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CRITICAL Singh
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 377
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 Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:32 pm Post subject: VEDAS : The contraversial sacred Hindu Scriptures... |
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Dear all Hindu friends...
Just curious, as curious I am... I have noticed that whenever someone points, some contradiction in Vedas like Rigveda, Smirities, Ramayana, Mahabharta etc... most of you tend to shrugg off your hands and proclaim that these are not vedas at all... so out of sheer curiosity, I would request my learned Hindu friends, to once and for all to classify here all the Hindu Scriptures, Hindus take inspiration and guidance from. And which of these scriptures have no right to be called Vedas...
I would like you to classify them so that in future, ignorant people like me can quote something from these Vedas or the holy hindu scriptures...
Kindly reply to following questions on Vedas to clear the doubts of ignorant people like me to avoid unnecessary blame games being played around here, based on these vedas...
We can add to the list of questions that you want to ask about Vedas...
1. What are Vedas ? Definition etc.
2. Kindly name all of them... with names of thier writers and the period when they were written... also define each one of them for what they represent...?
3. From above scriptures, from which scriptures Hindus basically take inspiration from ?
4. What are Upnishidas ? Do they form part of Vedas ? Who is the writer & period of writing ?
5. Is Manu Smirit part of Hindu Vedas ? If yes then why, if no then why its still here to mislead people ? What is the period of writing ?
6. Is Mahabharata part of Hindu Vedas ? If yes then why, if no then why its still here to mislead people ? Who is the writer & period of writing ? I reckon that Mahabharta has been written by different writrs... please name each and everybody. Which one do you consider to acceptable, why and why not ?
7. Is Ramayana part of Hindu Vedas ? If yes then why, if no then why its still here to mislead people ? I reckon that Ramayana too has been written by different writrs... please name each and everybody. Which one do you consider to be acceptable, why yes and why not ?
8. What is Rigveda ? Who is the writer & period of writing ? Has Rigveda too written by different writers ? Please name each and everybody... Which one do you consider to be acceptable, why yes and why not ?
9. I there is also Ayurveda ? How many of such vedas are there... who is writer and the period of writing ?
10. Do there vedas state anything about Hinduism ? Has it been referred to in any of Vedas... ? if yes, then please specify and if no, then how this term Hindu came to being... ?
This is not in anycase an exaustive list of questions on vedas... I would put my questions as they come to my mind... till then please reply to these question in earnest...
Best Regards
Critical Singh
Last edited by CRITICAL Singh on Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BBG
Joined: 24 Aug 2002
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: The VEDAS : the contraversial sacred Hindu scriptures |
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| CRITICAL Singh wrote: | Dear all Hindu friends...
Just curious, as curious I am... I have noticed that whenever someone points, some contradiction in Vedas like Rigveda, Smirities, Ramayana, Mahabharta etc... most of you tend to shrugg off your hands and proclaim that these are not vedas at all... so out of sheer curiosity, I would request my learned Hindu friends, to once and for all to classify here all the Hindu Scriptures, Hindus take inspiration and guidance from. And which of these scriptures have no right to be called Vedas...
I would like you to classify them so that in future, ignorant people like me can quote something from these Vedas or the holy hindu scriptures...
Kindly reply to following questions on Vedas to clear the doubts of ignorant people like me to avoid unnecessary blame games being played around here, based on these vedas...
We can add to the list of questions that you want to ask about Vedas...
1. What are Vedas ? Definition etc.
2. Kindly name all of them... with names of thier writers and the period when they were written... also define each one of them for what they represent...?
3. From above scriptures, from which scriptures Hindus basically take inspiration from ?
4. What are Upnishidas ? Do they form part of Vedas ? Who is the writer & period of writing ?
5. Is Manu Smirit part of Hindu Vedas ? If yes then why, if no then why its still here to mislead people ? What is the period of writing ?
6. Is Mahabharata part of Hindu Vedas ? If yes then why, if no then why its still here to mislead people ? Who is the writer & period of writing ? I reckon that Mahabharta has been written by different writrs... please name each and everybody. Which one do you consider to acceptable, why and why not ?
7. Is Ramayana part of Hindu Vedas ? If yes then why, if no then why its still here to mislead people ? I reckon that Ramayana too has been written by different writrs... please name each and everybody. Which one do you consider to be acceptable, why yes and why not ?
8. What is Rigveda ? Who is the writer & period of writing ? Has Rigveda too written by different writers ? Please name each and everybody... Which one do you consider to be acceptable, why yes and why not ?
9. I there is also Ayurveda ? How many of such vedas are there... who is writer and the period of writing ?
10. Do there vedas state anything about Hinduism ? Has it been referred to in any of Vedas... ? if yes, then please specify and if no, then how this term Hindu came to being... ?
This is not in anycase an exaustive list of questions on vedas... I would put my questions as they come to my mind... till then please reply to these question in earnest...
Best Regards
Critical Singh |
Dear Critical singh,
Check the following links if you are really interested in finding the truth:
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism_scripts.htm
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduintrod.htm
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduintrod3.htm
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduintrod2.htm
Best regards,
BBG |
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CRITICAL Singh
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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Dear BBG
I am afraid that I have no time to read all these sacred scriptures due to lack of inspiration...
And you reply does not reply to many of my questions asked above... Anywayz, I will continue...
| Quote: | What Vedas have to say to my following question... ?
If I am of shudra varna and claim that I have read and understand all the Vedas and so now I want to become join Brahmin Varna or become a Priest in a Temple?
Can I do it ?
Where it is mentioned in Vedas ?
Please provide reference... |
Best Regards
Critical Singh |
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BBG
Joined: 24 Aug 2002
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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CRITICAL Singh Wrote:
| Quote: | | I am afraid that I have no time to read all these sacred scriptures due to lack of inspiration... |
Dear Critical Singh,
No problem with that. You asked for a link to hindu religious texts that is why i provided you with those links. Anyway no problem.
| Quote: | | And you reply does not reply to many of my questions asked above... |
I am sorry but you will get your answers only if you go through those sites
since your questions are very broad and can not be answered here simply. You must understand that hinduism is a very complex religion.
| Quote: | Anywayz, I will continue...
What Vedas have to say to my following question... ?
If I am of shudra varna and claim that I have read and understand all the Vedas and so now I want to become join Brahmin Varna or become a Priest in a Temple?
Can I do it ?
Where it is mentioned in Vedas ?
Please provide reference... |
Although i hate to do that but this time i will have to question you back.
Where does Vedas say that a shurdra can not read them and only those who have read vedas are Brahmins?
