Sakat says:

@Why

You won!!! thank you.

Sakat says:

@ Why?
What is your identity? be careful while answering ,will acknowledge(if it is ego less and worth emulating) .

Ron says:

@why
The Unjust and Inhuman Apartheid Hindu gods and Laws. (From Hindu and Why’s Accepted translations)

Now since we are referring the same source for translation of the Hindu Laws of Manu. Can you not see the injustice, stupidity, discrimination and apartheid in these laws? E.g. Killing lower caste people and robbing them is not a crime? Etc.

All your translation are from hindu sources accepted and used by you in all your earlier posts.
http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/extra/bl-lawsofmanu11.htm

I have included YOUR ACCEPTED TRANSLATION, so that you don’t say there was a mis-translation. HERE THERE IS NO CHANCE OF A MIS-TRANSLATION.

Manu Smriti 11:67. For a Brahmin killing of women, Shudras and other castes is a small offence. Also stealing grain, metals, cattle is a small offence . Also having sex with other women who drink alcohol and atheism is a small offence. For all the above you will only lose caste as the offence is small.

Your translation 11: 67. Stealing grain, base metals, or cattle, intercourse with women who drink spirituous liquor, slaying women, Sudras, Vaisyas, or Kshatriyas, and atheism, (are all) minor offences, causing loss of caste (Upapataka).

Manu Smriti 5:154. Men may be lacking virtue, be sexual perverts, immoral and devoid of any good qualities, and yet women must constantly worship and serve their husbands.

Your translation: 5: 154. Though destitute of virtue, or seeking pleasure (elsewhere), or devoid of good qualities, (yet) a husband must be constantly worshipped as a god by a faithful wife.

Manu Smriti 2:215. Wise people should avoid sitting alone with one’s mother, daughter or sister. Since carnal desire is always strong, it can lead to temptation. (This was not obeyed by Brahma –creator and wise God who married his own daughter Sarasvati. Did god Brahma know the law or not?)

Your translation 2: 215. One should not sit in a lonely place with one’s mother, sister, or daughter; for the senses are powerful, and master even a learned man.

Higher caste men can have sex with lower caste women but not vice -versa
But Lower caste men to be KILLED for the same offence of having sex with higher caste women

Manu Smriti 8:366. In case a man from a lower caste enjoys sex with a woman from a higher caste, the person in question is to be awarded the death sentence. And if a person satisfies his carnal desire with women of his own caste, he should be asked to pay compensation to the women’s faith.

Your translation 8: 366. A (man of) low (caste) who makes love to a maiden (of) the highest (caste) shall suffer corporal punishment; he who addresses a maiden (on) equal (caste) shall pay the nuptial fee, if her father desires it.

Vedas are supposed to have knowledge but only the Brahmin can learn

Manu Smriti 2: 113. A Brahmin must not teach the Shudra and woman even if he dies with his knowledge without imparting it to anybody.

Your translation 2: 113. Even in times of dire distress a teacher of the Veda should rather die with his knowledge than sow it in barren soil.

2:116 On the other hand, if anyone studies the Vedas on his own he or she will go straight to hell.

Your translation 2:116. But he who acquires without permission the Veda from one who recites it, incurs the guilt of stealing the Veda, and shall sink into hell.

(Here Hindu god Ram kills Shambhuyka a Shudhra man for learning the Vedas as mentioned in the Ramayana. Did this god Rama not know that killing is wrong or did he know that Manu was right?)

why? says:

Ron says:
=====================================================
This is the conclusion in the hindu website which I believe is morally incorrect.
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/essays/sex-and-gurus.asp

Conclusion as mentioned verbatim from the hindu website:
======================================================

Good Ron. You are absolutely right when you say it is morally incorrect to have unbridled sexual freedom.

You have discovered so called Hindus who think they know Hinduism better from what they hear from movies and internet. These Hindus think that they are enlightened and justify their own lusts through scriptures. You will always find such people among any population.

If you want the truth, you should go to the core texts of orthodox Hinduism, just as I base my arguments based on core texts of Christianity or Judaism, not on hearsay from so called Christians.

There is one example of misinterpretation in website. It mentions Brhadaranyaka Upanishad as mentioning explicit sexual content and you also mentioned one place where rape is allegedly authorized. This is classic example of wrong translations. The entire Upanishad teaches about advanced methods of meditation and secrets of the world of Hindu Gods and how they control every living entity on existence. Meditating as these require first one to pass basic meditation levels and reach a state called Vairagya (a state where one is never affected by lust, greed, anger and its advanced states). The anti-Hindu mletchas base their argument on just one verse from the Upanisad that rape is there or ignorant Hindus base their argument on a chapter which talks about husband-wife sexual relationship. Certain idiotic Hindus think that the chapter is talking about sexual relationship between any man and any woman, while the Upanishad talks about husband-wife relationship. Even the sexual relationship between husband and wife is taught to be a sacred religious ritual and hence not to be sullied with impure thoughts. There is more to a human being’s existence and his actions than mere bodily existence. The upanishad says one who knows the secrets of this existence, even in sexual relationship between husband and wife will see the secret of divine existence. Such a man and woman who has reached advanced stages of meditation will never incur sin, even in so called carnal relationship between them, while others will gain only sin even if it is between husband and wife. Exactly how this is so, mere reading of Upanishads will NOT give this knowledge. One who practices severe meditative techniques and applies severe control of mind and body, only they will come to understand. This Upanishad is for advanced sages and those who have learned from them.

Ron, understand one thing, real Hinduism is for spiritually advanced civilized people. You should NOT see Hindu texts with your eyes sullied by your lusts and greed. Unfortunately 99% of Hindus are imitating and behaving like mletchas these days. They have forgotten how advanced their forefathers were spiritually and have fallen. This age (Kali Yuga which started 5000 years back) is said to be for fools and morons and majority evil sould are born in this age, whether in India or abroad. This is the reason mostly foolish Hindus who imitate mlecthas blabber like fools without understanding real content of Hindu scriptures. This is how certain horrible forms of Hinduism arose such as Khajuraho for example. Kama sutra is one example of an evil soul’s creation for his sexual indulgence. There are similar texts even within Hinduism meant to mislead evil souls called Tamas vidya (black arts based on indulgence of all sorts, example is naked aghori sadhus who are very dangerous). Good souls will untimately come to accept only satvika Vedic texts and those texts that support Vedic texts. Now it is on you or others, to accept real nature of orthodox Hinduism.

Ron says:

@why
You gave me a lot of baloney about Hindu men/women control of desires.

Your own hindu website (below) says in Christianity sex is not allowed outside marriage but in Hinduism it is permitted and in Hinduism it does not condemn it as a sin. Also all your hindu gods were caught red-handed doing forbidden sex out of marriage.
Your hindu website says it is not abnormal to have sex outside marriage.

These hindu views are against your personal views which by the way (your personal views on control, and trust and one wife forever) is in agreement with what Jesus says. So I believe if you remove this hatred by accepting or even trying Jesus you will find the truth which you are looking for.

This is what you said
// From young age, both Hindu men and women are trained in control of mind and body through strict Hindu rituals. When they mature and reach certain attainment spiritually through rigorous rituals and yogic practices, they decide to have children. Thus, both husband and wife, loyal to each other with controlled mind get a progeny. Such a progeny will NOT lust.//

This is the conclusion in the hindu website which I believe is morally incorrect.
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/essays/sex-and-gurus.asp

Conclusion as mentioned verbatim from the hindu website:
From the above, it is clear that in Hinduism sex is not a taboo, while lust is. We may also draw the following conclusions.
1. In Hinduism sex is not considered sinful but divine and an essential part of creation and procreation.
It facilitates continuity, preservation of family lineage, social order, rebirth and opportunity for the souls to work for their salvation.
2. Both men and women have the permission to indulge in sexual acts as part of their obligatory duties, subject to the norms prescribed for them.
3. As a rule, students are not allowed to indulge in sexual intercourse or even the thought of it before the completion of their education.
4. Householders have the freedom to engage in sex within as well outside their marriage, as part of their obligatory duties and to maintain the order and regularity of the world.
5. As a rule ascetic people are not allowed to engage in sexual intercourse, except in tantric traditions.
However, in some traditions, ascetic people and spiritual masters are allowed to marry and lead the life of a householders.
In exceptional circumstances they are also allowed to perform special services to childless women procreate.
5. If ascetic people indulge in sexual acts out of lust, it dissipates their spiritual energy (ojas) and leads to their spiritual downfall.
However, through austerities and spiritual practices, they can regain their lost power and spiritual purity.
It is important to remember in this discussion that Hinduism is a fluid religion. It is neither rigid nor dogmatic nor judgmental.
The freedom that we enjoy in Hinduism is meant not to disregard the prevailing norms of society,
but to cultivate tolerance and remain indifferent to the practices with which we may not agree.
A spiritual guru may engage in sex or may not. Whether he is right or wrong depends upon what he preaches and practices.

Ron says:

https://hinduismkisachai.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/pornography-in-ramayan/

The above site also tells you and refers the same passages and even others

why? says:

Ron says:
=============================================================
@why. I will still call you brother despite whatever you call me because you are a child of God and Jesus taught us to love all and hate no one. Jesus said bless your enemies also (though you are not an enemy).
===================================================================

Ron I am NOT your brother and please do NOT call me brother. I would NOT like to associate with a prostitute born race such as mletchas. You may think this is hatred, but it is fact. It is a fact that your women and men act as prostitutes only. How many women did you have sex with Ron until today, besides your wife if you are married? Answer this question and you will know I am talking the truth.

Aybody can talk as jeebus did. But what is important is whether jeebus really followed his teachings. How own words tell otherwise and I have proven it to you that jeebus is full of hatred and vice. Besides, I cannot accept the words of illegitimate born sinful wretched mlectha’s words.

Ron says:
=============================================================
Debating with you increased my knowledge of Hinduism a lot. Even hindu websites are mentioning the crimes and deficiencies or immorals of the hindu gods for whatever reasons.
============================================================

Ron, you have NOT increased your knowledge, only ignorance, lies and falsehood about Hinduism. I have shown you how many LIES and falsehood you have quoted with evidence. It is upto you to really see the truth. But I know you will NOT accept it for you are born in a sinful race of prostitutes and bound to hell. Truth will be indigestible for you and only demonic falsehoods attractive to you.

Jeebus is not going to help you, he will slaughter you like a sheep is slaughtered by shepherd for meat. Jeebus is a flesh eating preta. Please see what a preta is. It is NOT coincidence that jeebus himself says he is shepherd and his followers are sheep. What does a shepherd do with his livestock? He slaughters it for meat and warm clothes. This is your destiny following a demonic spirit jeebus.

Ron says:

@why. I will still call you brother despite whatever you call me because you are a child of God and Jesus taught us to love all and hate no one. Jesus said bless your enemies also (though you are not an enemy).

Debating with you increased my knowledge of Hinduism a lot. Even hindu websites are mentioning the crimes and deficiencies or immorals of the hindu gods for whatever reasons.

You may be born in it but you need to question it and be a seeker and look without bias. (it is very very difficult to do so specially when you are indoctrinated in it, born in it and hate non-Hindus specially Christ and Christians).

You should watch this video it will change your life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyZV7KnbRvo

why? says:

Ron says:
=================================================
9.94. A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would (otherwise) be impeded, (he must marry) sooner.
==========================================================================

Yes Ron the verse says so.

1. The question is whether Hindus took this verse literally at any time

and

2. did it have some other meaning or does marriage have some other sanctity for Hindus besides being just a sexual contract between a man and a woman.

First read the following passages to understand what marriage ceremony meant for Hindus by reading further passages.

9.95. The husband receives his wife from the gods, (he does not wed her) according to his own will; doing what
is agreeable to the gods, he must always support her (while she is) faithful.

9.96. To be mothers were women created, and to be fathers men; religious rites, therefore, are ordained in the
Veda to be performed (by the husband) together with the wife.

So the understanding is from 9:96 is the wife and husband have to be trained in performing religious rites with control of mind. Just like baptism is for christianity, Hindu men have sacred thread ceremony at age 6-8 years. Similarly women have marriage as sacred rite for initiating her into religious life.

Note the verse 9:95. It says clearly the husband does not wed the girl according to his own will, ie. the man does NOT pick up his wife like a vegetable from market or a piece of ornament in a shop. It happens as ordained by Gods and she is given to him as an invaluable gift by Gods. They are inseparable pairs from one life to another and even in next life. This is why Hindus go for arranged marriage and NOT so called love marriage (which in reality is nothing but lust marriage). All these lust marriages always end up in divorce. Untrained mind is characteristic of you mletchas.

From young age, both Hindu men and women are trained in control of mind and body through strict Hindu rituals. When they mature and reach certain attainment spiritually through rigorous rituals and yogic practices, they decide to have children. Thus, both husband and wife, loyal to each other with controlled mind get a progeny. Such a progeny will NOT lust.

Now, is the Manu smriti age indicative or prescriptive. Medhatithi, a well known commentator, says that the age is merely indicative of the age differences between husband and wife. Only that the age difference should be enough so that the wife will accept her husband as a religious teacher and respect him. It is NOT prescriptive of exact age differences.

So this solves the misunderstanding of Hindu scripture regarding the pedophilia allegations.

Again Ron, you being a mletcha like Ra will reject it as spinning. It is your wish whether you accept it or not. But I have given truthfully Hindu understanding of what marriage is between man and woman. marriage is a first of all a sanctimonious relationship where a man and woman grows spiritually in this life and continues to be husband and wife even in salvation. This is why, Hinduism does NOT recognize divorce and disqualifies the husband who divorces his wife permanently from any religious rites and yogic practices.

Unlike your barbaric religions where marriage is mere sexual contract, in Hinduism it is first of all it is a spiritual journey that two souls make together life after life.

why? says:

Ron says:
============================================
The gospel clearly says that Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
====================================================

You did NOT answer the question posted earlier. Will you consider a man who impregnates an unmarried girl engaged to another man moral or immoral? Will you consider a child born through such union pure or sullied by sin? Please answer it honestly Ron…

What kind of unholy spirit impregnates an unmarried girl who is engaged recently to another man, whether miraculously or not? Why would you NOT consider this act immoral?

Why would God do such a prohibited act of making an engaged girl pregnant, which appears like a birth through illicit relationship or criminal intercourse?

If you answer the above questions, you will know that jeebus was born through illicit and criminal sexual intercourse only and NO real God can do such an act which appears like pregnancy out of wedlock or adultery. One who is engaged to another man belongs to that man and that man to that woman. Any pregnancy that happens outside of this relationship is adultery ONLY. God will NEVER do such act.

ONLY demonic beings do such act. Demons and ghosts (preta, paisacha, rakshas in Hindu terminology) do such acts of making engaged and married women pregnant. They select particularly widows, married women and engaged women. They in turn are born through such relationship as men to spread their false teachings. Jesus is such a being or jesus is in fact a preta, a demonic being.

Ron says:
==========================================
Getting born without a father is NOT a crime of the child. Whether you believe in miracles or not.
===============================================

According to your own jesus,

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

As per his own standard, jesus is a bad fruit from the bad tree. His own words of causing war and division and lack of peace proves it further, for jesus is a flesh eating preta.

Matthew 10:34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Manu Smriti:

10.59. A base-born man either resembles in character his father, or his mother, or both; he can never conceal his
real nature.
10.60. Even if a man, born in a great family, sprang from criminal intercourse, he will certainly possess the
faults of his (father), be they small or great.

Ron says:
===================================
Jesus NEVER did any of the above.
===================================

Ron, first you will have to prove what you claimed. Majority of what you wrote recently is pure LIES and falsehood, if not misunderstanding.

Second, It is already established that jesus was born through adulterous relationship ONLY. The story about unholy ghost or some demon god making her pregnant are stories spinned or if it is truly some miracle, it implies that only demonic entities will do such acts. Both ways you are in a fix.

Ron says:
===================================
Hindu gods DID ALL OF THE ABOVE.

If you need more proof, please do let me know.
====================================

There are no proofs for LIES and falsehood Ron.

why? says:

Ron’s example of PURE LIES:
===================================
Sex With Animals :: Holy Purans :: It is Valid in Hinduism. Brahma had a sexual relationship with a Bear. A son called Jambu Vandan was born from this act of bestiality.

* Brother and Sister Sex :: Rig Veda :: It is Valid in Hinduism. Ashvisns married Surya and Savitri who were sisters.
=======================================================

First, it is said Ashvins married Surya and Savitri who were his sisters as per Rig Veda. The idiot mlectha Ron nor the Sikh mletcha who quoted this both do not know that Ashvins, Surya and Savitra in Rig Veda all refer to MALE beings. So much for the lies and false propaganda the mletchas do even without knowing anything about Rig Veda.

Second, Jambavan is said to be a bear born from mouth of Brahma at the beginning of creation before even many Hindu Gods were created. There is no chance that bears existed at this time.

The total number of LIES propagated by you mletchas is countless. What else can be expected from a prostitute born races who worships a man-god born through illicit relationship?

Manu Smriti:

10.59. A base-born man either resembles in character his father, or his mother, or both; he can never conceal his
real nature.
10.60. Even if a man, born in a great family, sprang from criminal intercourse, he will certainly possess the
faults of his (father), be they small or great.

Ron says:

@why Hindus worship sexual organs of these sex crazy gods.

Crime by God (Hindu gods) as demonstrated is significant as they are supposed to be role models for their creation. Follow Jesus he is sinless and cannot be indicted for any crime.
Crime by creations (general people) happens in every country.

Hindus worship sexual organs of these sex crazy gods.

From The Shiv Purana Lord Shiva And Linga Purana– A Dirty Story

Once Lord Siva visited to Tarugavanam and meet Birunthai Rishi. At that time Lord Siva saw Rishi’s very beautiful wife. Usually Lord Siva is worst in sexual character. Lord Siva planned to rape Rishi’s wife and in midnight Lord Siva made the voice of cock. Immediately Birunthai Rishi thought that was dawn and he went to River Ganges for bath. In the mean time Lord Siva changed his shape himself as like Birunthai Rishi and entered inside the cottage. Rishi’s wife did not refuse for the sex and Lord Siva enjoyed sex with her. Birunthai Rishi confused himself and feel that time must be midnight. Rishi immediately returned to his cottage and saw his wife in raped condition. Rishi identified that was Lord Siva. Rishi got angry about this kind of immoral activity of Lord Siva. Rishi gave Sabam ( the effective spiritual words during the the time of anger ). Rishi cried, ” The penis rapes my wife must be destroy immediately.” After the sabam of Rishi, The penis of Lord Siva detached from him and come down to the earth as like arrow. The Devas requested Lord Siva’s wife Parvathi to save the earth from the danger of Lord siva’s penis. Parvathi herself accepted the penis of Lord Siva into her vagina as like lock and key method. Lord Brahmma gave base support to the sexual organs that is linga Beetam. Only the sexual organs of Lord Siva and Parvathi is known as Siva Lingam.

What a nasty story about creation!

I just learnt a story of how Ram was created. That will surprise you if you are not aware.

Ron says:

@why
Cutting a fruitless tree or talking to it or cursing it is NOT a crime, is NOT an indictable offence under any penal code system in the world. But making the tree wither without an axe is a miracle. Having no control over hunger is NOT a crime.

Hindu gods havingno control over their sexual urges and indulging in rape, bestiality, molestation, homosexuality, incest and murder is A BIG CRIME.

It is NOT WORTH following such HINDU gods. You end up being foul mouthed, susceptible to criminal behaviour. First symptom of hate and foul-mouthedness is you will start calling people names.
Hindu supreme Gods doing
1) incest (Brahma)
2) Rape, Molestation (Vishnu and Shiva, Indra
3) Homosexuality (Vishnu and Shiva)
4) Porn viewing (peeping tom Hindu god Krishna)
5) Pimping (Indra, Krishna etc.)
6) Murder (Ram, Krishna, Shiva, Indra and practically every God)
7) Abduction (Krishna, Indra)
8) Ransom(Indra, Krishna
9) Nakedness and lewdness (Shiva)

https://hinduismkisachai.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/sexual-morality

The gospel clearly says that Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
Getting born without a father is NOT a crime of the child. Whether you believe in miracles or not.
Jesus NEVER did any of the above.
Hindu gods DID ALL OF THE ABOVE.

If you need more proof, please do let me know.

why? says:

Ron,

By the way, if you and other mletchas still do NOT understand, all of your quotes from Hindu scriptures are mistranslation, misunderstanding and misinterpretation by other mletchas like yourselves, including those Sikh mletchas, muslim mletchas, and christian mletchas. Still none of the strawman stick to Hinduism or Hindu Gods. Even if you quote thousand times the same lies, they are still lies. I have no need to defend fake propaganda and strawman attacks against Hinduism.

I already gave you an example on strawman attacks (Indra and Ahalya). Yet I knew even before providing the example, that a mlectha like yourself will never agree on correct interpretation as per Hindu scriptures and continue with your propaganda. A mlectha is always filled with hatred for truth as he/she is fully possessed of
kama — lust, krodha — anger, lobh — greed, moha — delusory emotional attachment or temptation, mada or ahankara — pride, hubris, matsarya — envy, jealousy for your god is a demonic being and possesses all mlecthas. A mletcha is born in sin, lives sinful life, speaks sinful lies, thinks always about sinning and dies a sinner and goes to hell.

This is why your churches, mosques etc. are ridden with sexual affairs, pedophiles, homosexuals priests and murderers. When your god himself is born through illicit sexual affair, what else can you expect. 100% of your women end up having pre-marital sex, have children before marriage, marry another guy after getting pregnant with one guy, sleep with another guy after marriage. I have seen this both in arab and western world. Women have no character and men have no character or strength of mind. They sleep with any person the first chance they get. These are characteristic of a prostitute race. This is why Christian and Muslim countries have high rates of rape. In colleges they drug girls drag them to their apartment and rape them. This is common in every western University. Go to bar, get drunk and rape drugged women. How can a person born through prostitution have character. When your god himself is born of prostitution, I cannot expect good from its followers.

The statistical evidence of very high rate of rapes in western countries proves what i say. No matter which religion you mletchas follow, your real nature will NOT leave you and it comes out.

Manu smriti: 10.59. A base-born man either resembles in character his father, or his mother, or both; he can never conceal his real nature.

10.60. Even if a man, born in a great family, sprang from criminal intercourse, he will certainly possess the
faults of his (father), be they small or great.

Jeebus and mletchas fit this description well.

Unlike you, I provide direct quotes from your babble. Here, your god asks for part of looting.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9959#showrashi=true

37The tax to the Lord from the sheep was six hundred and seventy five. לזוַיְהִי הַמֶּכֶס לַיהֹוָה מִן הַצֹּאן שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת חָמֵשׁ וְשִׁבְעִים:
38Thirty six thousand cattle, of which the tax to the Lord was seventy two. לחוְהַבָּקָר שִׁשָּׁה וּשְׁלשִׁים אָלֶף וּמִכְסָם לַיהֹוָה שְׁנַיִם וְשִׁבְעִים:
39Thirty thousand and five hundred donkeys, of which the tax to the Lord was sixty one. לטוַחֲמֹרִים שְׁלשִׁים אֶלֶף וַחֲמֵשׁ מֵאוֹת וּמִכְסָם לַיהֹוָה אֶחָד וְשִׁשִּׁים:
40Sixteen thousand people, of which the tax to the Lord was thirty two people. מוְנֶפֶשׁ אָדָם שִׁשָּׁה עָשָׂר אָלֶף וּמִכְסָם לַיהֹוָה שְׁנַיִם וּשְׁלשִׁים נָפֶשׁ:
41Moses gave the tax which was a gift to the Lord, to Eleazar the kohen, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Why does this demon bible god need slaves, sheeps, donkeys for? What a god this yahway is, collecting tax from looted property after murdering men and taking their wives as sex-slaves…Your demon god is filled with lust for blood, women and looted property.

why? says:

Jesus is sinless and says to flee away from temptation and sin. Jesus is the way, the truth and life.
==============================================================

Ron, Yes, in a mletchas world another mletcha born through illicit pre-marital sexual relationship to an engaged woman is sinless and divine birth. Good is bad and bad is good in your twisted world.

