India’s ex-Muslims: Shedding traditional Islam for science

Author: Tufail Ahmed

   [Admin’s comment: This article gives encouraging signs about the progress in the fight against Islam. It gives indications that the predictions made by many eminent people throughout history, and also being made now (e.g. world-famous scholar Dr Koenraad Elst, David Goldman, R Joseph Hoffman and others), that in the end, reason is bound to defeat Islam could be true. Despite Islam explicitly forbidding drinking of alcohol, an Islamic nation like Pakistan has millions of people drinking alcohol. Human nature and reason may well defeat Islam.]

   India is witnessing the emergence of a movement of ‘ex-Muslims’. Troubled by the involvement of Muslims in suicide bombings in primarily Muslim countries like Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and Pakistan, helped by the availability of alternative interpretations of Islam on the internet, and driven by a questioning mind, Muslim youths in India are gradually leaving Islam. Such youths — both men and women, and well educated — are typically in their twenties and thirties and describe themselves as ex-Muslims, atheists or cultural Muslims. They network through social media, Facebook and WhatsApp, often use anonymous Ids, and are based in towns across India.

   Sultan Shahin, editor of the reformist website NewageIslam.com, says that there is no organised movement of ex-Muslims in India like it is in Western countries such as Britain, but some Muslims called him to inquire about real Islam. “I have spoken to 3-4 Muslims who have left five-time prayers. A lawyer in Delhi even convinced his father to leave Islam,” Shahin says, adding that many such youths browse anti-Islam websites and accept the jihadi discourse as real Islam.

   “I see individuals coming up [on social media] and we know each other. I can say that I am one of them,” says Nadia Nongzai, speaking of ex-Muslims. Nadia, who is based in Shillong and holds a B Tech in computer science and a Master’s degree in economics, comes from a practicing Muslim family. “In school, I could not believe that the god [Allah] who is so great will not have a sense of fair play and will send all non-Muslim kids of my school to hell,” she says, questioning the Islamic teachings that non-Muslims will not enter heaven. She does not hesitate in describing herself an ex-Muslim. Asked if this could pose a security threat to her, she says she doesn’t hide her identity and adds: “I am trained in martial arts.”

   Sazi Suber (name changed) was born in Saudi Arabia and raised there by his parents till 10. His mother, who converted from Christianity to Islam and returned to Christianity later, brought him back to Mangalore (in Karnataka state in South India), where he was sent to a madrassa. Sazi now holds a BE in computer science and is working on an app for comic books. “When I came to India, I found dogs cute and lovable. My mother told me that playing with dogs is haram [forbidden by Islam],” he says about the first clash of viewpoint he had regarding Islam. In Islam, dogs are seen as unpious and Muslims are forbidden to keep them as pets.

   Two years after coming to India, Sazi was attending a congregation in Mangalore where an Islamic cleric was telling Muslims on a loudspeaker to not accept water and food from non-Muslim homes. This came as a shock to him and he couldn’t reconcile with this idea. “It was like telling me to hate my mom who was a Christian. No child can accept this,” he says about the cleric’s announcement. It fuelled his questioning of Islam. “I started reading science. Islam appeared as a shock. The logical conclusion led me to think: this was not right,” Sazi, now an atheist and 27 years old, says, adding that he also began questioning as to why only Muslims were involved in suicide bombings.

   Ashiq (nickname) is an electronics engineer based in Thiruvananthapuram. “I used to go to a madrassa. I read books from the library about science. I used to ask my teachers: Who created god? But the teachers wouldn’t respond to my questions,” he says, adding that they would instead say: “You are guided by Satan. They would call me Satan’s shadow.” Ashiq’s most piercing question to his madrassa teachers was: since a day can last six months in countries near the North Pole, when should Muslims break their day-long fast? The madrassa teachers did not have knowledge of geography. “The clerics beat me up for asking this,” he says.

   “My friends would call me son of Satan. They wouldn’t play cricket with me. I was isolated. Only my mother was there to talk to me,” Ashiq says. He was also taught not to accept food from non-Muslims. “The clerics threw me out of class when I questioned them why they teach: Do not accept food from Hindus,” he says. Later, his mother advised him to somehow complete his studies and not ask questions because they will declare you a kafir (infidel). “For the next year, I did not ask any question,” he says. Now, he is 29 years old and has joined Facebook and WhatsApp groups to encourage scientific temper among Muslim youths. “We ask basic questions: Where did we come from? How was the earth born?”

