Leaving Islam



 Intercession: a debate between

Javed Ahmad Ghamidi vs. Ali Sina 

 Ali Sina's response:


Dear Mr. Khalid Zaheer: 

I am glad and honored that Mr. Javed Ahmad Ghamidi has accepted the invitation of Free Inquirer to debate with me. I am also pleased that you agree to share your knowledge with us and respond to my questions. Unfortunately most Muslim scholars are not as open-minded as your good self and Mr. Ghamidi. They seem to have boycotted me and prefer to ignore me as if I do not exist. The truth is that I do exist and the questions that I have raised are making the public – both Muslim and non-Muslim – talk. The reluctance of Muslim scholars to respond to my questions reflect poorly on them and also on Islam. Therefore it is heartening to find a real scholar who is confident enough to not shirk from confronting a “renegade” apostate like yours truly.  

You also emphasized on the futility of engaging in “a polemic which results
in a senseless competition of rhetoric wherein the contestants are in reality playing a game in the garb of an academic debate.”  I cannot agree more and let me add that I admire your positive attitude and your commitment to truth. This is indeed a rare quality and it speaks volumes about your, and Mr. Ghamidi’s integrity as true scholars. Our goal, as you stated, should be to unravel the truth and not to childishly try to win the argument at any cost. Since this debate/dialogue will be posted on the Internet for everyone to see, I am sure our readers do not expect anything less from either one of us and such an immature behavior would be tantamount to shooting ourselves in the foot. 

When the objective is to find the truth, talking about “defeating the other party” is puerile. How can one be defeated when at the end of the debate truth triumphs and we all learn something? The triumph of the truth means the victory for everyone. The one who learns more is the bigger winner and it is in this sense alone that I hope to be a winner. Only those who have inflated egos will feel defeated once proven wrong. I was born ignorant and still I am to a great extent. I learned everything I know from others. I have no shame of my ignorance. It is haughtiness, condescendence and obstinacy that are shameful. You know better than me that ego acts as a veil to enlightenment and understanding. 

To know that you don't know is the foundation of all wisdom. Willing to doubt what you know is the virtue of the sage. Haughtiness and arrogance are the traits of the fool. 

Since we both are after the truth, I am sure this discussion would be a win/win for both of us and also for our readers.

I read the page you sent me as attachment and I fully agree with its content. Let me assure you that I am not going to present any argument that is not in the Quran, the Sahih Hadith (Bukhari, Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud) and the Sira (Ibn Ishaq, Tabari, Waqidi, Ibn Sa’d) as evidence. I may quote some scholars to make an example but our discussion will be only on the above-mentioned sources.      


Let us begin without further ado.  

I will address now Mr. Ghamidi. I will start with less contentious subjects and move on to more difficult ones. My first question is about intercession. 

In your book Al Bayan you have made it clear that intercession, as believed by many Muslims, is a myth. You quoted the following verses of the Quran to back up your claim: 

“[A reward] from the Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that lies between them; the most Gracious – there is no one who has  the  authority  to  speak  on  His  behalf. On the Day when Gabriel and the angels will stand arrayed [before Him]. [The Day] when only they will speak whom the most Gracious allows and who speak the truth.” (78:37-38) 

In the footnote you wrote the following explanation: “This and the next two verses strongly negate the philosophy of mediation and intercession. The angels whom the polytheists believe to be their intercessors will themselves respectfully stand before the Almighty on the Day of Judgement. No one will have the position to speak on behalf of the Almighty. Only they will speak whom the Almighty permits and they too will not be able to utter anything false.” [1]

You also quoted verse 2:48: 

And guard yourselves against the day when no soul shall be of use to another in anyway and no intercession shall be accepted and no compensation be taken from it and nor will people be helped.