Do you call a man who has illicit sexual relationship with an engaged woman (engaged to another) moral or immoral? Why would God behave like an immoral man making an engaged girl pregnant for none-months and be born through her vagina? A mlectha is always a sinful son of a prostitute, even if you call him a sinless man-god. Truth does not change.

Your man-god could not even bear half-a-days hunger and cursed a fig-tree out of season. How can such a weak man resist temptation for lust, greed, women etc.? Only foolish mletcha who does NOT know what it takes to control one’s mind will think this jeebus is sinless. jeebus is rotting in hell after his punishment on earth dying like a sinful wretch he is and he is a ghost (preta) in hell now.

Ron says:

Hindu gods are bad examples and are partly to blame for the rapes in India
(all Brahma, Vishnu, shiva, Ram, Krishna and Indra, Ganesh are blamed in this article in an Indian Newspaper ) (written by hindus)

@Ra you are right it seems.

http://archives.deccanchronicle.com/130510/commentary-columnists/commentary/roots-rape-india

The belief in these hindu gods are fully to blame for hindus who foul mouth or call people names.

Ron says:

Hindu gods (not followers ) who should be pure and sinless. But they are not. (only Jesus is sinless and did not do any crime or sin)

https://hinduismkisachai.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/sexual-morality

(a) Incest:-
Father-daughter incest occurs in the story of Brahma and his daughter.

Brahma married his own daughter Satarupa.
“Wise, teaching, following the thought of Order, the sonless gained a grandson from his daughter”. Fain, as a sire, to see his child prolific, he sped to meet her with an eager spirit‖.

[RigVeda III .31.1-2]. Hiranyakashpu married his daughter Rohini. Vashista married Shatrupa, Janhu married Janhavi, and Surya married Usha.

(b)Rape
Rape was common. Some examples are Manu-Illa, Surya raped Kunti. Hindu God Vishnu raped Jalandhar‘s wife (Varinda) who later committed suicide. Love-lorn Vishnu did not even let her go after death. He bathed in her ashes, bereaved her death for days and cried loudly.

(c) Sons married their mothers

There are cases where father and son married the same woman; Brahma is the father of Manu. Manu married his mother
Sharadha . Pushan too married his mother.

(d)Marriage with sisters

The discussion of open sex between a brother and sister (Yama and Yami in Rig Veda Mandal X) The description of sexual relationship between Yam and Yami (Brother and sister) is lewd, lascivious, and bawdy. It is a spur to carnality. They did not get married but discussed open sexual relations. From their discussion it is clear that in those days sisters could discuss sexual matters with their brothers and even marry them. Brahma had three sons Marichi, Daksha and Dharma and one daughter. Daksha is stated to have married the daughter of Brahma who was his sister (see Adi Parva of the Mahabharata). Other instances are Purukutsa and Narmada, Viprachiti and Simhika, Nahusa and Viraja, Sukra and Usanas, Amavasu and Go, Amsumat and Yasoda, Suka and Pivari.

Pushan is the lover of his sister Achoda. “Attendant on the Blessed Dame the Blessed one hath come: the Lover followeth his Sister. [Rig Veda X.3.3]

Agni is the lover of his own sister. ―Pūsan, who driveth goats for steeds, the strong and Mighty, who is called His Sister’s lover, will we laud‖.
[Rig Veda VI.55.4] Ashvins were the sons of Savitar and Usha who were brother and sister. Krishna was married with his uncle’s Satrajit’s daughter and Krishna’s son Priduman was married with his matenal uncle Rukmaya’s daughter.

(e) Selling & hiring of women:

There is evidence that the ancient Aryans also sold their women (wives and daughters). When a daughter was sold her marriage was known as Arsha marriage. This was done through Go-Mithuna (giving away one cow and one bull to the girls‘ father as price )― When (the father) gives away his daughter according to the rule, after receiving from the bridegroom, for (the fulfillment of the sacred law, a cow and a bull or two pairs, that is named the Arsha rite”.
(Manu Simrti 3.29)
“Some call the cow and the bull given as on Arsha wedding ‗a gratuity‘ but that is wrong. The acceptance of the fee great or small is a sale of the daughter.” (Manu II)

Women were also rented to others for cohabitation. In the Mahabharata we read that Madhavi was the daughter of King Yayati. Yayati made a gift of her to Galwa Rishi. Galwa rented her out to three kings one after the other. After the third, Madhavi was returned to Galwa. She was now given by Galwa to his Guru Vishvamitra. Vishvamitra kept her till he begot a son. After this he returned her to her father.

(f) Niyoga – mistreatment of women

Niyoga is the Aryan name for a system under which a wedded woman was legally permitted to beget a son from another person, not her husband. There was no limit to the number of men a woman could go for Niyoga. Madhuti and Ambika had one Niyoga each. Saradandayani had three. Vayusistasva was permitted to have 7 and Vali is known to have allowed as many as 17 Niyogas to one of his wives. With the consent of the husband a Niyoga could last from one night to twelve years or more. Jatila-Gautami had 7 husbands. In The Mahabharata Daropadi had five husbands and Pandu allowed his wife Kunti to have four Niyogas. Karna was the premarital first born brother of the Pandus through Nyoga.

Abduction and disrobing of women in public is evident in the Mahabharta. Daropadi was disrobed in front of her near relatives.

In Shiv Puran Ruder Samhita (4.12) we read that Hindu god Shiva ran after the wives of the Rishis completely naked. On account of this indecency he had to lose his male organ.

In the temples at Jagan Nath, Konark, and Bhuneshwar of Orissa there are statues of naked women in very objectionable poses.

why? says:

Ron says:
================================
This story is mentioned many times and it is acknowledged as rape both in Ramayana and Mahabaratha.
Our friend why as usual denied it and did not offer any explanation as mentioned above. Why’s explanation is below. It is pure denial, spin to support his evil intentions as he is full of hate towards anything non-Hindu specially Christ.
=========================================

Ron, whether you call it spin or denial is irrelevant to me. We know our religion well and I know better not cast pearls before swines. Again all you have is strawman arguments.

I do not care what you Hindu hating pile of garbage mletchas born out of prostitutes believe about Hinduism. This goes well for Ra, the mletcha prostitute son as well.

Ra, get used to the truth mletcha. Now read your own scriptures.

Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

Sexual slavery and rape of pre-pubescent girls (Numbers 31:17-18)

More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.”

Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.

Ron says:

I came to this site to know more about the evil in Islam and found in Jesus a person who has very high morals, ideals, views, compassion and teachings. Jesus cannot be indicted (unlike Krishna, Ram, mohammed etc who can be indicted for murder, manslaughter, rape, robbery, kidnapping, molesting, pedophilia etc) for anything under the present penal code system of any country.

I knew little about Hinduism and the extreme evil in it.

It is only when bully’s like ‘why’ and others started debating that is when I started searching and found such evil in hinduism which cannot be justified by any reason. There is too much of evidence and so much from hindu sources themselves.

It is like Muslims who are in denial what the quran and the hadith says.

This one agrees about sex and lust by hindu gods.

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/essays/sex-and-gurus.asp

Ra says:

Gee, I used to think there was some wisdom in Hinduism. Now, after reading the comments in this forum and the links (exposing Hinduism, and others) and the comments of Why?, that born-in-a-toilet Hindu, I realize that Hinduism with its caste system is nothing but a pile of shit.

Ron says:

These gods were created?
(from hindu sources)
http://www.speakingtree.in/spiritual-blogs/seekers/god-and-i/parents-of-brahma-vishnu-mahesh-189183
(Birth of Vishnu, Brahma and Shiv from

Kaal-Brahm and Durga)

In its evidence in holy Shri Shiv Puran, published from Gita

Press Gorakhpur, translator Shri Hanuman Prasad Poddar, Adhyay

6 Rudra Sanhita on page no. 100, it is said that ParBrahm, who is

without a bodily form, God SadaShiv is his bodily form only. A Shakti

came out of his body. That Shakti became known as Ambika, Prakriti

(Durga), Tridev Janni/Mother of the three (the mother who gives

birth to Shri Brahma Ji, Shri Vishnu Ji and Shri Shiv Ji), who has

eight arms. He, who is SadaShiv, is also called Shiv, Shambhu and

Maheshwar. (On page no. 101) He smears ash on all of his body

parts. That Kaal-form Brahm built an area named Shivlok. Then

they both behaved like husband-wife; as a result of which, a son was

born. They kept his name Vishnu (on page no. 102).

Then in Rudra Sanhita Adhyay no. 7, on page no. 103, Brahma

Ji said that even I was born from the union, i.e. by the act of

husband-wife, of God SadaShiv (Brahm-Kaal) and Prakriti (Durga).

Then I was made unconscious.

Then in Rudra Sanhita, Adhyay no. 9, on page no. 110, it has

been said that — In this way Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra, these three

Gods have gunas (qualities), but Shiv (Kaal-Brahm) has been

considered to be beyond the gunas.

Important: Here four have been proved; which means, they have

originated from SadaShiv (Kaal-Brahm) and Prakriti (Durga) only.

The mother of the three gods (Shri Brahma Ji, Shri Vishnu Ji and

Shri Shiv Ji) is Shri Durga Ji and father is Shri Jyoti Niranjan

(Brahm). These three gods only are Rajgun-Brahma Ji,

Satgun-Vishnu Ji and Tamgun-Shiv Ji.

Sakat says:

Having understood suffering and its origin, the future Buddha
then faced the next question: how can suffering be brought to an
end? By remembering the law of kamma, of cause and effect: “If
this exists, that occurs; that arises from the arising of this. If this
does not exist, that does not occur; that ceases from the ceasing of
this.”

Nothing happens without a cause. If the cause is eradicated,
there will be no effect. In this way, the process of the arising of
suffering can be reversed:
If ignorance is eradicated and completely ceases, reaction ceases;
if reaction ceases, consciousness ceases;
if consciousness ceases, mind-and-matter cease;
if mind-and-matter ceases, the six senses cease;
if the six senses cease, contact ceases;
if contact ceases, sensation ceases;
if sensation ceases, craving and aversion cease;
if craving and aversion cease, attachment ceases;
if attachment ceases, the process of becoming ceases;
if the process of becoming ceases, birth ceases;
if birth ceases, decay and death cease, together with sorrow,
lamentation, physical and mental suffering and tribulations.
Thus this entire mass of suffering ceases.

If we put an end to ignorance, then there will be no blind
reactions that bring in their wake all manner of suffering. And if
there is no more suffering, then we shall experience real peace, real
happiness. The wheel of suffering can change into the wheel of
liberation.
This is what Siddhattha Gotama did in order to achieve
enlightenment. This is what he taught others to do. He said,
By yourself committing wrong
you defile yourself.
By yourself not doing wrong
you purify yourself.

We are each responsible for the reactions that cause our suffering.
By accepting our responsibility we can learn how to eliminate suffering.

why? says:

Ron,

One piece of advice. No matter how many anti-Hindu websites you quote about Hindu Gods this and that, it is NOT going to affect me the least. You know why. I know the true essence of these stories and that your idiotic allegations on Hindu Gods are false. So do not waste my time. None of it stick to Hinduism as every allegation about Hinduism is nothing but strawman and based on complete wrong understanding.

It would be better for you to think why an almighty God would make 12 year old engaged Mary (engaged to Joseph) pregnant and then born through her vagina after nine months? Do you think this really makes sense to you? Do you think it is moral for a man to make another man’s engaged woman pregnant?

why? says:

Ra
July 22, 2015 at 1:28 pm

@why?, You are an Untouchable because you are born in a toilet while your mother was performing her caste duty to clean it. You nigis kaka
================================================

Ra, no matter how much you abuse me or my family, you know I am talking truth when I say you are a mletcha, son of a prostitute. I feel sorry for you mletcha. You know how much mletchas are worse than the untouchables? Figure it out.

Phoenix says:

I agree with Steve somewhat.Most rapes are not inspired by religious teachings.Such reported incidences are practically unheard of,with the exception of Islam.Religious rape can be defined as “committing rape to spread a particular ideology”.Boko Haram et al are notorious for the forced conversions of kidnapped women and forcing them into sex slavery.They are on record quoting the Quran for support.

Following Ali Sina says:

What the heck happened to you Sina? You really became delusional. 🙂
High dose of too much logic and argument for long time (and 24X7) can make people sick. Take a break and get well soon.

Ron says:

Thank you Phoenix for your link.
Many sites are giving the same translation of the evil and satanic verses in the vedas and manu’s laws. So there seems to be no mis-translation of the vedic verses as alleged by why.

http://www.ambedkartimes.com/hari_narke.htm
That is the reason why Dr Ambedkar and his followers have a day dedicated to burn Hindu Scripture-Manu Smriti.
Dr Ambedkar’s quotes

It is mischievously propagated by Hindu scriptures that by serving the upper classes the Shudras achieve salvation. Untouchability is another appellation of slavery. No race can be raised by destroying its self-respect. So if you really want to uplift the Untouchables, you must treat them in the social order as free citizens, free to carve out their destiny.

Some people think that religion is not essential to the society. I do not hold this view. I consider the foundations of religion are essential to the society. At the roots of Hindu social system lies a Dharma as prescribed in the Manusmriti. Such being the case I do not think it is possible to abolish the inequality in the Hindu society unless foundations of the Smriti-religion is removed and a better one laid in its place. I however, despair of Hindu society, being able to reconstruct itself on such a better foundation.

Negatively I reject the Hindu social philosophy propounded in Bhagvad Gita, based as it is on the Triguna of Sankhya Philosophy which in my judgement is a cruel perversion of the philosophy of Kapila, and which had made the caste system of graded inequality the law of Hindu social life.

Caste cannot be abolished by inter caste dinners or stray instances of inter caste marriages. Caste is a state of mind. It is a disease of mind. The teachings of the Hindu religion are the root cause of this disease. We practice casteism and we observe Untouchability because we are enjoined to do so by the Hindu religion. A bitter thing cannot be made sweet. The taste of anything can be changed. But poison cannot be changed into nectar.

I shall have no faith in Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh nor shall I worship them.
I shall have no faith in Rama and Krishna who are believed to be incarnation of God nor shall I worship them.
I shall have no faith in ‘Gauri’, Ganapati and other gods and goddesses of Hindus nor shall I worship them.

I renounce Hinduism which is harmful for humanity and impedes the advancement and development of humanity because it is based on inequality, and adopt Buddhism as my religion.

Ron says:

The lust of Hindu Gods (they are supposed to be perfect)

http://www.speakingtree.in/spiritual-blogs/seekers/god-and-i/lust-of-gods-in-hinduism-the-story-of-ahalya

I don’t know how why is on denial for every evidence shown.

why? says:

Here is what demonic bible god says in OT.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

Sexual slavery and rape of pre-pubescent girls (Numbers 31:17-18)

More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.”

Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.

why? says:

Ron Says:
==========================================
This great Hindu scholar Ravishankar says homosexuality was even practiced by Hindu gods and one hindu god was product of homosexuality and homosexuality was not a crime!!!
=================================================
Manu Smriti

11.174. A twice-born man who commits an unnatural offence with a male, or has intercourse with a female in a
cart drawn by oxen, in water, or in the day-time, shall bathe, dressed in his clothes.

The Narada-smriti specifically states that homosexuals (mukhebhaga, sevyaka, etc.) are incurable and unfit for marriage to the opposite sex.

Vedic texts reiterate that women should not be married to third-gender men and that wives should leave such husbands. The same is true for men married to third-gender women. The Artha Shasta nullifies such marriages, returns the dowry and imposes fines whenever a spouse is thus deceived. (Baudhayana Dharmasutra 2.3.17, 27, Artha Shastra 3.15.12-15)

8.369. A damsel who pollutes (another) damsel must be fined two hundred (panas), pay the double of her
(nuptial) fee, and receive ten (lashes with a) rod.

8.370. But a woman who pollutes a damsel shall instantly have (her head) shaved or two fingers cut off, and be
made to ride (through the town) on a donkey.

This is proof enough to show that homosexuality is NOT encouraged in Hinduism. Ravishankar is NO scholar at all. He is a yoga teacher who got too famous. The guy does NOT know as much as me about Hindu scriptures.

Now, this so called god Ayyappa wrshipped in Kerala (NOT found in any Hindus scripture) is a modern invention. The word “Ayyappa” is NOT even Sanskrit word. So Hinuduism cannot be blamed for modern day inventions.

why? says:

Ra says:
=====================================================
@why, There are millions of untouchables like yourself in India. It’s impossible to count you all. You are like cockroaches. Ya metnak.
==========================================

Your language shows your dirty birth Ra. I was right you are a mletcha, son of a prostitute. Only prostitute’s son will learn such language from his mother.

Sakat says:

And what causes these reactions? Observing at the deepest level
of reality, he understood that reaction occurs because of
ignorance.We are unaware of the fact that we react,
and unaware of the real nature of what we react to. We are ignorant of the impermanent, impersonal nature of our existence and ignorant that attachment to it
brings nothing but suffering. Not knowing our real nature, we react
blindly. Not even knowing that we have reacted, we persist in our
blind reactions and allow them to intensify. Thus we become
imprisoned in the habit of reacting, because of ignorance.
This is how the Wheel of Suffering starts turning:

If ignorance arises, reaction occurs;
if reaction arises, consciousness occurs;
if consciousness arises, mind-and-matter occur;
if mind-and-matter arise, the six senses occur;
if the six senses arise, contact occurs;
if contact arises, sensation occurs;
if sensation arises, craving and aversion occur;
if craving and aversion arise, attachment occurs;
if attachment arises, the process of becoming occurs;
if the process of becoming arises, birth occurs;
if birth arises, decay and death occur, together with sorrow,
lamentation, physical and mental suffering,
and tribulations.
Thus arises this entire mass of suffering.

By this chain of cause and effect—conditioned arising—we have
been brought into our present state of existence and face a future of
suffering.
At last the truth was clear to him: suffering begins with ignorance
about the reality of our true nature, about the phenomenon labelled
“I”. And the next cause of suffering is “saṅkhara” the mental habit of
reaction. Blinded by ignorance, we generate reactions of craving and
aversion, which develop into attachment, leading to all types of
unhappiness. The habit of reacting is the kamma, the shaper of our
future. And the reaction arises only because of ignorance about our
real nature. Ignorance, craving, and aversion are the three roots from
which grow all our sufferings in life.

Ra says:

@why, There are millions of untouchables like yourself in India. It’s impossible to count you all. You are like cockroaches. Ya metnak.
https://youtu.be/LD3HrIRPVhw

Ron says:

India is now the world’s slave capital: Global Slavery Index 2014
Kounteya
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-is-now-the-worlds-slave-capital-Global-Slavery-Index-2014/articleshow/45178623.cms

why? says:

Ron,

Slavery and sexual slavery exists in USA even today.

money.cnn.com/2014/10/21/pf/labor-trafficking/

They work on U.S. construction sites and farms, in restaurants and hotels, even in homes.

Foreign workers, lured by false promises of good jobs in America, soon find themselves enslaved in plain sight as victims of labor trafficking, according to a new report published by the nonpartisan Urban Institute and Northeastern University.

money.cnn.com/2014/03/12/news/economy/underground-sex-economy/index.html?iid=EL

Inside the underground sex economy

a study released Wednesday by the Urban Institute’s Justice Policy Center analyzes the size and structure of the underground commercial sex economies in eight major cities: San Diego, Seattle, Dallas, Denver, Washington, D.C., Miami, Atlanta and Kansas City, Missouri.

Researchers interviewed pimps, traffickers, sex workers and child pornography offenders, as well as local and federal law enforcement officers.

The way in: Often pimps and prostitutes get into the business because they had a relative who worked in it or a friend who encouraged them. Neighborhood influence, poor job prospects and childhood trauma also played a role.

Coercion: It’s often assumed that sex workers are physically coerced to work for and stay with a pimp. But researchers found that psychological manipulation played a major role, too — whether it was the promise of attention from the pimp or more tangible incentives.

Ron says:

Thank you Phoenix for your link.
Many sites are giving the same translation of the evil and satanic verses in the vedas and manu’s laws. So there seems to be no mis-translation of the vedic verses as alleged by why.
It is worst type of discrimination, see here.

http://www.ambedkartimes.com/hari_narke.htm
That is the reason why Dr Ambedkar and his followers have a day dedicated to burn Hindu Scripture-Manu Smriti.

http://nirmukta.com/2011/08/27/the-status-of-women-as-depicted-by-manu-in-the-manusmriti/
also see here

Dr Ambedkar’s quotes

It is mischievously propagated by Hindu scriptures that by serving the upper classes the Shudras achieve salvation. Untouchability is another appellation of slavery. No race can be raised by destroying its self-respect. So if you really want to uplift the Untouchables, you must treat them in the social order as free citizens, free to carve out their destiny.

Some people think that religion is not essential to the society. I do not hold this view. I consider the foundations of religion are essential to the society. At the roots of Hindu social system lies a Dharma as prescribed in the Manusmriti. Such being the case I do not think it is possible to abolish the inequality in the Hindu society unless foundations of the Smriti-religion is removed and a better one laid in its place. I however, despair of Hindu society, being able to reconstruct itself on such a better foundation.

Negatively I reject the Hindu social philosophy propounded in Bhagvad Gita, based as it is on the Triguna of Sankhya Philosophy which in my judgement is a cruel perversion of the philosophy of Kapila, and which had made the caste system of graded inequality the law of Hindu social life.

Caste cannot be abolished by inter caste dinners or stray instances of inter caste marriages. Caste is a state of mind. It is a disease of mind. The teachings of the Hindu religion are the root cause of this disease. We practice casteism and we observe Untouchability because we are enjoined to do so by the Hindu religion. A bitter thing cannot be made sweet. The taste of anything can be changed. But poison cannot be changed into nectar.

I shall have no faith in Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh nor shall I worship them.

I shall have no faith in Rama and Krishna who are believed to be incarnation of God nor shall I worship them.

I shall have no faith in ‘Gauri’, Ganapati and other gods and goddesses of Hindus nor shall I worship them.

I renounce Hinduism which is harmful for humanity and impedes the advancement and development of humanity because it is based on inequality, and adopt Buddhism as my religion.

why? says:

Ron says:
===========================================
That’s the number of rapes reported.

Ninety percent of the rape cases in India go unreported. Of every 10 women raped in India, nine are afraid to speak up against their perpetrators or do not have access to the social media.
============================================

Now this is what I call as “extrapolation based on guesswork and hunches”.

This extrapolation is NOT reported by NRCB, but by the website girlsglobe.org…..They are NOT qualified to report on statistics. It is based on a hunch and guesswork.

Now if you want to know about unreported cases in USA, check the following website. Unlike you, I do NOT provide random websites but your own justice department gives that on an average 68% of rape cases in USA are NOT reported. This means only 1/3 of rape cases are reported in USA. This implies the actual rape rate in USA is 82 per 100,000, while for India even if we assume 90 % not being reported, it is only 1.8*10 = 18 per 100,000 for India. This is still much lower than the rape rates in westernized christian countries that includes USA. Even using the extrapolation of 90 % for India, still USA with 1/3rd population of India has 4 times rape rate as compared to India. Clearly moraLity is lacking for christian countries more than the Hindu India.

https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

Sexual assault is one of the most under reported crimes, with 68% still being left unreported.1

Why Will Only 2 Out of Every 100 Rapists Serve Time?

The majority of sexual assault are not reported to the police (an average of 68% of assaults in the last five years were not reported).1 Those rapists, of course, will never spend a day in prison. But even when the crime is reported, it is unlike to lead to an arrest and prosecution. Factoring in unreported rapes, only about 2% of rapists will ever serve a day in prison.

References

Justice Department, National Crime Victimization Survey: 2008-2012
FBI, Uniform Crime Reports, Arrest Data: 2006-2010
FBI, Uniform Crime Reports, Offenses Cleared Data: 2006-2010
Department of Justice, Felony Defendents in Large Urban Counties: 2009
Department of Justice, Felony Defendents in Large Urban Counties: 2009

So even assuming your imaginary statistics in India,

Ra says:

@why?, These Indian woman are ashamed to report their rape to the police. Just like you are ashamed to say that you are an untouchable.

steve says:

Ra you said “Those Vedic verses are really satanic verses. They contain so much hatred toward women. This is why so many women are gang raped in India.” The idea that men rape because of religious scriptures is nonsense. sexual attitudes are deeply biologically engrained. “A former Boy Scout, with movie star looks and charm to match crisscrossed the country in search of prey. 30 young girls and women aged 13-26 were raped and murdered before cops finally collared Ted Bundy.”. Sure their will be some environmental influences but the bottom line is I think you will have very limited success trying to educate a sexual predator out of their sexuality.