   Ali Muntazar, 27 years old and based in Kolkata, comes from a family of clerics. His grandfather and father were Islamic scholars. He does not practice Islam and uses terms like “revolutionist” and baghawti (treasonous) to describe himself. He doesn’t offer prayers on Eid or any other day and eats openly during Ramzan. Asked if he has run into trouble over this, he says: “I was nearly beaten up. But in India there is democracy; that is why I was saved.” He says he had a questioning mind since childhood, but his father’s friends, who were clerics, could not answer his queries satisfactorily. Ali Muntazar was troubled by the fact that the life of his khala (mother’s sister) was destroyed by triple talaq, the practice whereby a husband divorces his wife by uttering talaq (divorce) three times. He is bitter: “The first victims of Islam’s atank [terror] are Muslims themselves.”

   Bohra Muslims are a sect of Shia Islam. A number of Bohra Muslim youths are leaving Islam at the level of ideas, though it is not easy for them to not be part of the strongly-mandated practices. A Bengaluru-based Bohra Muslim, who wishes to remain anonymous, says: “The Bohra community has a strong policy of ex-communication, which can have a strong negative bearing on their daily life and business. But within the community, there is a growing disquiet about the role of Syedna [the leader].” He adds, “Culturally, I am more of a Bohra rather than a Muslim. But I wouldn’t describe myself as ex-Muslim. I am not bothered personally, but I am afraid of repercussions for my parents, my business partner and our business.”

   D Zafar, who is doing a PhD on religious fanaticism in English literature and lives in Moradabad, has performed Hajj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca. In his quest for knowledge, he read three translations of the Quran and has now left Islam. Local Islamic clerics could not answer his questions, and instead would threaten him: awam mein hamara ek byan tum ko murtad qarar kardega aur tum ko shahr chhorna padega (Our one statement declaring you apostate will force you to leave the city). Once the local mosque imam was about to publish his photograph declaring him murtad (apostate), which had to be resolved through political influence.

   “We stopped talking about it [Islam]. We used to get messages that you could not teach Islam, but if you want to teach English, it is fine,” Zafar says, adding he was told by Islamic clerics: kafiron se door raha karo (maintain distance from kafirs). Later, he joined some three-night camps of the Tablighi Jamaat, a revivalist group, but some rival doctrinal groups persuaded him against this. Zafar’s basic point of difference was this: “The entire Quran does not mandate five-times namaz [prayer]. Some Muslims even offer only 3-time prayers.” He notes that there is no uniformity in prayers because there are 20 types of prayers among 200 doctrinal sects in Islam.

   Major Rashid Khan, who has retired from military service, comes from an orthodox family that prayed five times and observed Ramzan. “When I entered college, I started thinking about Islam and the Quran. I realized that we were not allowed to ask questions about religion,” he says, adding that his intellectual thinking departed from Islam on the issue that the moon was split at Prophet Muhammad’s hint and also over the issue of the killing of over 700 Jews of Banu Quraiza tribe, who had surrendered before the prophet. He left Islam and was scolded by his father; his elder brothers stopped talking to him. “My brothers did so because they think Muslims can have no business with those who reject Islam,” he says.

   Major Khan brought up his children in a free atmosphere. “When my children were around 8-10 years, I started explaining to them what definitions of god exist in different communities. I told my children: you are free to decide; I will never force you to accept any religion. I also brought Islamic teachers to teach them the Quran,” says he, adding that children as young as 3-4 are taken to madrassa and that there is a need to ban madrassas because they teach hatred of other religions through such concepts as kafirs. His children have evolved their own thinking away from Islam.

  Amana Begam, a student of Law based in Jaipur, says she was interested in history, philosophy and French revolution but her engineer father got her into science. She initially taught computers but has since moved to studying law. “As a child of 10-11, I was sent to study at a madrassa in Azamgarh (a centre of Islamic learning in Uttar Pradesh, India’s biggest state),” she says, adding: “At the madrassa, Islamic clerics taught that more girls than boys will go into hell. I was told that of 100 people in hell, 99 will be women.” She asked her teachers to explain why mostly girls will go to hell to which she was told: “woh na-shukri hoti hain [they are not thankful].”

   This came as a shock to Amana Begam, but she continued to be religious till she was 25. “I used to justify polygamy, but for how long I could have continued to tell a lie,” she says, adding: “I lost any respect for the prophet when I got to know about the practice of thighing.” She is inclined towards atheism. Speaking about terrorist attacks and suicide bombings in Muslim countries, Amana Begam says her relatives sometimes justified the Islamic State and the Mumbai blasts, and offers a profound comment on the nature of Islam and its followers: “As a community, we want either victimhood or supremacy.”

