Steve (a Jew)
[email protected]
4 Jun 2002
Hi Ali,
I wonder if you could estimate what percentage of
Muslims think like you. Surely there are many others like you, and surely
they're scared to admit their feelings.
I don't have as negative a view of Islam as you - I do believe that
there are some benefits to the Muslim religion, but I know that the
radicals (Islamists) have distorted these benefits to suit their causes.
Unfortunately, these distortions have lead to the deaths of thousands of
Jews (over the years - not just in the recent intifada) and consequently
others, including Muslims, in what I believe to be justified retaliation.
I, like you, hopes there can be peace in the world some day.
I just don't think it can happen with the Islamist bug existing in
the world.
Keep up the good work,
Steve
Ali Sina Responds:
Dear Steve,
It is difficult to be accurate in this. There is no
way one can find out what is the percentage of ex-Muslims around the
world. Very few people dare to announce their disbelief publicly. Even
their own relatives could harm them.
I think there was a survey in UCLA (or it could have
been another university) where Iranians were asked about their beliefs.
75% of them declared that they have changed their beliefs. This percentage
could be even more inside Iran where Iranians were subject to first hand
atrocities by the Islamic regime. Iran of course will be the first country
that would relinquish Islam. But I believe this will put into motion a
massive exodus from Islam among the Intellectuals of all the countries.
I tell you with certainty that the end of Islam is
near and we will witness it in our own lifetime.
The reason you disagree with me to blame Islam and
think Islam can be still beneficial, is due to the fact that you do not
know Islam. I urge the intellectuals to refrain making uneducated
statements such as these. You can have no knowledge of Islam unless you
read the Quran and I doubt that you have done so. There have been some
celebrities that have made approving remarks about Islam and its prophet.
These remarks, which are based on sheer ignorance of Islam whether motivated politically or for political correctness
are being brandished by Muslims as the proof that Islam is true and then
they continue with their atrocities as inspired by the Quran.
Whether Islam is good or not is not a matter of
opinion. Islam is what is in Quran and there is nothing good in that
diabolic book.
Regards
Ali Sina
4 Jun 2002
Hi Ali,
Thanks for your response and your interesting
statistics. One thing I find
fascinating is that Muslims come from repressive regimes around the world
to freedom-loving North America, and then support their repressive regimes
here. Why are there so many
proud Arabs here in North America, talking about how great their countries
(if only I had a dime for every time I've heard "back in my
country" or "back home"!).
As for my comments about Islam, you are absolutely
right, I have not read the Koran. Why
is it that people find it so fascinating?
I can understand why it would be in famous people's best interest
to say that it is a "religion of peace" (hell, I think people
are blind if they believe that), but I don't understand why it has so many
adherents! I have thought
about reading a Koran, but I'd feel guilty about reading it completely
without having read the Torah. Once
I get through the Torah, I will sit down and read a Koran.
Then, I may be better versed to discuss issues with you. From my
point of view, it seems like the problem with Islam is the same as the
problem with Christianity. You
have a self-appointing "prophet", who's
closest adherents are his best friends.
A likely scenario, no? Christianity has thousands of holes in it
(I've studied it), but I haven't had the chance to do the same with Islam.
I hope to do it soon!
Be well,
Steve
Ali Sina Responds
I think you should certainly
read your Torah. Make sure you don't miss the book of Joshua. Of course
the Pentateuch is no better. You may get sick to your stomach of
that much killings. Then when you read the Quran you'll know where
Muhammad got his inspiration to create his religion of terror.
Humanity will come together and
will become one family when all of us abandon our antiquated beliefs that
are based on fables and myths, are against reason and are downright
stupid.
Regards
Ali Sina
Hi Ali,
With all due respect, I don't think your comment that
these books "based on fables and myths" is quite true.
There is plenty of archeological evidence
to show that the characters in the Torah were in fact people that lived in
this world in the past.