Sakat says:

What causes attachment? How does it arise? Analyzing his own
nature, the future Buddha found that it develops because of the
momentary mental reactions of liking and disliking. The brief,
unconscious reactions of the mind are repeated and intensified
moment after moment, growing into powerful attractions and
repulsions, into all our attachments. Attachment is merely the
developed form of the fleeting reaction. This is the immediate cause
of suffering.

What causes reactions of liking and disliking? Looking deeper he
saw that they occur because of sensation. We feel a pleasant
sensation and start liking it; we feel an unpleasant sensation and
start disliking it.Now why these sensations? What causes them? Examining still
further within himself he saw that they arise because of contact:
contact of the eye with a vision, contact of the ear with a sound,
contact of the nose with an odor, contact of the tongue with a taste,
contact of the body with something tangible, contact of the mind
with any thought, emotion, idea, imagination, or memory. Through
the five physical senses and the mind we experience the world.
Whenever an object or phenomenon contacts any of these six bases
of experience, a sensation is produced, pleasant or unpleasant.

continued……..

Ron says:

This is an article in Hindu newspaper.
It highlights this point.
If you tweak your own figures with this figures by including unreported crime given by your own newspaper and own government then India is on top in crime.

“Against one reported rape case, there are at least 30 cases which go unreported”
Why do you have to defend crime or twist crime reporting?

Majority of rape cases go unreported: MPs

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-newdelhi/majority-of-rape-cases-go-unreported-mps/article5063089.ece

why? says:

Look at the rape statistics all over the world. The western and Christian nations tops the list per 100,000 people. Even the raw numbers of rape in India dwarfs in comparison to number of rapes committed in USA.

This shows which civilization (Hindu/Buddhist vs christian) treats its women better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

Adjusted for population growth over time, the annual rape rate in India has increased from 1.9 to 2.0 per 100,000 people over 2008-2012 period. This compares to a reported rape rate of 1.2 per 100,000 in Japan, 3.6 per 100,000 in Morocco, 4.6 rapes per 100,000 in Bahrain, 12.3 per 100,000 in Mexico, 24.1 per 100,000 in United Kingdom, 28.6 per 100,000 in United States, 66.5 per 100,000 in Sweden, and world’s highest rate of 114.9 rapes per 100,000 in South Africa.

http://www.more.com/news/india-rape-capital-world

Is India the Rape Capital of the World?

We’re horrified by news reports of rape in India and feel lucky we don’t live there. But the country with the highest rate of sexual assault isn’t India—it’s us

by Sally Kohn

In India, a country of over 1.2 billion people, 24,206 rapes were reported in 2011. The same year in the United States, a nation of 300 million, 83,425 rapes were reported. In the United States, every 6.2 minutes a woman is raped.

why? says:

Ra says: @why?, Unfortunately, my friend, these Hindu verses are inciting men to treat women like dirt. Your real challenge is not to convince me otherwise but rather to convince men in India that they misunderstand them and that their real meaning is to treat women with respect.
===========================================================

You are one dumbass Ra. What makes you think those Hindu verses incite men in India. Most Hindu men (99.99 %) in India do not even know such verses exist and I am saying this with 100 % certainty. Did you even visit India once to see how Indian men treat their women?

Stupid fellow, seeing 1 in million crimes committed in India, you idiots think this is the norm in India.

Sakat says:

There are several types of attachment. First there is the
attachment to the habit of seeking sensual gratification. An
addict takes a drug because he wishes to experience the pleasurable
sensation that the drug produces in him, even though he knows that
by taking the drug he reinforces his addiction. In the same way we
are addicted to the condition of craving. As soon as one desire is
satisfied, we generate another. The object is secondary; the fact is
that we seek to maintain the state of craving continually, because
this very craving produces in us a pleasurable sensation that we wish
to prolong. Craving becomes a habit that we cannot break, an
addiction. And just as an addict gradually develops tolerance
towards his chosen drug and requires ever larger doses in order to
achieve intoxication, our cravings steadily become stronger the
more we seek to fulfill them. In this way we can never come to the
end of craving. And so long as we crave, we can never be happy.
Another great attachment is to the “I,” the ego, the image we
have of ourselves. For each of us, the “I” is the most important
person in the world. We behave like a magnet surrounded by iron
filings: it will automatically arrange the filings in a pattern centered
on itself, and with just as little reflection we all instinctively try to
arrange the world according to our liking, seeking to attract the
pleasant and to repel the unpleasant. But none of us is alone in the
world; one “I” is bound to come into conflict with another. The
pattern each seeks to create is disturbed by the magnetic fields of
others, and we ourselves become subject to attraction or repulsion.
The result can only be unhappiness, suffering.Nor do we limit attachment to the “I”: we extend it to “mine,” whatever belongs to us. We each develop great attachment to what we possess, because it is associated with us, it supports the image of “I.” This attachment would cause no problem if what one called
“mine” were eternal, and the “I” remained to enjoy it eternally. But
the fact is that sooner or later the “I” is separated from the “mine.”
The parting time is bound to come. When it arrives, the greater the
clinging to “mine,” the greater the suffering will be.

continued…..

why? says:

Ra says:
================
Those Vedic verses are really satanic verses. They contain so much hatred toward women. This is why so many women are gang raped in India.
=====================================================================

Again, those Vedic verses (whichever) you are referring to have NO rape at all. They are all misinterpretation and mistranslations and misunderstandings. It is very easy to show that. Bring one and I will show you there is NO rape there at all, like your demonic bible verses.

Phoenix says:

You cannot defend against strawman attacks. Most of the verses quoted are mistranslated and/or misinterpreted, especially the Vedic verses and ones from Mahabharatha.
It will take a whole website to correctly interpret each and every verse quoted there. None of them talk about obtaining sex-slaves like your barbaric OT.//

I seriously doubt those texts are mistranslated.They are used by virtually every hindu website.The Mahabharata is translated by an indian,why would he malign his brethren with fake translations?
Manu is a Hindu Law book,ie. it prescribes permissible and unlawful codes of conduct.Slavery is among the ethical and social norms that is stipulated in that book.And you are correct,the OT does talk about obtaining sex-slaves.I do not dispute that.

BTW,your use of the term strawman is incorrect.I did not misrepresent your argument by setting up an unrelated proposition with the sole intent of tearing it down.My comments were directed at Ron.

Ron says:

@Ra
Are you referring to the verses through the link by Phoenix mentioned below?

//Click here for passages from hindu texts that resemble the very passages from the OT which he despises so much.Ask him why he has failed to mention these verses? //

http://nastikasmission.blogspot.com/2011/01/exposing-hinduism.html

Sakat says:

The truth of suffering,” the Buddha said, “must be
explored to its end.” On the night that he was to attain enlightenment, he sat down with the determination not to rise until he had understood how suffering originates and how it can be eradicated.
Clearly, he saw, suffering exists. This is an inescapable fact, no
matter how unpalatable it may be. Suffering begins with the
beginning of life. We have no conscious recollection of existence
within the confines of the womb, but the common experience is that
we emerge from it crying. Birth is a great trauma.
Having started life, we are all bound to encounter the sufferings
of sickness and old age. Yet no matter how sick we may be, no
matter how decayed and decrepit, none of us wants to die, because
death is a great misery.
Every living creature must face all these sufferings. And as we
pass through life, we are bound to encounter other sufferings,
various types of physical or mental pain. We become involved with
the unpleasant and separated from the pleasant. We fail to get what
we want; instead we get what we do not want. All these situations
are suffering.
These instances of suffering are readily apparent to anyone who
thinks about it deeply. But the future Buddha was not to be satisfied with the limited explanations of the intellect. He continued probing within himself to experience the real nature of suffering, and he found that “attachment to the five aggregates is suffering.”

At a very deep level, suffering is the inordinate attachment that each one
of us has developed toward this body and toward this mind, with its
cognition’s, perceptions, sensations, and reactions. People cling
strongly to their identity—their mental and physical being—when
actually there are only evolving processes. This clinging to an unreal
idea of oneself, to something that in fact is constantly changing, is
suffering.

continued……

A.H. says:

“why and kamose5 […] are full of hate of Christ, Christians and non-Hindus.”

Why are these men so frustrated?

A matter of civilisation(s)?

Ron says:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nawWZYhUWBA

This is on hindu culture by Arundhati Roya (Booker prize winner and famous author)

why? says:

But Khajuraho is showing bestiality and orgies which was the allowed culture in India (according to Govt guides. You may spin it anyway you want but what official tour guides say is always considered facts). If you see virtue in this culture then your understanding is flawed and your moral compass is not functioning.
=======================================

Just because Khajuraho shows it does NOT imply Hinduism authorizes it.

Manu XI:174. A man who has committed a bestial crime, or has had intercourse in water, or with a menstruating woman, shall perform a Samtapana Krikkhra.

11.176. An exceedingly corrupt wife let her husband confine to one apartment, and compel her to perform the
penance which is prescribed for males in cases of adultery.

11.177. If, being solicited by a man (of) equal (caste), she (afterwards) is again unfaithful, then a Krikkhra and a
lunar penance are prescribed as the means of purifying her.

11.178. The sin which a twice-born man commits by dallying one night with a Vrishali, he removes in three
years, by subsisting on alms and daily muttering (sacred texts).

These verses show that orthodox Hinduism do NOT authorize orgies or adultery.

Ron says:

@why and kamose5. Apartheid in India by Hindus even today!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKZxAAAiJdg
If you want Vedas and Laws of Manu laws links then do let me know.

Ron says:

There is systematic denial of religious apartheid by why and kamose5 as they are full of hate of Christ, Christians and non-Hindus.

If you read a bit of European history you will know that barbarism, pillaging and tribal infighting was rampant in Europe. When the whole continent did become Christian it did decrease. It increased after the Reformation but most wars were political in nature. The pre-Christian culture and the Viking culture in Europe was barbaric and nothing to glorify.

It was Christian forces which stopped Islam as it spread across the globe. Islam defeated the pagans (Hindus) easily. It was the British who defeated the Mughals, the Nawabs, Nizams and Sultans and did save India.

@kamose5 . What Christians churched are depicting in their churches are be depictions of hell (hell fire, gnashing and gnarling) for sinners and not glorifying anything.

But Khajuraho is showing bestiality and orgies which was the allowed culture in India (according to Govt guides. You may spin it anyway you want but what official tour guides say is always considered facts). If you see virtue in this culture then your understanding is flawed and your moral compass is not functioning.

@Why and kamose5. When you are blinded by extreme hate towards Christ, Christians and other non-Hindus you will not see the fault and deny existence or even justify of these evils in Hinduism which is happening even NOW .
@why and kamose5. Temple Prostitutes in India today http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/prostitutes-of-god-2082290.html ( it is not pure lies. This is by independent journalists. If you want proof by Indian Hindu journalists then please let me know)

@why and kamose5. Apartheid in India by Hindus. see the video here.
If you want links to Vedas and Manu laws supporting it then do let me know.

@kamose5 War conventions were started by Christians when there was nothing present in any part of the world. War is bad but it did bring a little sanity when none was present. Child soldiers were used in many parts of the world including Asia but the point, I am making is Christians stopped it first.

@kamose5. When I made the below statement, on why Christ is different is because they are all collectively and individually true. But you are applying it separately , to explain a bit further.

I don’t know much about Zarathustra, Guru Nanak, Mahavira and do believe that they never killed anybody much as many individuals who have never harmed anybody. But what makes Christ different is his divinity claims, teachings, practices ,miracles, sacrifice, resurrection and power in his name even today.

Jesus said forgive others unconditionally.
and
2) Jesus said Bless those who curse you. Bless your enemies
and
3) Jesus said Don’t return evil for evil but return good for evil.
and
4) Others showed a way to god but Jesus said I am God
and
5) Jesus did miracles others did not
and
6) Jesus’s tomb is empty others have a tomb
and
7) Jesus birth was divine

Other teachers do not make or appear to make the above claims (whether it is true or not is another debate)

You may debate forever about his divinity, virgin birth and miracles and you may consider Jesus, his miracles and divination as a grand conspiracy on a large scale.

Please see the video below by Dr Ravi (Jesus among other Gods)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0QM-DaOZtM

@kamose5 . Torture has been used by all armies all ways and the Hindu kings were no different. Elephants trampling the heads was routinely practiced by Hindu kings.
In fact it may SURPRISE you that India has STILL NOT RATIFIED the UN treaty against torture. So while others have moved forward to stop torture, Hindus have not.

@kamose5 Christianity was well received by the Europeans and they left Zeus and Thor and other pagan religions for Jesus. Europeans at least had the brains to know that Zeus and Thor and paganism was wrong. Prosperity, industrial and technological revolution, advancement in science and progress came to the West even as Christianity spread through entire Europe. Before the advent of Christianity in Europe it was below in scientific progress compare to even Arabia and Asia. But after the advent of Christianity they progressed leaps and bounds but Arabia, Asia and Africa lagged behind.

See North and South Korea. As Christianity grows in South Korea it progressed more compared to North Korea and even compared to India. South Korea had a weaker currency and smaller per capita income than India in 1953 and underwent one of the worst wars since WW2 and is still in a state of war despite an uneasy armistice but after getting Christianized it has outpaced India in per capita income, currency strength, industrialization and exports, quality of life etc.

I do consider Indians as intelligent and hardworking but do believe that few of them are either thrilled persecuting Christ and Christians or finding it difficult to let go of their bigoted mindsets filled with hate and bigotry towards non-Hindus and anything Western.

Religious persecution is growing in India at a high rate and according to Pew Forum on Religion the highest persecuted Religion in the world is Christianity.

If any of you want to remove this hate in your heart then you have to try out Christ and if he does not answer you may continue on your path of hate.

Ron says:

There is systematic denial of religious apartheid by why and kamose5 as they are full of hate of Christ, Christians and non-Hindus.

If you read a bit of European history you will know that barbarism, pillaging and tribal infighting was rampant in Europe. When the whole continent did become Christian it did decrease. It increased after the Reformation but most wars were political in nature. The pre-Christian culture and the Viking culture in Europe was barbaric and nothing to glorify.

It was Christian forces which stopped Islam as it spread across the globe. Islam defeated the pagans (Hindus) easily. It was the British who defeated the Mughals, the Nawabs, Nizams and Sultans and did save India.

@kamose5 . What Christians churched are depicting in their churches are be depictions of hell (hell fire, gnashing and gnarling) for sinners and not glorifying anything.

But Khajuraho is showing bestiality and orgies which was the allowed culture in India (according to Govt guides. You may spin it anyway you want but what official tour guides say is always considered facts). If you see virtue in this culture then your understanding is flawed and your moral compass is not functioning.

@Why and kamose5. When you are blinded by extreme hate towards Christ, Christians and other non-Hindus you will not see the fault and deny existence or even justify of these evils in Hinduism which is happening even NOW .
@why and kamose5. Temple Prostitutes in India today http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/ prostitutes-of-god-2082290.html ( it is not pure lies. This is by independent journalists. If you want proof by Indian Hindu journalists then please let me know)

@why and kamose5. Apartheid in India by Hindus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKZxAAAiJdg
If you want links to Vedas and Manu laws supporting it then do let me know.

@kamose5 War conventions were started by Christians when there was nothing present in any part of the world. War is bad but it did bring a little sanity when none was present. Child soldiers were used in many parts of the world including Asia but the point, I am making is Christians stopped it first.

@kamose5. When I made the below statement, on why Christ is different is because they are all collectively and individually true. But you are applying it separately , to explain a bit further.

I don’t know much about Zarathustra, Guru Nanak, Mahavira and do believe that they never killed anybody much as many individuals who have never harmed anybody. But what makes Christ different is his divinity claims, teachings, practices ,miracles, sacrifice, resurrection and power in his name even today.

Jesus said forgive others unconditionally.
and
2) Jesus said Bless those who curse you. Bless your enemies
and
3) Jesus said Don’t return evil for evil but return good for evil.
and
4) Others showed a way to god but Jesus said I am God
and
5) Jesus did miracles others did not
and
6) Jesus’s tomb is empty others have a tomb
and
7) Jesus birth was divine

Other teachers do not make or appear to make the above claims (whether it is true or not is another debate)

You may debate forever about his divinity, virgin birth and miracles and you may consider Jesus, his miracles and divination as a grand conspiracy on a large scale.

Please see the video below by Dr Ravi (Jesus among other Gods)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0QM-DaOZtM

@kamose5 . Torture has been used by all armies all ways and the Hindu kings were no different. Elephants trampling the heads was routinely practiced by Hindu kings.
In fact it may SURPRISE you that India has STILL NOT RATIFIED the UN treaty against torture. So while others have moved forward to stop torture, Hindus have not.

@kamose5 Christianity was well received by the Europeans and they left Zeus and Thor and other pagan religions for Jesus. Europeans at least had the brains to know that Zeus and Thor and paganism was wrong. Prosperity, industrial and technological revolution, advancement in science and progress came to the West even as Christianity spread through entire Europe. Before the advent of Christianity in Europe it was below in scientific progress compare to even Arabia and Asia. But after the advent of Christianity they progressed leaps and bounds but Arabia, Asia and Africa lagged behind.

See North and South Korea. As Christianity grows in South Korea it progressed more compared to North Korea and even compared to India. South Korea had a weaker currency and smaller per capita income than India in 1953 and underwent one of the worst wars since WW2 and is still in a state of war despite an uneasy armistice but after getting Christianized it has outpaced India in per capita income, currency strength, industrialization and exports, quality of life etc.

I do consider Indians as intelligent and hardworking but do believe that few of them are either thrilled persecuting Christ and Christians or finding it difficult to let go of their bigoted mindsets filled with hate and bigotry towards non-Hindus and anything Western.

Religious persecution is growing in India at a high rate and according to Pew Forum on Religion the highest persecuted Religion in the world is Christianity.

If any of you want to remove this hate in your heart then you have to try out Christ and if he does not answer you may continue on your path of hate.

Sakat says:

The real world bears no resemblance to the world of fairy tales in which everyone lives happily ever after. We cannot avoid the truth that life is imperfect, incomplete, unsatisfactory—the truth of the existence of suffering.
Given this reality, the important things for us to know are
whether suffering has a cause, and, if so, whether it is possible to
remove that cause, so that suffering may be removed. If the events
that cause our suffering are simply random occurrences over which
we can have no control or influence, then we are powerless and
might as well give up the attempt to find a way out of suffering. Or
if our sufferings are dictated by an omnipotent being acting in an
arbitrary and inscrutable manner, then we ought to find out how to
propitiate this being so that he will no longer inflict suffering on us.

The Buddha realized that our suffering is not merely a product of
chance. There are causes behind it, as there are causes for
all phenomena. The law of cause and effect—kamma—is universal
and fundamental to existence. Nor are the causes beyond our
control.Kamma’The word kamma (or, in its more widely known Sanskrit form,
karma) is popularly understood as meaning “fate.” Unfortunately,
the connotations of this word are exactly opposite to what the
Buddha intended by kamma. Fate is something outside our control,
the decree of providence, what has been preordained for each one of
us. Kamma, however, literally means “action.” Our own actions are
the causes of whatever we experience: “All beings own their deeds,
inherit their deeds, originate from their deeds, are tied to their deeds;
their deeds are their refuge. As their deeds are base or noble, so will
be their lives.”
1Everything that we encounter in life is the result of our own
actions. Consequently, we can each become master of our fate by
becoming master of our actions. Each of us is responsible for the
actions that give rise to our suffering. Each of us has the means to
end the suffering in our actions. The Buddha said,You are your own master,
You make your own future.
2.As it is, each of us is like a blindfolded man who has never
learned to drive, sitting behind the wheel of a speeding car on a busy
highway. He is not likely to reach his destination without mishap.
He may think that he is driving the car, but actually the car is
driving him. If he wants to avoid an accident, let alone arrive at his
goal, he should remove the blindfold, learn how to operate the
vehicle, and steer it out of danger as quickly as possible. Similarly,
we must become aware of what we do and then learn to perform
actions that will lead us where we really wish to go.

why? says:

Ron,

Whether Taxila had lecture halls or the like is irrelevant. Your arguments are silly and idiotic to say the least. An ancient University need not necessarily fit the definition of University as per modern standards. None the less, Taxila does qualify for centre of higher learning in the same website. The same website and as per you, Nalanda fits as a University. Nalanda too predates your pious christian lies. Teaching Vedas or Manu smriti does NOT disqualify or diminish any center of learning.

Radha Kumud Mookerji (2nd ed. 1951; reprint 1989), Ancient Indian Education: Brahmanical and Buddhist (p. 479), Motilal Banarsidass Publ., ISBN 81-208-0423-6:

“This shows that Taxila was a seat not of elementary, but higher, education, of colleges or a university as distinguished from schools.”

Radha Kumud Mookerji (2nd ed. 1951; reprint 1989), ”Ancient Indian Education: Brahmanical and Buddhist (p. 478), Motilal Banarsidass Publ., ISBN 81-208-0423-6:

“Thus the various centres of learning in different parts of the country became affiliated, as it were, to the educational centre, or the central university, of Taxila which exercised a kind of intellectual suzerainty over the wide world of letters in India.”

Balakrishnan Muniapan, Junaid M. Shaikh (2007), “Lessons in corporate governance from Kautilya’s Arthashastra in ancient India”, World Review of Entrepreneurship, Management and Sustainable Development 3 (1):

“Kautilya was also a Professor of Politics and Economics at Taxila University. Taxila University is one of the oldest known universities in the world and it was the chief learning centre in ancient India.”

Needham, Joseph (2004). Within the Four Seas: The Dialogue of East and West. Routledge. ISBN 0-415-36166-4.

“When the men of Alexander the Great came to Taxila in India in the fourth century BC they found a university there the like of which had not been seen in Greece, a university which taught the three Vedas and the eighteen accomplishments and was still existing when the Chinese pilgrim Fa-Hsien went there about AD 400.”

Political and social movements in ancient Panjab (from the Vedic age up to the Maurya period), by Buddha Prakash (Motilal Banarsidass, New Delhi, 1964)”Students from Magadha traversed the vast distances of northern India in order to join the schools and colleges of Takshashila. We learn from Pali texts that Brahmana youths, Khattiya princes and sons of setthis from Rajagriha, Kashi, Kosala and other places went to Takshashila for learning the Vedas and eighteen sciences and arts.”

Ron says:

Re:Taxila,

1) Also the Encyclopedia Britannica says
“Taxila, besides being a provincial seat, was also a centre of learning. It was not a university town with lecture halls and residential quarters, such as have been found at Nalanda in the Indian state of Bihar.”-2007 ), Encyclopedia Britannica

2) The archeologist who did excavation of Taxila was John Marhsall and he himself stated
“We come across several Jātaka stories about the students and teachers of Takshaśilā, but not a single episode even remotely suggests that the different ‘world renowned’ teachers living in that city belonged to a particular college or university of the modern type.” • F. W. Thomas (1944), in John Marshall (1951; 1975 reprint), Taxila, Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi

3) Also according to Indian Historian Altekar
“It may be observed at the outset that Taxila did not possess any colleges or university in the modern sense of the term.” • Anant Sadashiv Altekar (1934; reprint 1965), Education in Ancient India, Sixth Edition, Revised & Enlarged, Nand Kishore & Bros, Varanasi:

4) UNESCO considers it as a cultural centre.

5) Lastly if you continue reading your own article if you read further it says that others don’t agree it was a University and kids were going there.

So to conclude we can say that Taxila was an ancient place of learning but certainly not a University in the modern sense.

It did teach Vedas and Manu’s law which are considered utterly discriminatory even by Buddhist leaders like (Dr Ambedkar) also.

Phoenix says:

@Ron

It seems like why? is a bully.I have come across one other christian bully on this site by the name of Grace.There seems to be quite a few hindu bullies (not most) that fail to understand the difference between Christianity and Islam.No amount of reasoning can convince them that the unsavory biblical verses are not interpreted literally nor accepted as a universal decree.A simple of observation of a lack of christian terror groups or the lack of barbaric laws akin to sharia should suffice but unfortunately there hatred has clouded their judgement.