Then you commented:There is a negation of three things in this verse: intercession, compensation and help. However, this is just the negation of the outcome: actually the negation is of the existence of someone who can intercede, compensate or help. In other words, what is implied is that on that day there will be no intercession, compensation and help because there will be no person who would do these.” [2]

This sounds reasonable to me. In fact there are many verses in the Quran that confirm what you said. Here are a few:

O children of Israel, call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations. And be on your guard against a day when NO SOUL shall avail ANOTHER in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it, nor shall they be helped.  2:122-123

O you who believe! Spend out of what We have given you before the day comes in which there is no bargaining, neither any friendship nor intercession. 2:254

Whosoever works evil, will be requited accordingly. Nor will he find, besides God, any protector or helper. 4:123

And warn with it those who fear that they shall be gathered to their Lord - there is no guardian for them, nor any intercessor besides Him - that they may guard (against evil). 6:51

Leave alone those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself no protector or intercessor except Allah: if it offered every ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is (the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts.  6:70

Allah it is Who created the heavens and the earth, and that which is between them, in six Days. Then He mounted the Throne. Ye have not, beside Him, a protecting friend or mediator. Will ye not then remember? 32:4 [3]

The fact that Muhammad has no power to save anyone from Hellfire is clearly stated in the verse:  39:19

Is he on whom the word of doom is fulfilled (to be helped), and canst thou (O Muhammad) rescue him who is in the Fire? (Pickthal) 

This point seems to be clear enough! Or is it? 

Amazingly, despite all these verses, many Muslims believe that Muhammad has the power to intercede for them in front of Allah and save them from the Fire on the Day of Judgment. Ukasha Al-Tayyibi has written a book to prove this very point. He writes: 

Intercession "On the Day of Judgment Prophet Muhammad (SAW) will be the only prophet who will be granted permission to intercede to save mankind from the terrors of awaiting judgment on the Day of Rising.

[We] must not fail to understand that matters which are great and insignificant, large or small, are preordained confirmed in the knowledge of Allah. Surely Allah mighty has decreed and determined the states of the [in]tercessor, and for whom he intercedes.

Or has taken an analytical approach to prove that [int]ercession can only be granted by Allah's permission, [t]hat Prophet Muhammad (SAW) will intercede for mankind at five various levels, i.e. from the crossing of the Sirat to the height of peoples rank within the garden of paradise.

Each chapter has been carefully researched and examined according to the Quran and Hadith and by reading this book Muslims and non-Muslims alike will have a greater and clearer understanding on the meaning of intercession and what it entails." [4] 

As you see, Ukasha Al-Tayyibi claims that his book is based on the Quran and Hadith. I have not read his book but I have found many Quranic verses as well as Hadiths that ratify his claim. I will quote a few and I am sure you'll find more proofs in his book. 

The Quran:

Who is there can intercede in His [Allah’s] presence except as He permitteth? 2:255

This verse seems to imply that there is at least one person who can intercede with Allah. Let us see if there are more verses confirming this point.

No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). 10:3

On the day when We shall gather the righteous unto the Beneficent, a goodly company. And drive the guilty unto hell, a weary herd, they will have no power of intercession, save him who hath made a covenant with his Lord. 19:85-87

On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (Allah) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him. 20:109

And We [1st person plural] did not send before you any messenger but We revealed to him that there is no god but Me, [1st person singular]  therefore serve Me. And they say: The Beneficent Allah has taken to Himself a son. Glory be to Him.[3rd person singular]  Nay! they are honored servants They do not precede Him in speech and (only) according to His commandment do they act. He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble. And whoever of them should say: Surely I am a god besides Him, such a one do We recompense with hell; thus do, We recompense the unjust. 21:25-29

No intercession can avail in His Presence, except for those for whom He has granted permission. So far (is this the case) that, when terror is removed from their hearts (at the Day of Judgment, then) will they say, ‘what is it that your Lord commanded?’ they will say, ‘That which is true and just; and He is the Most High Most Great’. 34:23 [5]

Verses 43:86 and 53:26 also tell us that no one can intercede with Allah except those whom Allah pleases.

In the above verses we get the confirmation that someone is capable to intercede with Allah. I highlighted these exceptions in red.

I also highlighted the pronouns. We see sometimes Allah refers to himself in third person singular, (He)  then shifts to first person plural (We) and sometimes to first person singular (I and Me). Will you please explain this unorthodox way of speech? It appears that these are Muhammad’s Freudian slips. It is as if the Prophet keeps forgetting that the Quran is supposed to be the word of Allah and Allah should not allude to himself in 3rd person. You find this error in the entire Quran. I hope you give some explanation to that as well. Is the Quran really the word of God or that of the illiterate Muhammad? 

