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"Fatimah ." <[email protected]
17 Jun 2002
I visited your website recently and read a few
articles, which are not convincing enough. So I would like to take your
challenge and have a logical debate with you. I would prefer you to start
the debate with your stand because I do not really understand your ideas,
as posted on the website. If you do not reply to me, I take it that you
have already been defeated by someone else in the challenge. Hope to hear
from you soon :).
Ali Sina responds:
06/17/02
Dear Fatimah,
Thank you for accepting my
challenge to prove me wrong on Islam. Actually you can read any of the
articles posted here and disprove it. For example we state that Quran is a
bunch of nonsense that is full of errors, we proved this claim in several
articles classified in the section under Quran in Articles pages. We claim
that Muhammad was a pervert man with many flaws. This too we proved in
many articles. But since you want me to point you to a specific topic I
comply.
We claim that Muhammad was a
rapist, a pedophile and a lustful womanizer unfit to be called a descent
human being let along a messenger of God. In these articles we make our
claims. Please read them and if you can prove us wrong you can be assured
that I immediately will remove the content of this site and instead will
write a statement apologizing for slandering Islam and declare that Islam
is a true religion. Not only that I will strap a bomb to my waist and go
killing many innocent people so Allah reward me with a lot of houris in
the other world.
Here are the articles that you
can read to start with.
http://main.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/safiyah.htm
http://main.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SKM/zeinab.htm
http://main.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/maryah.htm
http://main.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm
http://main.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha_age.htm
http://main.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha_moraleval.htm
These are short articles
proving that Muhammad was an evil person. I hope you can show that I am
wrong. I have issued this challenge over a year ago and there have been
few Muslims you like you accepted my challenge and debated with me. You
can read the discussion that I had with them in this
page.
If however you fail to respond,
is it fair if I assume you have no answer and I am right? You can also
talk with Islamic scholars and ask them to help. It does not matter who
proves me wrong. If anyone can prove me wrong I will remove my site.
Take care
Ali Sina
07/01/02
Dear Fatimah,
It is almost two weeks since
you wrote to me and invited me for debate. I accepted your challenge. But
I have not heard from you yet. I hope you have had the chance to reflect
on Islam and have realized that this is no religion of any god but the
machination of a sick mind. But if you still believe in Islam please do
send me your refutation of my claims. I am still waiting.
Regards
Ali Sina
19 Jul 2002
Fatimah wrote:
Actually, I've already sent you two e-mails but from
a different e-mail account. Did you get them? Well, in my previous two
e-mails I had some questions because I wanted to know more about your
ideas before carrying on with the debate. Well, I would like to know your
qualifications and for how many years have you studied the Quran?
Are you an atheist? Is the Prophet's(may peace and
blessings be upon him) behaviour, which you claim to be not moral, the
main reason for you rejecting Islam? If not, what is your main reason/s
for rejecting Islam?
What first influenced you to reject Islam? What do
you hope to achieve by liberating people from Islam and do you think the
world be a better place without Islam?
What are your views on the other major monotheistic
religions: Christianity and Judaism? If I'm not wrong, most of the answers
to the above questions can be found scattered around in your website,
which I visited some time back and I can't remember certain things. But I
would greatly appreciate it if you could answer my questions directly,
instead of sending hyperlinks, which I understand is easier and
time-saving.
You may take as long as you want to reply, but please
do send direct answers and not hyperlinks, then, I may be better able to
understand your reasons and the debate would be more effective.
Dear Fatimah,
I prefer we concentrate on the
issues and not on personalities. I have requested my friends to call me
Ali Sina instead of Dr. Sina because I do not wish to give the impression
that because of my title I am some kind of authority on religious subjects. My background has
nothing to do with religion or theology. As far as religion you can
consider me to be a layman. I would like you to concentrate on the issues
that I raise and not who I am. Do not take my word as an authority. Do not
accept anything I say if I do not back it by evidence. In other words do
not pay attention to the messenger but listen to the message and verify it
before accepting it.