   S Ahmad (name changed) holds a doctorate from the Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi. Based in Delhi’s Jamia Nagar, a pre-dominantly Muslim locality, he comes from an orthodox family and his father is a member of a religious organisation. “I began questioning Islam after watching a video of Richard Dawkins [the English biologist]. His book, The God Delusion, destroyed my arguments,” he says, adding that for morality, there is no need for religious books. He is however also clear that there is no escape from his identity as a Muslim, especially when a policeman abuses, or picks up innocent Muslims in false terror cases, or when Indian soldiers travelling in trains abuse Muslim youths as katuwa (a pejorative for those who are circumcised).

   Arif Mohammad, a student of engineering in Bhopal, comes from a family of practicing Muslims. “I believe in Karma rather than god,” he says, adding: “Consciously or unconsciously, I began questioning Islam after Class 12 but there was curiosity about religions right from childhood.” Arif Muhammad describes himself as Indian and not as Indian Muslim. “I have noticed about 50 Muslims [on social media] who have left Islam but they cannot openly talk about Islam,” he says adding that some of these youths have left Islam because they do not want to become part of terrorism. “These Muslim youths prefer their cultural identity over their Islamic identity. “

   Arif Mohammad also notes that in order to avoid security issues cultural Muslims like him choose their friends wisely because some friends do become violent. “Social media has helped such Muslims to connect with each other and to realise that there are people like us on the planet,” he says, adding that such Muslims are connected via Facebook pages of Iranian Atheists, Afghan Atheists and so on. He notes that there are many Muslims like him in Bhopal, Jabalpur and other cities. Regarding the movement of ex-Muslims, he says that it cannot emerge as a formal movement without a leader. This point is also shared by Ali Muntazar who stresses the need for a platform for ex-Muslims.

   The stories of the above-named people are not isolated. It is indeed a trend that Muslim youths are leaving Islam in towns across India, but most of those interviewed here observed that there is also a rival trend of Muslims becoming more religious than they used to be. A few points that emerge about those who are leaving Islam: They live in fear of local Islamic clerics, they become isolated in their local neighbourhoods, their stories bring out the fact that questioning minds are not acceptable to Islam, there is a teaching of hate against non-Muslims by Islamic scholars and virtually every Islamic cleric considers himself as the ruler of Muslims. However, given the critical thinking emerging through these former Muslims, there is an urgent need for a platform for them where they can join hands, network and discuss Islam, more so since Islam is engaged in an eternal conflict with the identity of India as a civilisation.

   Former BBC journalist Tufail Ahmad is a contributing editor at Firstpost, and executive director of the Open Source Institute, New Delhi. He tweets @tufailelif

Source: http://www.firstpost.com/reports/Indias-ex-muslims-shedding-traditional-islam-for-science.html

24 Responses

  1. Face_The_Truth says:

    [If you had good arguments you would use them. Instead you fill your comments with profanity and “suggested reading”. Well-I may not have read exactly your stuff but I’ve read plenty similar. I am not impressed with any of it.]

    ‘THE MISSING EMPTY TOMB

    If the resurrection of Jesus had occurred as claimed, the tomb from which Jesus arose from the dead would have become an instant holy site, revered, protected, and advertised to others by the early Christians.

    It would have been written about by Paul, Josephus, and other scribes and historians, and become a place of worship by holy travelers.

    It would still be available today for Christian pilgrims.

    In fact, there is no tomb that fits this description.

    The two ones visited by contemporary pilgrims are just for fun!

    The lack of a specific tomb safeguarded and revered over the centuries is evidence that Jesus did not rise from the dead.’

    ====================================================================

    ‘CURRENT-DAY URBAN LEGENDS FORESHADOW WHAT HAPPENED IN BIBLICAL TIMES

    There are thousands of urban legends that are started by Christian groups to strengthen the apparent authenticity of their religious claims.

    The fact that so many of these legends continue to convince a large percentage of the population even in our modern age shows that the same sorts of legends could have prospered even more successfully 2000 years ago when information was less accessible and people were less educated and more superstitious.

    Here are some examples of current-day legends:

    –Charles Darwin’s deathbed confession

    –Charles Darwin confesses evolution is a hoax

    –The missing day of Joshua

    –Earthquakes are increasing

    –Vultures multiply in the valley of Armageddon

    –Discovery of Noah’s Ark

    –Mother Teresa’s divine light

    –Human and dinosaur footprints together

    –Bible codes

    –Garden of Eden found in Iraq

    –Halloween is a satanic holiday

    –English fisherman swallowed by fish, survived

    –Weighing the human soul

    –Man of faith walks on water

    –Message from God found in human DNA

    –Success of reparative therapy

    These urban legends are started by a group of Christians, probably justifying their lies by claiming that the ends justifies the means.

