAW IS CLEAR THAT NO KSHATRIYA IS TO BE ENSLAVED. SO THEY ARE NOT FMALE SLAVES.

    =QUOTE========================================
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_wives_of_Krishna

    Besides eight principal queens,[1] Hindu god Krishna, an avatar of the god Vishnu and the king of Dwarka – in the Dwapara Yuga (epoch), is described to have many unnamed junior wives. Their number is mentioned as 16,000 or 16,100 in different scriptures. Krishna accepted them as his wife upon their insistence to save themselves from the society who saw them as slaves of the demon king Narakasura. The chief amongst them is sometimes called Rohini. They were all kidnapped and held captive by the demon-king Narakasura. When Krishna slew Narakasura, he accepted all the captive women upon their insistence to safeguard their dignity. After marriage, they all lived in Dwarka, in a divine happiness.

    The Bhagavata Purana mentions that the captive women are princesses. The Vishnu Purana says that they are daughters of gods, siddhas (saints), demons and kings. According to the Kalika Purana and the Adi Parva book of the Hindu epic Mahabharata, they were apsaras (celestial maidens).[2][3][9] In the Dana Dharma chapter of the Shanti Parva book of the epic, they are blessed by the goddess Bhudevi to be wives of Krishna.

    Some legends narrate that events in their past life led to them being wives of Krishna. A king had 16,000 daughters. While the king was sitting in court with the princesses, Vishnu arrived disguised as a sage. The daughters flocked around Vishnu, making their father angry who cursed them. When the daughters cried and begged for forgiveness, the king blessed them that in their next birth, they would be wives of Vishnu. In other versions, the damsels plead to others for liberation from the curse. The creator-god Brahma on the advice of his son and divine sage Narada or the sage himself give the princesses the boon to be wives of Vishnu.
    =UNQUOTE-=========================================

  32. why? says:

    Phooenix Says:
    ===================================================
    I’ve confused the two, how so? Your own wiki link says she’s the demon god of all evil. Check the bar on the right hand.

    “Demon god of all evil source, personification of Adharma and archenemy of Vishnu (as Kalki)”
    ==================================================

    “she’s the demon god”….Really!!!! You do NOT see gender difference between the words “god” and “goddess”.

    Are you pretending to be dumb or are you really this dumb Phooenix?

    I will try once again numb skull….

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_%28demon%29

    Observe in above link in the right.

    Kali (right) wielding a sword
    Devanagari कलि
    Sanskrit transliteration Kali
    Affiliation Demon god of all evil source, personification of Adharma and archenemy of Vishnu (as Kalki)

    PLEASE OBSERVE DEVANAGARI SPELLING. THE LETTER “a” in the word “Kali” is pronounced as in “car”. it is short “a”.

    Also observe this “Kali” is a male being.

    NOW SEE THE OTHER LINK.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali

    Observe first the link is different. I HAVE TO SAY THIS FOR YOU. ALSO OBSERVE RIGHT OF THE LINK.

    Goddess of Time (Creation, Change, Preservation, Destruction) and Empowerment
    Devanagari काली
    Sanskrit transliteration Kālī

    OBSERVE the SPELLING Kālī, WHERE “ā” means “aa”. So the word is pronounced “Kaalii”. ALSO OBSERVE THE GENDER DIFFERENCE.
    =====================================

    EVEN A SCHOOL KID CAN SPOT THIS DIFFERENCE NUMB SKULL.

  33. Phoenix says:

    @why?
    TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES WITH COMPLETELY TWO DIFFERENT SPELLINGS IN SANSKRIT. DUE TO LIMITATION OF ENGLISH SCRIPT, YOU ARE FOOLISHLY ASSUMING TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES AS SAME.Demon god of all evil source, personification of Adharma and archenemy of Vishnu (as Kalki)//

    I’ve confused the two, how so? Your own wiki link says she’s the demon god of all evil. Check the bar on the right hand.

    “Demon god of all evil source, personification of Adharma and archenemy of Vishnu (as Kalki)”
    ====
    The verse clearly says “striyo ratnāni” and NOT “strī-ratnāni” where “ratna” is used as adjective of the nominative singular noun “strī” in the second compound word “strī-ratnāni”. This is NOT the case in the verse quoted above. SO your grammar itself is wrong.
    Second, meanings appear as per context. The word “StrI” can mean wife or a woman in general. The actual meaning is contextual. But it never means a slave or dAsi.//

    You’re getting really desperate. I did not say “strI” means slave. In this particular context it could simply mean women, lady, etc, per your own definition source.
    =======
    1. Yes, they are gifts. In Vedic world, servants were given as gift, especially by Kings. Gifts are always without payment. If it was business transaction with money exchange then it is called slave trade. Your point actually proves this is NOT slave trade here. The word gift here is dAna or charity here in Sanskrit//

    Who said anything about slave trade? Not all systems of slavery involve the exchange of money for slaves. Slaves captured in war does not involve exchanging cash. Neither does slaves that are inherited.
    Your claim that they were a charitable gift is absurd, since Pandu was himself a very rich man. Charities are for the needy, not for the mega-rich.
    But is it even plausible to entertain your notion that they were merely Krishna’s servants, who ran a successful domestic help service? Or is Krishna involved in something more sinister. The next passage should clear things up:

    Mahabharata 16:7 “… The Brahmanas and Kshatriyas, and Vaisyas, and wealthy Sudras, set out, keeping before them the 16,000 women that had formed Vasudeva’s *harem*, and Vajra, the grandson of the intelligent Krishna…”

    Ah, there it is! Vasudeva, Krishna’s father, formed a harem (whore house) of more than 16000 women. So that’s where Krishna learned his slave-gifting skills from.

