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yeezevee



Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 2640

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dear friends, It took me some time to get to listen to Mr. Nadir and Dennis.. who often responds at FFI.. so I am pasting mp3 files..and one should be able to click and listen to him

http://www.islamiccenterofpeoria.org/debates/Ahmed_Giron_Part1.mp3
http://www.islamiccenterofpeoria.org/debates/Ahmed_Giron_Part2.mp3

Nadir.. you seem to copy from Zakir Naik... and Naik copies from some where else..the only thing you did is, you have better English pronunciation than that of Niak...

off course Q'uran is a book of emotions in the name of God.. It plays to the Human emotions.. and your explanation and logic that part of the book is copied is illogical..In the sense if some one discovers the same scientific fact before Q'uran, that itself proves, the other guys was smarter Mr. Mohammad that to much before Mohammad(off course, I really doubt that Mohammad really put together all that book, as this book was put together way after the death of Mr. Mohammad...)

As you use the word Logic so many times in your talk.. Let me use a very simple logic, This Man Mohammad.. started his Q'uranic quest after the death of his first wife Khadija...he lived for 13 years .. the guy married 13 women in 13 years, How the hell had time to write anything? he never had time to write anything.. And why would a God/Allaha need to choose such a guy as the messenger of God/Allaha.. that sounds more absurd than you think that the tits and bits of Q'uran is copied from other sources of that time.... You are running in Circles with Plagiarized Q'uran..

with regards
yeezevee
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Ali Sina



Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 2244

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Quote:
I accuse Muhammad of being unfit and unworthy to be a messenger of God.


who cares... yawn....




Quote:
I’ll show that the Quran is not from God but a hodgepodge of nonsense and you can show that it is a miracle.


no, no... Ali, this is not what my challenge to you , you can try
to show your alleged claim of hodgepodge nonsense some other time...


let us commit to specifics here, here is what we are going to debate, as I posted in my challenge:


The topic will be Quran and Modern Science, by the grace of God, In the Ahmed - Giron debate, the Quran has been proved to be authored by a source greater than man and rendered a true living miracle for all times. You can download the debate from my website:

http://www.ExamineTheTruth.com

will give Ali Sina an opportunity to contest the evidence if he disagrees with the conclusion stated above. So, if Ali accepts, then he can download the debate, listen to it, and we will start our debate from their....

So my Challege to you is to contest the evidence
we will not entertain red herrings... we can debate those other issues later... like preservation, inerrancy... etc.

What we debate about will be directly related to the topic of the Ahmed-Giron Debate.


But if you run Ali, then it will not be the first time ,many have done so,the Scientific and Archaeological evidences of the Quran is IRREFUTABLE .. .. I think you know that Ali... that probably explains your reluctancy....



Quote:
However, since it seems that science and Quran is the lesson you have learned best and this is the only thing you want to talk about


What the...??? I never stated that this is "the only thing I want to talk about" this is a LIE. Rather, this is what I stated:

Quote:
"I have challenged you first, soo we start with Quran and Science first, you can later challenge me to what ever topic you want."



AND

Quote:
"Therefore, we debate the OBJECTIVE evidences first... then we debate the SUBJECTIVE evidences later..."



You have already blatanly made a false statement
against me! So much for your chantings:

"I challenge the apologists of Islam to prove me wrong or.... "

"I challenge the apologists of Islam to prove me wrong or.... "

"I challenge the apologists of Islam to prove me wrong or.... "



The debate has not even begun yet and you have already been proven wrong! This is equivalent to a "first round knock down.. sending Sina crashing to the canvas..." lol Surprised


So, please dont lie Ali Sina, this is not going to help you it will
only make things worse... you dont want to end up like Dr. Robert Morey do you?

http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm


Let me know if you accept my challenge.. I have wasted enough time here....

thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com




Mr. Nadir Ahmad,

I followed your debate with Denis Giron as you requested and here are my observations:

You have chosen a few verses from the Quran and reinterpreted them to correlate with the modern science and then ask how Muhammad in the 7th century could have known all that. This is called petitio principii. Your premises are as false as your conclusion.