Please provide me with a reference from Vedas then i will provide an answer to your question.
Best regards,
BBG |
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thinklogic
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Posts: 611
Location: India
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Just curious, as curious I am... |
| Quote: | | Kindly reply to following questions on Vedas to clear the doubts of ignorant people like me ... |
| Quote: | | I am afraid that I have no time to read all these sacred scriptures due to lack of inspiration... |
Hmmm... so even your so called curiosity fails to inspire you, eh? You also seem to have ignored the links that I provided in another thread. 
Anyway, you want some brief bullet-point answers, so here goes...
| Quote: | | 1. What are Vedas ? Definition etc. |
Ancient scriptures describing various hymns, incantations, rituals, philosophical thoughts, inquiries into the nature and origin of reality etc.
| Quote: | | 2. Kindly name all of them... with names of thier writers and the period when they were written... also define each one of them for what they represent...? |
They are supposed to be divine in origin, however they were compiled together by Vyasa. There are four of them, Rigveda, Yajurveda, Samaveda and Atharvaveda.
| Quote: | | 3. From above scriptures, from which scriptures Hindus basically take inspiration from ? |
Ancient ones are Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharat, Puranas etc. Later ones are the schools of Nyaya-Vaisheshika, Sankhya-Yoga, Purva-Uttara Mimansa.
| Quote: | | 4. What are Upnishidas ? Do they form part of Vedas ? Who is the writer & period of writing ? |
Vedas consist of the samhita(mantra), brahmanas, aranyakas and the upanishads. Upanishads are also called vedanta.
| Quote: | | 5. Is Manu Smirit part of Hindu Vedas ? |
| Quote: | | 6. Is Mahabharata part of Hindu Vedas ? |
| Quote: | | 7. Is Ramayana part of Hindu Vedas ? |
No to all three.
| Quote: | | If yes then why, if no then why its still here to mislead people ? |
Because it has already been written and it is not possible to change history and remove its existence. Same reason that works like Shakespeare are still there today.
| Quote: | | Who is the writer & period of writing ? I reckon that Mahabharta has been written by different writrs... please name each and everybody. Which one do you consider to acceptable, why and why not ? |
It is written by Vyasa. The date is supposed to be around 3100 BC. Some say it is 1500 BC.
| Quote: | | I reckon that Ramayana too has been written by different writrs... please name each and everybody. Which one do you consider to be acceptable, why yes and why not ? |
It has been written by Valmiki. Time period supposed to be earlier than Mahabharata.
| Quote: | | 8. What is Rigveda ? |
One of the four vedas. See above.
| Quote: | | 9. I there is also Ayurveda? |
It is a system of medicine analogous to homoeopathy.
| Quote: | 10. Do there vedas state anything about Hinduism ? Has it been
referred to in any of Vedas... ? if yes, then please specify and if no, then how this term Hindu came to being... ? |
No, Hindu as a word didnt exist during those times. It comes from the word Sindhu and is a name given by foreigners to describe people living to the east of the river Sindhu.
_________________
Think like a child... keep an open mind. |
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CRITICAL Singh
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| BBG wrote: | Although i hate to do that but this time i will have to question you back.
Where does Vedas say that a shurdra can not read them and only those who have read vedas are Brahmins?
Please provide me with a reference from Vedas then i will provide an answer to your question.
Best regards,
BBG |
Dear BBG
Let me simplify the question for your benefit... 
 I am a Shudra, How can I become a Brahmin ?
Best Regards
Critical Singh |
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BBG
Joined: 24 Aug 2002
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| CRITICAL Singh wrote: | | BBG wrote: | Although i hate to do that but this time i will have to question you back.
Where does Vedas say that a shurdra can not read them and only those who have read vedas are Brahmins?
Please provide me with a reference from Vedas then i will provide an answer to your question.
Best regards,
BBG |
Dear BBG
Let me simplify the question for your benefit... :)
:arrow: I am a Shudra, How can I become a Brahmin ?
Best Regards
Critical Singh |
Dear Critical Singh,
So you can not provide me with any refernce from Vedas which says that a shudra can not read them and to hide this, you are changing your question. (By the way, what is there to smile in this.) Still let me answer your question.
Vedas say there are four types of people in this world, Brahmins, Kashtriyas, Vaishs and Shudras who have different aptitudes of gaining knowledge, fighting and defending people, growing and distributing goods and servicing the needs of the society respectively. So if you are born with an aptitude of servicing the needs of the society, you can probably not have the aptitude to gain knowledge and thus become a brahmin. However if you later on develop the aptitude to gain knowledge and want ot become a brahmin, you can become one by indulging in the pursuits of knowledge. There was no rigidity to begin with. There are numerous examples in the long history of hinduism where people who were born in brahmin, khastriya, vaish or shudra families, later on adopted other professions. Both Ved Vyas who wrote Mahabharat and Balmiki who wrote Ramayan were born shudras but by indulging in gaining and spreading knowledge became brahmins and are considered to be highly respected sages by hindus. Dronacharya and Purshuram who were born brahmins later on undertook the professions of Kashtriyas. Vishwamitra who was a kashtriya and a king to begin with later on became a brahmin, a highly respected rishi.
It is clearly stated in many hindu texts that gunas or inborn aptitude is the one and only criteria to determine the caste of a person.
So even if you are a born shudra, start gaining and spreading knowledge and you will become a brahmin.
Best regards,
BBG |
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CRITICAL Singh
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| thinklogic wrote: |
| Quote: | | 5. Is Manu Smirit part of Hindu Vedas ? |
| Quote: | | 6. Is Mahabharata part of Hindu Vedas ? |
| Quote: | | 7. Is Ramayana part of Hindu Vedas ? |
No to all three.
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Dear BBG,
I think you should have no problem with smiling...
thinklogic states that manu-smriti does not comprise of vedas... then why the system defined in this smriti is followed at first place ? I wonder...
Best Regards
Critical Singh |
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BBG
Joined: 24 Aug 2002
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| CRITICAL Singh wrote: | | thinklogic wrote: |
| Quote: | | 5. Is Manu Smirit part of Hindu Vedas ? |
| Quote: | | 6. Is Mahabharata part of Hindu Vedas ? |
| Quote: | | 7. Is Ramayana part of Hindu Vedas ? |
No to all three.
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Dear BBG,
I think you should have no problem with smiling... :)
thinklogic states that manu-smriti does not comprise of vedas... then why the system defined in this smriti is followed at first place ? I wonder...
Best Regards
Critical Singh |
Dear Critical Singh,
I do not have any problem with smiling but i wonder why anybody would smile amidst a serious discussion.