    Then other Christians hear the stories and believe them without any critical analysis because they want to believe them as a means to fortify their faith.

    This is exactly what happened in the First Century that resulted in the myths surrounding Jesus believed by billions today.’

    LINK

    http://www.kyroot.com/?page_id=580#290

  2. Face_The_Truth says:

    [If you had good arguments you would use them. Instead you fill your comments with profanity and “suggested reading”. Well-I may not have read exactly your stuff but I’ve read plenty similar. I am not impressed with any of it.]

    ‘EXCUSES

    Christians are constantly fighting a battle against what is generally termed ‘cognitive dissonance,’ where the world that they see and experience is at odds with their cherished beliefs.

    So, they have devised a system of excuses in a desperate attempt to preserve their beliefs.

    Here are some examples:

    –It wasn’t really slavery

    –That’s just the Old Testament

    –You’re reading it out of context

    –It wasn’t really wine, just grape juice

    –People send themselves to Hell

    –A day could mean a billion years to God

    –God works in mysterious ways

    –You cannot test God

    –If he revealed himself, there would be no room for faith

    –My prayer went unanswered, so it was the will of God

    –The Devil did it

    –Scientists conspire against godly beliefs

    –That’s not what’s really being said

    –The Bible treats women as being equal to men

    –You have to know how to interpret the Bible

    –He was talking about the generation of the end times

    –That’s not a contradiction, just two sides of the story

    –You just have to have faith

    It is unlikely that a true religion developed by a perfect deity would require so many excuses for followers to maintain their belief.’

    ====================================================================

    ‘CURRENT-DAY URBAN LEGENDS FORESHADOW WHAT HAPPENED IN BIBLICAL TIMES

    There are thousands of urban legends that are started by Christian groups to strengthen the apparent authenticity of their religious claims.

    The fact that so many of these legends continue to convince a large percentage of the population even in our modern age shows that the same sorts of legends could have prospered even more successfully 2000 years ago when information was less accessible and people were less educated and more superstitious.

    Here are some examples of current-day legends:

    –Charles Darwin’s deathbed confession

    –Charles Darwin confesses evolution is a hoax

    –The missing day of Joshua

    –Earthquakes are increasing

    –Vultures multiply in the valley of Armageddon

    –Discovery of Noah’s Ark

    –Mother Teresa’s divine light

    –Human and dinosaur footprints together

    –Bible codes

    –Garden of Eden found in Iraq

    –Halloween is a satanic holiday

    –English fisherman swallowed by fish, survived

    –Weighing the human soul

    –Man of faith walks on water

    –Message from God found in human DNA

    –Success of reparative therapy

    These urban legends are started by a group of Christians, probably justifying their lies by claiming that the ends justifies the means.

    Then other Christians hear the stories and believe them without any critical analysis because they want to believe them as a means to fortify their…

  3. Face_The_Truth says:

    [If you had good arguments you would use them. Instead you fill your comments with profanity and “suggested reading”. Well-I may not have read exactly your stuff but I’ve read plenty similar. I am not impressed with any of it.]

    ‘IF YOU ARE NOT A JEW, YOU CANNOT BE A FOLLOWER OF JESUS:

    Jesus was a Jew and supported the Jewish laws and traditions, though he might have softened some of the more stringent rules.

    Nevertheless, if you do not observe the Halakha, the collective body of Jewish religious laws, you cannot consider yourself to be a follower of Jesus.

    If you do not attend synagogue, you cannot be a follower of Jesus.

    If you do not observe the Sabbath, from Friday evening to Saturday evening, you cannot be a follower of Jesus.

    If you do not observe the requirement of circumcision, you cannot be a follower of Jesus.

    If you do not observe the kosher dietary rules, you cannot be a follower of Jesus.

    To summarize, you can consider yourself to be a Christian, but you are not a follower of Jesus.

    If Jesus could observe your life, he would not consider you to be his disciple.

    You are not a follower of the real Jesus.

    Instead, you are a follower of the fictional Jesus created by Paul, the Gospel authors, the Emperor Constantine, and all the popes and religious leaders over the past 20 centuries.’

    ====================================================================

    ‘THE OLD TESTAMENT DOES NOT PROPHECIZE A CRUCIFIED MESSIAH:

    There was nothing in the world of Judaism, the religion that Jesus followed, to indicate that the promised messiah would be crucified.

    The prophecies in Isaiah 53, Psalm 22:16, Daniel 10, and Isaiah 9:6 have nothing to do with Jesus but rather refer to events occurring well before Jesus was born.