    That should either shut you up or send you into another ridiculous mental gyration.

  34. why? says:

    Phoenix,

    I HAVE CLEARLY PROVEN THAT YOUR DEMONIC BIBLE GOD BY HIS OWN WORDS, CAUSES DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY ALL EVIL.

    1. DIRECTLY THE EFFICIENT CAUSE OF EVIL.

    (Yeshayahu- Isaiah – Chapter 45:7 SAYS BIBLE gOD CREATES EVIL THROUGH AGENTS)

    2. DIRECTLY THE MATERIAL CAUSE OF EVIL

    (Mishlei – Proverbs – Chapter 16:4 SAYS gOD CREATES WICKED MAN FOR THE DAY OF EVIL)

    3. INDIRECTLY BOTH THE MATERIAL AND EFFICIENT CAUSE OF EVIL BEING CREATOR OF EVERYTHING FROM NOTHING.

    (CREATION-EX-NIHILO CONFIRMED IN NT AND OT, ALSO IN JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN TRADITION)

    CONCLUSION:

    CLEARLY JEEBUS’ GOD IS EVIL IN NATURE JUST LIKE ALLAH.
    ====================================================

    I have also shown that bible demon god also commands

    1. LOOTING, 2. SLAVERY, 3. SEXUAL SLAVERY, 4. PEDOPHILIA, 6. HUMAN SACRIFICE.

    I am YET to get ONE SINGLE ARGUMENT AGAINST THIS.

    RITUAL HUMAN SACRIFICE

    Vayikra – Leviticus – Chapter 27

    28 However, anything that a man devotes to the Lord from any of his property whether a person, an animal, or part of his inherited field shall not be sold, nor shall it be redeemed, [for] all devoted things are holy of holies to the Lord.

    29 Any devoting of a person who has been devoted, need not be redeemed [for] he is to be put to death.

    Jephthah Burns His Daughter (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)

    “At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, “If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

    And she said, “Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin.” “You may go,” Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin.

    SEX-SLAVES AND PEDOPHILIA

    More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

    As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

    What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and sexual slavery?

    PEDOPHILIA

    Bamidbar – Numbers – Chapter 31:17-18

    17 So now kill every male child, and every woman who can lie intimately with a man you shall kill.

    18 And all the young girls who have no experience of intimate relations with a man, you may keep alive for yourselves.

    I THINK THIS SHOULD BE ENOUGH TO SHUT YOU UP IF YOU HAVE ANY SANITY. BIBLE GOD IS A TRULY DIABOLICAL DEMONIC ENTITY, FULL OF EVIL.

    DOES ANY CHRISTIAN HAS ONE SINGLE ARGUMENT AGAINST THIS?

  35. why? says:

    Phoenix says:
    ==================================================================
    ==================================================================
    Devi Bhagavatam 4:17:48. Was not the doing of Hari like a thief when he stole away the Lady Rukminî and fled quickly to his own place.
    ===================================================================
    All these characters mentioned above are your religious heroes in other instances, promoting some semblance of morality but above they’ve decided to have a field day raping each others wives.
    =====================================================================

    1. First realize that Puranas are categorized as Sattva (good, those that follow Vedic texts mostly), Rajas (mixed) and Tamas (dark, those that go against Vedic texts mostly).

    2. Most Puranas appear to be sectarian. Each claiming one Vedic God as supreme over other.

    Devi Bhagavatam is a Purana which claims superiority of a female Vedic Goddess. So it will naturally put down others. This is typical in all Puranas. This is why Vedic texts are considered as primary texts before validating anything in Puranas.

    NO…..THERE IS NO RAPE HERE WHATSOEVER IN ALL THESE CASES. THERE ARE HIDDEN INNER MEANINGS IN THESE STORIES AND EVENTS.

    First Devi Bhagavatam 4:17:48:

    It talks about story of Krishna, where Rukmini (unwed girl) is in love with Krishna. Rukmini was forced by her brother Rukmi to marry his demon friend Shishupala.

