The Qur’an says that the Earth is Round
Ibn Kammuna
Introduction
Did you know that the Qur’an told us that the earth was round 1400 years ago? If true, That is indeed a Miracle. The problem is we have plenty of evidence that all Muhammad did is reiterate the common belief of the time that the earth was flat. Many Qur’anic verses attest to this fact. In this article I will present the reader with a video posted by Muslims trying to show that the Qur’an indeed contains passages claiming that the earth is round. The video relies on verses 39:5 and 79:30 (for the second video shown later) in the Qur’an. I will first introduce the video, then I will post the verses. After that I will provide some analysis. A bonus video for laughs is added toward the end of this short article.
Here is the video:
Proving that the earth is round
Here are the Qur’anic verses used in the above video:
039.005
YUSUFALI: He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power – He Who forgives again and again?
PICKTHAL: He hath created the heavens and the earth with truth. He maketh night to succeed day, and He maketh day to succeed night, and He constraineth the sun and the moon to give service, each running on for an appointed term. Is not He the Mighty, the Forgiver?
SHAKIR: He has created the heavens and the earth with the truth; He makes the night cover the day and makes the day overtake the night, and He has made the sun and the moon subservient; each one runs on to an assigned term; now surely He is the Mighty, the great Forgiver.
079.030
YUSUFALI: And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
PICKTHAL: And after that He spread the earth,
SHAKIR: And the earth, He expanded it after that.
Analysis
First, let us analyze Verse 39:5. The verse is clearly talking about the day and night overtaking each other. You see, Muhammad observed like everyone else during his time that the day and night follow a pattern of gradual change from one to the other. Day and night succeed each other. Note that the verse itself goes against our current knowledge of astronomy. The verse speaks about the sun and the moon running to an assigned term. This is in fact a scientific mistake. The earth is in continuous movement around the sun. The moon moves in a similar manner around the earth as well as around the sun. Muhammad was just repeating the common knowledge of the day which assumed that the moon and the sun move around the earth. Yet, we have Muslims of the twenty first century believing that this verse tells that the earth is round!
Let us move to the second verse, verse 79:30. There is no need for any linguistic acrobatics here. Muhammad is saying the earth is flat. Allah spread it out. This was also common knowledge back then. The earth was believed to be flat. Yet again, Muslims miraculously see that this verse points to the fact that the earth is round!
Bonus for Laughs
Here is a good Muslimah’s video that believes that verse 79:30 above tells that the earth looks like an egg, not just any egg, but an Ostrich egg (I guess an Ostrich egg is the Real Mccoy in Islam). Why Ostrich? I have no idea where an Ostrich egg can be seen in verse 79:30, but an Ostrich is certainly a good bird for an egg choice! Here is the video
Short URL: http://www.archive2012.faithfreedom.org/?p=5331
Posted by Ibn Kammuna
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dear stupid idiotic moslem
Can you please translate what you have blurted out in to proper english? Your ranting makes no sense, but then being a qrand follower i would guess that is quite natural to be stupid.Your inherited cretinism comes through clearly.I suggets you wipe the back side with pages of qrand and start reading proper books.may be , just may be you will improve
"PICKTHAL: He hath created the heavens and the earth with truth. He maketh night to succeed day, and He maketh day to succeed night, and He constraineth the sun and the moon to give service, each running on for an appointed term. Is not He the Mighty, the Forgiver?"
I only want to show how incoherent the quran is. Notice how the word the Forgiver at the end of the verse does not make sense in this verse. To forgive what? The earth and heavens? Just a smal thought to pious muslims.
The other thing I lke to mention is that muslims are making themselves a laughing stock to the rest of the world with their continous nonsense of associating the quran with anything miraculous. It just only yesterday I was discussing with a seemingly sane muslim and asked him about the quran. He changed his face and said, uh, the quran is miraculous, no one can produce or write a book, or even a verse of as the quran. Of course I expected this answer for I have now become acquinted with islam and muslims ever since I joined FFI, but this muslim is a very good poet and I wanted to show him that if he can compose a poetic book with far better lyrics and rythm than the quran itself, why the hell should he consider that no one can produce even a single verse like the quran? Or to put this question to muslims here at FFI what do you consider to be a miraculous aspect of the quran in terms of its poetic composition?
I would like to respond to the main topic,
the argument which is pointed out here is on the ayah:
"Wa Al'-Arda Ba' da Dhalika Dahaha"
translated as:
"And after that He spread the earth"
The Holy Quran(79:29)
———————————————————–
As LS had said earlier, all people make mistakes..so does the muslim ulama..
Mr. Rashad Khalifa had made a confusing translation of the above ayah, as the earth is like an ostrich's egg.. Which was indeed not true..
……………………………
Answered by the Scientific Research Committee –
The word in question is the verb (dahâ). This verb comes from the tri-literal root d-h-w, and it appears in the Qur’aan in relation to the Earth in the following verse: “And the Earth, after that, He spread out (dahâhâ).” [Soorah al-Naazi`at: 30]
This word conveys one concept in the Arabic language: that of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”. Allaah mentions this to us in the verse to show us something of his providence to us. He explains what he means by stretching the Earth out and smoothing it out in the following verses: “He brought forth from it its water and its pasturage, and He made the mountains firmly fixed.” [Soorah al-Naazi`at : 31-32]
Therefore, Allaah smoothed out the Earth for us by making it a stable and suitable place for habitation, providing its inhabitants with water, pasture, and keeping its mountains firmly-fixed.
With respect to this word’s association with eggs, it is as follows:
Due to the fact that the word conveys the meaning of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”, the Arabs named the place where an ostrich incubates and hatches its egg an "udhiyy". This is a hollow pit in the ground around 30 to 60 centimeters deep. The Arabic word for this shallow depression is derived from the triliteral root d-h-w – the same etymological root as the verb dahâ. The reason for this is that the ostrich spreads out and flattens this area with its legs before laying its egg in it. The ostrich uses neither a nest nor a burrow for its eggs.
From this, we must understand that the word is not used for the egg itself but rather for the flattened depression where the ostrich deposits its egg.
Whoever uses the word to refer to the egg or to the shape of the egg is being inexact in his linguistic usage. However, without doubt we can say that such an error does not detract from the person’s reputation or scholarship as a whole, and it does not warrant a harsh reprimand.
In any case, verse 30 of Soorah al-Naazi`at – that mentions the verb dahâ in reference to the Earth – is not discussing the shape of the Earth at all. It cannot be used as proof that the Earth is flat or round or egg-shaped. The verse is silent on the matter. And Allaah knows best.
The exact shape of the Earth is best known from empirical observations, and not from seeking to deduce its exact shape from the Qur’aan.
The Earth is practically a perfect sphere.
Yes, the Earth is ever so slightly flattened at the poles, due to its rotation, technically making it an approximate "oblate spheroid", a rounded shape with a sight bulge at the equator.
However, the difference made by the bulge is minute. The diameter at the equator is only 42.72 kilometers greater than the diameter at the poles. Considering that the average diameter of the Earth is about 12,742 km, the difference is infinitesimal – nothing at all like the shape of an ostrich egg, which is visibly an oval. The average ostrich egg is 15 cm long and 13 cm wide.
Therefore, the claim that the Earth is shaped like an ostrich egg is not only unfounded scripturally, it is scientifically inaccurate.
We should also take this occasion to mention that the Earth is almost perfectly smooth. Its near-perfect smoothness is not compromised by the contours of its crust. The highest mountains and deepest trenches of the crust are insignificant compared to the vastness of the Earth's surface.
To get an idea of how insignificant the mountains and trenches are when compared to the Earth's surface, we can compare the smoothness of the Earth to that of a billiard ball. A billiard ball must be very smooth and regular. The tolerance allowed for a billiard ball is only 0.22%. (Tolerance, in engineering, refers to the permissible limit of variation in a dimension of a manufactured object.) The Earth, by comparison, has a tolerance of about one part in 584, or 0.17%. This means the Earth is much more perfectly smooth than what is allowed for a billiard ball.
———————————————————————————————————————————-
Hope this puts some light on to the situation..!
You know, it's funny how much Christians try to make other religions' texts sound idiotic and ignorant. I guess it takes attention away from all of the screwed up things the Bible says and how moronic some of it's commands are.
It would be nice if everyone realized that NONE of these books are meant to be taken completely literally and are more of a guide than anything. But it's pointless to argue in the face of such ignorance and bigotry. Pathetic. Such a waste of good messages- too bad humans have to manipulate and destroy everything.
tell u why ostrich egg!
quran origin is arabic! in arabic the world is ( DAHHAHA)
now (DAHHAHA) /only the ostrich when she hide her egg.
means the shape of mud after u taking off the ostrich egg!
Farhan:
My thanks to you.
that is the most scholarly piece of work that I have seen from any Muslim comentator here and perfectly deals with the Ostrich egg nonsense.
I am also grateful to you for this:
"The word in question is the verb (dahâ). This verb comes from the tri-literal root d-h-w, and it appears in the Qur’aan in relation to the Earth in the following verse: “And the Earth, after that, He spread out (dahâhâ).”
This word conveys ONE concept in the Arabic language: that of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”.
So there we have it folks: the Koran says the earth is level and flat. And that from the "horse's mouth" the [Islamic] Scientific Research Committee.
The Jews said the earth was round in Isaiah 40:22 in 778-732 BCE. Allah was not the god of the Jews as their god was YHWH. Allah has no name as allah is a Hindu Sanskrit word for god. The Hindus had over 3 million allah and the vedas uses the word allah today. Taj Mahal is Hindu not Muslim.
THANK YOU iSAIAH AND THE JEWS FOR TELLING US THE EARTH WAS ROUND. jews were/are smart.
With the absence of the words "round" and "earth" in one verse clearly shows it all.
With the inability of muslim to discover (scientificelly) the round shape of the earth clearly shows it all.
With the struggle of muslim to look for similar (close enough or at least not flat) words to represent "round" clearly shows it all.
End of discussion. If i saw muslim talk about this again in this site, i would start to think that you muslim are not human but donkey.
YeAH bACK THEn ppl also believed in the stars and the idols and praying to a statue they made with their own hands…it never occurred to them that the statue is not really the god..i mean come on its common sense they made the statue with their own hands and then they pray to it..u might as well just make urself into a statue and pray to urself…so with that I Conclude stop hating on islam and trying to find facts to make it seem ridiculous when in reality u all look foolish praying to a statue made with ur own hands…
Yeah..yeah… People believe in meteor stone too as a holy thing. Now they worship that stone, consider it as a sacred stone from heaven (???), and every followers are facing that stone when they pray. LOL
Is there any thing in the world that had uptil now disproved Allah i dont think so and as the proud kaafir defines he and his religions are the infidels with shallow wit and i is not possible for them to undestand the deepness of the quran
without doubt earth is roung in shape but allah mentions in the quran that the gound on which we are living is flat and that defines allah's miracle as it says despite being in a round shape earth serves the mankind as flat……………………………………………………….is that clear to the non-muslims commentors on islam
the proud kafir is a monkey stupid idiot donkey and all sorts of irregular worldy personalities he does not defines his religions because his religion includes dumb monkeys with the name gods and he thinks if he'll reveal the god name the truth will be published openly so i request the proudkafir to just shut his mouth because his religion is also as dumb as him and this is what his religion teaches him that is abusing oh i forgot infidels do have this nature and that they do not have manners……………before saying something to other religion he should have looked through his own collar
You made wrong statement which every religions can make. Change the statement: Is there any thing in the world that had until now approved Allah i dont think so, nothing but selfish claim with no proof. There are no words mentioning "round" in the quran, did you even read this article and comments? wow, great subjective and selfish statement. allah mentioned earth is flat? wrong it was human's eyes mentioned that. allah's eyes are nothing more than a human eyes. Your statement only clear to a brainwashed believer not free thinker.
It looks like the mulimah has photographed her behind and has displayed here along witht he shape of the earth!
Thank you for this profound article Ibn!
I will now revert back to Islam!
I was fool to have ever left Islam!
I see that now…
This religion IS perfect!
Nutty little More ham bad was INDEED the perfect man!
I will believe everything that Mohammerhead said and do everything he tells me!
Praise be to Allah for sending little Mojo and his perfect truth back my way!
Oh thank you Mr.Allahlala! You are too kind you funky old man…
Aryabhatta vs Allah
Instead of Quran it is better to read "Elementry Number Theory" by Thomas Koshy. It will tell you that in 300 years before the Christ was born a humble Indian mathematician named Aryabhatta, he caluculated the radius of Earth as 7200 km. which is pretty decent compared to the present 6500 km.
Now i think their nothing miraculous in the Quran. In fact Aryabhatta was did't just say about the geometry of earth, he went a step further to calulate it's radius.
So who is more rational Allah or Aryabhatta?
Marie:
Yes, i did forget to mention this! Thxs Marie!
Everyone knows that Muslim farts smell the sweetest.
The great almighty Allahlalapooballs would have it no other way.
There may even be a hadith about this!
I will have to dig through that 'very stinky' doo doo pile and see if i can find one!
LondonSpirit
Please answer my simple question with simple answer on your debate, part II with IbnKammuna, 18th june, to close your conclusion regarding the reality of the topic.
It ashame you dragged audience, pages upon pages of nonsense, but you can not make a stand on what happened to reality.
#34 LondonSpirit, answer to my question honestly. Why no verse in the Quran talks about the movement of earth? It definitely talks about the motion of the sun and the moon. If you think that phrases like 'spreading like carpet' do not mean flat-earth, then why aren't there verses to show that the earth is round. PLEASE QUOTE FROM YUSUFALI OR PICKTHAL. No Zakir Naik please!
I am waiting for your answer
Brother Ibn Sahr, Greetings
Don't expect LS to admit any kind of defeat. That is how he is.
Example: there are so many verses that say the earth is flat in the Qur'an, its unreal. Yet, he still explains that away as if there is no problem here. So, shall we expect anything from him regarding apostasy and its practices in the Islamic countries? No. The guy is so blind he doesn't know he is blind.
Peace brother.
@Ibn Kammuna: LOL no problem!
@JAH:
"There is no natural object that resembles exactly like the Earth."
Well I did not make this claim. However, we are discussing the Quran, so if Allah decided to describe the shape of the Earth, you should think he would do a better job than either flat (what it says) or 'egg'. close enough is not good enough.
"However, an ostrich egg resembles more than orange or any other natural object."
Again, 'close enough' is not good enough for the perfect words of Allah. The Earth is an oblate spheroid – like a sphere, but slightly 'squashed' at either end. An Ostrich egg is not an oblate spheroid, and neither does it resemble the Earth as you can see from my previous post.
"For example, an egg is made up of outer shell, thin layer, liquid, etc. Similarly, the Earth is made up of crust, mantle, inner core, outer core, hot liquid, etc. Got it?"
Yes I saw what you did there. We are discussing the SHAPE of the Earth, but you have tried to draw similarity between other attributes, which are not mentioned in 79:30, nor was it what we are discussing.
The bottom line is that the Quran says the Earth is flat – and it is not correct to claim it is 'egg shaped.'
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/The_Flat_Earth
Folks, please read the following scientific article on the measurement of the circumference of earth by ancient Indians :
http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/feb252009/547.pdf
References are taken from Aryabhateeyam, Surya Siddhanta, and other great astronomical works. The margin of error for the circumference of the earth when compared to the current value is -1.47%. This is an interesting paper. I recommend everyone to read it.
Rationalist
PS1: Brother Ibn Kammuna, when you mentioned in your article "the problem is we have plenty of evidence that all Muhammad did is reiterate the common belief of the time that the earth was flat"– the common belief you have mentioned should be restricted to the Arabs and the Christian world and their scriptures. This should exclude some civilizations where people in fact understood the earth was round in shape. The article presented above provides references from the pre-islamic and pre-christian world.
PS2: If the link does not work then google "On the confirmation of the traditional unit of length measure in the estimates of circumference of the earth"
I am quite aware of the verse/hadith where it's mentioned that mo maha loud ah's sweat was sweet smelling!
I am also aware of the fact that mo maha loud ah forbade people in congregation from farting( good for him, imagine the stink moslems would raise along with their back sides!) and women.
I am not quite aware of the sweet fart that moslems are !
magicSQUARE,
Eratosthenes of Alexandria also calculated the circumference of the earth at about the same time,using science not superstition.
Ever since writing was invented, so much wisdom, guidance was written and it always went on, now more than ever. Islamic wisdom, guidance is only part of it. It is by now in part obsolete and it is doubtful if it is the literal word from God, as it is so written about its own time, faulty and VERY VAGUE, unclear.
Yet Muslims were and are told Islamic teachings are perfect, superior, valid for all times, very beneficial, and now even "scientific" before Infidel scientists finally proved it right! And if most Islamic leaders would have their way, it would be forbidden to independently, intellectually scrutinize their teachings.
And now we know that the percentage of Muslims in Western countries is dramatically going to grow, that Islamic countries will have huge population-growth. And we hear people like Khadaffi, Qaradawi, Zawahiri and many others saying that Islam should and will dominate the world. This is reason for concern and that is why it is Islam and not Scientology for instance that is so much under scrutiny and debate.
So this site, and others like it, is so important to give the world, anybody with a computer who speaks English, so much excellent information. The real truth about Islam, its teachings and the behavior and intentions of part of its followers. So that Muslims and followers of other faiths or no faiths are able to see Islams faults or shortcomings. And to let them supplement or replace their good Islamic beliefs to become wiser, more broad-minded, to help create a better world with the help of other wisdom and guidance.
And if Muslims would be humble, they would not have to defend the almost indefendable outdated Quran. They would say that they use its good parts, combined with much other available wisdom. They would prefer it even that all people can share all their critical and alternative thoughts freely with each other, so that the best of wisdom and guidance can be found and used for progress, more prosperity, happiness.
But Mohammad said the sun sets everyday in a pond or lake? LOL !!!
JAH, all your responses have been deleted because of the vulgur language which is an inherent part of you speech. There is no need for you to play the victim. You have been warned several time to check your language, however you don't seem to understand peaceful appeals. Your responses look more like rants and threats than anything else. Next time you have post try to use better language and they will not be removed. maybe you could take a cue from your Muslim brother Londonspirit.
Moderator
No mohammad maha loud ah did not say that! It was allah who made maha loud ah say that, when he as asked about the sun and it's where abouts by the stupid moslems.Mind you in the middle of that pond there is a throne where the pimp allah is resting! Islamic stupidity is only matched by the asinine moslems.
Ibn Sahr,
LondonSpirit is well aware that there are Islamic readers of his posts too and he can be held accountable by them for what he answers to us. So some relevant, apt, but tough questions or challenges he ignores or evades. Or he says: "Your heart is locked against Islam, nothing I say will change you, so I quit with you". Or something like that. This looks like a familiar cop-out to me.
When Ibn Kammuna tells LondonSpirit he already told the main points and is finished (and LS'heart is locked against anything FFI says), then LS says that that is unreasonable, or even that he, LS, has successfully refuted IK.
On Islamic websites in this sort of cases you hear Muslims saying that their opponent "is on the run". So maybe LondonSpirit is 'on the run' from you this time?
Who discovered an ostrich egg for the first time in Quran? Was it Zakir Naik? It is time for Allah to hatch eggs for the sake of science!
There is also another undeniable proof that in daily practice Islam teaches gullible Muslims that the Earth is flat and not round. When Muslims pray they must face in the direction of Mecca. When they perform their natural functions they must face away from Mecca. So it follows that if, as they are taught by their clerics, that the Earth was flat, they really would be facing Mecca when praying, no matter how far away they are.
However, knowing as we do today that the earth is really round or more accurately spheroid, Muslims are actually facing into outer space when they pray far away from Mecca. Therefore the further away they are from Mecca, the less they are actually facing towards it and the more they are facing into outer space.
Let us take a simple example to explain further. A Muslim praying in America which is thousands of miles/kilometers away from Mecca is actually "down under" from it and the prayers are directed to outer space. The only way in a round world that they could actually "face" Mecca would be to dig a vertical tunnel in America and pray in it facing down.
So millions of Muslims who lived far from Mecca throughout the centuries have committed the cardinal sin of facing towards outer space when praying. They are still doing so today and therefore their prayers are not acceptable to their Allah who forgot about this fact when he ordered them to pray facing Mecca.
If Muslims today truly want to face Mecca when praying far away, they must dig holes in the ground and pray facing down. They will unfortunately have to use infidel invented scientific instruments to ensure they get it just right. Failure to do so is severly punishable by Allah. Most terrible of all for them, it would also lead to the loss of the promised 72 virgins and 28 pearly boys. How awful for them!
How come Allah, Muhammad and even the Islamic genius Zakir Naik forgot to tell Muslims this vital fact and that it is us "ignorant infidels" who have to explain this basic fact to them?
Every body talks here of 72 virgins and 28 boys.How about good pious muslimah? What does she get? 72 diks? I saw those in my trips to the dark corners of amsterdam and they sell them in all sizes and colours and shapes! I suppose muslimahs will be born in amsterdam!
proudkafir # 62
Pious muslimas will of course be in charge of these heavenly harems. Each one's job will be to make sure that the 100 playmates are properly groomed, clothed, fed and be presentable to their male masters.
Now that the FFI Moderator/s have made the right move, I think we can have some decent discussions on this forum. My heartfelt thanks for the FFI Moderator/s.
Halalpork786.
welcome back Halalpork786.Didnt see much of you lately
IbnKammuna, Demcsi, Ls made smart choice, by not condemning those ulama.
Ls before you interpret more further of quranic verse about the earth shape, why don't you try to contemplate on the big picture first that were said in quran as well, which more cleary said, wherease the round earth is not clearly said
why quran says, satan create earth first then ordered the sky and earth to join together, whats this? 1001 arabian story
im sure you're educated person and you know it through the science, that it was planet first and all these things start to happened on earth, story about shooting stars, mountain to keep earth from sliding.
supposed you're right, earth is round as quran said (where ever you got that one from), but what about the rest of those story, you take that nonsense to primary school, they will laughing at you, you must be clown they thought
Ls, for the sake of the creator of universe, quran is rubbish,,,, throw it in the bin.
if you familiar with programming term "Rubbish in, Rubbish out", excatly like muslim, being feed by rubbish book, and look around that associate with islam, the country, the neigborhood, human right, the tolerance…, ALL RUBBISH.
you're 6th generation living in kafir world, are you going to become the generation to preserved these rubbish and lies in the era of commonsense and science.
#61 shafee al-sindig
you wrong again,
satan made lower heaven like the ceiling of the dance club, with lots of mirrors ornaments, so basically it will reflected back to ka'abh, satan is all knowing
Oh by the way before I forget, can you please show the dumb head the four corners of this spherical earth as well, now that we have shown a video of the earth in full! There was another idiot ( biblical please this time) who posted a message saying I shall see the east and west corners of the earth after i start believing in JC! How nice to see the four corners of the earth in three dimensions.The lord of the lies and asininities
Mr. Moderator
Please refrain from not printing the abusive language and slander from the Moabites, uh sorry moslims. Seeing them spraying that garbage out of their mouths, and messing on themself, makes for quite a laugh. It is the only thing that makes my day. It also makes me realize that I will never even consider becoming one of them.
So please stop what u r doing.
Thanks FFI Moderators ultimately a step in the right direction, apart from censoring abusive language kindly remove off topic irrelevant discussions which deprives and puts off genuine debators.
DEMSCI its amazing how you can say i evade or ignore peoples question because i have answered every question i feel that it needs an answer. Why i didnt answer the question of IBNSAHR about ulamah?
This is why IBNSAHR i will answer your questions.
There appears to be a problem with the video links. They don't show up on my computer. Does anybody else have this problem or only me?
to Mr Londonspirit #78
You said: Science tells as that mountains are used to prevent or stop earth quakes. SO wouldnt you say mountains are used to stablize the earth.
I am afraid that this is not true pal. Most of the earthquakes that occur around the world have been in mountainous area, rather than Steppe area with vast grass field. I suggest you read the online book my Mr Amar Khan: " Miracle of the Quran Exposed" under the section: "Mountain as Pegs".
