Javed Ahmad Ghamidi / Dr. Khalid Zaheer vs Ali Sina
Part II
Date: Sep 27, 2006
I don’t want to waste your time and that of the visitors of your site by presenting apologies and excuses for being late in the response. I hope and
pray that the future responses wouldn’t be delayed by as long a duration as the one this message has taken.
I must clarify, by way of a disclaimer, that, now that myself and Mr Javed Ahmad Ghamidi are living in two different cities, at least temporarily, what
I am writing is in consultation with him on the basis of a telephonic conversation. I am taking the liberty of writing a much briefer message than
what it should have been if I were to mention everything he had suggested. The reason why I am doing so is that I personally believe that relatively
brief messages help in attracting a larger readership than the longer ones. So, for instance, whereas Mr Ghamidi would have liked me to quote ten
examples to prove a point, I would, for the sake of brevity, confine myself to two. However, if you would so demand, I would go for the longer versions of responses too.
We believe that what the rest of the Qur’an says is consistent with the above statement. The following explanation is an attempt to clarify position
on the issue: There can be three categories of individuals from the point of view of their attitude and performance in the trial of this worldly life:
the good performers who would succeed in the next life on the merit of their own deeds; the criminally inclined, obstinate individuals who wouldn’t
deserve any mercy from the Almighty; and the in-between performers who mix good deeds with bad ones but nonetheless are not obstinate transgressors. While the first category wouldn’t need any intercession, the second category wouldn’t deserve one. Intercession would only be needed by, and allowed to, people belonging to the third category.
In our worldly life, we too tend to make a distinction on the basis of attitude while dealing with people who do things that are wrong. An employee
who is not extremely efficient but is not seen to be disloyal to the organization gets, or deserves to get, a treatment which is different from
the one meted out to the one who is both inefficient and disloyal. Likewise is what God Almighty is going to do in the next life: His
less-efficient-but-loyal servants would receive His mercy, albeit through the agency of intercession. The disloyal criminals would deserve no mercy.
Having said that, here are the responses to the, basically, two problems you’ve raised on Qur’anic teachings:
1) As for the problems of understanding in the Qur’anic description of intercession in the life hereafter, you’ve agreed in your message that if
that understanding was to remain confined to what is mentioned in the following Qur’anic verse, it would be reasonable and logically acceptable:
“[A reward] from the Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that lies between them; the most Gracious – there is no one who has the authority to
speak on His behalf. [It will happen] on the Day when Gabriel and the angels will stand arrayed [before Him]. [It will be the Day] when only they will
speak whom the most Gracious allows and who speak the truth.” (97:37-38)
We believe that what the rest of the Qur’an says is consistent with the above statement. The following explanation is an attempt to clarify position
on the issue: There can be three categories of individuals from the point of view of their attitude and performance in the trial of this worldly life:
the good performers who would succeed in the next life on the merit of their own deeds; the criminally inclined, obstinate individuals who wouldn’t
deserve any mercy from the Almighty; and the in-between performers who mix good deeds with bad ones but nonetheless are not obstinate transgressors. While the first category wouldn’t need any intercession, the second category wouldn’t deserve one. Intercession would only be needed by, and allowed to, people belonging to the third category.
In our worldly life, we too tend to make a distinction on the basis of attitude while dealing with people who do things that are wrong. An employee
who is not extremely efficient but is not seen to be disloyal to the organization gets, or deserves to get, a treatment which is different from
the one meted out to the one who is both inefficient and disloyal. Likewise is what God Almighty is going to do in the next life: His
less-efficient-but-loyal servants would receive His mercy, albeit through the agency of intercession. The disloyal criminals would deserve no mercy.
Intercession would be used as a mode of applying God’s mercy for the less-efficient-but-loyal servants for two reasons: The treatment meted out
to them and the high performers should remain distinct and the highest performing servants should get the additional reward of getting the honour
of successfully interceding for some other people. Indeed this process of intercession would not violate the basic principle outlined in the
above-quoted verse: “[It will be the Day] when only they will speak whom the most Gracious allows and who speak the truth.” (97:37-38) In other words, the Almighty would Himself identify the people who would be allowed to intercede and the ones they would be allowed to intercede for. In the process of intercession, they would not speak anything but the truth. Wherever the Qur’an talks about intercession, it does so within the
parameters of the above-stated principle.