Thinklogic is right, Manu Samriti does not comprise Vedas but i don't know why you have not been able to understand this simple point in spite of being told so many times, by me and Thinklogic or may be you are delibrately feigning ignorance to confuse others.
Manu Samriti and laws described therein were meant only for a particular time, a very distant past. They were never meant to be followed by all the people for all the times to come. The Samriti itself never says so and no body in hinduism can force anybody to do that.
But I don't think you will be able to understand this subtle point as you people are so obsessed with one book for all the times to come.
Best regards,
BBG |
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CRITICAL Singh
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| BBG wrote: | Dear Critical Singh,
I do not have any problem with smiling but i wonder why anybody would smile amidst a serious discussion.
Thinklogic is right, Manu Samriti does not comprise Vedas but i don't know why you have not been able to understand this simple point in spite of being told so many times, by me and Thinklogic or may be you are delibrately feigning ignorance to confuse others.
Manu Samriti and laws described therein were meant only for a particular time, a very distant past. They were never meant to be followed by all the people for all the times to come. The Samriti itself never says so and no body in hinduism can force anybody to do that.
But I don't think you will be able to understand this subtle point as you people are so obsessed with one book for all the times to come.
Best regards,
BBG |
Sat Sri Akal BBG
I am serious and I was not laughing out loud, I was just smiling... and no body is getting confused... I just want to make things a little bit clearer for everybody... I hope you all dont mind... thanx for your co-operation...
So, you and thinklogic proclaim that Manu-Samriti do not form part of Vedas... and the system it defines is therefore obsolete... thats interesing...
Ok... then What about Rig-Veda ? Does this scripture form part of Vedas or not...? thinklogic say it forms the part of Vedas... I hope BBG agrees... then Rig-vedas should have nothing do with manu-smirities... Do you agree on this part or not... ?
GurFateh
Critical Singh |
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BBG
Joined: 24 Aug 2002
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:13 am Post subject: |
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Critical Singh Wrote:
Dear Critical Singh,
Sat Sri Akal,
| Quote: | | I am serious and I was not laughing out loud, I was just smiling... and no body is getting confused... I just want to make things a little bit clearer for everybody... I hope you all dont mind... thanx for your co-operation... |
Thanks for telling that you was serious. You want to make things a little bit clearer for everybody! Amazing!! By constantly confusing between Vedas and Manu Samriti! OK, OK i at least don't mind your lack of knowledge.
| Quote: | So, you and thinklogic proclaim that Manu-Samriti do not form part of Vedas... and the system it defines is therefore obsolete... thats interesing...
Ok... then What about Rig-Veda ? Does this scripture form part of Vedas or not...? thinklogic say it forms the part of Vedas... I hope BBG agrees... then Rig-vedas should have nothing do with manu-smirities... Do you agree on this part or not... ? |
So you are at it again. As Thinklogic has already told in his previous post to you Rig Veda is one of the four vedas and yes, it has nothing to do with Manu Samriti as it was written much before it. Hope the difference is now clear to you, at last.
Gur Fateh,
Best regards,
BBG |
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CRITICAL Singh
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:27 am Post subject: |
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********* Edited ***********
Last edited by CRITICAL Singh on Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CRITICAL Singh
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| BBG wrote: |
Thanks for telling that you was serious. You want to make things a little bit clearer for everybody! Amazing!! By constantly confusing between Vedas and Manu Samriti! OK, OK i at least don't mind your lack of knowledge.
So you are at it again. As Thinklogic has already told in his previous post to you Rig Veda is one of the four vedas and yes, it has nothing to do with Manu Samriti as it was written much before it. Hope the difference is now clear to you, at last.
Best regards,
BBG |
Sat Sri Akal BBG
I have already said I am ignorant... please enlighten me...
You are confusing me again... if Rig-veda has nothing do with obsolete manu-amriti and Rig-Veda was written much before manu wrote his smrities then why Rig-Veda constantly referes to Manu... How is it possible... ? 
Which Manu, Rig-veda is referring in the following Hymn...
| Quote: |
RIG VEDA - BOOK THE FIRST
HYMN XIII. Agni
1 AGNI, well-kindled, bring the Gods for him who offers holy gifts. Worship them, Purifier, Priest.
2 Son of Thyself, present, O Sage, our sacrifice to the Gods today. Sweet to the taste, that they may feast.
3 Dear Narasamsa, sweet of tongue, the giver of oblations, I Invoke to this our sacrifice.
4 Agni, on thy most easy car, glorified, hither bring the Gods: Manu appointed thee as Priest.
5 Strew, O ye wise, the sacred grass that drips with oil, in order due, Where the Immortal is beheld.
6 Thrown open be the Doors Divine, unfailing, that assist the rite, For sacrifice this day and now.
7 I call the lovely Night and Dawn to seat them on the holy grass At this our solemn sacrifice.
8 The two Invokers I invite, the wise, divine and sweet of tongue, To celebrate this our sacrifice.
9 Ila, Sarasvati, Mahi, three Goddesses who bring delight, Be seated, peaceful, on the grass.
10 Tvastar I call, the earliest born, the wearer of all forms at will: May he be ours and curs alone.
11 God, Sovran of the Wood, present this our oblation to the Gods, And let the giver be renowned.
12 With Svaha. pay the sacrifice to Indra in the offerer's house: Thither I call the Deities. |
Manu has been mentioned scores of times in Rig-Veda... So, my next questions are::
- Who is Manu ?
- Is Manu more than one person ?
Chardi Kala
Critical Singh |
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Unknown 440
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:28 pm Post subject: Manusmrithi -- Flogging a dead horse |
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Critical Singh is going to great lengths to show the faults in the manusmrithi. This is equivalent to flogging a dead horse. The following are the reasons I say so.
(1) The manusmrithi as a book is defunct for all practical purposes. I am willing to bet that if you interview a 1000 hindus, not one would have read the manusmrithi in India and lived his life according to that.
(2) The lives of hindus is not a slave to any book. Even the vedas. No one reads the vedas to decide what to do everyday. In this sense it is very different from christianity and Islam. And the best part is there is no conflict in a Hindu's heard for not sticking to a book.
(3) The current social problems in india have a complext history and manusmrithi played a part. At this point, the only thing that can be said is that man is vile and will use anything he can get to stomp on others. Manusmrithi is hardly ever quoted to justify any injustice.
(4) It is virtually impossible to go to a bookstore in India and buy a copy of the manusmrithi. Once again this proves that it is mostly dead as a code of living.
