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 Jan, 25, 2003

 

Assalam  

I hope you will be reading this e-mail and I hope that this will in some way be alternative to the ones you usually receive. Mostly complaints of angry Muslims feeling insulted by the contents of your site. Occasionally  attempts of apologists of Islam trying to destroy your view of Islam and to find fallacies in your understanding of Islam. Maybe you have had to revise some of your standpoints after being presented by acceptable arguments from your opponents, certainly nobody is perfect but in an ongoing process of evolution in his abilities. You insist that you hold the truth in your hands, you insist to know the reality about Islam, how it really is, how it absolutely is! You are declaring Islam to be the untruth and this with a "I know the absolute truth"-attitude.  

Please do not get me wrong, I do not want to accuse you of something, but if I haven't perceived your attitude correctly then please accept my sincere apologies. What I want to say is that no matter how knowledgeable and intelligent a person is he will always only have a relative understanding of the

Truth, meaning that it may some time be proven contradictory. This is the nature of man. Unless you are divinely guided by a supreme being or unless you're this being itself you won't be able to present the absolute Truth to others, so that it may become absolutely clear and irrefutable to them.  

You write on your page where you challenge all Muslims: "For more than a year our challenge to the Muslims and the Muslim apologists has not been met. Many Muslims have come forth hiding their real identity behind a penname and disputed our claims. As it is clear from the following list, their arguments have all been refuted. Getting tired of waiting for the big fish, we decided to invite the more famous apologists of Islam and challenge them to defend their views."  

If you are truly tired of finding someone who has the competence and the

ability of defending his perspective of Islam, then I would like to recommend you an intellectual scholar, with whom you would love to debate. His name is "Moiz Amjad" and here are his details (presented on his own website www.understanding-islam.com):

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/moizamjad.asp  

I would do everything to at least convince you that he is worth your time, he is an expert in his field, qualified enough to even challenge all your fundamental conceptions of Islam. I can imagine how many people are emailing you and requesting you to go to this and that site, but I honestly promise you that you won't regret it if you read his answers on different questions which have already been posted there by visitors. 

At first maybe you'd like to review some of his counter-arguments on the criticisms on the Qur'an:

Here you are able to post your questions (only Mondays):

I would be very thankful if you responded me as soon as possible. 

May Peace be with you!

Aziz  


Dear Aziz    

Thank you for your polite letter. It sure was much different from what I am used to receive.  

You asked me to look into Mr. Moiz Amjad’s website and challenge him to discuss with me. I looked into his site just because you are such a gentleman and I could not refuse your request. The page I read is about the controversy in the Quran that in one place says the creation took place in 6 days and in another place says it took place in 8 days.   

Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly say that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in Sura 41:9-12 we are given another number.    

    Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in TWO Days And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds. 

    He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things 

  to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR Days in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).

     Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly."  They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience." So He completed them as seven firmaments in TWO Days,

                                            -- Sura 41:9-12 (Yusuf Ali)

                                    

Here is how Mr. Amjad tried to solve this problem.    

Mr. Amjad tries to get out of this obvious contradiction by saying that 8 actually means 6. Here is his explanation.    

The Qur'an in these verses was actually saying that the basic structure of the earth was created in two (2) days. Later on, mountains, seas and other paraphernalia required for the sustenance of living organisms on this basic structure of the earth were designed and created. And all this work (including the creation of the earth and the designing and provision of the paraphernalia) was completed in a total of four (4) days. After this, the skies were modeled and seven heavens were created in two (2) days. Thus the total time involved in the creation of the earth and the heavens totalled to six (6) days -- not eight (8) days. 

Here Mr. Amjad is trying to convince the reader that the first 2 days of the creation of the Earth is part of the 4 days when Allah set up the mountains and gave it sustenance. In this way he tries to get rid of the first 2 days and he is so impressed with his “discovery” that he claims to have fallen in prostration to thank his Lord. But this is just not so.  

Looks like Mr. Amjad thanked his Lord for nothing because his finding is based on denials and not facts. The Quran after saying that Allah created the Earth in 2 days says (verse 10):  He set on it, mountains and bestowed blessings in 4 days.  

It is very clear, that the creation of the Earth precedes the providing sustenance and these are two different and consecutive events.  

He says that even a two-year-old child knows that 2 + 4 + 2 = 8 and therefore Muhammad could not have made such mistake. No one is saying that Muhammad did not know how to add these simple numbers. But he uttered the verses of the Quran during 23 years. That is enough time for a liar to forget what he said before. So at one time he said the creation took place in 6 days and a few years later he forgot and said it took 8 days. Liars have bad memories. And this is the explanation of this controversy.   

Now let us put aside the numbers and take a look at the absurdity of this claim. According to the above verses the Earth is created first, the mountains and sustenance are given next and it is only at last that the firmaments are created.  