As for the mention of intercession in ahadith, we have already stated that the only two reliable sources of knowledge of Islam are Qur’an and sunnah, While the Qur’an is the book of God that was preserved through the process of memorizing from the first generation onwards in a way that its originality is beyond doubt, similar is the case of sunnah, the religious practices of the prophet– in fact the earlier prophets too — that he
performed in the presence of his companions who emulated him even after his death and the next generations followed suit. The authenticity of
originality of these sunnah practices — like for example, prayers, pilgrimage, burial rites etc. — are at par with the Qur’an. Both have been
passed on from generation to another in accordance with God’s scheme to preserve the last religion revealed by Him.
The case of ahadith is not the same. These reports about the prophet’s life are a record of what he did, said, or what happened during his lifetime,
compiled by individuals at their own initiative. Unlike the Qur’an and sunnah, the contents of ahadith do not contain a completely authentic
description of the prophet’s mission. There could be both inadvertent errors in the hadith literature as well as mentions that resulted out of deliberate attempts at distorting the true picture of Islam. The important thing is that while the Qur’an and sunnah are end result of the God-ordained arrangement, ahadith are the result of human effort. We therefore don’t take the responsibility of defending what is mentioned in this literature.
2) The other problem you have pointed out in the Qur’an is regarding the inconsistent use of pronouns for God. To understand why it has so happened, one must appreciate that the Qur’an is not just a bland piece prose in Arabic that was revealed to hand down some instructions to the prophet. It is a masterpiece of Arabic literature. Like other literary masterpieces, the use of pronouns in the Qur’an, as indeed in the case of many other aspects of its styles of presentation, should be viewed from that perspective. The use of third person pronoun by an author may be considered an error by a reader not fully conversant with literary writings. To someone who knows the subtle delicacies presentations that are expressed in the highest level of literary taste, usage of the same pronoun can raise that work from the level of ordinary prose to a much higher level of literary taste. The Qur’an was revealed not just to influence the ordinary people of the Arabian society; it had come to have a deep impact on the elite of the society who wouldn’t have been impressed by a message that expressed itself in a simple, dull language. Thus Qur’anic style of presentation should not be critically examined from the point of view of ordinary logic. It has to be appreciated from the standpoint of the richness of its literary stature.
Zamakhshari, a twelfth century exegete, whose literary appreciation of the Qur’an is widely acknowledged, has given several examples of the usage of third person pronouns by the top-grade classical poets of the Arabian society. If needed, I will quote them. The Qur’an had not just to match them in the beauty of their literary style. It had to outperform them to reach the hearts of the elite class and, through them, the ordinary people as well. It shouldn’t come as a surprise then that God uses He and Him for Himself on several occasions. In case such usage is to be criticized, it
should be done on the parameters of literary appreciation of the classical Arabic.
Just to help appreciate our point, I am mentioning a couplet each from Iqbal and Ghalib, the two most outstanding Urdu poets of the Indian subcontinent.
The translations are my own:
Urdu:
Iqbal bara ubdaishak hay man baatoon main moh laita hay
Guftar ka who ghazi to bana, kirdar ka ghazi ban na saka
Iqbal is a great sermonizer: He wins the hearts through what he says
Despite winning the verbal battle, he couldn’t win the battle of character
Urdu:
Atay hain ghaib say yeh mazamin khyal main
Ghalib sareere khama-e naway-e saroosh hay
Ideas come to him from the heavens
Ghalib is only the scribe of the voices of angels
In both cases, the great poets are using third person pronouns for themselves. Anyone who would accuse them of committing logical error in
presentation would attract the criticism that he is devoid of a taste for appreciation of literary masterpieces. Likewise is true for the Qur’an.
Khalid Zaheer
Date: Sep 30, 2006
Ali Sina’s Response
Dear Mr. Ghamidi and Mr. Zaheer;
Greetings and thank you for the response! You have been brief and to the point. I will try to do the same.
1– In your introduction to Sura Naba, Mr. Ghamidi, you quoted the verses 78: 37‑40 and in the footnote you wrote:
“This and the next two verses strongly negate the philosophy of mediation and intercession.”
I agreed with that and affirmed that intercession makes no sense.
But then I pointed out that many Muslims believe that intercession is possible, and I quoted several verses that make that belief plausible.
However in your latest response you indicated, “intercession would only be needed by, and allowed to, people belonging to the third category.”
So obviously I had not understood you correctly at first or you are having a second thought. It appears to me that now you are saying that intercession is possible. Is my understanding correct?
If intercession is not possible, I would like you to explain why in so many places Muhammad claims that he will be the intercessor and that others to whom permission has been given can also intercede.