Denis already responded to you adequately. His responses satisfy any thinking man. I will add my two cents to what he said for the benefit of the readers.


1-
The first “miracle” you stated was Muhammad’s alleged knowledge of the bees and the fact that they are female.

The fact that bees are female was already known to people at least 1000 years before Muhammad. The oldest book that describes bees is attributed to Aristotle 350 BC.

Aristotle observed that the brood of drones appear even when there is no ruler bee in the hive. This is an accurate observation. As we know today, unfertilized female workers can lay eggs in the absence of a queen, but the eggs develop into drones. Aristotle gave a fairly accurate description of the bees with only few mistakes like confusing the gender of the Queen and calling it the King.

What Muhammad said about bees? Let us see:

016.068
And thy Lord taught the Bee to build its cells in hills, on trees, and in (men's) habitations;

That is all the information there is in the Quran about the bees. There is nothing ground breaking in what we see in this verse. This is something that not only people, but also the bears and the birds know. So Muhammad states something obvious known to everyone including animals. What is the miracle in this verse? The “miracle” as Mr. Ahmad and other Muslims claim is that Muhammad refers to bees in female gender.

The word bee in Arabic is nahla. This word was not invented by Muhammad. This is an Arabic word used by everyone who speaks Arabic. The word is feminine. In Arabic some words are feminine some are masculine. For example Rahmat (mercy) is a feminine word. The fact that Muhammad uses an Arabic word that happens to be feminine is no indication that he was the first who discovered bees are female. In fact not all bees are female. As I said the gender of the worker bees was already known to everyone at least for 1000 years before Muhammad. All Arabs used the same word even before Muhammad. Why Muhammad should becalled a miracle maker and they who taught Muhammad the word should be called "ignorant", as Muhammad desparagingly refered to all those who lived before him?



2-
The second “miracle” stated by Mr. Ahmad is the verse 89.7
It reads:

Of the (city of) Iram, with lofty pillars,

What is so miraculous about this? Mr. Ahmed says it is the name Iram. Why?… Because, as he says Iram was a city of Arabia that was destroyed in an earthquake and no one knew about it except Muhammad and it was only in the second half of the 20th century that it was discovered by the archeologists. Mr. Ahmed wonders how Muhammad knew this when no other text mentions the name Iram.

Mr. Ahmed is living is self-delusion. How come a city was destroyed and no one knew about it? Isn’t this an absurdity? The destruction of a city is a big event. It is obvious that people will talk about it and tell its tales to their descendants. Pompeii, Sodom and Gomorrah had similar fates. Although the actual cities were lost, they remained in our folklore. Who said no books prior to Muhammad mentioned Iram? It makes no sense that Arabs forget completely about a city destroyed thus. Muhammad and his followers destroyed all the books that belonged to the pre Islamic era of “jahiliyyah”. If no other book prior to Muhammad mentions this city it is because Muhammad burned those books. The tales of Iram with its lofty pillars must have been in the lore of the people of Arabia and the way Muhammad casually mentions it with no further explanation is clear that his audience already knew what he is taking about.

 

Edited July 23 2007

The content of this box was provided by Zorasta_Russ

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2610

First of all Qur'an never said that Iram was a city. Here is the verse is Arabic.
89:07
إِرَمَ ذَاتِ الْعِمَادِ
إِرَمَ = Iram
ذَاتِ = dhaat = possessors
الْعِمَادِ = el Imad-e = of the pillars


Iram was mentioned in the Bible before the Qur’an.

إِرَمَ (= Iram ) transliterated into Hebrew characters appears as ארם in the Hebrew Old Testament, and it is pronounced as Aram.


According to the Old Testament Aram was the son of Shem and the grandson of Noah. Aram was supposedly the ancestor of the Arameans or the Syrians. The language that the Syrians spoke was Aramaic and Aram was also the name of the Syrian Nation. Therefore The Qur’an did not mention a city that was forgotten by men during Mohammed’s time and then discovered 1400 years later.

Why do Muslims who take a scientific approach in interpreting the Qur’an and discover imagined miracles ignore the Tafsir of early Islamic Scholars?