    The references to these prophecies by the Gospel writers are out of context and completely mistaken.

    In their zeal to legitimize the Christian faith, they cherry-picked whatever they could find to show that the messiah was supposed to be crucified.

    Any Jew, then or now, even Jesus himself, did not believe that the messiah would be crucified as a common criminal, but rather he would overcome the powers of the world and establish a new Kingdom of Israel.’

    LINK

    http://www.kyroot.com/?page_id=580#290

  4. Richard says:

    Dear “Face the Truth”
    If you had good arguments you would use them.
    Instead you fill your comments with profanity and “suggested reading”. Well-I may not have read exactly your stuff but I’ve read plenty similar. I am not impressed with any of it.

    When someone issues insults and profanities all over their posts – and also displays ample evidence of factual inaccuracy all over the place then they are not to be taken seriously – sorry.

  5. Think outside the box says:

    A TOUCHING HINDU TESTIMONY – URVASHI

  6. Think outside the box says:

    Hindu Top Brahmin RSS leader finds Jesus Christ in Vedas

  7. Face_The_Truth says:

    This message is for Richard_the_Christian_M*****F*****:

    [Plus the list of 100 scientists includes many Jews — usually working in Christian countries.]

    BECAUSE, EUROPEAN COUNTRIES DEFEATED CHRISTIAN CHURCH DURING THE FRENCH REVOLUTION AND ALLOWED FREEDOM OF THINKING.

    FREEDOM OF THINKING IS A PRECURSOR OF SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES.

    []I SAID, “A PRECURSOR”. I DID NOT SAY “THE ONLY PRECURSOR” HOWEVER.[]

    [Not exactly White Caucasian.]

    IF NOT WHITE CAUCASIAN,

    WHAT IS THE VISIBLE RACE OF THE MAJORITY OF WELL-KNOWN SCIENTISTS OF THE PAST 100 YEARS OR MORE???

    [Judaism of course has a similar philosophical outlook to Christianity since it is the precursor.]

    THERE ARE MILLIONS OF CHRISTIANS IN AFRICA AND ASIA TODAY.

    AND, THE AFRICAN AND THE ASIAN RACES ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT WHITE CAUCASIAN.

    SO, HOW MANY SCIENTISTS HAVE COME OUT SO FAR FROM AFRICAN AND ASIAN HUMANS — WHO EXCLUSIVELY BELIEVE IN CHRISTIANITY — IF CHRISTIANITY WERE ONLY THE ROOT OF ALL SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES???

    [You don’t fool anyone apart from perhaps yourself.]

    I DO NOT TRY TO FOOL ANYONE.

    I JUST TELL THE TRUTH BASED ON WHAT IS EVIDENT.

    [AS for science – Christianity conflicts well see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y2ICUYwp4E%5D

    I DO NOT NEED TO SEE YOUR CROCK$HIT VIDEO TO ASCERTAIN THE OBVIOUS.

    [As for physical science vs biological science – well the fact you draw a contrast shows that you know little of either.]

    STOP LYING, YOU CHRISTIAN M*****F*****.

    YOU CHRISTIAN M*****F*****S ALWAYS OPPOSE SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES THAT DO NOT FIT YOUR FALSE CHRISTIAN NARRATIVES.

    [The main objection to the naive literalist interpretation of the old testament has nothing to do with biology and a lot to do with the age of the earth (geology) and the inevitably large scale of the universe in both space and time (general relativity- physics).]

    JUST ADMIT THAT, YOUR OLD TESTAMENT’S FALSE NARRATIVES EITHER DO NOT ALWAYS FIT THE SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES OR, WORSE, GO STRAIGHT AGAINST SCIENCE.

  8. Face_The_Truth says:

    This message is for Richard_the_Christian_M*****F*****:

    [Why don’t you try an actual argument for the change instead of a mixture of unsupported assertion and profanity?]

