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rainbow
Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:29 am Post subject: question to EX-muslims (not stopnots) |
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I couldn't find anywhere to put this question as everywhere else is locked, so here I go ... My ex husband; an Algerian muslim, will be phoning me soon. We are still good friends. He has in the last 5 years or so become a very pious muslim, spending most of his time in the mosque and has done the Hadj. He did express his outrage at the 9/11 bombings, and he used to get upset about terrorism. His response was; 'this is not islam!'. I don't know if that has changed in the past few years. Anyway, how can I begin to bring up this subject with him and hopefully - maybe? - get him to review Islam for what it is? What should be my opening sentences?
thanks,
Rainbow |
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Brigitte
Joined: 14 Dec 2002
Posts: 283
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Hi Rainbow,
As my own husband is a tunesian muslim, I feel some special bound with you.
I have been working for almost 2 years now on my husband's understanding of the world and islam especially. The only results I booked where those in reference to fundamentalist and other al quaeda attacks, because those can't be ignored by anyone, not even by well hearted muslims themselves. He also came to reject the ahadith and decided to be a "quran-only" muslim, after I pointed him out the most abject and/or stupid ahadith.
Now, you said that your husband is a regular mosque-visitor and is into islam deeply... I hate to dissapoint you, but beware of this guy, especially Algerians are actually involved with the fundamental islam, wether they live in Algeria or in the West...
You might try to have him here to discuss with us.
I hope this forum will be OK very soon, it is needed.
If he doesn't want to come here (such as my own husband), you can start on some quranic verses or ahadith that are very violent and discriminatory (see frontpage) and build your reasoning up from there on.
Let us know what'sgoing on, ok?
Take care.
Brigitte
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Iznogoodh
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:30 am Post subject: Re: question to EX-muslims (not stopnots) |
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| rainbow wrote: | I couldn't find anywhere to put this question as everywhere else is locked, so here I go ... My ex husband; an Algerian muslim, will be phoning me soon. We are still good friends. He has in the last 5 years or so become a very pious muslim, spending most of his time in the mosque and has done the Hadj. He did express his outrage at the 9/11 bombings, and he used to get upset about terrorism. His response was; 'this is not islam!'. I don't know if that has changed in the past few years. Anyway, how can I begin to bring up this subject with him and hopefully - maybe? - get him to review Islam for what it is? What should be my opening sentences?
thanks,
Rainbow |
Hello Rainbow,
First thing I thought of was: why bring up the subject of islam at all in what might simply be a social talk between two people who are on good terms with eachother?
But, should for some reason (a desire of yours and/or a desire of his) a talk about Islam be unavoidable, then ask him what he thinks of a book that more than 200 times tells him that you, no less than his good friend, should burn in hell or be destroyed for "not wanting to see the signs and being haughty". The Quran draws a line between "them" and "us".
Iznogoodh |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Dear Rainbow,
There is a continuum between direct and indirect criticism. Through trial and error, or via past experience, you can determine how much criticism he can handle. If you go beyond his threshold, he might distance himself from you. So I believe it is more effective to be patient and to err on the side of being less critical. People tend to get used to criticism, so over time you can gradually get more critical. No criticism is ineffective.
One approach of indirect criticism is via a 3rd party. If you quote ali sina or other non-muslims, it is viewed as being anti-muslim. But if you quote the quran, hadith and traditional sources well that is fair game. So you can be critical of any outside party.
Another approach is that if you want to educate him about a particular islamic fallacy, show a case in your own life (without ever bringing up islam) of such a logical fallacy and explain why it is wrong.
One idea is from page 50 of Irshad Manji's "The trouble with Islam" She wrote:
| Quote: | Did I know about ijtihad? he asked. Not j-i-h-a-d but i-j-t-i-h-a-d. (He even helped me pronounce it: "IJ-tee-had.") Ijtihad, he told me, was the Islamic tradition of independent reasoning, which he claimed every Muslim, female or male, straight or gay, old or young, to update his or her religious practice in light of contemporary circumstances.
Ij-tee-had. It's a tradition within Islam? It's about independent thought? I'll be damned. (Maybe literally.)