(5) Manusmrithi is not considered the be-all and end-all. Infact there is a concept of a yuga-smrithi. Meaning, different code of conducts for different yugas.
(6) Fundamentally, Hinduism says "stop arguing about books, start the practicals and learn for yourself". Do you have the courage and conviction to embark on that path or are you going to endlessly flog dead horses to pretend to be an intellectual? This is the question. It has been said by none other than Ramana Maharishi.
(7) Vedas, books, etc., is for the person who is not questioning his existence. Once you begin questioninig, arguing about opinions of others is futile. Experiment with life and find out the truth for yourself. This is the main message in Hinduism. It doesn't say, I have the trugh and you can never get it.
( Read the pdfs at www.ramana-maharishi.org |
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Chanakya
Joined: 27 Dec 2002
Posts: 2637
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The manusmrithi as a book is defunct for all practical purposes. I am willing to bet that if you interview a 1000 hindus, not one would have read the manusmrithi in India and lived his life according to that. |
Even now the lower castes hindus are discriminated aganist by upper class hindus..
The caste system is very much alive and functioning.
Nothing is defunct..manusmirithi is very much alive.. |
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CRITICAL Singh
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: Manusmrithi -- Flogging a dead horse |
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Sat Sri Akal grrr (funny name)
| grrr wrote: |
Critical Singh is going to great lengths to show the faults in the manusmrithi. This is equivalent to flogging a dead horse. The following are the reasons I say so. |
Hey ! thanx for reminding me that I really do appreciate that...  Ah! but you sound utterly familiar... I really wonder... 
| Quote: | | (1) The manusmrithi as a book is defunct for all practical purposes. I am willing to bet that if you interview a 1000 hindus, not one would have read the manusmrithi in India and lived his life according to that. |
You are talking about 1000 hindus... I am talking about 700 milliion lower-caste Hindus, who never had the fortune of reading or writing anything and who have lived their lives according to terms dictated by dear Manu for centuries... and then we talk about the Reservation Act, 1994 for Schedules castes and Scheduled Tribes... to me this book seems to be functional...
| Quote: | | (2) The lives of hindus is not a slave to any book. Even the vedas. No one reads the vedas to decide what to do everyday. In this sense it is very different from christianity and Islam. And the best part is there is no conflict in a Hindu's heard for not sticking to a book. |
Are you sure that no one reads the vedas to decide what to do everyday... very funny... Hinduism in its present form is in no-sense different from Islam... who states that non-believer are kafirs and should be eliminated or condemned... Similarly, in Hinduism, who are not born to a Brahmin family should be condemned to be lower caste dalits... as good as being dead... makes no difference to me... ? Does it... ?
| Quote: | | (3) The current social problems in india have a complext history and manusmrithi played a part. At this point, the only thing that can be said is that man is vile and will use anything he can get to stomp on others. Manusmrithi is hardly ever quoted to justify any injustice. |
In-justice and Manusmirit seem to be Synonyms in Hinduism... there is nothing to justify at all, so how can it ever be quoted to justify an injustice... ?
| Quote: | | (4) It is virtually impossible to go to a bookstore in India and buy a copy of the manusmrithi. Once again this proves that it is mostly dead as a code of living. |
No!! this proves that Brahmins, who even today contine to have their say, in general... have deliberatedly made this scripture unavailble in the market, so as to avoid misery/shame, when common lower caste dalits would read this crap and would seek revenge... very clever... and with its restricted circulation, dalits would never come know of this consipiracy... very clever... but Truth will speak out for sure... rest assured...
| Quote: | | (5) Manusmrithi is not considered the be-all and end-all. Infact there is a concept of a yuga-smrithi. Meaning, different code of conducts for different yugas. |
When is Manusmriti's term ending...? Has this been mentioned anywhere in vedas...? What is the new code of conduct you are bragging about...? Has it been mentioned somewhere in vedas... please provide references...
| Quote: | | (6) Fundamentally, Hinduism says "stop arguing about books, start the practicals and learn for yourself". |
Well, suddenly you seem to be talking in terms of Sikhism... Sikhism is all about being practical and using common sense...
| Quote: | | Do you have the courage and conviction to embark on that path or are you going to endlessly flog dead horses to pretend to be an intellectual? This is the question. It has been said by none other than Ramana Maharishi. |
Did I claim anywhere that I am an intellectual... please quote... ? Whats are practicals in your eyes...? What is your concept of learning...?
| Quote: | | (7) Vedas, books, etc., is for the person who is not questioning his existence. Once you begin questioninig, arguing about opinions of others is futile. Experiment with life and find out the truth for yourself. This is the main message in Hinduism. It doesn't say, I have the truth and you can never get it. |
Now as you can see... I do question everything, coz I am a Sikh... coz I am seeker of Truth... so I have the right to know, what is not apprent to my little intellect... its not at all futile... yeah thats what I am doing... experimenting with life to find out the Truth...
And thats nice to learn from you that the main message of Hinduism... But then why it is not apprent to 700 milliion lower-caste Hindus... who continue to suffer a low life... In reality Hinduism has been preached like this :--> I am Brahmin... I am the Truth... you are low caste... you can never get to Truth... so be my slave... and continue to serve me and suffer all your life... Pathetic I would like to add...
Chardi Kala
Critical Singh |
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BBG
Joined: 24 Aug 2002
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| CRITICAL Singh wrote: | | BBG wrote: |
Thanks for telling that you was serious. You want to make things a little bit clearer for everybody! Amazing!! By constantly confusing between Vedas and Manu Samriti! OK, OK i at least don't mind your lack of knowledge.
So you are at it again. As Thinklogic has already told in his previous post to you Rig Veda is one of the four vedas and yes, it has nothing to do with Manu Samriti as it was written much before it. Hope the difference is now clear to you, at last.