If intercession is possible, then we have a logical problem to solve. Doesn’t God know everything? What can possibly any intercessor tell Him that He does not know already? The Quranic verses say that intercession would be allowed to those who speak the truth. This makes no sense. Can anyone tell a lie to God when he already knows everything? Why does he need the opinion of others when he knows best? What is the point in talking to God when he already knows what we are going to say, and we know that he knows what is in our mind?
Furthermore, if God’s wisdom, compassion and mercy exceed those of his creatures, why would he need any creature of him to tell him, “please be more forgiving and merciful”? Can possibly anyone be more merciful to other humans than God?
When I agreed with you, it was because I understood you say the Quran “strongly negates the philosophy of mediation and intercession”. But this does not seem to be the case. So, I can’t agree with you and you should explain logically why an all-knowing, all‑wise God needs intercessions by his creatures. Is there anything that God does not know that the intercessor can inform him? The philosophy of intercession denies not only the omniscience of God, but also his mercy and fairness. It implies that Muhammad and “those to whom permission is given” know things that Allah does not know, or that they are more forgiving and merciful that God.
You brought the example of an employee who is loyal but not very efficient and that his employer tolerates some of his ineptitudes in consideration of his loyalty. Let us agree with this premise. The question is why this employer needs someone to intercede with him on behalf of this lousy but loyal employee. An intercessor would only make sense if the employer does not have the full knowledge of the situation. So he would ask the opinion of the superior of this employee who knows him best. But if God knows everything better than anyone else, and is wiser than all his creatures and his prophets, why would he need anyone’s opinion? Doesn’t this imply that Muhammad knows something about humans that Allah does not know?
According to Islam, Allah is perfect while Muhammad and Muslims are not. Will you please explain why a perfect being would listen to the opinions of imperfect creatures? If the claim that Allah knows best is true, then intercession by creatures is not needed and is sheer arrogance.
The concept of intercession is nothing but blasphemy. Muhammad is claiming to have the power to act as God’s advisor. He even grants this preposterous privilege to his followers. If someone deserves a break because of his loyalty or for any other reason, shouldn’t God know that better than his prophet? By claiming that he has the power to intercede with God, Muhammad is assuming the role of the Almighty’s partner.
You wrote: “In other words, the Almighty would Himself identify the people who would be allowed to intercede and the ones they would be allowed to intercede for. In the process of intercession, they would not speak anything but the truth.”
I can’t understand the logic of this protocol. Let us say God decides to punish someone for a sin. Has he made his decision wisely or not? Is his decision based on knowledge or is it based on ignorance? Then he appoints some good Muslims to intercede on behalf of this individual. These Muslims prostrate in front of Allah and tell him, “Oh Allah, please forgive this man because he was a loyal Muslim,” and Allah, after hearing some supplications, plays with his beard for a moment and says, “Okay, because you interceded I changed my mind and will forgive him.” Doesn’t this sound ludicrous? If this individual deserves to be forgiven why won’t God forgive him in the first place? What these Muslims can possibly tell God that He does not know, and how can a bunch of humans influence the decision of the maker of this universe? Is God so whimsical? Doesn’t this imply that his original decision was not right? If it was right, why change it? If it was not right was it based on faulty information or poor judgment?
Funny thing is that Allah already knows that his decision is not right and the person deserves better treatment. So he asks his prophet and some good Muslims to beg so he can change his decision and make it right.
We should also remember verse 7:188, where allegedly Allah tells Muhammad to say:
I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me: I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith.
There is also a hadith where Muhammad said:
By Allah, I do not know what Allah will do with me though I am Allah’s Apostle. ‘[Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 334]
In one of his sermons, calculated to instill the fear of Allah and the day of reckoning in the hearts of men, Muhammad said:
O people of Quraish be prepared for the hereafter, I cannot save you from the punishment of Allah; O Bani Abd Manaf, I cannot save you from Allah; O Abbas, son of Abdul Mutalib, I cannot protect you either; O Fatima, daughter of Muhammad, even you I cannot save. [Abdul Ghani, USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts, “Description of the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)”, www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/prophet/prophetdescription.html.]
How, then, can such a person, who has no power over anything except what Allah tells him, and does not know what will be his own end, claim to know that he will be an advisor to Allah on the Day of Judgment advocating for Muslims?
Imagine Allah sitting on his throne and condemning a Muslim to Hell, knowing that this person deserves better. So he turns to Muhammad and winks. Mo goes on his knees and supplicates to Allah to forgive that man. Then Allah smiles and tells that Muslim, “I have forgiven your sin because of Muhammad. Now you go to Paradise and be thankful to Muhammad.”