    =quote=================================
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rukmini

    Rukmini(or Rukmani) is the principal wife and queen of the Hindu God Krishna, the king of Dwaraka. Krishna heroically kidnapped her and eloped with her to prevent an unwanted marriage at her request and saved her from evil Shishupala(described in the Bhagavata Purana). Rukmini is the first and most prominent queen of Krishna. Rukmini is also considered an avatar of Lakshmi, the Goddess of fortune.
    =unquote=================================

    Phoenix says:
    ==================================================================
    ==================================================================
    Devi Bhagavatam 4:15:59-64. Look! The Moon stole away per force knowingly the wife of Brihaspatî; Indra, knowing what is religion stole away the wife of Gautama; Brihaspatî enjoyed forcibly the wife of his younger; and also he outraged his elder brother’s wife in her pregnant state and cursed the boy in the womb and…
    ===================================================================
    All these characters mentioned above are your religious heroes in other instances, promoting some semblance of morality but above they’ve decided to have a field day raping each others wives.
    =====================================================================

    INDRA’S CASE or Brihaspati’s case or Chandra’s (Moon) case:

    There are HIDDEN CONCEPTS IN THESE STORIES which I cannot and WILL NOT disclose fully (Cannot cast pearls before the swines). Neither Indra, nor Brihaspati nor Moon (Chandra) were involved in ANY SEXUAL ENCOUNTERS HERE LIKE A HUMAN BEING…This is wrong understanding of the events.

    As I said earlier, NONE OF THE VEDIC GODS possess any mortal body like human beings. Bodies of Vedic GODS are made of TEJAS (~ately translated as LIGHT). Just as X-ray does NOT molest any person, thus activities of Vedic Gods do NOT molest/pollute any person.

    Indra touching Ahalya, a human being is similar case. It appears like that to Gauthama, a sage. Although the verses say in that manner, however, inner meaning is NOT that. This is atypical interpretation of all Sanskrit literature. It will cast events of Gods as though negative in human terms, but will have hidden concepts and meanings.

    Chandra, Brihaspati’s cases are also similar, but not same. Events between different Vedic Gods also have hidden meanings, beyond the apparent events. Superior Vedic Gods affect the lesser Vedic Gods in a fashion similar to a Vedic God affects human being, like X-ray not molesting a human being. Brihaspati approaching his elder brother’s wife also has hidden meanings. NONE OF THESE INVOLVE SEXUAL ACTIVITIES, BUT SUPERNATURAL ONES. IN ALL THESE CASES NO SEXUAL CONTACT IS INVOLVED AS IN HUMAN BEINGS.

    When a Vedic god touches a lesser being especially a woman, it is always like x-rays passing through our bodies.

  36. why? says:

    Phoenix Says:
    =================================
    http://sanskritdictionary.com/?iencoding=iast&q=ratn%C4%81ni+&lang=sans&action=Search

    ratnāni=jewels
    ratnāni=the jewels on our heads
    strī-ratnāni =beautiful wives .
    strī-ratnāni =beautiful wives

    With or without the term “female slaves”, the context remains clear. These women were the property of Krshna’s and then divided amongst Pandu’s sons.
    ====================================

    Nice try here joker….however it is clear you know nothing about Sanskrit…you cannot find the difference between kali and kAli in Sanskrit even when I explained it before to you…….Read below again….

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/mbs04067.htm

    25 pāribarhaṃ dadau kṛṣṇaḥ pāṇḍavānāṃ mahātmanām
    striyo ratnāni vāsāṃsi pṛthakpṛthag anekaśaḥ

    The verse clearly says “striyo ratnāni” and NOT “strī-ratnāni” where “ratna” is used as adjective of the nominative singular noun “strī” in the second compound word “strī-ratnāni”. This is NOT the case in the verse quoted above. SO your grammar itself is wrong.

    Second, meanings appear as per context. The word “StrI” can mean wife or a woman in general. The actual meaning is contextual. But it never means a slave or dAsi.

    In the verse striyo is genitive dual case. So “striyo ratnāni” can mean “two women (servants) possessing or wearing jewels” or it can also mean “jewels of two women”.

    Besides, the marriage event is one of Pandava sons is getting married here. Observe here carefully what the father of bridegroom (one of the pandavas) is saying blow.

    =quote==========================
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04072.htm

    “Virata said, ‘Why, O best among the Pandavas, dost thou not wish to accept as wife this my daughter that I bestow upon thee?’

    “Arjuna said, ‘Residing in thy inner apartments, I had occasion always to behold thy daughter, and she too, alone or in company trusted me as her father. Well-versed in singing and dancing, I was liked and regarded by her, and, indeed, thy daughter always regardeth me as her protector. O king, I lived for one whole year with her though she had attained the age of puberty. Under these circumstances, thyself or other men may not without reason, entertain suspicions against her or me. Therefore, O king, myself who am pure, and have my senses under control, beg to thee, O monarch, thy daughter as my daughter-in-law. Thus do I attest her purity. There is no difference between a daughter-in-law and a daughter, as also between a son and son’s own-self. By adopting this course, therefore, her purity will be proved. I am afraid of slanderous and false accusations. I accept, therefore, O king, thy daughter Uttara as my daughter-in-law.
    =unquote=============================

    Arjuna is one of the Pandavas, who refused the girl and accepted her as his daughter-in-law. In this context, Krishna is presenting female servants decked with Jewellery to these Pandava brothers. THE FEMALE SERVANTS ARE PAID ROYAL COURT SERVANTS HERE.

    YOU MAY NOT READ SUPERIMPOSE BARBARIC BIBLE TEACHINGS INTO HINDU SCRIPTURES.