Muhammad was rehashing what he observed by comparing mountains as pegs with pitched tent. Such description fit merely for 7th century Arabia rather than being a scientific miracle. Hope this will shed some light for you.
Humanity is but one family.
What a waste of time,who cares what's written in the Qur'an, even if the Qur'an stated that the earth was round,so what? There's no science or rational thought involved, it would merely be a lucky guess.Moslems are clutching at straws,very thin straws, if they think that the Qur'an makes any scientific sense whatsoever.
IbnSahr, I like your programming principle "Rubbish in, Rubbish out". I heard it as Garbage In, Garbage Out. The opposite would be what? Quality In, Quality Out? Well, we can try to take a balanced view at what Islamic societies and other societies gave out, then we can conjecture what it was that "went in"?
Well, let's for now say that in Islamic countries nothing much better "went in" than in the other countries.
You were aptly saying that there is an Islamic verse, even quoted by president Obama, that goes like "When you kill one human, it is like you kill all mankind". So Muslims should not take it lightly when the Ulama's interpreted the Quran wrong and caused the death of innocent people.
From inside the Islamic community this should be protested. Because it is conjectured that at the end of the 21st century half of mankind will be Muslim. And Muslims now condone, in silence or even in denial or tu quoque-reasoning, all sorts of Islam-dominance & propaganda, suppression, injustices, bad behavior in general, done in Islamic countries, part of it seemingly in the name of Islam. And now the other people cannot trust them not to do it wherever and whenever they gain power. The trust of other people in Muslims is at stake in the 21st century.
But LondonSpirit said some great things, about the Saudi Sheiks drinking, the leaders of Iran being in the same boat as Kim Jong Il and George Bush. We both could try to point out to each that our favorite faiths, leaders, countries behave better than the other one. But for now it is highly satisfactory that he admits these faults in Islamic leaders/ governments, even clerical leaders. As we also admit faults in "our" leaders/ governments, clerics.
I still believe Ibn Kammuna's interpretation about apostasy is the correct one. But if the Quran was meant in a certain way, and it was possible for the highest scholars of Islam to interpret it wrong or for personal use, that seems to mean that the Quran-texts just were too vaque, too ineffective. And in such cases the manifests of political parties are just adapted or rewritten. But OK, the Quran stands unaltered, usable for all time, but is it really sustainable that it is perfect? That all of it is still valid, instead of only some good parts in it?
Oh, LS, your challenge has been answered on FFI often, in the way that various ambiguous Quranic verses, liable to be interpretated for personal gain, or gain for Islam, were indeed cause for killing innocent people. But like a good lawyer Muhammad formulated these verses suitable for credible deniability. Literally your challenge is unanswerable I suppose.
Here please read some more about the pegs I mean mountains nailed in to the earth to prevent it from shaking.Stupidty has also some limits, but a believers wishful thinking of making sense out of sheer nonsense that islam is, to say the least unbelievable and limitless.! http://www.seismo.unr.edu/ftp/pub/louie/class/100…
Just google mountains and earth quakes.
1.You will realise that earth quakes happen more frequently in mountainous areas( sad your pedo rapist was not correct there )and that the mountains form due to colliding tectonic plates.
Please teach some science your younger generation and not qrandic science.It's fit for flushing down.Children who learn only qrandic science will end up cleaning the same pot.
This big mouth Londonspiritous back again, eh? with usual bs and useless theory. After apostasy, now earth? the writer of quran didn't even know the shape of the earth, let alone writing the word "round"/ "ball". That's why the writer could only tell from his own perspective (human eyes!!!, not divine eyes). Everyone, if you want to study science, don't look at islamic "science", or you will get dumb..and..dumber…and…dumber….
Dumb…Dumber…Dumbest……………Moslems! That's the order of descent. Moslems have to ascend to the level of a dumb person in the first place and then only they become humans. Each belief stage like in Mohammad, hadiths, Sunnah and qrand drags you down the slippery slope towards momeenism
Even if we accept the mental gymnastics and pseudo science, that is required to believe that the quran told us the earth is round 1400 years ago, The ancient Greeks already knew that many centuries before, so the question is, why did allah wait so long before telling the muslims this astounding peice of news?
I just wonder how people like londonspirit can stomach all the injustice in their religion, on one hand I find them caged and stunted by the prophet while on the other hand I consider them bad to the bone because they simply see the naked truth and decided to follow the opposite direction, I mean, some of us got out of the cage didn't we?
Nobody in his rational mind will consider the position of women in Islam gratifying unless that person is a Muslim or somone on a lip service , no sane and merciful prophet will get along with slavery, it is all too chauvinistic, the prophet being a man just decided everything to be more favorable to men both in this earthly sojourn and in the hallucinatory eternal residence of heaven, had the tables turned and a woman became the messenger, then all the glory would have been channelled towards women, the right to divorce men and 72 able machos will have been guaranteed to them in heaven.
I mean seriously, what kind of a lame excuse could an apologist find for taking captive women and having sex with them, I for one will be very asamed of defending such an embarrasing act, but amazingly Muslims could easily write pages defending such acts, could it be that their sense of dignity vanishes the moment they trust in the shameless prophet ? no wonder old men marry under-aged girls among them, I guess Muslims aren't that tough, if the threat of hell-fire will prevent people like londonspirit from speaking the truth, then the developed process of lie detection needs to be available as charity because people like them can hardly strive to get it for themselves.
#88. worldwearyguy
Let me play the devil's advocate here.
It is because this profit of satan lived in the desert with no contact with the outside world (muslims conveniently forget that mad mo worked for Khadija and traveled to other places). Now for a man who could'nt read or write (as if he could'nt hear when travelers were telling tall tails) it is only allah that could have given this trickster (gangster) this knowledge (suppose the meccan and medina jews of that time never mentioned all these obvious observations).
comment # 88>>>> Mr. worldwearyguy do you know the ancient Indians (see comment 52) and Greeks, who knew about the shape of the earth since time immemorial, were silly pagans, who would burn in hellfire eternally on the judgement day because they did not believe in Allah or his messenger and the Son of God? There is wealth of information in Quran and in its big brother. Why mention about silly Greeks or Indians or Mayans? Islam mentions PROFIT Muhammad was the 53rd messenger in the line after the great Adam was born. So if you go back in time, you will find that the earth was created approximately 6000 years ago. So much wealth is in Quran and in its big brother.
# 78 londonspirit, You repeat " Where in the quran does it say to kill innocent non-muslims"
In my earlier post it was mentioned all we have to do, is to study the life of muhammad from islamic sources itself, it is full of war, intolerence, bigotry, rapes, raids, wife stealings etc. All these unethical acts were considered noble and are found recorded in the quran, which commands muslims to emulate the deeds of muhammad. This is precisely why the muhammadenians are at perpetual war with the kafir world, terrorising, beheading, blowing in a market place, driving planes in buildings all the while happily chanting allahu akbar . Now referring back to the topic who is a 'innocent muslim' Is he the one conniving with the muslims, is he the one who is bowing down to the pressure tactics of muslims. Is he the one allowing to be subjuguated and happily paying the jizia tax.
#92 Sorry for the typo 'innocent muslims' in the last lines should be read as 'innocent non-muslims'
Dajjal
LS: You, of sourse, have a point about all human being "not perfect" at least.
The Bible tells Christians they are sinners and "mortal men" (ie fallible). The Koran tells Muslims they are the "best of people", not "perfect people".
So, does it not follow that Muslims should live up to that?
I'm sorry, but I don't understand this:
"So i dont stand correct when i say that hadith says that the leaders will be the worst of the people towards the end of time. "[sic]
Do you mean that you don't stand correctED, OR that you were wrong in what you said about the Hadith?
BTW: What hadith(s) say that the (Muslim) leaders will be the worst?
If the Hadith do say so, what does that say about Muslims who seek power and the methods that they use to seize it (I am thinking here of the 'legitamacy' in Islam of the violent overthrow of a Caliph etc).
And is it not sad that these leaders fail to miserably in respect of the Koranic claim I stated above (Muslims … best of people).
How far back would you say the 'modern leaders' go? Do you think that "good" Muslim leaders stopped with the "rightly guided Caliphs" for instance?
If so (or not for that matter), what does this say about Islamic methods of governance?
At least in the West the public can throw out politicians who pass the tolerance threshold for corruption! And (usually) without killing people.
Can the same be said in general of the "Dar-ul-Islam", or the "Dar -es-Salaam"?
BTW: do you not find the outcry about expenses a positive thing? How much worse would it be if the reaction was a shrug of the shoulders and a "well, what do you expect?" attitude?
However, this is all seriously off-topic!
So:
The world STILL isn't egg-shaped! (Though, if it collides with Mars, it may become so – briefly!) It is a "ball" (in common language) or an oblate spheroid to be more accurate (Which oblation is a consequence of its spin, btw, not inherent in its structure.)
And the Koran does equate the earth with a carpet = flat!
Jonc:
LS: You, of sourse, have a point about all human being “not perfect” at least.
The Bible tells Christians they are sinners and “mortal men” (ie fallible). The Koran tells Muslims they are the “best of people”, not “perfect people”.
I say:
When people are taught to believe they are the best of people it creates an arrogant attitude in people and therefore they are less likely to introspect themselves. Therefore they are less likely to see their imperfections.
JONC and MARIE:
This is what it said
Allah states that the Ummah of Muhammad is the best nation ever,
﴿كُنتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ﴾
Why was such a statement made? Because we follow the one true god without associating any partners. That is why the ummah of muhammed is the best nation ever. It has got nothing to do with individual attributes, it is talking in general.
Inregards to the bible. You confuse yourselves. Because you say jesus died for the sins of man kind. Therefore people should be sinless. But than you say everyone is born in sin. How can a baby be born in sin. Is it possible that a newly born baby can be sinful?. It makes no sense. And than if jesus died for the sins of mankind than all rapists and murderers should go to heaven because jesus died for their sins. IT IS STUPID. A baby is born with sin but a murderer and rapist and tyrant dies sinless. What kind of teaching is that.
ISLAM makes much more sense in saying no one carries the sins of other person. Your sins are based on your actions. Your good deeeds are based on your actions. This makes much more sense.
LS, let me get this straight: You claim that Muslims are the 'best' overall, yet with the worst leadership?
My question stands: why are muslims (in general) – who are the "best nation" – only choosing the worst people as their leaders?"
Seems a bit of a non-sequitur to me. Either that, or Moslems are irrational (to choose the worst to lead them as you claim).
Since it is off-topic I will reply breifly to the rest of your post:
"… you say jesus died for the sins of man kind. Therefore people should be sinless."
This is a definite non-sequitur. It's like saying "because I had a wash a week ago I will always be clean."
Sinless babies? Certainly. You are mis-understanding or mis-interpreting the doctrine of "original sin".
Rapist and Murderers in Heaven? You forget the need for repentance – and as I'm sure you will agree God can see the soul, so he knows if repentance is sincere.
If what you said was Christian doctrine you would be right – it would be STUPID,
but it isn't, so you aren't (right that is).
Fundamentally, Christianity and Islam agree about each person being responsible for the good and evil they do.
Where we differ is that to get to "paradise" a moslem either needs to die in Jihad (to be certain), or hope that he is 50.000000001% good – ie his good deeds outway his bad (just).
Christians on the other hand accept that they can never live up to the standard of God, hence we 'throw ourselves on God's mercy' as expressed in his Son to get to "paradise".
Perhaps in some ways Islam does make "more sense" (it's certainly more flattering to the human ego), but it is a very rickety 'bridge to heaven' you build from your good deeds! I prefer to place myself, in all humility, 'in God's hands', rather than rely on myself.
londonspirit:
Why was such a statement made? Because we follow the one true god without associating any partners. That is why the ummah of muhammed is the best nation ever. It has got nothing to do with individual attributes, it is talking in general.
I say:
That is the most ridiculous and stupid thing I ever heard of. Muslims are the best of people because they follow the one true god without associating any partners? Dude just because the Islamic god has no partners does not make his followers the best people. Religions should be judged on the quality of their message and teachings, not because it says there is only one god.
londonspirit:
ISLAM makes much more sense in saying no one carries the sins of other person. Your sins are based on your actions. Your good deeeds are based on your actions. This makes much more sense.
I say:
Here's what Islam says about obtaining salvation: By professing faith in Allah as the one and only god, follow the five pillars, and exc, you are saved. Dude anyone can do these things, including Hitler. Would Hitler be saved if he professed in Allah as the one and only god, performed the five pillars, and exc?
to Londonspirit #96
Have you read the e- book I suggested in my post above pal? ” Miracle of the Quran Exposed” under the section: “Mountain as Pegs”, by Mr Amar Khan.
It's better to stay tuned to the original topic. Hope other posters wont bombard Londonspirit with so many questions that cause him to divert from the issues entirely.
Humanity is but one family.
islam related disscusion is never off-topic! its all one topic, ONE BIG LIE!
***Allah states that the Ummah of Muhammad is the best nation ever, why such statement made, Because we follow the one true god***
before we talk about true god, how do we know if allah said that stupid words?
no other witness, at least if bible is another fairy tales, its got similarity over different quotation sources.
If god didn't want us to check and crosschecked, by using our brain and logic, he could just create us as a goat roaming the savana in the dessert, why he needs to send messenger that no one allowed to witness and test wheater he's true messenger or not.
whats the different?, if we have to follow mad ham mo, without allow us to using our brain (thats been created as highest inteligent creature) to challange the contradictive and sensless word of god, with creating us as a goat with limited brain.
Im sure goats doing much better, even if they fight each others head on, they just an animal, and they don't have burden to justify it over a piece of toilet papper if they fight each others.
we dont follow true god, WE'VE BEEN FORCE TO FOLLOW OR ELSE, look on islamic timeline, full of conquer, conquest and battle over the spreading of this LIE, even after mad ham mo been sent to hell they have ri'da war, thats another good example of killing apostasy, they know its BS but they been force back to submit to these stupidity, so don't tell us we FOLLOW, todays generation just simply PRESERVED THE LIE, why do you think they get so sensitive when talk about theirs?
whats so true about this god?,
by killing people if they attack us?, FIGHT people UNTIL NO OTHER RELIGION than ALLAH…..?, hey…… i thought "WE FOLLOW TRUE GOD" (sily me.., its only thin sugarcoating)
by allowing beating your wive after not giving sex to her……wooow allah talking dirty:)
You ask these two example to dallai lama, im sure he will come up with much reasonable and much divine answer, so why don't we worship him
1.5 billian people way of thinking is different that the rest, while our logic tell us 1+1 = 2, but muslim mind see it as 1+1 = 11
im not hatred, just using my brain, don't get upset goat'sbrain owner, cos you will never understand, remember,
"allah has made some people never gonna understand, they've been told (by previous), but they didn't see"
(god has power over satan, this is one of verse that 'real god' inserted)
Comment removed for abusive language.
Moderator
London Spirit, meditate the sage advise Demsci gave to the Muslims. There is no other way for you to come out of the blind path archaic Islam is heading. Muslims are constrained to defend the undefendable in all realms. It is so painfull to see. Nothing good can comes from a book such as the Quran. It is a book of war, of division, of threats and fear. And it will never bear any other fruits. Open your eyes.
The Quran says the earth is flat. Period. Muhammad is not a poor victim who was constrained to defend himself. He wanted every one to recognise him as the prophet of god, willy nilly. A man of God has no right to wage war. Period. Muhammad was not a man of God but, as Marie says, a Satan’s disciple, so to speak. Just look. Open your eyes. Look where Islam is heading Muslims. Read newspapers. Just look at the actual discussion. It is obvious : the Quran says the earth is flat like a carpet. I am broken-hearted to see you twist every words to avoid to admit what is obvious. I understand you : you must sustain all the incoherent crap this unlearned and incoherent and capricious Muhammad said, otherwise you would be obliged to admit that Islam is nothing more than a forgery of a man to gain power and wealth. This is painfull. Meditate what Demsci said. This is the less you can do, even if that could be a little utopic. Sooner or later Muslims will come to that otherwise Muslims will collectively fall into total madness. The only way to avoid this issue is to accept a profound revision of Islam. Begin now.
“And if Muslims would be humble, they would not have to defend the almost indefendable outdated Quran. They would say that they use its good parts, combined with much other available wisdom. They would prefer it even that all people can share all their critical and alternative thoughts freely with each other, so that the best of wisdom and guidance can be found and used for progress, more prosperity, happiness.”
What is with you people using the word PERIOD. Why say such a word. That shows you dont want to listen to other peoples comment. Your head is fixed on one matter and thats it.
Kenmirzz you told me to look at an e-book in regards to mountains as pegs.
George Airy stated in 1865 that all mountain chains on earth are floating blocks on a sea of magma (i.e. molten rock material beneath the earth’s crust) and that all such molten material is denser than the mountains themselves. As a result, the mountains must dive into this high density material to maintain their uprightness.
Geologists discovered the fact that the earth’s crust is made of adjacent patches called continental plates and that mighty mountains float on a sea of molten material and higher-density rocks below the surface. They also discovered that mountains have roots that help them float and keep fastened to the plates of the earth so it will not shake. In 1948, the Geologist Van Anglin stated in his book Geomorphology (on page no. 27) that it is quite well understood currently that there is a root for each mountain below the crust of the earth.
The function of mountains on the earth is to fasten the crust of the earth. This fact was proven by the principle of hydrostatic balance of the earth as illustrated by the US Geologist Dutton, in 1889. He stated that the protrusions of the earth are immersed into the earth in a way that conforms to their height. Moreover, after the existence of the plates of the earth was proven in 1969, it became clear that the mountains are responsible for maintaining the equilibrium of all the plates.
The book entitled “Earth” is one of the many now on the market. Frank Press, author of this book, is the president of the Academy of Sciences, adviser to Jimmy Carter, ex-President of the USA. This author likens the mountains to wedges, the greater part of which remain underneath the surface of the earth. In this book, Dr. Press explains the functions of mountains, drawing special attention to their important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth.
Continental orogenic belts are the result of plate boundary interaction, which can take place between oceanic and continental lithospheric plates that reaches its climax when two continents come into collision after consuming the ocean floor that used to separate them. Such continent/continent collisions result in the scraping off of all sediments and sedimentary rocks, as well as all volcanic rocks that have accumulated on the ocean floor, squeezing them between the two colliding continents, crumpling them considerably in the form of mountains. This is immediately followed by the cessation of movement for the two colliding continental plates which become welded together with considerable crustal shortening (in the form of giant thrusts and infrastructural napes) and considerable crustal thickening (in the form of the decoupling of the two lithospheric plates as well as their penetration by the deep downward extensions of the mountain chains then formed). Such downward extensions of the mountains are commonly known as "mountain roots" and are several times their protrusion above the ground surface. The sea-deep roots stabilize the continental masses (or plates), as plate motions are almost completely halted by their formation, especially when the mountain mass is finally entrapped within a continent as an old craton.
Again, the notion of a plastic layer (asthenosphere) directly below the outer rocky cover of the Earth (lithosphere) makes it possible to understand why the continents are elevated above the oceanic basins, why the crust beneath them is much thicker (30-40) km) than it is beneath the oceans (5-8 km) and why the thickness of the continental plates (100-150 km) is much greater than that of the oceanic plates (65 70 km). This is simply because of the fact that the less dense lithosphere (about 2.7 to 2.9 gm/cm³) floats in the asthenosphere, in exactly the same way as an iceberg floats in the oceanic waters.
In as much as mountains have very deep roots, all other elevated regions such as plateaus and continents must have corresponding (although much shallower) roots, extending downward into the asthenosphere. In other words, the entire lithosphere is floating above the plastic or semi-plastic asthenosphere, and its elevated structures are held steadily by their downwardly plunging roots (test-fig. 10).
Lithospheric plates move about along the surface of the Earth in response to the way in which heat flows arrive at the base of the lithosphere (text-fig. 11), aided by both the rotation and the wobbling of the Earth around its own axis. There is enough geologic evidence to support the fact that both processes have been much more active in the distant geologic past, slowing gradually with time. Consequently, it is believed that plate movements operated much more rapidly in the early stages of the creation of the Earth and have been steadily slowing down with the steady building-up of mountains and the accretion of continents. This slowing down of plate movements may also have been aided by a steady slowing down in the speed of the Earth's rotation around its own axis (due to the operating influence of tides which is attributed to the gravitational pull of both the sun and the moon). This steady slowing down of plate movement could also have been aided by a steady decrease in the amount of heat arriving from the interior of the Earth towards its surface as a result of the continued consumption of the source of such heat flows which is believed to be the decay of radioactive elements.
Now KERIMEZZ it clearly says from these texts that mountains are like pegs with roots that go deep into the surface of the earth and are also used to stablize the earth.
CLAUDE i am open minded i have only asked for one thing in return from you guys which was to find a single verse from the quran that states that muslims must kill non-muslims. I havent asked for anything else have i. If you assume that prophet muhammed waged war than prove it with a single verse.
Your relying on Maries claim who thinks earth has got corners and the mountains are pillars to hold the sky because thats exactly what the bible says.
In regards to you saying looks whats happening around the world. Yes i can see the fights in muslim countries like in pakistan but it is not islam thats heading them to literal annilation. Becuause islam teaches that killing another muslim is like kufr. So they shouldnt be killing in the first place.
Why cant you claude open your eyes to the people who are starting these wars. You tell me why would america pay the following:
Since 2002, the United States has sent roughly $10 billlion in aid to Pakistan.
Who pays someone this amount of money to fight terror. I tell you. its a country that doesnt want blood on their hands. You cant see the psychological game they are playing. You seem oblivious to these actions that your goverment are doing. The worst thing you are oblivious to is that fact that war between nations are going up and the only country that is benefiting in terms of funds is the USA.
I aint oblivious to these signs, i can clearly see it but CLAUDE why dont you open your eyes to what is actually going on. Before 9/11 how many so called suicide bombers were there, which muslim country attacked its own people.
londonspirit:
Now KERIMEZZ it clearly says from these texts that mountains are like pegs with roots that go deep into the surface of the earth and are also used to stablize the earth.
I say:
Pegs have no roots and there is more then one kind of pegs in the world such as tuning pegs and toy pegs. Also the use of the word peg is a bad description for a mountain since pegs can be removed.
londonspirit:
Your relying on Maries claim who thinks earth has got corners and the mountains are pillars to hold the sky because thats exactly what the bible says.
I say:
I never made that statement and where in the Bible does it say the mountains are pillars to hold the sky?
YUSUFALI: He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power – He Who forgives again and again?
letz analyze what the analysis paragraph says….
it is true that …the earth revolves around the sun….but how does that make this verse wrong????
this verse is talking about the movements of sun and the moon …. does the moon not revolve around the earth and rotate around its axis??? yes it does.
is the sun a stationary body???? No, it completes its rotation with in 25 to 27 days……
then whats the point in the analysis paragraph…….????i didnt find 1
Thank you Claude, for your support. You well understand that Muslims have this almost impossible task their religion has saddled upon them of proving, even beyond reason, that the Quran is perfect, valid for all time, the literal word of God. This is a 1400-year old book, yet every possible mistake in it now still hurts them! Because we like to change this arrogant attitude, it is so wonderful that FFI keeps highlighting the Holy Islamic Scriptures and their interpretations.
Islam is a limiting and blockading religion. Precisely because it elevates its wisdom and guidance above alternative teachings when these contradicts it. Not letting the best of what mankind produced in wisdom and guidance win on its merits alone. Merits for progress, prosperity, longevity, peace, happiness for as many people as possible.
Maybe Muslims could consider keeping the best of their religion, much of what is so dear to them, but relinquish this perfection-claim. And start supplementing or even replacing their Islamic wisdom and guidance with good or better alternative teachings. They can see God as inspiring the Quran, but not having dictated it. They can further consider that God did NOT stop his inspiration after Muhammed.
As for LondonSpirit's blaming America; Well, America is certainly not perfect, but Muslims of course see America as the biggest opponent/ obstacle to Dar-ul-Islam, and this is the main reason for most of their hatred and criticism on this great country.