Anyway, let us continue with our main discussion. The following verses are interesting because Muhammad actually starts interceding with Allah for his followers right away even before the Judgment Day. 

Those who sustain the Throne (of Allah) and those around it sing Glory and Praise to their Lord; believe in Him; and implore forgiveness for those who believe: "Our Lord! Thy Reach is over all things, in Mercy and Knowledge. Forgive, then, [Now this is clearly Muhammad supplicating to Allah] those who turn in Repentance, and follow Thy Path; and preserve them from the Penalty of the Blazing Fire! And grant, our Lord! that they enter the Gardens of Eternity, which Thou hast promised to them, and to the righteous among their fathers, their wives, and their posterity! For Thou art, the Exalted in Might, Full of Wisdom. And preserve them from (all) ills; and any whom Thou dost preserve from ills that Day,- on them wilt Thou have bestowed Mercy indeed: and that will be truly (for them) the highest Achievement." 40:7-9.

These verses surly can’t be the words of Allah. They are clearly Muhammad’s prayer to Allah. If they are the words of Allah, whom is Allah supplicating to? If they are the words of Muhammad, a) why they are in the Quran, and b) don’t they contradict 2:48, 2:122-123, 2:254, 4:123, 6:5, 6:70, 39:43-44, 82:18-19, 17:56-57 discussed above?

Now let us take a look at some Sahih ahadith.

The Hadith

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
The Prophet said, "A man keeps on asking others for something till he comes on the Day of Resurrection without any piece of flesh on his face." The Prophet added, "On the Day of Resurrection, the Sun will come near (to, the people) to such an extent that the sweat will reach up to the middle of the ears, so, when all the people are in that state, they will ask Adam for help, and then Moses, and then Muhammad (p.b.u.h)." The sub-narrator added "Muhammad will intercede with Allah to judge amongst the people. He will proceed on till he will hold the ring of the door (of Paradise) and then Allah will exalt him to Maqam Mahmud (the privilege of intercession, etc.). And all the people of the gathering will send their praises to Allah.
(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 24, Number 553)

This Hadith sounds absurd. The sun coming down to scorch people and they sweat so much to get drowned in their own sweat is surly an art work of imaginative power. But that is not my point. The point I want to make is that this Hadith also states that someone very special has the power to intercede with Allah and make him revise his plans. I wonder who that person might be! Let us find out.

The Prophet added, "Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last of all) the Almighty (Allah) will say, ‘Now remains My Intercession.’ He will then hold a handful of the Fire from which He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of Paradise, called the water of life ... (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532s)

This hadith makes one to think that Allah is interceding himself. Is that possible? Isn’t that an absurdity? Unless Allah has some sort of mental disorder such as schizophrenia, making him talk to himself, pleading with himself to do what he wants to do, the above hadith makes no sense at all. Now, let us see who else beside Allah is given the power of intercession.

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "For every Prophet there is one invocation which is definitely fulfilled by Allah, and I wish, if Allah will, to keep my that (special) invocation as to be the intercession for my followers on the Day of Resurrection."
(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 566)

Oh! Wait a minute? Here Muhammad is wishing to become the intercessor for his followers? But didn’t you say that no one can intercede with Allah and that his decisions are irreversible? Oh well, I wish to become a billionaire. There is nothing wrong in wishful thinking. After all you think Islam can be a moderate religion too. Isn't that a wishful thinking? It does not mean all the wishes are going to be fulfilled. But it looks like Muhammad thought that his wish is already fulfilled. See the following hadith:

Narrated Ma’bad bin Hilal Al’Anzi:
We, i.e., some people from Basra gathered and went to Anas bin Malik, and we went in company with Thabit Al-Bunnani so that he might ask him about the Hadith of Intercession on our behalf. Behold, Anas was in his palace, and our arrival coincided with his Duha prayer. We asked permission to enter and he admitted us while he was sitting on his bed. We said to Thabit, "Do not ask him about anything else first but the Hadith of Intercession." He said, "O Abu Hamza! There are your brethren from Basra coming to ask you about the Hadith of Intercession." Anas then said, "Muhammad talked to us saying, ‘On the Day of Resurrection the people will surge with each other like waves, and then they will come to Adam and say, ‘Please intercede for us with your Lord.’ He will say, ‘I am not fit for that but you'd better go to Abraham as he is the Khalil of the Beneficent.’ They will go to Abraham and he will say, ‘I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Moses as he is the one to whom Allah spoke directly.’ So they will go to Moses and he will say, ‘I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Jesus as he is a soul created by Allah and His Word.’ (Be: And it was) they will go to Jesus and he will say, ‘I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Muhammad.’

They would come to me and I would say, ‘I am for that.’ Then I will ask for my Lord's permission, and it will be given, and then He will inspire me to praise Him with such praises as I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those praises and will fall down, prostrate before Him. Then it will be said, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for your will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my followers! My followers!’ And then it will be said, ‘Go and take out of Hell (Fire) all those who have faith in their hearts, equal to the weight of a barley grain.’ I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down (prostrate) before Him. Then it will be said, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my followers! My followers!’ It will be said, ‘Go and take out of it all those who have faith in their hearts equal to the weight of a small ant or a mustard seed.’ I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down in prostration before Him. It will be said, ‘O, Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my followers!’ Then He will say, ‘Go and take out (all those) in whose hearts there is faith even to the lightest, lightest mustard seed. (Take them) out of the Fire.’ I will go and do so."

When we left Anas, I said to some of my companions, "Let's pass by Al-Hasan who is hiding himself in the house of Abi Khalifa and request him to tell us what Anas bin Malik has told us." So we went to him and we greeted him and he admitted us. We said to him, "O Abu Said! We came to you from your brother Anas Bin Malik and he related to us a Hadith about the intercession the like of which I have never heard." He said, "What is that?" Then we told him of the Hadith and said, "He stopped at this point (of the Hadith)." He said, "What then?" We said, "He did not add anything to that." He said, Anas related the Hadith to me twenty years ago when he was a young fellow. I don't know whether he forgot or if he did not like to let you depend on what he might have said." We said, "O Abu Said! Let us know that." He smiled and said, "Man was created hasty. I did not mention that, but that I wanted to inform you of it.

Anas told me the same as he told you and said that the Prophet added, ‘I then return for a fourth time and praise Him similarly and prostrate before Him me the same as he ‘O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for you will be granted (your request): and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, allow me to intercede for whoever said, ‘None has the right to be worshiped except Allah.’ Then Allah will say, ‘By my Power, and my Majesty, and by My Supremacy, and by My Greatness, I will take out of Hell (Fire) whoever said: ‘None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.’" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 601)

This sahih hadith not only contradicts your claim that there are no intercessors with Allah it is actually a very ridiculous story. Muhammad here is portraying the entire Divine system as a joke. This story sounds naive. Should really, you and I, in this age of enlightenment read such tales and believe in them? In this hadith Muhammad is predicting what people would do in the Day of Judgment, how they will run to various prophets and how these poor fellows (the prophets) would feel helpless to intercede on their behalf until our hero, Muhammad, would valiantly go to the fearsome Wizard of the Oz of this Universe to ask forgiveness for his followers and Allah grants all his wishes. All Muslims will be eventually forgiven, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, Khomeini, mass murderers and terrorists will all be saved from Hellfire by Muhammad, as long as they had a small amount of faith in him. The unbelievers will of course be left to burn in Hell for eternity because they had the trepidation to use their brain and not accept things that made no sense to them. I like how Muhammad bargains with Allah going back and forth and each time he gets a little more concession. How can one not be grateful to this hard working and kinder than God prophet?

Now, this story has not yet happened. It will happen on the Day of Judgment. But Muhammad already knew exactly how it is going to happen and what Allah is going to do and say on that Day. It sounds goofy but it makes a fine children’s story.