  37. why? says:

    Phoenix Says:
    =================================
    First, these women were gifts. It is the transfer from one ownership to the next without payment. Servants are not owned and therefore can’t be shared.
    Second, these women were adorned with beautiful jewels. Servants do not need to be beautified. What? Ugly people can’t do chores?
    =================================

    1. Yes, they are gifts. In Vedic world, servants were given as gift, especially by Kings. Gifts are always without payment. If it was business transaction with money exchange then it is called slave trade. Your point actually proves this is NOT slave trade here. The word gift here is dAna or charity here in Sanskrit.

    By the way in Indian marriage custom there is something called KanyadAna (gifting of a virgin) ritual done by father to the bridegroom. So does this mean it is slave trade? NO…

    In similar sense, dAna of servant girls is NOT slave trade. Slave trade always involves exchange of money.

    2. Second, the very fact that these women were adorned with jewels shows that they are NOT slaves. Slaves are NOT given expensive jewels. They are forced to do without any such payments. These women are servants who work for royalty. In royal court or palaces, these women need to appear well-dressed, properly cared for and SHOULD reflect the wealth of the kingdom.

    These women cannot appear like beggars, especially in marriage time. In modern terms, think about workers in 5 star hotels or servants of Queen Elizabeth or the butlers of millionaires or billionaires. If the servants appear like beggars and cannot afford proper clothing, their employer will provide for the expensive clothes when necessary. This is the same here. Kings in India provide for the servants in their royal courts.

    3. Third, since you quoted from Mahabhartha let me ask you a question. The gifts were given to Pandavas (5 cousins of Shri Krishna) during their marriage festivals. Are you aware of anything about these 5 characters and their stories?

    Nowhere in the entire Mahabharatha, it says anywhere, that any of the 5 Pandava cousins had children outside of their married Kshatriya wives. So, again your claim that Pandavas had sex slaves gifted by Shri Krishna is again wrong.

    4. It is well known in Indian culture that Kings had female servants in royal courts and in their wives’ quarters. These female-servants take care of their wives, mothers, sisters and daughters.

    So none of what you said proves slavery here. It is your imagination and superimposing your barbaric bible in Vedic scriptures.

  38. why? says:

    Phoenix says:
    =======================================
    I did not say she’s good and evil… just evil.

    Bhagavata Purana SB 1.18.6:The very day and moment the Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, left this earth, the personality of Kali, who promotes all kinds of irreligious activities, came into this world”

    Unless, you decide to define “irreligious activities” as good. There’s many more where that came from but that one will do for now.
    ========================================

    Explained this before…..

    ======================
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali

    Kālī (/ˈkɑːli/; Sanskrit: काली;Telugu: కాళీ; Tamil: காளி; Bengali: কালী), also known as Kālikā (Sanskrit: कालिका,Telugu: కాళికా), is the Hindu goddess associated with empowerment, or shakti. She is the mighty aspect of the goddess Durga.
    ==========================
    ============================
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_%28disambiguation%29

    Hinduism

    Kali (demon), Lord of Káli Yuga and nemesis of Kalki (the 10th Vishnu incarnation)
    Kali Yuga, the age of Káli in Hinduism
    ==============================
    =================================
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_%28demon%29

    In Hinduism, Kali (Devanāgari: कलि, IAST: kali, with both vowels short; from a root kad, “suffer, grieve, hurt; confound, confuse”) is the reigning lord of Kali Yuga and archenemy of Kalki, the 10th and final Avatar of the Hindu God Vishnu. In the Kalki Purana, he is portrayed as a demon and the source of all evil.
    ====================================

    NOTE CAREFULLY PHOENIX THE SANSKRIT SCRIPT (DEVANAGARI SPELLINGS) OF TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES

    Kālī (/ˈkɑːli/; Sanskrit: काली) and Kali (Devanāgari: कलि) are TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES WITH COMPLETELY TWO DIFFERENT SPELLINGS IN SANSKRIT. DUE TO LIMITATION OF ENGLISH SCRIPT, YOU ARE FOOLISHLY ASSUMING TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES AS SAME.

  39. Phoenix says:

    Why?

    Now where did you read that Kali is goddess of good and evil or that she is goddess of evil? I am really curious how did you pull this out of your behinds?//

    I did not say she’s good and evil… just evil.

    Bhagavata Purana SB 1.18.6:The very day and moment the Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, left this earth, the personality of Kali, who promotes all kinds of irreligious activities, came into this world”

    Unless, you decide to define “irreligious activities” as good. There’s many more where that came from but that one will do for now.
    ===
    Where did you read that Hindu Gods oscillate between good and evil?//

    Right here:
    ==================================================================
    Devi Bhagavatam 4:15:59-64. Look! The Moon stole away per force knowingly the wife of Brihaspatî; Indra, knowing what is religion stole away the wife of Gautama; Brihaspatî enjoyed forcibly the wife of his younger; and also he outraged his elder brother’s wife in her pregnant state and cursed the boy in the womb and…
    Devi Bhagavatam 4:17:48. Was not the doing of Hari like a thief when he stole away the Lady Rukminî and fled quickly to his own place.
    ===================================================================
    All these characters mentioned above are your religious heroes in other instances, promoting some semblance of morality but above they’ve decided to have a field day raping each others wives.