Ibn Kammuna
In Islamic Science (sounds of loud laughter) the earth's shape is compared to an ostrich's egg because Muslims love to emulate the noble and pious ostrichs by burying their collective heads in the sands of self-imposed ignorance.
The Muslims also love to bang their heads on the ground. This explains their self-imposed brain damage. How else do you explain their nonsense posing as science?
Note :
Ptolemy’s cosmos : circa 150
The celestial realm is spherical, and moves as a sphere
The earth is a sphere.
The earth is at the center of the cosmos
The Earth, in relation to the distance of the fixed stars, has no appreciable size and must be treated as a mathematical point.
The Earth does not move. (Wikipedia)
The Arabs translated Ptolemy’s book in 9th century. What Muhammad – Allah did knew about all that in 7th century ? If we rely on the Quran, nothing, because he would have spoken more clearly, more simply with more precision. (“more precision” is an euphemism !) When fundamentalist Islam regained power over the rationalists and decreed the Quran the only book necessary for Muslims, maybe the earth became flat again as they read it in “clear arabic” in the “Book explained in detail”.
LS. It was an other topic and I understand your boredom. I apologise.
…and Muslims in the 13th century founded islamic universities to re-acquire their ignorance of yore. (of the old days) …..
London Spirit, I would like to believe you, but, unfortunately, it is impossible. However I appreciate your efforts. Blind faith only can make someone believe in the science in the Quran. (or in the OT). For me, there is something almost pathetic in this pretention. But I understand : Muslims shield the Quran as their own life. It’s seems to be almost a question of life and death. For me, it’s only a question of reality, of likelihood. I weigh all Muslims arguments, I read what the Quran says and I conclude that the Quran is total confusion on this topic. God spoke confusedly. It looks very bad for the author and for the muslims. I am amazed that all this stuff is clear for you.
If the Quran was revealed by God the All Knowing, this God was rather lazy and neglectfull and of trivial inspiration, in my opinion. Knowing what He knows, beeing what He is supposed to be, I would have done much better. I would have taken my time (God has the eternity) and I would have composed, for my last message, a clear masterpiece of intelligence, of spirituality, of peace, of hope, and wisdom and I would not have laid my message to such easy criticism and blame. In regard to the earth, I would not have spoken of carpet, murky swamp, pegs and pillars, confusing everybody. I would not have permit Muhammad to compose two suraths of his own to serve his lust and one to curse his aunt and uncle of atrocious manner and no wars, no plunder, no slavery, no beheadings, no curses, no division, no apes and pigs, no …… But this is another topic, my dear LS. This is my last commentary.
#115. londonspirit
Self defence?WTF? The hadith explains the verses in the quran to the tee. Any human being with a little grey matter between the ears, can see that it was mohammad and his goons who initiated all the fighting.
And I would not have been feared but loved, my faithfull would not have believed in me and followed my wisdom for an eternity of sex in heaven but for spiritual enlightment and mystical love in the hereafter. I would not have commited my message to an angel who scared and almost choked to death an illiterate arab who believed he has been assaulted by a devil and wanted to commit suicide afterward. I would not have commited my last message to an illitarate arab whose scribes wrote it on omoplats of camels and pieces of bark scattered here and there. My message would not have been so much confused as to make people believe I asked them to kill in my name. I would not have bound my people to poison and enslave their life with meaningless rites and prescriptions. You know, I would not have chosen such an angel, such a man, nor such a message. In fact, I would not have let Satan usurpate my name, distorted my image and deceived millions of men.
It may well happen that nor God nor satan exist. I just say “if”. If they do not exist, just as man of good will and of good heart, I can understand what Muslims don’t, namely that the life of a man such as Muhammad is an awfull exemple to follow for me and my children and a book such as the Quran full of war of plunder of killing of fear and curses and violence and incoherences is a mortal danger for the mental health of my mind and my heart. How come Muslims do not see that like daylight ? The Great Deceiver must chuckle somewhere.
This is said, abstraction done of any individual muslim. I speak about Islam, about the foundation and the core of its message, about what everybody can read in the so called holy scriptures of Islam. A fact is a fact.
Damn ! I still forgot that this is out topic. But is it really ? Scientific learnings in the Quran are of the same standard as its moral learnings, void and non existent. The high arrogance and pretentions of Islam are in the same proportion of the mediocrity of his message and his messenger.
IBNSAHR your doing it again. What is wrong with you people. Whats with this
-don’t take jews and Christian as friend
-fight them where ever you find them
-kill the enemy of allah
You clearly no that these verses are out of context. Your not proving nothing by quoting such extracton of verses. Mate you doing that only fooling yourself. My challenge was to you people just a single verse not out of context that says to kill innocent non muslims. Its a simple challenge, and you people just go over the same verses out of context to justify your claims. It just goes to prove that there aint a single verse from the quran that says to kill innocent.
IBNSAHR you know as well as i do that dont take jews and chrisitans as your friends is reffering to a matter in relation to hypocrite. You also know as well as i do that where it says fight them wherever you find them is in regards to when the pagan arabs came all out to try and kill them. It clearly shows your ignorance. Why? because if you read the verses above and below that it would say dont fight the people that dont attack you or do not kill the woman and children and the elderly when your at war or for the take the war prisinors to a safe and secure place.. Look at the beauty. Nowadays soldiers kill anyone and even rape woman if they feel like it or even torture the prisoners.
No where will you get a better book describing the art of war. Mate i dont follow religion blindly. I have studied christianity texts which confused the hell out of me because just too many contradictions and claims that jesus never actually mentioned. Hinduism i dont wanna even go there and so on. All in all islam was the only truthful religion. You dont have to belive me in this just look at the amazing number of converts that are happening around the world.
Claude you talk about confusing people but if i was to talk about how the speed of light is achieved would you understand the mathamatics behind it. Pegs may sound simple enough for us but in those days what their brain could comprehend is much lower than what we can comprehend today.
In regards to talking about muhammed wanting to commit suicide after seeing angel jibrael. Let me ask you one thing. If you saw something you never seen before wouldnt you be scared. Even if you saw an angel with all its humble ness you would be scared because it is something out of the extrodinary. If you saw a lion you would be scared upto youre cheek bones. So dont say why muhammed was scared. He is also human and he saw something out the extradoniry and he was scared and he shivered. Whats wrong with that.
This is just pitiful of you to try and use this as a basis of argument.
LS
***dont fight the people that dont attack you or do not kill the woman and children and the elderly when your at war or for the take the war prisinors to a safe and secure place.. Look at the beauty***
look at the beauty…?, what beauty?, I didn’t find the whole verses make sense at all, we talk about something divine, love and peace, that is god, there shouldn’t be war in the first place, is there any story about war in NT, or in buddha, or may be in hindu script try to agitate the people to fight back, but look at you, saying it with proud and you said its written in quran, if people fight you you fight back, if not you look after them, who are you muslim??, are you arrogant illiterate?
look lS, your mind is locked to submit your intellect to stupidity in the name of islam no matter what reality shows you.
Galaxy is created first then earth, we have technology to turn back time as you may know, but you still cling to quran that says, after create earth then satan turn to sky what is this? and you believe it?? Whos giving argument base of nonsense?
London Spirit,
Angel Gabriel is much more corteous with women, it seems,. Virgin Mary was not afraid at all. No other prophet experienced this violent and terrifying encounter with God or an Angel. NO ONE except Muhammad. The angel Muhammad encountered was a bully and his master was not God. It was Satan and if Satan does not exists it was the fruit of Muhammad sick mind. The result of this terrible and disturbing beginning is Islam and his terrible history. Open you eyes.
Muhammad claimed, without any proof, that he was the prophet of God, insulted polytheists, and threathed them, ridiculed their gods and goddesses. He was the first agressor.
Muhammad waged war against those he had offended and treathen and who were defending themselves, their faith, their caravans, their wealth.
Muhammad waged non defensive war and threated people who prefered to take care of their families, their heards ad their fields because they saw no ennemies and no danger and no need to fight. Muhammad wanted their help for his own interest, for conquests and plunder.
To say that Muhammad was the agressed and was defending himself is false.
Muhammad had not the wisdom nor the spiritual aura to convince people peacefully. War and violence was a necessity. Also is message was so mediocre that he has no chance to convince anyone without violence. He used dirty tricks like faking divine revelations to fool credulous people. and serve his megalomania, power trip and lust. You are one of those credulous disciple of this man, LS !
It is amazing to see how a Muslims can be blind. Incredible !
“Pegs may sound simple enough for us but in those days what their brain could comprehend is much lower than what we can comprehend today.”
– My poor LS, How your brain can understand now what was expressed in an uncomprehensible manner then. How can you understand now, as clear and evident what was uncomprehensible then ? Now, after Copernic and Gallilea, we know the explanation, it is why you can find in what was incomprehensible in the Quran a scientific “thruth” Otherwise something which is uncomprehensible CAN’T be a scientific truth. What is a truth expressed in incomprehensible manner ? It does not say anything to anybody. It is meaningless. And you tell us that these meeningless sentences in the Quran are scientific explanations. Can your modern brain understand this ?
“single verse not out of context that says to kill innocent non muslims.”– INNOCENT, the problem is Who IS INNOCENT, who is guilty ? Guilty of what, innocent of what ? Who decide ? All that is arbitrary. INNOCENT is a licence to kill anybody you want.
“dont take jews and chrisitans as your friends is reffering to a matter in relation to hypocrite.” –Quran is eternal words of God. Who is hypocrite ? Hypocrite when, how How can Jews and Christians not beeing hypocrites ? By becoming Muslims. Period !
“fight them wherever you find them is in regards to when the pagan arabs came all out to try and kill them.” –Why an eternal book become suddenly historic book ? What about the Quran, eternal message of God to humanity ?
“not kill the woman and children and the elderly” –but you can, with the appoval of God- Muhammad, behead 900 Jews because an injured Muhammad’s companion was mad of vengeance. Muhammad is God and when he approves, God approves and you approve and all Muslims approve. Enslave children and women,buy them, sell them, violate them, behead a husband in front of his wife and copulate with her the same day, Muhammad is litterally God and God’s will whatever he do. Pityfull! You see marvels in this !
LS, God is Muhammad and Muhammad is God, that’s why you are paralyzed intellectually and morally when you are in front of evil perpetrated by your prophet. You are a party to all this, my friend a moral accomplice.This is a diabolic phenomenon.
London Spirit,
This is what everybody tells you from the beginning of this discussion : there is no scientific truths in the Quran. The one you see is the one you project in it , from you zealot and blind-faithtfull mind and heart. Without Ptolemea, Copernic and Galillea, Quran is meaningless in regard to the earth and science in general. It says only what people believed at this time, and what Muhammad-God believed and told. No more.
Marvels Muslims want to see in this mediocre Quran is a desperate and impossible attempt to divinize it. If Quran is not divine, their faith is not divine. If Quran is not of divine origin, there is only one alternative : it has been forged by Muhammad and muslims are badly deluded and lead astray, then and now.
This question of the marvelous science we find in the Quran is just another way to fly forward in order to delude and blind themselves in front of what is so evident for all of us. Muslims are in a real psychological imprisonnement. This leads to ruin all capacity to reason clearly and objectively. This leads to insanity. And insanity leads to violence, misery and chaos.
Islam began with a psychologically unstable man who has been terrorised by a ruthless angel.
Muslims don't have any other choice in front of all the evil of Muhammad's life and violence and incohences of the Quran than idealized all that and, doing so, to loose foot from the reality, with the good sense and, finally, with different intensity, with all what is best in them, as human beings; the extreme is when a Muslim make suicide in a market, shouting "Allahu Akhbar !" This is the ultimate consequences of Muhammad's manipulations and his pretentions to communicate with God and making believe to people of "lower brain", as LS say it so nicely, that all his bad deeds was appoved and even asked for by God.
The ancient Greeks and Romans, as well as most leaders of ancient times knew the eather was round. So What. Columbus never thought the world was flat, neither did Ferdinand, Isabella, Queen Elizabeth I. The sphere of office many leaders held symbolized the world.
This is a myth.
LS,
Mountains do not have roots, period. The crust is thicker under mountains, and is pushed up by the volcanic action under the crust.
Yes,:-)
"82. kenmirzz Says:
June 25th, 2009 at 3:28 am
to Mr Londonspirit #78
You said: Science tells as that mountains are used to prevent or stop earth quakes. SO wouldnt you say mountains are used to stablize the earth.
I am afraid that this is not true pal. Most of the earthquakes that occur around the world have been in mountainous area, rather than Steppe area with vast grass field. I suggest you read the online book my Mr Amar Khan: ” Miracle of the Quran Exposed” under the section: “Mountain as Pegs”.
Simple fact, and lived in earthquake prone SoCal for 52 years. Shake rattle and roll.
London Spirit,
It is true that the Quran does not say “ believe or I will kill you.” I know it. But what Quran says comes to the same. Let me explain you this : I am a polytheist in Mecca. My faith and my ancestor’s god and goddesses are dear to me and full of meanings. Muhammad comes, insults my gods, insults me, curses me, tell me the hell will be my home in the hereafter. What must I do ? Obviously I resist. Muhammad is weak, I force him to exile. What when Muhammad comes back with a strong army and we both seems equal in strenght ? What do I do ? I fight for my values and those of my ancestors. If I begin to loose the battle, what are my choices ? If I am sincerely faithfull and courageous I keep on fighting because there is a chance I could win. If all is lost, I fight until death. What about those who surrender, LS ? I surrender but I refuse the faith of the victor or I surrender and I submit to him physically and psychologically. Some choose one or the other alternatives. Some may fly in an other town or country.
As long as I fight I can be kill physically. If I stop fighting, I must submit to Islam. If I surrender totally, I am safe. If I do not, my life is one of a paria. I am humiliated, I must pay heavy taxe. I must worship secretely. I may be labelled arbitrarily as someone “ who is spreading mischief in the land” and kill. No laws protect me. This means that I am almost a dead person in a Muslim society. For us, unbelievers and “pagans”, Mohammad said the equivalent of “believe or die”. Go tell Hindus and Persians and all others, that Muslims invaders misinterpreted God-Muhammad. If they misinterpreted him it is because all his call to kill taken in bulk means: if you resist me you are killed, if you submit physically, maybe you will be killed, maybe not. If you surrender your body and your soul, you will be safe but not among the chosen one Arabs.
How about such a religious message, LS ? Yes, what a wonder ! What a sublime message from the creator of all men. Muhammad made God like himself, as despotic, as egotist, intolerant, violent, arbitrary The God of Muhammad is mediocre humanly and spiritually, LS.
Yes we are in the 21th century. It would be embarassing for Muslims to imitate and emulate their divine prophet. They do it, more or less secretely, in Muslim counties but outside, they can’t. They still can’t.
Islam is a big enterprise of submission, not to God but to Muslims and the Muslims do not worship an elevated image of God (Men can think God only through an image, noboby knows who God is really), Muslims worship the God Muhammad forged through his sick mind. Muslims do not worship God but Muhammad. If Muhammad had been a holy man, he would have imagine God as love, as a kind of loving father or more intellectually as the Brahman, the Buddha. and Muslims would have been admired for their genuine and admirable image of God which would have enriched humanity and nobody would have been ashamed to worship him. This not the case, unfortunatly. Shame on Muhammad ! And I would not have been here to vilify his religion as I do it now with sadness.
IBNSAHR you say there is no war stories in other scriptures. Have you even read the other scriptures. There are war stories in the hindu and christian and jewish scriptures. And some of the wars related in these scriptures says to kill every woman and children. There wouldnt be any war if it wasnt for ignorant people creating it, just like we see nowadays.
IBNSAHR: look lS, your mind is locked to submit your intellect to stupidity in the name of islam no matter what reality shows you.
ANSWER: Yes my mind is locked NOW because as stupid as you are you have failed in my challenge. You wont find a single verse that says to kill innocent. And you also know that the only time muslims are ordered to kill is at a time of self defence. If you look at the quran chapters as follows:
Name Translation Meccan or Medinan Chapter Number of verses
Al Fatiha The Opening
Al Baqara The Cow
Al Imran The Family of Imran
An Nisa' The Women
Al Maida The Table
Al An'am Livestock/The Cattle Meccan
Al A'raf The Heights
Al Anfal The Spoils of War/Battle Gain
At Tawba The Repentance
Yunus Jonah
Hud The Prophet Hud
Yusuf Joseph
Ar Ra'd The Thunder
Ibrahim Abraham
Al Hijr The Rocky Tract
An nahl The Bee
Al Isra' The Journey by Night
Al Kahaf The Cave
Marayam Mary
Ta Ha Ta. Ha
Al Anbiya' The Prophets
Al Hajj The Pilgrimage
Al Mu'minun The Believers
An Nur The Light
Al Furqan The Differentiator
Ash Shu'ara' The Poets
An Naml The Ants
Al Qasas The Story
Al 'Ankabut The Spider
Ar Rum The Romans (The Byzantines?)
Only one chapter is talking about the spoils of war. Two are in relation to jesus and mary, which the bible itself doesnt have and there is a number of verses in relation to animals and insects and many verses about stories of other prophets. So where are the chapters on killing. There aint a single one. Am i deluding myself or is it you?.
IBNSAHR wrote: Galaxy is created first then earth, we have technology to turn back time as you may know, but you still cling to quran that says, after create earth then satan turn to sky what is this? and you believe it?? Whos giving argument base of nonsense?
ANSWER: What are you talking about here. If your referring to earth being created before the galaxy, the quran speaks of no such thing. See the problem with you people who cant quote a full verse without editing it. Get your facts straight mate.
CLAUDE WROTE: The angel Muhammad encountered was a bully and his master was not God. It was Satan and if Satan does not exists it was the fruit of Muhammad sick mind. The result of this terrible and disturbing beginning is Islam and his terrible history. Open you eyes.
ANSWER: If it was satan that plunged into muhammeds mind, why would muhammed ask for the slaves to be freed?. Why would muhammed tell the people to give there employees their salaries before a single sweat drop fell?. Why would muhammed tell his people that saving a life of a single being is like saving whole of mankind?. why would muhammed say that do not overload yourdonkeys as they also feel pain?. Why would muhammed say all of this. Surely the purpose of the devil is to do bad actions.
The pagan arabs offered muahmmed everything to stop his preaching and join their ways, which was to drink, commit adultry, worship idols, open the bellies of the pregnant, bury alive their daughters and so on. Why would muhammed reject such cruel actions if he was possesed by the devil. Surely he would have accepted it immediately cvonsidering all were bad actions. You claim is pathetic and utterly stupid may i say. You further wrote
Muhammad claimed, without any proof, that he was the prophet of God, insulted polytheists, and threathed them, ridiculed their gods and goddesses. He was the first agressor.
ANSWER: Muhammed was known by all the best names in the arab language before he became a prophet. What proof did moses have and jonah or all the other prophets. The only prophet that had proof was jesus. Because he proided miraclous feats on a regular basis. Muahmmed and moses only showed miracolous feats only when neccessary.
Muhammed never insulted polythesist only told them to stop worshipping idols just like everyother prophets. He never transgressed against the arab pagans. They transgressed against his people by placing them in the outskirts of makkah for three years. Khadija his wife had to sell her belongings to look after these people and so did abu bakar another wealthy person. So you tell me who aggressed first?
IBNSAHR WROTE:
Muhammad waged war against those he had offended and treathen and who were defending themselves, their faith, their caravans, their wealth.
ANSWER: Muhammed only fought in self defence. If you know the history of the wars you can clearly see that. The first war happened because the arabs sold all muhammed followers belongings and made some money out of them. So muhammed told his people to take back their belongings from the caravan, which sparked the inital war. This war wouldnt have happened if the pagan arabs never tried to be greedy and sell these peoples belongings. So get your facts straight CLAUDE.
CLAUDE WROTE:
Muhammad waged non defensive war and threated people who prefered to take care of their families, their heards ad their fields because they saw no ennemies and no danger and no need to fight. Muhammad wanted their help for his own interest, for conquests and plunder.
ANSWER: Where the hell did you get this piece of information from?
CLAUDE in relation to your post 124 i found it really funny, your just repeating the same verses again, which has been answered not just by me but by every muslim who hears this verse. Why do you quote the same verses over and over and over again. These are the same verses ALI SINA and GEERT WILDERS. I cant belive people who have earned doctorate degrees cant see their flaws of quoting these verses. Can i ask you CLAUDE have you even read the quran or are these some verses you found on the internet?
In regards to miracles of the quran. I have shown scientific statements from doctors but yet you deny. What else can i do. mate if you dont belive than dont. No one is forcing it upon you.
CLAUDE WROTE:
Quran than idealized all that and, doing so, to loose foot from the reality, with the good sense and, finally, with different intensity, with all what is best in them, as human beings; the extreme is when a Muslim make suicide in a market, shouting “Allahu Akhbar !” This is the ultimate consequences of Muhammad’s manipulations and his pretentions to communicate with God and making believe to people of “lower brain”, as LS say it so nicely, that all his bad deeds was appoved and even asked for by God.
This is just an abolute stupid quote by you claude. It is truly pathetic. Quran says if you kill someone its like killing whole of mankind. Quran also says if you kill a muslim its like commiting kufr. so how the hell can suicide bomber be doing a right job. And how can it be a manipulation of muhammed.
And when did i say that all his bad deeds was appoved and even asked for by God. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT HERE. YOUR IGNORANCE PERSISTS YOU TO MUCH
ASPACEA i have provided you scientific statements from doctors which shows that mountains have roots. And your telling me they dont, again using the word PERIOD, indicating you belive in your ideology and not wishing to learn from others. Now if doctors in their lifetime fields are saying mountains have roots and you with your low intellectual brain saying they dont. Who do you think i will believe?
Hi friends
I think the discussion is going off-topic; to bring it on the topic, I would request somebody to quote a verse from the text of Quran with the usual context of five preceding verses and five following verses and then establish that Quran/Islam/Muhammad maintained that Earth is flat.
If there is no such verse in Quran; then why to prolong this discussion; just for winning?!
Love for all; hatred for none.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
I misuse terribly of this eletronic page which seems to have indefite length, may be infinite length like the universe. The space is infinite but our time is not, unfortunately and I would not like to make you waste yours. I apologize for those I importune but to end the matter, (I hope so), I must still add one thing : after all the bad things I said about Muhammad and Islam, let me honestly do justice to Muhammad and the Quran for one good saying, the only blameless one I found in the entire book.
It’s Q: 9, 29 : “ I may give away all that I have to feed the poor; I may give myself to be burnt at the stake; if I lack charity, it goes for nothing. Charity is patient, is kind, charity feels no envy; charity is never perverse or proud, never insolent, does not claim its rights, connot be provoked, does not brood over an injury; takes no pleasure in wrong-doing, but rejoices at the victory of truth; sustains, believes, hopes, endures to the last.”
Thank you God Muhammad for this.
London Spirit,
LS, I can assure you that I read Quran, and more than once, and longtime before I met Ali Sina and FFI. Long time ago I had come to the same conclusion. London Spirit, you wonder me ! Here is my answer on this famous quotation Obama used and which is so often use by IGNORANT Muslims. Don’t you know this ?
Quran : 4,15 says : “We ordained for the Children of Israël that if any one slew a person….etc, he saved the live of the whole people” Allah NEVER ordained this for the Jews. This is not in the Torah. It is in the Talmud, Mishna Sanhedrin. Even, the Talmud is ill quoted : Muhammad added something of his own which is nor in the Torah nor in the Talmud : “unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land”. Why this addition, do you think ? To reserve to himself and Muslims the right to kill with the full agreement of “God”, in fact, to justify his own murders in the name of God.(Obama is ignorant of Islam, obviously !) Quran is written by Muhammad for his own conveniance. Nobody has the right to kill, ABOVE ALL, in the name of God !
By imputing this falsified quotation to God, Muhammad perpetrates a terrible crime. He lowered God to his level or, if you want, he made a God who will serve himself and not a God he will serve. What a burden it would have been for him if he did not have made this little addition of his own. God gives no one the right to kill and Muhammad needs to kill otherwise he has not the wisdom, the spiritual aura to convince pacifically his fellow citizens of the mission he attributes to himself. This is the plain and blunt reality about Muhammad, this man Muslims don’t really know.
