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Edip Yuksel vs. Ali Sina

Round VII -25

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It seems either you have amnesia or you do not really read my answers. I had, in the past, answered the same question of yours. Let me cut and paste my answer here, again. (Well, I confess that I made to minor changes in spelling and grammar. This will leave something for those Christian detectives who have ample time and curiosity for the frivolous; they will find the corrected words and will accuse me in other threats of this forum for changing my past answers to their guru! Seriously, Ali, how could you attract so many followers with such a hobby and so much time?). Yes, here is the answer:

You share a strikingly similar poor knowledge of the Quran with Sunnis and Shiites. You use the same lousy argument. If you were able to read the Quran without smelling the piles of hadith, you would easily notice that 33:21 had preceding and succeeding verses and the example of prophet was his bravery in defending Muslims against the aggressor army of Meccan oligarchy. If your knowledge of the Quran were a little bit beyond the surface, you would also notice that verse 60:4 uses exactly the same description, "good example", for Abraham and his supporters. Using your logic Muslims should have had the hadith of Abraham and his supporters too! Perhaps, you will find the story of another hungry holy goat eating those hadith collections to be "not illogical."

I believe we already discussed this point. Yes people had heard many stories about Abraham and when Muhammad says he was a good example, they could relate to it. Abraham was famous through Old and New Testaments, Jewish sources, Christian sources etc. Many of these sources found their way in the Quran, e.g. the story of Abraham's dad being an idol maker and of Abraham smashing the idols come from preexisting Jewish sources. But, where do we find Muhammad's example set forth in the way that Abraham's example had been committed to writing? The Quran vaguely mentions him. It only says he is a good example to follow but no details. Why is he a good example? 

As I said before, if someone says be like Job, we all know he means be patient in adversities. But if I tell you be like Jose, you have no clue what I am talking about because you don’t know what Jose did. We surly cannot follow the example of Muhammad as instructed by verse 33:21 without knowing anything about him.  

Now let us think about it. Suppose you are a detective investigating a crime. You approach someone who is uncooperative, evasive and refuses to answer certain questions. Doesn’t this immediately raise the red flag that he is hiding something?  The very fact that the submitters insist that no one should bring up any of the incriminatory tales of their prophet and do all mental gymnastics to avoid them, is proof enough that there is something they are hiding.

This Book (the Quran) was written by somebody. Who was that body? It claims to be a book of salvation and morality and demands us to follow the example of its author. It is very much different from a book written on science. I can study a book of mathematics, geometry, chemistry or computer and do not need to know anything about its author. The difference is that I am not submitting my intelligence and will to someone else. I am not required to believe anything. Everything is explained to me and I can verify them on my own.  But in the case of a religion such as Islam you are asked to submit your intelligence and believe in one who claims to be the mouthpiece of God. It is important to verify whether he is a liar or a truthful person. If I claim to be a prophet, would you believe? Why not? What proof should I give you to convince you that I am a prophet? What if I am a psychopath, promising you the moon and taking you to hell? It would be foolish to follow me without verifying my claim and my character. 

You say the character of Muhammad is absolutely irrelevant and you are not even willing to discuss it. This very attitude is indication that you are hiding something. Why the Christians don’t mind to talk about their prophet? They have obviously nothing to hide. Of course I believe Jesus is a mythological personage. Nonetheless, he is a saintly figure. So why are you so embarrassed to talk about Muhammad? You say let us examine his claim only. That is fine. Let us do that. Can you tell us what makes you believe that he was a prophet of God and not a messenger of Satan, for example?  

Let me add this too: according to the Quran, Muhammad could never have claimed to be the best of the creation, since as a Muslim, he was ordered not to distinguish among God's messengers (2:285), and be humble (32:11-20). This is a lie fabricated by Muhammadans in their polytheistic competition to top the idols of Christians. Ignorant Hislamic scholars even fabricated many miracles, from splitting the moon to jumbo sexual powers for Muhammad in their zeal to turn him to a holy superman.

 

Well as I quoted above, he actually did claim to be exalted above other prophets in degrees (2:253); and a “Mercy to the worlds” (21:107). These contradictions can be easily explained when you see him as a pathological narcissist.  

The narcissist flaunts his virtues such as hi humility or his generosity as bait. He impresses others with his selflessness and virtues and thus lures them into his lair, entraps them, and manipulates and brainwashes them into subservient compliance and obsequious collaboration.  

Furthermore you are forgetting that Muhammad of Mecca and Muhammad of Medina were two different persons. In Mecca Muhammad portrayed himself as just a simple prophet, only a warner.  But when he came to power and actually saw so many people are under his command, his ego also swelled. A lot of discrepancies in the Quran can be explained by simply knowing the period that they were written.  

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