This is comedy. It is clear that Muhammad said something at one time and then forgot and said something else at another time. The whole story is just ludicrous. This is enough proof that Muhammad was making things up.
Now imagine this scene happening billions of times, once for every Muslim that ever lived and had a grain of faith in Muhammad. (All Muslims have that much faith or they would not call themselves Muslim.) Let us say there will be about 10 billion Muslims in total, since the beginning of Islam to the Day of Resurrection and let us say it takes just one minute for Muhammad to intercede on behalf of each one of them. That is really fast justice. At this rate, if Muhammad and Allah work nonstop, 24 hours per day and all days of the year, the Day of Judgment will have to last 19,000 years. Now imagine you have lived 60 or 80 years in this world and will have to stand in line for over 19,000 years to receive your judgment. If there are twice that many Muslims, then the Day of Judgment will last 38,000 years. If the intercession ritual takes more than one minute per person, the waiting time will be longer. If Allah and Muhammad take coffee breaks, you’ll have to stand in line a few extra thousands of years. We are not even counting the time that it will take to process the non-Muslims, because we assume that they will all be herded to hell like the Jews being sent to Nazi gas chambers, and Allah will not waste a minute of his time on them.
If the Quran says intercession is possible, the Quran is engaging in a logical fallacy. It is undermining the omniscience of God and is confuting His superior wisdom and mercy.
My dear erudite friends, I think you have a big logical problem in front of you. You either must accept intercession or reject it. If you reject it, then explain why Muhammad claims to have that power, and if you accept it then you are engaging in blasphemy.
2– In response to my second question asking why Allah in the Quran abruptly changes pronouns and sometimes refers to himself in third person, you said that it is because the Quran “is a masterpiece of Arabic literature”.
I agree that sometimes a speaker or a writer speaks of himself in third person and this is acceptable. However this is not the recipe to transform a dull writing into a masterpiece of literature. The Quran is not a masterpiece of literature by any standard. If we continue this debate long enough, I will show you the errors in the Quran that prove clearly the author of this book has been indeed an illiterate man and not the almighty God. Switching from one pronoun to another without notice only creates confusion and it does not transform a prosaic writing into a masterpiece of literature.
Sura Al-Fatiha, the first sura of the Quran, is the one that all Muslims read regularly. Let us read it again.
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
The Beneficent, the Merciful.
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
Keep us on the right path.
The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.
Are these the words of God? Who is God supplicating to?
This topic in my view is clear. The following is my next question:
A Beast as the Messenger of Allah
When Muhammad claimed to be a prophet, people who knew him best laughed at him. They asked for proof. He had none. Then they asked why God does not send an angel, so they could be sure of his message. Muhammad’s response to them was that God sends human prophets to humans.
People said:
You are no more than a human being like us! You wish to turn us away from what our fathers used to worship. Then bring us a clear authority. (14:10)
This is logical. If Muhammad did not present any proof, how could people know he is telling them the truth? (See also 23:47.)
Allah responded by asking:
Is it a wonder for mankind that We have inspired a man among them? (10:2)
He further complained:
That was because there came to them their Messengers with clear proofs (signs), but they said: “Shall mere men guide us?” (64:6) [Hilali-Khan translation.]
Well, I would like to see that clear proof. If we had clear proof we would not be having this discussion. Then Allah gives his reasons why messengers to humans are always humans and not angels or something else.
And naught prevented mankind from believing when the guidance came unto them save that they said: “Hath Allah sent a mortal as (His) messenger?” Say: “If there were in the earth angels walking secure, We had sent down for them from heaven an angel as messenger.” (17:94‑95)
We never sent before thee any messengers but lo! They verily ate food and walked in the markets. And We have appointed some of you a test for others: Will ye be steadfast? And thy Lord is ever Seer. And those who look not for a meeting with Us say: “Why are angels not sent down unto us and (Why) do we not see our Lord!” Assuredly they think too highly of themselves and are scornful with great pride. (25:20- 21)
And We have not sent before you but men from (among) the people of the towns, to whom We sent revelations. (12:109)
And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not? We gave them not bodies that would not eat food, nor were they immortals. (21:7-8)
Ibn Kathir in the tafseer (Quranic exegesis) of Sura Al-Isra explains:
And there are many other similar Ayat. Then Allah says, pointing out His kindness and mercy towards His servants that He sends to them Messengers of their own kind so that they will understand what he says and will be able to speak to him directly. If He sent to mankind a Messenger from among the angels, they would not be able to deal with him face to face and learn from him, as Allah says: “Indeed, Allah conferred a great favor on the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves” (3:164)
Ibn Kathir is right; there are other verses. What I quoted so far is enough to make us understand that for men, only men will be sent as messengers. But we find that Allah contradicts himself.