As for killing, yes, there was plenty of killing in
the Torah, but was the interpretation that today's Jews are supposed to
take up arms and kill a group of people that exist today? What was the message? Was
it to destroy the infidels? I
think in your rush to condemn the Muslim religion, you have lumped all
religions together.
See this link
Ali Sina responds:
It is amazing how we humans are
so aware of other people's follies but so bind to our own. My dear Steve,
why don't you read your Torah? Please do so. If instead of letting the
apologists of our religions brainwash us, we all read our own
"holy" books we all would find out that these are nothing but
tales of ancient people with no trace of truth. The stories of the Torah
were the stories of the Babylonians, Canaanites, Hittites and Sumerians.
The archeological discoveries have demonstrated that these stories are
much older than the Torah.
Please read the Torah and then
let us talk.
Regards
Ali,
You've gotten yourself a deal. I will read the Torah and then get back to you.
It is acknowledged that the stories of the Torah are of those
ancient civilisations. However,
there is still the remains of a Temple in Jerusalem, a burial site of the
forefathers in Hebron and Joseph's Tomb in Nablus/Shechem.
Are these not proof enough for you of Jewish existence thousands of
years ago?
Steve
Dear Steve,
Just to prove you that
Pentateuch was not written by Moses and this personage could have been a
mythological figure quiet unimportant in his own lifetime I would like to
invite you to read the last chapter of Numbers. Here it is.
DEUTERONOMY
CHAPTER 34
1
¶ And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to
the top of Pisgah, that [is] over against Jericho. And the LORD shewed him
all the land of Gilead, unto Dan,
2 And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and
Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea,
3 And the south, and the plain of the valley of
Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar.
4 And the LORD said unto him, This [is] the land
which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will
give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see [it] with thine eyes, but
thou shalt not go over thither.
5 ¶ So Moses the servant of the LORD died there
in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of
Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this
day.
7 And Moses [was] an hundred and twenty years old
when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
8 And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the
plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping [and] mourning for
Moses were ended.
9 ¶ And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the
spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children
of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.
10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel
like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
11 In all the signs and the wonders, which the
LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his
servants, and to all his land,
12 And in all that mighty hand, and in all the
great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.
Now
Pentateuch is supposed to be written by Moses. Are these possibly the
words of Moses?
Please
read the Torah. But I also invite you to read this book.
Who
Wrote the Bible?
by Richard
Elliott Friedman
Take
care
Ali Sina
Hi Ali,
According to Jewish theology, Moses transcribed the
word of G-d when he was at Sinai, and thus he was actually writing about
future events, not only about his death. EVERYTHING that happened after
Sinai was essentially foretold - why should his death be any different?
Be well,
Steve
Dear Steve,
I am a rationalist. Why
should I accept this illogical superstition and not those believed by
Muslims, Christians, Hindus or others? You are free to believe in whatever
you wish. But my standard of truth is reason and common sense.
Hi Al
Can I recommend that you read a book called
"Permission to Believe" by Lawrence Kelemen. It's a very
small book and a very easy read. I'd be> interested to hear what you
have to say about it.
Be well, Steve
If you read the Freidman's
book I'll read this.
Ali
Deal. I'll
try to get my hands on it... I assume you mean "Who Wrote the
Bible?".
I don't have time to respond to the previous email in
it's entirety. However, I again must state that you speak of evolution as
if it's infallible. Do you
not think that you are putting a little too much
"faith" in science and scientific methods?
Well, as a Jew, another reason why I must believe in
G-d is because of my own existence. There
is no explanation for the existence of Jews -
NONE.
Nasty people throughout the millennia have tried to
wipe us out – most recently in the previous century.
My grandparent's families were virtually wiped out in the
Holocaust, much like Jewish families were swept away during the
Inquisition and other attempts at ethnic cleansing (which the
"Palestinian" Arabs claim that Israel is doing right now, which
it's not).
People have tried to get rid of us since our
existence, which is where the concept of "Amalek" comes in.
We have outlived the Greeks, the Romans, the Turks, the
Phoenicians, the Egyptians and hundreds of larger civilizations!