For example Ibn Katheer wrote:

They were the descendants of `Ad bin Iram bin `Aws bin Sam bin Nuh. This was said by Ibn Ishaq.


http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=89&tid=58165

Notice Ibn Ishaq’s genealogy differs from that of Genesis in the Old Testament in only one detail by adding the name ‘Aws. In the O T Noah(Arabic Nuh) was father of Shem( Arabic Sam) father of Aram. And Aram was Iram according to Ibn Katheer and Ibn Ishaq.

Mr Nadir Ahmed’s miracle is not a miracle at all. If he doesn’t remove his Iram debate from his website then his miracle should be declared a hoax.

Regards

Zorasta Russ

 



3-
The third “miracle” presented by Mr. Ahmed is the verse

25.53
It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Muslims say this is a miracle because Muhammad, if not divinely inspired, could not have known that two bodies of water do not mix.

Again, this premise is wrong. First of all anyone going to the sea watching sweet waters carrying sediments flowing into the salty waters of the ocean can see they do not mix immediately. In fact this is quite a scene and people who observed it must have narrated to others in the land with amazement. This phenomenon was hence readily observable to everyone as it is today. Sailors must have noticed more buoyancy of their boats in the salty waters of the sea than when they were navigating in rivers and lakes of sweet water. Waters that have different salinity, density and temperature do not mix readily, however they do eventually. But Muhammad states that there is a barrier between them and a partition that is forbidden to be passed. This is of course not true. Muhammad must have heard about this phenomenon but his knowledge was not complete and he assumed that the waters never mix. That is why he is talking of barriers between the seas. There is no such barrier at all and all waters do mix.

This verse points to Muhammad’s ignorance and it is no miracle at all.


4-
The next “miracle” that has dumbfounded our friend is the verse 24:40 :

Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!

Mr. Ahmed wonders how in the world Muhammad could have known that the dept of the sea is dark. I wished our opponent had a little bit more commonsense. Isn’t this obvious to anyone who has taken a dive into the water to know that the deeper you go the darker it becomes? Mr. Ahmed is under the impression that all the humanity is bozo and cannot understand these simple facts that can be readily experienced by everyone. You surprise me Mr. Ahmed. Didn’t you really know that under the water there is less light? Did you have to read the Quran to learn this simple fact that is known to sun and dry even those who have no knowledge of the modern science?

I am always amazed to see the desperation of the Muslims to find miracles in the most banal statements of the Quran.

Mr. Ahmed, please understand that this verse is not trying to explain to the readers how the deep oceans look but it is exemplifying the state of the unbeliever with something that is already known to everyone. This shows that people who read this verse already knew that the dept of ocean is dark and with this example Muhammad tried to make them visualize the state of the unbeliever. If they did not know that the dept of the deeper waters are dark then the verse would not express what it intends to express. If I tell you my shirt is as green as my hat, when you have never seen my hat, you would not understand how green is my shirt and I would not be speaking clear to you. Remember, clarity is one of the claims of the Quran. But if I say my shirt is green like pine tree, you’ll soon know what kind of green I am talking about.

Furthermore Muhammad is not talking about “deep oceans”. In deep oceans you do not need to “stretch your hand” as Muhammad says, in order not to see it. You cannot see your hand without stretching it.


5-
The fifth miracle as stated by Mr. Ahmed is the verse 30:2 and 30:3

30.2
The Roman Empire has been defeated-
30.3
YUSUFALI: In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
PICKTHAL: In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious
SHAKIR: In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome,


Mr. Ahmed claims that the word near (Adna) can also be translated as lower and hence the above could be read: The Roman Empire was defeated in the lowest land… Then Mr. Ahmad claims that since the Black Sea is it the lowest point on earth (1300 ft below sea level) then Muhammad has said something that no one could have known.

This is of course wishful thinking of a deluded believer and the absurdity of that is self-evident. The Romans were not defeated in the Red Sea but in Jerusalem and Jerusalem is above sea level. If we had to take Mr. Ahmed for his word and disregard the obvious meaning of the word, this verse would have become yet another blunder of Muhammad. However all the interpreters of the Quran have translated the verse correctly. If Muhammad really wanted to impress his readers he could have easily said that the Red Sea is the lowest land on Earth. Note that the verse is mentioning land and not sea. Muhammad is taking about the Jerusalem and not about the Red Sea.