And when the word is fulfilled concerning them, We shall bring forth a beast of the earth to speak unto them because mankind had not faith in Our revelations. (27:82)
Here Allah is promising that he will send a beast to bring his message to mankind. Doesn’t this belie everything he has said in all those above-mentioned verses? Do beasts of the earth speak Arabic better than angels? What kind of beast will be this messenger of Allah? Will it be a jackass, a camel, a crocodile or a chimpanzee? How would we recognize it? According to Islam, jinnis can also appear in the form of animals. Why can animals speak to humans and angels can’t?
Then again, didn’t Muhammad claim to be the last prophet? (Quran 33:40.) If he was the last one to bring us a message from God, then what is this beast going to be? If this beast is going to bring us a message, he is a messenger and the title of khatama alnnabiyyeen (the last of prophets) that Muhammad claimed for himself should go to this animal. If 33:40 is right, then the verse 27:82 must be wrong.
Furthermore, it is not true that angels don’t bring messages from God to humans. The Quran itself testifies that at the time of Solomon there were two angels in Babel, Harut and Marut, who spoke to people and said “We are only a temptation, therefore disbelieve not (in the guidance of Allah).” Then the Quran says:
And from these two (angels) people learn that by which they cause division between man and wife; but they injure thereby no-one save by Allah’s leave. And they learn that which harmeth them and profiteth them not. (2:102)
Also the Quran says an angel appeared to Zechariah the father of John (Yahya) and brought him the glad tiding that he is going to have a son:
Then the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: That Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a Word from Allah, and honorable and chaste and a prophet from among the good ones. (3:39)
Don’t these two verses contradict the previous verses that deny the possibility of angels coming to humans as messengers?
A little further down (3:42, 45) again it is an angel who brings a message to Mary the mother of Jesus, informing her that she is going to have a son. In another part of the Quran, the same angel is appearing to Mary and says:
“I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy.” (19:19)
Either angels can be messengers of God to humans or they can’t. In either case, some of the verses of the Quran must be false.
The difficulty does not end here. The above verses are emphatic that the messengers that Allah sends to each species will be of the same species. However, the Quran says that Muhammad was sent as a messenger also to the jinn.
And when We turned towards you a party of the jinn who listened to the Quran; so when they came to it, they said: Be silent; then when it was finished, they turned back to their people warning (them). (46:29)
Then the jinnis said to each other:
And whoever does not accept the-Divine caller, he shall not escape in the earth and he shall not have guardians besides Him, these are in manifest error. (46:32)
The same claim is made in Sura Al-Jinn (72:1-14).
There are also many hadiths that talk about Muhammad going to the jinnis and teaching them Islam. For brevity I pass them up.
How could Muhammad, who was a man, at least according to his own claim, become a messenger to the jinn when in so many verses he said to each species will be sent a messenger of their own kind?
The Quran claims that both jinnis and men have received messengers from among them.
O assembly of jinn and men! Did there not come to you messengers from among you, relating to you My communications and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours? (6:130)
According to the Quran also angels have their own messengers:
Allah chooses messengers from angels and from men, for Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things). (22:75)
All praise is due to Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, the Maker of the angels, apostles flying on wings, two, and three, and four; He increases in creation what He pleases; surely Allah has power over all things. (35:1)
So how could Muhammad go to the jinnis and become their messenger and how come to us humans, a beast will be sent to deliver the message of Allah? Could it be that Muhammad was actually a jinni, deceiving people and posing as a prophet?
Let us ignore all these verses and accept the ones that say messengers to men will be always men. Was not Muhammad a man? Was not Gabriel an angel? Don’t the verses that deny the possibility of angels acting as messengers of God to men belie the entire claim of Muhammad? Muhammad claimed that the Quran was dictated to him by an angel and in the same Quran we read that God does not send angels as messengers to humans. Don’t these contradictions prove that Muhammad was a liar?
I remain sincerely yours.
Ali Sina
Upon informing Mr. Zaheer that I have published my response, he wrote:
Dear Mr Ali Sina
I am finding it difficult to access your site. Can I get your response
directly? Thanks.
Khalid Zaheer
This is regrettable. It seems that they have blocked faithfreedom.org in Pakistan. Several Islamic countries have blocked us. For 1400 years, Muslim leaders have kept the masses ignorant. In this way they could rule them better. But for how long can they keep people in the dark?
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