How can you explain that?
It's just too weird for me and I can't imagine that it isn't divine
intervention. Sure, the
Holocaust was disgusting and I don't know why G-d would put the Jewish
people through it, just like I'm not sure why G-d is putting Jews through
homicide bombings and shootings daily.
However, the population of Israel is getting more
religious as a result, so if that is G-d's plan, it's working.
Anyway, I have to get ready for school.
Be well,
Steve
Dear
Steve,
You wrote,
“Do you not think that you are putting a little too
much "faith" in science and scientific methods?”
Let us understand to meaning of
the terms first.
What is faith? Faith is belief
in something without evidence. Science is the opposed of it. As a
scientist you must not believe in anything without evidence. You have to
question and doubt everything. So your statement that I have too much
faith in science shows you have very little knowledge of science.
Steve:
That's very interesting because I am a biomedical engineer and I have had
quite a training in the sciences. In fact, I'm a physics teacher.
I have two published theses and two other research papers.
I find it odd then that you seem to think I have "very little
knowledge of science". What do you know about science?
Are you more qualified to talk about science that I am? By your
comments, it seems like perhaps you are not.
The scientific method begins with a hypothesis, with experiments
following and ends with a conclusion of whether the experiments proved the
hypothesis or not. This is
easy - the hard part is explaining WHY the experiments prove the
hypothesis. Pick up any science journal (especially medical journals, to
which I have written papers) and see how ambiguous the results are - there
is rarely a definite explanation for why the results turned out the way
they did. It's usually explained by "it could be factor 1, or it
could be factor 2, but the best explanation is factor 3".
Do you want me to point out experimental results that were proven
wrong after some time? I'm
sure I can come up with thousands of examples.
Again, I believe you have way too much FAITH in science.
Science is probably wrong more than it is right.
It's unfortunate but true.
Ali Sina:
You
simply cannot believe in science. I heard this expression before by
religionists. It seems that religionists cannot think in any other way
than the way they are familiar with. Having “belief in science” is an
absurdity. The statement itself is a false statement.
Steve:
Sorry Ali, you're wrong.
Ali Sina:
It is like saying
drawing a round square. It is disappointing to see that in this day and
age there are still people who have no understanding of the of the most
elemental concept such as scientific thinking.
Steve:
Yup...people like you.
Ali Sina:
You proof of the existence of
god is also very bizarre. You believe that since the Jews have survived
their enemies there must be a god who protects them. This is absurd. There
are many nations who survived and many who disappeared. This has nothing
to do with god. All other nations that you mentioned like the “Greeks,
the Romans, the Turks, the Phoenicians, the Egyptians and hundreds of
larger civilizations” are still there. Why you think the survival of the
Jews has anything to do with miracle and proves the existence of a god?
Steve:
Look through history Ali. Tell
me a more persecuted and targetted group than the Jews.
I challenge you on this one because there isn't any.
Yet somehow, the Jews outlasted huge empires - it just so happens
that the Torah predicts this and proclaims that G-d will protect us.
There is no reason why we should be here - people have tried to
kill us too many times.
Ali Sina:
You seem to credit too much
your imaginary god for everything including horrendous things such as the
holocaust, wondering why he put the Jews under such terrible ordeal. The
fact is that god had nothing to do with the holocaust. It was a mad man
who killed the Jews. If you think god had anything to do with it, there
are three possibilities:
1)
God was unaware of what was going on
2)
God was helpless and could not do anything.
3)
God knew what was going and could help but he decided to do nothing.
In the first case your god is
ignorant
In the second case your god is
impotent
And in the third case he is a
sadistic god unworthy of any praise.
Steve:
I would think that we'd be leaning towards the 3rd, but I disagree with
your conclusion. Have you
ever talked with a Holocaust survivor?
My grandmother is one and she doesn't scorn G-d - why should you?
Her whole family was wiped out by Hitlers regime, but she still has
a love for G-d like you wouldn't believe.