As for my knowledge of Quran is
concerned, I studied this book and I know what it says but I am not a
Quran thumber. I cannot quote you verses of the Quran off my head. This is
a different art that has nothing to do with understanding the Quran.
I am not an atheist, though I
do not believe in Allah or other gods of Semitic religions. I believe in
the Single Principle underlying the creation. I believe in “God” as
the interactive force of all elements of the universe.
There are two reasons for which
I reject Islam:
a)
The founder of Islam lacked the moral and ethical qualifications
for such task. His conduct was disgraceful. Certainly no man with such
vile character could possibly be the spiritual guidance for humanity. If
Muhammad was a liar, his whole message could be a lie.
b)
The book that he left and his entire message are wrong, illogical
and absurd. It is obvious that the maker of this universe cannot be as
stupid as it appears to be in the Quran.
You asked what first influenced
me to reject Islam. I read the Quran and I was shocked and this made me
think and eventually realize that this book cannot be from God but
hallucinations of a mentally sick man.
You asked: ”What do you hope
to achieve by liberating people from Islam and do you think the world be a
better place without Islam?”
I see Islam as the main cause
of ignorance of the Muslim nations. We are poor, we are backward, we are
violent because of Islam. Muslims are constantly fighting with everybody
else and amongst each other. The Islamic terrorism is the direct result of
the teachings of Quran. The reason I want to eradicate Islam is because I
care. It pains me to see so much misery, so much bloodshed, so much human
suffering and so many lives lost for a lie. This insanity must stop. We
deserve better. How can we call ourselves humans if we do not care about
other humans?
You asked: ”What are your
views on the other major monotheistic religions: Christianity and
Judaism?”
I do not believe in a personal
god so I do not believe in any “revealed” religion. But I do not want
to be the champion of truth. If believing in false religions make people
happy I am not going to decry that.. If a religion does not call
upon its followers abuse the human rights of others, I have no intention
to fight against it even if that religion is a lie. Today Islam is the
only major religion that fits the profile of a violent cult. I believe we
must expose Islam as our first priority if we want to save the humanity.
Regards
Ali Sina
12 Sep 2002
Fatimah Wrote:
I
hope you remember that we were debating about the contents in your
website about a few months ago. I think we sent two or three e-mails
but you have yet to comment on my last reply. If you don't reply, I
assume that you have accepted that what you had written in your
previous reply is wrong or someone else have debated with you and
proven to you that what you have written in your website is wrong. If
you have not received my last reply, I can send it to you again. I
have read in another website that you don't post all the e-mails, sent
by people debating with you, on your website. I read that you
selectively choose and post only certain e-mails on your website. I
wonder if this is really true. So if you are a person who really keeps
his words, you should at least reply to me or remove the wrong
contents from your website. To refresh your memory, here's what you
wrote in your last reply to me
Dear Fatima,
What I posted here is what I received from you. I
did not receive any other emails. Now of course I have created a forum.
Obviously anyone can write anything in the forum and it appears
immediately. So what you read about me is clearly false, which proves
Islamists are desperate and instead of reasoning resort to slander.
Nevertheless this slander is self defeating since there is a forum where
anyone can post whatever he or she wants.
Also I suggest you post your refutation of my
criticism of Islam in the forum. In this way we do not have to speculate
whether your emails got to my hands or not.
Here is the link to the
forum
Debate with Fatimah Part 2
Dec. 5, 2002
Fatimah:
I sent you a reply some months back and you said that you did not
receive it so here’s something similar to what I wrote in that e-mail:
You wrote: I don’t completely understand this. Could you further explain
what you idea of God is? Do you believe in the last day?
Sina:
I believe in a Principle underlying the creation.
It is not of course the same kind of God religionists believe in. In other
words I do not believe that the Principle is the creator. But it is the
underlying principle of creation. It does not have a personality.