This is enough for us to know that Muhammad knew nothing of what he was talking about.  The Earth being a spec of dust in this universe is only 4.5 billion years old while the age of the universe is estimated to be 15 billion years. So the firmament predates the creation of the Earth at least by 10 billion years, and was not created after the Earth and after plantations appears on the Earth.  Muhammad used to think that Earth is flat and above it is a dome like a bowl covering a plate. He thought that the Sun and the Moon are lamps that are attached to the dome of the sky. Of course when you build a room the roof and the lamps come at the end. That is why he puts the creation of the firmament at last and gives it only 2 days. Why concern ourselves with the numbers when we have such grotesque error in those verses?   

He speaks of 7 layers of heaven. What is this? This is just the thinking of cavemen. The sky does not have 7 layers. It is clear that he was talking just nonsense.  

For more on this subject please visit Answering Islam

In this link  you can see that the theory of considering the 2 days creation of the Earth as part of the 4 days of providing substance on it was actually suggested by other Islamic scholars including Yusuf Ali and they were already proven wrong before Mr. Amjad declare it as his own “discovery” and fall in prostration.   

Anyway, if you still think that Mr. Amjad can meet the challenge that I presented to the Muslims, please tell him I am ready. I can bet that he will find an excuse and would not show up. Someone said Mr. Harun Yahya would answer me. He even wrote to Mr, Harun Yahya and sent me a copy of his acceptance.  Well this is almost 8 or 9 months ago and I am still waiting.  

I can assure you that those Muslims who have a name and want to protect their names will not come forward. But if they come we will be more than delighted to discuss with them and should they manage to prove us wrong I will stick to my end of the bargain and will remove this site.  

Please contact Mr. Amjad and tell his we are ready. Send me a copy of your invitation to him so I can publish it and it becomes a public and official invitation. If he says we are unimportant you know that he is just being afraid. Our site is 25 times more popular than his and so this should not be an excuse. If he refused to debate, write to someone else until you find someone who is willing to debate. If no one dares to show up, please ask yourself what are you doing wasting your life with a cult that has no answers to logical arguments. All Islam is good for is to advance through violence. But even Nazism could do that. If the world had  not stopped Hitler he would have conquered the world. Are Muslims capable to refute my claims through reason? 

Sincerely yours

Ali Sina


Aziz

Assalam 

At first I want to say that I am extremely sorry for not being able to write an immediate reply to your email. 

After having read your criticisms on the article,"Six or Eight Days of Creation" written by Moiz Amjad I have confronted him with your review and asked him kindly to analyze your arguments. 

Here is you can view his response:

 

Regards, 

Aziz


Dear Aziz  

Thank you for sending to me Mr. Amjad’s response. As it is clear Mr. Amjad is trying to convince himself that the 2 days that it took to create the Earth is part of the 4 days that it took to create the mountains and other things. To do so Mr. Amjad insists that “thumma” in Arabic, which is equivalent to “then” in English does not indicate sequence and order of events. To prove his point he quotes examples in English and in Arabic where “then” and “thumma” do not indicate sequence of events but mean:  “and”, “plus”, “in addition”, “furthermore”, “also” “moreover”, “therefore”, “in that case”, etc.  

That is true! “Then” and “thumma” could mean all those things. However in all these examples that “then” and “thumma” do not indicate sequence of events, TIME is not the subject matter. But when TIME is the subject matter, both “then” and “thumma” invariably indicate sequence of events. So if I say I framed a house in one month THEN I completed it in 6 months that “then” indicates sequence and should be translated as after that, next, afterward, subsequently, followed by, etc.  If I had said, “I framed a house in one month AND finished it in 6 months, then that could be also interpreted as if the one month of framing is part of the 6 months of completing the house. However the Quran does not say “Wa” (and), it says “thumma”, which means “then” and that can only be interpreted as sequence of time.  

If I tell you that this morning I woke up, then I took a shower and shaved, then I had breakfast, then I went to my office. You have no doubt about the sequence of events. I could not have gone to my office or showered before waking up. The “then” makes it clear which event precedes which. But when I said I took shower and shaved you don’t know which one I did first because I did not use “then”. I could have shaven before, at the time that I was showering or after that. That sequence of events is not clear. In all other cases, there is no doubt which event took place first and which one took next.  

In the Quran verse 41:9-12 we have a series of events that are separated from each other by “thumma”. Since those verses describe the time that took each event, that “thumma” indicates sequence of events and nothing else.  This is such a simple mater that I am even surprised why we should argue about it. 

Anyway, Mr. Amjad not only failed to acknowledge his error, he avoided altogether the most important part of my response that had nothing to do with numbers and grammar but with science and logic.  

The Quran says that the creation of the Earth precedes the creation of the heavens (or the firmaments). We know absolutely that is not the case. The Earth is part of this universe and the part could not have been created before the whole. The big bang that gave birth to this universe took place billions of year prior to the formation of our Sun and our Earth. This is the most obvious error of this verse. Mr. Amjad completely ignores this point and does not even mention it. Although he is good in giving some absurd answers to any question for the sake of just having said something, can he explain this difficulty? It would be fun to watch him waddle out of this quagmire.   

Kind regards  

Ali Sina  

 

 

 

 

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