In Jewish theology, everything happens for a reason. Whatever you
say about the Holocaust (there is much to say), it brought about the State
of Israel, which again is a biblical prediction.
You can choose to ignore the signs and embrace them or you can
disregard them. It's up to you.
You may say the god wanted to
teach a lesson to the Jews. Is this the way a loving god would educate his
children? In that case your god needs to be locked up in a mental
hospital.
Steve:
Who knows why G-d did what he did? There
are explanations, but I don't want to get into it right now because
obviously it's a contensious issue. The
Holocaust is unexplainable, but again, the result was a State for the
Jewish people and a strong Jewish community...
Apart from that you seem to
believe that the Jews have a special place in the heart of god. This is
obviously what the Torah seems to convey. May I ask you why you think Jews
are special? Do other nations have different gods or is it that God plays
favoritism?
Steve:
Jews are not special. They were picked to spread the message of one G-d -
monotheism. Heck, if you look
at the world right now, I'd say we've done a darn good job. At least half the world is monotheistic (between
Christianity, Islam and Buddhism) and many in India choose to believe
in one G-d, althought their faith has many gods.
Sure, G-d protects us because
we are meant to spread the message of one G-d.
It doesn't matter what religion
you choose, as long as you believe in the Almighty.
Ali Sina:
Please ponder on this. Would a god who plays favoritism be
worthy of any praise? Why should billions of humanity give a damn to a god
who does not love them the same way as he loves his “chosen people”?
What the Jews have done to deserve this station? Don’t you think this is
all absurd? Doesn’t this much absurdity bother you at all?
Steve:
I don't think it's absurd at all. Again,
we were "chosen" to perform a task.
The world was polytheistic/pagan before the Jews came along.
We've made quite a contribution to the world. We don't think we are holier than anybody, and if you think that, you know little of the
Jewish faith. There are the
seven Noachide laws by which all non-Jews must obey - Jews take upon
themselves to abide by 613 laws - we are much harsher on ourselves than
anyone else, because G-d gave us these laws.
I think you should study a bit more about Judaism before you make
assumptions such as the ones you make about my faith.
Ali Sina:
The funny thing is that Muslims
also believe they are chosen by virtue of believing in Allah. Doesn’t
this crazy thought make you laugh? Then why should we not laugh at your
equally crazy belief?
Steve:
Why? Because my ancestors
were all there at Sinai to hear G-d.
In Islam, only Mohammed talked to Allah - I can make the claim that
G-d talked to me, but would you believe me?
However, if 3,000,000 people, who all happened to be at the same
place at the same time (Sinai) told you G-d talked to them, wouldn't that
be a bit more of a convincing argument?
Surely you're not accusing 3,000,000 Jews at Sinai of lying, are
you? If there were any
disbelievers after that, the whole Jewish faith wouldn't have gotten off
the ground...but it did. What
does that tell you?
Ali Sina:
Children like to believe they
are the favorite ones most loved by their parents. But when they grow and
become adults they give up this self-centeredness and will no more see
themselves as the center of universe but realize they are part of a whole
and that whole is the family. Humans also grow and go through the stages
of childhood, puberty and adulthood. It was natural for primitive people
whose intellectual maturity was no more than the children think of
themselves as the chosen people and the favorite nations. But we have
abandoned these childish beliefs. None of us is superior to others by
virtue of our nationality, race or belief. We are all ONE: members of one
human family. There is no chosen ones among us. We are all the same. Only
when we grasp this truth we will be able to live in peace with each other.
Steve:
Again, you don't seem to understand the Jewish concept of "chosenness"
-Muslims might think they are "chosen" and thus are on a higher
plane than anybody (i.e.
giving non-Muslims dhimmi status), but that is not the Jewish believe.
We do not consider ourselves better - we are meant to spread a
message. Again, I believe you
are speaking of Judaism out of ignorance. Judaism's ultimate goal is to
live in peace with eachother - hopefully you will be around to see peace,
in the time of our Moshiach.