Therefore it does not act. And as a consequence, it does not answer
prayers, it does not send messengers, it does not guide you, it does not
think about you, it does not reward or punish you. However everything that
exists, exists by virtue of it. It is self-subsisting but everything else
depends on it. It does not have any form or existence yet it is the only
reality that exists. Every other thing is an illusion. Nothing actually
has substantial reality. Everything you see and perceive with your senses
is chimera. The Single Principle is the only Reality. The physical existence is the
function of this Reality. The relation of the universe to the Principle is
like the relation you have to your thoughts. You exist but your thoughts
are just a function of you. Likewise, the Principle exists and the
Universe is the function of It. To put this in a metaphor think of the
universe as a thought of God.
This is a long philosophical subject and it is irrelevant
to the issue of Islam. Let us assume that God is what the average person
thinks. Let us say he is the creator of this universe and he created humans and he sends messengers to guide them. Allah
does not fit this description. Allah is a sadist. An evil being who does
not guide people into being loving, caring, and accepting of each other.
He is desperate to be worshiped. He is so desperate that if you do not
worship him he threatens to burn you for eternity. What kind of God is
this? He brainwashes those who are fool enough to believe in him to kill
other innocent human beings if they do not believe in him. He orders his
followers to wage war, to loot, to rape and to enslave people. His
promises of heaven and hell are lies. First of all his heaven is just for
men. "The majority of the women will go to hell" as his
"prophet" used to say. But then that heaven is a carnal heaven.
When we die our body becomes dust. Any idiot can see that. What remains of
us is supposedly our spirit. Spirits do not need to eat fruits and drink
wine. They do not need to have orgies with 72 houris. What insanity is
this? Why can't you see that this savage man was lying? Those who believed
in him were ignorant primitive savages like him. How can anyone in the
21st century still believe in the lies of this crazy
man? If there is a soul after death, the other world must be a
spiritual realm. Spirits do not have sex organs to copulate. The main
function of sex is reproduction. Are spirits going to have children too?
Why you people have forsaken your brains? Why you let a charlatan of the
7th century fool you to this degree of insanity?
And I have another question: Do you believe that men need the guidance
of his/her Creator, or God, or whatever it is that you believe in?
I think this question is already answered. There
is no creator nor there is anyone to guide. There has never been any
guidance. If you read the so-called holy books, especially the Quran that
are supposedly the books of guidance, you’ll find that they are replete
with errors. It would be a mistake to rely on these books that are so
misguiding. Humanity can find guidance through the Golden Rule. Do to
others what you expect to be done to you. If you practice this rule you
can find all guidance you ever need. Furthermore we can learn from great philosophers
such as Socrates, Plato, Confucius, Buddha and other seers. But they are
just humans and they too could be wrong. This is important to know that no
theory is absolutely right. If we stop believing in absolutes then we
become more tolerant. We concede that probably we may be wrong and
it is better not to be harsh with those who do not think like us.
Intolerance is the an effect of certitude. When you are absolutely sure
that what you believe is right you become intolerant of those who do not
agree with you and this is the problem with the absolutist and exclusivist
religions such as Islam.
I would like to focus in this e-mail on your second reason for
rejecting Islam. You wrote:
“b)The book that he left and his entire message are wrong, illogical
and absurd. It is obvious that the maker of this universe cannot be as
stupid as it appears to be in the Quran.”
You also wrote:
“Do not accept anything I say if I do not back it by evidence. In
other words do not pay attention to the messenger but listen to the
message and verify it before accepting it.”
You have not provided evidence for your reason (b). You have quoted
about 30 verses from the Quran in your prologue on your website, claiming
that they are wrong. I would like to bring to your attention the word
“entire” which has been underlined above. The Quran has more than
6,000 verses and 30 verses make up only about 0.5% of the Quran. Thus,
mathematically, I think you have not provided evidence for your above
claim. If not mathematically, you still have not provided evidence for
your claim that the ENTIRE message is wrong, illogical and absurd. You
surely cannot say that every single message in the Quran is wrong and
harmful to man. I think you cannot deny that you too find at least one or
two verses logical. For example, there are several messages in the
following single verse 2:177.
