If You Convert You Die
By: Nonie Darwish
From: FrontPageMagazine.com
Very few people in the West know what is going on inside the Muslim world and what it portends for them. The fact is that through the dominant media, such as CNN, Americans are subjected to much of the same misinformation with regard to Islam that I grew up with inside the Muslim world. The result is that Americans are in the dark attempting to formulate their strategy of how to defend themselves against the threat of terror, domestic jihad and Sharia. While Americans get ridiculed for being “Islamophobes,” the Muslim world itself is undergoing a huge and painful awakening.
Nagla Al-Imam
For instance, a prominent Egyptian lawyer and women’s rights activist, Nagla Al Imam, recently announced her conversion to Christianity in Cairo, Egypt. The announcement brought shock waves in and beyond Egypt. This is perhaps the first case ever of its kind, where a Muslim woman, who is also a Sharia expert, has openly challenged Islamic apostasy laws from within the Muslim world.
Ms. Al Imam’s incredible courage was on display in an internet chat room, where she announced that she is not afraid, will stand up for the human rights of apostates and refuses to leave her homeland, Egypt. This was immediately followed by attacks and calls (‘fatwas’) for death of the 36 year-old graduate of Al Azhar Islamic University.
Egyptian media not only reported the threat but also participated in the attacks. Ms. Al Imam was literally entrapped by a TV station ‘Al Mihwar’ with the pretext of inviting her for an interview. Upon arrival to the TV studio she was told the show she was to appear on was cancelled. She was then taken forcibly to a room where she was held against her will for hours inside the studio. She was assaulted, threatened and insulted by several people. She was able to escape, and went to her internet chat room telling the world what happened and said she will demand protection from the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.
Such action is common not only against apostates but anyone who deviates from the dictates of Islam or demands reform. Many Muslim journalists, intellectuals and feminists who consider themselves Muslims but are critical of Sharia are often intimidated, threatened or even killed for the slightest independent views using the apostasy card to keep them quiet.
Dr. Sayed El Qemany
Another recent case in Egypt is that of a brilliant intellectual by the name of Sayed Mahmoud El Qemany. He was recently accused of apostasy even though he denied it on TV and insisted he is still a Muslim. But fatwas of death were immediately issued against him. Mr. El Qemany recently wrote the following:
“I was granted the State Award for Social Sciences, on June 25th 2009. The hard-line radical militant groups considered that the state has adopted this intellectual secular trend
officially, infuriating the mentioned group which called on the State to withdraw the prize with the declaration of my defection from Islam and excommunication which means in our country, I could be slain; any citizen is allowed to kill me and be awarded by God in Paradise. The following parties have participated in the statements of atonement:
1 – Al-Azhar Scholars Front headed by Yahya Ismail Habloush, which issued the first statement of atonement on July 10, 2009.
2 – The Islamic Group (condemned terrorist group) issued a statement of atonement on July 10, 2009.
3 – The Muslim Brotherhood hailed the atonement, and were presented at the parliament by Hamdi Hassan requesting the withdrawal of the award and the declaration of religious-defection and excommunication on July 7, 2009. The Muslim Brotherhood also declared my excommunication on Mohwar Channel on July 11, 2009 and on Al Faraeen Channel on July 13, 2009.
4 – The Salafi (Fundamentalist) Group (condemned terrorist group) dedicated its Internet site named “The Egyptians” for excommunicating me and incitements to kill me, since the date of obtaining the prize until today.
5 – Al Nas channel, which represents the theoretical side of bloody terrorism which declared excommunication and demanded “all citizens who can” to kill me immediately, on July 24 and 25, 2009.
6 – The Hisbah Sheikh Youssef Al Badri in Egypt declared on the channel “ON TV” on July 3, 2009 that I have cursed God and the Prophet Mohammad in my books even though I have challenged him and others to refer to a single text written by me where such claims were made. Due to this proclamation, he has issued an incitement to kill me.
7 – A member of the Al-Azhar scholars, Sheikh Mohammed El Berry, on Mihwar TV Channel on July 11, 2009 announced my atonement as he also said that he did not read any of my writings since he does not read “garbage”. He repeated the same words on the channel “ON TV” on July 22, 2009.
8 – Sheikh Ali Gomaa, the former Chairman of the “State Religious Affairs Advisory Board”, issued a statement declaring my infidelity and calling for slaying me for “insulting the Prophet of Islam, the God of Islam” on July 24, 2009.
9 – The Sheiks of more than 5000 mosques on Friday prayers on July 24, 2009 declared the incitement to kill me, especially in my hometown, which led to the rampage against my family and relatives, and that could possibly evolve to some serious consequences in the coming weeks.
Due to the above, I call upon the conscience of all humanity in the free world to come to me and my children’s rescue by providing moral support and the condemnation and denunciation of the radical thinking with quick solutions to save us from the danger that is luring around us. This is a distress call to all bodies and individuals. A call to the consciences of every free individual in the world.
Signed: Sayed Mahmoud El Qemany- Researcher.”
In spite of the cover up, this is perhaps the first time in the history of Islam that Muslims finally have access to the truth about their own religion, thanks to the Internet and satellite dishes (invented by infidels). There are daily news reports of heart-broken Muslims who say they cannot believe what is written in Muslim scriptures and say that Muslims have been living under the greatest lie in human history. Others simply deny and say that it can’t be so. While Saudi Arabia is spending billions to Islamize the West, many Muslim prisoners of Islamic submission are dying or leaving the religion quietly.
The relatively few number of Muslims who dare to convert to Christianity do it in extreme secrecy. That is because the penalty for leaving Islam is death in all schools of Sharia, both Sunni and Shiite. Those who wrote Sharia centuries ago knew that keeping Muslims in total submission would be very difficult to maintain, and thus they established barbaric laws condemning Muslims to death for exercising their basic human rights to choose their own religion. Sharia never entrusted its enforcement only to the formal legal system. Islam promises heavenly rewards to individual Muslims who take the law into their own hands. Sharia also states that the killers of apostates and adulterers are not murderers and therefore are not to be punished. That is why, for Islam to achieve 100% compliance to Sharia enforcement, Muslim individuals are encouraged to take matters into their own hands.
The end result is a chaotic society where everything happens behind closed doors but at a very heavy price to interpersonal relationships. Fear and distrust of others exists in all Muslim societies. Muslims are not just distrustful of the West, but they are distrustful of one another. In Muslim society, people are often more afraid of their neighbors and family members than of the police. Thus, we see husbands or fathers pressured to apply Sharia by killing an adulterous wife or daughter, or a perfect stranger participate in the killing of an apostate in the public square. Very few get arrested or punished for such crimes across the Muslim world. The ingenious Sharia uses vigilante street justice to bring about Islamic submission. That is why civil unrest and honor crimes go wherever Islam goes. The power of Islam comes from turning Muslim against Muslim — with a reward in heaven.
The above two examples of Islamic tyranny are not unique to Egypt, but exist in all Muslim countries. Islamic tyranny is encapsulated in a law that some Muslims claim to be their religious right in America. Many American citizens who left Islam are living in constant fear from Islamist individuals and groups right here, in the land of the free and home of the brave. I am one of them.
Nonie Darwish is an American of Arab/Muslim origin. A freelance writer and public speaker, she runs the website www.ArabsForIsrael.com. Her new book is Cruel and Usual Punishment: The Terrifying Global Implications of Islamic Law.
Posted by Nonie Darwish
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Hey, people, i have questions for you.
What is the perfect name for a person who always run when challenged but he always boasted like tarzan from the jungle?
What is the perfect name for a person who talked big but never gave any example in reality?