    EVERY LITERATE CHRISTIAN CAN AND SHOULD READ THE FOLLOWING BOOKS IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND CHRISTIANITY VERY PROPERLY IN HISTORICAL CONTEXTS:

    =====================================================================

    William Benjamin Smith, “Ecce Deus: Studies of Primitive Christianity”, London, 1912

    l. Gordon Rylands, “Did Jesus Ever Live?”, Watts & Co., London, 1929

    William James Durant, “The Story of Civilization, Part III, Caesar and Christ”, Fourth Printing, New York, 1944

    Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity”, Penguin Books, London, 1978

    Michael Thomas Walter Arnheim, “Is Christianity True?”, London, 1984

    George Albert Wells, “Did Jesus Exist?”, Second Edition, London, 1986

    Daniel Edwin Barker, “Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist”, Fourth Printing, Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc., USA, 2003

    =====================================================================

    LINK
    http://infidels.org/library/modern/keith_parsons/whynotchristian.html

    LINK
    http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

    LINK
    http://www.i4m.com/think/bible/historical_jesus.htm

    LINK
    http://www.drabruzzi.com/ZINDLER-JESUS.PDF

    LINK
    https://orphicplatonism.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/jesus-christ-an-artifice-for-aggression-by-sita-ram-goel.pdf

    LINK
    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

    [You can say “bullshit” to Pythagoras’ Theorem – but that won’t make it untrue!]

    YOUR CHRISTIANITY IS NOT THE THEOREM OF PYTHAGORAS.

    YOUR CHRISTIANITY IS NOT SCIENCE.

    YOUR CHRISTIANITY IS BASED ON GREED, PERVERSION, AND HISTORIC LIES.

    PYTHAGORAS THE GREEK MATHEMATICIAN WAS NOT OF CHRISTIAN FAITH, BY THE WAY.

    [You can try shouting “racist” and hope that the politically correct crowd will bite – but facts are not racist.]

    I DID NOT SAY THAT.

    YOU SAID THAT.

    I DO NOT TRY TO QUANTIFY HOW MANY WORLD’S SCIENTISTS TODAY ARE “HINDUS” OR BUDDHISTS.

    [Christianity originated in the Middle East amongst Jews and Greeks.]

    THAT’S WHY I DO NOT WORSHIP A DEAD, BLOODY NAZARENE JEW HANGING ON THE GALLOWS FROM MIDDLE EAST.

    [Only the dead hand of Islamic conquest prevented scientific progress from happening in those regions.]

    YOU CHRISTIAN M*****F*****S PROMOTED ISLAM TO MURDER AND DISPOSSESS WORLD’S PAGANS OF THEIR EVERYTHING.

    YOU CHRISTIAN M*****F*****S DID NOT FINISH THE CRUSADES DURING MEDIEVAL TIME SO THAT MUSLIM BASTARDS COULD MURDER ALL PAGANS TO MAKE ROOM CHRISTIANITY TO TAKE OVER ALL PAGAN LANDS LATER.

    BUT, YOUR CHRISTIAN PLAN BACKFIRED WHEN MUSLIM BASTARDS STARTED ATTACKING YOUR CHRISTIAN HOMELANDS DURING MIDDLE AGE.

    SO, DON’T TRY TO HIDE HISTORICAL CHRISTIAN CRIMES BY BLAMING ON WORLD’S MUSLIM BASTARDS.

    [Plus the list of 100 scientists includes many Jews — usually working in Christian countries…

  9. A.H. says:

    Richard wrote:

    “You said :”you will also find HIm (Jesus)”
    Actually it will quite likely be the other way around – He will find you!”

    Agreed! It`s by grace not by effort.

    TS wrote:

    “Jesus is believed a perfect human being. I like to ask whether God made him perfect or he got the perfection by his efforts?”

    This is in brief what the christian Church believes about Jesus from its inception 2000 years ago:

    At the time appointed by God, the only Son of the Father, the eternal Word, that is, the Word and substantial Image of the Father, became incarnate; without losing his divine nature he has assumed human nature.

    Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.

    Jesus Christ possesses two natures, one divine and the other human, not confused, but united in the one person of God’s Son.

    Christ, being true God and true man, has a human intellect and will, perfectly attuned and subject to his divine intellect and divine will, which he has in common with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

    The Incarnation is therefore the mystery of the wonderful union of the divine and human natures in the one person of the Word.

  10. Richard says:

    @ Ron

    You said :”you will also find HIm (Jesus)”

    Actually it will quite likely be the other way around – He will find you!

    http://www.mitras.ru/eng/eng_04.htm

  11. Ron says:

    Dear Truth seeker,

    Majority of the testimonies of previous non-Christians who had NDEs mention they encountered Jesus and then started believing in Jesus.

    Jesus was the only human being who never sinned, He raised many dead to life, healed the sick, lepers, lame, blind, deaf, mute and crippled. He raised a man dead and buried for 4 days.

    He also conquered death by rising from the dead after 3 days.

    His teachings of forgiveness have been the highest standards which are higher and thus not comparable to any other teachings of anyone who walked on this earth. (Forgive your enemies, love those who persecute you and do you harm, bless your enemies, feed them if they are hungry and thirsty)

    Jesus is the Son of God who existed with Almighty God along with the Holy Spirit even before they created the world. He came down to earth to save us (you, me and everyone) from eternal damnation.