My best wishes
Ali Sina
Steve:
Well, I hope you learn to limit your assumptions, both of other people and
of other Judaism. You jumped
to the conclusion that I don't know about science and you jumped to
conclusions about Judaism. I
think you have a natural bias against Judaism because of your hatred of
Islam. Please, don't make
assumptions of all religions just because of your prejudice against Islam.
Judaism is not Islam - please don't treat it that way.
Look forward to hearing your responses,
Ali Sina Responds:
June 12, 2002
Dear Steve,
You talk about your
qualifications, but what you say is scientific heresies. Which part of the
science agrees with creation for example? You say that something accepted
today by science turns out to be not so tomorrow and then conclude that I
have too much “faith” in science. The only thing I have “faith” in
is in the scientific process. And as you explained correctly our
understanding of science is evolving. This means that there are no dogmas
to believe in. We accept that the theories of today can be debunked
tomorrow. This is not the
case with religions that preach a set of dogmas that one has to believe
without any evidence even though those dogmas go against commonsense.
Therefore your claim that I have faith is science is absurd. Faith is
acceptance of something without evidence. By your own definition one
cannot believe in science without evidence or it won’t be science.
In our previous communication I
quoted the Deuteronomy Chapter 34. This clearly shows that the author was
not Moses. But in the most bizarre act of faith you came up with the
statement that Moses wrote those verses. Would you accept such absurd
statement if it was uttered by a Christian or a Muslim? Certainly not! Do
you believe that Muhammad split the moon or Jesus walked on the waters? Of
course not! But you have no difficulty accepting the most ridiculous
stories of the Bible such as those of creation, Adam and Eve, Noah’s
Arc, Jonah surviving in the belly of a wale, etc.
You say Jews were the most
persecuted people in the history. This is because you only know of Jewish
history. The human history is written with the blood of innocent people.
Despots constantly attacked other nations, killed and looted. Arabs
murdered millions of Iranians when they came to force their cult on us.
Mongols decimated the Iranians. All peoples were persecuted at times and
were persecutors at other times. Jews are not the exception. If God wanted
really to protect the Jews, he certainly would not have allowed those
persecutions. What about those millions of Jews who did not make it and
succumbed to the persecutions? Weren’t they Jews? Were they the bad
apples? This god you are describing is the most petulant and ruthless god.
What kind of father would let his children go through this much trial and
do nothing?
You wrote, “The Holocaust is
unexplainable, but again, the result was a State for the Jewish people and
a strong Jewish community...” What a lame excuse! Go and tell that to 6
million Jews cremated in Hitler’s infernos and tell them rejoice for
Yahweh made you sacrifice so other Jews can have a country of their own
where they freely do to others what others did to them for two thousand
years.
As I said children think of
themselves as centers of universe. It is sad that in this day and age a
nation such as Jews has not matured enough to abandon this childish belief
and realize that the events that take place in the world do not revolve
around them. Neither you nor I nor anyone else is special in the sight of
God.
You say the Jews were given a
mission to preach monotheism to the rest of the world. Here you missed
three points.
a)
Jews were not monotheists at first. As a matter of fact they
believed that each nation has its own god and Yahweh is the god of the
Jews. Of course just like children who like to think their father is the
most powerful man, Jews used to think that their god is more powerful than
other gods. There are many references to other gods in the Bible. I quote
just a few of them here:
- God
standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods
- How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept
the persons of the wicked? Selah.
- Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice
to the afflicted and needy.
- Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of
the hand of the wicked.
- They know not, neither will they understand;
they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of
course.
- I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are
children of the most High.
- But ye shall die like men, and fall like one
of the princes.
- Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou
shalt inherit all nations.
As you see here the Psalmist
is speaking of a multitude of gods giving hegemony to Yahweh. But
interestingly even Yahweh is alluding yet to another god who is the
supreme. Doesn’t this prove that Judaism in its early stages was not
monotheistic but a religion just like other religions of the region that
believed in a pantheon of gods? Read these verses for more evidence.