Best regards,
BBG |
Sat Sri Akal BBG
I have already said I am ignorant... please enlighten me... :)
You are confusing me again... if Rig-veda has nothing do with obsolete manu-amriti and Rig-Veda was written much before manu wrote his smrities then why Rig-Veda constantly referes to Manu... How is it possible... ? :o
Which Manu, Rig-veda is referring in the following Hymn...
| Quote: |
RIG VEDA - BOOK THE FIRST
HYMN XIII. Agni
1 AGNI, well-kindled, bring the Gods for him who offers holy gifts. Worship them, Purifier, Priest.
2 Son of Thyself, present, O Sage, our sacrifice to the Gods today. Sweet to the taste, that they may feast.
3 Dear Narasamsa, sweet of tongue, the giver of oblations, I Invoke to this our sacrifice.
4 Agni, on thy most easy car, glorified, hither bring the Gods: Manu appointed thee as Priest.
5 Strew, O ye wise, the sacred grass that drips with oil, in order due, Where the Immortal is beheld.
6 Thrown open be the Doors Divine, unfailing, that assist the rite, For sacrifice this day and now.
7 I call the lovely Night and Dawn to seat them on the holy grass At this our solemn sacrifice.
8 The two Invokers I invite, the wise, divine and sweet of tongue, To celebrate this our sacrifice.
9 Ila, Sarasvati, Mahi, three Goddesses who bring delight, Be seated, peaceful, on the grass.
10 Tvastar I call, the earliest born, the wearer of all forms at will: May he be ours and curs alone.
11 God, Sovran of the Wood, present this our oblation to the Gods, And let the giver be renowned.
12 With Svaha. pay the sacrifice to Indra in the offerer's house: Thither I call the Deities. |
Manu has been mentioned scores of times in Rig-Veda... So, my next questions are::
- Who is Manu ?
- Is Manu more than one person ?
Chardi Kala
Critical Singh |
Dear Critical Singh,
Who told you that Manu Samriti was written by Manu? Manu Samriti is a book in which various laws as given by Manu, the first man according to hindu religion, are described. The book was later compiled by other people based on the laws given by Manu. So the Manu you are referring to as in Rig Veda, Book1, hymn 13, is the same man and yes, is talked about many times in the Vedas because he is considered to be the first man. But the book Manu Samriti was compiled much later and was meant only for a particular time, a very distant past from now and a very distant future from Vedas. Vedas do not deal with human laws while samritis are books which describe human law. If the confusion is still not clear to you, you can go to following sites:
http://www.hindunet.org/scriptures/classification/index.htm
http://www.hindubooks.org/scriptures/manusmriti/ch1/ch1_1_5.html
I did not say Vedas had nothing to do with Manu, i said they have nothing to do with Manu Samriti.
Best regards,
BBG |
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Unknown 440
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You are talking about 1000 hindus... I am talking about 700 milliion lower-caste Hindus, who never had the fortune of reading or writing anything and who have lived their lives according to terms dictated by dear Manu for centuries... and then we talk about the Reservation Act, 1994 for Schedules castes and Scheduled Tribes... to me this book seems to be functional... |
GRRR: You are missing the point. What I am saying is this. Today, hardly any hindu is taught the manusmrithi as a book to be learnt or studied like the bible, quran, or whatever other religious books you want to quote. This is a fact. The effect of manusmrithi from a historical perspective and its current religious value are two different things. I assert that today the manusmrithi is a dead document wrt code of conduct because
(1) Hardly any hindu treats the manusmrithi like christians treat the bible or muslims treat the quran or sikhs treat the guru granth.
(2) Hardly any hindu is taught the manusmrithi in the house on in a temple
(3) Hardly any hindu can quote five verses from the manusmrithi
(4) Hardly anyone quotes the manusmirhit to justify an act
All the 4 above mentioned things mean only one thing to me. The manusmrithi is a dead document. It exists as a historical fact but its impact is more through tradition and it as a book is dead and its validity as a religious scripture is almost nil to the vast majority of hindus. So, beating up the manusmrithi is akin to flogging a dead horse. In fact I am willing to bet that you will have a tough time to find five hindus who can quote five verses from the manusmrithi. Take up this challenge and post back to this group after you succeed. Do you dare to take up this challenge?
I assert that you will fail. This shows that it is a dead document. This is a fact and you would know that if you lived in india and had any hindu friends. How many of them have read the manusmrithi? Do they keep it in their temples and treat like muslims, christians and sikhs treat their holy book? NO! All these things show the hindus have moved on. I haven't come across even one hindu who has read the manusmrithi so far. I think this issue is very important because these are all indicators that it is a dead book.
| Quote: | | Are you sure that no one reads the vedas to decide what to do everyday... very funny... Hinduism in its present form is in no-sense different from Islam... who states that non-believer are kafirs and should be eliminated or condemned... Similarly, in Hinduism, who are not born to a Brahmin family should be condemned to be lower caste dalits... as good as being dead... makes no difference to me... ? Does it... ? |
GRRR: No hindu is required to read any religious book. There is no "one" book that defines hinduism. Unlike Sikhism, Islam or Christianity. This is important because it offers an individual to read or not read or follow the advise of a guru or whatever. So I stand by my assertion that hardly anyone reads the vedas to decide what to do everyday. By saying everyone other than a brahmin is a dalit you have showed that you haven't researched the problem enough. The varna system in hinduism is a very broad categorization of people according to their guna (nature) and karma (actions past and present). Based on that there are 4 categories. Today there are probably 4000 castes. This boils down the nature of man to band together and stomp on others. The banding together can be on any basis such as trade, geography, language, culture etc. This gave birth to the castes. A lot of castes are really trade guilds that acquired an identity. This is an indication of where the numerous castes came from. There is no hindu scripture (of any religious value) that mentions anything other than the 4 categories (kshatriya-warrior, vaishya-trader, brahmana-priest, shudra-worker). This is a very broad categorization and there is enough evidence that people moved around between the categories based on thier skill. There are number of kings who were vaishyas, etc. Shakaracharya learned from a chandala etc. A host of alwars in southindia weren't even brahmins but they are worshipped today as great sages! Finally, if you were to remove the brahmins from the equation, there are still countless other castes which look down upon people who they feel are inferior to them. It is the vile nature of humans that is at work here. Prove me otherwise if you can. Show me a hindu religious scripture that lists at least a hundred castes! Do you dare to take up this challenge? Once again, I assert that you will fail. There is no scriptural support for the thousands of castes that exist today. So, to lay the current caste system problem on Manusmrithi is flogging a dead horse.
| Quote: | | In-justice and Manusmirit seem to be Synonyms in Hinduism... there is nothing to justify at all, so how can it ever be quoted to justify an injustice... ? |
GRRR: To you it is because you have to pretend that your dead horse is alive. To a vast majority of Hindus it is not for the simple matter that they haven't even read it. You are resorting rhetorics. This shows you are running low on facts.
| Quote: | | (4) It is virtually impossible to go to a bookstore in India and buy a copy of the manusmrithi. Once again this proves that it is mostly dead as a code of living. |
| Quote: | | No!! this proves that Brahmins, who even today contine to have their say, in general... have deliberatedly made this scripture unavailble in the market, so as to avoid misery/shame, when common lower caste dalits would read this crap and would seek revenge... very clever... and with its restricted circulation, dalits would never come know of this consipiracy... very clever... but Truth will speak out for sure... rest assured... |
GRR: You appear to be a conspiracy theorist. These are people who have already made up their mind about an issue and come up with bizzarre explanations that prove their point. This is like Muslims (Mahathir Mohamed of Malaysia) saying jews invented democracy, communism, to kill Islam. I thought I was discussing with a, rational person here. Not a bigot incapable of reason or intelligent responses!