PS. I Corinthians, 4-6
Paarsurrey:
As has been stated before (by myself and others) there is no verse in the Koran that states (in so many words) "the earth is flat".
However, if you look at comment #25 by London Spirit, you will see the following words and their etymology (again my thanks to LS for this):
madad = protract , reach , elongate , extend , draw out , lengthen, stretch out , spread out , sprawl , dilate , reach , range , unwind , outstretch , pervade , lengthen
mahdan = (Noun) cradle.or bed, (verb) FLATTEN , smoothen , smooth , LEVEL , cement , grade , ram ,PLANE , roll , FLAT , LEVEL OFF
farasha = provide with furniture , FLATTEN , outspread , pervade , circulate , cement , grade , unwind , stretch , expand , FLAT, range , reach , ram , spread out , lengthen , sprawl , unfold , LEVEL OFF , ROLL OUT , LEVEL
bisaatan = drugget , carpet , rug from the verb بسط = outspread , FLATTEN , FLAT, even , ram , grade , LEVEL OFF , outstretch , pave ,LEVEL , SMOOTHEN , roll , cement
(Emphasis mine.)
These words are used in many verses describing the Earth as a "carpet".
Setting aside the obvious point that carpets are flat in nature rather than oblate spheroids, 3/4 of these words convey the clear meaning of "flat". Furthermore (according to LS's comment) it is "mahdan" that is used more than others.
Thus, even though the Koran (as acknowledged) does not SAY "The Earth is flat" it does CONVEY that meaning quite clearly.
LS, you wrote: "literally i am tired of repeating myself because those verses have been answered in many other forums like me. You cannot take a verse out of context to justify your needs. Why dont you spend time researching on these verses and ou will get an idea on why the muslims went to war. I can say it now that muslims only fought in self defense."
The problem is that many (total perhaps, not percentage) Muslims also seem to "take a verse out of context to justify their needs." That's why we have so many suicide bombings. Given that the majority of them are Muslim-on-Muslim (Sunni/Shia usually) attacks and given that "killing a muslim is kufr" it is clear that many Moslems take a very narrow view of "innocence" who a "true Moslem" is etc.
The second problem is that the Koran has very little context at all. eg. Sura 2, verses 216-218 "Jihad is ordained for you…Allah is oft-forgiving, Most merciful".
(Al-Hilali/Khan translation Note: ordained = compulsory religious requirement.)
Verse 219 concerns alcohol, verse 215 concerns charitable giving.
This in summary these verses say (216) that War is ordained for Muslims, (217)that when M was asked about fighting in the holy months he said that you shouldn't fight in the Holy months, but that you can if someone is: a) preventing people from following islam; b). disbelieving in Allah; c) preventing access for Hajj. (218) Those who have "striven hard" for Allah can hope Allah is merciful to them.
Nowhere here does it say, "by the way, you can only fight in self-defence".
So any other "context" for this verse is extra-Koranic.
Furthermore, given that verse 217, like 215 and 219 start with "They ask you…", it is logical that v216 is a 'stand-alone' verse.
It would take pages of comment to discuss each of the 100+ "verses of violence" – they are available elsewhere for people to read and online Korans can be checked to ensure that they are not taken "out of context".
To be frank with you, I regard a fair number of those verses as unclear – but there are plenty of others that are not unclear at all.
Muslim apologists always say that M.s wars were defensive. Well, on the basis of "I thought he was going to hit me, so I hit him first", perhaps they were.
that must be how you explain M.s attack on the Khaibar Jews, the Medinan Jews, the failed attack on Muta, The attack on Tabuk,etc.
After all, in the case of Khaibar, I have no doubt that M and his army, after marching all the way (~100 miles) to Khaibar, felt dreadfully threatened when they saw the 'fearsome weaponry' (spades and buckets) wielded by the 'ferocious' Khaibans on their way to work in their fields! No wonder he felt he had to attack them.
As a footnote – if these poor farmers weren't "innocent civilians" then just who, in M's eyes – and thus the eyes of Muslims – is?
Good argument claude,
***Muslims are in a real psychological imprisonnement. This leads to ruin all capacity to reason clearly and objectively. This leads to insanity. And insanity leads to violence, misery and chaos***
Debating with psychological imprisonnement person, we have to ask one simple question that doesn’t make sense at one time,
LS please provide me with verses form NT and Hindu script that tell their people to kill enemy when they get attacked? Remember there wouldn’t be Christianity if there is no NT, please LS show me which verse that Jesus tell us to kill people if we get attacked?
What a titanic debate, I think Claude said many good things but the answer of LondonSpirit is not easy to refute either. Many good sides of Muhammad were told and OK, maybe the man was a complex mixture of good and bad, his religion doubtless is. As it is indeed so undeniably successful.
I agree with Claude saying that: Yes, there is no verse about killing innocent non-muslims but we think that when in power Muslims can manipulate the status of persons, whether they are innocent or quilty, they can do that even on the spot, so to speak. As the quran is not about verdicts of judges or juries. This has been discussed by Ali Sina before.
I also agreed with Claude when he said that: Yes, killing the unbelievers was only in relation to the hypocrites. But, again, is this going to be a well-thought out, fairly controlled verdict, or may the persons in power decide who is honest and who is hypocrite, hence to be killed? These versions are just too abuse-risky.
And when he said:
"fight them wherever you find them is in regards to when the pagan arabs came all out to try and kill them.” –Why an eternal book become suddenly historic book ? What about the Quran, eternal message of God to humanity ?"
I was with him again, because this is what strikes me too; this Quran (like the Bible) is about historic events, how can it then be eternal? Especially when some Muslims do interpret it as eternal, FFI explains this, and then Muslims stress its context in time. So in this part the Quran does not give ETERNAL wisdom, in this part it is irrelevant for the present. Or … oh, ANY political party with such confusing, abuse-risky texts would have rewritten its manifest a long time ago!
It is relevant to the mission of FFI that Ali Sina, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, many other Islam-critics, politicians believes that Islam wants to dominate and already dominates too much. They consider humans equivalent in worth everywhere but the political philosophy-culture of Enlightenment and Democracy as the best culture. But only just so, I myself am for # 80 % culture-relativist.
This is in part because it guarantees the most freedom, it gives the best opportunity for: people to be the best person they can become, progress of all kind, prosperity and happiness. And not "Freeze by Divine Law" (learned that from Moooo). It also has brakes on absolute power, with constitutional state, so no uncontrolled decisions about innocents/ guilties/ honest persons or hypocrites. The government is only there to serve the people who choose it. (Like a great many Iranians would like it).
But Muslims also consider their religion superior, they claim and strive for supremacy. FFI knows and fears this, and its mission in a nutshell, is to enhance democracy at the cost of Islam (but only if Islam wants to prevent or supersede democracy). For that it exposes Islamic teaching and behavior as much as it can and it is doing a great job too.
If Muslims want to defend Islam as just a religion for private use, always only depending on peaceful attraction, democratic rules let them say so. Let them join us and reject theocratic muslims, as LS on occasion has done. Then FFI can rejoice and relax. Otherwise let them openly state their superiority- and supremacy-claims and fight it out with FFI and its allies.
Demsci:
I was with him again, because this is what strikes me too; this Quran (like the Bible) is about historic events, how can it then be eternal? Especially when some Muslims do interpret it as eternal, FFI explains this, and then Muslims stress its context in time. So in this part the Quran does not give ETERNAL wisdom, in this part it is irrelevant for the present. Or … oh, ANY political party with such confusing, abuse-risky texts would have rewritten its manifest a long time ago!
I say:
Then how come Muslims believe Allah wrote the Quran?
Not only do Muslims believe Allah wrote the Quran, they also believe it cannot be changed.
How do we know if the violence in the Quran is historical in context? What we do know is that after Muhammed's death, Caliph Abu Bakr and co expanded the Arab empire beyond Arabia by force.
LS,
you can answer my above question or this one
why there is apostacy war after mad ham mo died in regard to your statetment from previous
***Allah states that the Ummah of Muhammad is the best nation ever,
﴿كُنتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ﴾
Why was such a statement made? Because we follow the one true god without associating any partners***
why you said "WE FOLLOW" when infact people, been force, and so with the rest of islam time line, why islam has to conquer why.., why?, why islam has to fight to make people turn to islam in early islam history? why?, its not because they follow by their own heart didn't they?, LS why?
JONC there you go again. you took interpretation of a specific word, and not the full verse to justify your claim. I ddint put definitions there so that you may extract that definition to suit your purposes.
When you read a book JONC do you read one sentance and than say YES I HAVE READ THE WHOLE BOOK AND FULLY UNDERSTAND THE STORY. I really dont think you do that, so why do you assume that you extracting one word of the chapter allows you to interprete the meaning of the verse.
If you look at all the verses I post in *26 you would see that none of the verses relate to the geometrical shape of the earth. example:
And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance.
Qur’an 15:19
Can you see the second part of the verse where it says set thereon mountains. This indicates that it is talking about the crust of the earth. The very surface we walk on. No do we walk on curved surface or does the surface we walk on appear flat. ANSWER ME
2nd example
He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky.” With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.
Qur’an 20:53
Again the second part of the verse states so that you can build roads. Again its not talking about the geometrical shape is it. You dont build roads on curved surface do you.
Another example
And the earth- We have spread it out, and set thereon mountains standing firm, and produced therein every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs)-
Qur’an 50:7
Again in relation to the very surface we walk on.
But look at the beauty here on this verse
And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out!
Qur’an 51:48
Again no relation to the geometrical feature of the earth. Merely saying that hte earth is spacious.
I CAN GO ON AND ON. The point is none of these verses describe the geometrical shape of the earth rather describe that the earth is space and level for us to build roads and so on. If however you read the bible there are clear verses in relation to the geometrical shape of the earth. i.e
"take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13)
Other evidence that the Bible teaches that the earth is flat is found in the following passages. The first is in Matthew:
"[T]he devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"
(Matthew 4:1-12)
Certainly, if the earth were flat, standing atop "an exceedingly high mountain" would allow Jesus to see the whole earth, but there is no mountain tall enough to allow him to see the other side of a spherical earth. At most, one hemisphere would be seen, but not the other.
Or a Tall-Enough Tree
The other passage is in Daniel:
The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. (Daniel 4:10-11)
The "whole" earth? No matter how tall the tree was, even if it was only a dream, it would not have been visible from the other side of the earth.
Hopeful believers in the scientific wisdom found in the Bible ignore the verse above and point to a verse in Isaiah which they think shows that the Bible writers knew the earth was a sphere. They believe that the word "circle" could actually mean "sphere," since both are round, but they ignore Isaiah's use of a different word in another verse where he speaks of a "ball." Here are the two verses:
To whom then will ye liken God? ….It is he that sitteth upon the circle (chuwg) of the earth (Isaiah 40:18-23
He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a BALL (duwr) into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. (Isaiah 22:18)
The Hebrew word used in scripture for "circle" in the verse above is chuwg. If the Bible writer had meant for us to believe that "circle of the earth" meant that the earth was round, the writer would have used the Hebrew word for "ball," which is duwr. The fact that Isaiah didn't use duwr shows that he wasn't trying to tell us the earth was like a ball.
The Earth has pillars?!
"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"
"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:4)"
Can you see how clearly it indicates the shape of the earth from the bible. now you find a clear verse like this from the quran, talking in relation to the geometrical shape of the earth.
Furthermore, there exists a simple interpretation of "circle of the earth" which does not imply a spherical earth. On a hill overlooking a wide expanse free of tall trees and other hills the horizon appears as a perfect circle, 360 degrees of blue sky. If Isaiah meant to tell us the earth was a globe, he would have used another word. A circle is not a ball, nor is a ball a circle. Everyone knew what a "circle" was in those times; it meant the same then as it means today.
Vladimir Lenin seems to have learnt it from the Muslims when he said that if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes a truth.
Zakir Naik has perfected this art of turning outrageous lies into Islamically endorsed truths and turned it into a professional career.
Marie,
ofcourse there is no such things as women right, i just try to slow him down from blabbering, try to put reality question to muslim and they will pause for a bit,
LS, have you informed the mullah from misinterpreting the quran in result women being stoned to death in ISLAMIC country?
i praise you for defending the right of women to live
There is no human rights in Islam. That whole Cairo Declaration of Human Rights is a sham.
LS,
You don’t understand my post no.143. Really ? You don’t want to. This too clear, that’s why you can’t see.
Yes, in the Genesis there are killings of man. women, children and heards. Ex. Josue, 6, 20, 8,24, Chapter 10 and 11 complete. This is awfull. God can’t order to kill people, so this Jehovah was not God but the an imagined God for political designs, for territorial conquests. With time this image og God evolved till it became, in Christianism, the God-Father, Son and Spirit, three faces of the same God.
Muhammad imitated Abraham, not Jesus, Muhammad is Abraham, the arab Abraham. His Allaf is the same Jehovah, jealous, despotic, and violent. Muhammad made the image of God regressed two thousands year backward. Shame on him !
PLEASE, NOTE THIS : These events in the Genesis are not normative. They are simple descriptions of war events. Period…. There is no teachings here. There is no lessons to hold back from this. They are past, that’s all.
It’s not like the Quran which is eternal teachings of God to humanity. Muhammad did this or that, said this or that and all the life of the Muslims are ruled. All which is in the Quran is teachings, all events are teachings. The way Muhammad waged war is teachings, the way he partaked plunder, the way he behaved with his wives,or slaves or prisonner of war, the way he wiped himself, ALL.
Muhammad’s reasons to wage war, are eternal teachings. Q: 8, 67-71 : “ It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisonners of war until he has thoroughly subdued the land. You look for the temporal goods of this world : but Allah looks for the hereafter…”
Here, Allah lectures the Great Prophet, you holy prophet Muhammad. He tells him that he so greedy of plunder,women, honey and honeys, perfumes, and of the here below that he is forgiving the Hereafter. LS ? LS ? do you still listen ? Where is your mind ? See nothing? Read nothing ? Understand nothing ? Are you in the crescent of the moon ?
“Until he has thorougly subdued the land.” What is the eternal teaching of this verses, do Muslims find here, LS, Hummm..?
All what is in the Quran is a teaching, if not, the Quran would be a simple history book. Don’t forget this, LS, Quran is the ultimate message to humanity, from Allah. Don’t take this lightely. Bring your help.
I would like to pay a tribute to all Buddhists, all Hindus, all Taoists (if there are still) for the great spiritual and intellectual delights, great lessons of life, of psychology and philosophy I found, meditating their philosophers and saints. In the Quran I found NOTHING. Just a stupid and despotic and hideous and destructive mask of God. I found an evil man Muhammad. If Muslims had right to ask questions and inquire, Q : 92, 101, their own religion and other’s religion, may be they could free themselves for the yoke of Muhammad and his clearly pernicious Quran.
I would like to tank you, LS for your endurance. And try to follow my advice: inquire with an open mind, and objectivity, maybe you will free yourself of the chains of Islam you are so attached….to.
LS:
I have been puzzling as to how to explain my point about the words "mahdan" etc to you.
Perhaps I was remiss not to explain the point with sufficient clarity for you.
Since you accused me of just using one definition and neglecting the others, you clearly haven't understood (or else have chosen to mis-understand) my argument.
Let me present an analogy with a visual element in the attempt to get clarity.
Let us consider the word "cyan".
This word describes a colour (not a pigment, please note) that is an mixture of the colours blue and green in (more or less) equal intensities.
Now, some people with certain types of defects in their colour vision may see this colour (cyan) as either (mostly) green or (mostly) blue.
However, that does not detract from the fact that "cyan" is both blue and green.
Thus, to say "cyan is green" is not exactly wrong, but it is incomplete, misleading and it certainly does not accurately convey what "cyan" actually is.
By like token, to say "cyan is blue" is also incomplete and misleading.
Now, arguing from analogy (a process with which I am sure you are familiar), you would, most certainly, be correct that I was wrong to take just one meaning for mahdan.
(In just the same sense that I would be wrong to say cyan meant blue).
But I never did that, or said it and, or at worst I was insufficiently clear in what I was meaning.
What I said was that the words conveyed "flatness" within them, just as cyan conveys 'blueness' (and 'greenness') within it.
By the same token you, or rather the Koran translators, are wrong when they neglect the "flat" aspect of "mahdan" etc and take only the "spread out" meaning.
(Just as it would be wrong to say "cyan" means green and neglect its 'blueness'.)
In other words, just as "cyan" conveys the meanings of both "blue" and "green", so mahdan (etc) conveys the meanings of both "spread out" and "flat".
Those meanings are essentially inseparable, they are both part of the 'freight' of meaning 'carried' by the word.
So my argument was not that those words meant "flat" in any exclusive sense (as you accused me), rather that those words conveyed the meaning of "flat" within them.
In turn, to neglect that aspect of the words' meaning is to introduce error (no matter how much to be desired) into the actual meaning of the ayats.
Isa. 40:22 says the earth is a circle many thousand of years before mo was even born or thought of. The Quran says flat. sura 15:19. This is why the Spanish said the earth waS FLAT BEFORE Columbus set sails for the new world. Because Satan is allah he made sure he said anything different from the Bible. Sura 3:54 says Allah is the greatest liar, deceiver, schemer, and planner to lie, deceive and scheme. Muhammad was the messiah of Satan. America sent a ship to the space last month and the earth still is round.
Muslims will make fools of others as Allah made fools of them. The Islamic light shines upon the Muslims and the fools who favor them. Then the Muslims will kill them as they are told to kill all non-muslims and enslave all blacks as alah created black to be slaves to white folks. Black Muslims should never blame Europeans for American slavery because allah made it so. loooooooooooool Crazy black Muslims who dont or cant read. They need to be slaves or abeeds. Whites need to be mamluks. Whites like Londonspirit as he is a white European to the best of all people the Arabs. ,llol
Claude:
Yes, in the Genesis there are killings of man. women, children and heards. Ex. Josue, 6, 20, 8,24, Chapter 10 and 11 complete. This is awfull. God can’t order to kill people, so this Jehovah was not God but the an imagined God for political designs, for territorial conquests. With time this image og God evolved till it became, in Christianism, the God-Father, Son and Spirit, three faces of the same God.
Muhammad imitated Abraham, not Jesus, Muhammad is Abraham, the arab Abraham. His Allaf is the same Jehovah, jealous, despotic, and violent. Muhammad made the image of God regressed two thousands year backward. Shame on him !
PLEASE, NOTE THIS : These events in the Genesis are not normative. They are simple descriptions of war events. Period…. There is no teachings here. There is no lessons to hold back from this. They are past, that’s all.
I say:
There is a book called Battles of the Bible by Chaim Herzog and Mordechai Gichon. In the book it explains why such battles were an essential key understanding the events of the time, when the struggle for independence survival overshadowed all other aspects of daily life.
Here's something to cast doubt on whether the god of Islam is the same as the Jewish and Christian god: The unity of the Bible. There are 66 books written in a different literary styles perhaps by 40 different authors with diverse backgrounds over 15 hundred years, and yet the Bible amazingly unfolds one continues drama with one central message.This points to the divine mind the authors claimed inspired them. Do you see of that this with the Quran? No. It is incoherent, ambigous, vague, disordered ( all the chapters in the Quran were not put in order by timeline but by length )
Claude:
It’s not like the Quran which is eternal teachings of God to humanity. Muhammad did this or that, said this or that and all the life of the Muslims are ruled. All which is in the Quran is teachings, all events are teachings. The way Muhammad waged war is teachings, the way he partaked plunder, the way he behaved with his wives,or slaves or prisonner of war, the way he wiped himself, ALL.
From understand the Quran was suppose to be written by God. So wouldn't that make the passages about war permanent commands?
I find it so amusing How MARIE gives UN this and UN that and what goes on in the islamic world. But not a single quote from the quran on rights of woman, even though there is a whole chapter dedicated to woman and their rights in surah Nissa.
MARIE why dont you actually take a look at the rights that woman get from the quran and than try and compare it to the rights that are given to a woman in the bible and any other religious script. I dont have to remind you what the bible says in regards to woman because than your going to say like usual that i am diverting the conversation.
MARIE you seemed to have picked up on the woman right sbecause you feel in islam there isnt any but you didnt talk about anything i mentioned in post 142 about the bible and what it says about the earth. You expect me to answer everybodies post but you can fully answer my posts.
JONC in post 147 you seemed to be justifying the verses i wrote in regards to the bible and the shape of the earth. i know this isnt a dialogue on what the bible says but since your refuting lets look at your answers.
JONC: Furthermore, things that are “set thereon” are placed on the carpet that is the Earth (according to your verse). You know, I have all sorts of things “set thereon” my carpets: chairs, a sofa, two tables, a couple of beds etc, etc. And you know what, my carpet is still flat.
Note: None of the things “set thereon” have “roots” that go through to the floorboards, so if we intrepret this verse as you want, then you have just refuted an earlier argument of yours.
ANSWER: JONC did you even think about what your writing. How can you compare human creation to natural creation. DONT TREES HAVE ROOTS. Are you going to say trees dont have roots. You talk about your house. Without foundation that go a few feet below the surface of the earth do you think your house will stay level. That is a really pathetic answer.
I have given you a scientific answer in previous posts which show that mountains have roots which go deeper into the surface of the earth and yet you deny. What does that tell me? it tells me that what ever agrees with the quran whether fact or not you wil deny.
JONC WROTE: Firstly, all roads that I know of are built on a curved surface – the Earth’s crust. Indeed any “straight flat road” (unless laser levelled) will follow the basic curvature of the Earth. Second, most roads are built with a side to side camber, so they are curved surfaces in that sense too.
ANSWER: JONC you know exactly what I mean. The quran isnt giving no scientific explanation here, it is just saying that flat so you can build roads and so on. Why you taking it around the corner and twisting what i am saying. Mate if I was to say to you that i built my house on a flat plain on the planet earth. Am i in anyway contradicting myself in saying that?
JONC: o why do Muslims claim that the Koran says it is round?
ANSWER: You will always get different people who think differently. Like everyone has got an ass likewise everyone has their own opinions. Why do some christians say that jesus is 100% man and 100% god. Some say he is god and some say he is god sent as man to earth but he is god. None of which makes sense but just saying to you every person has their own opnion so if some say that quran says that the earth is round than there will be other who say there is no indication of shape of the earth and there will also be others who will say that the quran speaks of contradiction.
JONC WROTE: Job 3812-13: The LORD is asking Job whether he (Job) is powerful enough to command the morning and the dawn. As such the statement is predicated on Job’s knowledge, rather than GODs.
ANSWER: Mate it doesnt matter whther the lord is asking job whther he is powerful enough. WHY WOULD HE SAY EDGES? I am pretty sure the lord can think of other words to use to challenge job. I as a man can think of better words i am pretty sure the lord can as well. You see this is the interpretation of god but a man.
You further gave me an answer about the dream of daniel. i may decide to ignore this verse. But that just poses another question. This is a religious scripture, why has it got a dream about one man, and than you claim it to be the word of god. Surely if god has given this dream he would have shown a spehrical world and daniel would have said I could see a far as the eye could see or something like that. But he said he can see all the glory of the earth. Again indicates its mans interpretation and not gods words.
JONC WROTE: Pillars of the Earth? Mountains are somewhat like pillars and often the site of sesmic activity. So your problem is?
ANSWER: That is a really stupid answer. The purpose of a pillar is to give a supporting structure to an overhead. If you state a mountain is a pillar it must support something overhead. Any way the verse clearly says
He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble
Indicating that the earth has pillars. It is written in clear english. And yet you still deny. If there was averse like that in the quran every christian would use it to prove islam wrong. Therefore as these people cant find any such verses they take things out of context to justify their claims.
But here i am showing you clearly a verse from the bible not out of context or anything saying the earth has pillars. And your refuting by telling me mountains are like pillars AND YOU TRY AND SAY DUE TO ITS SEISMIC ACTIVITIES.