I will however give you ammo that could deter why? and company from their tactics.But bare in mind that I do not believe for one second that hinduism resembles Islam,in fact I have respect for the Bhagavad Gita and the hare krishna sect.I also believe hindus have contributed significantly to mathematics and astronomy,second after christian europe of course.In fact,hinduism has contributed more to science and mathematics than the agnostic religions of buddhism,taoism and jainsim.Hindu philosophies,customs,ayurvedic remedies(homeopathic medicine),and yogic practices continue to have a positive influence in the west and around the globe.

Click here for passages from hindu texts that resemble the very passages from the OT which he despises so much.Ask him why he has failed to mention these verses?

http://nastikasmission.blogspot.com/2011/01/exposing-hinduism.html

why? says:

Go to Khajuraho, India and you will see animal sex, orgies, anal sex etc. The Indian Government guides there say that sex in any form was not taboo in pre-British ancient India and India was a free society where everything sexual happened but the British made it a criminal offence.
======================================================================

First of all, Ron, realize that Khajuraho is one of the group of temples among thousand of other temples in India.

Hinduism is NOT monolithic as you think. Not all follow same type of Hinduism. Did you find every temple in India having similar artforms on their facade.

Second, Khajuraho group of temples are NOT just Hindu temples. There are Jain temples and HIndu temples together. It is the Jains who are more liberal with expression of human form had explicit sexual figures carved in their facades.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khajuraho_Group_of_Monuments

Khajuraho temples are famous for their erotic arts. These constitute about 10% of total art displayed at the monuments. Over 90% of the art work at the temple is about daily life and symbolic values in ancient Indian culture.

Indian government guides simply spit what they have been taught. They are NOT qualified historians.

===========================================
As for sex orgy, please read your bible passages given below.

Genesis 19:8 Tells of a man named Lot who offers his daughters to a crowd of would be angel rapers. Later, Lot impregnates his own daughters. (Lot’s Incest with his daughter)

Genesis 38:16-24 Tells a very interesting story of a man named Judah whom lived with his widowed daughter in law. His daughter in law was grieving and wearing the veils of mourning which Judah (a rather stupid man) mistook for the clothing of a prostitute. He ended up impregnating his daughter in law and she left the city. On a later date Judah sees the young woman again and demanded she be burned for being a prostitute (I like how only the woman is punished when THEY BOTH engaged in the sexual act). It wasn’t until Judah recognized the woman as his daughter in law and she was with his child, that he decided not to kill her. Basically, Judah can commit incest, use a prostitute (in his mistaken perception), and impregnate a MUCH younger woman, yet he thinks she is the one deserving of death. (Judah who impregnates his daughter-in-law)

Hard-core bible:

Sexual slavery of Pre-pubescent girls: (Numbers 31:17-18)

Deuteronomy 20:13-15 Kill all the men and boys in the cities that God “delivers into your hands,” but keep the women for raping.

Deuteronomy 21:11-14 If you see a pretty woman among the captives then just take her home and “go in unto her.”

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 Says that we must cut off a woman’s hand if she touches the “secrets” of a man who is fighting with her husband…“And thine eye shall not pity her.” Once again, there is no punishment for the man she touched, only the woman.

Numbers 31: 14-18 Moses tells his men to kill all the males, non-virginal women, elderly and children of the Midianite tribe. Of course, the virgin women are kept for raping. If you read later down in the scripture God states that the Jews can not even marry a Midianite woman (with exception to Moses). Hence these women who were captured were repeatedly raped and impregnated and they weren’t even allowed a marital status in which to protect them. (Rapist Profiteer Moses)

why? says:

“Taxila in the UNSESCO world heritage site is described as Cultural ancient place and NOT as a university in the modern sense.”
============================

Why should it fit your definition of University? Taxila is none the less an ancient centre of learning, much like modern day Universities. Just because you do not like it, it does NOT become not a center of learning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxila#Ancient_centre_of_learning

akshashila became a noted centre of learning (including the religious teachings of Hinduism) at least several centuries BCE, and continued to attract students from around the old world until the destruction of the city in the 5th century. At its height, it has been suggested that Takshashila exerted a sort of “intellectual suzerainty” over other centres of learning in India.,[7] and its primary concern was not with elementary, but higher education.[8] Generally, a student entered Takshashila at the age of sixteen. The Vedas, the ancient and the most revered Hindu scriptures, and the Eighteen Silpas or Arts, which included skills such as archery, hunting, and elephant lore, were taught, in addition to its law school, medical school, and school of military science.[46] Students came to Takshashila from far-off places such as Kashi, Kosala and Magadha, in spite of the long and arduous journey they had to undergo, on account of the excellence of the learned teachers there, all recognized as authorities on their respective subjects.

Sakat says:

All of us seek peace and harmony, because this is what
we lack in our lives. We all want to be happy; we regard it as our
right. Yet happiness is a goal we strive toward more often than
attain. At times we all experience dissatisfaction in life
—agitation, irritation, disharmony, suffering. Even if at this moment we are free
from such dissatisfaction’s, we can all remember a time when they
afflicted us and can foresee a time when they may recur. Eventually
we all must face the suffering of death.
Nor do our personal dissatisfaction’s remain limited to ourselves;
instead, we keep sharing our suffering with others. The atmosphere
around each unhappy person becomes charged with agitation, so that
all who enter that environment may also feel agitated and unhappy.
In this way individual tensions combine to create the tensions of
society.
This is the basic problem of life: its unsatisfactory nature. Things
happen that we do not want; things that we want do not happen. And
we are ignorant of how or why this process works, just as we are
each ignorant of our own beginning and end.
Twenty-five centuries ago in northern India, a man decided to
investigate this problem, the problem of human suffering. After
years of searching and trying various methods, he discovered a way
to gain insight into the reality of his own nature and to experience
true freedom from suffering. Having reached the highest goal of
liberation, of release from misery and conflict, he devoted the rest of
his life to helping others do as he had done, showing them the way
to liberate themselves.
This person- “Siddhattha Gotama”, known as the Buddha, “the
enlightened one”—never claimed to be anything other than a
man. Like all great teachers he became the subject of legends, but no
matter what marvelous stories were told of his past existences or his
miraculous powers, still all accounts agree that he never claimed to
be divine or to be divinely inspired. Whatever special qualities he
had were pre-eminently human qualities that he had brought to
perfection. Therefore, whatever he achieved is within the grasp of
any human being who works as he did.

kamose5 says:

@A.H.

““Since the judgment of the people who compiled the Bible was so poor,”

What do you mean by that?”

I already told you. I don’t think the crimes and absurdities in the Bible mix well with Jesus’s teachings.

Jesus was certainly aware of all the Old Testament nonsense. There are only two possibilities. Both of them imply that Christianity is false.

1) Jesus did tell people that Old Testament is a bunch of lies and depravity. Therefore, since the holy book of Christians does contain the Old Testament, it means that all of them are in error.

2) Jesus approved of the Old Testament. In that case, he legitimized murder and savage ignorance, so he erred greatly in spiritual, intellectual and moral matters.

Therefore, Christianity is false.

“Get acquainted with the Christian faith, in other words what have Christians to say about themselves what they believe, internet is a good source of information avoid hearsay.”

I am more than acquainted with the Christian faith. I won’t write here any of my 100000 disagreements with the Christian faith, that would be a waste of time.

“A mere assertion, you have to prove it. But if it is true it is or was not dictated by the Christian faith, but it are or were actions of sinful men who happen(ed) to be Christians.”

Did you read my previous post on Christian crimes? Why didn’t they happen to be Jains? Or Hindus? Or Buddhists? Or Sikhs? Or Zoroastrians?

Why do sinful people so often happen to be Christians?

A.H. says:

“Do these quotes imply that Islam is true?”

Good question!

“I, for one, don’t hate Jesus at all.”

Good!

“And I don’t hate Christians.”

Fine!

“Since the judgment of the people who compiled the Bible was so poor,”

What do you mean by that?

“how can I know for sure what Jesus said and what he didn’t say?”

Another good question!, it will take years to know if you are already interested in.

“How can I really follow him then?”

Get acquainted with the Christian faith, in other words what have Christians to say about themselves what they believe, internet is a good source of information avoid hearsay.

Start for example with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Church Jesus founded, it contains the Christian doctrines over 2000 years.

“But, if he was that cosmic, why didn’t he tell us that the religion made in his name will kill more humans than all the other religions combined?”

A mere assertion, you have to prove it. But if it is true it is or was not dictated by the Christian faith, but it are or were actions of sinful men who happen(ed) to be Christians.

Ron says:

Famous peoples quotes on Jesus.

Some people in this forum have immense hatred for Jesus, Christianity and Christians and have tried to redefine the definition of “hate” so that it suits them and they can justify their inner hate and I don’t understand why?

I have some quotes of famous personalities most of whom were not Christians at some or all period in their lives as such their quotes are definitely not biased.

A man who was completely innocent, offered himself as a sacrifice for the good of others, including his enemies, and became the ransom of the world. It was a perfect act. –Mahatma Gandhi.

Even those who have renounced Christianity and attack it, in their inmost being still follow the Christian ideal, for hitherto neither their subtlety nor the ardour of their hearts has been able to create a higher ideal of man and of virtue than the ideal given by Christ of old. –Fyodor Dostoyevsky

I know men and I tell you that Jesus Christ is no mere man. Between Him and every other person in the world there is no possible term of comparison. Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and I have founded empires. But on what did we rest the creation of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded His empire upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him. –Napoleon

Jesus of Nazareth, without money and arms, conquered more millions than Alexander the Great, Caesar, Mohammed, and Napoleon; without science and learning, he shed more light on things human and divine than all philosophers and scholars combined; without the eloquence of school, he spoke such words of life as were never spoken before or since, and produced effects which lie beyond the reach of orator or poet; without writing a single line, he set more pens in motion, and furnished themes for more sermons, orations, discussions, learned volumes, works of art, and songs of praise than the whole army of great men of ancient and modern times. –Philip Schaff

I am an historian, I am not a believer, but I must confess as a historian that this penniless preacher from Nazareth is irrevocably the very center of history. Jesus Christ is easily the most dominant figure in all history.–H.G. Wells

As the centuries pass, the evidence is accumulating that, measured by His effect on history, Jesus is the most influential life ever lived on this planet. — Historian Kenneth Scott LaTourette

Jesus was the greatest religious genius that ever lived. — Ernest Renan

There is something so pure and frank and noble about Him that to doubt His sincerity would be like doubting the brightness of the sun. — Charles Edward Jefferson

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic – on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg – or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.–C.S. Lewis

I accept the resurrection of Easter Sunday not as an invention of the community of disciples, but as a historical event. If the resurrection of Jesus from the dead on that Easter Sunday were a public event which had been made known…not only to the 530 Jewish witnesses but to the entire population, all Jews would have become followers of Jesus. –Pinchas Lapide, Orthodox Jewish scholar, Germany (born 1922)

If I, as an Oriental have to worship Jesus of Nazareth, there is only one way, that is, to worship him as God and nothing else. — Swami Vivekananda

Jesus Christ was God — the Personal God become man. He has manifested Himself many times in different forms and these alone are what you can worship. God in His absolute nature is not to be worshipped. Worshipping such God would be nonsense. We have to worship Jesus Christ, the human manifestation, as God. You cannot worship anything higher than the manifestation of God. The sooner you give up the worship of God separate from Christ, the better for you.” — Swami Vivekananda

“Those in the West who have adopted Christ as their own should remember that he was an Oriental. Love and sympathy for Jesus should be expanded into love and sympathy for all Orientals, and for all the world.” — Paramahansa Yogananda

“Every event in the life of Christ, because he is born of the Spirit, is to be seen as a universal-symbolic stage of spiritual life; Christhood is the state of glorious interior illumination in which divine wisdom has become heritage of the soul”. Dr Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan

The ultimate liberative experience in Hinduism is described as aham Brahma asmi, i.e. the realisation that I am That (Absolute). Only Jesus Christ is capable of identifying that Truth with Himself (“I and the Father are one”). –Swami Akhilananda (1894-1962)

When you earnestly search, you will find the Way, the Truth and the Life

A.H. says:

“Gee-Zeus is Lord”

The catechism of the Catholic Church, the Church Jesus founded, reads:

IV. Lord

446 In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the ineffable Hebrew name YHWH, by which God revealed himself to Moses,59 is rendered as Kyrios, “Lord”. From then on, “Lord” becomes the more usual name by which to indicate the divinity of Israel’s God. the New Testament uses this full sense of the title “Lord” both for the Father and – what is new – for Jesus, who is thereby recognized as God Himself.60

447 Jesus ascribes this title to himself in a veiled way when he disputes with the Pharisees about the meaning of Psalm 110, but also in an explicit way when he addresses his apostles.61 Throughout his public life, he demonstrated his divine sovereignty by works of power over nature, illnesses, demons, death and sin.

448 Very often in the Gospels people address Jesus as “Lord”. This title testifies to the respect and trust of those who approach him for help and healing.62 At the prompting of the Holy Spirit, “Lord” expresses the recognition of the divine mystery of Jesus.63 In the encounter with the risen Jesus, this title becomes adoration: “My Lord and my God!” It thus takes on a connotation of love and affection that remains proper to the Christian tradition: “It is the Lord!”64

449 By attributing to Jesus the divine title “Lord”, the first confessions of the Church’s faith affirm from the beginning that the power, honour and glory due to God the Father are due also to Jesus, because “he was in the form of God”,65 and the Father manifested the sovereignty of Jesus by raising him from the dead and exalting him into his glory.66

450 From the beginning of Christian history, the assertion of Christ’s lordship over the world and over history has implicitly recognized that man should not submit his personal freedom in an absolute manner to any earthly power, but only to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Caesar is not “the Lord”.67 “The Church. . . believes that the key, the centre and the purpose of the whole of man’s history is to be found in its Lord and Master.”68

451 Christian prayer is characterized by the title “Lord”, whether in the invitation to prayer (“The Lord be with you”), its conclusion (“through Christ our Lord”) or the exclamation full of trust and hope: Maranatha (“Our Lord, come!”) or Maranatha (“Come, Lord!”) – “Amen Come Lord Jesus!”69

Ra says:

@my friend why?!, Gee-Zeus is the Lord!

passive observer says:

@KamoseS
You lack common sense. 1.5 billion followers of Koran produced only three Nobel prize winners.(apart from Peace prizes) Similarly if the Bible is evil there can be only five or six Nobel laureates. It is clearly not the case. Moreover Bible is called a Judeo-Christian Bible. First 39 books are common to both Jews and Christians. The Ten Commandments, the core values of humanity was given 4000 yrs ago to the Jews, is a common theme throughout the Bible. Jesus often used the Ten Commandments in his preaching.
The philosophical foundations of modern science were laid in the 14th century. Technological innovations in Europe, took place in Christian monasteries. St. Benedict, the Father of Europe and his monks who made. WATERMILL, WINDMILL, CARNKSHAFT, FLYWHEEL LATEEN SAIL in their monasteries .Eilmer of Malmesbury, England was a Benedictine monk who made a glider and attempted to fly 600 metres and broken his legs in 1010 A.D. Jesuits were the pioneers in the development of Seismology, particularly Frederick Odenbach S.J.
Science took off in the 16th century and grew in the Christian universities.(monasteries turned into universities) University is a Christian invention. The Catholics who built Bologna University (1088 A.D), Paris (1150 ), Oxford (1196), Cambridge (1206). It was the age of scholasticism. The Protestants who built Harvard (1636), Princeton (1746) etc. Although there were scientific inventions in India and China and among Buddhist monks, but science did not develop further due to lack of universities at that time. When the world ignored the deaf and the blind as their fate , destiny and Karma, the compassionate Christians who found ways and means to educate them.
Today hundreds of thousands of schools, colleges, and other educational institutions are run by various Christian denominations, in more than 190 countries and making the world a better place to live in. Many of the Nobel laureates (atheists agnostics included) studied in the Christian institutions. Amartya Sen a Nobel laureate is a Hindu, but studied in Trinity, Cambridge. He advised Tony Blair government to promote Christian schools in England.
If you don’t accept these facts your world view is flawed. I will not have any further communication on this subject. I have a respect for Dr. Ali Sina whose mind is always open for new facts. He was an atheist, and now accepted “Jesus as the Son of the living God” after watching NDEs.
Jesus said “Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice”

kamose5 says:

@passive observer: People like you should not be allowed access to a keyboard

“If the Bible is evil how it was possible that out of 820 or so Nobel Prize Winners 800 were influenced by the Bible (180 Jews 620 Christians)”

Are you stupid? Firstly, your numbers are made up: many of your Jews and Christians were agnostics, deists or atheists. Secondly, how does reading an evil book prevent you from winning a Nobel Prize? Also, how does being a nominal Jew or Christian imply that you’ve read the Bible?

Not to mention that Christians think that Jesus was God, whereas Jews think he was the most dangerous of all false prophets. Obviously, if either one of this beliefs is true, the other is EXTREMELY wrong. Why doesn’t your nonsensical God punish the party with the extremely wrong belief?

“We must be chosen to understand Jesus.”

Certainly you weren’t chosen to understand basic reasoning, let alone Jesus.

why? says:

Steve,

Before you spout more nonsense that compassion is NOT feeling, go through the link.

http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/topic/compassion/definition

What Is Compassion?

Compassion literally means “to suffer together.” Among emotion researchers, it is defined as the feeling that arises when you are confronted with another’s suffering and feel motivated to relieve that suffering.

While cynics may dismiss compassion as touchy-feely or irrational, scientists have started to map the biological basis of compassion, suggesting its deep evolutionary purpose. This research has shown that when we feel compassion, our heart rate slows down, we secrete the “bonding hormone” oxytocin, and regions of the brain linked to empathy, caregiving, and feelings of pleasure light up, which often results in our wanting to approach and care for other people.

Ron says:

@why,
I agree with you that there are a lot of crazy Christians out there and there crazy in every religion.

But I am more reminded of Gandhi who said “I like your Christ but not your Christianity”

I knew more about other belief systems before I found Christ to be different. In fact I laughed at Christians. I was an inquirer and did question everything just like Dr Subodh Pandit.

If you have time look at BBC’s Shocking Asia documentary. For me it intrigued me and made me feel that I should visit these places. On visit to South Asia, I found lot of inequality, a religiously instituted caste system , religious fanaticism, animal, idol worships, blind beliefs, lack of compassion for the poor, child labour, poverty, crime etc. Nevertheless I did visit Buddhist and Hindu temples and shrines.

As I did my shopping and dining in some areas wherein I was treated very well there were nearby outside the homeless, sick and the hungry. Even the rich business owners who were predominantly Hindu, or Buddhist or Muslim never felt compassion and did very little to help the poor who were just outside their premises, in fact they treated them as dirt. Many places of businesses and restaurants kept images of their gods and worshipped them when the patrons bought or ate there and next moment where using expletives against workers and the needy outside. I found it strange but did not care thinking this is their way of life. Also even I did not feel compassion towards the needy earlier in life (i.e. before accepting Christ).

But after accepting Christ, I felt compassion towards all homeless and hungry and the needy wherever I met them whether in my hometown or elsewhere. Never before did I feel compassion towards the needy earlier in life. Christ does change you. Even Gandhi adopted non-violence from Christ’s teachings.

I don’t know if Naghma was a prostitute but if she was as what you say, then I believe her testimony is more uplifting as she is coming out from a life of darkness and sin to Christ.

The reason, I posted testimonies of Indian professionals and celebrities is that you don’t need to check their degrees or identity as they are on the public domain specially on the web.

This is a testimony of mother of Tennis Player Mahesh Bhupathi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AINJwSGkGXM

and this if of Mahesh Bhupathi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-RccGnpqqs

Try inviting Christ in your life at least for a week and check it out then go back to your life if you feel he doesn’t answer.

If you are averse to taking the name of Christ then pray as below sincerely for a week “O God who made me come into my life through dreams and visions and show me the right path, if not I will continue my current belief system.” He does answer. Peace be with you.

passive observer says:

Atheist,
If the Bible is evil how it was possible that out of 820 or so Nobel Prize Winners 800 were influenced by the Bible (180 Jews 620 Christians) There are some Nobel Prize winners like Bertrand Russel said they were agnostics. However initially there were influence by the Bible and achieved greatness.
How is that 130 Christians majority countries are comparatively repeat comparatively in peace.
Jesus said “Not everyone seeing sees; not everyone hearing hears”
Please remember Jesus also said “Many are called but few are chosen”
We must be chosen to understand Jesus.

Atheist says:

Bible quotes-

Don’t Rob God

“Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! “But you ask, ‘What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?’ “You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do,” says the LORD Almighty, “I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won’t have enough room to take it in! Try it! Let me prove it to you! Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. Your grapes will not shrivel before they are ripe,” says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 3:8-11 NLT)

(Doesn’t it seem really stupid that an all-powerful God claims he can bring food and grapes to the masses but he can’t even feed himself?)

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Natural Disasters are God’s Wrath

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

Pillage and Plunder

For the land of Israel lies empty and broken after your attacks, but the LORD will restore its honor and power again. Shields flash red in the sunlight! The attack begins! See their scarlet uniforms! Watch as their glittering chariots move into position, with a forest of spears waving above them. The chariots race recklessly along the streets and through the squares, swift as lightning, flickering like torches. The king shouts to his officers; they stumble in their haste, rushing to the walls to set up their defenses. But too late! The river gates are open! The enemy has entered! The palace is about to collapse! Nineveh’s exile has been decreed, and all the servant girls mourn its capture. Listen to them moan like doves; watch them beat their breasts in sorrow. Nineveh is like a leaking water reservoir! The people are slipping away. “Stop, stop!” someone shouts, but the people just keep on running. Loot the silver! Plunder the gold! There seems no end to Nineveh’s many treasures – its vast, uncounted wealth. Soon the city is an empty shambles, stripped of its wealth. Hearts melt in horror, and knees shake. The people stand aghast, their faces pale and trembling. (Nahum 2:2-10 NLT)

An Angry Jealous God

“I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, ‘Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won’t need to strike again.’ But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn.” So now the LORD says: “Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. “On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)

God Will Kill Ethiopia

“You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword,” says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. “In all the world there is no city as great as I,” it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist. (Zephaniah 2:12-15 NLT)

God’s Human Slaughter Fest

Stand in silence in the presence of the Sovereign LORD, for the awesome day of the LORD’s judgment has come. The LORD has prepared his people for a great slaughter and has chosen their executioners. “On that day of judgment,” says the LORD, “I will punish the leaders and princes of Judah and all those following pagan customs. Yes, I will punish those who participate in pagan worship ceremonies, and those who steal and kill to fill their masters’ homes with loot. “On that day,” says the LORD, “a cry of alarm will come from the Fish Gate and echo throughout the newer Mishneh section of the city. And a great crashing sound will come from the surrounding hills. Wail in sorrow, all you who live in the market area, for all who buy and sell there will die. “I will search with lanterns in Jerusalem’s darkest corners to find and punish those who sit contented in their sins, indifferent to the LORD, thinking he will do nothing at all to them. They are the very ones whose property will be plundered by the enemy, whose homes will be ransacked. They will never have a chance to live in the new homes they have built. They will never drink wine from the vineyards they have planted. “That terrible day of the LORD is near. Swiftly it comes – a day when strong men will cry bitterly. It is a day when the LORD’s anger will be poured out. It is a day of terrible distress and anguish, a day of ruin and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, of clouds, blackness, trumpet calls, and battle cries. Down go the walled cities and strongest battlements! “Because you have sinned against the LORD, I will make you as helpless as a blind man searching for a path. Your blood will be poured out into the dust, and your bodies will lie there rotting on the ground.” Your silver and gold will be of no use to you on that day of the LORD’s anger. For the whole land will be devoured by the fire of his jealousy. He will make a terrifying end of all the people on earth. (Zephaniah 1:7:18 NLT)

God Will Kill Everyone

“I will sweep away everything in all your land,” says the LORD. “I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity,” says the LORD. “I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD’s guidance or seek my blessings.” (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)

Old is New

Dear friends, I am not writing a new commandment, for it is an old one you have always had, right from the beginning. This commandment – to love one another – is the same message you heard before. Yet it is also new. (1 John 2:7-8 NLT)

(This is not evil, but it is just so stupid I just had to post it.)

