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Denis Giron



Joined: 07 Sep 2002
Posts: 104
Location: New York City, Darul-Kufr

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pax Vobis Spinoza

That sounds great. I anxiously await that, and my buddies Lewis and Short are at my side waiting with me. The crux of Nadir's argument is that if you have an anceint or medieval text that contains eight statements that can be correlated with modern science, there is no sensible explanation save that a "greater power" is the author of the text. If you can come up with eight statements from Virgil, that'll be just fine. Though Nadir might try to then raise other Qur'anic statements aside from the eight he has already called to witness, it would be a moot point if we can demonstrate at least eight in other texts. I myself have been planning on correlating passages from the medieval Hebrew poems of Ibn Ezra with modern science, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll get cracking on that later this week.
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PeaceOnEarth



Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denis/Spinoza,

I am not understanding why you are trying to find other sources with 8 or more "miracles" to disqualify Nadir's claims.

You do not need to do this if you agree:
(a) that those "miracles" pointed out by Nadir Ahmed are not scientific facts in the Quran - people like Nadir are taking far-fetched explanations to extract such ideas out of Quran when they are not in the Quran to begin with.
and
(b) that even if the Quran has scientific miracles, it cannot be the word of God. Worse, it could be the word of Satan for all the inhuman principles outlined in the Quran. Scientic facts cannot obviate a need to look at this ominous side of Quran;

Both these arguments have been raised very effectively by Ali Sina in the debate but Nadir has chosen to side step them.

But more than that, Nadir Ahmed is not clear what his hypothesis is. Is he saying that, if there are "miracles" (or scientific facts not likely to be known to an ordinary man), then the book containing 8 such miracles is a word of God?

If Nadir is claiming this, then is he willing to find any work that meets this requirement to be a work of God as well? If he does not agree, then he needs to qualify his criteria to distinguish Quran somehow.

Nadir has not done that.

In a previous message, I had provided an example of a mathematical genius of 20th century who has shown mathematical "miracles". I have mentioned in that article "the miraculous" mathematical theorems proven by an individual who had never had any formal education. His works are far superior to any "miracles" in Quran, far more objective, and are still a subject of inquiry of many doctoral students in math departments.

There is no need to find some Latin or Hebrew literature to find "miracles". The above is more than sufficient to pose these questions to Nadir Ahmed:
* Do you call this a work of God?
* How is Quran superior to this work?
* Given that this work is more objective than the Quran and has more superior miracles, do you agree that it is a bigger miracle than the Quran?
_________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Russell
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
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PeaceOnEarth



Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:23 am    Post subject: Nadir Ahmed's approach is not scientific Reply with quote

What science is Nadir talking about? His approach (or that of Quran for that matter) is far from scientific.

For one thing, scientific work is never cast in stone. It is open to debate and correction.

The Scientific Method From observation to law

People have long examined things in the world and wondered about them. The scientific method is a process to construct a reliable, consistent, and non-arbitrary representation of the world. There is no one "scientific method" that all scientists follow as an algorithm. Science allows for creativity, genius, inspiration and new ideas to enter at any stage in the scientific process. What differentiates science from non-science is that such creativity is tested against experimental results, reviewed and published.

Step 1 Observation:
A good scientist is observant and notices things in the world around him/herself. (S)he sees, hears, or in some other way notices what’s going on in the world and becomes curious about what’s happening. This can and does include reading and studying what others have done in the past because scientific knowledge is cumulative. In physics, when Newton came up with his Theory of Motion, he based his hypothesis on the work of Copernicus, Kepler, and Galileo as well as his own, newer observations.

Step 2 Question:
The scientist then raises a question about what (s)he sees going on. The question raised must have a “simple,” concrete answer that can be obtained by performing an experiment. For example, “How many students came to school today?” could be answered by counting the students present on campus, but “Why did you come to school today?” couldn’t really be answered by doing an experiment.

Step 3 Hypothesis:
This is a tentative answer to the question: a testable explanation for what was observed. The scientist tries to explain what caused what was observed. Hypotheses are based on previous knowledge, facts, and general principles. Your answer to the question of what caused the observed effect will be based on your previous knowledge of what causes similar effects in similar situations. Multiple hypotheses should be proposed whenever possible. One should think of alternative causes that could explain the observation (the correct one may not even be one that was thought of!)