    //Where did you read that Shiva is the God of underworld, God of fertility or He is associated with human sacrifices?
    Please show from primary Hindu texts. No third rate anti-Hindu websites please//

    Geez, now all these pro-hindu websites are secretly promoting an anti-hindu agenda. Paranoid much?
    ===============

    No meaning of slave-girl is mentioned here. Krishna is a King and has many servants. He was visiting Pandavas during their marriage festivities and presented many female servants to pandavas. These are NOT slaves. They servants are well paid and taken care of. There is NO parallel to your barbaric bible here//

    First, these women were gifts. It is the transfer from one ownership to the next without payment. Servants are not owned and therefore can’t be shared.
    Second, these women were adorned with beautiful jewels. Servants do not need to be beautified. What? Ugly people can’t do chores?

    http://sanskritdictionary.com/?iencoding=iast&q=ratn%C4%81ni+&lang=sans&action=Search

    ratnāni=jewels
    ratnāni=the jewels on our heads
    strī-ratnāni =beautiful wives .
    strī-ratnāni =beautiful wives

    With or without the term “female slaves”, the context remains clear. These women were the property of Krshna’s and then divided amongst Pandu’s sons.

  40. Steve says:

    @passive observer

    “Richard Dawkins is also struggling with the word consciousness” He is not struggling with the definition, consciousness is commonly defined as “the state of being aware of and responsive to ones surroundings”. This is what everyone else means when they talk about consciousness. But this is not what the guy who wrote this article is talking about when he speaks about “pure consciousness” which apparently is the “mother of all beings” “space less and timeless” “without a birth or death” and other such statements without even defining what he means by “pure consciousness”.

    “He said “Consciousness is the biggest puzzle facing biology, neuro-biology, computational studies and evolutionary biology”. He went on to say, “It is a very, very, big problem. I don’t know the answer, nobody knows the answer. I think one day they probably will know the answer but even if science doesn’t know the answer, I return to the question, what on earth makes you think that religion will?”” Where did he say this? I found this quote from him “Consciousness is an emergent consequence of brain activity. When brain dies, so does consciousness. All else is wishful thinking”. This accords with my own view consciousness or mind is not the physical brain but a manifestation of neuronal patterns, it emerges from a living brain in action. Very much like a tune played on a piano is not the physical piano but an “emergent consequence” of pressing a sequence of keys on the piano. And likewise when you stop playing the piano the music is gone, when the brain stops functioning the consciousness is gone.

  41. Ajay says:

    @Ali Sina

    I also wrongly believed God is infinity. But a scholar make me understand like this, God is infinite in the sense of humans not God. Only God knows his limitations, powers. God’s knowledge is infinite in the sense of humans not God. If God does not know about his knowledge how can be he God? If God does not know his powers how can be he God? Even Humans know how much knowledge and power they possess.

    In mathematics language number of God omniscience, powers, size is too big that humans can not speak it if they start from their birth to death. But it has certainly limitation. So, God is infinite for humans not for God himself because we can not know him fully.

  42. @Steve
    Richard Dawkins is also struggling with the word consciousness. He said “Consciousness is the biggest puzzle facing biology, neuro-biology, computational studies and evolutionary biology”. He went on to say, “It is a very, very, big problem. I don’t know the answer, nobody knows the answer. I think one day they probably will know the answer but even if science doesn’t know the answer, I return to the question, what on earth makes you think that religion will?”

  43. why? says:

    Phoenix Says:
    ============================================
    Some say Kali is the goddess of evil but then again good and evil are not the same as the western/christian sense of the terms. Most hindu gods oscillate between good and evil without any moral qualms. For example, Shiva is the god of the underworld and heavens. He’s the god of fertility and associated with human sacrfices. These contradictions are of no concern to hindus.
    =============================================

    Now where did you read that Kali is goddess of good and evil or that she is goddess of evil? I am really curious how did you pull this out of your behinds?

    Where did you read that Hindu Gods oscillate between good and evil?

    Where did you read that Shiva is the God of underworld, God of fertility or He is associated with human sacrifices?

    Please show from primary Hindu texts. No third rate anti-Hindu websites please…

    Phoenix Says:
    ============================================
    Krishna is another prime example. He is the most popular god of the Hare Krishna sect, a severly edited version of hinduism made palatable for western audiences. He’s the god of love as well as a slave trader. If Krishna was alive today, he’d be serving a life sentence for multiple counts of human trafficking and prostitution.

    Mahabharata 4:72 (p.127) “…And Krishna gave unto each of the illustrious sons of Pandu numerous female slaves, and gems and robes”
    ============================================

    Let me first address the translation with primary Sanskrit transliterated text here.