Prayer Cures the Sick

Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save him that is sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, it shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14-15 ASV)

(This passage is evil because people who believe it may not get proper medical treatment for their sick children.)

Fire Breathing Dragons

“Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook? Or press down his tongue with a cord? “Can you put a rope in his nose Or pierce his jaw with a hook? “Will he make many supplications to you, Or will he speak to you soft words? “Will he make a covenant with you? Will you take him for a servant forever? “Will you play with him as with a bird, Or will you bind him for your maidens? “Will the traders bargain over him? Will they divide him among the merchants? “Can you fill his skin with harpoons, Or his head with fishing spears? “Lay your hand on him; Remember the battle; you will not do it again! “Behold, your expectation is false; Will you be laid low even at the sight of him? “No one is so fierce that he dares to arouse him; Who then is he that can stand before Me? “Who has given to Me that I should repay {him?} {Whatever} is under the whole heaven is Mine.

“I will not keep silence concerning his limbs, Or his mighty strength, or his orderly frame. “Who can strip off his outer armor? Who can come within his double mail? “Who can open the doors of his face? Around his teeth there is terror. “{His} strong scales are {his} pride, Shut up {as with} a tight seal. “One is so near to another That no air can come between them. “They are joined one to another; They clasp each other and cannot be separated. “His sneezes flash forth light, And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. “Out of his mouth go burning torches; Sparks of fire leap forth. “Out of his nostrils smoke goes forth As {from} a boiling pot and {burning} rushes. “His breath kindles coals, And a flame goes forth from his mouth. “In his neck lodges strength, And dismay leaps before him. “The folds of his flesh are joined together, Firm on him and immovable. “His heart is as hard as a stone, Even as hard as a lower millstone.

“When he raises himself up, the mighty fear; Because of the crashing they are bewildered. “The sword that reaches him cannot avail, Nor the spear, the dart or the javelin. “He regards iron as straw, Bronze as rotten wood. “The arrow cannot make him flee; Slingstones are turned into stubble for him. “Clubs are regarded as stubble; He laughs at the rattling of the javelin. “His underparts are {like} sharp potsherds; He spreads out {like} a threshing sledge on the mire. “He makes the depths boil like a pot; He makes the sea like a jar of ointment. “Behind him he makes a wake to shine; One would think the deep to be gray-haired. “Nothing on earth is like him, One made without fear. “He looks on everything that is high; He is king over all the sons of pride.” (Job 41:1-34 NAS)

Hammer Tent Peg Into Head

Meanwhile, Sisera ran to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, because Heber’s family was on friendly terms with King Jabin of Hazor. Jael went out to meet Sisera and said to him, “Come into my tent, sir. Come in. Don’t be afraid.” So he went into her tent, and she covered him with a blanket. “Please give me some water,” he said. “I’m thirsty.” So she gave him some milk to drink and covered him again. “Stand at the door of the tent,” he told her. “If anybody comes and asks you if there is anyone here, say no.” But when Sisera fell asleep from exhaustion, Jael quietly crept up to him with a hammer and tent peg. Then she drove the tent peg through his temple and into the ground, and so he died. When Barak came looking for Sisera, Jael went out to meet him. She said, “Come, and I will show you the man you are looking for.” So he followed her into the tent and found Sisera lying there dead, with the tent peg through his temple. So on that day Israel saw God subdue Jabin, the Canaanite king. And from that time on Israel became stronger and stronger against King Jabin, until they finally destroyed him. (Judges 4:17-24 NLT)

Murder and Slavery

The tribe of Benjamin, however, failed to drive out the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem. So to this day the Jebusites live in Jerusalem among the people of Benjamin. The descendants of Joseph attacked the town of Bethel, and the LORD was with them. They sent spies to Bethel (formerly known as Luz), who confronted a man coming out of the city. They said to him, “Show us a way into the city, and we will have mercy on you.” So he showed them a way in, and they killed everyone in the city except for this man and his family. Later the man moved to the land of the Hittites, where he built a city. He named the city Luz, and it is known by that name to this day. The tribe of Manasseh failed to drive out the people living in Beth-shan, Taanach, Dor, Ibleam, Megiddo, and their surrounding villages, because the Canaanites were determined to stay in that region.

When the Israelites grew stronger, they forced the Canaanites to work as slaves, but they never did drive them out of the land. The tribe of Ephraim also failed to drive out the Canaanites living in Gezer, and so the Canaanites continued to live there among them. The tribe of Zebulun also failed to drive out the Canaanites living in Kitron and Nahalol, who continued to live among them. But they forced them to work as slaves. The tribe of Asher also failed to drive out the residents of Acco, Sidon, Ahlab, Aczib, Helbah, Aphik, and Rehob. In fact, because they did not drive them out, the Canaanites dominated the land where the people of Asher lived. The tribe of Naphtali also failed to drive out the residents of Beth-shemesh and Beth-anath. Instead, the Canaanites dominated the land where they lived. Nevertheless, the people of Beth-shemesh and Beth-anath were sometimes forced to work as slaves for the people of Naphtali. As for the tribe of Dan, the Amorites forced them into the hill country and would not let them come down into the plains. The Amorites were determined to stay in Mount Heres, Aijalon, and Shaalbim, but when the descendants of Joseph became stronger, they forced the Amorites to work as slaves. (Judges 1:21-35 NLT)

Micah Kills a Whole Town

Then, with Micah’s idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel’s son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT)

(Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)

Ten Thousand Murdered at God’s Command

After Joshua died, the Israelites asked the LORD, “Which tribe should attack the Canaanites first?” The LORD answered, “Judah, for I have given them victory over the land.” The leaders of Judah said to their relatives from the tribe of Simeon, “Join with us to fight against the Canaanites living in the territory allotted to us. Then we will help you conquer your territory.” So the men of Simeon went with Judah. When the men of Judah attacked, the LORD gave them victory over the Canaanites and Perizzites, and they killed ten thousand enemy warriors at the town of Bezek. While at Bezek they encountered King Adoni-bezek and fought against him, and the Canaanites and Perizzites were defeated. Adoni-bezek escaped, but the Israelites soon captured him and cut off his thumbs and big toes. Adoni-bezek said, “I once had seventy kings with thumbs and big toes cut off, eating scraps from under my table. Now God has paid me back for what I did to them.” They took him to Jerusalem, and he died there. The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem and captured it, killing all its people and setting the city on fire. (Judges 1:1-8 NLT)

Kill All of Babylon

“Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”. (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Canaan Enslaved for Absurd Reason

Noah, a man of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard. He drank some of the wine and became drunk, and he lay uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father’s nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, he said, “Cursed be Canaan; lowest of slaves shall he be to his brothers.” He also said, “Blessed by the Lord my God be Shem; and let Canaan be his slave. May God make space for Japheth, and let him live in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his slave.” (Genesis 9:20-27 NRSV)

Family Killed

Then Zimri, who commanded half of the royal chariots, made plans to kill him. One day in Tirzah, Elah was getting drunk at the home of Arza, the supervisor of the palace. Zimri walked in and struck him down and killed him. This happened in the twenty-seventh year of King Asa’s reign in Judah. Then Zimri became the next king. Zimri immediately killed the entire royal family of Baasha, and he did not leave a single male child. He even destroyed distant relatives and friends. So Zimri destroyed the dynasty of Baasha as the LORD had promised through the prophet Jehu. This happened because of the sins of Baasha and his son Elah and because of all the sins they led Israel to commit, arousing the anger of the LORD, the God of Israel, with their idols. (1 Kings 16:9-13 NLT)

Killed by a Lion

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!” But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.” And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

Exterminate 7 Nations

You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, ‘How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?’ But don’t be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! “No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)

Kill Everyone in 7 Nations

When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you. When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them, and don’t let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters. They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you. (Deuteronomy 7:1-4 NLT)
The Evil Bible Quotes of the Day Archives:
January February March April May June July August September October November December

why? says:

“Emotions are bad, evil arises when people are driven by their emotions and ego not reason.”

Emotions are NOT always bad. Can you use mere logic to justify not harming others. You cannot. You must have emotion called compassion for others to justify not harming others. The reason you or I for not harming others is sympathy or even empathy.

“We don’t hate ideas, an idea can be written in a book but it’s crazy to say I hate a book. You can say this idea is bad for humanity because of x, y and z but that’s about it.”

It is NOT at all crazy to hate certain ideas. Why do you think the idea of having sex slaves is bad for others? It is based on empathy for others and so you find disgust or revolt or repugnance. This is intense dislike or loathing or hatred for such ideas.

“I wouldn’t call that hatred, cancer is also harmful to everyone in society but it doesn’t make any sense to say I hate cancer.”

Intense dislike is hatred for certain ideas.

“Also it’s quite possible that Jesus was a wise person with philosophical teachings not so different from the Buddha and ancient Hindu philosophers and all the things like resurrection,”

I disagree here. If he were existent, he should have openly tore apart old testament, a barbaric genocidal religious book which is the harbinger of religiously sanctioning sexual slavery, kidnapping etc. Besides, didn’t jeebus himself say he did not come to establish peace in the world, but a sword. Would a loving good person, wantedly teach something that would lead to division and war as per his own claims. Only evil people would sow the seeds of division and hatred. His teachings are full of hatred. Didn’t he say that those who do not accept him would have suffering worse than sodom and gomorrah. He insisted on blind belief and NOt on knowledge.

HIs philosophical teachings are nowhere similar to Buddha nor Hindu teachings, where direct perception and knowledge is the key to one’s salvation, not blind belief.

why? says:

Ron,

For every so called testimony you post, there will be several others who converted from christianity to other religions ranging from iskconism, TM, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and even to Islam.

Testimonies are useless. You can provide endless testimonies. Finally they are what they are, mere subjective experiences.

See the following youtube videos.

Bat-shit Crazy Christians 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2z-ZfEcZNM

Brain Washing ( Jesus Camp ”Highlights” )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac

Crazy Screaming Christian at some jesus camp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyJI9xDUYV8

Ra says:

Hi Ron, Some Hindus found Christ and some Christians found “The Inner Light”
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vndEZfiSws4&w=420&h=315%5D

why? says:

“You can justify hate using semantics, but ultimately you are fooling yourself only.”

Do you have any logical argument why one should NOT hate evil and those who spread evil? If not, you are ultimately fooling yourself only. Loving evil people ultimately implies approving evil as well.

“Jesus said love your enemies and do not hate them. Bless those who curse you.”

Can I ask you why your jeebus sees others as enemies? Didn’t jeebus say that those who deny him, for them the day of judgment will be worse than that of sodom and gomoorah? Is this how jeebus “loves” and “blesses” his enemies? Is hypocrisy part of jeebus’ teachings?

The teachings of hypocrites like jeebus are always full of contradictions. They advice others to love and bless their enemies, while they themselves curse those who do not accept them.

Did jeebus ever bless and love satan? Why didn’t jeebus bless satan anywhere in gospel?

“Do unto others as you would want others do to you.”

So what is the relevance here….Does this imply we should love evil people?

“This is a testimony of Naghma (Actress)”

So now all you have is another characterless prostitute actress as a testimony for your fake god.

why? says:

“Hatred is an emotion it’s not rational. Also it’s just a waste of energy and time. Furthermore Muhammed and founders of Christianity are dead, what’s the point in hating dead men?”
========================================================

Steve, we are not just robots. We have emotions. Having emotions is not bad in itself. Just like dead people, ideologies are also dead. Yet we hate certain ideologies. Don’t we? Do you hate a religious teaching that says taking sex slaves is fine? It is this same kind of hatred I am talking about. It is NOT the uncontrollable emotional reaction you or I have had, say as a child. This hatred is borne out of knowledge that certain teachers and teachings are absolutely harmful for everyone in society.

Ron says:

Earlier I posted the testimonies of Dr Hugh Ross (Astrophysicist) . His doctorate is from University of Toronto and he is well known and you can check out easily on the web.

Also I posted the testimony of Pandit Dharam Prakash Sharma who is also well known as he is a Bollywood and TV personality, Author.

They don’t need to show certificates as they are on the web. Yes if you have hatred of Christians and also are a skeptic then you will not be convinced regardless of the evidence.

Lee Strobel is an Atheist Journalist of repute with the Chicago Tribune with a law degree from Yale and a best-selling author. He shares his story on how he found Christ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnKPTtU_Vwk

If you are a fake/fraud then you tend to look at everyone as a fake/fraud. I don’t mean to say that you are a fraud but it is natural to think that everyone are the same and build a stereotype.

Please don’t ask for the evidence of his degrees or identity as they are openly mentioned on the web.

Also note that if you hate Christ then it is difficult to love someone. Christ was the epitome of forgiveness. Turn to Christ and you will experience love and compassion, forgiveness and peace.

why? says:

Ron,

Please don’t bother posting fake testimonies. We know how christians fake it.

Even if every soul existent testifies for falsehood, it is still falsehood. Delusions do not prove anything.

Ra says:

We should be suspicious of anyone who it was reported that he performed miracles.

Atheist says:

Prophecies to Identify the Messiah, Which Jesus Does Not Fulfill:

1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means “God with us.” Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.

2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.

Prophecies Christians Use to Verify Jesus as the Messiah, Yet Clearly Fail:

4) The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule “from sea to sea”. Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

5) Matthew (Matthew 2:17-18) quotes Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:15), claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod’s alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (Jeremiah 31:16-17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod’s massacre.

6) John 19:33 says that during Jesus’ crucifixion, the soldiers didn’t break his legs because he was already dead. Verse John 19:36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: “Not a bone of him shall be broken.” But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12 & Psalm 34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 & Numbers 9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about. And Psalm 34:20 seems to refer to righteous people in general (see verse Psalm 34:19, where a plural is used), not to make a prophecy about a specific person.

7) “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.” Hosea 11:1. Matthew (Matthew 2:15) claims that the flight of Jesus’ family to Egypt is a fulfillment of this verse. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all. It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse (“Out of Egypt I have called my son”).

8) “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” Micah 5:2 The gospel of Matthew (Matthew 2:5-6) claims that Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem fulfils this prophecy. But this is unlikely for two reasons.

A) “Bethlehem Ephratah” in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb’s second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chronicles 2:18, 2:50-52 & 4:4).

B) The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did. It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: “And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah” rather than “Bethlehem Ephratah” as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make this verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.

Statements Jesus Made Which Are False:

9) Jesus in John 14:12 & Mark 16:17-18 said: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth in me, the works that I do shall he also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.” This implies that Jesus’ true followers should be able to routinely perform the following tricks: 1) cast out devils, 2) speak in tongues, 3) take up serpents, 4) drink poisons without harm, and 5) cure the sick by touching them and MANY other of Jesus’ “works”. Curiously I have yet to see a Christian that can do any of the above on demand.

10) In John 14:13-14 Jesus stated: “And whatsoever ye ask in my name I do, that the Father may be glorified in the son. If ye ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” In reality, millions of people have made millions of requests in Jesus’ name and failed to receive satisfaction. This promise or prophecy has failed completely.

11) Paul says Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection (1 Corinthian 15:14-17). Yet Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights. Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only one and a half days, so he could not have been the messiah by his own and Paul’s admission.

12) Jesus’ prophecy in John 13:38 (“The cock shall not crow, till thou [Peter] hast denied me three times”) is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the cock crowed after the first denial, not the third.

13) In Mark 10:19 Jesus said: “Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.” Jesus needs to re-read the Ten Commandments. There is no Old Testament commandment against defrauding. The only relevant statement about defrauding is in Leviticus 19:13 , which says : “Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor.” This is an OT law, but is not listed with the Ten Commandments. Surely, if Jesus was god incarnate he would know the commandments.

14) “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13). If Jesus is in heaven, how can he be down on earth speaking? Moreover, according to 2 Kings 2:11 (“and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven”) Jesus was not the only person to ascend into heaven, nor was he the first. Elijah preceded him and apparently Enoch did also (“And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him”–Genesis 5:24).

15) In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.” This obviously has to be false, for Jesus was supposed to lay dead in the tomb for three days following his crucifixion.

1 6) Jesus says : “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy” (Matthew 5:43). This statement does not exist in the OT either. In fact, Proverbs 24:17 says, “Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth…”

17) Jesus is reported to say: “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it” (Luke 16:16). Certainly every man is not pressing to enter the kingdom of God. The very fact that I am an atheist (one third of the world’s population does not believe in a god) proves this verse to be false.

18) “Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?” (Matthew 12:5) Nowhere does the OT state that the priests in the temple profaned the Sabbath and were considered blameless.

19) “Yea; have ye never read, ‘Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise'” (Matthew 21:16). Jesus is quoting Psalm 8:2, which says, “Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies…”. “Perfect praise” has little to do with “ordaining strength because of thine enemies.” Another misquotation!

20) “But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him” (Mark 9:13). There are no prophecies in the OT of things that were to happen to Elijah.

Jesus, in all his “God incarnate” wisdom, contradicts himself:

21) Jesus consistently contradicts himself concerning his Godly status. “I and my father are one.” (John 14:28) Also see Philippians 2:5-6 Those verses lead us to believe that he is a part of the trinity and equal to his father being a manifestation of him. Yet, Jesus also made many statements that deny he is the perfect men, much less God incarnate. Take the following for example: “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God” (Matthew 19:17). “My father if greater then I.” (John 14:28) Also see Matthew 24:26 Clearly, Jesus is denouncing the possibility of him being the Messiah in those three verses.

22) Jesus said, “whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire” (Matthew 5:22). Yet, he himself did so repeatedly, as Matthew 23:17-19 and Luke 11:40 & 12:20 show. Clearly Jesus should be in danger of hell too?

23) Does Jesus support peace, or war? Matthew 5:39 “Resist not evil, but whoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.” Also note Matthew 6:38-42 & 26:52 where Jesus teaches non-resistance, Non-violence. Now read (Luke 22:36-37) Where Jesus commands people to take arms for a coming conflict. (John 2:15) Jesus uses a whip to physically drive people out of the temple.

24) Matthew 15:24 Jesus said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of lsrael,”. This would of course mean that he is here only to save the Jews. The scriptures repeatedly back up this notion that Christ is savior to the Jews and not the gentiles (see Romans 16:17, Revelations 14:3-4 & John 10). The contradiction lies in what Jesus later tells his followers: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations” (Matthew 28:19).

25) Can we hate our kindred? Luke 14:26 Jesus says “If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brother, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he can not be my disciple.” John 3:15 “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer.” Also see Ephesians 6:22, 5:25, & Matthew 15:4

26) Even many of the staunchest defenders of Jesus admit that his comment in Matthew 10:34 (“I came not to send peace but a sword”) contradicts verses such as Matthew 26:52 (“Put up again thy sword into his place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword”).

27) Deuteronomy 24:1 & 21:10-14 all say that divorce is allowed for the simple reason if a “man no longer delighteth in his wife”. Yet Jesus comes along and breaks his father’s law by saying in Matthew 5:32 that adultery is the only way one can be divorced.

28) In Mark 8:35 Jesus said: “…but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s the same shall save it.” How could Jesus have said this when there was no gospel when he lived? The gospel did not appear until after his death.

29) Matthew 6:13 Jesus recites a revised prayer and states, “Don’t bring us into temptation.” God is the cause of everything, even Satan. God has been leading people into temptation since the Garden of Eden. Otherwise, the trees of life and knowledge would have never been there.

30) Matthew 12:1-8 Jesus thinks it’s okay to break his father’s laws, by breaking the Sabbath day. He states that he is basically exempt for such fiascoes and that he is Master of the Sabbath.

31) John 3:17 Jesus contradicts himself when he says, “God didn’t send his son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.” Jesus seems to forget his own stories.

32) James 4:3 If your prayers are not answered, it’s your own damned fault. This is in direct contradiction to where Jesus says “seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be known to you”.

33) “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is true” John 8:14, “If I bear witness of myself it is not true.” John 5:31

34) “I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” (Matthew 28:20), versus “For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always” (Matthew 26:11 , Mark 14:7, John 12:8) and “Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am thither ye cannot come” (John 7:34). Is this the kind of friend one can rely on?

35) “And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her” (Mark 10:11 & Luke 6:18), versus “And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery” (Matthew 19:9). In the book of Matthew, Jesus said a man could put away his wife if one factor– fornication–is involved. In Mark and Luke he allowed no exceptions.

36) Jesus is quoted: “Judge not, and ye shall be not judged; condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven” (Luke 6:37 & Matthew 7:1), versus “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24). Jesus stated men are not to judge but, then, allowed it under certain conditions. As in the case of divorce, he can’t seem to formulate a consistent policy.

37) “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46, (also note the time before crucification where Jesus prays for the “cup to passeth over me”) versus “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, for this purpose I have come to this hour” (John 12:27 RSV). Jesus can’t seem to decide whether or not he wants to die. One moment he is willing; the next he isn’t.

38) In Luke 23:30 (“Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, fall on us, and to the hills, cover us”) Jesus quoted Hosea 10:8 (“…and they shall say to the mountains, cover us; and to the hills, fall on us”). And, like Paul, he often quoted inaccurately. In this instance, he confused mountains with hills.

39) “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they know him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist” (Matthew 17:11-13). John the Baptist was beheaded, but Jesus was not. And what did John the Baptist restore? Nothing!

40) We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18 & 36) yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matthew 19:16-18 (saving by works)-if he wanted eternal life.

41) In Luke 12:4 Jesus told his followers to “Be not afraid of them that kill the body.” But Matthew 12:14-16, John 7:1, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54, & Mark 1:45 show that Jesus consistently feared death. Jesus went out of his way to hide, run, and attempt escape from the Roman and Jewish authorities.

42) Matthew 5:28 says to sin in “your heart” is considered a sin in itself. The messiah is supposed to be God incarnate, not able to sin, yet in Matthew 4:5 & Luke 4:5-9, Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert, which is sinning in his heart. Jesus also took upon all the sins of the world during his crucifixion, so how can it be said that “Jesus was the perfect man without sin”? This would lead one to believe he was not the Messiah.

43) Jesus told us to “Love your enemies; bless them that curse you,” but ignored his own advice by repeatedly denouncing his opposition. Matthew 23:17 (“Ye fools and blind”), Matthew 12:34 (“0 generation of vipers”), and Matthew 23:27 (“. . . hypocrites . . . ye are like unto whited sepulchres. . .”) are excellent examples of hypocrisy.

44) Did the people of Jesus’ generation see any signs? (Matthew 12:38-40) Jesus announced that no signs would be given to that generation except the Resurrection itself. (Mark 8:12-13) Jesus announced that no signs would be given to that generation. (Mark 16:20) They went out preaching, and the Lord confirmed the word through accompanying signs. (John 20:30) Jesus provided many wonders and signs. (Acts 2:22) Jesus provided many wonders and signs. (Acts 5:12 & 8:13) many signs and wonders were done through the apostles.

45) Jesus commands the disciples to go into Galilee immediately after the resurrection. Matthew 28:10 Jesus commands the disciples to “tarry in Jerusalem” immediately after the resurrection.

46) Matthew 28:18 & John 3:35 both tell that Jesus said he could do anything. Yet Mark 6:5 says Jesus was not all powerful.

47) Jesus says in Luke 2:13-14 that he came to bring peace on earth. Matthew 10:34 Jesus back peddles and says he did not come to bring peace on earth.

48) Did Christ receive testimony from man? “Ye sent unto John and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man.” John 5:33-34 “And ye shall also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.” John 15:27

49) Christ laid down his life for his friends. John 15:13 & 10:11 Christ laid down his life for his enemies. Romans 5:10

50) Deuteronomy 23:2 says that bastards can not attend church unto the tenth generation. If Jesus was spawned by Mary and Jehovah as the Bible claims then he is technically a bastard and should not be the leader of the church.

Ron says:

I am talking here about Jesus as historical and divine and I do not know much about the OT and history or prophecy therein. I find the life and works, deeds and words of Jesus matchless and sinless.

Follow Him and you will have all answers.
You will have compassion on fellow humans regardless of their belief systems. You will have genuine compassion on the homeless, poor, hungry, needy, old, orphans, destitute.