"He assigned to each
nation a god but Jacob’s descendents he chose for himself" (Deut.
32:9)
"The Lord alone led his people without the help of a foreign god:
(Deut. 32:12)
"Lord who among the gods is like you"? (Ex 15:11)
"The Lord the God of the Hebrews…" (Ex 7:16)
I
have a list of these verses in my article The Evolution of Monotheism
where I show that the credit for monotheism should be given to an
unwitting zeal of Paul the evangelist and not to any of the founders of
major religions. Here is that article:
b)
The next issue is the question whether monotheism is a good thing.
First of all there is no evidence that this universe is created by a deity
at all. As a matter of fact the contrary can be proven. See this article
But let us leave aside the fallacy of the existence of such creator and
let us see whether the belief is such god is good.
From the history we learn
that prior to monotheism, people fought over usual things that people
fight for but never they fought over “Truth” of “God”. After the
introduction of monotheism people started to fight over this god and
millions of lives were lost to promote this vengeful deity. Al though
Allah was originally a different god, because of the influence of
Judaism on Muhammad, his god acquired the characteristics of Yahweh and
became a vengeful, paranoid and jealous god just like his Jewish
counterpart.
More people were killed
through religious wars by believers in monotheism trying to right
everybody’s faith than for any other cause. The polytheistic religions
simply do not have the tradition of fighting to impose the belief in a
god or gods. Polytheistic societies were and still are more tolerant
than monotheistic ones. If
we want to be honest to the history we have to admit that monotheism has
been a curse to humanity. It makes the followers of a single god
intolerant of other beliefs. If you want to pride yourself for being
part of a nation that introduced monotheism, you should not. There is
nothing to be proud of in believing in a jealous, narcissist, paranoid,
despot deity such as the one you and other monotheists believe in.
c)
But apart from all that, you claimed that “Jews are not special.
They were picked to spread the message of one G-d - monotheism.
Heck, if you look at the world right now, I'd say we've done a darn
good job.” Excuse me, Jews
never taught monotheism to anyone. The belief in the Jewish deity spread
to the rest of the world not by the Jews but by the Christians. The very
Christians whose founder you Jews crucified. If the Jews are chosen to
indoctrinate the rest of the world with monotheism they have not done so.
They have failed miserably to their duties. It is amazing that on one hand
you killed Jesus and denounce for 2000 years his follower and now you want
to take credit for their work.
You say that 3,000,000 of
your ancestors in Sinai heard God with their own ears. My friend, this
is a myth concocted centuries after Moses was dead, by a few Jewish
Rabies. In reality god never spoke to anyone. What you read in the Bible
are fables. There is no truth in these stories. The Rabies used to
gather people in the temples and tell them stories. These are just
stories. They are fictions made up by a bunch of priests. I read the
Quran and only then I found out that this book is pure nonsense. Please
read your Torah and if you are capable to use your rational thinking,
you too will find out that Torah also is a book of gibberish fit for the
shallow minded primitive people. It certainly cannot convince any
rational being let alone one who claims to be a teacher of science in
this 21st century.
So to recapitulate, You Jews
are not special. You are just one nation among the family of nations.
Neither one of these nations is “chosen”. What makes you better to be
chosen? Why you should be given the privilege to spread the belief in
monotheism and not the Intuits? Only
when all of us abandon this childish self-centeredness peace will be
possible. Without that we will be victims of vainglory and arrogance. This
causes misunderstanding and estrangement.
The “gift” of monotheism
that you believe is the contribution of Judaism to the world is an evil
omen. The world would be a much more peaceful place to live without this
dogma.
Monotheism is a logical
fallacy. The belief in any god as a being is an absurdity. Your belief is
a lie. There is no glory in believing in a lie.
And finally, monotheism was never
spread by the Jews. If you were chosen for this mission, you failed your
mission. The Christians and the Muslims took over this lie and now they
are championing it.
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