6-
The sixth miracle according to Mr. Ahmed is the verse:

57.025
We sent aforetime our messengers with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His messengers: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).

Mr. Ahmed says that according to the Modern science, iron is the only element that does not belong to the Earth but is sent from heaven to Earth and hence the above verse is a miracle.

The truth is that four billion years ago, when our planet was still a scorching ball of fire, a giant asteroid mostly made of metal struck the Earth scattering a lot of it to the sky. The asteroid however penetrated the core of the Earth. That is why the deeper we go the more metal we find. However iron was not the only metal found that came with that asteroid. It contained many other metals including gold.

The verse actually should not be taken literally. In this verse Muhammad is saying that we sent you everything that you need including iron with which has mighty power i.e. is strong and can benefit you as well. He did not mean that the iron, among all the elements, is the only element that has descended from the heaven. In Muhammad's language eveything is "sent' to man by God and that is the meaning of this word andalna here. He did not mean that God sent the iron from they sky but since the giver of the iron is God so the verb nadala is used. Somewhere else Muhammad says that He sent down cattle (39.6) Do we have to take this literally?


Mr. Ahmed in the defense of his theory states that the energy required to create one atom of iron equals several times the energy stored in the sun. This is obviously absurd. This gentleman makes up in bravado what he lacks in knowledge.


7-
The last “miracle” of the Quran mentioned by Mr. Ahmed is when Muhammad says: "Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion" (Qur'an 21:33; 36:40). Then he wonders: “How did the author of the Qur'an know of this?”

Anyone looking at the sky can see that the Sun and the Moon follow a fixed orbit. This was known to our ancestors since the dawn of time. However we see that the Sun and the Moon revolve around the Earth and this is the orbit that the Quran is talking about. What Quran says about the orbits of the Sun and the Moon is the observable and perceived orbits of these celestial objects caused by the rotation of the Earth. The Quran is talking about neither the actual orbit of the sun around the central star of the Milky Way that takes 226 million years nor the orbit of the moon around the Earth that takes 29 days. Muhammad is talking about the “perceived” orbit of these objects that takes 24 hours. Any ignorant man, even the animals, could observe what Muhammad observed. Any ignorant man could have said what Muhammad said. Muhammad was not aware of the actual orbit of the Moon that became known to humanity through the findings of Copernicus and Galileo let alone the orbit of the Sun that was discovered in the 20th century.

This is clear from the verse 2:189.

"They ask you about the new moon. Say: They indicate the periods for (various activities of) mankind, and for the pilgrimage."

Muhammad is asked about the moon and why it changes shape. This was a perfect opportunity for him to say it is because of the rotation of the moon around the Earth and because the light of the moon is a reflection of the light of the sun. But he did not know the right answer. He instead said that the Moon is a giant clock/calendar in the sky created for the believers to know what time of the month it is and when they should perform their pilgrimage.

Muhammad thought that the Sun and the Moon have similar orbits chasing each other in the sky while it is not allowed for the Sun to catch the Moon.

036:040
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.



We are dealing with a man with a very primitive mind. In the verse 10:5 Muhammad says that the Moon has its own light and then reiterates that it is a calendar in the sky, created for us humans to measure the time.

10:5
PICKTHAL: He it is Who appointed the sun a splendour and the moon a light, and measured for her stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for people who have knowledge.

Of course both these statements are false. The Moon has no light of its own nor it has anything to do with us humans. The moon has been there probably as long as the Earth has been around and that is 4.5 billion years while we humans appeared on this planet only 100,000 ago and will most likely disappear much sooner than the moon. It is ridiculous to assume that the celestial objects have been created for us humans. We are merely one species among the millions inhabiting this planet. Nothing is created for us. These ideas are childish and do not belong to this day and age of enlightenment.

There is no doubt that Muhammad used to think that Moon gives light.