The absurdity of this tale is beyond description. What Muhammad is trying to say is that it really does not matter how much crime you commit, the Heaven is a hanky panky place and if you just believe in me and become my follower, I will pull some strings with Allah and rescue you from the Hellfire. Your actions are secondary. You could be a murderer, a rapist, a thief, a pedophile, etc. you will be still forgiven if you just accept me as the prophet of God. Just have an itsy bitsy blind faith in me and I will save you from Fire. 

And I thought the purpose of God in sending prophets was to teach people how to live righteously and not to sin. How silly of me! Now I know that all that we must do to go to paradise is to have a little faith in Muhammad. Our conduct is not that important. Actually many Muslims happily live by this dictum. They commit all sorts of perversities and sins and yet they have strong faith in Islam and Muhammad to the extent that they would happily slit the throat of anyone who slights Islam. That is the extent of their religiosity. 

Abul Husain Muslim also reports a few hadiths that support the claim that Muhammad will be the sole intercessor with Allah on the Day of Judgment, who would be sitting on the right hand of Allah advising him how to run his business, whom to punish and whom to reward.

It is reported on the authority of Abu Zubair that he heard from Jabir b. 'Abdullah, who was asked about the arrival (of people on the Day of Resurrection). He said. We would come on the Day of Resurrection like this, like this, and see, carefully, that which concerns "elevated people". He (the narrator) said: Then the people would be summoned along with their idols whom they worshipped, one after another. Then our Lord would come to us and say: Whom are you waiting for? They would say: We are waiting for our Lord. He would say: I am your Lord. They would say: (We are not sure) till we gaze at Thee, and He would manifest Himself to them smilingly, and would go along with them and they would follow Him; and every person, whether a hypocrite or a believer, would be endowed with a light, and there would be spikes and hooks on the bridge of the Hell, which would catch hold of those whom Allah willed. Then the light of the hypocrites would be extinguished, and the believers would secure salvation. And the first group to achieve it would comprise seventy thousand men who would have the brightness of full moon on their faces, and they would not be called to account. Then the people immediately following them would have their faces as the brightest stars in the heaven. This is how (the groups would follow one after another). Then the stage of intercession would come, and they (who are permitted to intercede) would intercede, till he who had declared: "There is no god but Allah" and had in his heart virtue of the weight of a barley grain would come out of the Fire. They would be then brought in the courtyard of Paradise and the inhabitants of Paradise would begin to sprinkle water over them till they would sprout like the sprouting of a thing in flood water, and their burns would disappear. They would ask their Lord till they would be granted (the bounties) of the world and with it ten more besides it. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0367)

Not only Muhammad thought that he had the power of intercession, he said that even his followers have that power.

'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that his son died in Qudaid or 'Usfan. He said to Kuraib to see as to how many people had gathered there for his (funeral). He (Kuraib) said: So I went out and I informed him about the people who had gathered there. He (Ibn 'Abbas) said: Do you think they are forty? He (Kuraib) said: Yes. Ibn 'Abbas then said to them: Bring him (the dead body) out for I have heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: If any Muslim dies and forty men who associate nothing with Allah stand over his prayer (they offer prayer over him), Allah will accept them as intercessors for him. (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 2072)

Isn’t that nice? You can commit all the sins in the world and if you have 40 people coming to your funeral praying for you Allah will accept their intercession. What if you don’t have 40 friends? My experience tells me that wealthier people have larger funerals. They serve banquets and draw huge crowds. Poorer people often die alone or with few friends and relatives around them. This hadith not only shows Allah’s injustice it is also absurd that he should listen to intercession of 40 people and forgive a sinner. This is not my idea of justice. 

Whether it is forty or four billion, it seems absurd to me that humans should have the power to influence God and make him change his mind. 

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I shall be pre-eminent amongst the descendants of Adam on the Day of Resurrection and I will be the first intercessor and the first whose intercession will be accepted (by Allah). (Sahih Muslim, Book 030, Number 5655)

These hadiths, and the above mentioned verses show not only the inherent contradiction in the Quran, but that also Muhammad wanted his followers to be at awe with his powers and know that it is he who has the authority over their destiny, so they better submit to him and serve him in this world.