Check yourself and pass through your city’s downtown and see whether you get any compelling urge to reach for your wallet/purse to help the needy or buy some food for the homeless?
If you are engrossed in your own busy schedule and don’t have time or have any reasons whatsoever (except that you are destitute yourself) not to help then you don’t have the Holy Spirit in you.
You need to invite Christ in your life and you will be touched by the Holy Spirit and suddenly you will feel this compassion and urge to help. May the peace of Christ be with you.

If you REACH OUT to the Holy Spirit and if HE DOES NOT RESPOND then you are justified in not believing in HIM. By not even trying to reach out to the Holy Spirit you are obviously not justified.

If you are filled and indoctrinated with hatred for people having other belief systems, then no amount of facts can change your view.

It took courage and humility for Anthony Flew to accept the DNA evidence and become a theist. But as Ali Sina said that as a materialist nothing can change you.

Inventions and discoveries have happened in many cultures as also in the Judeo-Christian cultures. But history tell us that larger portion of these inventions and discoveries have happened in the Judeo-Christian culture and Western World.

The Industrial revolution, discoveries of elements, compounds, chemicals, nuclear energy, processes, automobiles, submarines, aircraft, hovercrafts, vaccinations, surgery, printing, farming revolution, computers, communication technology etc. happened in the Judeo-Christian culture and Western World. Even the internet which we are using as we write/read is a western invention but being developed with help from all over the world.

When I say that major contribution to science and technology was by the Western world does not mean that nothing happened in the other cultures. It means it was more significant in the western world. In fact the treatment for most of the diseases prevalent more in the non-Western world like cholera, typhoid, leprosy, malaria, rabies, small pox, polio, hepatitis, measles, pneumonia, tetanus, yellow fever, whooping cough etc. was found by Judeo-Christian cultures.

Again do not club the Abrahamic faiths together. Islam has contributed to science but less in comparison to other cultures.

Take the case of Korea which got divided into North Korea and South Korea after the 1953 Korean war ended and the division lines were redrawn. Most Christians from North Korea fled to the south and now the South had a 2% Christian population. After the war North Korea enforced atheism and tolerated Buddhism.

But South Korea allowed all religions to thrive and within 50 years Christianity became the majority religion and Buddhism declined and the country became the 13TH largest economy in the world by GDP where else North Korea became the 115th in rank.

In terms of GDP per capita South Korea had a GDP per capita of $28101 for 2014 and ranked 30th.
North Korea had a GDP of $583 per capita for 2014 and ranked 176.
(And just for record purposes India had a GDP per capita of $1627 and ranked 143).

As the cultures were same we can definitely say that atheism and communism have throttled North Korea but Christianity and free markets it espouses have benefitted South Korea.

You will find the highest rate and high availability of pedophilia and child prostitution in Buddhist countries (like Thailand, Taiwan, Myanmar, Cambodia, Laos ). Also the highest rates of suicide. I don’t want to start another debate on this subject but it seems it is something to do with spiritual laws of Buddhism.

Mohamed said: Kill your enemies for your faith. Your reward is in heaven
Rama and Krishna said: Kill your enemies as it is your duty even if they are your kin (don’t forgive them are doing justice). You are killing only their body but not the soul.
Buddha said: Don’t kill.
Christ said: Don’t kill but bless those who curse you. Bless your enemies.
Christ goes a longer distance in forgiveness than other religious personalities.

I am not forcing Christ on anyone but found that when I accepted Christ I found myself to be more compassionate, started supporting orphans, became more charitable towards all causes involving suffering of humans whether Christian or not.

Your hate towards others will disappear and you will feel love and compassion for them. I did not expect these changes.

It takes courage and humility to invite Christ and try Him especially when you have never accepted Him.

Sakat says:

sorry typo it is indeed ‘Higher Ground’

Atheist says:

The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is filled with numerous stories of animal and human sacrifice. God, we are told, likes the pleasing aroma of burning flesh. Animal sacrifice is much more common than human sacrifice, but both occur and are “pleasing to the Lord”.

Genesis, the first book of the Bible, has Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God. “Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you.” (Genesis 22:1-18) Abraham takes his own son up on a mountain and builds an altar upon which to burn him. He even lies to his son and has him help build the altar. Then Abraham ties his son to the altar and puts a knife to his throat. He then hears God tell him this was just a test of his faith. However, God still wanted to smell some burnt flesh so he tells Abraham to burn a ram.

Even though he didn’t kill his son, it is still an incredibly cruel and evil thing to do. If Abraham did that today he would be in jail serving a long sentence as someone’s prison-bitch. It amazes me how Christians see this story as a sign of God’s love. There is no love here, just pure unadulterated evil.

The first seven chapters of Leviticus have extensive rules regarding animal and food sacrifices. These offerings are supposed to be burnt so that God can smell them. If you read through these it seems clear to me that the priests were getting their followers to make a big feast for them every week. The priests were very particular about what kind of food to bring and how to prepare it.

Even more peculiar is God’s obsession with first-born sons. In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said “Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me.” Later it says that you can redeem (replace) an ass with a sheep and that you must redeem a child for an unspecified price. It is clear from the context that “consecrate” means a burning sacrifice. These priests are guilty of theft and kidnapping. Since any sins in the Old Testament were punishable by death, these priests used the threat of death to extort food and money from their followers. What do we call a scum-bag that threatens to kill your kids unless you pay a ransom? A kidnapper! If these priests were alive today they would be in prison with Abraham.

However, in Leviticus 27:28-29, the Lord allows for no redemptions. “Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death.” I must admit that I am a bit confused by this contradiction, but it might only apply to slaves in your possession. Not that it makes any difference. A human sacrifice is a human sacrifice, and it is just sick.

Bible Passages About Ritual Human Sacrifice

Jephthah Burns His Daughter

“At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, “If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

“So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. “My daughter!” he cried out. “My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back.” And she said, “Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin.” “You may go,” Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah’s daughter.” (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)

God Commands Burning Humans

[The Lord speaking] “The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel.” (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

Josiah and Human Sacrifice

At the LORD’s command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD’s command, he shouted, “O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you.” (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)

He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: “You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant.” There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah’s reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD’s Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)

Human Sacrifice

Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)

Child Sacrifice

And this became a hidden trap for mankind, because men, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared. Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but they live in great strife due to ignorance, and they call such great evils peace. For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs… (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV) The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.

Humans are Fuel for Fire

As for you, son of man, prophesy: Thus says the Lord GOD against the Ammonites and their insults: A sword, a sword is drawn for slaughter, burnished to consume and to flash lightning, because you planned with false visions and lying divinations to lay it on the necks of depraved and wicked men whose day has come when their crimes are at an end. Return it to its sheath! In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you. I will pour out my indignation upon you, breathing my fiery wrath upon you, I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)

Burn Nonbelievers

“Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

A.H. says:

“Evidence are open and plenty ,the instrument called “logic” and “rationality” is there at your disposal to gauge my statement ,don’t close your eyes to reality.”

More mere assertions…..facts please!

steve says:

@Ron
“Whenever there is a cross-breed across species (e.g. horse and donkey and not dog and wolf) the product is generally sterile” That’s because they are different species. Perhaps you haven’t thought about what a species is, a species is a group of organism capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. Imagine that a group of people went off and lived on a isolated Island, and after a thousand generations they developed unusual sexual organs such that they could only breed with those on the Island and not anyone else. There you have a new species it’s not difficult.

“Most mutations are generally sterile and die early. There are very few who can survive and you and I can debate forever. But that is beside the point.” It’s important to remember that evolution is something that happens to populations and not individuals. The likelihood of an individual surviving and reproducing is a function of its genes, and the environment in which it finds itself. Reproduction does not result in an exact duplicate, but a mixing of an individuals genes with another. So “successful” individuals change the gene pool in a certain direction. “Unsuccessful” individuals were directions in which the gene pool does not tend to go; the information in those genes does not replicate in the next generation. Evolution is the change of the entire gene pool over time. Harmful mutations will be selected out of the gene pool while mutations that increase an individuals survival and reproductive fitness will become more common in the gene pool.

“Anthony Flew (he wrote more books and did more debates than Hitchens and Dawkins combined) did accept theism after investigating DNA. Oscar Wilde left his hedonistic life and did accept Christianity in his last days. Svetlana (daughter of Stalin) became a Christian despite an atheistic indoctrination and upbringing. Madalyn Murray O’Hair the most famous atheist woman in US had raised her son in atheism and anti-Christian indoctrination but when he was an adult he became a Christian pastor. He considered his mother’s views and hate for Christians and Jesus as the worst place anybody could be born.” Showing that notable or famous people share your belief is not argument and is a logical fallacy. Also I am not an atheist because I have a hatred of Christians and their God, I am an atheist because I don’t see any evidence for any God and certainly not any evidence for the claims of the Christian religion which are illogical and ridiculous.

“Ask and reach out to the Holy Spirit and he will show you the truth, the way and life. Try Jesus and try the prayer mentioned in my earlier post for a week and if there is no reply from the Holy Spirit” Again your God can contact me any time he wants to, yet me and billions like me have never had any contact from him. Why is this? Perhaps because he doesn’t exist?

“If there is no reply from the Holy Spirit you’re always free to revert back to your Anti-Christian and Anti-theist or apatheistic views.” So those billions that don’t have any contact from the Holy Spirit are fully justified in not believing in him?

Sakat says:

@Ron
Ron say’s
/Judaism and Christianity has given the most positive contribution to science, technology today. (You cannot lump all Abrahamic religions to have caused violence. You have to single out Islam for that purpose of reason for violence).

Majority of the inventions and discoveries have been by Jews and Christians, next is by atheists and followed by others. Jews have won the highest number of Nobel prizes in the world. Next is Christians and third are atheists, followed by others./

Well , I did a little research and what you said is not accurate. Buddhists or cultures heavily influenced by Buddhism did invent and discover many scientific things, many centuries before they were discovered or invented in the west. Actually there were a few Buddhists who came up with some ideas about atoms, for example, that were pretty close to how things were. (About as close as the Greeks came). If I remember correctly that was around India. Also, if you look at China during the Tang dynasty, Buddhism was at it’s peak and there were more Buddhists in China at that time than other times. Buddhism was flourishing and it was also the Golden age of Buddhism in China as well as the golden age of China in general. During that time, the Chinese were the actual inventors of gun powder (used mainly in fireworks), of porcelain, and they came up with printing (mainly block printing) before the west did. (Also invented playing cards). They also came up with clockwork devices before the west did. They developed sophisticated understandings of astronomy, as well as chemistry and medicine. They created waterproof dust repellent cream, fireproof cement, they drilled deep boreholes to “transport natural gas from bamboo pipelines to stoves where cast iron evaporation pans boiled brine to extract salt” and they invented the first type of rotary fan (which was naturally manual). They also developed the first type of “gas cylinder”. However, since the west became the dominant culture in the world (as of now) many inventions of other nations, countries and cultures are forgotten, especially if the west also made the same invention, although later. No religion is THE SAME as science, they are different. And just because a person who happened to be Christian or a person who happened to be Muslim came up with some great scientific ideas- well it doesn’t mean that it suddenly means that the religion itself is scientific! Many scientists, for example, were persecuted or killed by the church for their discoveries (that the sun is the center of the solar system, that the earth is round, evolution, etc). Even the lightening rod, which we used to protect people from having their house hit by lightening, was something that the church fought because it was originally thought to be “the anger of god”. Christianity, if anything, stood in opposition to scientific discovery, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Islam was too. In fact, I think the church’s very opposition to science and technological advancement is the very reason the west in particular developed so many inventions and scientific advanced: When something is attempted to be repressed, it tends to come back stronger (especially if the repressed really believes something). It’s the same thing as arguments: When two people argue, both sides dig in their heels, both sides finish the argument believing their original ideas more strongly than beforehand. (I.e. arguing with you about the benefit of Buddhism will, in truth, only strengthen your belief that Buddhism is bad. That’s just the nature of things. You can observe this working in action all the time, if you have eyes to see it.) There’s even a study I read about this. So actually, I know I will never convince you of anything, just as I know you will never convince me of anything, because that is how these things work. (I write this more for others than Ron, others who haven’t made up their minds yet). When I say that Buddhism is like a science I say that it functions like a science: It finds it’s truths like a science. In other words, Buddhism bases most of it’s beliefs off of observations and experience. There are a few beliefs, such as rebirth, which are not based on experience, but that belief is extrapolated from other observations. Furthermore, like a science, Buddhism is willing and able to throw away beliefs and ideas that don’t work or that are proven to be inaccurate. This approach of observation of the present moment, and the present time, and the present rules of reality is what Buddhism does. And it is what makes it most like a science. The Abrahamic faiths, on the other hand, find it’s truths like a history. Like history, every truth it has must be trusted entirely on authority. (We would never know anything about the past- who our presidents were, what our countries did, what wars were fought, what major events occurred, etc) if we did not trust that those who came before us had knowledge that we don’t. For example, for me as an Indian, I never lived through World War 2. I never saw it happen. I must trust the generation before me- my parents and grandparents- when they tell me that it happened. If I did not trust in their authority, I could claim that world war 2 never occurred. But I believe that it did, and I only believe this based on authority. So that is what I mean when I say that Buddhism functions like a science. I think history is great, and much of what people say happened in the past is likely true. My problem with the Abrahamic faiths is that, the further back in time you go, the less trustworthy people become. The less you can trust authority. This is for several reasons: First, people back then didn’t live very long. Almost all of Jesus disciples were teenagers. Mary herself was only 17 when she had Jesus. Are we to trust teenagers and base our entire reality on what they claim Jesus said or did? Living to your twenties made you an older adult and thirty was pushing it. Also, Mohammed didn’t even pen the Koran himself, or so I just read, since many people said he couldn’t read or write. Jesus didn’t write the bible either, it was written almost a century after his death. So we are trusting on the authority of adults who were considered old at thirty and considered adults when they were teenagers! We know now that teenagers brains are not fully developed, and I certainly would not trust a teenagers say so on extremely important matters in my life.
Second- how many people have heard of the game called “Telephone”? It is a childhood game many people know. You take several children, maybe ten, and put them in a line. You tell the first child a phrase, and that child repeats it to the child on his/her left. Then that child repeats it to the child on his/her left, until you get to the end of the line. What happens? The message always comes back garbled. Inaccurate. Completely changed from the original. So if the bible had a hundred years where people orally transmitted it like telephone, well, the message was likely very very very garbled! Now the Koran was, I think, written in Mohammad’s lifetime, but still that being said, he did not write it. That means others heard it and played telephone among themselves until someone wrote it down. Now, the game “telephone” is more accurate when something is written down, but even then, people can accidentally replace words, mess up letters that change meaning, or even occasionally purposefully change something. We have over a thousand years of this written form of telephone being played out for both religions! Finally, there was a serious lack of understanding thousands of years ago about how things work, scientifically. People believed in magic and miracles, and when someone said “I’m going to make the rain come” and then the rain came, people thought it magic. When lightening struck, it was magic. When someone recovered from an illness that seemed to kill them, magic (even if the recovery was entirely explainable). People believed in magic and superstition because they had no understanding of how science works. They functioned using transductive logic. Meaning, they saw a specific example followed by a specific example and believed the first thing caused the second. (My favorite example of this was a real even where a toddler crashed into a telephone pole. At that exact moment, all the lights in the entire area went out. The toddler was absolutly convinced that he caused the black out.). This transductive logic confused people a lot, and they saw magic and miracles where it did not occur. They also believed demons literally walked the earth, as did angels, so it was not so strange to hear someone claim about seeing angels or hearing the voice of god. Furthermore, they had no understanding of mental illness, which is a biggy. If someone saw an angel with wings fly down in heaven right now, or heard the voice of god out in the desert talking to them (as a disembodied voice) we would say they are hallucinating, that it is schizophrenia, or another mental illness. (Some mental illnesses allow people to function except for brief periods of time where they hallucinate). So if people hallucinated, and said they literally heard the voice of god talking to them, people thousands of years ago believed that the voice of god really did talk to them, and they didn’t think it was all in the person’s head. After all, if a person said they saw an angel flying down to earth, why would they disbelieve them? They had no understanding of science, no understanding of mental illness whatsoever. This goes for the time of both Christianity and Islam. Hence, these things make people who lived at those times very unreliable as sources of authority. But some people believe it because they think, well, it was so long ago, and old people are wise, so it must be true. But I think today, we are much wiser about reality then we were thousands of years ago. I don’t think you are going to have as many religions popping up today as back then, unless they are somehow based on logic or unless it’s a charlatan or it’s a mentally ill person that refused to take medications and somehow convinces others despite this (which would be much harder to do). Here’s another example of how unreliable people were in the past- in the past there were many people who easily became Christian saints (in the catholic church) but its rare to have new saint now. Why? Because one of the requirements to becoming a saint is that the person has to have been shown to work a miracle. We see less miracles these days then we did in the past, because we understand reality (thanks to science) better. So it’s thus harder to make someone a saint because that very requirement is very hard to meet. So, when I say that Buddhism is like a science, I am not talking about the scientists who just happened to be Buddhist (or the Christians or Muslims who just happened to be scientists). I am talking about how the religion finds its truth. Does it observe reality and observe experiences and develop it’s truths that way? (Buddhism AND science) Or does it base its truths about the world in a historical way? (If so you have to be able to trust people of the past, and as I have shown, people thousands of years ago are far less trustworthy than they are today. Thus if you choose a historically based religion, you are putting your beliefs on shaky ground because the authority that you trust- the people who came before you- are not very trusty worthy at all).

Indian says:

Read here
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hinduism

Indian says:

Westerners are studying Quantum Physics and are embracing Sanatan Dharma in many ways.
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/04/11/vedanta-science-self-discovery/

Ron says:

@Steve,
You don’t seem to be a knowledge seeker but seem to be a skeptic and skeptics never believe regardless of the evidence.

Whenever there is a cross-breed across species (e.g. horse and donkey and not dog and wolf) the product is generally sterile. Most mutations are generally sterile and die early. There are very few who can survive and you and I can debate forever. But that is beside the point.

You are free to believe in your anti-Christian, anti-theistic or apatheistic views. Anthony Flew (he wrote more books and did more debates than Hitchens and Dawkins combined) did accept theism after investigating DNA. Oscar Wilde left his hedonistic life and did accept Christianity in his last days. Svetlana (daughter of Stalin) became a Christian despite an atheistic indoctrination and upbringing. Madalyn Murray O’Hair the most famous atheist woman in US had raised her son in atheism and anti-Christian indoctrination but when he was an adult he became a Christian pastor. He considered his mother’s views and hate for Christians and Jesus as the worst place anybody could be born.

Ask and reach out to the Holy Spirit and he will show you the truth, the way and life. Try Jesus and try the prayer mentioned in my earlier post for a week and if there is no reply from the Holy Spirit you’re always free to revert back to your Anti-Christian and Anti-theist or apatheistic views.

Ron says:

@steve and other atheists.
You have not seen all the videos in its entirety and are itching to argue. Please do so. Also even I felt that majority don’t get any contact from the Holy Spirit but learnt that everyone who tries will get contact. If you try and reach for Him, be sure He WILL ALWAYS respond.

Anyways I am giving you below reason for intelligent design which made the one of the biggest and foremost atheist of the 20th century into a theist.

Explosions in a printing press do not create a dictionary . However controlled the explosion is or how many times you explode and whatever length of time you take.
A dictionary is designed and then only it carries information or knowledge.

The human DNA Is in every cell of our body and the cell with DNA is designed and carries all the information it needs to replicate itself to form cells, tissues, organs, traits etc and is unique (no two DNA are alike) to every human born and was born. This is true of even of animals. This three-billion-lettered DNA structure that belongs only to you. This code identifies you and continually instructs your cells’ behavior.

It is a language with a coding and decoding mechanism (thus it is designed)
The Language of DNA
•4-Character Alphabet -A,T,C,G (comparable to binary 1 and 0 in computers)
•DNA is an Encoding / Decoding Mechanism
• Linguistics Analysis (Analogy)
• DNA Language
• Nucleotide Character
• Codon Letter
• Gene Word
• Operon Sentence
• Regulon Paragraph

Dr Francis Sellers Collins who was led the human Genome project and was NIH director said “DNA is the language of God” (Was atheist before and then became a Christian)

Dr James Tour the worlds most famous Nano technologist and scientist (he registers One patent every week!!!) who works building molecules said: “Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science it will bring you closer to God”

Anthony Flew was the most famous and foremost atheist in the world on the atheist circuit before Hitchens and Dawkins came on the scene with his “God Delusion” book. He was a lifelong atheist and became a theist in his old age and he said after he studied the DNA and the evidence.

“. . . biologists’ investigation of DNA has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved. . . .
But there is no law of nature that instructs matter to produce end-directed, self-replicating entities. . . .
The only satisfactory explanation for the origin of such ‘end-directed, self-replicating’ life as we see on earth is an infinitely intelligent Mind.”
(Source: Antony Flew. 2007. There is a God: How the world’s most notorious atheist changed his mind. New York: HarperCollins. pp. 123, 131f.)

So it’s easy to conclude that DNA is not a naturally occurring pattern. It is a super-intelligent design. Infinitely more superior than our computer designed codes.

As it is a design it must have an extremely INTELLIGENT DESIGNER who is infinitely more knowledgeable than the objects (we humans and all life) he created. This Intelligent designer or God has certainly designed all life.

Ron says:

@Sakat and others
Judaism and Christianity has given the most positive contribution to science, technology today. (You cannot lump all Abrahamic religions to have caused violence. You have to single out Islam for that purpose of reason for violence).

Majority of the inventions and discoveries have been by Jews and Christians, next is by atheists and followed by others. Jews have won the highest number of Nobel prizes in the world. Next is Christians and third are atheists, followed by others.

Wars were there in all parts of the world before Judeo-Christianity spread around the world. Man is sinful in nature and wars existed in India, North America, Africa etc. In Africa and Asia (included India) every tribe/clan/kingdom regularly fought for resources, tax and territory against their neighbouring tribe/clan/kingdom. In fact they were so disunited and continually fought each other that the British and other Europeans could defeat them easily. It was the British Raj which united Indian subcontinent under one flag. If the British had not colonised and built a railway system then India would still be a land of divided kingdoms.

The world’s largest practised apartheid system (caste system and untouchability) was in India and is still in practised a lot in India. I have visited many places in Africa, Asia and the Indian subcontinent and gone to temples, gurudwaras etc. and the rural places and have personally seen the severe discrimination meted out to the people of the lower castes. I as a Tourist did get better treatment because I was paying more than they asked and though I was restricted from many places, I always met some religious touts who demanded extra money for special privileges of entry. Slavery/bonded labour is outlawed in the whole world but still exists in Sub-Saharan Africa and parts of rural India.

The banking and bankruptcy laws wherein the son doesn’t have to perpetually pay the fathers/forefathers/brothers unpaid loan was started by Christians. Before that in India if a man took a loan and he could not pay the interest and the principal (his son and then grandson would have to pay it). Same thing in Africa, Child sacrifices, bride burning was supported by ethnic religions in Indian subcontinent and Africa.

It was the British who banned the Sati (bride-burning), Pindhari and Thugs movement (religious robbery and killing of travellers), encouraged widow –remarriage, had laws cancelling feudal loans, forbidding child labor, temple prostitution etc. I was surprised to see child labor thriving in Indian subcontinent & Africa. Crime against women and children is very high in India as well as Nepal (of course Africa also).

Go to Khajuraho, India and you will see animal sex, orgies, anal sex etc. The Indian Government guides there say that sex in any form was not taboo in pre-British ancient India and India was a free society where everything sexual happened but the British made it a criminal offence. Now whether you want to call it violence against animal and women is your take. Polygamy was highly practised in Africa and Asia (including India). Polyandry was more in India.

There were no war conventions wherein use of child soldiers was rampant in Africa, Arabia which goes on still today. War is bad but a little sanity to war was brought about by the Geneva conventions, Red Cross , St John ambulance etc. which were started by Christianity.

I know you may give me examples of Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo etc. but those are isolated incidents which happen more frequently in Asia and Africa but are generally under-reported.

