Faith Freedom International

[atheist]

Debate on rationalism between Ali Sina, James Randi, Brent Meeker and Aparthib Zaman


Might take your interest:

http://www.mukto-mona.com/Special_Event_/rationalist_day/rationalist_debate.htm
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[marky]

I have always found science to be dogmatic and arrogant.

Scientists tell us that science explains how the universe works. I disagree, in my opinion science models how the universe works: One cannot really know how it works.

When the models are found to be invalid, new models are derived and tested either before, at the same time, or later. Some cannot be directly verified.

Experiments have been done on ESP and remote viewing (for example). Science does not recognise either of these things because it does not have a model for either.

But ...
(1) Both have been proved beyond any statistical doubt that an effect exists, and,
(2) Science has no idea how that effect operates.

My point is that science does not generally have the courage to venture into areas like this and change its dogma, just like some religions will not evolve in order to change their dogma's.

I find religion and science to both be lacking. Since creation is singular, then scientific methods should be developed in order to model consciousness, thought etc. With this, religion and science may start to merge together.

P.S. I have a Physics degree so I know enough to know that I don't know enough !
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The Buddah say, "With your mind you make the World".

[yeezevee]

greetings and good wishes from yeezevee dear marky.. I am not very certian that your statement of

[marky]

I see Science as being dogmatic in the sense that it is loathe to explore in certain directions, and it likes to stick with its existing "profile".

Perhaps off the remit of this board, but ...
(1) Some people have PSI abilities
(2) Some people have seen / observed UFOs / met ETs

Science does not attempt to (openly) model / explain any of this, only explain it away. I do see parallels here between science and religion. Possible new truths that could expand the old truths are not explored, and humanity loses because of this.

I see a possible reason for the wish not to change as fear. But not normal fear: Racing a car at 200mph, base jumping and pulling the cute at the last minute create fear but people do these things easily. Fear of changing belief or "consensus reality", that is what I am alluding to.

It is easier to deny something than to face it or explain it.
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The Buddah say, "With your mind you make the World".

[Steven Luotto]

Hi Yezeevee and Marky and greetings from Prague!

Science does not deny ESP or UFOS per se... it just asks for proof. Many in the ESP / UFO camp want to do away with that annoyance!

I read somewhere that there's a pile of money, like a million UK £ waiting for anyone who can move a matchstick or bend a fork with mind alone... just as long as he does it in front of a committee of scientists and professional magicians (who know all the tricks).

Needless to say, that money's been sitting there accruing interest for years. No takers.

Will Rogers quipped: "Trust everybody, but cut the cards!" That's about as gracious as science can get when asked to embrace the paranormal.

Science is open to everything. In fact it's so neutral that it doesn't know the difference between good and evil... Lately it's been creating all kinds of havoc that will require the parental guidance of theologians to sort out. Genetic engineering, rented uteruses, cloned sheep (and eventually soldiers)... nanotechnology...

Science is believed so dogmatically, because it works and has made "miracles" commonplace...

It's useless to try to pit science against the "irrational" ways of knowing. A method that could reinvent its foundations as science did when it moved from Newton to Einstein is not an enemy of the irrational... The only difference is that science is not irrationally afraid of what it doesn't know... it's irrationally preoccupied!

But science herself tells us that there are situations in which scrutiny (or measurement) of a phenomenon will change that very self-same phenomenon... So there you have science admitting that looking is meddling!

(Anybody who dances with eyes closed already knew that).

Anyway...

Science is knowledge, painstakingly accrued knowledge... much of it stolen from thin air as serendipitous intuition... but then proven... put to the test, with brutal, non-partisan honesty. Poets, and jazz musicians are allowed to indulge in their intuitions and play out their moods... but scientists are called to battle their own hopes!

Science describes what we feel with such detachment that we become suspicious of our own humanity. (Not always a bad idea, but is it a way to live inside a body?!)

Minds and hearts are shafted apart and we see that what has contributed most to humanity - Science - is pure, cool-headed abstract amoral thinking.

Jesus Christ stopped an angry mob by exhorting: "He who is without sin, cast the first stone!"