Step 4 Prediction:
Next, the experimenter uses deductive reasoning to test the hypothesis.
Deductive reasoning flows from general to specific. From general premises, a scientist would extrapolate to specific results: if all organisms have cells and humans are organisms, then humans should have cells. This is a prediction about a specific case based on the general premises.
Generally, in the scientific method, if a particular hypothesis/premise is true and “X” experiment is done, then one should expect (prediction) a certain result.

Step 5 Testing:
Then, the scientist performs an experiment to see if the predicted results are obtained. If the expected results are obtained, that supports (but does not prove) the hypothesis. If the expected results are NOT obtained, then the hypothesis is modified.

Often in science when doing the experiment, a controlled experiment is used. The scientist must contrast an “experimental group” with a “control group”. The two groups are treated EXACTLY alike except for the ONE variable being tested. Sometimes several experimental groups may be used. For example, in an experiment to test the effects of day length on plant flowering, one could compare normal, natural day length (the control group) to several variations (the experimental groups).

When doing an experiment, replication is important. Everything should be tried several times on several subjects. For example, in the experiment just mentioned, a student scientist would have at least three plants in the control group and each of the experimental groups, while a “real” researcher would probably have several dozen. If a scientist had only one plant in each group, and one of the plants died, there probably would be no way of determining if the cause of death was related to the experiment being conducted.

The experimenter gathers actual, quantitative data from the experiment. Data needs to be compared statistically. It’s not enough to say that the average for group “X” was one thing and the average for group “Y” was another, so they were different or not. The scientist must also calculate the standard deviation or some other statistical analysis to document that any difference is statistically significant.

Step 6 Analysis:
The results of experiments are analyzed. Often this leads to more and different experiments to examine other variables. Sometimes an experiment yields and unexpected result that changes the whole idea and a new hypothesis is then created and tested.
Research is cumulative and progressive. Scientists build on the work of previous researchers, and one important part of any good research is to first do a literature review to find out what previous research has already been done in the field. Science is a process — new things are being discovered and old, long-held theories are modified or replaced with better ones as more data/knowledge is accumulated.

Publish:
When, the scientist finds information by experimentation that has value for other scientists, it is written up in a particular format and sent to a Scientific Journal. A scientific paper contains not only the conclusions of the work, but also a detailed description of the data and methods used to generate the data. Scientific Journals have a set of reviewers who examine the paper for any obvious flaws in researchers methodology. Often scientific papers must pass intense scrutiny and sometimes an important paper will result in a conference of scientists who will examine, critique and discuss the merits of the research. Sometimes further experimentation and replication of results is demanded before a new idea or finding is accepted. This level of scrutiny is designed to ensure that as people do further research, the previous results were acceptably valid, and can be reliably used to base further research.

Hypothesis changes to a theory:
A theory is a generalization based on many observations and experiments; a well-tested, verified hypothesis that fits existing data and explains how processes or events are thought to occur. It is a basis for predicting future events or discoveries. Theories may be modified as new information is gained. This definition of a theory is in sharp contrast to colloquial usage, where people say something is “just a theory,” thereby intending to imply a great deal of uncertainty. When observations and ideas become a scientific theory it means that those ideas have been widely tested, replicated, and validated by numerous experiments and facts.

Theory changes to a Law:
When description of a natural phenomena does not vary, and withstands every test and experiment, over time it becomes a Scientific Law. Even at this stage, Laws are subject to open questioning and even one scientific evidence against it is sufficient to topple it. That it is testable and falsifiable is of fundamental importance for a law to be considered scientific.
_________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Russell
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."


Last edited by PeaceOnEarth on Thu Jan 15, 2004 4:48 am; edited 2 times in total
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rand



Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 1858

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points Peace On Earth. I hope Nadir will address some of these issues.


Let's assume for arguments sake that there are 8 miraculous scientific verses in quran.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5111/islam.html writes:

Quote:
The Qur'an does not name all of God's messengers (40:7Cool but does, in various locations, list twenty-five that were sent to the Semitic peoples, including Adam, Noah, Moses, Job and Jesus. Muslim popular belief holds the total number of prophets to be 124,000 and other numbers, such as 144,000 and one million, are also thrown around.

Hence, these words can be plagiarized from a prophet that lived before or after muhammad.
So if we are forced to accept that those 8 verses must be from prophecy (and I am very far from reaching that point) then that does not prove that the rest of the quran is via prophecy.

Quote:
[6.39] And they who reject Our communications are deaf and dumb, in utter darkness; whom Allah pleases He causes to err and whom He pleases He puts on the right way.

It is possible that God is causing you to err by seeing miracles in the Quran.