2:177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces
Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in God and the
Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of
your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the
needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of
slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to
fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in
pain (or suffering) and a dversity, and throughout all periods of panic.
Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.
I hope you agree that you find at least some of the messages revealed
in the above verse logical. In fact, in my opinion, this verse summarises
the important messages which have been repeated several times in the Quran. Thus, I think your usage of the word “entire” in the above
sentence is wrong and misleading. In saying this, I do not agree with you
that the verses you quoted in your website is wrong or there are some
wrong messages in the Quran.
If Quran was the word of God one should not be
able to find a single error in it. I quoted 30 bad verses in on article. Here
is a bigger list. Even one single bad verse disqualifies the Quran to
be the word of God. Any human being says something good and something bad.
This is because we humans are fallible. But God cannot and should not be
wrong otherwise He is no God.
Now the verse 2:177 is actually wrong. It says
that it is righteous to believe in God. Why God would need anyone to
believe in Him? In my opinion righteous is one whose deeds are good not
the one who believed in God. Khomeini believed in God (Allah) and only in
one day he ordered the execution of 3000 Iranian boys and girls. Osama Bin
Laden also believes in Allah and he thinks that his killings, pleases God.
On the other Hand Gandhi was a polytheist and Mother Theresa did not
believe in Allah and his messenger Muhammad. Who was the righteous?
Verse 2:177 also speaks of the Last Day. What
last day? This is an idiocy? This universe has not been created in
function of the humans. This Earth is 4.5 billion years old, while the
homo sapience i.e. our species, is only 40 to 50 thousand years old. In
other words the Earth is a million times older than us humans. Do you
think God will wrap up everything just to reward and punish you and I?
These are fairytales that Muhammad concocted to scare people so they
blindly follow him and not question his crazy claim.
That same verse says it is righteous to believe
in Angles. Have you seen an angel? Belief in angles is the same as to
believe in gnomes, pixies and elves. These things are the creatures of
fantasies of primitive humans. The belief in Angles and Jinns are childish
beliefs.
That verse also says that it is righteous to
believe in the book (of Quran). But the Quran tells people to kill the
polytheists, rape the women captured in war, marry
several women, beat their wives, and other horrendous things. People who believe in that
book and practice it are bad people. They are not righteous people. Go to
any mosque and listen to the sermon of any Imam, all they say is Jews and
Christians are bad and the good Muslims must hate the kafir. It is obvious
that believing in the Quran does not make you righteous. The most criminal
minded and the terrorists among the Muslims are those who believe in the
Quran.
That verse says that he who believes in the
messenger is righteous. That is the crux of Muhammad’s message. This is
all he wanted, worshipping Allah was an excuse. He wanted people to obey
him, make war for him, kill their own brothers and fathers (as in the case
of battle of Badr) for him. With this lie, he imposed his will on the
gullible people and made himself the despot of the entire Arabia. He could
have any young and beautiful woman and do as he pleased. Certainly one
cannot become righteous by believing in a sadist, murderer like Muhammad.
Verse 2:177 continues that it is righteous “to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for
orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the
ransom of slaves”.
Of course he had to say these things to fool
people. But look at what he did. He invaded town after town and took
people who resisted him as slaves. He killed anyone who did not believe in
him and orphaned their children. He looted people, stole their property,
banished them, massacred them and told his followers to wage war and bring
20% of the booty for him. Do you know that the famous sword Zolfaqar
that he owned and later was given to Ali, and his three armors were stolen
property from the Bani Qayniqa, the Jews that he banished from Medina
after confiscating all their belonging? Everything that this man owned was
stolen property. He ruined the wealth of his wife Khadija and by the time
he went to Medina, he was a poor man. But soon he became wealthy through
stealing Caravans and looting innocent people. So how can one really believe the
words of a man who tells you give to the orphans and free the slaves but
he himself renders thousands of free people into slaves and sex slaves and
their children into orphans?