Maybe that summons to stop and think as opposed to feeling righteous indignation or "pious closure," (or some bullshit emotion) contributed a great deal to the birth of science... That's my hunch... But is it true?

Science is the closest thing we have to a universally acceptable truth system... so why ruin it with reports of UFO landings in Sasketchwan and she-devils in Moravian Pubs... circular harvests in Welsh Barley fields?

Anyway...

My suggestion concerning Spinoza's worry about the old Sikh and Hindu disunity thread is 1) right now FFI has bigger problems to worry about... like finding a way to make all the old posts, written with so much love and intention, live and available, even better than the old days...

I enjoyed wading through the threads... and who says old debates can't be revived. Old friends could meet that way even after 5 years. Mohammad Faraz old buddy! I'm still furious!

We do not chuck FFI's nuggets, the tesserae that have made it one of the world's most amazing sites, into the dustheap. Why not? Because this is the computer age... storage and retrieval of the scribblings of a few thousand graphomaniacs shouldn't be a problem when Enyclopedia Britannicas cane be burped 20 volumes at a time by smarter-than-Kasparvov PC's!

2) If Hindus post more than others, more power to them... If they like to plunge into bickering and mud-slinging... so what? Love it, hate it, but keep it! Moderators should be busy looking elsewhere most of the time... In a happening place, things must be allowed to get outrageous, before outside intervention is required. Wanting to control the heat and sift the dross is fine, but this being a site dedicated to religious / cultural debate... there are bound to be groups and people bumping hard into each other as they walk their straight and narrow lines. I never once felt oppressed by Sikh or Hindu debate... or rather... when I felt oppressed by a vulgar exchange, I clicked a mouse button to hyper-text away... so where's the problem? Where's the oppression?

My God, it's past 2 AM. Prague is a magnificent old town. Today we shot 19th Century Liverpool in Nové Mesto arrondissment... (Liverpool!... well a mad Italian Art Director's conception further reduced by a shoe string budget version of Liverpool... But the costumes were fine... and we had 5 carriages... and we certainly had English weather. When we got to the first take, just as the dialogue was about to begin, the Municipality blew out a minute long air raid style siren... They do that the first Wednesday of every month... part of an emergency system they've created after last years floods. The expression on the soundman's face was priceless...

[agentazure]

Hi Steve,

Nice to see you back. I hope you stick around while make it through the woods with this latest DOS attack.

Agent
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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, you should pause and reflect" Mark Twain

"Critically examine everything, hold on to the good." 1 Thessalonians 5.21

[Abdul Haseem]

Science has always been controlled by Guess whO? that's right, JEWS!!!! As far back as Issiac Newman scientist and father of JEW publisher Alfred E. (Ephrim) Newman all the way up to Albert Ulysies Einstein the Jew that wrote the formula for the nuclear bomb that the United States dropped on an orphanage in Naga Sake and killed almost a billion Japanese children orphaned by Marine war criminals at Siapan. THIS IS FACT YOU CANNOT DENY IT!!!
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By believing passionately in something that still does not exist, we create it. The nonexistent is whatever we have not sufficiently desired.

Franz Kafka***NOT THE JEW ONE***

[Steven Luotto]

Ciao Agent and Abdul!

Let's all stick around... and start creating too many threads again... better problems of abundance than scarcity!

[marky]

To Abdul:

I've never heard of the scientist called "Issiac Newman" before although the name sounds a bit familiar. Einstein's involvement with the bomb was minor, at best. The bomb did kill many people, but it was dropped on a people who at the time were behaving like programmed robots. I don't think it was nice, but it could actually have saved lives: The Japs would probably have committed millions to a fruitless attempt to continue the war, even after it was obviously lost.

Also, scientists come from all over the planet, are of all colours, races, creeds and religions. Just thought you should know.

But, just to cheer you up: Israel produces world leading technologies in the fields of semiconductors, bio-tech, water reclamation, military etc. Not bad for a small country that has existed for about 55 years.
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The Buddah say, "With your mind you make the World".

[atheist]

Debate between Ali Sina, James randi, Aparthib Zaman, Paul Edwards and Meeker:

http://www.mukto-mona.com/Special_Event_/rationalist_day/rationalist_debate.htm#2nd

thanks
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