My hats off for this courageous woman.A glimmer of hope.
Kafur:
I agree with you. I'd like to hear LondonSpirit's and Kabirlaw's take on this.
Where I disagree with you is the "logical explanation" bit.
How do you explain away the clear fact that Sharia Law (not, perhaps, the Koran) demands the death-penalty for apostasy? (This is another reason why I oppose the death-penalty on principle.)
I'd like to see the "logical explanation" that inverts the meaning of the law!
Murtad: Amen to that! I just hope that her courage does not cost her her life.
jonc:
Well if her courage does cost her her life, at least she will have escaped from the cluches of
"allah" the Devil.
We so admire this woman and man mentioned. Hopefully they keep getting monitored and we see how this evolves. We hope it is the beginning of more people like it, more inside opposition there. More autonomous feeling, thinking and behaving individuals, less subservient, mindless sheep.
I agree by and large with ProudKafir about his 5 categories of Muslims + Ex-Muslims.
jonc:
I agree with you. I’d like to hear LondonSpirit’s and Kabirlaw’s take on this.
I say:
They would say this has nothing to do with Islam and bring up atrocities committed by Christians or some other religion.
"I agree with you. I’d like to hear LondonSpirit’s and Kabirlaw’s take on this."
They wouldn't show up in an article like this. Don't bother.
Hiya,
Poooo, once again, you stand corrected.
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.
16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).
6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you (of your own choice) a guardian over them.
4:79, 80 (Say to everyone of them,) 'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have (O Prophet) sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."
11:28 (Noah to his people) He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If 1 act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?°
17:53, 54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner (unto those who do not share their beliefs). Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe …. Hence, We have not sent you (Unto men O Prophet) with power to determine their Faith.
21:107 to 109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour (of Judgment) is near or far."
22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites (of prayer) which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord (since that is the main objective of religion). You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, (then say,) `God best knows (the value of) what you do."
88:21, 22; also see 24:54 And so, (O Prophet!) exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
36:16, 17 (Three Messengers to their people)Said (the Messengers), "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'
39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.
42:6, 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ….
64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.
67:25, 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."
60:8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
60:9 Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)
"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)
"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)
"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-Mawardi)
"Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the fragrance of Paradise." (Bukhari)
Peace.
To Marie
You said:
They would say this has nothing to do with Islam and bring up atrocities committed by Christians or some other religion.
I say:
Got ya. FINALLY. Thank you for the confession. It is now as clear as DAYLIGHT. You do accept that Christians have committed atrocities. Someone's true feelings are coming out now, aren't they? You have indeed exposed yourself as a hypocrite and it's as clear as day.
So your remark now begs the question, what's your problem with Muslims and Islam then? Actually, don't bother responding. You're not worth the effort.
Hi to Moooo, Adbul, proudkafir and jonc
My first comment was sarcastic . When i called London spirit as London Ghost , You people should have understood this. I thought these two intellectuals (??) will not come near this article. So called them to tell Al-taqiyya ,(One of them did it)
I am with you friends.
Dear Kabirlaw,The verses which are you mentioned here are the abrogated verses.These verses were made at Mecca when mohammad was weak and he had not enough power to slay down the unbelever.These verses were abrogated by the zihad verses that made by mohammad while he was in Medina. So these verses have no validity you mentioned.
Kabirlaw:
Got ya. FINALLY. Thank you for the confession. It is now as clear as DAYLIGHT. You do accept that Christians have committed atrocities. Someone’s true feelings are coming out now, aren’t they? You have indeed exposed yourself as a hypocrite and it’s as clear as day.
I say:
I've been saying that on this website for more then 2 years. Those who have seen my posts during that time would know that.
Kabirlaw:
So your remark now begs the question, what’s your problem with Muslims and Islam then? Actually, don’t bother responding. You’re not worth the effort.
I say:
The Christian Churches have repented of their sins and the Church has reformed. The violent days of the Church are long gone.
What's my problem with Muslims and Islam? The same reason as everyone else who comes to this website. Muslim ambition of Jihad to take over the world and the bloody violence that Muslims commit with the Quran in their hand while shouting Allahu Akbar.
At least I admit that Christians have committed violence in the past. You on the other hand refuse to admit that Muslims are committing violence in the name of Allah because your bloody religion indoctrinates you into believing that Muslims are "the best of peoples" which means there is a very small chance of Muslims introspecting their religion and their deeds because such teachings make people arrogant.
By the way in regards to your question of my statement about you not caring about the suffering of others? I made that statement because while you are so focused on making Islam look like the religion of peace, your co-religionists are out terrorizing and butchering nonmuslims.
In fact Kabirlaw you showing up on this topic is a good example of how you don't care about the suffering of nonmuslims by your co-religionists because this topic is about nonmuslims being persecuted in Muslim countries and here you are defending Islam as usual.
Kabirlaw, hi,
What Murtad said is well known to FFI-readers by now. Anyway your interpretation and opinion of Islam is apparently just one of many. Your problem, it seems, is that in Egypt, self-confessing Muslims, think and act in a way that enrages and offends many followers of other beliefs. By superiority-thinking, taking supremacy-rights unjustly. How shall we call them if not Muslims? Well, it could be Islamists, Islamofascists, Islam-supremacists. As distinct from ordinary Muslims.
Because of the practices of I-supremacists followers of other beliefs more and more unite against the whole Islam and keep websites like FFI/ Islam Watch/ Jihad Watch etc. running. Issuing new articles every day. About behavior of I-supremacists. Connecting that behavior to the whole body of the by now well-known Islamic holy scriptures.
And the initiators of these websites have said they despaired of ordinary Muslims coming to their aid when pointing out the crimes and ambitions of the I-supremacists and that is why they now try to persuade, peacefully but with good arguments, logic and harsh words, many Muslims to leave Islam.
But Muslims can now consider to turn themselves on these I-supremacists, which would build confidence for Islam among followers of other beliefs. And remove the necessity and desire to wean Muslims away from Islam. Because with large groups of Muslims who are for absolute equal rights and opportunities for Muslims and other belief-followers, men and women, heterosexuals and homosexuals, there would be much less of that necessity and desire.
So indirectly it is these I-supremacists that really ruin things for you normal muslims. The verses you quote you best discuss with your brothers and these I-supremacists, not with FFI. FFI primarily observes, reports, comments, reacts.
To Marie
You said:
In fact Kabirlaw you showing up on this topic is a good example of how you don’t care about the suffering of nonmuslims by your co-religionists because this topic is about nonmuslims being persecuted in Muslim countries and here you are defending Islam as usual.
I say:
So what are you saying?
(1) How does not showing up on this topic to defend my beliefs against vicious gang attacks make me a more caring person?! What ARE you on?
(2) This TOPIC might be about the suffering of non-Muslims, yes, but you missed a small detail Marie, The WHOLE SITE is here to demonise and try to destroy Islamic beliefs, mock the Muslim men, women and children of which YOU, my dear, are a contributor. Whose trying to play victim now? Is there no end to your people's twists/turns and insincerity.
(3) You say "Here you are defending islam as usual" I ask, What the heck is that supposed to mean? Of course I'm here to defend Islam, the same way YOU are here to attack Islam.
Marie, you're wierd, and all I can say is lets leave off the exchanges until I've read your Bible(s) as your pre-condition and we can have a more meaningful debate.
To Murtad and Demsci
I'll check the point you are making and see if ALL of these verses were abrogated.
What about the hadith? care to comment?