LETS BE REAL.
londonspirit:
I find it so amusing How MARIE gives UN this and UN that and what goes on in the islamic world. But not a single quote from the quran on rights of woman, even though there is a whole chapter dedicated to woman and their rights in surah Nissa.
MARIE why dont you actually take a look at the rights that woman get from the quran and than try and compare it to the rights that are given to a woman in the bible and any other religious script. I dont have to remind you what the bible says in regards to woman because than your going to say like usual that i am diverting the conversation.
MARIE you seemed to have picked up on the woman right sbecause you feel in islam there isnt any but you didnt talk about anything i mentioned in post 142 about the bible and what it says about the earth. You expect me to answer everybodies post but you can fully answer my posts.
londonspirit does anyone follow the old testament? No. In fact Jesus respected women and had women followers. The first person he revealed his messiahship to was the samaritan in John chapter 4. In John Chapter 8 he forgave the sin of the adulteress and prevented her from being stoned to death.
In regards to the old testament, there are also prominent and important female figures like Sarah, Rahab, Rachel, Esther, Naomi and Ruth, and exc.
Sura 2:228
(Women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them.
Men are higher or better then women.
Sura 2:282
And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women.
The testimony of two women is equal to that of one man. This is found in Islamic countries Saudi Arabia and exc.
Sura 4:3
Marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four.
This is polygamy and it is the second thing that can be found in Islamic countries.
Sura 4:11
To the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half.
Sura4:176
Unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females.
Women are to receive a lesser inheritence then men.
Sura 4:15
As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them.
Sexual immorality and in Islamic countries such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and exc. a woman can be stoned to death for this.
Sura 4:34
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.
That means men are to have control over women and if their wife disobeys they can beat them. This takes place in Islamic countries in the Middle East, Africa, and exc.
24:31
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands. … And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment.
Sura 33:53 "When ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity."
Sura 33:59 "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad)."
Women who cover themselves ( with the Hijab, Burka, and exc. ) are chaste and moral. This takes place in many Islamic countries. What about women who don't cover themselves? Are they chaste or loose women?
Sura 33:32-33
O ye wives of the Prophet! Ye are not like any other women. … Stay in your houses.
That means women are not permitted to leave the house. This takes place in Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia.
LS
***CLAUDE: The real religion is freedom, liberty, openness, love, honesty, good will etc.
ANSWER: Your exactly right about that, That represents exactly islam, woman rights, children rights, laws of the world. Guidance***
simple question ls,
-WHY WOMEN GET STONED TO DEATH IN ISLAMIC LAW, if you say women right respected? and who are you taking people life?
(mate, if you said its misinterpretation of mullah who make this law, have you inform them of they wrong doing yet?)
Also in Christianity there are the women saints and Mary is regarded as theotokos ( God-bearer ). There are also female ministers, nuns, deaconesses, lectors, readers, secretaries, treasurers, teachers, and exc. Women are also allowed to teach seminarians in the Christian colleges. Not only are Christian women are allowed to do these things we can also sit with men during Church services ( in the Mosque's men and women are segregated ). Also the countries where women are given the most freedom are predominantly Christian countries.
Marie,
Thank you for providing much good information about UNDHR, women's rights, worldwide, practices and laws in Islamic countries, statements, Cairo declaration of rights, quoting relevant versus of the Quran. I learned a lot from that.
About women's rights, democratic countries certainly perform better than Islamic ones. I feel it is a weak spot of Islam, or conversely it is a trumpcard on the democratic side, because half of mankind is female.
And I hereby like to say that only dictatorial minded, theocratical Muslims who are actively undermining and fighting, preventing democracy are our enemies, not all Muslims, not Islam per se.
LS,
You, who are an expert reading interlinings and spaces between letters and words, in the Quran, a skill, we, unbelievers don’t have, would you explain us Quran : 67, 3 and 5, Quran : 17, 44, Where are those “seven skies one above the others”. What are they ? What are those invisible pillars sustaining the sky ? Q: 31,10. It is a law of physic expressed allegorically. The sky must be sustained, we all know that, but how ? There is, here, a scientific truth not still discovered, and you have the dood fortune to hand your name to the posterity like Copernic, by revealing a still unknown secret of the nature.
Also, it would be interresting to hear your explanation on Q : 67, 5 : “ And we have,(from of old) adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away Satans….” The words “Satans”, “missiles” “Lamps,” scientifically, mean what ? I know they express scientific realities but I don’t know exactly which ones. I know that they don’t ingenuously mean, shooting stars seen through the eyes of a superstitious unlearned man living in far-Arabia in 600 AC . but a divine scientific truth made suitable for people of lower brains. Also, see Q: 17,85.
Don’t take the trouble to answer this if you are weiried. This is a monologue between me and me in front of you, to illustrate my dilemma.
You may tell us that the scientific truths, expressed in the Quran, will be evident when science will discover them but for now it is conceiled in the Glorious Quran (inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved, Q : 85,21, written in clear arabic Q : 195, in which nothing have been omitted Q : 6,38 , explained in detail Q: 6, 114, a detailled explanation of all thing, Q: 12, 111, Q : 27, 15, in order to make(things) clear, Q: 14,4, Q, 43,2…
Oh , yes, some are clear and others are allegorical Q : 3,7 ! I am of lower brain but, aren’t “clear” and “allegorical”, antithetic ?. So Quran is not so “clear”. What is clear is not allegorical and what is allegorial is not clear. How can you know what is clear and what is allegorical ? Oh ! what is allegorical is clearly allegorical and what is clear is clearly clear. All is clear, in this clear Quran explained in order to “make (things) clear”. Maybe you will tell me that the Quran is a book of wisdom (!!!!???), not…..of science. Agreed ! BUT…but…but…will you tell me. This can go endlessly. All this is child’s-play..
This Quran is a perfect book to read when it rains, for slaken and have fun. It’s also good to prevent alzheimer. Doctors should recommend it. It is full of enigmas like these : Quran clear who no other than Allah can interprete, Q : 3 ,7, Quran had been sent in one day, Q: 2, 185, but not revealed to him all at once Q : 25,32, Q : 97, 1-5, revealed by stages, Q: 17, 106, which brings nothing new, just confirms words of God sent before, Q : 2,41,89, Q : 3, 78, Q : 10,94, Q : 5,68, Q : 3,3, Q : 5,46, but which rectify scriptures nobody can falsify, Q : 10,64, Q : 6,115, but had been falsified by Christian and Jews Q : 2,59,75, 78 in which historic facts are known to everybody but “revealed, and in which, also, revelations already revealed to others, are called “revealed” instead of “stolen”or “copied”. And there are many many more such enigmas. Search for them.Its an exciting pastime. You will have hours and hours of fun. Guaranteed !
LS, I am just kidding.
YES, LS, there are some nice things in the Qutran. I don't contest this.They are principally in the first Suraths like 55,85,86, 88, where Allah swears by the stars, the moon, the fig-tree and the olive-tree. It was when the lonely Muhammad was rambling in pain in the country. BUT I make big reserves saying that there are nice things in a book which is, in every other respect, mischievous. I just abstain, I prefer keep silence.If Muhammad had preserved the rather harmless mysticism of the beginnings, it would have been allright. Unfortunately, this did not had been the case. Eathly matters and power turned his head. It was before he began to believe that he was an other Abraham or an other Moses like someone, who, nowadays, takes himself for Napoleon Bonaparte.
Demsci:
Marie,
Thank you for providing much good information about UNDHR, women’s rights, worldwide, practices and laws in Islamic countries, statements, Cairo declaration of rights, quoting relevant versus of the Quran. I learned a lot from that.
I say:
You're welcome.
137. jonc Says
:
July 1st, 2009 at 11:21 pm
As has been stated before (by myself and others) there is no verse in the Koran that states (in so many words) “the earth is flat”.
Thus, even though the Koran (as acknowledged) does not SAY “The Earth is flat” it does CONVEY that meaning quite clearly.
Paarsurrey says:
If there is no verse in Quran which says the Earth is flat as acknowledged, unequivocally; then it does not convey that meaning with clarity, in my opinion.
Why stretch the meaning for nothing?
Love for all; hatred for none. Humans are but a family.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
Raisin Head, kindly think twice before posting comments, as your comments don't make any sense and take down the over all level of debate on FFI forums. We at FFI strive to have serious and intellectually stimulating debates about Islam. If you cannot do so, kindly abstain from posting on the Forum.
LS,
You said :” I dont know what the hell you’re talking about in post 143. So please explain in detail.”
Listen ! The verse in question is nowhere in the entire Bible. Don’t you know, LS, this verse is related to Cain and Abel ? And don’t you know it comes from the Talmud which is a commentary on the Torah, not a revelation ? In the Talmud, this verse does not include “unless it be for murder or for those spreading mischiefs in the land.” This sentence is anywhere nor in the Bible nor in the Talmud. God NEVER ordained such thing to Jews anywhere. Who said Allah ordained that ? Allah who did not ? Or is it Muhammad the unlearned, teached by Jews, who mingle Torah and Talmud and moreover, FALSIFIED this verse from the Talmud for his own conveniance ? I am near thinking , LS, that there are big whole in your understanding of the Quran.
Go and see Q :24, 3 – 5. The polytheists were not naïve, they knew that “ this is nothing but a lie which he has forged and others have helped him at it.” YES’ LS !
There is a crow scratcing the earth in the Quran, a crow who showed Cain how to bury Abel. There is no such thing in the Torah, anywhere. See Genesis 4, 8-10. This is still in the Talmud, Mishna Sanhedrin. Is Talmud a revealed book, LS ? There is no God’s orders nor revelations in the Talmud, just jewish commentaries and, sometimes, fairy tales like the story of Salomon and the princess of Shaba. This fairy tale is in the Quran as an Allah’s revelation….Very comic, isn’t it ?
All the remaining is clear, just open your Quran and verify !
My conclusion, LS, was : Quran is not a revealed book but a desorderly collection of badly assimilated jewish and christian teachings, regurgitated by illiterated Muhammad as God’s revelations.
I can’t be more explicit.. I hope everybody else understand this. If you don’t understand, it’s because you don’t want or there is a psychological censorship somewhere. If I am wrong , just proove it to me and I’ll side with you.
If Quran was the very God’s words and his ultimate message to humankind, he would’nt have recounted the fairy tales of the Talmud which were already known since long time. Such a Message, would deserve much better than chat, more serious and more important.
To everybody,
There is no revelation when someone “reveal” something which is “known from old”. There is no revelation when facts are historic and known to everyone. Quran does not “reveal” monotheism. Quran confirm only. Confirmation is not a revelation.
What could be called “revelation” in the Quran ? Rules of divorce, partake of plunder, (one fifth for Muhammad,Q : 59, 6-7) etc, etc, archaic social rules (Sharia) and some repetitions of all what have been said before him, like some of these in : Q : 6, 137-153. There are, here, many very good rules mixed with useless and superstitious one. Nothing which worths a new revelation.
The real and most important, essential, primordial “revelation” is : Muhammad is the Prophet of God. HERE is the center around which all gravitates. Here we are ! Here is the big “revelation”. This is the only “real” and NEW “revelation”. Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah. “Obey to God and his Prophet”. “obey to God and his Prophet” nineteen times repeated with little variations in Suraths 58 to 64. like a mantra, to hammer this in the head of his followers until their mind are odnubilated. “God and his Prophet become one. This is the Holy Duality. Read Surath 61 : which is classified no 109 by Tabari, so, one of the last. Muhammad touches the summit of his delirium : Muhammad is the new Moses, he had been foretold by Jesus-Christ, he has been sent by God to give Islam to humankind, THE true religion, placed over all other religion..
Anf finally, “ Oh you who believe ! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Chastisement ? – That you believe in Allah and his Messenger, and that you strive in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons : that is the best for you, if you but knew. He will forgive you your sins and admit you in the Gardens of Eternity….” What a bargain !!!
Allah-Muhammad, here, obviously, speaks only about DEFENSIVE war !!!! Just look at the context….there is none. This is a general prescription. Read, meditate this, juggle wiht it and tell me that this regards only “defensive” war.
This is the last time I bore you with these much too numerous and much too long out topic commentaries. Really, I feel I took advantage of these e-pages and of your patience and I apologise.
Oh, by Allah ! I forgot this : And Muhammad sent messengers to roman Emperor and to Egyptian king, who didn’t know know him, obviously, to tell them to convert to Islam if they wanted security for their kingdom. ( see William Muir, The Life of Muhammad. I don’t remember which pages.) And read also their answers. Oh ! I think I hear someone mutter “defensive war”, hummm? Who is he ?
The Quran contains the text of Muhammad’s declaration of war against Humanity. Muslims invaded North Africa, Persia, Afghanistan, India to wage “defensive” war. Just read the Quran, it’s all “explained in detail”, written in “clear arabic”.
And Muslims invaded Sicily, Judae, Spain, France, where they were stoped by Charles Martel.They committed pyracy in Mediterranean sea, robbing, killing, enslaving and trading european hostages, they raided italian ports, made razzias (“razzia” is an arab word like “ assassin”) near Rome, and, all this, almost FOUR HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE THE CRUSADES ! Do your ear this IGNORANT Muslims ? 400 years BEFORE the Crusades. And Muslims traded, cruelly, africain slaves 700 hundred years BEFORE the Europeans. Muslims, please pull out your head from the desert sand. Look at yourselves as you really are.
The picture is very ugly, yes, but the first step to come back to reality is to face the truth. Look at Muslims countries actually, it is heartbraking to see the marvels the religion placed “ over all other religions” Q : 6,9 is achieving. Oh ! I know ! All that is other’s fault.It is a plot of the ennemies of Islam. Jews., Americans etc.DISGUSTING !
NOW, THIS IS MY LAST POST even if there are thousands and thousands more pages to write on this miserable and coward Islam, coward to see his own wry face in a mirror.
LS'
Re your post 160 ANSWER #1
You clearly: a) didn't read b) didn't understand c) deliberatelty mis-understood my comment.
Be it never so strange to you, I do know that trees have roots and (amazingly), yes, I do know about house foundations.
Let me spell it out for you.
The Koran says that the Earth is "like a carpet spread (out)" with many "things set thereon". Agreed?
I was pointing out that the analogy is very bad because all the things "set thereon" a carpet have no "roots" (or anything else) that penetrates the carpet.
On one hand the Koran talks about mountains having "roots" on the other it says mountains are "set thereon" the "carpet" that is the Earth.
So, do they have roots or not? One Verse says 'yes' the other 'no'.
ANSWER #2
No, when I say I don' t know what you mean – I mean just that!
You said (earlier) "You dont build roads on curved surface do you.”
Well, yes we do. Hills, valleys, twisty mountain passes, etc. as well as the natural curvature of the earth – even on your "flat plain".
But, I take your point – we do speak of "flat plains" don't we. But this is just a 'verbal shorthand' for the reality isn't it?
To put it into context. On the small scale, carpets houses etc, we can talk of 'flat' as being truly level. On the macro-scale "flat plains" etc then they are not flat at all – since they (mostly) follow the curvature of the earth.
ANSWER#3. I take it you mean that the Koran doesn't state the shape of the Earth at all?
Here I agree with you, insofar as we take the word "state" literally at least.
ANSWER#4.
1) Easier for GOD to use Job's understanding of the World (however flawed) than to preface his (God's) 'challenge' to Job with a Geography/astronomy lesson (that Job probably wouldn't have understood anyway).
2) Christians (most anyway) do not claim that the Bible IS "the word of God" in the literal way a Muslim makes that claim for the Koran. Despite my having made this point before, you don't seem to have acknowledged it.
Christians (and Jews) and Muslims simply have different mays of thinking about our various scriptures.
ANSWER#5: Okay, I admit it, it was a bit tongue-in-cheek.
You wrote: "And your refuting by telling me mountains are like pillars AND YOU TRY AND SAY DUE TO ITS SEISMIC ACTIVITIES." [sic]
Pardon me?
Mountains, often formed due to volcanic action or plate tectonics are situated at points of seismic activity. Are you saying that in Earthquakes in, eg, the Himalayas the mountains don't shake as well? Or that Volcanoes don't produce earth-tremors (at least) prior to eruption?
Further: Today, (7/7 – an important date to us Brits) a monument to the 55 people murdered by the Islamic terrorists of the London Tube and Bus bombings was unveiled.
It is (in part) 55 PILLARS of stainless steel, each unique, one for each murder victim.
They support NOTHING
PaarSurrey: So even if (virtually) all the words used to describe the earth have as part of their meaning "flat", this does not convey the meaning of flat "with clarity"?
That's fair enough, but I'll hold you to the same standard of 'proof' in any future writings of yours!
Actually, I think I've just found an Ayat that says "flat":
78:6. "Have We not made the earth as a ' wide expanse' ".
The word translated as "wide expanse" = flat land , flat , plain.
Is that unambiguous enough for all?
Errata in post 174:
ANSWER #1 should read "deliberately mis-understood"
ANSWER #4 should read "simply have different ways of thinking"
(Sorry about typos – they can destroy meaning)
Sahih Al-Bukbari clearly confirms some of these as scientific facts (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421: Narrated Abu Dharr):
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ?And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.?" (36.38)
If Muhammad knew the earth was round, he would have compared it to an orange with ants on it, not a carpet. This is so obvious ! When people spread a carpet on the ground, they may put stones on each ends in order to prevent the wind to lift it. Muhammad gave the best exemple to express his comprehension of the facts.
Just ask yourself which comparison, YOU, you would have chosen; certainly not a carpet but something round.
Just ask a ten years old child to read the verses in question and ask him how is the earth and he will tell you the truth : flat like a carpet.
For the Muslims, this question is a question of deadly importance. Allah obviously knew and know that the earth is round. So, who did not know that ? MUHAMMAD ! And the terrible consequence is….the Quran is not a divine revelation but Muhammad’s work. To avoid facing this obvious conclusion, Muslims persist to testify against the obviousness.
Q. 71:15-20
Have you not regarded how God created seven heavens one upon another, and set the moon therein for a light and the sun for a lamp? And God caused you to grow out of the earth, then He shall return you into it, and bring you forth. And God has laid the earth for you as a carpet, that thereof you may thread ways, ravines. Arberry
The only way for there to be heavens piled on top of each other is if the author of the Quran erroneously assumed that the heavens were actual physical objects much like a metallic dome. This explains why the author of the Quran could talk about cracks in the heavens.
Ibn Kathir, in his comments on S. 2:29, reiterates this very point by likening the creation of the heavens and earth to a building:
These Ayat indicate that Allah started creation by creating earth, then He made heaven into seven heavens. This is how building usually starts, with the lower floors first and then the top floors, as the scholars of Tafsir reiterated, as we will come to know, Allah willing… (Source)
Hence, Allah first created the earth, since it functioned much like the ground floor of a house, and then piled the heavens on top of each other in a similar manner to the way a bulider constructs several floors on top of one another!
@JAH
your lies carry no meaning here. what is worse is that you are lying to yourself.
have a look this youtube video
[youtube]_gGATRShcdU[/youtube]
youtube.com/watch?v=_gGATRShcdU
You will revert back to what? oh Saleem..ur so funny..u made my day…LOL..
Firstly, even if the Koran did indeed say that the World was "round" this does not mean that 6th Century Arabs did not think it was flat.
Indeed, many peoples have believed that World to be a flat disc (cf the "DiscWorld" novels).
The world is not "round" it is an (oblate) spheroid or "ball" in common terms.
So, to convince me that Mo meant that the World was a spheroid, I want a Moslem to show me the ayat(s) with the word "ball" (or synonym) or something of spherodal shape equated to the Earth in them.
Jah:
An ostrich egg looks like the Earth? Only, I fear, through the lens of Islam. Whilst I will grant that the degree of oblation is different at the two poles (one is water, the other a landmass after all), nevertheless of the two, a ball or an ostrich egg, the ball is a much better approximation to the shape. Take a look at any picture showing the fully illuminated 'disc' of the Earth from space – it's a ball, NOT an egg.
However, I don't see that either verse quoted says anything about the shape except in the most general of terms.
On the other hand there are many verses in the Koran (quoted above) likening the "spreading" of the earth to a "carpet".
Maybe I've led a sheltered life, but every carpet I've ever seen has been flat. As I understand it, even Arabs spread carpets on their floors, where they lie (guess what?) flat.
So, on the basis of that evidence, the Koran strongly implies that the Earth is flat.
However, you do have a point about the Sun and Moon – again the Koran is too vague to be certain what was meant. LondonSpirit has covered this well and I agree that on this point Ibn Kummana is over-stating his case. The ayat 39.05 (in the Ali translation) can certainly be interpreted to mean that the the Sun and Moon orbit the Earth (or, more realistically following this line of reasoning) the "course" mentioned refers to motion from horizon to horizon.
But – the other two translations refer to 'times' rather than 'courses' which, I do agree, weakens Ibn Kummana's interpretation, but the verses are still too vague to really indicate things one way or the other.
I am intrigued, Jah, by your egg layers/earth structure analogy. Apart from shell=crust, which is which in your opinion?
You said "There is no natural object that resembles exactly like the Earth. However, an ostrich egg resembles more than orange or any other natural object"[sic].
Have you never seen frog-spawn, or toad-spawn, or (better yet) newt eggs? These to have a "crust" (the outer membrane), a "mantle" (the jelly interior) and a "core" (the nucleus).
LondonSpirit:
Firstly, thanks for the detailed textual analysis of the Koranic verses relating to the Earth.
However, I don't share your conclusion. All of the words for which you provide the etymology (except madad) clearly have "flat " as one of their meanings and not one even hints at "round", much less a shape like a ball.
Thus whilst I agree that the Koran does not say "the Earth is flat" in so many words, the context and meanings of the words used to describe it are pretty strong linguistic evidence that this was meant.
Ibn Kummana:
Whilst I agree that it is risible to compare the shape of the Earth to an egg, your exegesis of the verses is dubious to say the least.
These particular verses say nothing about either the shape of the earth of the nature of the motions of the Sun and Moon. Even when the video uses its own perculiar translation of 39.5 (not supported by any other translations I have seen) it still says nothing about the shape of the earth and the references to the motion of Sun and Moon are very vague.
Had you omitted "Note that …move around the Earth.", no-one here would be (in reality) able to disagree with you.
With 79.30, had you linked it to the verses that LondonSpirit obliged us with, you would have been able to make your case. As it stands – you can't.
The only part of your 'exegisis' that stands is the ludicrous idea that this verse supports a "ball-shaped" Earth (if Muslims actually believe this).
Poor work and not what we expect of you.
(Never thought I'd end up defending the Koran, either. But I really dislike such sloppy work – too reminiscent of how Muslims treat the Bible.)
Freedom Fighter, FFI is not a forum for propagating you Nazi ideology. All future comments shall be deleted unless they are relevant to the article.
Moderator
Dear Jonc, I appreciate your comments. Thank you.
I actually meant this article to be a light-hearted one as the subject has been treated many times on FFI. However, I give you credit on this. I need to get deeper into the research part before submitting it for publication. I do, however, sometimes, like to go light on the research part and have a light-fun article to read. However, your point is well-taken brother/sister. Thank you.
Mr freedomfighter67,
You are also a xxxxxxxxxx and if you dont know anything fully into some dont poke your nose. Islam is a filth which has currupted all other religions by making a book called quran.
Hinduism is not only the oldest and the most respected religion, it holds the key to all other religion.
Jesus studied in India in vedic and buddhist monastries and then went to his place to teach few of the good teachings which he learnt. See the link: http://www.tombofjesus.com/2007/home.html http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm
Later for political purpose Constantine I inserted few passages like he is the only way of salvation and creating a monotheism, which muhammed further plagiarised.
Regarding Sati, it was a malpractice which got introduced into hindu society after muslim attacks. Hindu ladies who's husband died while fighting muslims or to save there honour the ladies used to do suicide, it was like better to die than be a concubine of a muslim. Even after the ladies have been captured they used to do suicide, instead of being in the harem. See the word 'jowhar'.