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/mbs04067.htm

    25 pāribarhaṃ dadau kṛṣṇaḥ pāṇḍavānāṃ mahātmanām
    striyo ratnāni vāsāṃsi pṛthakpṛthag anekaśaḥ
    tato vivāho vidhivad vavṛte matsyapārthayoḥ

    Observe the word “Striyo” in the second line. There is completely NO mention of the word “Dasi” (slave girls) here. GANGULI’S translation is one of the worst ones. Read M N Dutt’s translation for example. This particular part about StrI is even missing. Some recensions of Mahanbharatha, critical edictions, do NOT have some verses.

    http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?beginning=0+&tinput=+strI&trans=Translate

    स्त्री strI adj. female
    स्त्री strI f. woman
    स्त्री strI f. lady
    स्त्री strI f. feminine gender
    स्त्री strI f. wife

    No meaning of slave-girl is mentioned here. Krishna is a King and has many servants. He was visiting Pandavas during their marriage festivities and presented many female servants to pandavas. These are NOT slaves. They servants are well paid and taken care of. There is NO parallel to your barbaric bible here.

    By the way, Hare Krishna sect is NOT severely edited when it comes to interpretation of activities of Krishna AS NOTHING RELATED TO SEX. It is mainstream in this way, except for a seriously erroneous theological part.

    IF YOU NEED TO READ ABOUT SEX-SLAVES, LOOTING, MURDER, HUMAN SACRIFICE AND GENOCIDE, PLEASE READ YOUR BARBARIC BIBLE, WHICH I WILL HAPPILY QUOTE BELOW FOR YOU.

    RITUAL HUMAN SACRIFICE

    Vayikra – Leviticus – Chapter 27

    28 However, anything that a man devotes to the Lord from any of his property whether a person, an animal, or part of his inherited field shall not be sold, nor shall it be redeemed, [for] all devoted things are holy of holies to the Lord.

    29 Any devoting of a person who has been devoted, need not be redeemed [for] he is to be put to death.

    Jephthah Burns His Daughter (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)

    “At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, “If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

    And she said, “Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin.” “You may go,” Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin.

    SEX-SLAVES AND PEDOPHILIA

    More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

    As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

    What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and sexual slavery?

    PEDOPHILIA

    Bamidbar – Numbers – Chapter 31:17-18

    17 So now kill every male child, and every woman who can lie intimately with a man you shall kill.

    18 And all the young girls who have no experience of intimate relations with a man, you may keep alive for yourselves.

    I THINK THIS SHOULD BE ENOUGH TO SHUT YOU UP IF YOU HAVE ANY SANITY. BIBLE GOD IS A TRULY DIABOLICAL DEMONIC ENTITY, FULL OF EVIL.

  44. Phoenix says:

    Ali Sina:This friend reminded me that Shiva is also regarded as the god of destruction. Obviously not very different from Allah//

    Some say Kali is the goddess of evil but then again good and evil are not the same as the western/christian sense of the terms. Most hindu gods oscillate between good and evil without any moral qualms. For example, Shiva is the god of the underworld and heavens. He’s the god of fertility and associated with human sacrfices. These contradictions are of no concern to hindus.

    Krishna is another prime example. He is the most popular god of the Hare Krishna sect, a severly edited version of hinduism made palatable for western audiences. He’s the god of love as well as a slave trader. If Krishna was alive today, he’d be serving a life sentence for multiple counts of human trafficking and prostitution.

    Mahabharata 4:72 (p.127) “…And Krishna gave unto each of the illustrious sons of Pandu numerous female slaves, and gems and robes”

  45. Lizzie says:

    God IS. The rules we know on the earth do not apply to him. Physics is an earth bound concept and we are not capable to understanding that God does not have an origin.

  46. why? says:

    Ali Sina Says:
    ===================================================
    This friend reminded me that Shiva is also regarded as the god of destruction. Obviously not very different from Allah.
    ===================================================

    Obviously you do NOT understand anything about the concept of Shiva being the God of destruction.

    The destruction taught here is NOT about individuals or parts of world. This is according to Hindu cosmology, where the entire creation is created and destroyed in cycles of trillions of years. The destruction talked about Shiva is that of Universal dissolution at the end of a cycle, before next creation starts.

    NOW LETS GET BACK TO THE ARGUMENT HOW A GOOD GOD CAN CREATE EVIL or JUSTIFY EXISTENCE OF EVIL IN THIS WORLD:

    No Monotheistic religion (worth its name) in its complete sense attribute any independence to any created being. So NO EVIL can occur independently of God allowing it to happen and God initiating such evil to happen.

    How does God initiate evil? The superficial thinkers the christians are (like Ali Sina), think that “free-will” (whatever that means) answers the problem of existence of evil.

    However, the bible (OT) itself clearly demolishes this argument beautifully in the following verse.

    ===================================================================
    Mishlei – Proverbs – Chapter 16:4

    The Lord made everything for His praise-even the wicked man for the day of evil.

    Rashi’s commentary:

    The Lord made everything for His praise: Heb. למענהו. He made everything for His praise, as in (Ps. 147:7): “Praise (ענו) the Lord with thanksgiving.” Another explanation: To testify concerning Him. That is to say that His work testifies concerning Him, about His mighty acts. Both are in the Aggadah of Psalms (Midrash Tehillim 19:1).

    even the wicked man: He made, to leave him for the day of evil. All this is for His praise.
    ====================================================================

    How does this verse demolish “free-will” argument?

    It clearly says that God creates the evil or wicked man, knowing fully well that he will create evil on the day meant for the evil.