    Jesus was the only perfect human being because He was sinless and was God. We all human beings cannot be saved by our works; we can be saved only by grace by accepting Jesus who already paid the price for our sins.

    No one can become perfect by efforts.

    In many NDEs people have reported seeing either hell or heaven or both. So, hell and heaven are real. They are eternal that is why we should be searching for truth and not just cling to the worldview/faith with which we were brought up or indoctrinated by state or society or parents/guardians.

    The heaven as portrayed by Jesus teachings is not a place of carnal or physical pleasures but it is a place of joy, peace, holiness, fulfillment with Jesus as the King of heave which is described by majority NDEs testifiers who did not want to come back to earthly life.

    If you earnestly and sincerely seek the truth, then you will find the truth in Jesus.

    May God bless you even as you search the truth and know Jesus more and more.

    Once you find Jesus you will have a deep compassion and love for the lost and on others which you never had before.

    just say a simple prayer “Jesus if you are the Truth then come into my life and reveal yourself to me and confirm your truth through visions and dreams and third party sources and I will follow you”

    Ali Sina found Him (Jesus) and you will also find HIm (Jesus)

  12. Richard says:

    @Face the truth

    Why don’t you try an actual argument for the change instead of a mixture of unsupported assertion and profanity?

    You can say “bullshit” to Pythagras’ Theorem – but that won’t make it untrue!

    You can try shouting “racist” and hope that the politically correct crowd will bite – but facts are not racist.

    Christianity originated in the middle east amongst Jews and Greeks. Only the dead hand of Islamic conquest prevented scientific progress from happening in those regions.

    Plus the list of 100 scientists includes many Jews – usually working in Christian countries. Not exactly white Caucasian. Judaism of course has a similar philosophical outlook to Christianity since it is the precursor.

    You don’t fool anyone apart from perhaps yourself.

    AS for science – Christianity conflicts well see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y2ICUYwp4E

    As for physical science vs biological science – well the fact you draw a contrast shows that you know little of either.

    The main objection to the naive literalist interpretation of the old testament has nothing to do with biology and a lot to do with the age of the earth (geology) and the inevitably large scale of the universe in both space and time (general relativity- physics).

  13. Truth Seeker says:

    @Ron/Ali Sina

    Jesus is believed a perfect human being. I like to ask whether God made him perfect or he got the perfection by his efforts?

  14. Truth Seeker says:

    @Ron

    What is your point of view eternal abode in hell or heaven? Or These are temporary place where soul lives for a short period or long period?

  15. Truth Seeker says:

    @Ron

    Who was Jesus? I really have no idea of him. Can I enter in heaven and get 72 virgins without believing in him?

  16. Ron says:

    Look at how these Muslims (died had NDE) and then became Christians immediately.
    If you sincerely search for God, you will end up knowing Jesus as your Saviour

  17. Face_The_Truth says:

    [“The fact is that ONE particular religion, Christianity, has actually been responsible for most scientific progress because embedded in it are two key things
    1) Belief in the rationality of God and hence of the world.
    2) Humility before nature.”]

    This is bull$hit.

    Just say that most of the world’s scientific discoveries have been so far accomplished by White Caucasian humans.

    Sound racist, right?

    But, that’s the current and actual reality.

    Just look at the photos of past 100 scientists!

    The historical fact would nevertheless remain that, if Christianity itself were responsible for all scientific discoveries, world’s Christians would have quit Christianity altogether by now.

    For instance, just think about the biological science of evolution.

    Christians cannot pick and choose subjects or areas of scientific domains like — for argument’s purposes — physical science is acceptable, but biological science is not.

    Problem is world’s Muslims believe that all scientific discoveries have so far happened due to the existence of al’Quran — a “Holy Scientific” book delivered to world’s Muslims by Allah.

    Similarly, world’s Christian proselytizers believe that, all scientific discoveries as well as all prominent scientists have been influenced by Jesus F**king Christ.

    There’s no problem, however, in believing in whatever one likes; after all, most of us today luckily live in free societies!

  18. Richard says:

    “Religions have been the sole cause of the bloody wars that have ravaged mankind.”

    Not so. Did religion cause the Punic wars?
    If so please explain.
    Did religion cause any of the major wars in the 20th century involving Hitler and Stalin?
    Stalin being an avowed atheist and Hitler being someone who viewed religion as a tool.
    Did religion cause the Korean war or Vietnam ?

    Answer no.

    And religion does not have a monopoly on intolerance or rejection of new ideas as anyone who has knowledge of Atheist Communism will know.