25.61
Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light;

71.16
And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?

Of course the Moon is not a lamp and it does not give light. These verses are enough to prove that the Quran is not revealed by any knowledgeable god. Muhammad simply stated what was obvious to his eyes. His knowledge of the astronomy was no more than any ignorant man of his time.

This is also clear when he says that the Sun “rises” and “sets” in murky waters. 18.86

Mr. Ahmed, in his debate with Denis Giron makes an astounding statement. He says that the critics could say that the orbits of the Sun and the Moon mentioned in the Quran may indicate the rotation of these objects around the Earth. But he says this is not so because Muhammad did not say such thing.

This reminds me of a joke we used to tell each other when in primary school. “We Iranians used to have wireless technology in our ancient civilization. Why? Because the archeologists have not been able to find any wire in the old ruins.”

Of course we were kids and this was a joke. However it seems that the brain of some grownup Muslims is even less evolved than that of the children. So according to our esteemed opponent, if Muhammad did not say that the orbit he was talking about is the rotation of the Sun around the Earth, he must have meant the rotation of the Sun around the black hole in the Milky Way. It does not even occur to him to ask, if that was the case why he did not say that. Why he did not clarify that the moon rotates around the Earth and the Earth rotates around the center of the Milky Way? The Milky Way is very visible in the deserts of Arabia. Muhammad stated what he saw. That is virtually the same thing my cat can see. That is the Sun and the Moon have orbits and they rotate the Earth.

These are the “miracles of science” that Mr. Ahmad wanted me to respond to. Actually Denis already responded to all these claims. However Denis is very cautious and does not call the Quran to be a hodgepodge of gibberish. He tries to be politically correct. He is even afraid to call a spade a spade and say all these verses are rubbish. He goes only as far to say that the “knowledge” contained in these verses were already known to humans prior to Muhammad. What knowledge? Most of the Quran is garbage.

The soft attitude of Denis has emboldened Ahmed who claims the possibility of Muhammad in being right in each and every one of these verses is 1/500,000. Then he multiplies all these fractions and comes with an astronomically minute number and states that the chance of Muhammad just guessing the correct answer each and every time is less than one over a number with 26 zeros in front of it.

Dear. Mr. Ahmed. Please do not be fooled by Denis’s niceness. He is just trying to be politically correct. The truth is that your Quran is the stupidest book ever written. There are not one or two but hundreds of errors in that book. It is a shame that a man like you is so blinded with faith that cannot see the obvious errors of this book. But stick around. Don’t go anyway. We will go over this book together and will find out more inanities of it together.

If you have finished with your “miracles”, this time allow me to dig into that cesspool called Quran and pull out verses that would embarrass you or hopefully open your eyes.

You also seem to not pay much attention to what others say. You have learned only one subject and you think this is such a big hit that you want to play it in every occasion. Sadly you are not intelligent enough to see when you are defeated. Dr. Morey, obviously saw you are not a scholar and did not think you are worth his time. You go around claiming you have defeated him? How you have defeated him when he did not even dignify you with a response? The reason he gave is that your way of debating is insulting your opponent. That is ad hominem and highly unscholarly. I do not blame him for not giving you much credence. You claim that you defeated Denis Giron. I listened to your debate with him and to me it is clear that you are the one who is defeated.

Judging by your performance and especially by your boasting and bravado, it is clear that you are not a scholar but a little man in search of fame. You try to debate with some recognized names on the net and even though they do not respond to you add them to your portfolio to make yourself look bigger that who you really are. I knew your games. At first, like Dr. Morey, I thought you are not really worth my time. But seeing your boastfulness and bluster, I thought you would benefit if I put you in your place and amuse the Internet folk at your expense. Perhaps this will teach you some humility and help you to become a better debater.

I will continue debating with you, provided you behave like a scholar. Fortunately I heard your voice and you sound like a grown up man. Otherwise judging by your bluster and arrogance I would have suspected you are just a teenager. If you want to debate with me, you are required to behave like a scholar. I hope that is clear.

