I believe the position is very clear. We should have the interest of the child before us. Providing a happy, normal life for any child, and the creation of a harmonic society on the basis of secularism i.e. separation of religion from the state, are the right principle and the basis of a right and just position. Respect for multi-culturalism and cultural relativism leads to discrimination against some sections of the society, violations of human rights for some sections, double standards, and the creation of a disintegrated and segregated society, where people are put into different pigeon boxes and identified by their cultural or religious backgrounds, instead of as equal citizens. Diversity is fine but creating boxes and stamping people’s foreheads with their religion or their family’s or community’s religion is wrong. Furthermore, children are not given proper scientific education in these faith schools. They are given a one-sided education which is more based on superstition than science. Thus a normal life is denied from them.

We then come to the question of gender and sexual equality. Faith schools in general, and Islamic and Jewish schools in particular are based on sexist values and beliefs. In all religious schools there is a very definite defined gender role. Girls are considered as a whole different kind of human being than boys. There you have gender apartheid and segregation which is very discriminatory against girls and women. We have a long history of fighting for women’s rights in Europe . Especially the gender roles have been challenged significantly in the past 30 years in Western Europe . The religious schools deny that and contradict society’s achievements. They turn the clock backward. We should not let this happen. Bringing up children in religious schools is wrong and has to be banned.

Bahram Soroush: Some might say fair enough, you want secular education, that children should be left alone until they reach the age of maturity, until they are 16, and then they can decide what religion to have or what not to have. But they also say, what about the rights of the parents? Don’t they have any rights and responsibilities towards raising their children? Aren’t you excluding them of their rights?

Azar Majedi: No, I am not excluding any one of their rights. Parents definitely have a responsibility towards their children. They also have some rights. These rights and responsibilities must be defined by the society as a set of universal laws. Parents are responsible to provide their children, in the framework of their means, with a happy, normal and safe life. They must provide their children with love, security and safety. But this does not mean that if a child is born in a poor or disadvantaged family, the society will leave the child to have only what the parents are capable of providing. Society has a duty toward the well being of the child. That is why there are internationally recognised charters and declarations to safeguard and protect children. Modern society has recognised the need for such laws. That is why every civilised society has laws regarding obligatory education, prohibition of child labour, criminalising physical and sexual abuse of a child and so on. By passing such laws, the society has taken the matters in its own hand out of the parents’ realm of rights. We are not living in a feudal system where the parents - actually the father - decide over the whole family’s existence. For example, according to Islamic laws, a father or a grandfather can kill his children without being prosecuted. This is a law in some countries. Modern, civil society has abolished this right. I want to say rights are not absolute and ahistorical. Each society must define these laws according to the well being of children and in light of children’s interests. In my opinion, indoctrination of children is one of those so-called rights that must be taken away from parents. Education must be standardised and universal for every child in a given society.

What I am trying to say is that there is a responsibility by the society towards children as much as there is parents’ responsibility towards children. That happy, normal and secure life that I was talking about is partly society’s responsibility in all aspects: economically and education wise. The society will not leave it to the parents just because the children are born in a particular family to teach them whatever they want and brain wash them with superstition. There is actually a law and a limited safeguard that the society offers to children if the parents are abusive. Society would intervene and take the child’s side.

I think abuse is understood as merely sexual or physical and verbal violence whereas indoctrination and brain washing of children with superstition and prejudgments must also be recognised as abuse. Inflicting or imposing religious or cultural customs upon children that hinder healthy physical and mental development must be considered as abuse. I consider child veiling as a serious violation of children rights. In the same token, sending children to religious schools is a serious violation of their rights.

Bahram Soroush: It particularly affects the girls. Doesn’t it?

Azar Majedi: It does. Religion by its nature and as an ideology is very much sexist and male chauvinist. Christianity has been challenged in the 18 and 19th century, from the French revolution to the transformation of the European society from a feudal society to a capitalist system. It has been pushed back in the society and is more or less behaving itself. Islam however, has not gone through the same process. Islam has never been dealt with like this in the societies that it was born in. Islam has never been challenged in this way, has never been pushed back from the society. Moreover, for the past 3 decades a political movement has been born and developed, which takes its ideology and policy from Islam and is very reactionary, i.e. political Islam.  This movement is not only religious but also political. We can see what political Islam is doing, gaining more and more inroads in western society as well. We know Islam’s record, what Islam says; it is written black on white and we know how male chauvinistic and sexist it is. Gender apartheid is the basis of Islam. The veiling of children and many other abuses should be stopped. If you expose a girl or even a boy to that culture and education, you are actually depriving these children of a humane life, especially the girls. Islamic schools must be stopped because this gender discrimination is embedded in Islam.

TV International interview dated January 2005. Bahram Soroush hosted the programme whilst Maryam Namazie was away.

* See International TV English with Maryam Namazie

Week beginning Sunday May 15, 2005 Programme

Maryam Namazie is back hosting her weekly TV International programme (www.anternasional.tv/english). In this week’s programme of May 15, 2005 , she interviews Azar Majedi on whether the world can live with Iran 's nuclear weapons, Bahram Soroush on our being labelled Islamophobic, and Hamid Taqvaee on the two poles of international terrorism.

 TV International English is a weekly hour-long news analysis and commentary programme that focuses on the Middle East and rights and freedoms from a progressive and Left standpoint. Watch TV International English every Sunday from 11.00 - 12.00pm Tehran time ( 7.30-8.30pm London time). The programme is broadcast on Satellite: Telstar 12, Centre Frequency: 12608 MHz, Symbol Rate: 19279, FEC: 2/3, Polarization: Horizontal. It an also be viewed on its website: www.anternasional.tv/english.