Best regards,
Rand
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Nadir_ahmed



Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I HAVE FORWARDED MY CHALLENGE TO JOHN ESPOSITO AND OTHERS...

http://www.examinethetruth.com/Challenge_Sina.htm




IM SUCH A FILTHY MUSLIM Twisted Evil



thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com
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bread



Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 2067
Location: Eurasia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nadir_ahmed wrote:
I HAVE FORWARDED MY CHALLENGE TO JOHN ESPOSITO AND OTHERS...

http://www.examinethetruth.com/Challenge_Sina.htm




IM SUCH A FILTHY MUSLIM Twisted Evil



thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com


Dear Mr. Nadir Ahmed,

that is great! when can we expect Mr. Esposito and the ``Others`` here? Looking forward to discussing wioth them. Very Happy Very Happy

By the way, did you read my last question? I am patiently waiting for your answers and if you have any, for your proofs.
_________________
Bread, proudly a former Muslim who saw the light.Islam is the only personality cult dedicated to a dead man, Muhammad. Muhammad is the only paedophile, antisemite, ethnic cleanser and rapist who is worshipped and praised for ``moral``behaviour.
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PeaceOnEarth



Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nadir Ahmed seems to have accepted his defeat. He now realizes that the arguments in this thread are too strong and clearly undermine the Quran. So what did this self-proclaimed filthy muslim do?

He removed all references to this thread which he had on his web site until sometime ago today.

Nadir,
You are not just a filthy as you have called yourself. You are a cowardly loser too. I dare you to restore the link to this thread. Let all the readers of your website see the link to this thread.
_________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Russell
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."


Last edited by PeaceOnEarth on Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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bread



Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 2067
Location: Eurasia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Nadir Ahmed seems to have accepted his defeat. He now realizes that the arguments in this thread are too strong and clearly undermine the Quran. So what did this self-proclaimed filthy muslim do?

He removed all references to this thread which he had on his web site until sometime ago today.


Is that True Mr. Nadir??? Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad

What happened to freedom of _expression? Why the censorship, Mr. Nadir?

You said those who win post the debate. Now why have you removed the link? Do you feel you lost??
_________________
Bread, proudly a former Muslim who saw the light.Islam is the only personality cult dedicated to a dead man, Muhammad. Muhammad is the only paedophile, antisemite, ethnic cleanser and rapist who is worshipped and praised for ``moral``behaviour.
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adnan



Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 3092
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guys i think there are still some links left, check it out.
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X



Joined: 08 Dec 2002
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nadir_ahmed wrote:
I HAVE FORWARDED MY CHALLENGE TO JOHN ESPOSITO AND OTHERS...

http://www.examinethetruth.com/Challenge_Sina.htm




IM SUCH A FILTHY MUSLIM Twisted Evil



thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com


what about your arguments about science and the Quran? Did you forget about those. You lost the debate on that one now you are changing gears, I find this very strange
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X



Joined: 08 Dec 2002
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

X wrote:
Nadir_ahmed wrote:
I HAVE FORWARDED MY CHALLENGE TO JOHN ESPOSITO AND OTHERS...

http://www.examinethetruth.com/Challenge_Sina.htm




IM SUCH A FILTHY MUSLIM Twisted Evil



thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com



what about your arguments about science and the Quran? Did you forget about those. You lost the debate on that one now you are changing gears, I find this very strange



The Prophet of Islam and his rightly-guided Caliphs saw to it that no trace was left of the pre-Islamic religion and culture of Arabia, not even in the consciousness of the converts. Franz Babinger writes vis-a-vis the pre-Islamic Sabaean civilization of Arabia: “The new creed had the greatest interest in obliterating all recollection of the pagan period, not only in stone monuments which still survived the natural weathering--these were destroyed to provide material for new buildings, or burned for lime or sometimes out of sheer vandalism--but also in literature, and even in consigning the ancient language to oblivion.”

First Encyclopaedia of Islam 1913-1936, Leiden, 1987, Vol. VII, P. 15.
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trubluearthling



Joined: 31 Dec 2003
Posts: 32
Location: New Kafirland

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post

It is particularly irksome when Nadir prods Dr Sina shut down the site every now and then. Add to that the regular rude, insulting, boastful and colourless language he uses to play down the event. Poor Nadir thinks all this is a surefire recipe for success, a psychological advantage over his opponent. If it makes you feel better Nadir, good onya. Little does he realise that HE is the one beaten left right and centre. Is Ali's second response added in his website yet?