    Ain’t God omniscient? Yes. So He created the wicked man knowingly and He even ordained the wicked man’s fate to be so at his creation, just as Allah ordains wicked men’s fate.

    In other words the final state of wicked men has been decided at the very outset of his creation. Thus God created the evil man and MATERIAL CAUSE for evil here BY CREATING EVIL MAN. Now we need to see if this God is also EFFICIENT CAUSE BY MAKING A WICKED MAN AN AGENT OF EVIL.

    ===================================================================
    Yeshayahu- Isaiah – Chapter 45:7

    Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

    Rashi’s commentary:

    Who forms light: for the righteous.

    and creates darkness: for Babylon, and the same applies to “Who makes peace and creates evil.”
    ===================================================================

    In the above verse, God has clearly become the EFFICIENT CAUSE of evil by CREATING EVIL THROUGH SOME AGENT HERE.

    So as the Rabbis say

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0007_0_07647.html
    =quote==================================
    The rabbis insisted that as good derives from God so, ultimately, does evil. This insistence was intended to discount any implications of duality, the idea of a separate deity from whom evil springs being complete anathema to the rabbis, who even say, “Man should bless God for the evil which occurs in the same way that he blesses Him for the good” (Ber. 33b).
    =====end quote=============================

    IMPORTANT NOTE:

    We have clearly seen that as per OT, God is both (a.) Material cause of evil and (b.) Efficient cause of evil.

    NOW WE WILL DELVE INTO MORE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM OF WHETHER THIS OT GOD IS EFFICIENT CREATOR OR MATERIAL + EFFICIENT CREATOR OF THIS WORLD. THIS IS ALSO RELATED TO PROBLEM OF EVIL.

    So the question remains, how can a OMNISCIENT, GOOD AND PERFECT GOD create evil knowingly ?

    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

    —Epicurus, ca 300 BCE

    Whether it is Quran or Bible (both OT and NT), no convincing answer has been given. Why? Because they believe in theory of creation-ex-nihilo?

    Colossians 1:16

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Romans 4:17 King James Version (KJV)

    17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

    2 Maccabees 7:28

    I beg you, child, look at the sky and the earth; see all that is in them and realize that God made them out of nothing, and that man comes into being in the same way.

    2 MACCABEES (2ND CENTURY BCE) FOR SOME UNKNOWN REASON WAS OMITTED OUT OF HEBREW BIBLE, BUT INCLUDED IN CATHOLIC BIBLE.

    POINTS TO CONSIDER:

    A.) GENESIS 1:1-2 IS VARIOUSLY INTERPRETED AS CREATION-EX-NIHILO OR EFFICIENT CREATION ONLY.

    MAJORITY ANCIENT JEWISH SOURCES FOR LAST 2000 YEARS CONSIDERED CREATION-EX-NIHILO INTERPRETATION. VERY FEW REJECTED THIS THEORY.

    B.) 2 MACCABEES 7:28 BELONGING TO 2ND CENTURT BCE, EXPLICITLY SUPPORTS CREATION-EX-NIHILO.

    C.) NEW TESTAMENT (Colossians 1:16 AND Romans 4:17) AND MAJORITY CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS SUPPORT EXPLICITLY CREATION-EX-NIHILO.

    CONCLUSION:

    Since God created-ex-nihilo everything, including evil person, evil incidents (natural or otherwise) etc. God is MATERIAL AND EFFICIENT OF CAUSE OF ALL EVIL THAT EXISTS ON EARTH.

    Lets go back to Ali Sina’s statement.

    Ali Sina says:
    =================================================
    The God of Jesus it the only God I know of that is absolute good and contains no duality and no contradiction within Himself. He does not create evil and is sanctified from it.
    ==================================================

    We have clearly seen that this God of Jeebus is (MARK THE WORD “DIRECTLY” BELOW)

    1. DIRECTLY THE EFFICIENT CAUSE OF EVIL.

    (Yeshayahu- Isaiah – Chapter 45:7 SAYS GOD CREATES EVIL THROUGH AGENTS)

    2. DIRECTLY THE MATERIAL CAUSE OF EVIL

    (Mishlei – Proverbs – Chapter 16:4 SAYS GOD CREATES WICKED MAN FOR THE DAY OF EVIL)

    3. INDIRECTLY BOTH THE MATERIAL AND EFFICIENT CAUSE OF EVIL BEING CREATOR OF EVERYTHING FROM NOTHING.

    (CREATION-EX-NIHILO CONFIRMED IN NT AND OT, ALSO IN JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN TRADITION)

    CONCLUSION:

    CLEARLY JEEBUS’ GOD IS EVIL IN NATURE JUST LIKE ALLAH.

    ONLY HINDUISM GIVES A CORRECT SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM.

    ONLY HINDUISM’S GOD IS PERFECTLY GOOD.

    ONLY IN HINDUISM’S FRAMEWORK, THE LOCUS OF ALL DEFECTS, EVIL ETC. DOES NOT LIE IN GOD, BUT LIES ELSEWHERE.

  47. Steve says:

    @Ali Sina what you do mean by consciousness or “pure consciousness”, you need to define this word otherwise everything you say about it is meaningless.