This much for the verse 2:177. One can say
the same things for other seemingly "good" verse of the Quran.
This book actually is evil, because Muhammad was evil.
Next, coming to the verses which you quoted on your website and claim
that they are wrong, I think that by plucking a verse or two from an
entire chapter, especially these verses, and reading them can give an
entirely wrong, or even the opposite message to the reader. For example,
you mentioned the verse, 2:191. If you read at least a few verses before
and after this particular verse (actually one is supposed to read the
whole Quran from beginning till end to get a clear understanding of the
message), it is clear that this message applies to times of war and
oppression and not to any non-muslims walking along the street.
2:190 Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not
transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.
2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out
from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse
than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they
(first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the
reward of those who suppress faith.
2:192 But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
2:193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or
oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease,
Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
I have already explained these verses
here
There are other verses in the Quran that further explain and reinforce
this message. For example:
60:8 God forbids you not, with regard to those who
fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from
dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.
60:9 God only forbids you, with regard to those who
fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support
(others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and
protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do
wrong.
The explanation of the verse 2:190 also explains
these verses because they refer to the same case.
This is the case for the other verses you quoted on you website. Anyone
reading just these verses alone, will obviously get the wrong message.
However, if one reads a few verses before and after them, one would be
able to get the true message and to know which context and situation the
message applies to. Just a suggestion: you shouldn’t quote verses from
here and there. I think you are brainwashing people into thinking that
Islam encourages violence by quoting these verses, which are in fact only
applicable in certain circumstances. In fact, if you have studied the
books of the other monotheistic religions, you would find similar verses.
Actually to understand the Quran you should read
the history of Islam and the Sha’ne nozool (the reason for revelation)
of the verses. It is then that you realize that this book is a textbook of
terror and even those verses that to a novice seem benign are not so in
reality. Read my
explanation of the verse 2:190 and you to see what I mean. Also take a
look at this
article to see why some verses of the Quran seem
to be nice while others are so vile.
First, one has to understand that this world is not completely loving,
caring and sharing, although this is the ideal we all hope to reach. The
Quran has provided guidance for mankind in all aspects of life, which
includes the trials and tribulations, and war is one of them. Thus, there
is also guidance for man in wartimes.
If this world is not a perfect world it does not
mean that God also should teach people to be violent. The message of God
must be the message of love and unity, not of hate and killings. Whether
people want to accept that message or not it is up to them but it is not
acceptable for God to tell people, murder those who do not believe, rape
the women you capture in war, massacre those who surrender to you in wars.
Which wars? These wars were all initiated by Muhammad. So are you telling
me that it is okay for Muslims to attack the kafir land, murder the men,
rape the women and enslave the children because now it is war and this
world is not a loving, caring and sharing world? Remember that Muhammad
waged 67 wars in just 10 years before he was taken to Hell. 67 offensive
wars, murderous and criminal. And he slaughtered and massacred thousands
of people. Is really Islam a message of peace?
This is the most bizarre explanation I heard. We
are talking about the message of God to humanity not about this world. If
this world is not loving, caring and sharing, should the message of God
also tell people to he harsh with those who do not agree with them, murder
them, massacre them, rape them? What kind of god is this Allah you
worship? What kind of guidance is this? If Satan would have revealed the
Quran to Muhammad, would have it been any different?
You also wrote: “The Islamic terrorism is the direct result of the
teachings of Quran.”
What is your evidence? Maybe, what you mean is that the recent acts of
terrorism are due to misguided Muslims. This I agree with. But it is not
due to the teachings of Quran itself. For example, if you were the teacher
of some muslims and you read to them just the verses which you have quoted
on your website, obviously they will be misguided and may even carry out
violent acts. So, in my opinion, your website is misguiding both muslims
and non-muslims.