Dear readers. Please note Critical Singhs reason for why it is hard to find a copy of the manusmrithi in the book stores "The brahmins deliberately made it unavailable in the market". Ah! brahmins own all the printing presses...that's right! Please....I think this shows the extent to which critical singh "seeks truth"! This sort of conspiracy theories are absurdities of the highest order.
| Quote: | | When is Manusmriti's term ending...? Has this been mentioned anywhere in vedas...? What is the new code of conduct you are bragging about...? Has it been mentioned somewhere in vedas... please provide references... |
GRR: Manusmrithi's term ends when people don't give a damn about it. That is the beauty of Hinduism. You don't have to follow a book if you dont' want and no one can do a damn thing about it and force you to do it. There is no "virtue police". Fundamentally it is freedom of thought. As I have already proved, hindus dont' give a damn about the manusmrithi as a religious text. You are the one holding on to it. I didn't brag about anything. You seem to be getting emotional for no reason. Perhaps it is because your dead horse has been proved to be a corpse.
I am reminded of a story here. A sage a few of his disciples are walking along and come to a river bank. They are about to cross the river when a pretty woman asks the sage whether he can carry her across the river. The sage picks up the woman, carries her across and the sage and his disciples continue on their way. A couple of days later, the sage finds his disciples in an animated discussion and he comes over and asks. "What are you talking about". A hush falls over the gathering. Finally one student blurts out "We can't believe you touched that woman and carried her across the rive". The sage says, "I have left her on the river bank. You are the one still carrying her!"
Similarly, I have tried to show that the hindus have moved on and don't consider the manusmrithi a text that defines their behavior.
By asking "has it been mentioned in the vedas" you are betraying the inability to "think outside the book". As I have said below. Books is for the intellectually challenged who want to get some prepackaged belief systems (hopefully from a sage who has spent the time figuring out stuff). Once a person starts questioning...the books serve little or no purpose. It is like the curfew for a child. Once he is old enough to figure out the danger of venturing out alone, and knows enough to question it, he is on the way to anubhava (experiential knowledge)
| Quote: | | (6) Fundamentally, Hinduism says "stop arguing about books, start the practicals and learn for yourself". |
| Quote: | | Well, suddenly you seem to be talking in terms of Sikhism... Sikhism is all about being practical and using common sense... |
GRRR: Bigots want to hoard the virtues into "my religion". What hindu religious texts have you read sir. Please list them here? A sikh bigot is no better than an islamic or hindu bigot
| Quote: | | Did I claim anywhere that I am an intellectual... please quote... ? Whats are practicals in your eyes...? What is your concept of learning...? |
GRRR: I am glad that you asked the question. You are a seeker after all. Read what Ramana Maharishi has to say about "books"
Question #23. Is it any use reading books for those who long for release?
All the texts say that in order to gain release one should render the mind quiescent; therefore their conclusive teaching is that the mind should be rendered quiescent; once this has been understood there is no need for endless reading. In order to quieten the mind one has only to inquire within oneself what one’s Self is; how could this search be done in books? One should know one’s Self with one’s own eye of wisdom. The Self is within the five sheaths; but books are outside them. Since the Self has to be inquired into by discarding the five sheaths, it is futile to search for it in books. There will come a time when one will have to forget all that one has learned.
In one stroke, he has relagated ALL BOOKS into the dusty shelves where they belong and invites you to embark on self-discovery! and this man is a revered sage in Hinduism. Hindus didn't beat him to death because he demolished all the books. They loved him! because he showed a way that anyone can follow! he didn't preach any violence and he didnt' talk about caste. Hindus have moved on and are moving on lead by great giants like Ramana Maharishi, Ramakrishna etc., while some people still argue about books and absurd conspiracy theories about who has monopoly over the printing press!
read the pdf who-am-I and other downloadable books at http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/
you might also want to read the introduction in the book "Light on Yoga" by BKS Iyengar. This is a fine book on yoga but the introduction to the philosophy of yoga is priceless.
Hindu sages have said over and over again that there is no substitute for anubhava (Experience). Truth is not in books. Books talk about truth and may serve as an inspiration to the seeker but the spiritual truths of the sages have always been gained by penance. There is no instance of a sage in our scripture who memorised books and became great. You only hear of stories of great penance performed by the sages to experience the blissful state that they claimed to have attained.
| Quote: | | [color=darkred]And thats nice to learn from you that the main message of Hinduism... But then why it is not apprent to 700 milliion lower-caste Hindus... who continue to suffer a low life... In reality Hinduism has been preached like this :--> I am Brahmin... I am the Truth... you are low caste... you can never get to Truth... so be my slave... and continue to serve me and suffer all your life... Pathetic I would like to add... |
GRRR: Your concern for the dalits is laudable and it should be discussed. But your preconceptions about hinduim are flawed as I have tried to show. Hinduism never says only brahmins can get the truth. It says that there is a way to perceive the truth for any individual who might care to try one who follows the rules of a seeker after truth is called a brahmin. In fact in the bhagavad gita, Krishna is teaching Arjuna (a kshatriya) what meditation is and how it should be performed and how one can attain the ultimate truths. So, we have a case of lord krishna violating your precious dead horse. Even if you don't believe in the divinity of lord krishna, the fact that bhagavad gita shows this incident means that ANYONE can try and experience the ultimate truths. Sage Viswamitra was a kshatriya who became a great sage by sheer penance. The thing is there is enough examples to show to a careful seeker that these categories are not set at birth. I don't know what you are ranting about? If you are saying that presently India has a social problems with dalit oppression, I will agree with you 100% and discussing it meaningfully might offer some insights. Your absurd ravings like "in reality...." (above) is downright silly and offers no insight into the dalit oppression problem, it may satiate your need for hindu-bashing thats about it.
I will conclude this email by saying the following: HInduism believes in 4 types of people. The philosophers, warriors, traders and workers. People can and will move around these categories based on their nature (guna) and karma (actions). This is true for any society and humanity as a whole. This is the varna system. This is true of present day society as well. There is no mention of other castes in hindu scriptures and smrithi's like manu's are dead books. Anyway a smrithi is not a book that hindus consider inviolable. So, hindus have discared the manu smrithi and moved on to the teachings of people like ramana maharishi. I request you to expand your understanding of hindu sages and yoga philosophy. If you want to debate the hindu religious ideas.