    “But your love or your consciousness do not occupy any space.” So if anyone asks where you are or where you have been or are planning to go, is your answer going to be I do not occupy any space?

    “They cannot detect and measure consciousness.” They certainly can, not only it applies to other humans but also animals you are telling me you cannot observe what this cat is feeling?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1hPxGmTGarM

    “Consciousness is real and is the mother of all things. ” Consciousness just observes and identifies what exists – it cannot create anything.

    “The virtual world is the product of your consciousness.” The virtual world is a product of countless things not just my consciousness (which itself is the product of countless things)

    “This idea that everything has a beginning, a life cycle and a death applies only to the physical objects. Consciousness is not subject to the same laws that the material universe is subject to. It has no beginning and no end because it is not made of matter and hence is not subject to time. ” You lose consciousness every night when you go into unconscious sleep so it certainly is subject to the laws of material universe.

    “the answer is that God never came into existence” Where did God and his environment come from? You didn’t answer this question. Why you’re God cannot cease to exist? If something in you’re Gods environment causes him to die can he stop himself from dying? You must answer this since the “God” you believe is not all powerful or all knowing.

    “If God made us in His image with all His attributes, then we must be also free. And because we are free, we can disobey Him. We are free to say no and to rebel. And that is the whole point. God did not create robots and automatons. That would have defeated the whole purpose. Automatons cannot love. There can’t be love without freedom. He created us in His own image, bequeathing in each one all His faculties.” Why didn’t God just create people who he knew would freely choose to love and not people he knew who would be hate mongers like Hitler and Bin Laden? why he let a false and evil religion like Islam be believed in by more than 20% of the worlds population?

  48. //The truth is that God does not have the whole world in His hand. He has given that power to us, his children. We are in charge and in control. We are God’s operatives and His associates.//

    According to Genesis 1:28 God made a covenant with the man and given the stewardship
    .
    God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”(Genesis 1:28)

  49. why? says:

    Ali Sina Says:
    =======================================
    There is no death or destruction in God. There is no unrighteousness in the Lord. (Psalms 92:15) The God of Jesus it the only God I know of that is absolute good and contains no duality and no contradiction within Himself. He does not create evil and is sanctified from it.
    =====================================

    Really!!!

    Yeshayahu- Isaiah – Chapter 45:7

    Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

    Rashi’s commentary:

    Who forms light: for the righteous.

    and creates darkness: for Babylon, and the same applies to “Who makes peace and creates evil.”

    Amos – Chapter 3:6

    Will a shophar be sounded in the city and the people not quake? Will there be evil in the city if the Lord has not done it?

    Mishlei – Proverbs – Chapter 16

    The Lord made everything for His praise-even the wicked man for the day of evil.

    Rashi’s commentary:

    The Lord made everything for His praise: Heb. למענהו. He made everything for His praise, as in (Ps. 147:7): “Praise (ענו) the Lord with thanksgiving.” Another explanation: To testify concerning Him. That is to say that His work testifies concerning Him, about His mighty acts. Both are in the Aggadah of Psalms (Midrash Tehillim 19:1).

    even the wicked man: He made, to leave him for the day of evil. All this is for His praise.

    ===========================================

    CLEARLY AS PER THE LAST QUOTED VERSE, BIBLE GOD HAS MADE EVERYTHING, INCLUDING THE WICKED AND EVIL PEOPLE, KNOWING FULLY WELL THAT A WICKED PERSON WILL CREATE EVIL ON A PARTICULAR DAY.

    DOES ANYBODY NEED ANY MORE PROOF THAT AS PER BIBLE AND JEEBUS, WHETHER EVIL OR GOOD, ALL COME FROM THE SAME BIBLICAL GOD JUST AS ALLAH CLAIMS FROM QURAN.

    Further the verses cited above says, any evil in any city is also due to this biblical god.

    Now lets see what Jews say about their god according to OT.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0007_0_07647.html
    =quote==================================
    In a monotheistic world view, a persistent problem is to account for the existence of evil in its many forms – natural catastrophes, pain and anguish in human life, moral evil, and sin. These facts must be fitted somehow within the design of the Creator as it is realized in the course of human history.

    First there is the issue of the existence of evil itself. The rabbis insisted that as good derives from God so, ultimately, does evil. This insistence was intended to discount any implications of duality, the idea of a separate deity from whom evil springs being complete anathema to the rabbis, who even say, “Man should bless God for the evil which occurs in the same way that he blesses Him for the good” (Ber. 33b). The same antidualistic motif is contained in the verse, “I am the Lord, there is none else; I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil” (Isa. 45:6–7).
    =====end quote=============================

    Luke 20:37 Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)

    37 `And that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the Bush, since he doth call the Lord, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;

    I think that settles it. The god of jeebus whom jeebus himself mentioned as “the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” is none other than the god of old testament and IS CLEARLY NO DIFFERENT THAN ALLAH. JUST LUKE ALLAH, ALL EVIL AND GOOD ARE FROM OT GOD TOO.

  50. Bhuvan Som says:

    Dear Sina, science has proved that water (molecules) holds memory. Homeopathy actually works on this principle. Hence, the metaphor of God-ocean, indivisual- molecule is richly justified.

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