Reflecting on it further, I recalled coming across the word ijtihad in my post madressa readings. But it had appeared without fanfare, presented more as a parched legalism than as a revolutionary concept. Besides, the impression I carried was that only religious authorities could legitimately engage in interpreting the Koran. Learning about ijtihad spurred me to ask: "Who are these religious authorities? I mean, does the Koran recognize a formal clergy? Nope. Do the Koran's wild mood swings make any interpretation of its text subjective and selective? Yep. So, could it be the right of independent thinking in the tradition of ijtihad, is in fact open to all of us? That by abrogating this right to themselves, the follow-my-fatwa ayataollas are the actual heretics? |
Try to show that ideas must compete in the public domain. How can one be expected to know what is the correct religion without questioning? How can one know which verson of Islam is right without questioning? It is hypocritical for one to claim that he is following the path of allah, if he is in fact following the opposite of koran. Questioning is very important.
Try to be neutral and non-judgmental. Create a relaxed atmosphere. Discussions should be while walking or other liesurely stress-free activities.
You need to understand the foundation of his beliefs. You need to know his weakspots, this can help in tailormaking your case.
| Quote: | | My ex husband; an Algerian muslim, will be phoning me soon. We are still good friends. He has in the last 5 years or so become a very pious muslim, spending most of his time in the mosque and has done the Hadj. He did express his outrage at the 9/11 bombings, and he used to get upset about terrorism. His response was; 'this is not islam!'. I don't know if that has changed in the past few years. Anyway, how can I begin to bring up this subject with him and hopefully - maybe? - get him to review Islam for what it is? What should be my opening sentences? |
I am a little confused regarding your relationship. The above assumed you have a good relationship and that you see each other regularly. If not let me know, and I'll try plan B.
Regarding opening sentences. The primary idea is to make the case why free-thought, critical thought, being educated well-rounded is important. You can make that point in a particular area of your life. You can then explain your vision of how this should apply to religion also. In making that point, you need to search for islamic theological support that he would buy. Once he is sold on this point, and you maintain a close relationship, that is a large part of the battle.
Best wishes,
Rand |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:47 am Post subject: |
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rainbow
Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 5:13 am Post subject: |
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Thank you Brigitte, Rand and Iznogood,
Rand, My ex and I have been on good terms for 10 years. We are both happily re-married yet we have always had a good telephone relationship where we used to discuss all kinds of things. In the past few years I have noticed he seems to be distancing himself from me, which I think is a bit sad when you have known someone for so long. My inkling is that it has to do with him becoming more 'moslem'. Last time we spoke he was urging me to go on the Hadj, and do the Ramadan etc. I know I have to take a very careful, sensitive approach, like you said; to start small.
But he has not phoned me, as per my request. So I am beginning to suspect he may be turning more insular 
If he does phone, I'll just ask a few questions and see how that goes. I'll keep you posted, if interested.
Thanks again,
Rainbow |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:19 am Post subject: |
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Dear Rainbow,
The 1st step is to decide whether you want a relationship. Some people that are part of a muslim community try to run-away.
One choice is to restart the phone relationsip. The primary goal is to 1st discuss non-islamic topics. Since, as a religous person, he might see god in everything, he will bring up allah. At this stage, you should be uncritical and accepting. This will give you a chance to understand his current views and to establish a relationship.
Right now, you have little leverage. For example, if you were deeply attached to one another in a commited relationship, and you make a critical remark, it is unlikely, he would runaway. You could apologize. But, as it is, your relationship is weak, that he might runaway if you criticize allah, especially given that the quran sanctions such behavior. Hence, if you establish a relationship, you need to be indirect and subtle.
====
You might try a floater after establishing a relationship. You can 1st explain to him about ijtihad, and other openminded islam. See if he buys into it. In a subsequent phone-call, assuming he agrees about openmindedness. mention how you read somewhere or know someone (your memory is fuzzy, you don't remember where reading it), that believes in intellectual jihad. A war of ideas. Ask if he believes in that concept. Anyway, this person felt that many younger muslims are going to be living in open societies and are going to be exposed to islam via non-muslims. Non-muslims are going to explain to muslims their view of allah, muhammad, and the quran and hadith. This person felt that one of the pillars of islam, is to go to islamic web sites that are run by non-muslims and to debate them. He said that a muslim who was afraid that he would lose such a debate doubts in allah, and is a hypocrite. Of course, allah would help a true muslim, beat a kafir in a debate. What do they know about islam? Try to get his thoughts on this idea. You neither agree nor disagree with this person. You were just interested in your ex's view.
3rd party approach--Never state your beliefs, that is between you and god. If you explain your view on a topic, and he views that as heretical, you are a heretic and need to be distanced from. Instead, if you quote a 3rd party, and he gets upset, you can chose to disagree and be upset with that 3rd party. It might be interesting if you quote your ex against him. If he once used a logical argument against christianity, yourself, etc. you can accept that logical argument that you learned from him and use it on islam.