There were many widow queens and other famous personalities of India like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jijabai http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rani_Lakshmibai ( She was a fighter and faught british bravely). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meera (a highly revered saint).
There are many more just see others . 2 women 'mother Teressa' and 'Mira Alfassa' are regarded as mother by all hindus.
Maximum nobel winners and eminent physicists, philosophers have quoted highly from hindu wisdom of Bhagwat Gita, upanishads etc.
IBNKAMMUNA the problem with you is that you find a topic to talk about and you just simply copy and paste everything with a few of your comments. You say your mother tongue is arabic but you cant seem to pick up on a lot of the simple things. i.e the following are two interpretations of verses from the quran.
And the earth- We have spread it out, and set thereon mountains standing firm,
(Yea, the same that) has made for you the earth (like a carpet) spread out, and has made for you roads (and channels) therein
From just looking at the verses you can see its not talking about the shape of the earth. look at the verse it says
And the earth- We have spread it out
has made for you the earth (like a carpet) spread out
It is clearly saying that god has made the earth like a carpet. this may seem contradictory to modern science but read the following
and set thereon mountains standing firm
and has made for you roads (and channels) therein
from the following you can see that he has spread out the earth so that you may build roads and that the mountains can stay firm.
But yet again no description of the geometrical shape of the earth is given.
Looking through the evil islamic prisms can make any thing possible.
The evil islamic prism inverts and distorts every thing in the world and so the moslems have a distorted and inverted view of the whole world and its moral values.
Flat earth of biblical prism too( dont forget) looks round.
Sex with a child aged 6 perfectly sensible and so does thighing an infant.
Killing of innocents an immoral act viewed through evil islamic prism looks a perfectly pious act worthy of reward!
Wife beating is a perfect pious act.Iam certain this copy paste monkey has witnessed his mother being bashed up by his moslem monkey father and thinks its normal.
A lot of intellectual confusion on part of the non-Muslims and emotional trauma to the Muslim psyche can be avoided if both the parties look at the QURAN for what it is.
It is not a book of geography or cosmology. It is a document compiled in the seventh century, in the civilizational backwaters of Arabia, by people whose world view was derived from contemporary mythologies and local folklore. Turning the Quran into a text-book of physical science is a modern day phenomenon mendaciously practiced by foolish Muslims and is bound to look ridiculous.
Secondly, the text of the Quran, whether in English or Arabic is very ambiguous and incoherent. That is why they are so many Tafseers written by scholars dating from the eight century downwards.
However it would be interesting to know how the Muslim scholars have, historically, thought of the earth down the ages in light of their reading of the Quran.
The following Tafsirs all explicitly state that the earth is flat.
Sunni.
Tafsir ibn Kathir
Tafsir al-Qurtubi
Tafsir al-Tabari
Tafsir al-Jalalayn
Tafhim-ul-Quran
Shi'a:
Tafsir al-Mizan
More interestingly consider the most recent pronouncement on the subject.
Sheikh Abdul Aziz Ibn Baz, the Imam of the mosque in Macca and the highest Quranic authority in Saudi Arabia and presumably the highest in the Islamic world, published a book in Arabic entitled
“Jiryan Al-Shams Wa Al-Qammar Wa-Sukoon Al-Arz.”
Which translates as
“Motion of the Sun and Moon, and Stationariness of the Earth.”
In this book His Holiness, the Sheikh Abdul Aziz Ibn Baz, based on his profound and life long study of the Quran, categorically and unequivocally states that ,
“ The earth is FLAT. Whoever claims it is spherical is an atheist and deserve punishment”
This book was published in 1994 and was reviewed by Yousuf M. Ibrahim in The New York Times , February 12. 1995.
Now whom should we believe? All those august and hallowed authorities of the past or this Johnny-come-lately Zakir Naiks ?
Hello LondonSpirit and Mr.JAH JAH!
So good to hear from you bad boys of the Muslim world again!
Or are you good girls?
Either way, you're still keepin it real i see, and that's what counts…
Coooool.
Mr.Allahlala must be really pleased with you crazy kids.
Enjoy all those 'extra' goodies in paradise – You deserve them!
Are you two friends in real life?
If so do you get together on saturday nights for beers and talk Islam?
If not do you hate each other for your differing beliefs about Islam?
Just thought i'd ask.
Do both of you believe that the Quran is perfect and error free like it says it is and that you must believe all of it and not just parts of like it says you must?
Do you both still believe that Mohammerjammer is the perfect man whos example you must copy and whos word you must obey?
Were you both sheep in another life and liked it so much that that you thought you'd try it again?
Enjoy the fantasy world boys. Enjoy the fantasy world.
Have a good trip.
Just don't hurt anybody o.k. It's not worth it.
Thanks for your attention kids.
Free free to commence banging your heads on the floor and kissing the sky with your butts.
Farishta:
It is not a book of geography or cosmology. It is a document compiled in the seventh century, in the civilizational backwaters of Arabia, by people whose world view was derived from contemporary mythologies and local folklore. Turning the Quran into a text-book of physical science is a modern day phenomenon mendaciously practiced by foolish Muslims and is bound to look ridiculous.
I say:
The Quran is like any other religious book. It is a book of faith not a science book and to science that it has science in it is rediculous.
Farishta:
Secondly, the text of the Quran, whether in English or Arabic is very ambiguous and incoherent. That is why they are so many Tafseers written by scholars dating from the eight century downwards.
I say:
If the Quran was supposedly written by God then shouldn't it be more clear?
Saleem:
Free free to commence banging your heads on the floor and kissing the sky with your butts.
I say:
You forgot to mention making sweet and beautiful music while your butt is up in the air.
IBNSAHR i didnt think your question was important enough to answer. But since you request deeply that ishould answer it and you make it sound as if i cant tha surely I will.
As human we make mistakes and assumptions. The people of the ulama are no different. they also make mistakes and assumptions. Yes they are knowledgeable but they are humans. And therefore are prone to make mistakes. The only thing they wont make mistakes on are the direct laws given from allah, such as the equity divided when someone passes away, the punishment prescribed from quran for stealing, the lashing for fornication and so on. But other things such as apostasies they make according to their beliefs and what they think. But in due time as more scholars look at the subject these types of laws change. One prime example. In the olden days scholars used to say that woman are not allowed to have aneducation and must be completely obidient to their husbands. Nowadays it is now the complete opposite. Only a few years back sholars said that smoking is makruh but now these schools are saying that smoking is completely forbidden. Today there is still argument between schools on if woman should cover their whole faces or should they have their faces uncovered.
In due time laws from these schools change but not the ones that are clearly prescribed from the quran. So the aswer to your question i choose option B. why because the ulamas do try ans follow the book as strictly as they can but doesnt mean to say that what ever they say is correct.
And as now this issue of apostasy is a prime subject. I can personally gurantee you that the laws will change to no killing because all these new scholors and doctors of islamic studies are presenting hard evidence implying that there is no worldly punishements for apostates.
Now you may pose the question of the taliban in afganistan, and what kind of laws they follow. Before you ask such a question i would like to say they are in their own little world, these leaders. You see they do it for their own gain. Cause no where does it say in the quran that you have to force the beard upon men. The beard is sunnah. And no where does it say that woman have to wear full hijab. These leaders also say that woman are not allowed to attend school and that they should be fully obidiant to their husbands. These leaders also say that the husband can have four wives without getting permission from their wives. And many more. None of this coincides with the islamic teachings.
Cant you seem to COMPREHEND IBNSAHR these leaders are the worst of people they do things for their own gains.
It says in a hadith on signs of the last days. One such hadith is that the leaders will be the biggest tyrants and the worst of people. You can clearly see that its coming true.
Ibn Kummar:
First I am a brother, brother. Second I thank you for the courtesy of your reply which, I must admit (given that so much here from both sides of the debate degenerates into abuse and insult of persons and the Holy Books), I did not expect.
I am also pleased to see that the moderators have decided to step in and delete abusive posts – please continue to do so – and on both sides.
That way those of us with IQs into treble figures can actually debate topics without having to wade through off-topic abusive irrelevancies.
London spirit:
I find myself agreeing with you! Moslems have often conflated their pre-Islamic culture with their faith, usually to everyones' grief.
Your example re womens' eduction is well taken. Although the Koran explicitly declares men superior, it doesn't say that women have to ignorant as well as inferior.
You are also right in your example about Hejab vs. Burka (since the Hadith are ambiguous, there are conflicting Sharia/fiqh opinions).
BUT…
in many areas all four schools of fiqh agree and since the "door to ijtahid" was closed by the scholars centuries ago, all the dis-agreements are on matters that have to be argued by analogy (e.g alcohol is addictive and 'relaxing' and banned. Smoking [unknown in 7th century Arabia] is also addictive and 'relaxing', therefore it too should be banned).
On points that were settled earlier by Koran, Hadith and Sunna, there is little or no disagreement at all, to which you allude in your answer.
Therefore it is somewhat disingenuous of you to suggest that Islam will evolve with time, especially given that it has had 1400 years to do so – and hasn't.
BTW, LondonSpirit are you aware of the implicit "double-think" in your reply to Ibn Sahr?
As a Moslem you assert the purity and literal truth of the Koran. If you have any belief in Sharia – based on life and sayings of M, whom all Muslims claim to revere as the "perfect man" and whose life and sayings were written down by (religious) leaders starting with Abu Bakr, AIsha, Uthman etc and progressing through Bukhari, Muslim and so on through the interpretations of the greatest (Islamic) legal thinkers.
Yet, you also claim that "these leaders are the worst of people they do things for their own gains."[sic]
To be fair, I suppose I should add the my faith, Christianity, has its own 'fundamentalists' who believe in a literal interpreatation of the Bible too – and I also pity them.
Hello LondonSpirit,
Well, it is obvious that a great host of tough questions and challenges come your way and you cannot possibly answer them all. And you have no obligation to do so either. Yes, you answer A LOT, more than anyone here, and you are doing well, in view of the number of reactions you are very "popular".
But still you do NOT answer A LOT as well. And whether or not you deliberately choose the easy questions and challenges and evade and ignore the tough ones, I can't prove, but I do suspect it, at least as possibility.
Good reply to IbnSahr. I like the bit about the Taliban, where you distanced yourself and say, mainstream Islam, from them. That impresses and pleases me a lot. As you know NATO fights them, and Islamic support for NATO is so welcome.
If what you say is true and the issue of apostasy moves towards not-killing apostates and absolute freedom of religion-choice that would be great. But remember, in Iran and Yemen for that the very LAWS will have to be changed on pain of labeling these governments just as NON-ISLAMIC as the Taliban.
The issue of apostasy of Islam and the reaction to it is indeed very important. Because if worldwide everywhere it is accepted that all grown-up people can freely choose their faith or no faith, and Islam is no longer coerced or disproportionally favored by any state, then there can be a fair competition between all sorts of faiths and forms of atheism. And in that context by all means let Islam evolve, make or keep itself beautiful, attractive so as to compete well under equal conditions. Then let the best faith win!
It would be interesting to see for what law the majority of women would choose and vote for if given a well-informed free choice; Shariah law or Common "democratic" law, because they decidedly get a better deal with the latter.
Daniel Dennett also stipulated that for real freedom of religion it is imperative that all children everywhere learn at school about the tenets of all religions and ways of life, so they are better able to choose their favorite one.
So instead of just being against Islam, the followers of other faiths or no faith can strive for a lot of exciting positive goals, like worldwide freedom of religion + speech, independent careerwomen, broad religion-education etc. And the world doesn't need to become perfect, it is enough that the steps forward always outnumber the setbacks just a little bit.
LS,
So the aswer to your question i choose option B. why because the ulamas do try ans follow the book as strictly as they can but doesnt mean to say that what ever they say is correct.
———————————————————————————————–
B. Issuing fatwa according to quran
I see direct result and the consequence of people get killed because of these fatwa which according to quran, no doubt about it
Im sure these ulamah, issuing this fatwa through their knowledge of quran.
If the direct law from quran says kill one person means kill mankind, but they issuing fatwa to kill ones who convert to another religion.
I see these as contradictive, but when you think they are incorrect on killing people may be you would like to guide them killing is not right, im gonna setteled with your answer, and thank you for your time
Now, about the creation, what gone through, mad ham mo mind when he pretends as allah talking about shooting stars as missile, and mountain to keep earth from sliding.
You know now from science those all just fiction story, but written in quran, how can you buy that crap, that said from allah?
thats why god give you brain and thinking capability more higher than animal, are you still want to believe quran from allah (exact words) ???
Thank you moderators, for distinquishing for diligently watching and removing some comments on good grounds, like ad hominems, threaths, off-topic posts, thus for your alertness and courage.
JONC i would like to reply to your comment in double thinking. its not double thinking mate. today we live in a society whereby everyone for themselves. The ulama are no different to us. They have the same desires as us, they have the same thoughts as us. There is also fighting between each memebers just like the vatican who must fight between themselves. Not because these people want to but its human nature. There is not a single person from the islamic school or the vatican who are perfect, all are imposed with a bit of greed, jealousy, envyness and so on.
So i dont stand correct when i say that hadith says that the leaders will be the worst of the people towards the end of time. Because these people can also be the people of the ulama. Bush is another prime example, he fought a war which had no meaning, Iran leaders are in the same boat, so is the leader of north korea.
If you just open to your eyes you will see that every leader is bad and not one is good.
italian president: invites prostitutes to party on public tax expenses
British goverment: using public money to pay for their expenses
Saudia ArABIA: prohibited to drink alcohol but the sheikhs drink alcohol and do camel betting
and many more.
IBNSAHR i am 100% correct about you. You repeat yourself and when you cant answer you pose anothe question. Whats wrong with you. Did you even read what i wrote about the muslim ulama. Yes they are educated but they can be wrong.
IBNSAHR you still havent rose up to my challenge. Where in the quran does it say to kill innocnet non-muslims. DEMSCI you state that i avoid questions but you fail to point out to the fact that not a single person on this site has met this challenge or even tried.
it doesnt say mountains to keep the earth sliding. mate why dont you actually read the verse:
[15:16] We placed galaxies in the sky, and adorned it for the beholders.
[15:17] And we guarded it against every rejected devil.
[37:6] We have adorned the lowest heaven with adorning planets.
[37:7] We guarded it from every evil devil.
[37:8] They cannot spy on the High Society; they get bombarded from every side.
[37:9] They have been condemned; they have incurred an eternal retribution.
[37:10] If any of them ventures to charge the outer limits, he gets struck with a fierce projectile.
[67:5] We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell.
[72:8] " `We touched the heaven and found it filled with formidable guards and projectiles.
[72:9] " `We used to sit there in order to spy. Anyone who listens is pursued by a powerful projectile
These are the verses you relate to. About jinns and demons. the problem is do you now anything about jinn. If you live in a muslim country you must no the power of black magic. What do you think causes people to get cursed. is it unexpalined science or what.
jinns have immense power and are able to perform acts that we cant even consider. now to hte question show me the verse where it says that shooting star are missle.
[15:19] As for the earth, we constructed it, and placed on it stabilizers (mountains), and we grew on it a perfect balance of everything.
Science tells as that mountains are used to prevent or stop earth quakes. SO wouldnt you say mountains are used to stablize the earth
Why should I answer, im the one whos asking question, and im settled with your replied, doesn’t mean im agree.
You said they issue fatwa according to quran, with consequences people got killed, if you said they wrong or can be wrong may be you would like to inform them, people doing something wrong need to be inform, give me email address of church society, I will tell their wrong doing, wether they listen or not, will you write email to muslim society (Iran and yemmen) to correct their wrong assumption and cc it to us, of course not because you just talking nonsense, we all know that.
As I said many times, quran is absurd, don’t challenge me, challenge those who kill innocent people, base of because they unbeliever (be it INNOCENT or not), as you may know quran is prone to misinterpretation, and can be interpreted to individual gain
You don’t need to bring verses to convince me, mate, earth(life in earth) formed after the planetary and space, in order manner, universe not being create as two and joined together after satan finished create earth, and you believe that?
Ls,
its not my heart locked to hate muslim, for me islam is lie, I frustrated to try to make you see, but at the end is up to you if you want to make yourself look fool.
On the other hand your mind is locked to committed and submitted to stupidity in the name of islam no mather what, not your heart, im sure you still have genuine heart of humanity
Mountains are formed due to continental plates colliding and due to earth quakes and not due to islamic science and mountains do not prevent earth quakes, except in the minds of islamically trained idiots. The only connection between earth quake and mountain is when the plates collide, earth quakes and mountains are formed. May be pedo just got it slightly wrong!
London Spirit, here is a verse among others : Q : 4,77. Our Lord ! Why have you ordered us to fight ? Would you not grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)” ? Those people did not see any danger nor ennemies to fight and they complained on Muhammad that he want to contrain them to figth useless war. Remember also the Bedoins who liked better take care of their heards, their fields and their families instead of fighting Byzantines far away from their home and certainly not a menace for them. Also, remember the Jewish tribes near Syria Muhammad plundered and killed for absolutely no reason except the fact they were Jews. Etc, etc. And all the further imperialist conquests motivated only by colonialism and plunder under pretence of religion.
It is so afflicting to have to prove what is obvious for every one except intelligent but brainwashed muslims.
Jesus-Christ and Buddha did not waged war, why Muhammad ? Wars, wars wars, ennemies, killings, Quran is full of this. Why, London Spirit ? Just because Muhammad wanted to force people to submit to him, to believe him. How many times the Quran says to submit to Allah and his Prophet uttering terrible menaces like Q: 9,63 or promise of plunder ? Does this come from a man of wisdom, a man of God ? Come on, London Spirit ! This attitude of Muhammad to tell people” believe in me or I kill you” is a declaration of war by itself. All those who did not want to believe this mad man were automatically and in spite of them “ennemies” and constrained to war.
LS, think about this, please, it is hard to understand for a Muslim : if Muhammad had been constrained to wage war since twenty years, then, even if he had overcome his “ennemies” at the end, it is him who had been defeated, it is him who lost all his credibility, it is him who sank to the lower level. It is him, by his conduct, who, finally, told us that he was a deciever, a manipulator unworthy of the so called godly mission he arrogated to himself. This is not the way Jesus-Christ behaved. He died but, doing so, he overcame his ennemies. I am rather agnostic but not stupid enough for not seeing the high spirituality and elevation of this. A brianwashed Muslim can’t hardly understand this.
You are wrong when you say that Muhammad was constrained to defend himself. You don’t want to admit this, because if you do, Islam is completely discredited. So you still have to sustain the unsustainable like the roundness of the earth, your affirmation that Hadiths and Sunna are not relevant for understanding and practicing Islam when they are essential.etc. etc.
Yes, LS, period, like it or not. When I opened the Quran, many years ago, I had no opinion. The one I have now, on the Quran, comes from the Quran. I could read it objectively because I was not previously brainwashed. I was brainwashed by christianism but when I could investigate it objectively I could not reject it in bulk like Islam because Jesus preached for love and forgiveness. He did not kill anybody. He gave his life, instead, for mankind. No need to believe it to appraise this story, to understand his beauty and his high spirituality, his eminence. Muhammad just talked about ennemies. wars, division, treaths, and about himself, his big ego, the great Prophet of God in which you have to believe or die and go to hell. He talked a little bit about charity; one or two times about love but for Muslims only. He asked Muslims not to make friends with non-muslims. This is despicable, LS ! What ? Did you said no? Did you say that I still misinterpret what he said ?
Muslims must open their eyes to the sad reality of the religion they are trying in vain to shield, to the prejudice of the good person they may be.. And, please, make a difference between religion and culture. Marocans, Algerians, Saudis, Pakistanis will not lost their culture nor their identity, nor their personnal value if they quit Islam, quite the contrairy. But you can’t understand this for now. You are fighting for your false identity inflicted on you by an unlearned and archaic arab madman who constrains you in full XXI century to obey the rules of his achaic tribe. There is so much to say ! I apologise if I hurt you but I can’t say otherwise.
London Spirit:
I note you have not yet replied to a single one of my points or questions, ah well.
On to other matters:
You wrote: "George Airy stated in 1865 [in a book on Geology]". Since 1865 our understanding of Geology has changed to the point that most of that book is probably now wrong!
You wrote"They also discovered that mountains have roots that help them float and keep fastened to the plates of the earth so it will not shake."
You are right (credit where due) in that mountains often have 'roots' that balance the mass of the mountain.
However, in no modern source I have found has it been said that these roots 'fasten the mountains to the plates' nor yet that the Mountains prevent the Earth shaking.
This lattermost point it quite risible, given that areas of active mountain building are usually the most tectonically active areas of the world. Indeed, several of the mountain forming processes are directly responsible for earthquakes.
I will also grant that once all mountain building has stopped, so will the earthquakes associated with it, but to leap from that to the idea that it is the mountains themselves that "stop the earth shaking" is a leap of faith, rather than science.
In particular, the cessation of motion (and hence earthquakes) in plate collision events is simply an inevitable result of the transfer of kinetic energy (in the moving plates) to (ultimately) heat and sound – ask any Physicist.
You also said "…these sea-deep roots…" and later "…very deep roots … extending down into the athenosphere…"
Which is it? "Sea deep" roots do not even penetrate the crust (from your own figures), whereas 'athenospheric' deep roots would have to be about 200 km deep (again from you own figures). This, mind you, to balance an upthrust of at most 8 km (for everest).
Now some real science on this suggests that the 'roots' of a mountain are ~5.6 x as great as its height, thus at most Everest's 'roots' would be ~45 km deep, less than half the depth you quoted (100-150 km) for continental plates!
In fact, every picture, book or article I have read on this subject suggests that at most the 'mountain roots' are locked within the lithosphere.
As far as I can find out, the 'roots' of mountains are not anything like "pegs" or "teeth". They appear as thickenings of the crust below mountain ranges. This is significant in that it means that Everest won't have a "root" at all, its 'roots' will be part of the 'roots' of the Himalayas, which in turn will be part of the 'roots' of the Tibetan plateau, (ie a general crustal thickening below this area) so they may well extend rather less deep than I calculated above.
So how can you say: "Now KERIMEZZ it clearly says from these texts that mountains are like pegs with roots that go deep into the surface of the earth and are also used to stablize the earth" I do not know.
This statement sounds more a leap of faith than a scientific fact.
You said to Claude:
"… Becuause islam teaches that killing another muslim is like kufr."[sic]
I am pleased you stated this, especially in the context of Pakistan.
On the BBC news recently a Pakistani Imam was heard to state that "Suicide bombing IN PAKISTAN is wrong" (emphasis mine).
I agree, for a Muslim to kill another Muslim is wrong or as LS puts it "kufr" (unbelief).
NOTE: Neither LS nor the Imam said it is wrong to kill non-Muslims. Indeed, the Pakistani Imam was careful to only condemn suicide-bombing in Pakistan itself and LS has carefully skated around the question in a way that implies that it is "kufr" to kill non-Muslims without actually saying so!
As for a "single verse" that states that Muslims MUST kill non-Muslims.
Well, in a sense LS is right. There is no verse that says Muslims "MUST kill unbelievers". Consider these (a few of many!):
8:12 "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them".
9:5 "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush…"
9:29 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
9:123 ""O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
47:4 ""So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"
So, The Koran tells Muslims, when dealing with unbelievers to strike off their heads, slay or enslave them, treat them with hardness, smite their necks until they are beaten and enslave them.
The only escape from this is either that they (unbelievers) become Muslims or "pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued" (ie they must pay a special tax – Jizya – for the privilege of remaining non-muslim and must accept second-class citizenship!)
So, in a strict sense LS is right. There is no verse in the Koran that says Muslims MUST kill unbelievers – they just have to pay Jizya and accept an Islamic state tyrannising them instead!
BUT, there are many (about 109) verses that say Muslims should fight against and kill "unbelievers" or "those who disbelieve" until "all worship is for Allah" (ie until all other religions inc.atheism(!) are destroyed).