Now back to our discussion. You did not comment on my statement that even if the Quran is proven to be a miracle (which of course as we are seeing it is not) Muhammad cannot be hailed as a prophet. The ethics and morality of Muhammad are crucial to determine his truthfulness. A liar cannot be a prophet. Is that clear? Do you agree with this? Do you agree that if the Quran is proven to be a miracle as you say and Muhammad is proven to be a criminal, there is a good chance that the Quran was revealed to Muhammad by Satan? I need your statement on this subject before we can continue with our study of the Quran.

Furthermore, please respond to other members. They are all better scholars than you. So debating with them will certainly add to your profile and make you look important.


Kind regards


P.S. We generally treat our guests and oponents with respect. However your chest beating and swelling claiming to have won when we did not even start to debate was a factor for me to deal with you in this way and bruise your nose so hopefully you become more respectful in your future correspondance.

If anything you failed to answer my claim that even if the Quran is proven to be a miracle still Muhammad cannot be called a prophet. This would only prove that he was inspired by Satan. Your silence in this regard tells me you have no response for that and hence you are the defeated one in this first round.[img][/img][img][/img]
_________________
Doubt everything, find your own light!


Last edited by Ali Sina on Sun Jan 04, 2004 9:17 pm; edited 7 times in total

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mughal200



Joined: 16 Feb 2002
Posts: 522
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brother nadir,

What brother ali is pointing out is misinterpretation of the quran by yourself or if you like by the ancient scholars of the quran. The problem with that is that if we take the meaning of the verses as you propose them then their meaning taken by ancient interpreters of the quran become absurd and if we take old meanings into account then the new meanings of the verses become absurd, so either way the quran is doomed if you know what I mean.

Had muhammad told people at the time things that did not make sense to them they would be right in rejecting his message just like us who are told things that make no sense to us in our time. So my dear brother you are trapping yourself very badly.


1) The quran states that in honey there is healing for mankind 16/69. It fails to specify what diseases the honey is capable of curing, which implies it is good for anything and everything. However, it is bad for people with diabetes for example as well as people with weight problem.


2) If muhammad had told people about cities that they were not aware of, they would have laughed at him for making up things that could not be verified. It would have actually disproved muhammad's prophetic claim.

3) Brother nadir should pay special attention to 35/12, for it clearly tells us what the quran means by two waters ie the sea water and the rain water that we have in rivers.

By the way imaam ghazaali was known as bahr al-aloom= sea of knowledge ie a man who had knowledge in abundance.

regards and
_________________
All the best, from Mughal at

http://www.religionandsecularism3.gq.nu/favorite_links.html


Last edited by mughal200 on Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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adnan



Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2988
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for yezvee for pointing out quotations from Nadir the Muslim
Nadir Ahmed wrote:
But rather, what I did do, was insult Sam personally. I made fun of Sam’s morbid obesity by calling him Sam "Shamu" Shamoun, and ridiculed the fact that he is a bald, middle aged, total loser with no girlfriend, wife, or significant other and lives with his mother. Not to mention, his filthy shabby appearance, as I mentioned one time

very good Nadir! Excellent! Atleast thanks for putting that on your website.
yes Nadir! Insulting your debater always helps! Lets see what kind of insults you give to Ali Sina and how that helps win the debate.. you're just full of blind arrogance, empty air and pomp, nothing else.
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meghnad6



Joined: 27 Oct 2003
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:14 pm    Post subject: nadir Ahmed Reply with quote

\Nadir Ahmed:

If Islam is not the truth and Quran is not scientific, then how come all Muslims all over the world have their phalluses chopped off according to instructions of Quran? Muslimas have their clitorises cut out according to Quran? Bangladeshi Muslims have theirs chopped off 1 cm while Pakistanis and Iranians chop off 2 cm. While Bedouins and Egyptians have a full inch gone. Nadir tell all these truths to the readers of the forum. You will make a strong case.
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yeezevee



Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 2640

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
meghnad6: Nadir Ahmed:

If Islam is not the truth and Quran is not scientific, then how come all Muslims all over the world have their phalluses chopped off according to instructions of Quran? Muslimas have their clitorises cut out according to Quran? Bangladeshi Muslims have theirs chopped off 1 cm while Pakistanis and Iranians chop off 2 cm. While Bedouins and Egyptians have a full inch gone. Nadir tell all these truths to the readers of the forum. You will make a strong case.


greetings dear meghnad6.., it really doesn't matter who cuts what and what is chopped off as long as they are not minors and 18 years or older. , But dear meghnad6, it will be more useful specially in this thread, To listen to Mr. Nadir carefully.. take each one of those 8 verses that he is talking has a fundamental scientific principles involved in coding them... And explaining him/reader.. how wrong he is in his abilities in analyzing the Q'uranic Suras....