Kabrilaw mentions a number of somehow tolerant verses found in the Quran. He failed, thaugh, to mention a minor detail that those early Mecca verses were abrogated (cancelled) by the many later Medina verses of the type “Kill those who believe not in the prophet hood of Mohammad”. How many ways could Quran 9:29 be interpreted but for Christians and Jews to either convert or be humiliated and impoverished by being subjected to ordinantly high Jizya and Khuraj taxes? He is practicing the Taqiyya principle in his religion which permits lying in the service of his cult.
To Ibrahim Mahfouz
I do not know the law and intricacies on abrogation in Islam, so I will not even try to comment on that at this moment. But simply because a seperate verse is available does not mean that an earlier verse is abrogated, the conext and tafsir of the verse ought to be considered (which in itself is a whole separate study- not as simple as 123). Therefore, I am pretty confident that the above verses have NOT been abrogated and still stand.
I say this because the Muslims told Abu Sufyan "There is no compulsion in religion" and this meeting with Abu Sufyan took place right towards the end of Muhammad's (SAW) life. So this clearly shows that the verse that I mentioned is and was not abrogated despite other verses being revealed in Medina.
For argument's sake, lets say that ALL the Quranic verses I quoted have been abrogated so then What about the Hadith I have mentioned? care to comment?
Also, My religion does not permit lying – stop confusing military deception with the morals of an ordinary Muslim. Muslims are more than anything, urged to tell the truth.
"There is no charity more beloved to Allah from speaking the truth."
Bayhaqi
386. 'Abdullah reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "You must be truthful. Truthfulness leads to dutifulness and dutifulness leads to the Garden. A man continues to tell the truth until he is written as a siddiq with Allah. Beware of lying. Lying leads to deviance and deviance leads to the Fire. A man continues to lie until he is written as a liar with Allah."
Bukhari
387. 'Abdullah said, "Lying is not correct, neither in seriousness nor in jest. None of you should promise his child something and then not give it to him."
Bukhari
Comment on the Hadith, they are good texts, I like them. Just as the quranic texts, if only they were not abrogated. There is enough beauty in Islam, Kabirlaw.
About what you said to Marie. Look, Ali Sina and others started anti-Islam-websites, but in a sense they were provoked. By other arrogant, oppressing, ruthless Muslims. Many ex-Muslims, esp. women, many minority-persons just suffered a lot from the hand of Muslims. And much of this suffering was because of now still-existent interpretations of Islamic scriptures, laws, customs, attitudes, behavior, unjust favoritism for Islam, in the Islamic media for example.
And this thread is about apostasy. We all know how Christians can become Muslims easily anywhere and we all know how Muslims becoming Christians are looked upon and treated, how they are often killed or threathened. How there are still 7 countries with deadly laws against apostasy. The very notion that a person is forced to stay a Muslim if born in Islam is repugnant to followers of other beliefs, no other belief has this deadly obligation.
Reasonable Muslims should protest this if possible even more than followers of other beliefs. What does that say about a belief to rely on something so unfair?! But Muslims remain intransigent even if it rains complaints about other Muslims worldwide. They keep protesting their innocence and the quilt of followers of other beliefs and their leaders almost exclusively.
A part of the Muslims keeps power that rightfully belongs to all beliefs, not just theirs. So with what choice are the followers of other beliefs left? Other than trying to wean away from their faith as many muslims as they can? That is why they peacefully fight. With FFI/ Islam Watch/ Jihad Watch. That is why Islam and its prophet get insulted so much and why so many people visit and support these sites.
But of course large-scale support from ordinary Muslims against I-supremacists would alter this situation dramatically. That is the way to go for ordinary Muslims, not protest against FFI, which is useless.
Kabirlaw:
(1) How does not showing up on this topic to defend my beliefs against vicious gang attacks make me a more caring person?! What ARE you on?
Ok I must have misspelled some words in my statement. What I am saying is you don't care about the plight of nonmuslims in Islamic countries. The only thing that is important to you is about making Islam look like the religion of peace.
Kabirlaw:
(2) This TOPIC might be about the suffering of non-Muslims, yes, but you missed a small detail Marie, The WHOLE SITE is here to demonise and try to destroy Islamic beliefs, mock the Muslim men, women and children of which YOU, my dear, are a contributor. Whose trying to play victim now? Is there no end to your people’s twists/turns and insincerity.
I say:
I am standing up for the victims of the Islamists.
You say this whole website is out to demonize Islam? Kabirlaw if Muslims were not blowing themselves and wanting to spread Jihad this website would not be up in the first place.
Kabirlaw:
(3) You say “Here you are defending islam as usual” I ask, What the heck is that supposed to mean? Of course I’m here to defend Islam, the same way YOU are here to attack Islam.
I say:
Yeah you give the same old lip service that previous Muslims have given. In the two years I have been here I have not seen a Muslim renounce terrorism as something that is not a part of Islam, what Osama Bin Ladin did is not a part of Islam and there is no such thing as Jihad ( holy war ) in Islam.
Kabirlaw:
Marie, you’re wierd, and all I can say is lets leave off the exchanges until I’ve read your Bible(s) as your pre-condition and we can have a more meaningful debate.
I say:
Thanks for the compliment. I proud wear it with a badge of honor.
Kabirlaw,
Quran is full of abrogation; this being the reason that teaching/Rules of Quran can not be from God, as God is almighty and would not contradict his own teachings. All the major Islamic schools made it clear that apostates should be punished by death. As I already said, do not try to create your own version of Quran, as that would lead you to hell.
Sometimes you seem to be educated person, but how could you still follow a religion founded by a person who 1. Married an underage girl Aisha (6-9 years old) when he was 53, 2. Force a woman Juwairiya to sleep with him in the same night when her husband was killed by him in a surprise attack, 3. Married his own daughter in law – Zaynab 4. Killed so many innocent people in Jihad (war led by him), 5. Openly advocated discriminatory rules for non Muslims and all women, 5. Mistreated you ancestors by forcing them to pay Jazia taxes (or convert), raping them, forcefully marrying them and as a result you are Muslim now . Do not you think that it is disrespectful to your ancestors who went through such a horrible time during Islamic invasion and had to convert into Islam to protect their own lives and next generations which is you?
How could you still justify Jazia taxes even when you are born and brought up in UK ? How could you pray and thank allah for the meals, house and nice life you have been living in UK, while it is well known that this country has been developed by Non Muslims (Christians)? Do you have any past connection with Islamic countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia and so?
Kebir…kebir… you like a frog living in a well who knows nothing about reality. Deceptive verses when pedo mo was weak is pathetic. And you still until now can't do my challenge. Pathetic liar and coward.
To Kafur, yeah, you are right. Everyone with common sense knows that mouth can't defeat reality.
Hey guys you got Kabirlaw all wrong. What he meant was islam is a Religion of Peace because all earlier peaceful ayas are for muslims.The later Madina violent ayas were only for Mohammed who was allowed to kill,rob and rape, torture, commit genocide, pedophilia ,incest and polygamy Such special priviledges are given to a a chief Prophet. Same way in verse 33.50 Allah allowed Mohammed unlimited wives, sex with captured women,sex with first cousins and any woman who offered herself to him but limited other muslims to have sex only with their four wives and captured women. You are genius Kabirlaw. Your theory will shut up all islamic critics and convince them that Islam is a religion of peace..
Hey guys, you got Kabirlaw all wrong. What he is saying is that the earlier Meccan peaceful ayas are permanent and for the umma but the later violent ayas which ordered killing and robbing of kuffars and raping of their women were temporary and for Mohammed and his buddies use only and were abrogated after him. That is the reason Mohammed and his Jihadis were violent who killed robbed and raped and after them all muslims have been very peaceful and loving..