In Africa and Asia (including India) the children’s milk, polio and small pox vaccines, immunizations etc. were funded a lot by Western Christians. If you are an Asian/African and you see that polio or small pox vaccination mark on your forehand and are fortunate that you did not get any of those disease then be thankful instead of spewing hate and judgement.

You should note that historically Islam has been victorious against pagan (idol worshipping) forces, atheist /secular forces (Soviets) but have only been stopped/defeated by Judeo-Christian forces.

Even in the Kashmir valley where insurgency is high and the minority Hindus have left, it is the evangelists and missionaries who are boldy going and preaching despite the existential threat to their lives.

You need to single out Islam for violence but pray that they see the light of Christ and come to his saving grace. You don’t need to eradicate them but change them with the love of Christ.

Sakat says:

@Ron
Let me tell you bluntly,Abrahamic religions are the cause for the mess (violence) this world is facing today.INDIVIDUAL’S EXPERIENCE is not a guarantee for consideration in intellectual world,where every thing is practically experimented before being accepted?.What is your practical experiment with Jesus ,and how it has helped you in surviving in this world till date.Rest is always……………depend on your nod!!!

Indian says:

Dr. John Hagelin ( Ph.D Quantum Physics) addresses conference on Vedas and Quantum Physics.
http://physicsdaily.net/dr-john-hagelin-veda-and-physics-the-science-and-technology-of-the-unified-field/

Indian says:

Mr. Sina
Read below to know Vedic Rishis ( composers of Vedas Upanishads )
http://www.projectglobalawakening.com/2014/04/17/the-seven-sages/

Indian says:

Read here
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/07/29/influence-vedic-philosophy-nikola-teslas-idea-free-energy/

Indian says:

Mr. Sina
Quantum Physics has proved that Non-duality ( Advait), reincarnation are true and has disproved resurrection, one-life philosophy , eternal suffering for non believers and eternal enjoyment for believers.

https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/God/Nils/God_and_Quantum_Physics

Ron says:

Did Jesus exist as a historical person. See the below an extract from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus.

You will also find lots of historical evidence below. You can reject the same out of and hateful mindset.
“There is near unanimity among scholars that Jesus existed historically, although biblical scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the Gospels. While scholars have sometimes criticized Jesus scholarship for religious bias and lack of methodological soundness, with very few exceptions, such critics do support the historicity of Jesus, and reject the theory that Jesus never existed, known as the Christ myth theory. “
Even the Dalai Lama does not dispute the historical existence of Jesus but says that Jesus was an enlightened master. Sam Harris, Anthony Flew, Christopher Hitchens and Dawkins do not dispute the historicity of Jesus.

The Bible has been year by year consistently the largest selling book in the world since printing presses were made. In the 15th century.
It is the largest translated book in the world (even in Braille, Audio etc.).
No other scriptures are fully in Braille. Christians believe that Jesus is alive and touches us if we seek him as experienced by these medical doctors (mentioned in earlier post) who are NOT hallucinating but may be treating hallucinators (patients).

Mohamed’s disciples killed for Islam and for Mohammed and died as a result. Mohamed said for establishing peace, you have to kill people.

Krisna said for establishing peace, do your duty and kill your kin. Krisna and Ram’s disciples were instructed to kill for whatever reason and got killed. (Though they are considered mythological figures )

Buddha said for establishing peace, run away from people/world. Buddha did not command to kill, did not command to forgive but commanded to stay away from the world and focus on personal spiritual enlightenment. (that is why even in Buddhist majority countries the largest number of orphanages, Aids and leprosy care homes, homes for the destitute are run by Christians wherein the inmates are Buddhist).

Christ said for establishing peace, follow me, love your enemies, bless them and forgive them.

Jesus ‘disciples laid down their lives (they were killed by non-believers) for their faith and did not kill anyone because Jesus did not command to kill but commanded them to forgive. Help the poor, heal the sick, blind and care for the old, widows and the orphans.

The highest number of first adoptions of orphans in the world is done by Christians.
More than 85% of second orphan adoptions around the world is done by Christians. You will extremely rarely or never see Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Asian, South Asian Parents doing second adoptions.

The highest number of fostering of multiple kids (taking the burden of taking care of kids whose parents are in prison or rehab or invalid or dead) in the western world is done by Christian parents. You will extremely rarely or never see Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Asian, South Asian Parent fostering kids.

The majority of the AIDS and Leprosy homes in the world and specially in the third world is run by Christians wherein the majority of the inmates are non-Christians.

The highest charity raised for the care and healing of orphans, widows and the sick is done by Christians.

No other faith comes near to doing good to mankind than what Christianity does.

You may argue by saying what about the crusades and world wars and colonization etc. These were political incidents in history and not espoused or commanded by Jesus.

By your logic of saying that anything ancient is hearsay and does not hold in a court of law applies to all ancient religions and so we can say that all of them never existed.

You said “Blasphemy is the worst sin in Judaism’s eyes. Besides, if God exists why would He allow him to be punished if He were innocent does not make any sense.” According to some religious Jews it was Blasphemy but according to other Jews (Jesus followers) it was foretold that the Messiah would come and die and rise up again.
This was difficult for me to understand and also for Dr Subodh Pandit and only when the Holy Spirit touches you (read the gospel of John first then later please read Mathew, Mark, Luke and the Acts and the Epistles) will you understand that Christ died for our sins.

You will then feel a compassion for the poor, sick and the needy and pangs of hunger for the hungry and not hatred for Christians and Muslim or others who do not believe in your belief system.

In Addis Ababa many children (orphans) live in sewers for 4 decades. Many Muslims, Hindu businessmen, Buddhist businessmen, secular businessmen, atheists etc. passed by but never did it occur to them that we could help this teenage orphans. It took only one Christian who traversed the area for the first time and felt the compassion and put his own money and went broke but rented a home for them and then established an orphanage as God met his needs.

There are basically 3 kinds of people:
1) Believers are people who will believe views regardless of the evidence.
2) Skeptics are people who will discard views regardless of the evidence.
3) Inquirers are people who will withhold judgement until they have reviewed the evidence and then focus on the weight of evidence.

Inquirers are the ones who have made by far the most advances in knowledge in science, history and philosophy and this is the position that has the best chance of providing the best benefits and the most truth.

I and I believe even Ali Sina are inquirers and so found the truth. If you are a skeptic then NO amount of evidence will change your belief system.

When you have Christ in you, believe me that you will feel guilty when you pass by a panhandler/homeless /orphan and not give a help.

When you don’t have Christ in you then you will rationalize and have every reason like being busy, no change, they-really-don’t-need-help, I-need-help-myself, I-better-give-it-to-my-relations/countrymen/religion, let-me-make-more-money-than-I-will-give etc.

I am reposting this video and I am sure that you have not seen it in its entirety or want to remain a skeptic otherwise you would have changed your stance/view even marginally.

READ THIS FIRST. There are so many Ph.Ds. who have shown mammoth amounts of evidence for Christianity that I have never seen any other worldview even begin to rival. This seminar is one of the more comprehensive treatments summarizing some of the vast evidence for Christianity and comparing it with atheism, certain philosophies (Relativism, Pluralism and Exclusivism), major world religions (Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism and Judaism) and some with modern Darwinism. Which follows the weight of evidence best? Dr. Pandit talks about how to answer the biggest questions in life that concern the choices we make every day, how we can find truth objectively, is eternal life realistic, whether there is evidence for God and which view of God is most accurate (most views of God have at least some truth in them). Dr. Subodh K Pandit describes his search for truth and how it led him from Hinduism, to atheism and eventually to Christianity.
Dr. Pandit’s path is a path many academics and others have followed. They kind of just heard about God when young, but not much about the evidence (since most pastors are not trained in scientific and historical evidence and evidence for God is banned from public schools for several reasons). Because of this, atheism appears much more rational on the surface, so they go that route for a while. But, as they study deeper into the historical and scientific evidence, they realize that atheism has very serious problems and has very serious conflicts with the many major lines of evidence. They see more and more that Christianity (and in some cases other religions), have some quite compelling evidence, better than any other worldview.

Searching for the truth is always valuable and beneficial in life. But, God does not condemn people for making honest mistakes in their conclusions. If we follow the evidence and truth we have, then God respects that, wink at ignorance and there will be quite a few in heaven that came to some different conclusions, but did their best to follow the truths they know (see Romans 2:12-16, Acts 17:21-30, etc.).
Parts 1-8 starts with the 1st question of whether God exists or not and rational proofs and crucial foundational philosophy (other parts will be uploaded soon), It is an open, honest, politically incorrect, and yet bold, pursuit after the ‘truth’ of the matter from a standpoint that is about as objective as you can hope to find. Some arguments may be familiar and some criticize them. But, he explains why they are very valid and compelling in some new ways.

The final conclusion regarding the Bible and Jesus is very compelling and difficult to deny. Check the notes for the outline (parts 1-8 are done, more will be coming soon).

This first video deals with the depressing nothingness of atheism and the atmosphere of investigation needed to follow the weight of evidence.

You need to see all the videos and check out his sound reasoning. It will surely stop you from doubting Jesus, spewing hate against all Christians and never feel compassion towards the needy, poor, underprivileged etc.

When you have Christ in you, believe me that you will feel guilty when you pass by a panhandler/homeless/orphan and not give a help.

When you don’t have Christ in you then you will rationalize and have every reason like being busy, no change, they-really-don’t-need-help, I-need-help-myself, I-better-give-it-to-my-relations/countrymen/religion, let-me-make-more-money-than-I-will-give etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0yIljyu9K8

Vishal Kumar says:

@A.H.& Ali Sina

Dear A.H., Are u Ali Sina’s associate? If not please do not answer me because I like to know Ali Sina point of view not Christian society belief regarding Jesus.
I post again for Ali Sina who was Jesus?

1. God or

2 Highly evolved spiritual soul who came willingly on this earth or.

3 Send by God to teach humans or .

4 Eventually his past Karma lead him to take birth on particular land to reach highest state of evolution & get Moksha.

moksha (Sanskrit: मोक्ष mokṣa, “liberation”) or mukti (Sanskrit: मुक्ति, “release”) is liberation from samsara, the cycle of death and rebirth or reincarnation and all of the suffering and limitation of worldly existence. It is a state of absolute freedom, peace and bliss.
The soul experiences ultimate bliss and lives under inspiration of God. This is the most satisfying and enjoyable state one can have.

Ron says:

Jesus was historical and existed is accepted by all reputed historians.
Many may suspect that He was either delusional, fraud or divine as he claimed.
But when you reason you will see that all of his disciples died were killed by non-believers and died a horrible death except for John who was exiled. (They would not choose to die for a lie or suffer such persecution for a fraud).
That movement changed the world, changed emperors, kings and rulers despite the highest persecution.
His standards of morality and forgiveness are/were higher than any other historical person. (e.g. bless your enemies, turn the other cheek around etc.) This is all by eyewitness accounts.

He was crucified for alleged blasphemy and not for any other sin or crime.

If he was delusional he could not espouse such high moral ethics, statements and standards.
If he was a fraud He would have recanted.
He did died and rose again as his tomb was empty and there were witnesses . Also nobody could survive a crucifixion which was always fatal as the Romans tested whether the crucified person was dead.

These twelve disciples mostly uneducated disciples went on to change the world. More than half of the world`s population believe he was holy (this includes all sects of Christianity, Islam, Druze, Sufis, Bahais etc.) Even several Hindus like Dr. Deepak Chopra, Vivekananda considers Him enlightened. (By the way Deepak Chopra also stated that stories of Ramayana and Mahabharata are mythological stories but give us very good values and inspiration.) Many Hindus and Buddhist consider him to be an incarnation of God and do revere him.

As such he was not delusional, nor fraud and was divine. Christians believe that He is Son of the Living God and nothing less. He is still alive and will answer you if you earnestly seek him. this was found by Dr Subodh Pandit, Dr Nabeel Qureshi, Dr Sudharshan, Dr Bekeerde, Dr Preeti Krishna and many others.

As for why are NDE`s changing the world look up the below. Have an open mind and watch without bias and it will change you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSnxPo9QZo8

Indian says:

Go through following link
http://www.metaphysicalmusing.com

Indian says:

Mr. Sina & faithfreedom2014
What do you think who composed Vedas Upanishads Bhagawadgita ? Were they Neanderthals or Homosapiens or spiritually advanced Aryas ?

why? says:

To Ali Sina:

There are some differences in what people experience. From the little that I understand it appears to me that our after death experience is somehow subjective to our belief system.
=================================================================

Do you think God (in afterlife) would propagate and strengthen falsehood through elaborate staged shows or would He rather teach souls truth? Is correct knowledge important for God or mere strengthening of delusions through elaborate drama for temporary comfort is important to Him?

Can one get true happiness through strengthening of delusions or belief systems? Would God really create such a Universe and that too an afterlife?

I think NOT. This is why I say all of these are hallucinations.

why? says:

testing

why? says:

There are some differences in what people experience. From the little that I understand it appears to me that our after death experience is somehow subjective to our belief system.
==================================================================

Isn’t it convenient that NDEs are subjective to one’s belief system? You don’t find anything strange in this.

If God exists, would He rather teach truth to each soul or would he just continue to keep souls in ignorance about true nature of afterlife through elaborate drama in afterlife?

Would God rather teach truth or propagate and stregthen falsehoods even in afterlife, just as it happens in physical life?

These questions should show you, that NDE about seeing non-verifiable things (subjective belief system) is a product of imagination and nothing else.

=============================================================
No I don’t think what the NDErs report is the product of hallucination. Apart from the fact that many of these stories are verifiable and I posted a dozen of them in Why I Believe in God and Afterlife Now, they are also consistent.
==========================================================

I would like to see verifiable ones. I am sure these verifiable events belong to this world only, otherwise they would NOT be verifiable.

faithfreedom2014 says:

Sakat,

You are showing the testimony of a few delusional cultists as evidence that Sai Baba was a holy man? So why not believe in Muslims? Does not their devotion to Muhammad prove he was a holy man?

Most so called Indian holy men, especially the modern ones who made millions and billions of money in donation were charlatan.

faithfreedom2014 says:

Ron, if Buddha is in hell then God is a malevolent sadist unworthy of worship.

I don’t say this month is laying. Probably he had this experience, however it is more likely that he was deceived. The alternative that God is a sadist, sick psychopath that sends even good people to hell for not believing in Jesus is so sickening that it is foolish to believe it.

Sakat says:

@Faith Freedom.Com
Don’t try to peddle from one leg to move ahead ,the result would be fatal.Nature has bestowed us with two legs ,be a proper businessman or else loss is inevitable. Here goes your recipe for your idle leg ,this is my gift for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahMI9pzjPj8

steve says:

@ Phoenix
“Notice that complete destruction of the brain or brain stem is not necessary for determining brain death” This is another example of you changing the subject, you claimed people come back from brain death remember? That has never happened nor is it possible.

“You’re asking for a physical location of consciousness,another ontological error” This is nonsense, so if someone asks you where you are, your response would be my consciousness has no physical location this is a ontological error?

“The problem with using universal statements is that you’ll have to either have universal opinion on your side or meet your burden of proof,both is highly unlikely in your case.” Do all things have a boundary? Yes they do they because if they did not we would not be able perceive it as a particular thing with its own identity.

“So do not use terms like “all”,”everything” and “none” because a student of logic recognize them instantly and you’ll be left unable to defend them.” This is your logic notice your own logic makes a universal statement?

“You have two options from a Materialist’s perspective,either the mind and brain are identical,sharing all the same properties and characteristics or the mind is an illusion” The mind is just software being run on the brain as far as I am concerned.

“This statement directly contradicts your universal statement above that nothing is permanent but now energy cannot be destroyed.When you make such blatant contradictions,I have to dismiss your claims” I am talking about particular forms of matter/energy such as humans, stars , trees, mosquitoes and so on. All the particular forms die but the matter/energy doesn’t die it just becomes something else. For example in a humans case the matter might be transformed into worm food.

“Consciousness can be aware of anything with or without a body.” It can’t be aware without a body.

“Attaching itself to a body is for functional purposes.” It just attaches itself? How then can it be be aware of the body and physical world? How for example does it receive information from the sensory organs?

“If it does not have a body then it cannot function permanntly in the physical plane and is mostly restricted to non-physical dimension” What can it do without a body in this non physical dimension?

“No,I do not call humans existent things because a) that’s degrading to our species and b) your definition is flawed per all dictionaries(english,medical and legal)” What should we call humans then if not existent beings or things?

“Ketamine was invented in the second half of the 2oth century and people have been reporting NDEs since the time of Plato.Clearly there’s a discrepancy,since the drug did not exist centuries ago” So it proves NDE is happening in the brain. Their is no reason why NDEs cannot be produced by naturally occurring drugs in the brain. You just deny that based on your belief in an afterlife not any logical or scientific reason.

“Well,even believers can be wrong” In this particular case their not wrong, all aspects of NDE can be experienced by taking ketamine.

“Atheist reject experience,logic and intuition as valid sources,we are once again left with the Atheist providing physical evidence against non-physical causation.” Well where then is the logical proof for the afterlife? I have asked this several times now and you have not answered it.

Materialsm is the epistemological position of empiricism.All knowledge is acquired via the senses and proven via the inductive method of science.You accept the method but reject the label.” I say all empirical knowledge is gained through experiment and observation, philosophical knowledge is gained by reasoning. So far you have provided neither. You have given no empirical evidence of an afterlife (indeed you seem to be saying it’s impossible to ever have empirical evidence for it), And you certainly haven’t given any logical proof.

Indian says:

Mr. Sina
Do you think our ancestors were Homo sapiens or Neanderthals or Apes?

Ron says:

@steve
You are missing the point by a very long shot as you have not understood his argument.
His logic says that in 5% of the body of knowledge (assuming it is 100%) we can claim that God does not exists as atheists claim. But in the 95% of the body of knowledge which we don’t know and so there exists a possibility that God exists.
You cannot refute that God cannot exist at all in the 95% of unknown body of knowledge. because if you refute it then it means you claim to have all the knowledge of the Universe which is a lie of course.
So with the possibility of God existing in the 95% unknown body of knowledge makes a person logically an agnostic.
The corollary to that was the two options of which a loving God to go to in the afterlife is obviously a better choice.
Hear and understand his logic again and you will find the logical argument at least in the first part sound and rational unless you are brainwashed anti-theist.
There is a difference between all the three: atheist, agnostic and anti-theist.

Ron says:

@Steve , Phoenix, Ali Sina,
check this man’s logic.
You can’t logically deny it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJpEQEs-6bs
Phoenix and Ali Sina are correct.

Ron says:

This video is about a Buddhist monk who had a NDE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO4covXqbvM

Watch it before you comment.

Phoenix says:

It is known to cause out of body experiences and visions so it’s not bullshit//

This from a respectable medical site:
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/anoxia/anoxia.htm
“During recovery, psychological and neurological abnormalities such as amnesia, personality regression, hallucinations,memory loss, and muscle spasms and twitches may appear, persist, and then resolve.”

None of the symptoms mentioned above match the NDE accounts.There is no memory loss,the personality is usually more matured after NDEs and unlike hallucinations which usually involve random meaningless events,NDEs are specifically personal and meaningful to the experiencer.
===
stimulation of the temporal lobe explains the description of NDEs something has to cause the stimulation of the temporal lobe it whether it’s endorphins or something else//
Oh I agree that something must cause these experiences but the ad hoc explanations or science of the gap arguments made by Michael and Susan does not fit the descriptions.
===
quote from the above link “The temporal lobe is likely to be crucial in NDEs, since it is sensitive to anoxia and its stimulation is known to induce hallucinations, memory flashbacks, body distortions, and out-of-body experiences” //

Your link quotes two biased Atheists whose data do not match that of objective medical sites.Rather cite medical sites than your fellow closed minded skeptics and we can look at the data together.
===
If I should question her explanation then what about the afterlife and the workings of the immaterial soul to explain NDE is that a scientific explanation?No it’s not.//

You mentioned “immaterial soul” and “scientific explanation” in the same breath.Science is the study of material causation.Why would I expect an immaterial soul to exhibit subatomic particle behavior?
Your presupposition remains fallacious,and that is that material existence is the only existence.How do you know this,what can you prove empirically or even mathematically and logically for these unstated assumptions?

steve says:

@Phoenix
“Tell me,how does death follow clinical death?I said once the patient is declared clinically dead…,your response is yes,then death will occur” Because clinical death is reversible, obviously if the person is not revived very quickly then the brain cells start to die and permanent brain damage and eventually death of the brain will occur.

“I made no mention of patients surviving complete bodily destruction (biological death).” So what are you arguing for then since you accept no one survives biological death?

“Egregiously false,this does not apply to all things.There are clearly well defined words,terms,objects and formulas that leave no room for ambiguity” Yes it does apply to all things, tell me where the absolute boundary for anything is? You won’t find it, boundaries are simple where we perceive differentiation.

“Are the properties of mind and brain the same?” Are the properties of Ice and water the same? Furthermore I never claimed brain and mind are the same thing with the same identity.

“Only consciousness does not die.” Everything dies.

“Consciousness is not human” So how can “consciousness” be “you” then since your human?

“It must be embodied in order to experience itself as human then undergo the processes of birth and death” You just said consciousness does not die now you say it undergoes the process of death.

Which is a fantasy because if mind were separate from the body it could never be aware of it//
“Your proof for that is what?” You are the one that believes the mind is a non physical entity and is completely separate and independent of the body, so you tell me how such a thing could be aware of the body?

“How can they not be evidence if they are peer reviewed data of positive results?” Your link doesn’t say anything about the mind being separate or it surviving physical death.

“Your persistent denials only prove you are dogmatically and not rationally attached to your position.” My denial of what? You haven’t presented any evidence that consciousness survives the death of the brain, so I haven’t had anything to deny.

“This is both funny and absurd.Humans are by definition NOT things” You are saying humans don’t exist?
“No amount of evidence can convince a pathological skeptic” You don’t have any evidence at all, Christians on YouTube claiming they “died” and they met demons and angels and other fantasy beings is not evidence that consciousness survives death of the brain.
“Tell me why your statement is not a contradiction in terms? A material object is inanimate and yet it can also be alive,according to you.” Life is just a particular structure of matter, “life” is not a magical property.

Well here is a list of proposed explanations of NDE http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Chapters/ShermerNDE.htm
Bullsh!t.Hypoxia causes memory loss,confusion and poor vision” It is known to cause out of body experiences and visions so it’s not bullshit.
“Endorphins do not cause epileptic seizures.They actually lower the intensity of the seizures” stimulation of the temporal lobe explains the description of NDEs something has to cause the stimulation of the temporal lobe it whether it’s endorphins or something else.
quote from the above link “The temporal lobe is likely to be crucial in NDEs, since it is sensitive to anoxia and its stimulation is known to induce hallucinations, memory flashbacks, body distortions, and out-of-body experiences”

“Yes she did say that but tell me why Atheists never ever question or are skeptical of fellow Atheist claims?” If I should question her explanation then what about the afterlife and the workings of the immaterial soul to explain NDE is that a scientific explanation?No it’s not.

Phoenix says:

Steve

This may be my last response to you for now.I know Atheists like yourself believe they win debates if they have the last say,despite their lack of logic and evidence contained in their arguments

I said:This is usually within a few minutes when clinical death is pronounced”

You responded:Yes and after that time permanent brain damage and then death will occur and then the person cannot regain consciousness//

Tell me,how does death follow clinical death?I said once the patient is declared clinically dead…,your response is yes,then death will occur.
====
If you smash a tea cup into a billion pieces, you won’t be able to put it back together again for all intents and purposes//

False analogy fallacy and straw man.I made no mention of patients surviving complete bodily destruction (biological death).
===
This is the same with all things, so “life” and “death” is not a special case//

Egregiously false,this does not apply to all things.There are clearly well defined words,terms,objects and formulas that leave no room for ambiguity.
===
Compare the brain and mind to ice and water, both ice and water are different things with different properties yet ice is nothing but frozen water//

Your analogies won’t work.Deal with the actual issue at,since all analogies are ultimately false.Are the properties of mind and brain the same?
===
It does because “mortal” means you are going to die and cease to exist//

There is no dispute that men die.Only consciousness does not die.Consciousness is not human.It must be embodied in order to experience itself as human then undergo the processes of birth and death.
===
1.Which is a fantasy because if mind were separate from the body it could never be aware of it//

Your proof for that is what?