As I hear Mr. Nadir arguments, I really pity people like Mr. Nadir.. who clearly has a doubt about Q'uran being the work of Allaha/God..what ever, he tries to skip and twist/turn around his own doubts on the Quranic Plagiarism with a word..."Any ways" ...

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8399&sid=86b9d5cd644a65b3ce0792149cf44e22

yet he tries, thinks himself and acts in front of 69 Muslims(?) that he won the debate over Denis.. In reality Denis was extremely nice to him and Q'uran..Now, Nadir will have ample of time at FFI to argue leisurely, think carefully before he puts down his response to those Verses. Let us take each one of those verses, carefully analyze and explain the reader the reasons How that Quranic Sura is originated by Allaha, but Not from A man with common sense.. That "MAN"(who ever wrote, not mohammad) could be little more intelligent than others of that time..But Allaha?....By that You are asking me to doubt Allaha... Whatever Allah may be dear Nadir..

I Hope you will edit what you wrote about Sam at your website dear Nadir..It doesn't matter whether you own or not, but what you wrote about SAM is NOT an insult to Sam but That is detrimental to you and your own site..Again dear Mr. Nadir, please Edit the following words
Quote:

"But rather, what I did do, was insult Sam personally. I made fun of Sam’s morbid obesity by calling him Sam "Shamu" Shamoun, and ridiculed the fact that he is a bald, middle aged, total loser with no girlfriend, wife, or significant other and lives with his mother. Not to mention, his filthy shabby appearance, as I mentioned one time""...

at your website http://www.examinethetruth.com/apology_rejected.htm

with regards
yeezevee


Last edited by yeezevee on Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mullah Mo



Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 670
Location: In HELL with Mohammed the Pedophile Prophet

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Ali,

This is the one guy that is left, "Dr. Nader Pourhassan". Everyone on this forum can help you process this 70+ pages. I'd say we go after this guy. He's got some NERVES to go on TV with this. Let's get him.

Also, I have a few good ideas about sending the message out. We can all help you and your team "proof read" all of your articles. I will make a different thread where we can go and "find typos and errors and present them to FFI" so that you can fix them.



Peace.
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Piggy



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 1077

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mullah Mo wrote:
Mr. Ali,

This is the one guy that is left, "Dr. Nader Pourhassan". Everyone on this forum can help you process this 70+ pages. I'd say we go after this guy. He's got some NERVES to go on TV with this. Let's get him.

Also, I have a few good ideas about sending the message out. We can all help you and your team "proof read" all of your articles. I will make a different thread where we can go and "find typos and errors and present them to FFI" so that you can fix them.
Peace.


Hi Mullah Mo,

What happened with this guy, Nader Pourhassan?

Whose turn is it to reply?

Has this debate been discontinued?

The main FFI site only shows Prologue and Part One, in which it appears that Ali was the last to post.

What TV?

Regards.
Piggy.
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Let the Children Play - Bring Joy to the World.
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agentazure



Joined: 25 Mar 2002
Posts: 796
Location: Mobile, AL

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Piggy wrote:
Mullah Mo wrote:
Mr. Ali,

This is the one guy that is left, "Dr. Nader Pourhassan". Everyone on this forum can help you process this 70+ pages. I'd say we go after this guy. He's got some NERVES to go on TV with this. Let's get him.

Also, I have a few good ideas about sending the message out. We can all help you and your team "proof read" all of your articles. I will make a different thread where we can go and "find typos and errors and present them to FFI" so that you can fix them.
Peace.


Hi Mullah Mo,

What happened with this guy, Nader Pourhassan?

Whose turn is it to reply?

Has this debate been discontinued?

The main FFI site only shows Prologue and Part One, in which it appears that Ali was the last to post.