OK, Kabirlaw,
You say ordinary Muslims should be honest, truthfull, you have the Q&H-verses for it. Let me also try to be truthfull. I have no quarrel with you, LS, other Muslims holding other people than Muslims accountable for many atrocious deeds in history. Christians and Atheists did their share. It seems much atrocious behavior is just universal. And it is true that only since 1920 women have more or less reasonable equal rights in the West. Many of your points ARE valid and make us pause. This sort of thing Marie and many of us also acknowledge.
But FFI & like websites are still primarily a reaction against some Islamic injustice, we maintain. They were not initiated just out of some original hatred, but more for fighting for freedom against a powerful religion. A religion so powerful, it just did not want to have a meaningful dialogue about equal rights for all beliefs in Islamic countries. And about women's rights. Or so it seemed and still seems. Because many Muslims perhaps think their religion is better than all others? And therefore has the right to be so dominant over other beliefs in 57 countries?
Above all, do Muslims consider it fair, that in Europe, America, Canada, Australia any one can convert INTO Islam unopposed, but in Islamic countries NO ONE is allowed out? At least is then often threathened, intimidated? And in 7 Islamic countries there are laws against apostasy, with high punishment. It is undeniable. And you see above how difficult it is to convert out of Islam in Egypt. Facts are that apostates are executed and imprisoned only on apostasy-grounds in Saudi Arabia and Iran. Is it possible to honestly deny that?
Visitors of FFI thought it impossible you would show up here, because of this HORRIBLE discrepancy between converting INTO and OUT OF Islam everywhere, especially in Islamic countries. They thought it would be embarrassing for you, impossible to defend. And it would be unlike you to admit that fellow-Muslims were actually wrong according to you.
But we remember well the debate between LondonSpirit and Ibn Kammuna. In that LS assured us that Killing apostates was not an Islamic belief-tenet. But he based that only on the Quran, while he maintained he only acknowledged those Hadith that confirm the Quran, or do not contradict it. But apparently his version of Islam is different from those of the 4 important Islamic "schools". Who do use Hadiths for their stand on the treatment of apostates.
Would it not be honest and truthfull to admit this difference in Islamic versions and maybe even to take sides against these schools? Because these Islamic "schools" and your possble siding with them give us much motivation to support FFI.
MARIE AND MOOO AND others think that I wouldnt enter this post because I am scared of what the outcome would be. This matter has been thoroughly discussed in two debates between me and IBNKAMMUNA. The end result of the debate was IBNKAMMUNA saying to me that I am lost.
He didnt rebuttal my answers and couldnt tell the difference between a hypocrite and an apostate. And i will repeat to everyone THERE IS NOT A SINGLE VERSE OF THE QURAN WHICH SAYS TO KILL APOSTATES.
i HAVE EVEN GIVEN THE CHALLENGE, THAT IF ANYONE DOES I WILL HAVE THE HONOUR OF DISTRIBUTING FLIERS AROUND LONDON TO SHOW OF ISLAMS PREDUJICE.
i set this challenge about 3 months ago. No one has met to this challenge. So if you want to hear a response than please be my guest and bring a verse from the quran.
These acts that people do a based not on religion but on beliefs, respect and diginity. People commit these crimes especially in third world countires because it dents their name, it dents their family respect and it dents their ideology. Such acts would not be tolerated in these societies. This is not just accountable for apostates, but for gays, prostitutes, gals who marry guys from other religions and vice versa. All these killings happen in hinudism, sikhism and even christianity. So to relate it to islam is proposterous.
You cannot find a single verse of the quran that relates to killing of apostates bit you can find the following verse
Noble Verse 4:137 "Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way."
So here ALLAH IS TALKING ABOUT APOSTATES, BUT HE GIVES NO PUNISHMENT, RATHER SAYS HE WILL NOT FORGIVE THEM. Now tell me do you imaginarily see the verse changed to include some punishment. Further more
"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)"
Again in this verse the quran says that the messgae is to only preach. Not kill those who dont belive. Furthermore
Noble Verse 27:92 "And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'"
Again quran is giving freedom of choice. Belive or dont belive. its that simple
Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."
Again quran is giving freedom of choice to belive in any religion. And is even giving that extra choice of that you may do as you wsh in this world. Further more
Noble Verse 18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"
In this verse the quran is saying that people can belive in different faiths. And that muslims shouldnt prescribe any punishment as allah has prepared the punishment in the next life. And finally the two verses that puts it all into perspective.
Noble Verses 109:1-6 "Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine."
Noble Verse 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."
So lets conclude. The quran says that you may leave the religion, the quran says that you may follow any religion you desire. The quran also says that you may do anything you wish and anything you desire. The quran gives you freedom. The quran doesnt prescibe any punishment in this world for people who are apostates or follows different faiths, unless your reading these verses differently to how I am reading it. The only thing the quran expresses is that you may enjoy what ever you wish in this world but in the hereafter you will be punished.
SO ALL IN ALL NO PUNISHMENT IN THIS LIFE FROM ANYBODY AS QURAN GIVES YOU FREEDOM BUT YOU WILL BE SUBJECTED TO SEVERE TORMENT IN THE NEXT LIFE.
Now Allah is defo the most merciful as he says
"We will show them Our SIGNS in the furthest regions of the universe and in their own souls until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth"
SO ALLAH IS SHOWING YOU SIGNS THAT ISLAM IS THE RELIGION. OUT OF THOUSANDS I WILL GIVE YOU MY FAV, WHICH I BELIEVE IN UNBELIVABLE
We brought the tribe of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his troops pursued them out of tyranny and enmity. Then, when he was on the point of drowning, he [Pharaoh] said: "I believe that there is no god but Him in Whom the tribe of Israel believes. I am one of the Muslims." (Qur'an, 10:90)
"What, now! When previously you rebelled and were one of the corrupters? Today we will preserve your body so you can be a Sign for people who come after you. Surely many people are heedless of Our Signs." (Qur'an, 10:91-92)
The information that Pharaoh's corpse would serve as a sign for later generations may be regarded as an indication that his body would not decay. On display in the Royal Mummies Chamber of the Egyptian Museum in Cairo is a mummified body believed to be that of this tyrant. In all likelihood, Pharaoh's body floated to shore after being drowned, was found and mummified by the Egyptians, and then carried to a previously prepared burial chamber.182
Now look at this pic and see how well a body of 4000 years has been preserved. In 4000 years our bones should be ash and there should be no traces of our body. NOW LOOK AND BELIEVE. ALL MOST BENEFICIAL MOST MERCIFUL IS SHOWING YOU SIGNS
http://www.backtoislam.com/images/ramses_pharaoh_…
NOW WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT APOSTATES:
Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."
Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, …..and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."
2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."
NOW some christians such as marie may say well we dont follow the old testament.But this is what jesus himself says in the new testament:
"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
SO i am able to find a number of verses that say to kill apostates from the bible and you cant find any from the quran. But yet you asociates apostates killing with islam. How pathetic.
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All schools of Sharia? all Islamic books are wrongly interpreted , Ask London spirit and Kabir Law, they will tell you how peaceful Islam and Muslims are, with logical explanation. London Ghost , We need your logical reasoning here.
Kafur, logical explanation or acrobatic explanation? An explanation without reality is useless. We live in real world not books.
Kafur says " they will tell you how peaceful Islam and Muslims are, with logical explanation" – which Islamiic country are you talking about ? Look at the reality , how many muslims are invloved in suicide attacks on non-muslims and muslims ( I suppose this is your logical explanation). Muslim states are reglously cleansed and then whenthere is no minority to subjugate they turn on each other – shia on sunni & vice versa, honor killings , stoning , chopping of hands, piracy, lawlessness ( look at Somalia, Afganistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Iran etc). Anybody with a logical brain must question why this sort behavour takes place in "Islamic" state.