Still, I have to give LS marks for a VERY careful choice of words here – he told no lies…
Suicide bombers before 9/11? Oh yeah. Plenty in Israel and Afghanistan I can tell you! (But that doesn't count if you're Muslim does it!), the Lockerbie bombing and I'm sure there are others.
Again LS is being oh-so-careful in what he says. The suicide bomb seems to have become the Moslems 'weapon-of-choice' since 9/11, prior to that it was more straight murder, shootings, hijackings etc. e.g the Luxor massacre in 1997, the Aquilla Lauro 1985, need I go on?
BTW LS why "so called suicide bombers"?
Oh, I get it, should we call them "Noble Mujheddin" or "Islamic Martyrs" perchance?
As for which Muslim Country attacked its own people: Egypt, Pakistan(East/West), Iraq (BIG time), Iran, Sudan; and all the way back to the first wars of Abu Bakr!
Oh LS, really!!
to Mr Claude #108
Nice rebuttal pal and you made my day.
Jesus Christ was a good, moral and humble man. Buddha was similar too. This is the bare reality and both of them are incomparable with Muhammad. Muhammad stained his hand with the blood of innocent human being, behaved lecherously, and devise trickery for assasinating his opponents. This is suffice to disprove the claim of his prophethood. But those who denied his claim were quickly eliminated from the surface of thie Earth through war and deception.
There are so many verses of the Quran that clearly advocate flatness rather than roundness of Earth. The nearest that Islamic apologists offer is the Suraa 79:30, and they mistranslate the word "Dahaha" to be egg-shaped. Egg in Arabic is "Baydhoh".
As for Suraa 39:5 that stated that the night overlap the day and the day overlap the night. This is the obverservable condition in Arabia. However, The Arctic and Antartika has extreme long day of night in winter and long day in summer. It is clearly a different phenomenon than the verse implied. No overlapping of day and night. It's a consistency of long night and long day.
Just my two cents.
Humanity is but one family.
Dear aamir Ali, Thanks for you note brother.
Yes, I agree with you that one cannot find a direct problem with science in verse 39:5. Let us do some more analysis on it brother. Here is the verse:
039.005
YUSUFALI: He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power – He Who forgives again and again?
Does "He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions)" make any sense?What is meant by "heavens"? What is meant by "true proportions"? I can say "He created camels in true proportions" and this will also be a statement that does not make sense, but no one will challenge it either. Every sentence in the above verse is something that anyone can say. What about the last part "He Who forgives again and again"? Isn't this something off the topic completely? Isn't this a clear evidence that someone tampered with the verses of the holy Qur'an?
Now let's look at the next verse:
079.030
YUSUFALI: And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
PICKTHAL: And after that He spread the earth,
SHAKIR: And the earth, He expanded it after that.
Can you in all honesty say that it is not saying that the earth is flat? When you extend something, it is extended straight forward at each end. It does not extend in an egg shape-like object.
Have a good day brother.
Hi friends
Quran is not a book of Physics or Chemistry or any other branch of Science; it has never claimed it as such. Quran is a systematic book and it claims to be a book of guidance for the temporal, moral and spiritual needs of the human beings. Quran has not mentioned that Earth is flat; so the discussion being done here serves no purpose, in my opinion. Please concentrate on the issues for which Quran/Islam/Muhammad has claimed to be guiding; discussion on non-issues only would waste everybody's time and would serve no purpose.
Love for all; hatred for none.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
#112, Hi paarsurrey ,
( Please concentrate on the issues for which Quran/Islam/Muhammad has claimed to be guiding) , You mean , we need to concentrate on the following things -> Kill, Mass Murder,Assassinate , rape, pedophile, suicide Bombing , torture , sex ,
Guys ,please help me with more Synonyms.
[...] http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/06/23/the-quran-… [...]
If it is so evident that the Quran says the earth is round, spins on itself and turn around the sun, the muslims philosophers and learned Muslims should have taken that into consideration in their writings. They should have mentioned that, and more than one time..Can someone give us a quotation ? If it was written in the Quran but concealed, it would be absurd. Why, Allah, the All Knowing did worded this fact so obscurely in the clear Quran, ( Q:6,114) that it raises up discussions without end ? This topic never raised question in Islam before because the fact was clear : the earth was flat. It raises questions today because Islam is confronted to western science and Quran is found at fault and Islam on the defensive. Still, in 1996, a great saudi doctor of Islam said that the earth is flat. How come ? He did not read Quran or what ? PERIOD. Period is always at the end, not at the beginning.
PS .This is evident, Muslims MUST not kill unbelievers. I have been misundertood. GWB, Irak, Afghanistan, millions of dollars to Pakistan is irrelevant to free Muhammad of being the agressor, not the agressed.
Dear Jonc and Claude
I look at the verses you quote and literally i am tired of repeating myself because those verses have been answered in many other forums like me. You cannot take a verse out of context to justify your needs. Why dont you spend time researching on these verses and ou will get an idea on why the muslims went to war. I can say it now that muslims only fought in self defense. So find a verse that i havent seen before and prove to me that the muslims were taught to kill innocent non-muslims
##112. paarsurrey Says:
“Love for all; hatred for none.”
Its like one of the motto on the online quran from alislam.org at top right corner,
But the inside says
-don’t take jews and Christian as friend
-fight them where ever you find them
-kill the enemy of allah
What sort of guidance is that , you may peaceful muslim, but did you know the content of your quran didn’t tell you to make peace with other beliefs.
quran is rubbish book thats been preserved from 7th century, its not guidence book, guidence has to show you how to live in harmony with others, as god create us differently, otherwise he would create us like goats roamming savanah, look at that motto and look inside the content, thats why we call islam is hypocrite
London Spirit,
About no.136 :
1- The Quran is eternal words of God, OK ?
2 – The Jew's Revelation is Torah, OK ?
3 – God says in the Quran : "We ordained for the people of Israel that if
anyone slew..etc. OK? This sentence must surely be in the Torah, OK?
4 – Its about Cain who killed Abel, so it must be in Genesis. Where ? 4 :8-10
5 – Read !| There is no such sentence there. No raven who scratch the eartfh neither. OK ? So what ? What is the conclusion ?
6 – God, the All Knowing did not remember what he said ?
7 – Impossible if he is the All Knowing. You must agree.
8 – We know that this sentence comes from the Talmud, Mishna Sanhedrin, (circa 499 AC) but the Talmud does not say : "unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land" This is an improvement added by the Great Prophet of God.
9 – Is Talmud a revealed book ? NO ! It is a book of commentaries on the Torah.
and what is written there are not God's words nor orders.
10 – SO WHAT ? Well, if Quran uttered two manifest falsities, who is guilty ? The thrue All Knowing God ? No. Drunk angel Gabriel ? No, he does not drink. So who ?
11 – MUHAMMAD himself.
12 – How come ?
13 – All what Muhammad knew about Torah and Jewish religion came from the Jews who were living around him, who teached him. NOT FROM GOD ! God would not have attributed to himself orders he never gave.Right ?
14 – Muhammad mingled Torah and Talmud at least a dozen of time in the Quran. ex : this story of Cain and Abel, all the Salomon's story, Abraham's father and his idols etc etc. Muhammad's Torah is a complete mess. The Babel tower is in Egypt, built by the Pharaon !!!! Q: 28, 38
14 – Who was so ignorant and so badly learned about Torah ? God who revealed it or our poor illiterate Muhammad ?
15- Once, the Jews played Muhammad a nasty trick : They said to him that, when Moses came back from Mont Sinaï and presented them the tables, and since God was holding a mountain obove their head ready to crush them, Jews said "We hear and we desobey." In fact Jews said the contrairy. Muhammad told this to his followers and to his scribe and, now, in the Quran we have this Joke. Later, in the Quran, Muhammad scolded the Jews to have changed words from their right places. See Q : 2, 92-93 and Q : 4, 46
16 – Who the Jews fooled, tell me LS ? God or Muhammad ? If it is Muhammad, Quran is the forgery of ignorant Muhammad and not the words of All Knowing God.
17 – Is this clear enough for your modern brain or are you one of these Muhammad's followers with a lower brain ?
Tell me LS, who are those "who spread mischief in the land" ? Which land? When ? Then only ? Am I one of those ? I insult the Great Prophet of God, no ? Is this a mischief on the land, on the earth, on the round earth ?
London Spirit,
I am out of topic because this discussion on the science in the Quran is so surrealistic. We are losing our time on that. The Quran is full of all the modern science, black holes, genetic, physic quantic, etc. OK, LS, I concede you all that and go in peace. You are relieved, isn't it ? You will sleep better now the Quran is in security. Now, there is no more doubts, Quran is a divine revelation. Only evil minded people contest the Quran.
How come men of sound mind can doubt the Quran when Muhammad HIMSELF told them that Quran comes from God and are God's words without a single letter missing.There is no stronger proof on the round earth.And they doubt.
Still, Quran is written in abab and arab is God's tongue, the most perfect on earth. Not a single dot is missing to express the smalest acuteness and subtility which only Allah is capable. It goes infinitely beyond all human skill. And the great miracle is that we can understand it. We can even clearly understand what is not there because even the interlinings are full of meanings, even the spaces between the letters. That is what great Muslims scholars ( and LS) who do not have lower brains are able. And they explains to us the great marvels of the uncomparable Quran. And people are overcame with joy.
Only us, poor Khafirs, with our illwillingness, our lack of spirit, our deficient mind refuse maliciously to understand all these divine truths like :"apart from Truth (what remains) but error" ?) Is it possible to find a greater proof of the truthfullness of the Quran ? Hey ? NO ! IMPOSSIBLE ! And we still deny. And look at this other divine truth and just wonder the indecible logic and coherence Allah make a show of : " As those who reject faith……Allah set a seal on their heart…in their heart is a desease and Allah has increased their desease…great is the penalty they (incur)"
Oh ! My God ! I feel I recognise myself in this ! I feel now that I keep myself company with an infidel. Should I kill him ? Should I kill myself ? Pardon me, my friends, I am worned out. I run to the nearest Mosque and I ask an Imam how to extricate myself from this hell. Maybe he knows what I should do. I don't know if I'll come back. London Spirit, HELP ME ! Help me please. I promise you, from now on, I'll believe all what you'll tell me. I will never raise no more any objections. I think I begin to understand this sublime truth of the Quran :" apart from the Truth (what remains) but error" and you know what ? O prodigy, I begin to fear Allah, I begin to fear hell. Tears comes to my eyes. I begin to fear ! O prodigy. I am almost a Muslim ! I improve ! I improve spiritually from second to second. Fear brings me closer and closer to God ! No, no, from Allah ! Allahu Akhbar ! Allahu Akhbar ! Where is my saber ?
More seriously. LS, some fine day, maybe, I will talk to you about what is good in the Quran, what is good in Muhammad and why this good is not so good as you believe. I don't deny the existence of any good; there is, but no more than any other tyrans are capable. If you want to judge the quality of a man you must look his entire life. And just think about Jesus killing someone. Hum ? This sounds a little bit strange. Yet, Muhammad killing someone is just fine, it was an "ennemy", a Allah's ennemy. What a good deed. Muhammad and Muslims are Allah's arm. This is not killing, stupid ! Read the Quran. It is written.
Its not easy for a Muslim to understand our repulsion in face of Islam. You know, the spirit of the religion we are teached in, has a great psychic influence which is almost unconscious. The fact Muhammad waged war and approved killings and lapidation and beheadings and cuttings of feets and hands, all his attitudes, his behaviors, is not without HUGE consequences in Muslim’s mind. The extreme consequences of that is the Talibans and the martyrs of Allah. All Muslims don’t go to these extremes but all Muslims WITHOUT EXEPTION are affected psychically by what was Muhammad., what was his personnality. And Muhammad was not the good person Muslims believe.
And another HUGE and TERRIBLE problem is the fact that Muhammad was a “statesman”, if we may say it like that, and a “statesman” who pretended to be a Prophet of God. The huge majority of Muslims can’t understand the terrible consequences of this. Now, Muslims cant make the difference between earth and heaven.All is mingled. This has terrible consequences and we can see them when we hear news and when we coast Muslims and we watch them and speak with them. We understand this, Muslims don’t. Just imagine Muhammad behaving like Jesus if you are Muslims, and just imagine Jesus behaving like Muhammad if you are Christians and you will touch something difficult to express, very deep. You will see where is the deep ditch which exists between us.
Just think about this LS, when you try to shield Muhammad of all his bad deeds. Look into yourself. This is not easy. Don’t invoque Irak, Afghanistan or GWB, here. Don’t escape. Don’t invoque “ennemies” and all the usual common places. Try to go deeper. This is not a question of bad translation of a word or wonders hidden in the Quran or this or these good actions Muhammad performed here and there and all frivolous things like that. You must be able to look at the whole picture not always tiny details. And you must enter and go deeper behind the picture where you can feel the spirituality who is lacking in Muhammad’s person and religion. Monotheism is not necessary spirituality. Spirituality is much much more than that. It is much more than the intoxication of the mind in front of the alleged oneness of Allah and his alleged overwhelming power and our total submission to his absolute will. This is not spirituality. Spirituality is love. I give you again this little quotation for your meditation :
“ I may give away all that I have to feed the poor; I may give myself to be burnt at the stake; if I lack charity, it goes for nothing. Charity is patient, is kind, charity feels no envy; charity is never perverse or proud, never insolent, does not claim its rights, connot be provoked, does not brood over an injury; takes no pleasure in wrong-doing, but rejoices at the victory of truth; sustains, believes, hopes, endures to the last.”
Whoever said that is of little importance. In order to know if something is true or false, if it has a real meaning or not, the unly judge is us. If our heart and brain are honest, healthy, clear, free, open, without yoke, we can see the truth. If our hearts and brains are not free, it is possible to get free.. This is a huge task but it is possible. The first step is to free ourselves from fear and you, Muslims,particularly, you are frightened to death and submitted , and totally enslaved by Islam and, by the forgerer and manipulator of consciences and minds who Muhammad was and still is. Wake up. Free yourselves.
PS : Muslim's charity is charity for Muslims exclusively. This is not charity. An obliged charity is not charity. It is hipocrisy. Real charity is love and does not have frontiers. It does not ask which religion you are.
Religion is not politic, Religion is not a monopoly, religion is not an enterprise of domination,of enslavement. Religion is not fear and submission (Islam).The real religion is freedom, liberty, openness, love, honesty, good will etc.
CLAUDE your sarcasm makes me laugh. Why the hell would i loose sleep just because some people on here dont belive or makes mockery of the quran. I will just follow the words of the quran. Which says to say PEACE to the people who insult.
So CLAUDE PEACE TO YOU. LOL.
I dont know what the hell your talking about in post 143. So please explain in detail.
Moving to post 143 you state:
CLAUDE: If you want to judge the quality of a man you must look his entire life.
ANSWER: Your absolutely right in that perspective we do have to look at the whole life of someone if we want to judge the quality of a man. So why dont you look at the life of muhammed prior to him becoming a prophet. He was known by the best names amongst the arabs. He was known as the most trustworthy, thats why khadija married him. He was known never to speak a lie, thats why the people followed him. He was known to be humble. So what is so bad in that?
CLAUDE: Just think about this LS, when you try to shield Muhammad of all his bad deeds. Look into yourself.
ANSWER: Claude so why dont you state some of the bad deeds he done. Prove to me that the war he started were due to his own desire and intentions. Show me proof whereby he treated people badly or lied about anything, or mistreated the children and elderly. Surely such a bad person or a narcissit like ALI SINA calls him would be full of these bad deeds, and surely if he saw a satan in the cave the quran would be pure evil. You think Muhammed is a narcisst but in the quran there aint even a single chapter on him, more emphasis is given to jesuses family.
CLAUDE WROTE: PS : Muslim’s charity is charity for Muslims exclusively. This is not charity.
ANSWER: Please tell me where you got this peace of information from. This is a very big LIE.
CLAUDE: The real religion is freedom, liberty, openness, love, honesty, good will etc.
ANSWER: Your exactly right about that, That represents exactly islam, woman rights, children rights, laws of the world. Guidance
londonspirit:
ANSWER: Your exactly right about that, That represents exactly islam, woman rights, children rights, laws of the world. Guidance
I say:
hahahahaha. Read these:
From Islamic Republic News Agency.
Secretary of the Human Rights Headquarters of Iran's Judiciary Mohammad-Javad Larijani called on all Islamic states on Thursday to stand against the Western-style human rights.
Addressing a local gathering of judiciary officials, Larijani criticized the West's interpretation from the human rights.
He stated that after the victory of the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran, the country committed to fulfill international undertakings on human rights.
Iran has decided to fulfill those international commitments in accordance to its interest as an Islamic country, stressed the official.
He explained, "Tehran's strategy is to conform international commitments on human rights to the Islamic concepts and then enforce" them nationwide….
From Council of Foreign Relations:
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See Also
Middle East, Religion
Islam: Governing Under Sharia
(aka shariah, shari'a)
Author:
Lauren Vriens
March 23, 2009
* Introduction
* What is Sharia?
* Controversy: Punishment and Equality under Sharia
* Sharia vs. Secularism
* Modern Economies and Sharia
Introduction
Sharia, or Islamic law, influences the legal code in most Muslim countries. A movement to allow sharia to govern personal status law, a set of regulations that pertain to marriage, divorce, inheritance, and custody, is even expanding into the West. "There are so many varying interpretations of what sharia actually means that in some places it can be incorporated into political systems relatively easily," says Steven A. Cook, CFR senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies. Sharia's influence on both personal status law and criminal law is highly controversial, though. Some interpretations are used to justify cruel punishments such as amputation and stoning as well as unequal treatment of women in inheritance, dress, and independence. The debate is growing as to whether sharia can coexist with secularism, democracy, or even modernity.
What is Sharia?
Also meaning "path" in Arabic, sharia guides all aspects of Muslim life including daily routines, familial and religious obligations, and financial dealings. It is derived primarily from the Quran and the Sunna–the sayings, practices, and teachings of the Prophet Mohammed. Precedents and analogy applied by Muslim scholars are used to address new issues. The consensus of the Muslim community also plays a role in defining this theological manual.
Sharia developed several hundred years after the Prophet Mohammed's death in 632 CE as the Islamic empire expanded to the edge of North Africa in the West and to China in the East. Since the Prophet Mohammed was considered the most pious of all believers, his life and ways became a model for all other Muslims and were collected by scholars into what is known as the hadith. As each locality tried to reconcile local customs and Islam, hadith literature grew and developed into distinct schools of Islamic thought: the Sunni schools, Hanbali, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanafi; and the Shiite school, Ja'fari. Named after the scholars that inspired them, they differ in the weight each applies to the sources from which sharia is derived, the Quran, hadith, Islamic scholars, and consensus of the community. The Hanbali school, known for following the most Orthodox form of Islam, is embraced in Saudi Arabia and by the Taliban. The Hanafi school, known for being the most liberal and the most focused on reason and analogy, is dominant among Sunnis in Central Asia, Egypt, Pakistan, India, China, Turkey, the Balkans, and the Caucasus. The Maliki school is dominant in North Africa and the Shafi'i school in Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei Darussalam, and Yemen. Shia Muslims follow the Ja'fari school, most notably in Shia-dominant Iran. The distinctions have more impact on the legal systems in each country, however, than on individual Muslims, as many do not adhere to one school in their personal lives.
Controversy: Punishment and Equality under Sharia
Marriage and divorce are the most significant aspects of sharia, but criminal law is the most controversial. In sharia, there are categories of offenses: those that are prescribed a specific punishment in the Quran, known as hadd punishments, those that fall under a judge's discretion, and those resolved through a tit-for-tat measure (ie., blood money paid to the family of a murder victim). There are five hadd crimes: unlawful sexual intercourse (sex outside of marriage and adultery), false accusation of unlawful sexual intercourse, wine drinking (sometimes extended to include all alcohol drinking), theft, and highway robbery. Punishments for hadd offenses–flogging, stoning, amputation, exile, or execution–get a significant amount of media attention when they occur. These sentences are not often prescribed, however. "In reality, most Muslim countries do not use traditional classical Islamic punishments," says Ali Mazrui of the Institute of Global Cultural Studies in a Voice of America interview. These punishments remain on the books in some countries but lesser penalties are often considered sufficient.
Despite official reluctance to use hadd punishments, vigilante justice still takes place. Honor killings, murders committed in retaliation for bringing dishonor on one's family, are a worldwide problem. While precise statistics are scarce, the UN estimates thousands of women are killed annually in the name of family honor (National Geographic). Other practices that are woven into the sharia debate, such as female genital mutilation, adolescent marriages, polygamy, and gender-biased inheritance rules, elicit as much controversy. There is significant debate over what the Quran sanctions and what practices were pulled from local customs and predate Islam. Those that seek to eliminate or at least modify these controversial practices cite the religious tenet of tajdid. The concept is one of renewal, where Islamic society must be reformed constantly to keep it in its purest form. "With the passage of time and changing circumstances since traditional classical jurisprudence was founded, people's problems have changed and conversely, there must be new thought to address these changes and events," says Dr. Abdul Fatah Idris, head of the comparative jurisprudence department at Al-Azhar University in Cairo. Though many scholars share this line of thought, there are those who consider the purest form of Islam to be the one practiced in the seventh century.
Sharia vs. Secularism
In a 2007 University of Maryland poll (PDF), more than 60 percent of the populations in Egypt, Morocco, Pakistan, and Indonesia responded that democracy was a good way to govern their respective countries, while at the same time, an average of 71 percent agreed with requiring "strict application of [sharia] law in every Islamic country." Whether democracy and Islam can coexist is a topic of heated debate. Some Islamists argue democracy is a purely Western concept imposed on Muslim countries. Others feel Islam necessitates a democratic system and that democracy has a basis in the Quran since "mutual consultation" among the people is commended (42:38 Quran). John L. Esposito and John O. Voll explain the debate in a 2001 article in the journal Humanities.
Noah Feldman, CFR adjunct senior fellow, writes in a 2008 New York Times Magazine article that the full incorporation of Islamic law is viewed as creating "a path to just and legitimate government in much of the Muslim world." It places duplicitous rulers alongside their constituents under the rule of God. "For many Muslims today, living in corrupt autocracies, the call for [sharia] is not a call for sexism, obscurantism or savage punishment but for an Islamic version of what the West considers its most prized principle of political justice: the rule of law," Feldman argues.
On the other hand, some Muslim scholars say that secular government is the best way to observe sharia. "Enforcing a [sharia] through coercive power of the state negates its religious nature, because Muslims would be observing the law of the state and not freely performing their religious obligation as Muslims," says Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im, a professor of law at Emory University and author of a book on the future of sharia. Opinions on the best balance of Islamic law and secular law vary, but sharia has been incorporated into political systems in three general ways:
* Dual Legal System. Many majority Muslim countries have a dual system in which the government is secular but Muslims can choose to bring familial and financial disputes to sharia courts. The exact jurisdiction of these courts varies from country to country, but usually includes marriage, divorce, inheritance, and guardianship. Examples can be seen in Nigeria and Kenya, which have sharia courts that rule on family law for Muslims. A variation exists in Tanzania, where civil courts apply sharia or secular law according to the religious backgrounds of the defendants. Several countries, including Lebanon and Indonesia, have mixed jurisdiction courts based on residual colonial legal systems and supplemented with sharia. Ahmad Nizar Hamzeh of the American University of Beirut says only Qatar has an official dual legal system where Adlia courts, or civil courts, are independent of the sharia system and legislate secular laws. Western countries are also exploring the idea of allowing Muslims to apply Islamic law in familial and financial disputes. In late 2008, Britain officially allowed sharia tribunals (NYT) governing marriage, divorce, and inheritance to make legally binding decisions if both parties agreed. The new system is in line with separate mediation allowed for Anglican and Jewish communities in England. Criminal law remains under the gavel of the existing legal system. "There is no reason why principles of sharia law, or any other religious code, should not be the basis for mediation," Britain's top judge, Lord Nicholas Phillips, said in a July 2008 speech (PDF). Supporters of this initiative, such as the archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, argue that it would help maintain social cohesion (BBC) in European societies increasingly divided by religion. However, some research suggests the process to be discriminatory toward women (BBC). Other analysts suggest the system has led to grey areas. Britain's Muslims come from all over the world, Ishtiaq Ahmed, a spokesperson for the Council for Mosques in England, told the BBC, noting that this makes it hard to discern at times "where the rulings of the sharia finish and long-held cultural practices start."