Nadir Ahmed wrote:

Quote:
IM SUCH A FILTHY MUSLIM


If Mr Nadir gets his inspiration from the Quran we should take it in stride when he says something consistent with the teaching of that book- contradictory, repetitive, incoherent, confusing and downright evil.

Nadir Ahmed also wrote these:
Quote:
And Now... we have come for you, Ali Sina

Quote:
All the cheap polemics of the Christians and Atheists have been silenced and refuted in this one debate.

Quote:
no ... no.. ali.... Im not going to let you run....

Quote:
who cares... yawn....

Quote:
But if you run Ali, then it will not be the first time ,many have done so,the Scientific and Archaeological evidences of the Quran is IRREFUTABLE .. .. I think you know that Ali... that probably explains your reluctancy....

Quote:
What the...??? I never stated that this is "the only thing I want to talk about" this is a LIE.

Quote:
The debate has not even begun yet and you have already been proven wrong!

Quote:

What the..... this is a complete LIE !!!!!!! Now, Ali Sina, by the grace of God, you have been exposed as a liar just like Robert Morey:

Quote:
I am challenging you.... to show your evidence for this statement which you have made, if you can not, then this will expose you as a liar once and for all

Quote:
I can kinda figure, that Ali Sina will never post this debate the debate folder....


When I jump to your website can I expect to see the whole debate as it happened. Or at least ALL of what YOU and ALI SINA wrote, unabridged?

Do you still stand your ground Nadir?
_________________
An ex-muslim since 1989. Islam robbed me of my sweet childhood. Filled them with terrifying memories. Now as an avowed atheist, humanist and a staunch anti-islam activist I chase Islam into its own doom.
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Piggy



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 1168

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nadir sounds/writes like Menj????

Similar mentality, attitude and crass, egotistical absurdness.

This person doesn't deserve any more attention, or time wasted on his ridiculous claims.

I think it is highly possible that this person, Nadir is deliberately here to attract attention to his web-site and throw a spanner in the works to create a diversion for Ali, in the knowledge that Ali is currently engaged in REAL DEBATE with WORTHY opponents.

Giving credit where it is due.........Nadir is a good laugh though. Laughing
_________________
"Let us take our refuge in the community of those who seek the truth and endeavor to live in the truth"
-Let the Children Play - Bring Joy to the World-
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haverbob



Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 1

New postPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:54 am    Post subject: To Mr Nadir and Mr Sina Reply with quote

Please excuse me if I have missed something because I am new. Mr. Nadir, it seems as though you feel that if the Qur'an agrees with science, it is proof that it is the direct word of God. So you are using science as somewhat of an official arbitrator here. Just remember, if you want to get in bed with science, you have to stay in bed with science.
Has anyone thought of asking this whole "scientific validity" question backwards? Remember, that since the Qur'an is the direct word of God, word for word, there cannot be even the slightest of errors, and if there is a scientific error (since you like to use science), then the entire Qur'an falls to peices because it was claimed as directly from God. I didn't make that rule, Islam did.

So, Mr. Nadir, could you please explain to everyone about the jinn and shooting stars and explain how science would agree with thus?

Q. 72: 8
“And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors.
9.
And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him;"

Q. 37: 6/10
Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.

Notice the word "pursued"? Do you believe that science would agree or disagree with this? Please explain. I have never, in my life EVER had a Muslim give me any sort of explanation for this. I believe that science would say that it is more like the earth pursuing the shooting stars (meteorite particles) by running in to them during it's rotation. The particles themselves are relatively stationary.

Go here to review what science says
http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question12.html

Then, please tell me how you reconcile this.

Q. 67: 5
And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

I don't know if this one is the right translation. Here is my source.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/067.qmt.html. This is the University of Southern California website, not some hokey homepage.
it has translations from YUSUFALI, PICKTHAL and SHAKIR and all three uses the word missile. Why are these three translators mistranslating the Qur'an? If you claim that missile was really supposed to mean something like projectile or something else, it would still be the same. It stills comes off as something fired at the Jinn and something that pursues the jinn. We know that is not true. Meteorites are not fired at anyone, nor do they "pursue" anything. They get caught up by the earth's movement.
Unless you can answer me credibly and clearly, you have lost this debate. This is surely an incorrect explanation of meteorites, Therefore it would appear that the Qur'an is not the direct word of God and that therefore either Muhammed was delusional or he lied. Case closed. Bailiff, bring in the next religion.
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mughal200



Joined: 16 Feb 2002
Posts: 533
Location: UK

New postPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello haverbob,

welcome to the forum, it is very nice to have you here.

Thanks for the insightful commnets.

Regards and

 

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