You say that intercession is a myth. Please take a look at the verse 3:159 where allegedly Allah is telling Muhammad “and ask pardon for them”.  He is telling his prophet to intercede to him on behalf of his followers. This makes no sense. If Allah wants to forgive someone why is he asking Muhammad to intercede? Does he need someone lobby him for him to do what he wants to do?  Another verse repeats the same absurdity:

So know (O Muhammad) that there is no Allah save Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy sin and for believing men and believing women. Allah knoweth [3rd person] (both) your place of turmoil and your place of rest. 47:19


And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will pray for your forgiveness", they turn aside their heads, and thou wouldst see them turning away their faces in arrogance.  63:5 [6] 

If Allah does not accept intercessions what are the above injunctions for? Why Allah is telling Muhammad to ask forgiveness for the believing men and believing women?

The difficulty does not end there. Despite the above verses where allegedly Allah tells his prophet to pray for the forgiveness of his followers, there are verses that actually contradict them and say such prayers will not be accepted.

And do not plead on behalf of those who act unfaithfully to their souls; [speaking 1st person] surely Allah does not love [shifting to 3rd person] him who is treacherous, sinful;  4:107

Ask forgiveness for them (O Muhammad), [speaking in 1st person] or ask not forgiveness for them; though thou ask forgiveness for them seventy times Allah will not forgive them. [switching to 3rd person] That is because they disbelieved in Allah and His messenger, and Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. 9:80

And never (O Muhammad) [1st person] pray for one of them who dieth, nor stand by his grave. Lo! they disbelieved in Allah and His messenger, [switching to third person]  and they died while they were evil-doers. 9:84

And Noah called upon his Lord, [3rd person] and said: "O my Lord! surely my son is of my family! and Thy promise is true, and Thou art the justest of Judges!" He said: "O Noah! He is not of thy family: For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!" [Why when talking to Abraham Allah uses the correct pronoun and when speaking to Muhammad he mostly uses a wrong pronoun, suddenly speaking of himself in 3rd person?] Noah said: "O my Lord! I do seek refuge with Thee, lest I ask Thee for that of which I have no knowledge. And unless thou forgive me and have Mercy on me, I should indeed be lost!" 11:45-47

The Quran tells us that Abraham prayed to Allah for the forgiveness of his parents. 

O our Lord! cover (us) with Thy Forgiveness - me, my parents, and (all) Believers, on the Day that the Reckoning will be established! 14:41

Forgive my father, for that he is among those astray. 26:86

Yet, Abu Huraira narrates a hadith saying Abraham’s prayers will not be accepted.

The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection Abraham will meet his father Azar whose face will be dark and covered with dust. (The Prophet Abraham will say to him): ‘Didn't I tell you not to disobey me?’ His father will reply: ‘Today I will not disobey you.’ Abraham will say: ‘O Lord! You promised me not to disgrace me on the Day of Resurrection; and what will be more disgraceful to me than cursing and dishonoring my father?’ Then Allah will say (to him): ‘I have forbidden Paradise for the disbelievers." Then he will be addressed, ‘O Abraham! Look! What is underneath your feet?’ He will look and there he will see a Dhabh (an animal,) blood-stained, which will be caught by the legs and thrown in the (Hell) Fire. (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 569)

Isn’t it funny that Muhammad knew the discussion that would take place between Abraham and his father in future when he actually could not predict what would happen to him the next day or at least know where Kinana, the youthful leader of Khaibar, had hidden his treasure so he did not have to torture that wretched soul to death to make him talk? Anyway, that is another subject. This hadith confirms your belief that Allah will not accept anyone’s intercession. However, it contradicts all other verses and haidths that I quoted above.

So praying for the deceased is not permitted, especially if the deceased was an unbeliever. At least this is what some of the verses say. However,  cursing people is okay. Sura 111 is nothing but curse. Allah, reveals a Sura to curse Muhammad’s uncle and his wife.   

Perish the hands of the Father of Flame! Perish he! : No profit to him from all his wealth, and all his gains! : Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of Blazing Flame! His wife shall carry the (crackling) wood - As fuel!- A twisted rope of palm-leaf fibre round her (own) neck! 