If you are interested in learning more you might want to read the following books.
(1) Vasishta's yoga
(2) The introduction in the book "Light on Yoga" by BKS Iyengar
(3) The three volume exposition of the bhagavad gita by "Ranganathananda swami" of ramakrishna mutt
(4) The PDFs at www.ramana-maharishi.org
(5) Read a bit about advaita vedanta etc.
Hinduism is not an organized religion like christianity, islam or sikhism. There is no one book that defines the philosophy, there is no book that defines how a hindu should behave, there is no one god and no one guru. If you insist on taking one book and beating it to death, you may and hindusim will gladly oblige but you can't claim to have destroyed or proved anything because Hindus have already consigned the book to the crypt. So, stop flogging the dead horse and lets move on to a more worthwhile topic. |
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CRITICAL Singh
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | GRRR: You are missing the point. What I am saying is this. Today, hardly any hindu is taught the manusmrithi as a book to be learnt or studied like the bible, quran, or whatever other religious books you want to quote. This is a fact. The effect of manusmrithi from a historical perspective and its current religious value are two different things. I assert that today the manusmrithi is a dead document wrt code of conduct because
(1) Hardly any hindu treats the manusmrithi like christians treat the bible or muslims treat the quran or sikhs treat the guru granth. |
Do tell us : How do Christians treat the Bible or Muslims treat the Quoran...? and ofcourse how Hindus treat any of their Holy Scriptures?
Sikhs treat SGGS as their spritual Guide... SGGS is not a strict or barbaric code of conduct to be followed by anyone... but a simple practical guide for a truthful living... SGGS defines a truthful way of life...
| Quote: | | (2) Hardly any hindu is taught the manusmrithi in the house on in a temple... |
Well.. Caste based Job Reservation Act, 1994 for Schedules castes and Scheduled Tribes... 75% of Indian Population permanently labeled as Backward Classes and Scheduled in a Charter... well seems to me a modified version of Manu-Samriti to my bigoted intellect...
| Quote: | | (3) Hardly any hindu can quote five verses from the manusmrithi |
What does that prove ? I think 100% of Hindu population can not even recite a single verse from any of Vedas written in divine language, but how does that matter... ? Whatz the fun of being able to recite the Mantras when we do not know meaning of the recitiations...
| Quote: | | (4) Hardly anyone quotes the manusmirhit to justify an act. |
As I already said there is nothing justified in that book to do a justice to anyone... ManuSamriti & Injustice seem to be synonyms...
| Quote: | | All the 4 above mentioned things mean only one thing to me. The manusmrithi is a dead document. It exists as a historical fact but its impact is more through tradition and it as a book is dead and its validity as a religious scripture is almost nil to the vast majority of hindus. So, beating up the manusmrithi is akin to flogging a dead horse. In fact I am willing to bet that you will have a tough time to find five hindus who can quote five verses from the manusmrithi. Take up this challenge and post back to this group after you succeed. Do you dare to take up this challenge? |
What is so daring in this naive challenge...? Hmmmmmmmm... another Challenge ???? dear... you sound utterly familiar... As I said no big deal in remembering these mantras, when you do not know the meaning ? and this is not my point... you fool hardy... the main thing is understanding what is written and use our common sense and judge that whatever is written is it right or wrong... not blindly following whatever is written therein.
| Quote: | | I assert that you will fail. This shows that it is a dead document. This is a fact and you would know that if you lived in india and had any hindu friends. How many of them have read the manusmrithi? Do they keep it in their temples and treat like muslims, christians and sikhs treat their holy book? NO! All these things show the hindus have moved on. I haven't come across even one hindu who has read the manusmrithi so far. I think this issue is very important because these are all indicators that it is a dead book. |
As I said earlier this document is not dead and it is alive and kicking... in a different avtaar aka Caste Reservation Act, 1994... as I said 75% of Indian Population permanently labeled as Backward Classes and Scheduled Caste and Tribes in a Charter... How would you justify it... ?
| Quote: | | GRRR: No hindu is required to read any religious book. There is no "one" book that defines hinduism. Unlike Sikhism, Islam or Christianity. |
Then what is Hinduism, if it does not have a general philosophy to follow... Is Hinduism a religion at all...? then how Hinduism can be a way of life, when it has no general philosophy to follow...? Please define Hinduism...
| Quote: | | This is important because it offers an individual to read or not read or follow the advise of a guru or whatever. So I stand by my assertion that hardly anyone reads the vedas to decide what to do everyday. By saying everyone other than a brahmin is a dalit you have showed that you haven't researched the problem enough. The varna system in hinduism is a very broad categorization of people according to their guna (nature) and karma (actions past and present). Based on that there are 4 categories. Today there are probably 4000 castes. This boils down the nature of man to band together and stomp on others. The banding together can be on any basis such as trade, geography, language, culture etc. This gave birth to the castes. A lot of castes are really trade guilds that acquired an identity. This is an indication of where the numerous castes came from. There is no hindu scripture (of any religious value) that mentions anything other than the 4 categories (kshatriya-warrior, vaishya-trader, brahmana-priest, shudra-worker). This is a very broad categorization and there is enough evidence that people moved around between the categories based on thier skill. There are number of kings who were vaishyas, etc. Shakaracharya learned from a chandala etc. A host of alwars in southindia weren't even brahmins but they are worshipped today as great sages! Finally, if you were to remove the brahmins from the equation, there are still countless other castes which look down upon people who they feel are inferior to them. It is the vile nature of humans that is at work here. Prove me otherwise if you can. Show me a hindu religious scripture that lists at least a hundred castes! Do you dare to take up this challenge? Once again, I assert that you will fail. There is no scriptural support for the thousands of castes that exist today. So, to lay the current caste system problem on Manusmrithi is flogging a dead horse. |
Ho! ho! ho! another naive Challenge ? Ah! on one side of the spectrum you calim that hardly anyone reads the vedas to decide what to do on everyday basis and yet on the other hand you want me to show a Hindu religious scripture that enlists at least a hundred castes...? you are yourself confused... get your act together and decide what you want... I would be happy if Manu Samriti was a dead horse but its alive and kicking... what a pity...