"Such action is common not only against apostates but anyone who deviates from the dictates of Islam or demands reform. Many Muslim journalists, intellectuals and feminists who consider themselves Muslims but are critical of Sharia are often intimidated, threatened or even killed for the slightest independent views using the apostasy card to keep them quiet."
Pay attention to above sentences. It's real and still happening in all muslim majority countries, unlike the big mouths's posts which had no basis in reaity.
The so called human right experts argue that apostasy killings, honour killings, women subjugation and beating is not in Islam and needs to be banned. How funny, these high fashion peole are putting smoke in the eyes of the concerned non-muslims. Every devout muslims know that Islam wants apostate to be killed, women to be slaved and killing the kaffirs and Jihad and terrorism is one and same thing.
We have the followin idiots supporting the isalmic baboons.
1.Human right activists.( funded by moslem monkeys)
2.Secular sick politician( funded again by moslem monkeys)
3.Non moslem low lives in Non islamic countries( due to ignorance)
4.Completely idiotic non moslems for no apparent reason.
We need to get rid of these idiots before tackling islamic menace
Great blog and keep up the good work – I have linked it on my blog – .rss sidebar.
Feel free to link, post up, and quote anything from there if you want and I would certainly appreciate the exposure/promotion. Will certainly do the same for your material from time to time.
Moslems are fo many varieties.
1.The cruel criminals who are either in prison ( long term if you please) or will be involved in Jihad ( kindly note all jihads are nothing but violent) or will be in touch with allah and houries( either blowing themselves up or getting a meet arranged by infidels) These are very coomon species in middle east etc.
2.Moslems who are uneducated and uneducatable and stupid ( most moslems are) and in middle east are the muttawas the religious police.
3.Very ordinary law abiding moslems who refuse to protest the atrocities committed by the above two The silent moslems scum bags all over the infidel land.
4.The enlightened who have left the cult quietly and are al over the world in small numbers.
5.Even smaller number who are bent on bringing down this castle of cards of islam Ali sina etc.
Islam– the religion of peace will kill you if you leave the religion of peace. period.
LondonSpirit, I hate to be blunt with you, but:
Bible’s quotes about apostasy-laws are totally irrelevant because no longer valid, practiced nowhere, thoroughly abrogated.
You and Ibn Kammuna debated about a verse in the Quran. Not about the additional anti-apostasy-verses in the Hadith. The 4 influential Shariah-schools did use these hadith-verses in their considerations.
You or Ibn Kammuna could only DRAW due to vagueness or ambiguity of the meaning of the verses that were examined. A clear win was thus impossible for both of you. But you would have lost the debate probably when the anti-apostasy-Hadith had been in consideration.
Your version of Islam may be largely the version of most other Muslims, but not totally and exactly. The 4 Shariah-schools obviously think different from you about Apostasy. They have influence, you don’t. Their vision is believed and practiced, in most Islamic and even Western countries and India, NOT yours.
The facts are that apostates have been killed, imprisoned many times and that it still happens. That many apostates have to hide, in great fear. That is apostates from Islam and not from Christianity or any other religion. Maybe incidentally, but not in large numbers.
If independent observers look worldwide and not just to Western countries like you seem to do, then they would notice the gross injustice of it, that we FFI-visitors almost all see: In Western countries and India people may convert INTO Islam and have respect, freedom. Whereas in the Islamic countries it is IN PRACTICE (so not according to YOUR THEORY) very dangerous to convert OUT OF ISLAM. There are LAWS and proclaimed rewards in heaven about killing or imprisoning apostates!
It is because of that that we figured you and Kabirlaw would stay out of this thread. But what do both of you do? Try to convince us that Islam does not teach to kill apostates, that Islam teaches freedom of religion! And right after we have seen how it works in practice by this article of Nonie Darwish. Frankly I am flabbergasted why you don’t address the practice of apostasy-killing or intimidating in Egypt, mentioned here. The self-confessed Muslims there, or at least a part of them, obvious are in violation of your theory!
Londo Spirtus,
You still haven't given me verses that i asked you in article, "Beating the woman for allah". Ignoring it means that you cannot do it.
Talking about apostates, it's a common knowledge that apostates are persecuted and fear to come out from their hiding. Here in my country, when a person converted to islam you will have news all over the media, but when you have the opposite, no one report it on the news. The apostates are really suffering everywhere in this world. They are terrorized, insulted, and isolated from his/her ex society. In islamic countries worse things than this happen. Every mouths should check itself with reality. There are many muslim who think that apostate are cursed, ungrateful, lost, enemy of allah, etc, etc, the list is long. In this day and age, only in islam apostate are suffering like this
Now..now.. the verses, please. You have failed the provide concrete proof about pedo mo as a comforter and now do you want to fail in this one too?
Reality (until this day):
- Islam kills apostate
- Christianity doesn't
- Hindu doesn't
- Buddha doesn't (not a chance)
Only a fool who misses something like this. Pathetic.
DEMSCI WROTE: Bible’s quotes about apostasy-laws are totally irrelevant because no longer valid, practiced nowhere, thoroughly abrogated.
ANSWER: The point is to compare the attitude of Christianity towards apostasy then and now. It is true that Christianity today has none of these violent characteristics against apostates. People who leave the religion are not given death threats nor persecuted violently at the edge of a sword – unlike what happened before during the medieval times. It is now a largely peaceful religion and has taken few qualities of its earlier practitioners from the earlier periods.
But this peaceful nature of Christians towards apostasy took time and a considerable amount of evolution over the centuries. Education, tolerance and enlightenment did not find its way into Christianity overnight. It took an awful part of 2000 years for Christianity to be where it is today.
Apostasy is still a very touchy subject in much of the Muslim world, similar to Christianity during the times of the crusade. Different interpretations may exist, but Islam is definitely not a religion of violence nor murder towards any group including apostates who leave the religion peacefully and mean no harm as i have showed verses from the quran that gives the freedom of religion.
Already beacons of tolerance and excellence can be seen emerging in a handful of Muslim communities around the world, such as Singapore, UAE, Bangladesh, Malaysia and many more. The rest of the Muslim Ummah must be given that same chance to develop to that stage.
unfortunantly today we have media and other forms of communication whereby these actions can be uploaded to any site and be given as information accorss the entire world. During early christianity we didnt have such technology so all apostasy actions carried out are only left as articles whereby no one has access to.
So DEMSCI the answer to this question is that it is relevant as it is a law stated in the bible. If you found such verse in the quran. Belive me it would be the focul point of this converstation and it would be mentioned every single time as a way to backlash islam. But because it aint you are now relying on peoples actions and hadiths.
DEMSCI WROTE: You and Ibn Kammuna debated about a verse in the Quran. Not about the additional anti-apostasy-verses in the Hadith. The 4 influential Shariah-schools did use these hadith-verses in their considerations.
ANSWER: Well demsci if none of the verses in the quran state any punishment towards apostates and gives the freedom to belive in any religion you wish why do i now need to consult the hadiths or any islamic schools. Their authority is not higher than the qurans. And i have also in my debate with ibnkammuna showed many propsperus scholars of islam, doctors who say that killing of apostates has nothing to do with islam. So its not a matter of what the hadiths say as if the hadiths contradict with the quran we dont use that hadith. Its as simple as that.