    ” Religions have also been resolutely hostile to philosophical speculation and to scientific research. ”

    So how come most of the great Scientists who created our modern understanding of the world were Christians or Jews?

    The fact is that ONE particular religion, Christianity, has actually been responsible for most scientific progress because embedded in it are two key things

    1) Belief in the rationality of God and hence of the world.

    2) Humility before nature.

    The ancients had the first of these but not the second. The ancient Greeks sat there and pontificated – but they seldom bothered to do experiments to find out if their theories were true. Hence Plato, Aristotle, Euclid, Pythagoras and Hippocrates never got very far and never started a scientific revolution that changed the lives of ordinary people.

    Tycho de Brahe, Johannes Kepler and Isaac Newton did however – and guess what – all three were Christians!

    No other religion can make this claim – they are not all the same.

  19. Vijai Singh says:

    “All men are by nature equal and equally endowed with the faculty of reason that must not be disparaged in favor of blind faith; reason further enables men to perceive scientific truths in an immediate way.
    The prophets—these billy goats with long beards—cannot claim any intellectual or spiritual superiority. These billy goats pretend to come with a message from God, all the while exhausting themselves in spouting their lies, and imposing on the masses blind obedience to the “words of the master.” The miracles of the prophets are impostures, based on trickery, or the stories regarding them are lies.
    The falseness of what all the prophets say is evident in the fact that they contradict one another: one affirms what the other denies, and yet each claims to be the sole depository of the truth; thus the New Testament contradicts the Torah, the Qu’ran the New Testament. As for the Qur’an, it is but an assorted mixture of ‘absurd and inconsistent fables,’ which has ridiculously been judged inimitable, when, in fact, its language, style, and its much-vaunted ‘eloquence’ are far from being faultless. Custom, tradition, and intellectual laziness lead men to follow their religious leaders blindly.
    Religions have been the sole cause of the bloody wars that have ravaged mankind. Religions have also been resolutely hostile to philosophical speculation and to scientific research. The so-called holy scriptures are worthless and have done more harm than good, whereas the writings of the ancients like Plato, Aristotle, Euclid, and Hippocrates have rendered much greater service to humanity.
    The people who gather round the religious leaders are either feeble-minded, or they are women and adolescents (suggestible). Religion stifles truth and fosters enmity. If a book in itself constitutes a demonstration that it is true revelation, the treatises of geometry, astronomy, medicine and logic can justify such a claim much better than the Qur’an.” Muhammad Bin Zacharia Razi

  20. Hindu says:

    Islam’s cult like behavior is evident in their after life concept. In islam it does not matter whether what you have been most of your life. All that matter is at last moment what you did.

    I am a Hindu and I consider my God concept and after life concept to be true. I am fully convinced of my religion and I do idol worship. Now suppose I live for 80 years. Till 79.5 I lived as Hindu. Then last 6 months I became muslim. I told Allah that I did shirk, I sincerely repent . Most muslim scholars would say that if I was sincere in realizing the truth (islam per them) I will go to Jannah (heaven)

    Now consider another case, a muslim lived till 79 as a muslim. 6 months before his death he felt Hinduism is true religion. He started going to temples, chanting Narayana and Shiva Shiva publicly and he died after 6 months. Same muslim scholars would say that since he rejected the true faith he will be in hell.

    Again, if suppose I remained Hindu and died. I was expecting moksha but my soul or rooh just sat in my qabr (well where my dead body was burnt) and to my surprise on judgement day, Allah condemned me eternally to hell. From my day 1 in hell suppose I am repenting and praying to Allah it will fall in deaf ears as Allah will not reconsider his decision. No matter trillions and trillions of years I suffer in hell and repent no luck.

  21. Walter Sieruk says:

    On the subject of the question is Islam scientific or not , this lead to the topic book entitled THE ISLAMIC INVASION by Robert Morey, near the end in his book he revealed ,by authorized Islamic sources, that the founder and prophet of Islam, Muhammad, had said that “stars are missiles created by Allah to throw at devils ” Wow what insight before his time !

  22. No Pointing says:

    Islam has brought greater damaging to muslims life.

    – Blaspheme Allah, muslims have been saying he is 1 God.

    – Pray toward kabba idol.

    – Bow their head to ground and worship, devils are everywhere when they have worshipping.

    – Believe God is a prophet.

    All muslims are going toward hell. Mark 16:16, Revelation 21:8.

  23. Every word of this is true. But the question is- How many in the community are leaving Islam? And how are the others becoming- more radical or less?

  24. Mohan says:

    If true, this is great news indeed.

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