* Government under God. In those Muslim countries where Islam is the official religion listed in the constitution, sharia is declared to be a source, or the source, of the laws. Examples include Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, and the United Arab Emirates, where the governments derive their legitimacy from Islam. In Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, among others, it is also forbidden to enact legislation that is antithetical to Islam. Saudi Arabia employs one of the strictest interpretations of sharia. Women are not allowed to drive, are under the guardianship of male relatives at all times, and must be completely covered in public. Elsewhere, governments are much more lenient, as in the United Arab Emirates, where alcohol is tolerated. Non-Muslims are not expected to obey sharia and in most countries, they are the jurisdiction of special committees and adjunct courts under the control of the government.
* Completely Secular. Muslim countries where the government is declared to be secular in the constitution include Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Chad, Somalia, and Senegal. Islamist parties run for office occasionally in these countries and sharia often influences local customs. Popular Islamist groups are often viewed as a threat by existing governments. As in Azerbaijan in the 1990s, secularism is sometimes upheld by severe government crackdowns on Islamist groups and political parties. Similar clashes have occurred in Turkey. Under the suspicion that the majority party, the Islamist Justice and Development Party, was trying to establish sharia, Turkey's chief prosecutor petitioned the constitutional court (Economist) in March 2008 to bar the party from politics altogether. One of the politicians indicted, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, told Newsweek, "Turkey has achieved what people said could never be achieved–a balance between Islam, democracy, secularism and modernity." Secular Muslim countries are a minority, however, and the popularity of Islamist political parties are narrowing the gap between religion and state.
Modern Economies and Sharia
Growing at an estimated 15 percent annually, Islamic banking and finance is a worldwide industry that modifies modern business practices to conform to the rules of sharia. Central to this field is riba, the charging or payment of interest, banned under Islamic law. Clever twists on standard financial products like credit cards, savings accounts, mortgages, loans, and even trust funds bypass the interest business model. A 2008 report by the General Council for Islamic Banks and Financial Institutions estimates the Islamic banking industry to stand at $442 billion. Even big name banks such as Citigroup, HSBC, and Deutsche Bank are developing Islamic banking sectors to cater to the demand. The industry is small in comparison to the global market, but may grow as some non-Muslims are turning to sharia-compliant services. Some of the ethically minded are also switching over to sharia-compliant investments. Businesses are required to avoid transactions related to forbidden things, such as weapons, alcohol, tobacco, gambling, pornography and pork, and investors are guaranteed that their money won't end up financing those industries. Governments are also looking to get a piece of the pie: Malaysia is the largest issuer of sharia-compliant bonds and Indonesia launched its own in January 2009.
From the International Humanist and Ethical Union
Islamic Law vs Human Rights
Submitted by admin on 10 March, 2008 – 09:00.
* UN Geneva
* Separation of religion & state
UN Geneva
IHEU has responded to claims that the “Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam” is “not an alternative” to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but “complementary” to it. In a written statement to the UN Human Rights Council, IHEU opposed any resolution that seeks to limit the rights enshrined in the Universal Declaration. We now have the official UN publication of the statement available for download — see below.
On Human Rights Day, 10 December 2007, the Pakistani Ambassador to the UN Human Rights Council claimed that the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam, adopted in 1990 by the 56 member states of the Orgainsation of the Islamic Conference "is not an alternative" to the Universal Declaration but "complementary". Complementary? Yet the Cairo Declaration makes no mention of the Universal Declaration and clearly states that: "All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Shari'ah", and "The Islamic Shari'ah is the only source of reference for the explanation or clarification to any of the articles of this Declaration."
On 24 February, in a strong response to this challenge to the universality of human rights, IHEU submitted the following written statement to the Human Rights Council:
The Cairo Declaration and the Universality of Human Rights
The International Human Rights Instruments
1. On 10 December 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [1] (UDHR). The UDHR was adopted by the vast majority of Member States of the United Nations including all of the Islamic States with the exception of Saudi Arabia.
2. The International Covenants on Civil and Political Rights [2] (ICCPR) and on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights [3] (ICESCR), which came into force in 1976, are binding on all signatory States. These include 46 of the 56 Member States of the Organization of the Islamic Conference [4] (OIC).
The Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam
3. On 5 August 1990, the then 45 member states of the OIC adopted The Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam [5]. In this document all rights are seen as derived from God. The preamble states that "no one as a matter of principle has the right to suspend them in whole or in part or violate or ignore them in as much as they are binding divine commandments".
4. At the 1993 World Conference on Human Rights in Vienna, Iran, supported by several other Islamic States, pressed for the acceptance of the Cairo Declaration as an alternative to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This objective was partly achieved in 1997 when the Cairo Declaration was included by the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights as the last document in Human Rights: A Compilation of International Instruments: Volume II: Regional Instruments, (New York and Geneva, 1997, OHCHR, Geneva).
Complementary or Alternative?
5. On Human Rights Day, 10 December 2007, the Ambassador of Pakistan, addressing the Human Rights Council on behalf of the OIC, spoke glowingly of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, noting the contribution made to its creation and to the two international covenants by many Muslim countries. He then went on to claim that the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam: "is not an alternative, competing worldview on human rights. It complements the Universal Declaration as it addresses religious and cultural specificity of the Muslim countries".
6. This last statement, however, is difficult to understand. The Cairo Declaration cannot be in any sense considered complementary to the UDHR. It makes no reference to the UDHR, while Articles 24 and 25 of the Cairo Declaration explicitly state that:
"All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Shari'ah", and:
"The Islamic Shari'ah is the only source of reference for the explanation or clarification to any of the articles of this Declaration."
7. Many of the clauses in the Cairo Declaration limit the rights contained therein by reference to the Shari'ah: in particular, Articles 2, 7, 12, 16, 19, 22 and 23.
8. In this regard, we note the statement to the Human Rights Council by Ambassador Gunter Nooke of the Federal Republic of Germany, also speaking on 10 December 2007, in which he sincerely regretted "the tendency within some parts of the international community to roll back the principle of universality in order to make the enjoyment of fundamental rights dependent on factors such as tradition, culture, religion or the level of development".
How the Shari'ah limits Human Rights
9. Under Shari'ah law, Muslim women and non-Muslims are not accorded equal treatment with Muslim men. The Shari'ah, therefore, fails to honour the right to equality guaranteed under the UDHR and the international covenants, and thus denies the full enjoyment of their human rights to those living in States which follow Shari'ah law.
10. By limiting rights to those permitted by the Shari'ah the Cairo Declaration, rather than complementing the UDHR and the international covenants, undermines many of the rights they are supposed to guarantee. (See references [6][7][8] for additional documentation on this issue.)
Limiting Religious Freedom
11. Religious freedom is limited under the Cairo Declaration. Article 10 states:
"Islam is the religion of unspoiled nature. It is prohibited to exercise any form of compulsion on man or to exploit his poverty or ignorance in order to convert him to another religion or to atheism."
Since it is a generally accepted view in the Islamic world that only compulsion or ignorance would lead anyone to abandon Islam, conversion from Islam is thus effectively forbidden.
12. It is notable that under Shari'ah law in many countries apostasy and any actions or statements considered blasphemous are harshly punished, in some States by death.
13. At the 6th session of the Human Rights Council in December 2007, the European Union tabled a resolution on the elimination of discrimination based on religion or belief. On December 14, the Pakistani delegate, again speaking for the OIC, said that differences remained in the wording of this resolution on, inter alia, respect for all religions and beliefs, and respect for national laws and religious norms about the right to change one's religion. "Hence, we dissociate ourselves from operative paragraph 9 (a) because of its phrase 'including the right to change one's religion or belief'". Yet this fundamental human right is clearly guaranteed under Article 18 of the UDHR and Article 18 of the ICCPR.
Limiting Freedom of Expression
14. Under the ICCPR, Article 19, freedom of expression may be subject to restrictions but only such as are provided by law and are necessary:
(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others;
(b) For the protection of national security or of public order, or of public health or morals.
15. The Cairo Declaration goes further however in making this freedom subject to the Shari'ah. Under Article 22 of the Cairo Declaration a person may only express their opinion in a manner "as would not be contrary to the principles of the Shari'ah", and freedom of expression may not be used to "weaken faith".
16. On 18 December 2007, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution "Combating Defamation of Religions" by 108 votes to 51 with 25 abstentions. Similar resolutions had been adopted since 1999 by the Commission for Human Rights and by the new Council. This was the first time however that such a resolution had been passed by the General Assembly. The resolution expresses once again "deep concern about the negative stereotyping of religions and manifestations of intolerance and discrimination in matters of religion or belief". But the only religion mentioned by name is Islam. The resolution emphasizes that whilst everyone has the right to freedom of expression, this should be exercised with responsibility – and may therefore be subject to limitations, inter alia, "for respect for religions and beliefs".
17. Many delegations, however, opposed the resolution. The Portuguese delegate, speaking for the European Union, explained clearly why:
"The European Union does not see the concept of 'defamation of religions' as a valid one in a human rights discourse. From a human rights perspective, members of religious or belief communities should not be viewed as parts of homogenous entities. International human rights law protects primarily individuals in the exercise of their freedom of religion or belief, rather than the religions as such."
18. Notwithstanding these objections, those opposing the resolution found themselves on the losing side of a two-to-one majority in favour.
19. The implications of this resolution for freedom to criticise religious laws and practices are obvious. Armed with UN approval for their actions, States may now legislate against any show of disrespect for religion however they may choose to define "disrespect".
20. The Islamic states see human rights exclusively in Islamic terms, and by sheer weight of numbers this view is becoming dominant within the UN system. The implications for the universality of human rights are ominous.
Conclusions
21. The vast majority of the Member States of the OIC are signatories to the UDHR and the International Covenants, the ICCPR and ICESCR. By adopting the 1990 Cairo Declaration those States are in effect reneging on the obligations they freely entered into in signing the UDHR and the two covenants.
22. The Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam is clearly an attempt to limit the rights enshrined in the UDHR and the International Covenants. It can in no sense be seen as complementary to the Universal Declaration.
23. The statement by the Ambassador of Pakistan on 10 December 2007 can therefore be seen as misrepresenting the implications of the Cairo Declaration.
24. The OIC is attempting to limit religious freedom by promoting the Cairo Declaration and by rejecting wording in the Council resolution on the elimination of discrimination based on religion or belief that would permit individuals to change their religion or belief.
25. The OIC is attempting to limit both freedom of expression and freedom of religion, and to extend human rights to religions, per se, by its repeated promotion of the resolution "Combating Defamation of Religion" in the Commission on Human Rights, the Human Rights Council and the General Assembly.
26. We urge all states to remain vigilant and to actively resist any attempt to give equal status to the Cairo Declaration, and to oppose any resolution that seeks to limit the rights enshrined in the UDHR and the International Covenants.
I note you have nothing to say at all about how Muslims must take verses "out of context" to justify suicide bombing etc, nor did you have any comment on what I wrote about M's wars. Ah well, lets deal with what you will talk about.
In ANSWER to LS:
#1: You certainly listed all the meanings, I will grant you that. You 'used' them to bolster your argument that the World is 'not flat'.
The point I made is perfectly valid. All but one of those words conveys the meaning or implication of "flat" as well as the others. (Further, not one of the meanings you listed even hints at "round".) So, who is really forcing words to mean what they wish rather than what they mean?
Furthermore, things that are "set thereon" are placed on the carpet that is the Earth (according to your verse). You know, I have all sorts of things "set thereon" my carpets: chairs, a sofa, two tables, a couple of beds etc, etc. And you know what, my carpet is still flat.
Note: None of the things "set thereon" have "roots" that go through to the floorboards, so if we intrepret this verse as you want, then you have just refuted an earlier argument of yours.
I will grant that the "carpet" may be the Earth's crust. But it still says nothing at all about the shape (except insofar that the word for "spread out" conveys flatness not roundness).
You wrote: "No do we walk on curved surface or does the surface we walk on appear flat."[sic]
Not sure I understand what you mean here. But if you stand on any of the great plains, it certainly seems flat. (Okay, we all know today what the horizon really means, but that isn't how it appears, I respectfully suggest.)
#2. You wrote "Again the second part of the verse states so that you can build roads. Again its not talking about the geometrical shape is it. You dont build roads on curved surface do you."
Pardon?
Firstly, all roads that I know of are built on a curved surface – the Earth's crust. Indeed any "straight flat road" (unless laser levelled) will follow the basic curvature of the Earth. Second, most roads are built with a side to side camber, so they are curved surfaces in that sense too.
#3 And your point is? I concur that none of these verses truly states what shape the earth is, so why do Muslims claim that the Koran says it is round? How can this claim be substantiated when (virtually) all the words translated as "spread out" convey the meaning "flat"? To use your phrase: ANSWER ME
In reply to your points about the Bible.
First, very few Christians take the totally literal (Islamic) stance to Biblical interpretation.
Thus, from the outset you are trying to force the Bible to fit your mold, rather than its.
Job 3812-13: The LORD is asking Job whether he (Job) is powerful enough to command the morning and the dawn. As such the statement is predicated on Job's knowledge, rather than GODs.
The verses in Matthew about the temptations of Christ are to be understood alagorically, not literally. Again, the expression is related to Matthew's knowledge, not GOD's.
Daniel: You are saying that what Daniel saw in a dream should be literally true?
That is really weak, on two fronts. Firstly, dreams often bear no relation to reality at all. Second, a dream has to be in terms the dreamer can understand – ie within the compass of his knowledge (not GODs). Note, it says his 'vision' was a DREAM (v 9), not a revelation.
The Isaiah passages. Fine, so Hebrew contains words for "ball" and "circle/round". Great, since Arabic and Hebrew are both semitic languages of similar antiquity, can we presume that Arabic does too?
If so, that begs an obvious question, doesn't it?
However, LS, you are making the same error that Muslims always do when looking at the Bible. You are forcing it into the Islamic mold of 'revelation', when it is inspiration. Isaiah is talking to an audience to point out the Glory of GOD in words and language they will understand, he is not giving a science lesson.
Thus, he is entitled to use poetic forms of words, allegory, simily etc to get his point across.
Furthermore, from v18 to v24 it is Isaiah, rather than GOD, who is speaking.
Pillars of the Earth? Mountains are somewhat like pillars and often the site of sesmic activity. So your problem is?
(BTW Isaiah 9:6 is "For a child has been born to us, a son given to us: authority rests upon his choulders: and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty GOD, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". Funny you should quote that – not a Muslim's favourite verse, I'd have thought!)
Earth's foundations: I assume that you think that all "foundations" are flat, including those in space? Limited thinking, LS.
In your final paragraph you wrote:
"On a hill overlooking a wide expanse free of tall trees and other hills the horizon appears as a perfect circle, 360 degrees of blue sky." (1)
Earlier you wrote:
"does the surface we walk on appear flat." (2)
Now, is it just me, or does (1) seem to answer (2)?
Sorry, I should have prefaced comment147 with:
LondonSpirit:
Well done again claude,
Ls, muslim is good talking about twisting and manipulating the book, but when asking about the proof they silence:
1.Tell me any Christian, buddha, hindu majority country that red crescent go to?
2. what about stoning women for woman rights, not allowed to drive car and so on and on.
And shouldn’t you kill us if we insult you and your satan, when muslim try to defend them self it sounds like a goat BBBLLEEEAAAATTTTTT, meaningless, only other goat will understand
ibnsahr:
2. what about stoning women for woman rights, not allowed to drive car and so on and on.
I say:
There are no women's rights in Islamic countries.
From the Jewish Virtual Library
MYTH
"Women's rights are now protected in the Arab world."
FACT
In most Arab countries, the Shari'a, or Islamic law, defines the rules of traditional social behavior. Under the law, women are accorded a role inferior to that of men, and are therefore discriminated against with regard to personal rights and freedoms.
As Middle East expert Daniel Pipes explains: "In the Islamic view…female sexuality is thought of as being so powerful that it constitutes a real danger to society." Therefore, unrestrained females constitute "the most dangerous challenge facing males trying to carry out God's commands." In combination, females' "desires and their irresistible attractiveness give women a power over men which rivals God's."2
"Left to themselves," Pipes continues, "men might well fall victim to women and abandon God," resulting in civil disorder among believers. In traditional thought, Pipes notes, women pose an internal threat to Islamic society similar to the external one represented by the infidel.
Traditionally, the Arab woman marries at a young age to a man of her father's choice. A husband is entitled to divorce any time, even against his wife's will, by merely declaring verbally that this is his intention.
Although the image of the egalitarian woman is slowly developing within some more secular Arab states, it remains largely confined to urban centers and upper-class circles. Ritual sexual mutilation of females is still common in rural areas of Egypt, Libya, Oman and Yemen.
Furthermore, laws that restrict women's rights remain in force in almost all Arab countries. In Syria, a husband can prevent his wife from leaving the country. In Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Jordan, Morocco, Oman and Yemen, married women must have their husbands' written permission to travel abroad, and they may be prevented from doing so for any reason. In Saudi Arabia, women must obtain written permission from their closest male relative to leave the country or travel on public transportation between different parts of the kingdom.
According to the UN, "utilization of Arab women's capabilities through political and economic participation remains the lowest in the world in quantitative terms….In some countries with elected national assemblies, women are still denied the right to vote or hold office. And one in ever two Arab women can neither read nor write."3
In a Saudi Shari'a court, the testimony of one man equals that of two women. In Kuwait, the male population is allowed to vote, while women are still disenfranchised. Egypt, Morocco, Jordan and Saudi Arabia all have laws stating that a woman's inheritance must be less than that of her male siblings (usually about half the size). Moroccan law excuses the murder or injury of a wife who is caught in the act of committing adultery; yet women are punished for harming their husbands under the same circumstances.
Wife-beating is a relatively common practice in Arab countries, and abused women have little recourse. As the State Department has noted regarding Jordan (and most of the Arab world): "Wife beating is technically grounds for divorce, but the husband may seek to demonstrate that he has authority from the Koran to correct an irreligious or disobedient wife by striking her."4
In Saudi Arabia, restrictions against women are among the most extreme in the Arab world. Saudi women may not marry non-Saudis without government permission (which is rarely given); are forbidden to drive motor vehicles or bicycles; may not use public facilities when men are present; and are forced to sit in the backs of public buses, segregated from men. At Riyadh's King Saud University, professors lecture to rooms of men while women watch via closed-circuit television from distant all-female classrooms.5 "[Islamic] Advice columns" in the Saudi Arabian press recommend strict disciplining of women as part of a proper marriage. Women must cover their entire body and face in public, and those who do not are subject to physical harassment from the Saudi religious police, known as the Mutaaw'in. The Saudis even extend their discriminatory treatment to women abroad. During a visit to the United States by Crown Prince Abdullah, for example, the prince's aides requested that no female air traffic controllers be allowed to control his flight into Texas to meet President Bush. They also requested that no women be allowed on the airport tarmac with the jet.6
The UN, international organizations and local human rights rights nongovernmental organizations constantly pressure the regimes in Arab states to improve the state of human rights in general and women's rights in particular. According to UN data, the proportion of women's representation in Arab parliaments is only 3.4% (as opposed to 11.4% in the rest of the world). In addition, 55% of Arab women are illiterate. The Assistant to UN Vice Secretary General, Angela King, publicly called on Arab states to grant women their rights.7
Arab regimes find different ways to deal with the international pressure to improve women's rights. They often prefer to introduce mild improvements in women's status rather than to enacting radical reforms that might contradict their ideology and antagonize conservative elements in the country.
Here's something from the Center for Inquiry:
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachmen…
For those of you who can't view the pdf here's the html link:
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachmen…
The html link for 151 is not showing up. Sorry
Hi friends
There are brothers and friends in humanity here, who have plainly acknowledged, that there is no unequivocal verse in Quran which declares that earth is flat; this would have naturally ended the discussion on this topic. It seems to me that perhaps they think there are no many good topics left with them. Short of any good topic; they keep on harping on the same string/topic which has no logical utility now.
I think they left Islam and did not find any other truthful religion to join and offer; so they have left Islam but Islam does not leave them. Even if they oppose Islam; yet in a way they still are attached to it.
We can understand their position.
All human beings are but a family; love for all, hatred for none.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
To Paarsurrey,
When someone have read the Quran, he is a little suspicious when a Muslim says that he is a peacefull man. I will believe you if you can explain to me how I must interpret all the verses against infidels, polytheists and Jews. Are those verses historical and contextual or convenient for all times ? Please, Paarsurrey, answer this question simply, clearly and directly . Maybe you have your own personnal interpretation or the Ahmadis are really different.
Hi friend Claude
Thanks for asking a good question.
Before I answer your question; I would like to know as to what faith or religion you had before converting to your present one. What religion/faith you have converted to now? Are you not in peace with your present faith/religion, that you have to oppose Islam?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
Paarsurrey,
I am born catholic but I am rather agnostic. However I admire the irreproachable life of Jesus, the sermon on the mount, the episode of the adulteress etc. I find christian myths, lovable, you know, Incarnation, Redemption etc, Jesus –Christ who makes a bond between God and man, God’s love for men, which is the root of love between men, etc. etc. These myths are an attempt to answer the great Mystery of the existence, of evil, of death, sufferings, and give hope to men. etc. This is a cultural answer. There are other cultural answers I respect, I understand and I love too, like Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, not in their superstitious expressions but in their high psychological, spiritual and philosophical views. Nobody should say that his religion is true and other’s false. Everybody should respect other’s religion. I don’t respect Islam because Islam does not respect other religions, because there is violence and fear in the Quran and fear is against love. Nobody can love someone he fears. Curses and menaces do not speak to our intelligence and our heart, to what is the best in ourselves. Curses, menaces,wars, killing, ennemies,submission, lapidation, beheadings, plunder, slavery, archaïc laws are not from God. Quran can’t be from God. These are the reasons why I reject and condemn Islam.
Hi friend Paarsurrey, I am still waiting !
Hi friend Claude
Islam is a very peaceful religion and respects other religions very much. The first sign of peacefulness and respect of other religions, in my opinion, is respecting religious heroes of other religion. You are a born Catholic, though later disillusioned about Christianity for some reasons and become Agnostic. Please quote any disrespectful verse in Quran about Jesus, Mary and Jesus’ disciples; not a single hate word about them you would find in Quran.
I love Jesus and Mary
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
[...] There is no disrespectful verse in Quran about Jesus, Mary and Jesus’ disciples; not a single hate word about them one can find in Quran By paarsurrey http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/06/23/the-quran-… [...]
The Beneficent (1) Hath made known the Qur'an. (2) He hath created man. (3) He hath taught him utterance. (4) The sun and the moon are made punctual. (5) The stars and the trees adore. (6) And the sky He hath uplifted; and He hath set the measure, (7) That ye exceed not the measure, (8) But observe the measure strictly, nor fall short thereof. (9) And the earth hath He appointed for (His) creatures, (10) Wherein are fruit and sheathed palm-trees, (11) Husked grain and scented herb. (12) Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny? (13) He created man of clay like the potter's, (14) And the jinn did He create of smokeless fire. (15) Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny? (16) Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests! (17) Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny? (18) He hath loosed the two seas. They meet. (19) There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other). (20) Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny?
Sura: Ar-Rahman Chapter:55 Verses:1 to 20
PaarSurrey:
I am disappointed in you!
You say Claude's question is a good one, then evade any answer to it at all.
Instead you ask him to answer other questions.
Claude had the manners and kindness to answer your first one, so now answer his without any further delay, other than the month that has already gone by that is.
To help you remember I will re-state the heart of Claude's question:
"How I must interpret all the verses against infidels, polytheists and Jews. Are those verses historical and contextual or convenient for all times ?"
Answer the question, PaarSurry, no more diversions or prevarications.
Or should we assume that you can't?
thank you LS..