My evidence is the Quran and verses
such as these
The terrorist are not misguided as far as the
Quran is concerned. They are putting into practice the Quran. If you think
the verses of the Quran that I quote could convert Muslims in to
terrorists, then why not throw this book of terror in the toilet? Why not
burn a book that converts humans into monsters? My website is not
misguiding. It shows clearly what the Quran teaches and who Muhammad was.
It explains why Muslims are violent, why those who are more Islamists are
more terrorists. It also explains why they are backward, ignorant and
miserable.
If I’m not wrong, you believe that the Prophet (peace be upon him),
wrote the Quran himself. Well, the Quran has provided a way for you to
prove that this is true. Refer to the following verses:
11:13-14
Do they say, “He has invented the Book himself?” Say to them,
“Very well, if it is so, then bring ten fabricates Surahs like this!
And you may call to your assistance whosoever you can except Allah, if you
are speak the truth! Now if they (your false gods) do not come
to your help, you should know that this Book has been revealed with the
knowledge of Allah, and that there is no true deity other than Allah.
Do you then surrender to this?”
2:23-24
And if you be in doubt whether the Book We have sent down to Our Servant
(Mohamed (saws)) is from Us or not, then produce, at least, one surah like
this. You may call all your associates to assist you and avail
yourselves of the help of any, other than Allah. If you are genuine in
your doubt, do this! But if you do not do this, and you can never do
this, then fear the Fire which has been prepared for the disbelievers, and
which shall have men and stones for fuel.
The Prophet (peace be upon him) was an illiterate. So if the Prophet
(peace be upon him) really wrote the Quran, then surely the people of
today, or even you, who may be smarter and more well-educated than the
Prophet (peace be upon him), will be able to write a book which is better,
or at least comparable to the Quran. To my knowledge, no one has been able
to do that so far.
Why should anyone in his right mind write a book
full of errors such as the Quran? That book is ridiculous. I just
dissected the best verse you found in it. Why would I want to write a book
so stupid? Read my articles. Can you find that many errors in all my
website, now twice the size of the Quran, that I found in just one
verse of the Quran?
Anyway just to show those surahs of the Quran are
child play, someone actually wrote few surahs in the same style with the
difference that they do not contain errors. Here
they are:
You wrote:
“If a religion does not call upon its followers not to abuse the
human rights of others, I have no intention to fight against it even if
that religion is a lie. Today Islam is the only major religion that fits
the profile of a violent cult.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to imply that Islam is a
religion that calls upon its followers to abuse the human rights of
others. Could you please explain how and provide the evidence from the
Quran? And what is the profile of Islam, which makes it a violent cult?
Could you provide the evidence from the Quran?
I have provided this evidence in all the articles
I wrote. You would not have asked me for proof had you read a few of them.
I consider it human right abuse when Islam says
those who do not believe should be killed. It is a human right abuse to
wage war against civilians, murder the men who were not ready for war, as
it happened in Kheibar, enslave women and children and rape the women.
Quran says it is okay to sleep with women captured in war even if they are
already married. This is a violation of human Rights. Stoning single
mothers is abuse of Human Rights, flogging people and beating them is
abuse of Human Rights. Imposing Jizzyah on Jews and Christians is abuse of
Human Rights. Discriminating against the minorities not to participate in
power sharing in Islamic countries is abuse of Human Rights. Imposing
religion on others by force and bringing them into submission
"Islam" is abuse of Human Rights. I have spoken about this
subject so profusely in my site that I do not want to repeat it. Please
read few of my articles and in all of them you see the incidences of abuse
of Human Rights.
If you want to continue this debate please join
our forum and debate with other friends. Many of them are more knowledgeable
about Islam than me and I have very tight schedule. I would be glad to
debate with anyone who actually reads my articles. If those who want to
debate, read my articles they would not want to debate anymore. Everything
is already explained. These debates are becoming boring to me and to the
readers of this site. I already answered your questions over 10 times to
different people. Please read the articles in this site and participate in
the forum.
I remain sincerely yours
Ali Sina
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