Is really this Sura from Allah? Why would Allah need to curse anyone when he can crush him and destroy him so easily? Isn't it more logical to believe that at least this Sura is made up by Muhammad out of frustration and rage? 

Sometimes one verse is contradicted by the subsequent verse. For example the verse 2:254 says:

O you who believe! spend out of what We have given you before the day comes in which there is no bargaining, neither any friendship nor intercession, and the unbelievers.

And the following verse 2:255 contradicts it and says:

 Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth?.

Far from being a clear book the Quran is replete with contradictions. That is why Muslims can find anything they wants in the Quran and interpret it in any way they wish. Osama Bin Laden can find verses that justify his crimes against humanity and you can find verses to portray Islam as a moderate religion. I will discuss these contradictions in my future discussion with you, one at a time. My goal is to prove that far from being a book of guidance, the Quran misguides people. Muslims will do much better if they stop following this book of confusion and rely on their own intelligence to find their way, just like other people do. I hope to convince a good number of Muslims that Islam is a lost paradigm. We should not waste our time trying to reform it. Islam can't be reformed. It must be discarded. The Quran is not the word of God. One error in this book disqualifies it as the word of God. If you bear with me I will show you hundreds. We have just started. This was only a token of the humongous errors and contradictions that exist in the Quran - only a drop from an ocean of asininity.

I remain cordially yours 

Ali Sina


I received the following email from Mr. Zaheer 

Dear Mr Ali Sina

I am sorry I didn't have a clue that your initial response has already
appeared in your site. Please do me a favour: Kindly let me know whenever a
new entry relevant to this discussion is posted in your site. That would
help in enabling us to get responses more quickly.

While I await the return of Mr Ghamidi, which is going to be in a couple of
days, let me assure you that the initial part of your response is most
encouraging in its tone as indeed is the manner you have proposed discussion
should be conducted.

I have also seen the comments of some of the visitor to your site. I want to
assure them that Mr Ghamidi is not the one who would shy away from academic
discussions. Like Mr Ali, he too is always open to truth. The fact that the
two scholars are located at the opposite sides of the divide in this debate
is hopefully a temporary scenario. If both are true to their commitment to
openness to truth -- and we are taught in our religion to not doubt the
intentions of anyone -- there is no reason why they wouldn't come together
and accept the reality which one of them would discover from the other.

If I am not wrong, you have pointed out the following two problems in the
Islamic teachings in your message:

1) The Qur’an, ahadith (statements attributed to the prophet), and opinions
of Islamic scholars are conflicting on the question of intercession in the
hereafter. You’ve pointed out that the Qur’an contradicts itself while
talking about the issue of intercession. The conflict becomes even more
pronounced when we look at ahadith and views of scholars on the issue.

2) There is no consistency in the Qur’anic text in the usage of pronouns for
God Almighty. First person singular, first person plural, and third person
masculine singular have all been used for God at times in the same passages.

I do acknowledge that both points are valid and in the absence of a
satisfactory explanation, an intelligent, truth-seeking person can find
himself unconvinced about the veracity of the text that is making such
statements. However, I would expect from all good visitors to your site that
in case if some valid explanation is offered to them, they will at least
look at it with an open mind. So we all await Mr Ghamidi’s response. As soon
as it reaches me, I will communicate it to you.

One thing more: Ramadanul Mubarak is expected to commence from coming
Sunday. The holy month changes our routine considerably. I’ll do my best to
keep this discussion on as much as is possible. But at times, you will have
to bear with me. I hope you understand.

Khalid Zaheer

I would like also to clarify that I did send the link of the article to Mr. Zaheer a few minutes after I published it in the site. I think Mr. Zaheer did not click on the Next> at the bottom of the page to go to this page and see my response.

[1] http://www.renaissance.com.pk/seocqur97.html

[2] http://www.renaissance.com.pk/MayResearCmp2y4.html

[3] See also: 39:43-44, 82:18-19, 17:56-57

[5]  see also 2:254 - 255

[6] 4:64; 9:103; 24:62; 60:12

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