If you choose not to establish a relationship then another type of 3rd party approach is needed. This requires creativity and untraceability. An example. Suppose there was a book, lecture series, email, letter or person that could make him a kafir. You cause that item to become available to him, without him knowing it was from you. Such a method can backfire, so be very careful.
===
As you are planning on establishing a rapport, you need to spend time trying to research islam as well as keeping a diary or word document of your conversations. That can help you in focusing the areas of criticism that are needed.
Best regards,
Rand |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Dear Rainbow,
Rainbow wrote:
| Quote: | | My inkling is that it has to do with him becoming more 'moslem'. Last time we spoke he was urging me to go on the Hadj, and do the Ramadan etc. I know I have to take a very careful, sensitive approach, like you said; to start small. |
Sunan Abu Dawud wrote:
| Quote: | Book 40, Number 4579:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Jews were split up into seventy-one or seventy-two sects; and the Christians were split up into seventy one or seventy-two sects; and my community will be split up into seventy-three sects. |
There is not just one path to Islam.
You might benefit from reading Irshad Manji's book: "The trouble with Islam: A muslim's call for reform in her faith" She is much too openly critical to be directly used, but she brings out various issues that need to be addressed and how she deals with them.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=7243&highlight= discusses islamic fallacies.
Best regards,
Rand |
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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Brigitte wrote:
| Quote: | | I hate to dissapoint you, but beware of this guy, especially Algerians are actually involved with the fundamental islam, wether they live in Algeria or in the West... |
Iznogoodh wrote:
| Quote: | | The Quran draws a line between "them" and "us" |
Rand wrote:
| Quote: | | People tend to get used to criticism, so over time you can gradually get more critical. No criticism is ineffectiv |
Assalamu Alaikum rainbow,
I hope I am not disturbing your topic by posting my thoughts in my attempts to help in your personal situation.
I just could not stand aside and watch over how others, as in the quotes above, are sending you into a confrontational encounter with your husband. In my view, this is the last thing you need to do if you want the relation ship to move a degree forward.
Consider the following facts of life:
1. You cannot change anyone else but yourself.
Anyone else has to change him/herself. If you force them you would lose them he is gone half way already.
2. Any religion you choose to bring on as a topic will be inappropriate.
This is because you do not have a common language any more. This is his strong point and you will lose if you engage in battle - even if you win all the arguments you will lose him. He most likely knows his weak points and will guard them the easiest way, it seems to be, is to distance himself.
3. All confrontational approaches will have exactly the same effect on your husband as my confrontational approaches must have affected you during our interactions on FFI.
This is due to adopting a confrontational attitude.
Remedy:
I would advise you to speak a common language which both of you spoke all these years ago when there was closer than current intimacy and love between yourselves.
For example, remind him how you loved to be taken by him to a part of your locale which he also loved. Tell him how you still love to go to that place because it makes you feel him closer to you this way, although he is away at the moment.
Tell him about other, common to both of you things, such as pictures, books, music, stories, especially presents (perfumes are a huge memory trigger) which he must have given you over the years.
Stick to things only and avoid mentioning people things cannot hurt him but some people can and since you dont know his world view avoid outsiders at this stage especially immediate relatives on both sides.
The most sensitive part is calling him back to you just assure him that he is always welcomed back when he is ready. Any other form of suggestions could be considered as forms of entrapment by him and reasons for further delays.
However, you would need more that one call to start a love relationship. Think about it did you marry him after the first date? Likewise would he come back to you after one phone call? Love takes far more than that to re-kindle.
Good luck with it.
Let us know how it went.
Wassalam |
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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Brigitte wrote:
| Quote: | | I hate to dissapoint you, but beware of this guy, especially Algerians are actually involved with the fundamental islam, wether they live in Algeria or in the West... |
Iznogoodh wrote:
| Quote: | | The Quran draws a line between "them" and "us" |
Rand wrote:
| Quote: | | People tend to get used to criticism, so over time you can gradually get more critical. No criticism is ineffectiv |
Assalamu Alaikum rainbow,
I hope I am not disturbing your topic by posting my thoughts in my attempts to help in your personal situation.
I just could not stand aside and watch over how others, as in the quotes above, are sending you into a confrontational encounter with your husband. In my view, this is the last thing you need to do if you want the relation ship to move a degree forward.