Alot of people use this hadith for satisfaction
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
slam began by inviting and persuading people to embrace it on the merit of its rationality and truth. In Surah Yunus, 10:99, a verse revealed in Mecca at the advent of Islam, Allah says: "Had your Lord willed, everyone on earth would have believed. Do you then force people to become believers?" This and verse 2:256, together with the norm of Shari'a which affirms freedom of religion, have led many Muslim countries today to include in its Constitution an article on freedom of religion as a fundamental right.
In his book, The Punishment for Apostasy in Islam, the former Chief Justice of Pakistan, SA Rahman, noted that even though the subject of apostasy occurred no less than 20 times in the Qur'an, the Holy Book remained silent on death as a punishment. Surah An-Nisa', 4:137-138, state that "Verily, those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief – Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path. Give to the hypocrites the tidings that there is for them a painful torment." If indeed it was Allah's intention to impose the death penalty for apostasy, then such occasion of repeated apostasy could have provoked such a punishment. But neither the first instance of apostasy, nor repeated apostasy brought about capital punishment.
Those who advocate the death penalty for apostasy based their reasoning on a hadith which proclaims, "kill whoever changes his religion". But this hadith is open to varying interpretations on several grounds.
First, this hadith is considered a weak hadith with just a single isnad (this means there is only one chain of transmission or narration) and thus according to the rules of Islamic jurisprudence, it is not enough to validate the death penalty.
Second, this hadith is also considered a general ('amm) hadith in that it is in need of specification (takhsis); for it would otherwise convey a meaning that is not within its purpose. The obvious reading of the hadith would, for example, make liable the death punishment on a Hindu or Christian who converts to Islam. This is obviously not the intention of the hadith. According to the rules of Islamic jurisprudence, when a text is interpreted once, it becomes open to further interpretation and specification. Therefore, many scholars interpret this hadith to apply only to cases of high treason (hirabah), which means declaring war against Islam, the Prophet, or God or the legitimate leadership of the ummah.
Third, and most importantly, there is no evidence to show that Prophet Muhammad saw or his Companions ever compelled anyone to embrace Islam, nor did they sentence anyone to death solely for renunciation of the faith.
Based on these three reasons and the Qur'anic principle of freedom of religion, prominent ulama (scholars) from the seventh to the twentieth centuries have come out with the position that there can be no death penalty for apostasy. According to Professor Hashim Kamali in his award-winning book, Freedom of Expression in Islam, two leading jurists of the generation succeeding the Companions, Ibrahim al-Naka'I and Sufyan al-Thawri, both held that the apostate should be re-invited to Islam, but should never be condemned to death. The renowned Hanafi jurist, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi wrote that even though renunciation of faith is the greatest of offences, it is a matter between man and his Creator, and its punishment is postponed to the Day of Judgement. The Maliki jurist Abul Walid al-Baji and the renowned Hanbali jurist Ibn Taymiyyah have both held that apostasy is a sin which carries no hadd punishment.
In modern times, the celebrated Sheikh of al-Azhar University, the late Mahmud Shaltut who was esteemed for his vast knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence and Qur'anic interpretation, wrote that many ulama are in agreement that hudud cannot be established by a solitary hadith and that unbelief by itself does not call for the death penalty. The current Sheikh of al-Azhar, who was Egypt's former Grand Mufti, Dr Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, also declared that apostasy is not a capital crime.
Many scholars, including Ibn Taymiyyah, Shaltut and Tantawi, said that the death penalty was not meant to apply to a simple change of faith, but to hirabah, that is, when apostasy is accompanied by rebellion against the community and its legitimate leadership.
londonspirit:
NOW some christians such as marie may say well we dont follow the old testament.But this is what jesus himself says in the new testament:
“Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)”
I say:
The Law of the Bible:
In the old testament, divine instruction, given by God to show Israel how to live in covenant relationship with the Lord. The word law in the old testament may indicate: 1. God's revelation in general, including historical narrative and intepretation as well as statutes, ordinances , precepts and commandments. 2. The five books of moses, 3. Specific instruction, such as the law governing the passover or conduct of war. 4. Ceremonial rules for the conduct of worship. 5. Social and moral standards.
londonspirit which of the five do you think Jesus was referring to when he said he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it?
WELL MARIE let me ask you the question. If muhammed said in islam that kill all the unbelivers and has made that a law upon the muslim nation, it is my duty to fulfill his commands and that law as a muslim.
Liekwise whatever law moses introduced to his people jesus made it a duty upon himself that he must fulfill those laws. And he clearly says that jesus has not come to introduce any new laws. you can see that from the end of the verse
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished.
Now if you say that moses is talking about the commandments and not about these laws. Than we know that moses taught that there is only one god with no partners
"Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
# Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
# "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
# "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
# "You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
# "For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
# "Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
# "You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
# "O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
# "You alone [bad] are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
# "For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
# "You alone [bad], Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
# "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
# "‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
# "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
# "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
# "Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
# "I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
# "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
# "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
# "And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad]." Zechariah 14:9
Countless number of verses where moses says ther eis only one god and no partners. So that means jesus has also stated that there is only one god and no other?. correct or not?
Wrong answer londonspirit.
Over the centuries various intepretations of the Law had been added to the religious literature of Judaism. These often added regulations were intended to protect the pious Jew from unintentionally violating any Mosaic statute or ruling. By Jesus's time this oral law was considered to be as binding as scripture itself. Some had even argued that God had given both oral and written law to Moses at Sinai.
Jesus came into conflict with the pharissees and teachers of the Law because he rejected the authority of this tradition and proceeded to give his own, sometimes striking interpretation of the old testament. When Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law, he used that term as any rabbi would. Jesus intended to give full and accurate explanation of the true meaning of the divine revelation.
The main point by Jesus in reinterpreting the Law for his generation is simple: God is not only concerned with a person's behavior but also with a person's heart. Any righteousness of a zealot might achieve is insignificant. So unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven ( Matthew 5:20 ). God condemns not only the act of murder, but also the anger that stimulates it ( Matthew 5:21-22 ). The righteousness God requires demands inner transformation to make the angry compassionate and the lustful loving. The Law, far from being a highway to holiness, is a mirror that reflects man's need for God's forgiveness and his purifying work within.
So the pharisees confident in their self-righteousness, who thanks God because he is not like other men, robbers, evildeors, adulterers, leaved the temple a stranger to the Lord. But the tax collector, grieved by his failures, appeals for mercy and leaves the temple justified before the Lord ( Luke 18:9-14 ).
Hhe Mosaic law of the old testament ( the old covenant )was introduced as a temporary expedient, destined to be replaced in God's good time. So says the author author of Hebrews, who cites Jeremiah as support ( Jeremiah 31: 31-34 and Hebrews ch. 8 ).
londonspirit:
Countless number of verses where moses says ther eis only one god and no partners. So that means jesus has also stated that there is only one god and no other?. correct or not?
I say:
londonspirit Muhammed got the notion that Christians associated that God has partners from heretical Christian sects in Arabia worshipped God, Mary, and Jesus as three separate entities. But orthodox Christianity has always maintained that there is one God and that the trinity is three distinct and inseperable entity in one person. Infact trinity is short for tri-unity. Which means we worship one God. Jesus also preached salvation and he has stated through his parables that salvation can be obtained through him.
MARIE: you gave wrong answer not me you havent answered the question. you just copied and pasted a script that someone else gave and this person is just speaking of his own opinion.. I am reading the words literally.
“Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)”
Can you see the second half of the verse
not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament)
So every law that is written in the old testament should be followed. Look how jesus emphasied it not even the smallest letter should dissapear. Now you are reffering it to what moses was given in mount sinai. OK FOR ARGUMENTS SAKE LETS ASSUME THAT JESUS IS ONLY REFFERING TO THE 10 COMMANDMENTS. THE FIRST TWO OUT OF THE 10 IS
1. You shall not worship any other god but YHWH.
2. You shall not make a graven image.
So clearly this is a message that is being followed more by muslims than by christians. Christians worship jesus and seeks salvation via jesus whereas the law clearly states to worship one god. In the churches chrsitians have images of jesus and statues of jesus and mary but the law clearly states that images shouldnt be made. So you tell me MARIE WHAT PART OF THE FIRST TWO COMMANDMENTS ARE YOU FOLLOWING. YOU YOURSELF DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE FOLLWING.
You call yourselfs christians but jesus never called himself a christian. You worship him but jesus never even said worship him. You belive i ntrinity but jesus never even mentioned trinity. You say jesus has powers of god, but jesus clearly says he can do nothing without gods permission. You say he is the son of go but jesus never calls himself that.
Jesus makes all the claims that muhammed made. He is a servant of god, a prophet of god, he can do nothing of his authority, there is only one god. This is the same message muhammed gives. So it is you thats wrong not me.
You say he speaks in parables and that we should seek salvation from jesus. But jesus clearly says in the bible
mathhew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"
This is a powerful statement made by jesus. I will not prophesis in jesus name, i will not do many wonders in jesus name as i do not want jesus in the next life to say to me that he doesnt know me and say to me that i practise lawlessness.
londonspirit:
MARIE: you gave wrong answer not me you havent answered the question. you just copied and pasted a script that someone else gave and this person is just speaking of his own opinion.. I am reading the words literally.
I say:
I got that answer from the Revell Concise Bible Dictionary.
londonspirit:
“Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)”
I say:
Jesus was referring to the covenant. londonspirit the word Law has more then one meaning in the Bible as I explained before. Jesus came to fulfill the Law which was the covenant God made the Jews and to give the correct interpretation of the Mosaic laws ( the laws on behavior ).
In the New Testament in the theme "law" sometimes means the entire revelation as in John 10:34, 12:34. Sometimes it means the Law given by Moses as in John 7:19-23, and sometimes "law" means the system of of governing society adopted by the Jews of Jesus day which mixed both divine guidelines and mere human traditions as in John 7:51 and 18:31.
londonspirit:
1. You shall not worship any other god but YHWH.
2. You shall not make a graven image.
So clearly this is a message that is being followed more by muslims than by christians. Christians worship jesus and seeks salvation via jesus whereas the law clearly states to worship one god. In the churches chrsitians have images of jesus and statues of jesus and mary but the law clearly states that images shouldnt be made. So you tell me MARIE WHAT PART OF THE FIRST TWO COMMANDMENTS ARE YOU FOLLOWING. YOU YOURSELF DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE FOLLWING.
I say:
Both. We worship one God and do not venerate or treat the images as idols worthy of worship.
londonspirit:
You call yourselfs christians but jesus never called himself a christian. You worship him but jesus never even said worship him. You belive i ntrinity but jesus never even mentioned trinity. You say jesus has powers of god, but jesus clearly says he can do nothing without gods permission. You say he is the son of go but jesus never calls himself that.
I say: Christian comes from the word Christ and Jesus was referred to by Simon (Peter )as the Christ and the son of the living God in Matthew 16:13-17. Jesus responded to Peter in Matthew 16:17 blessed are you Simon ( Peter ) son of Jonah for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my father in heaven. Jesus also mentioned the trinity in Matthew 28:19. Jesus had powers of God but he could not used them without God's permission because had submitted himself to the authority of his father and would not do something without his father's permission.
londonspirit:
Jesus makes all the claims that muhammed made. He is a servant of god, a prophet of god, he can do nothing of his authority, there is only one god. This is the same message muhammed gives. So it is you thats wrong not me.
I say:
Jesus never stated he was prophet of God. In fact in Matthew 16 where Jesus asks his disciples who do people say son of man is, his disciples did say one of the prophets. Jesus did not acknowledge at all. Instead he kept on pressing his disciples until Simon ( Peter ) stated Jesus was the Christ the son of the living God and Jesus praised Simon ( Peter )
londonspirit:
You say he speaks in parables and that we should seek salvation from jesus. But jesus clearly says in the bible
mathhew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”
This is a powerful statement made by jesus. I will not prophesis in jesus name, i will not do many wonders in jesus name as i do not want jesus in the next life to say to me that he doesnt know me and say to me that i practise lawlessness.
I say:
Jesus was talking about people being lead away by false prophets. Matthew 7:15-23 talks about people being lead away by false prophets and will happen to them when they die.
To All:
This website is an insult to intelligent human beings. The so called Dr. Ali Sina thinks that he is so smart. In fact, every negative statement about Islam or the prophet Mohammed that is said on this web site is false. I wonder if the so called Dr. Ali Sina has studied logic or what is Type Alpha and Type Beta errors are. This web site uses Type Alpha errors to mislead the unfortunates who did not pass or have a degree in logic or mathematics. The so called Dr. Ali Sina is challenged to reply to this posting and show a solid prove to every negative claim he is making about Islam or the prophet Mohamed in a logical and mathematical way. Hear say is not an acceptable proof in logic and mathematics. Proofs presented here by so call Dr. Ali Sina are a hear say and are simply a logical fallacy. These proofs do not concur to logical standards and simply are wrong and misleading.
Londo spirtus,
You still haven't given me the verses. Running again. eh?
[...] • Persecution: If You Convert You Die – Nonie [...]
[...] IF YOU CONVERT YOU DIE [...]
Hi LondonSpirit,
I highly appreciated your post about apostasy, as I by accident said to you on the other thread on which we were talking. I highly appreciate your position on apostasy. Also that you pointed out that the Hadith on which death penalty for apostates was based was a weak one. On the whole FFI-visitors are a little flabbergasted how Quran-only-people think. You seem to be a Quran-primarily person. I also liked it when you talked about Islamic advocates of freedom of religion and about the glimmers of hope. Maybe inside the Muslim World there IS a slow change for the good, yes.
Now, I consider outside pressure, like that of FFI/ Islam Watch/ Jihad Watch NOT a bad thing for this. Muslims are welcome to do the same back, and in practice are doing that massively already. Both sides can have reasonable arguments and learn from each other. When behavior is monitored, scrutinized, commented upon, it can tend to become better, on both sides. Your contributions are often spot on, I grudgingly admit. I too know many problems in human behavior are quite universal.
About apostates; They are portrayed by most that they are losing Islam, something important. But I hope with all my heart that they retain the good things they learned in Islam, but that they now have augmented, this with much other wisdom, much other good behavior, or lesser bad behavior maybe. And without Islamic limitations they are free to augment this still further a lot. To promote freedom of religion in the Islamic Countries can thus herald a wonderful positive development. It can even stimulate Muslims to think hard about their religion and behavior and that of their co-religionists and make them try to improve it where they can.
Still arguing about apostasy??? It's loud and clear that apostastes are suffering in this world. Let me ask you this. Which category does killing and persecuting apostate belong to?
I give you 3 categories of order in islam:
1. "Do it" order (obligation)
2. "Don't do it" order (haram)
3. "Suit your self" order (up to you, and you can refer to the hadith for additional source)
And you still haven't give me the verses londo spirtus.
Kabirlaw:
The Hadith you gave in your post refer to the "Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state". In other words to dhimmis, those "people of the book" who have paid the "Jizya out of hand and feel themselves humiliated".