2.No they don’t//

How can they not be evidence if they are peer reviewed data of positive results?

3.Their are no such experiences.//

Your persistent denials only prove you are dogmatically and not rationally attached to your position.

4,Their is no evidence consciousness survives physical death//

Check link:
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2801%2907100-8/fulltext?version=printerFriendly
====
Prove that otherwise this is just a fantasy//

This is both funny and absurd.Humans are by definition NOT things.

“an inanimate material object as distinct from a living sentient being”
===
No NDE case study shows mind is independent of body or that it survives physical death//

No amount of evidence can convince a pathological skeptic.
===
Living things are material objects, life is biological processes when those processes stop “life” ceases to exist//

Tell me why your statement is not a contradiction in terms? A material object is inanimate and yet it can also be alive,according to you.
===
Re Susan Blackmore. See this study which shows a link between oxygen deprivation and high levels of carbon monoxide in their blood//

Bullsh!t.Hypoxia causes memory loss,confusion and poor vision.Contrasted with NDE patients who consistently report vivid memories, clarity of consciousness and an unmistakable sense of purpose in life.The two hypotheses contradict each other.

steve says:

Another study on rats during cardiac arrest shows an increase in brain activity “the researchers found that “the brain is much more active during the dying process than in the waking state… In the 30-second period after the animal’s hearts stopped beating, the researchers observed an immediate release of more than a dozen neurochemicals, while high-frequency brainwaves called gamma oscillations increased” http://news.discovery.com/human/psychology/study-supports-role-of-oxygen-deprivation-in-near-death-experiences.htm

“Are they drugs,endorphins,temporal lobe seizures?” She says they are seizures or random activation in the temporal lobe and limbic system caused by the endorphins.

steve says:

“This is usually within a few minutes when clinical death is pronounced” Yes and after that time permanent brain damage and then death will occur and the person cannot regain consciousness.

“Further,scientists are cautious to use the term “irreversible” because it implies an absolute state that would make science itself static and no further knowledge can be acquired” If you smash a tea cup into a billion pieces, you won’t be able to put it back together again for all intents and purposes.

“However, determining when death has occurred requires drawing precise conceptual boundaries between life and death.This is problematic, however, because there is little consensus over how to define life” This is the same with all things, so “life” and “death” is not a special case.

“From a Dualist perspective,no.Consciousness is not physical because it does not share the same properties of the brain” Compare the brain and mind to ice and water, both ice and water are different things with different properties yet ice is nothing but frozen water.

“This does not disprove my position because the mortality of humans is accepted by both theists and materialists” It does because “mortal” means you are going to die and cease to exist.

“(P1) The hypotheses for the afterlife is based upon a belief of the duality between mind and body” Which is a fantasy because if mind were separate from the body it could never be aware of it.

“(P3) Peer reviewed data of NDE’s demonstrate the ontological independence of the mind/body relationship” No they don’t.

“(P2) Any experiences that demonstrate mind/body existential independence” Their are no such experiences.

“(C) Therefore, the peer reviewed data of NDE’s (per P1 and P3) are evidence of an afterlife (Per P2” Their is no evidence consciousness survives physical death.

“Yes,all things do die but humans are more than mere things/objects” Prove that otherwise this is just a fantasy.

“Only the physical aspects of man dies.” Humans are physical beings.

“the NDE case studies” No NDE case study shows mind is independent of body or that it survives physical death.

“2.an inanimate material object as distinct from a living sentient being” Living things are material objects, life is biological processes when those processes stop “life” ceases to exist.

Re Susan Blackmore. See this study which shows a link between oxygen deprivation and high levels of carbon monoxide in their blood. http://www.livescience.com/11010-death-experiences-linked-oxygen-deprivation.html
Another study on rats during cardiac arrest shows an increase in brain activity “the researchers found that “the brain is much more active during the dying process than in the waking state… In the 30-second period after the animal’s hearts stopped beating, the researchers observed an immediate release of more than a dozen neurochemicals, while high-frequency brainwaves called gamma oscillations increased” http://news.discovery.com/human/psychology/study-supports-role-of-oxygen-deprivation-in-near-death-experiences.htm

“Are they drugs,endorphins,temporal lobe seizures?” She says they are seizures or random activation in the temporal lobe and limbic system.

Phoenix says:

This is nonsense some things cease to function and it is impossible to reverse it//

“Some” being the operative word.Moreover,the NDE studies report that consciousness is able to return to the body provided the damage done is not irreparable.This is usually within a few minutes when clinical death is pronounced.
Further,scientists are cautious to use the term “irreversible” because it implies an absolute state that would make science itself static and no further knowledge can be acquired.
===
If that were true then we wouldn’t have the word life//

The writer is obviously refering to medical definitions of life that are highly controversial.
From Wiki since medical definitions are hard to find
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life
“However, determining when death has occurred requires drawing precise conceptual boundaries between life and death.This is problematic, however, because there is little consensus over how to define life”
===
Death” actually is and where to draw the line between life and death is a philosophical question not a scientific one. This is not same as claiming that after it has been determined that a person is brain dead consciousness continues to exist//

According to Materialists,yes,consciousness is reducible to the physical,so it must be accounted for scientifically,even though the jury is still out on that one.
From a Dualist perspective,no.Consciousness is not physical because it does not share the same properties of the brain.Therefore the nature of consciousness falls outside of scientific enquiry and into philosophical discourse.
===
All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore Socrates is mortal//

Straw man.This does not disprove my position because the mortality of humans is accepted by both theists and materialists.
===
You have presented no logical argument yet for the afterlife//

(P1) The hypotheses for the afterlife is based upon a belief of the duality between mind and body

(P2) Any experiences that demonstrate mind/body existential independence, is supporting evidence of, any given theory that depends upon body-independent mind or consciousness.

(P3) Peer reviewed data of NDE’s demonstrate the ontological independence of the mind/body relationship

(C) Therefore, the peer reviewed data of NDE’s (per P1 and P3) are evidence of an afterlife (Per P2).

That’s simple deduction
===
All things die, we are not exceptions. Belief in a continuation of consciousness is just a speculation, their no evidence for it nor is their any reason to think it even may survive physical death. Therefore the afterlife is a fantasy.//

Yes,all things do die but humans are more than mere things/objects.Only the physical aspects of man dies.So your first premise fails prima facie and your second premise ignores the NDE case studies.Your argument is therefore unsound given your false premisses.But nonetheless good try.

Definition of things
2.an inanimate material object as distinct from a living sentient being

Phoenix says:

I submit this brilliant article that explains quite well from a scientist/physicist’s perspective,the nature of death.Here’s some excerpts that will answer your objections quite well without me having to engage in an endless and repetitive discussion.

http://io9.com/5915339/the-meaning-of-death-how-do-we-know-someone-is-no-longer-alive

“I’ve been a science writer since 1973, covering a lot of particle physics, and I’ve discovered that compared to, say, physics, “medical science” is an oxymoron. Doctors are not well schooled in scientific principles. They are healers, not scientists, and they don’t understand basic concepts such as falsification in science”

[The problem with the definition of death]
“Definitions of death have not changed a great deal, but that doesn’t mean much. Often we’ll say “death is the absence of life,” but then we have to define “life” and that’s almost impossible. All we can really do is set criteria for who’s dead, and that is tough enough, and we have no real definitive set of standards”

[Irreversible death?]

“Irreversible” is not a very scientific term. Is the solar system “irreversible?” How about the universe as a whole? No, even the proton may eventually decay. Nothing is forever.

What science looks for is stable systems. We can say the solar system or the hydrogen atom is stable. Death comes, we might say, when the stability of the human body breaks down, and the system no longer works as a whole. Does that happen when the heart goes? The lungs? The lungs and heart together? The brain? That’s the debate. We are acquiring more and more evidence that the body can go on in a somewhat stable system long after the brain has called it quits. For example, brain-dead pregnant mothers can continue to gestate and give birth to their babies long after being declared brain dead. In one case, a mother went 107 days after “death,” and then delivered a healthy newborn”
===
The claim consciousness survives the death of the brain is a scientific claim not a metaphysical claim//

Read the whole article,even a physicist concedes such claims are mainly philosophical.
===
Where is your mathematical or syllogistic evidence for the afterlife then eh?//

First, let me know if I give you a sound deductive syllogism of NDEs will it suffice as evidence in your Materialist ideology or will you continue to raise the bar for physical proof?
Secondly,you must present your own logical proof in favor of your position.And don’t give me the standard Atheist dodge about not being able to prove a negative.Agreed?
===
I asked for logical proof of the afterlife as well, instead of waffling about “materialist dogma” just present your logical proof of the afterlife.//

As far as I’m concerned I already gave evidence in the form of peer reviewed data.I don’t think you even fully comprehend what logical proof is.You are probably not even aware that the premises does not need to be absolutely proven in order for the argument to be sound,as long as the premises are plausibly more true than its negation then it will also suffice as a sound argument.Also,a syllogism need not be complicated,it can be as simple as neccessary,with merely 2 premises.But don’t be shy either,the burden of proof and rebuttal share the same standard for evidence.So go ahead and make your logical case for your position,since you declare yourself to be rational.
===
I am saying God IS reality. God unlike material things never changes, is never born and never dies. I don’t consider consciousness/mind to be fundamental, since consciousness is only a part of God//

What is this then?Deism?
===
The joy and peace are consistent because of the natural opiates [endorphins] released under stress. The tunnel, light and noises are consistent because they depend on the structure of the brain’s cortex and what happens to it when it is deprived of oxygen or is affected by disinhibition and random activity. The OBE is consistent because it is the brain’s way of dealing with a breakdown in the body image and model of reality. The life review is consistent because the endorphins cause random activation and seizures in the temporal lobe and limbic system where memories are organized. The same effect leads to the breakdown of time and its relationship to self. And it is this dissolution of self that accounts for the mystical experiences and aftereffects//

Firstly,Blackmore is not a scientist and definitely not a Neurobiologist,so why even quote her.Secondly,she even admits her work is not proof against NDes but mere speculation.Lastly,I don’t even need to rebut her point by point,one of her grave mistakes is to assume that endorphins can account for the patients experiences but endorphins are not even hallucinogenic.If she can lie about such an important aspect of NDEs why should I even consider anything else she says?

steve says:

“The definition of death is only a guideline,it’s not an enforceable law.” It’s not a “guideline” if a person fits into the definition of death, then they are definitely dead.

“all the patients in the study were reported to be clinically dead.” Clinical death is not the same as brain death, just because the heart stops beating doesn’t mean their is no oxygen in the brain and that the brain cannot function.

“Except that most of the NDE patients report experiences with greater clarity,a strong sense of purpose,vivid memories,a strong sense of identity,etc” Did you have a look at the link? Blackmore answers this I will quote “The joy and peace are consistent because of the natural opiates [endorphins] released under stress. The tunnel, light and noises are consistent because they depend on the structure of the brain’s cortex and what happens to it when it is deprived of oxygen or is affected by disinhibition and random activity. The OBE is consistent because it is the brain’s way of dealing with a breakdown in the body image and model of reality. The life review is consistent because the endorphins cause random activation and seizures in the temporal lobe and limbic system where memories are organized. The same effect leads to the breakdown of time and its relationship to self. And it is this dissolution of self that accounts for the mystical experiences and aftereffects.
No afterlife hypothesis is required to account for the consistency of NDE across times, peoples and cultures. Indeed, the dying brain hypothesis accounts for it better.”

“that eventually lead to altruistic lives when they return to their bodies” She answers too “The afterlife hypothesis attributes this to NDErs having a spiritual existence in another world. In fact this does not really explain it at all. There is no obvious reason why an afterlife should be a better one nor why contact with it should make people who return nicer. That is simply assumed.

By contrast, the dying brain hypothesis is compatible with two reasons for transformation. One is simply that being made to think about death can affect a person’s priorities deeply, whether it is their death or another’s and whether they have an NDE or not. This alone can make them less selfish and more concerned for others. The other is that coming close to death can provoke the insight that the self was only a mental construction; that all the struggles, attachment and suffering of life depend on that artificial construction and that it can be let go. There never was any solid self and there is no one to die.With this insight fear is left behind and life can be lived more directly and fully. The dying brain hypothesis accounts better for the mystical insight of the NDE and the changes it can bring about.”

“You seem surprised.Science is limited to the study of material causation.If you think science is the only valid approach to epistemology then you need to provide scientific evidence for such a claim.” The claim consciousness survives the death of the brain is a scientific claim not a metaphysical claim.

“Who are you kidding here? No amount of mathematical or syllogistic evidence can satisfy a believer in Materialist dogma.” Where is your mathematical or syllogistic evidence for the afterlife then eh?

“The requirement as always,will eventually regress into a demand for physical evidence of a non-material entity.A classic ontological error.” I asked for logical proof of the afterlife as well, instead of waffling about “materialist dogma” just present your logical proof of the afterlife.

“I’m confused.Are you asserting Idealism now” I am saying God IS reality. God unlike material things never changes, is never born and never dies. I don’t consider consciousness/mind to be fundamental, since consciousness is only a part of God.

steve says:

Ali Sina
“What we can verify is when they accurately report seeing and hearing things that happened in other rooms” It’s never been verified.

“It can see, hear and fly when the body is dead” As explained before if their body was dead they wouldn’t be coming back to tell you.

“This can only mean one thing, that our body is only a vehicle we need to interact with the physical world.” How does the soul interact with the physical world then (during the near death experience)? Especially since it’s not supposed to be physical?

“even the future” Nobody knows the future, their is no such thing as omniscient.

“You think just by writing something you are debating?” If what I wrote was not logical then you would be able to respond logically to it. You just repeated your nonsense belief and think it’s a logical response. Any rational person can see who is logical and who is not.

Phoenix
“Definitions are descriptions of events,they are not prescriptions.” And that’s exactly what the label/definition “death” is. When a person fits into the definition dead they are definitely dead.

“It can’t be “mere” speculation if there are studies confirming the reality of NDEs” Why do you think they are called near death? So long as their is oxygen in the brain the physical brain can be conscious, and their can be consciousness. If oxygen is ever completely depleted from the brain then the brain dies. And once it dies, it can’t be brought back to life again. The damage is permanent.Nobody has come back from complete brain death precisely because the brain no longer functions.

“I can’t judge him because I’m not familiar with any of Sai Babas work.Do you have any case studies published in peer reviewed journals that I can look at” This man was a cult leader and pedophile, there is a video you can see where he has a necklace out of sight and then puts it in his sleeve, he then waves his hands and makes it appear to the audience as if he materialised the necklace out of thin air. Thousands of people claim this charlatan performed miracles, this should tell you something about how intelligent and sincere people can make the most stupid and ridiculous claims based on faith.

“What do you think NDEs demonstrate if not the mind-body existential independence?” See this article by near death researcher Susan Blackmore http://alexpetrov.com/memes/hum/nde-args.html Her view is that when the brain is dying our construct of self and reality goes haywire.

“I did not say the afterlife is scientifically verifiable” So you admit it’s not scientific?

“Like I said before,non-material claims can be tested using Reductio ad Absurdum.It is the logical equivalence of falsifiable.” The only claims which are non-material are metaphysical claims, metaphysical claims require logical proof. So where is your logical proof of the afterlife?

“What evidence do you have that there is nothing beyond the material universe without using circular logic?” My view is God alone is real all else is illusory what you call the material world is an illusion.

Phoenix says:

When a person is dead they are indeed absolutely dead – that is they fit the definition of dead. A dead person – by definition – cannot come back from death.//

Definitions are descriptions of events,they are not prescriptions.In other words,they do not tell us what ought or should be happening.Using your logic,we can equally assert that the universe originated from a First Cause,simply because that is what a First Cause is by definition.
===
Any belief that consciousness survives the death of the brain is mere speculation – since anyone who is alive has never died and no soul of a dead person has ever come back to confirm consciousness continues//

It can’t be “mere” speculation if there are studies confirming the reality of NDEs.At some point you will have to accept the existing peer reviewed data.
===
In that case you should accept that Sai baba performed miracles//

I can’t judge him because I’m not familiar with any of Sai Babas work.Do you have any case studies published in peer reviewed journals that I can look at?
===
Link doesn’t say anything about the afterlife//

What do you think NDEs demonstrate if not the mind-body existential independence?
===
The afterlife “theory” is not falsifiable that’s why it’s not scientific//

I did not say the afterlife is scientifically verifiable.This is a straw man.The falsifiability requirement are for material phenomenon only.Like I said before,non-material claims can be tested using Reductio ad Absurdum.It is the logical equivalence of falsifiable.
===
The claim that consciousness survives the death of the brain and body is an empirical claim not a philosophical/logical claim. And their obviously isn’t any logical proof of the afterlife//

Where has a Dualist ever claimed consciousness is physical.You know very well the contention is that the mind is non-physical and thus falls outside empirical analysis.
Your presupposition is that the material is all that exists.What evidence do you have that there is nothing beyond the material universe without using circular logic?

steve says:

Ali sina
“Many of these videos do not fall into “personal testimony” category and need to be explained” All of them fall into that category.

“If a person can see what happens in other rooms, and his or her claim is confirmed by others that needs to be explained” I have seen any convincing evidence that people have such an ability, how if the soul is not physical can it perceive the physical world and process that information? Does the soul have eyes and ears that fly round the hospital? furthermore even if such abilities exist these are not evidence of an afterlife or God. Many psychics claim to have similar abilities (remote viewing, telepathy etc).

“But when we have millions of people from all ages, races and beliefs saying the same thing, even at the risk of being ridiculed it would be foolish to dismiss the phenomenon.” Millions of people don’t testify to one case. Millions say have they such experience, not millions testifying to one case.

“I am yet to hear that simple and rational explanation” I already gave a few I will list them again they made the story up, details were added in after the experience or the story was exaggerated. Things like amnesia awareness are also a possibility. Why these explanations are not possible? Unless you can prove their not, then you have nothing.

“What I heard so far are simplistic and irrational explanation that make less sense than those given by Muslims in defense of their faith” Explain why then.

“We keep saying to Muslims that denial is not proof and I now have to repeat the same to materialists” I Have not denied the data I gave alternative explanations for the data (which are better and simpler than yours).

“As per your reasoning we must not accept the possibility that beyond the mountain there is a green land.” I do in fact hold it is entirely possible that consciousness continues after the death of the brain, I just think it is highly unlikely. In the future it may be possible to transfer consciousness from one brain to another brain (or a thing which does the same thing as a brain). In that case I would find the claims that consciousness continues and that people had a life in a previous body much more believable.

“If not, why should you accept the testimony of others?” The theory the earth is round is supported by scientific data not “personal testimony”.

“No matter how many people climb the mountain and come back with the same report we must not accept them, because what they say defies our world view” We are not talking about climbing a mountain, we are talking about people coming back from death. No dead person has ever come back to tell us about it and no living person can ever experience death. So death (or survival of consciousness after physical death) is not something which is experimental or can be experienced it’s just blind faith and speculation.

“Do you see the absurdity of this “anecdotal” argument?” A scientists theory has to be supported by data and experiment – they have to be repeatable, verifiable and they have to produce a clear result positive or negative (I.e they have to falsifiable). No scientific theory relies on personal testimony.

why? says:

For Mr Sina his followers are cultist but not the followers of Jesus.Why this double standard Mr.Sina?
==========================================================================

Sakat,

The guy is a christian only. He will not believe in anything other than miracle performing 2000 year old zombie corpse god. Ironically he calls it “living son of living god” and believes in it and its miracles.

why? says:

That explains lot of crap you keep writing about jeebus.

Ra says:

People believe in heaven and in hell but they were meant to be mythologies not realities. Same for all religions past and present. Same for all gods past and present. We should believe in religions only for the fun of it and not to take them seriously. Same for the NDE stories and same for the miracles and magic.

Indian says:

Read here
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2015/01/03/reincarnation-eastern-view/

steve says:

“Your claim of claim of certainty of knowledge is yet to be witnessed.Whenever you’re ready, do share it.” When a person is dead they are indeed absolutely dead – that is they fit the definition of dead. A dead person – by definition – cannot come back from death. Any belief that consciousness survives the death of the brain is mere speculation – since anyone who is alive has never died and no soul of a dead person has ever come back to confirm consciousness continues.

“Firstly,witness testimony is valid evidence,even if you find the subject matter undesirable” In that case you should accept that Sai baba performed miracles.

“Click on link below.” Link doesn’t say anything about the afterlife.

“However,for non-physical claims such as Theist propositions,the testing is done differently” The afterlife “theory” is not falsifiable that’s why it’s not scientific.

“which is the equivalence of Falsifiability in Logic and Mathematics” The claim that consciousness survives the death of the brain and body is an empirical claim not a philosophical/logical claim. And their obviously isn’t any logical proof of the afterlife

Phoenix says:

@steve

Your claim of claim of certainty of knowledge is yet to be witnessed.Whenever you’re ready, do share it.

You said: Many other people have probably already explained to you their is nothing to refute. Personal testimony is not evidence, if it’s is why you don’t accept Sai Baba hundreds claim they personally experienced miracle?//

Firstly,witness testimony is valid evidence,even if you find the subject matter undesirable .Secondly,there are case studies done by medical professionals who have presented their evidence for NDEs that were published in medical journals.Claiming no evidence does not make the existing evidence vanish.Click on link below.
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673601071008/abstract

=====
//You can’t refute something which is unfalsifiable – since the believer will then then add another layer of unfalsifiblity – no brain is receiver therefore drugs and brain damage is no problem to our theory//.

Falsifiable claims are subjected to empirical investigation because said phenomenon has physical properties.However,for non-physical claims such as Theist propositions,the testing is done differently.Such claims are subjected to deductive analysis and can be examined for grounding,coherence and tested via Reductio ad Absurdum or Proof by Contradiction,which is the equivalence of Falsifiability in Logic and Mathematics.Pigeon-holing non-material Theistic claims into a category which is meant for a material category is an ontological error.Insistence on such an ontological/category error fallacy is irrational.

How do you intend to respond to the above assessment?

Vishal Arya says:

Namaste Ali Sina,

You are greatest scholar, great spiritual person/guru, great human being. I regard you on the top as many as people I have met/ read / watch so far. When I see Muslim debate with you I think it is like a lighting bug challenging to sun. These Muslim have destroyed our country. I do not like Gandhi who allowed them to live in India even after partition of country in name of religion.

steve says:

“Refute the evidence given in those videos rationally and I will become an atheist again.” Many other people have probably already explained to you their is nothing to refute. Personal testimony is not evidence, if it’s is why you don’t accept Sai Baba hundreds claim they personally experienced miracle? You can’t refute something which is unfalsifiable – since the believer will then then add another layer of unfalsifiblity – no brain is receiver therefore drugs and brain damage is no problem to our theory. Yes soul can observe physical world even though it’s not physical because it’s the soul. No dead person contacts us because they haven’t figured out how to interact with the physical world, yes their is a lot of suffering and evil in the world, but actually its good for us because it’s a lesson from God to prepare for the real life to come. No these people cannot possible lie, or imagine things, or forget (like the guy who “forgot” he had a relationship with a woman) or exergerate or add details in (consciously or otherwise) long after the experience. So on and on this can can go ad infinitude.Your belief is not rational because you dismiss the much more likely and simple explanations. Your belief is explained by appeal to anecdote, using unfalsifiable methods and confirmation bias.

Phoenix says:

Hum has confused “complaining” with logic.There is no relationship between the two.

Materialists believe one should remain in doubt indefinitely.This is of course irrational.
Firstly,doubt and skepticism must be adopted for justifiable reasons,not for the mere sake of doubt.
Secondly,the doubt must eventually be removed and replaced with certainty,in the affirmative or negative.
Doubt for the sake of doubt can’t lead to knowledge,it’s an intellectual void.

Hum says:

Pick, I feel the same way.

I mean, Ali Sina, I still think you have a lot of good points about Islam. But ever since you’ve adopted Christian beliefs, you’ve lost me a bit. Now instead of simply critiquing Islam, you force everything into a prism of made-up psuedo-religious gobbledygook. It bogs everything down.

Pick says:

What the heck happened to you Sina? You really became delusional.