Consider the following facts of life:
1. You cannot change anyone else but yourself.
Anyone else has to change him/herself. If you force them you would lose them he is gone half way already.
2. Any religion you choose to bring on as a topic will be inappropriate.
This is because you do not have a common language any more. This is his strong point and you will lose if you engage in battle - even if you win all the arguments you will lose him. He most likely knows his weak points and will guard them the easiest way, it seems to be, is to distance himself.
3. All confrontational approaches will have exactly the same effect on your husband as my confrontational approaches must have affected you during our interactions on FFI.
This is due to adopting a confrontational attitude.
Remedy:
I would advise you to speak a common language which both of you spoke all these years ago when there was closer than current intimacy and love between yourselves.
For example, remind him how you loved to be taken by him to a part of your locale which he also loved. Tell him how you still love to go to that place because it makes you feel him closer to you this way, although he is away at the moment.
Tell him about other, common to both of you things, such as pictures, books, music, stories, especially presents (perfumes are a huge memory trigger) which he must have given you over the years.
Stick to things only and avoid mentioning people things cannot hurt him but some people can and since you dont know his world view avoid outsiders at this stage especially immediate relatives on both sides.
The most sensitive part is calling him back to you just assure him that he is always welcomed back when he is ready. Any other form of suggestions could be considered as forms of entrapment by him and reasons for further delays.
However, you would need more that one call to start a love relationship. Think about it did you marry him after the first date? Likewise would he come back to you after one phone call? Love takes far more than that to re-kindle.
Good luck with it.
Let us know how it went.
Wassalam |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:54 am Post subject: |
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Rainbow wrote:
| Quote: | | He has in the last 5 years or so become a very pious muslim, spending most of his time in the mosque and has done the Hadj. He did express his outrage at the 9/11 bombings, and he used to get upset about terrorism. His response was; 'this is not islam!'. I don't know if that has changed in the past few years. Anyway, how can I begin to bring up this subject with him and hopefully - maybe? - get him to review Islam for what it is? What should be my opening sentences? |
Dear Rainbow,
The violence argument is a difficult one. If you convince him that Islam is violent, then he must choose ethics or Islam. If he chooses islam, you now got a violent muslim on your hands.
A variation on this argument is the argument regarding hell. You can explain the views of your friend. This friend confided in you regarding hell (so you cannot reveal her name). She is a very nice woman, and asked me to help her with this question. You asked your ex-husband because he is very learned about Islam.
Hell is mentioned 97 times in the quran.
| Quote: | | [9.68] Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them; and Allah has cursed them and they shall have lasting punishment. |
| Quote: | | [4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. |
My friend is a forgiving person, she does not like to hurt anyone. She hates to see suffering. She asked if I had a loved one who did not believe in Islam, would I think he should eternally burn in hell? She then mentioned, if I said no then I am a hypocrite for believing in Islam, but disagreeing with 9:68. I did not know what to answer her.
She further asked: Suppose a person clams to be a muslim and follows the pillars of Islam. However, this person is a compassionate person and does not believe that any one should go to hell. He pretends to believe in 9.68, but he really does not. Is this person a hypocrite? Does this person deserve hell? What do I tell her?
Best regards,
Rand |
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Medi Terraneus
Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 291
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| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| rainbow wrote: | Thank you Brigitte, Rand and Iznogood,
Rand, My ex and I have been on good terms for 10 years. We are both happily re-married yet we have always had a good telephone relationship where we used to discuss all kinds of things. In the past few years I have noticed he seems to be distancing himself from me, which I think is a bit sad when you have known someone for so long. My inkling is that it has to do with him becoming more 'moslem'. Last time we spoke he was urging me to go on the Hadj, and do the Ramadan etc. I know I have to take a very careful, sensitive approach, like you said; to start small.
But he has not phoned me, as per my request. So I am beginning to suspect he may be turning more insular
If he does phone, I'll just ask a few questions and see how that goes. I'll keep you posted, if interested.
Thanks again,
Rainbow |
Dear Rainbow,
It's just normal that friends converge and diverge throughout time.
Relationships are not always as active and close as we would wish/expect them to be. They have their own 'biological' process. I find forcing or inversing this process counter-productive.
If you care for him, what should matter to you is whether he is happy or not in his life and respect his decisions. After all he has his own family now and you have yours.
_________________
When somebody tells me that I am too old to do something, I rush to do it.
(Pablo Picasso) |
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