In similar vein most, if not all, of your Koranic quotes do not necessarily refer to apostates from Islam. the majority seem to refer to the Pagan Arabs who heard Mo's preaching but rejected him. this can be extended to those of other faiths who also choose to ignore the message of Islam, rather than those who are Muslim and then wish to leave Islam.
Of all your verses in your first post only 64:12 "Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message." sounds as though it applies to apostates – but even this is a matter of interpretation.
You wrote: "I say this because the Muslims told Abu Sufyan “There is no compulsion in religion” and this meeting with Abu Sufyan took place right towards the end of Muhammad’s (SAW) life."
Correct me if I am wrong: Abu Sufyan was the leader of the Meccan Pagans, who finally converted after the fall of Mecca. If this is so, then this refers to the fact the the Muslims would not force Abu Sofyan INTO Islam and not to apostasy. After Abu Sofyan was Pagan, so he couldn't be an apostate from Islam.
London Spirit:
You are quite right, there isn't a single verse in the Koran that says "kill the apostates".
this then begs the question (stated by several contributors): Why do the four main schools of Fiqh make this the penalty for apostasy?
Neither do the verses you quote refer to apostates – they refer to those who are not Muslims and who will not join Islam, this becomes clearer on a comparison of several (6) translations.
I tend to agree with you that Christianity (once it was conflated with secular power systems) took a long, long time to finally renounce all violence towards apostates etc and I concur that Islam "must be given that same chance to develop to that stage" [enlightenment]. The problem is that with modern weaponry available Islam's progress will be marked in far bloodier footsteps. (e.g. last year more people died in Islamic violence than did in 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition (Wiki and Stats from ROP)
You also quoted: " 'not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament).' So every law that is written in the old testament should be followed. Look how jesus emphasied it not even the smallest letter should dissapear."
Unfortunately in your 'exegesis' (above) you omitted the final phrase of this verse "…until everything is accomplished."
Jesus "accomplished everything" in his death and resurrection. The New Covenant replaces (abrogates, if you prefer) the old. Jesus also rejected other laws and in particular he (as Marie said) attacked the "Jews" (=Jewish Authorities) for putting the traditions (Mishnah – I think) above the Commandments.
You then refer to the first two of the "Ten Commandments" and claim that they are "followed more by muslims than by christians".
This is odd since you refer to the God of the Ten Commandments as YHWH, yet I thought Muslims worshipped il-Alah "the god" (or Allah). If Mo really worshipped YHWH, why did he not say "There is no God but YHWH…"? Thus, arguably, Muslims do not worship YHWH.
In your quote of the second commandment you gave a very partial quote. The import of this commandment is not to worship "graven images". Making them for decoration or even (by a stretch I'll admit) veneration is not explicitly forbidden.
I'd also remind you that at various periods in Islamic history Islamic Art allowed representational pictures of birds, animals and plants.
Marie answers your next points about the name "christian" and his sonship well.
You are right in that Jesus never said "Worship me", however he did accept worship on several occasions, something no 'mere' prophet would do surely?
With regard to Jesus being a prophet: I think some Christians are a bit over-defensive about this.
Prophethood has two elements, to "forth-tell" and to "foretell". Jesus does both, so he is prophet. Christians argue he is the greatest of all prophets, whose coming was foretold "by all the [Jewish] prophets". But he was also more, he was "God with us" or "Emmanuel" as Isaiah calls him (amongst other names).
Your difficulty here LS, is that if you believe (as Mo told you to) in "all the prophets", you must believe what Isaiah wrote and Jesus who fulfills his (Isaiah's) phrophecy is therefore "God with us", or else you call one of God's prophets a liar.
Marie is also right in that Jesus did not acknowledge his prophethood when questioning his disciples, instead he pressed them beyond that point into full realisation of his Sonship. A point she makes well.
You then quote: mathhew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”
Now, I don't know what translation of hte Bible you use, but I haven't found one that uses the phrase "you who practice lawlessness". The translations I have are "all evil-doers" NJB, NRSV, "you wicked people" GNB, "ye that work iniquity" KJV.
The nearest I've managed to find is "you subverters of the law." ASV
Even allowing your translation, LS, what "law" is being referred to here? Marie has already made the point about various meanings of "law" in the NT, so I'll not re-hash that.
Now, the context here is clearly eschatological. Given that the "law" of the NT abrogates that of the OT, then it is NT law, not the Mosaic, that Jesus refers to here. This point is better demonstrated by all the other translations I've quoted.
then you say: "…i do not want jesus in the next life to say to me that he doesnt know me and say to me that i practise lawlessness."
Interesting!
Are you saying that it is important for you to be known by and thus know Jesus and that he will judge you, LS? (I think you could have put yourself on some shaky theological ground here, LS!)
Oops! Erratum in last post:
I wrote "After Abu Sofyan was Pagan, so he couldn’t be an apostate from Islam."
I meant " Abu Sofyan …"
Sorry, I made a non-sense of my own post!
That coward londo spirtus keep running from my questions and yet he boasted like the usual gorillas in the zoo. Pathetic. Muslim are all the same.
My African brothers, what is wrong with you? You see what Westerners are having and what life style they are living and you will do the same. Allah st gave you patience and brain to think and realize that it is better to suffer in this short life and be generously awarded in a hereafter. But some of you who do not believe in Allah st would like other people to follow you on this road of self-destruction. It will not happen. Most brothers and sisters from Africa are a good Muslims and they will be reworded when the time comes, but you traitors, you will get your share of punishment.
We have to realize one thing. People who convert from Islam to other faiths are not doing it because they are strong believers but it is opposite, they do that for variety of interests. There conversion has nothing to do with believe in Allah st. Those people simple do not believe in existence of the God.
Still debating over the killing of the apostates in Islam ? Why ?
Reality is overwhelming and coming from all corners of the world. Beside… Muslims say don't listen to Ali Sina , Robert Spencer, Nagla Al-Imam, and Nonie Darwish. No !!! Instead go to scholars of Islam, if possible to Al Ahzar ones and they will set you straight ! They did, alright… In Islam apostates and those accused of blasphemy must be killed. And they, the sholars, are trying to get Sayed Mahmoud El Qemany killed.
Why do you bother with London Spirit and Kirbylaw ? These two practice philosophy not Islam.
"Allah st gave you patience and brain to think and realize that it is better to suffer in this short life and be generously awarded in a hereafter."
Oh, do you mean banging the houris or having 28 young boys??? Funny to hear the word "brain" from you.
I gave 3 categories of orders and no muslim respond to it. Hah, figures
I have already read detail scripts of Ali Sina and Mark A Gabriel carefully, in my opinion these scripts are very very comprehensive! If their contains are correct and fair – and I believe so based on the background of publisher- with all logical consciousness, I think that quran / islam is a kind of threat or total confusion which created by obsessed insane human being. You all guys go reading for them, then no need to argue here any more !!!
The laws of nature have come back to restore equilibrium on earth. There are too many inhabitants on earth and we need to balance the scales. If not, there will be millions dying of starvation.
The muslims are helping in this balance. If they push the rest of the world to a point where they cannot take it anymore all the muslim countries will be obliterated from this earth. Sadly even the good countries will suffer.
Time will tell….
To Kafur, Logical Explanation should not be evaluated with any basis of facts. Sharia Laws are laws implemented against the laws of GOD. Pretty much the same with other countries too. I'm not against MUSLIMS, I LOVE THEM as GOD Loves us. BUT the problem raised here is about people are the one who does the Wrath of GOD for Him.
ISLAM is like merely wide and huge FRATERNITY ORGANIZATION in the world. We Non-Muslims see ISLAM as a religion of HATE. We do not see PEACE.