What TV?

Regards.
Piggy.


Mr. Pourhassan said in the beginning of the debate that if he is proven wrong he would publically say he was proven wrong and stop promoting his book. It takes a very strong man to admit he's wrong and on top of that stop promoting a book he invested so much time and very possibly his future into. I stopped following the debate after that because I couldn't stand to find out if he would make good on his word and stop promoting his book.
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Piggy



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 1077

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I take it Pourhassen has dropped out or just taking a long time to reply?

Wonder if he will do a book like "Corruption of the Christian-Mind" etc. but then again Mohammed was first with this tactic; he could get rich on a whole series of books adding more layers of sugar-coating on religions.

Then we might also see "Corruption of the Childrens' Minds" which would probably have something valid to it, especially regarding Islam.

It seems Pourhassen has effectively taken to writing his own pro-Mohammed hadith whilst denying the originals.
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Let the Children Play - Bring Joy to the World.
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Ali Sina



Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 2244

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually it is my turn to respond to Pourhassan,

I sort of did not have the energy to do it first because his 76 pages of rebutal are kinda boring and second becaues I found Shahbaz more interesting debater. However since Shahbaz seems to have stopped, I'll go and respond to Pourhassan. I guess it would be about 150 pages. I'll try to shorten it.
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PeaceOnEarth



Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can someone post a link to the Pourhassan debate?
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Last edited by PeaceOnEarth on Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nadir_ahmed



Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ali Sina,

well, I dont think I insulted you.. even though, here on on this post people have been making disparaging remarks to me.. but I ignore them...


thank you for your response.. looks good... but I would like to ask if we can move this debate to the debate folder, and perhaps have a nice little advertisement on your front page, I will do the same at my end, Im sure there are alot of people who would like to tune in to this...

I will then post my response to you ...

thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com
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jolnar



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ali Sina wrote:
71.16
And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?

Of course the Moon is not a lamp and it does not give light. These verses are enough to prove that the Quran is not revealed by any knowledgeable god

The Bible differentiates the sun and the moon by size only: "God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars" [Genesis 1:16].
but Quran made the difference by their light when it used different words to describe their light and when we go back to the arabic dictionary we shall understand the knowledge of using those words .
The Qur'an tells us that: the sun is a shining glory while the moon is a light [10:5]; the sun is a lamp and the moon is a light [25:61,71:16]; the sun is a blazing lamp [78:13] .

Ali Sina wrote:
I will continue debating with you, provided you behave like a scholar. Fortunately I heard your voice and you sound like a grown up man. Otherwise judging by your bluster and arrogance I would have suspected you are just a teenager. If you want to debate with me, you are required to behave like a scholar. I hope that is clear.

Well Ali ,sorry for saying this but you are whom need to behave like a scholar .I am not going to tell you how to speak because you know how to do and it is not my business but when ever you talked about the good behavior then you need to practise it before giving orders about it .

The other important thing that all your responds are not logical , what do you mean by saying that whenever quran had some facts which are can't come from the knowledge of a man whom lived in the desert of peninsula then quran is from Satan or jinns !!! Use your brain plz .

[15:14]And even if We opened to them a gate from the heaven and they were to continue ascending thereto,[15:15]They would surely say: "Our eyes have been (as if) dazzled. Nay, we are a people bewitched." (Al-Hijr)
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Piggy



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 1077

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nadir_ahmed wrote:
Ali Sina,

well, I dont think I insulted you.. even though, here on on this post people have been making disparaging remarks to me.. but I ignore them...


thank you for your response.. looks good... but I would like to ask if we can move this debate to the debate folder, and perhaps have a nice little advertisement on your front page, I will do the same at my end, Im sure there are alot of people who would like to tune in to this...

I will then post my response to you ...

thanks,
Nadir Ahmed


This guy/girl is just looking for publicity and also attract traffic to his site, attempting to leech off FFI's successful popularity!
-----------------------------------------------------
Nadir, you come here to debate, get on with it!

The forum and thread are established here at FFI, nothing more is necessary for the debate to proceed without further sleezy procrastination.

"first-round knock-out".......what a laugh. Laughing

 

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