| Quote: | | GRRR: To you it is because you have to pretend that your dead horse is alive. To a vast majority of Hindus it is not for the simple matter that they haven't even read it. You are resorting rhetorics. This shows you are running low on facts. |
Running low on critical facts... very amusing... I am not one of those 700 million illiterate lower caste Hindus, who would bow to your yearnings... I only deal in facts... you all have failed miserable to refute any of my critical theories/allegations on Indian Society, at its present state... Refute any of my posts, and I claim repeatedly... I would be very happy... coz the purpose of my posts is to make you and everybody, realise the harsh realities of Indian culture... in which 700 million Backward and Scheduled Castes have to put up... Facts speak out for themselves... Truth prevails always... If I am lying then let everybody decide for themselves... why are you taking pains on their behalf...? They are not stupid... or you think they are ?
| Quote: | | GRR: You appear to be a conspiracy theorist. These are people who have already made up their mind about an issue and come up with bizzarre explanations that prove their point. This is like Muslims (Mahathir Mohamed of Malaysia) saying jews invented democracy, communism, to kill Islam. I thought I was discussing with a, rational person here. Not a bigot incapable of reason or intelligent responses! |
Bizzarre explanations ? Please specify whereever I have resorted to Falsehood...? I would be glad to acknowledge and amend the shortfall in my bigoted intellect... Define rationality as per your perspective ? Then lets see who is more rational...
| Quote: | | Dear readers. Please note Critical Singhs reason for why it is hard to find a copy of the manusmrithi in the book stores "The brahmins deliberately made it unavailable in the market". Ah! brahmins own all the printing presses...that's right! Please....I think this shows the extent to which critical singh "seeks truth"! This sort of conspiracy theories are absurdities of the highest order. |
Dear readers. I will resort to a simple critical example to prove my claim... Please note that Backward Classes and Scheduled Castes/Scheduled Tribes together constitute 74.5% (750 Millions lower caste Indians) of the Indian population... and when 5% reservation of jobs and educational seats is given for people constituting nearly 75% of the population, nobody raises eyebrows and is it then condemned as casteist? No !! But those who constitute less than 25% (250 million upper caste Indians) grab 75% of power - and then that is supposed to be in the national interest, etc. Brahminst who are 5% (only 50 million) of the population enjoy 50% (conservative approach) representation in the Union Cabinet, in Secretariat positions, in Governors' and Vice-Chancellors' and Ambassadorial jobs, that does not raise even an eyebrow of the so-called casteless society upper caste Indians!
Moreover when vast majority of Indians are illiterate and the education level that they are being provided with is only Primiary level of education and which does not include even include Sanskrit as a language for learning and thence these so called lower caste would hardly ever get a chance to read these crap books... seems to be a very well calculated conspiracy theory to me...
| Quote: | | GRR: Manu-Smrithi's term ends when people don't give a damn about it. That is the beauty of Hinduism. You don't have to follow a book if you dont' want and no one can do a damn thing about it and force you to do it. There is no "virtue police". Fundamentally it is freedom of thought. As I have already proved, hindus dont' give a damn about the manusmrithi as a religious text. You are the one holding on to it. I didn't brag about anything. You seem to be getting emotional for no reason. Perhaps it is because your dead horse has been proved to be a corpse. |
What a pathetic way of beautifying the ugly part of Hinduism and your ignorance!! And oh yeah ! Now there is no need to follow this dead horse because Brahmins used this book for exploiting 75% of Hindu population for more than 3000 years and now that filthy Brahmins apprehend that times have changed and they stand naked (exposed) and people are awakening to realities and times for tolerating such a inhumane injustice to mankind is gone for good and these lower caste Hindu will not spare you Brahmins for their miserably pathetic lives... and now you want to shrugg off your hands... and claim your innocence... very smart... You are a true Brahmin to the core... atleast their is some truthness left in you...
| Quote: | | I am reminded of a story here. A sage a few of his disciples are walking along and come to a river bank. They are about to cross the river when a pretty woman asks the sage whether he can carry her across the river. The sage picks up the woman, carries her across and the sage and his disciples continue on their way. A couple of days later, the sage finds his disciples in an animated discussion and he comes over and asks. "What are you talking about". A hush falls over the gathering. Finally one student blurts out "We can't believe you touched that woman and carried her across the rive". The sage says, "I have left her on the river bank. You are the one still carrying her!" |
Dear grrrrrrrr, you amuse me even further by your naive arguement... Do you even know that the sage you are bragging about was Gautam Buddha... who renounced Hinduism some 2700 yrs ago to launch Buddism... and its not a funny story, it is a true fact of filthy human psyche and applicable to everyone.
| Quote: | | Similarly, I have tried to show that the hindus have moved on and don't consider the manusmrithi a text that defines their behavior. |
By asking "has it been mentioned in the vedas" you are betraying the inability to "think outside the book". As I have said below. Books is for the intellectually challenged who want to get some prepackaged belief systems (hopefully from a sage who has spent the time figuring out stuff). Once a person starts questioning...the books serve little or no purpose. It is like the curfew for a child. Once he is old enough to figure out the danger of venturing out alone, and knows enough to question it, he is on the way to anubhava (experiential knowledge).
Very funny... the above statements simply apply to you dear... Dont try to throw back whatever I am saying about you so called Brahmins.
| Quote: | | GRRR: Bigots want to hoard the virtues into "my religion". What hindu religious texts have you read sir. Please list them here? A sikh bigot is no better than an islamic or hindu bigot |
Religion seems to be your personal property as I gather from your own above intellectual statement... when you are always ready to disown Hindu religious texts at the first instance of contradiction... then what can I produce to challenge you ? Critical Singh is Bigoted... Can you tell me where ever I have been prejudiced... please quote... As I have said that we are here to know more about each others faiths and religions... so I would be very happy to know where I have been prejudiced... Please tell me what irks you most about my statements...
| Quote: | | GRRR: I am glad that you asked the question. You are a seeker after all. Read what Ramana Maharishi has to say about "books" |
Very Funny.... I would like to quote below what you just said above...
[quote=grrrrrrrrrrr]"By asking "has it been mentioned in the vedas" you are betraying the inability to "think outside the book". As I have said below. Books is for the intellectually challenged who want to get some prepackaged belief systems (hopefully from a sage who has spent the time figuring out stuff). Once a person starts questioning...the books serve little or no purpose. It is like the curfew for a child. Once he is old enough to figure out the danger of venturing out alone, and knows enough to question it, he is on the way to anubhava (experiential knowledge). "[/quote]
Now, just tell me then why should I read what some Ramana Maharishi has to say? As you said "Books are for the intellectually challenged who want to get some prepackaged belief systems". You are hopelessly confused... You mean to say that I should not question whatever is written in Manu Smriti or for that matter whatever is written in SGGS... but why should I be a blind follower of a faith... As a Sikh we always pose questions to SGGS... cos SGGS is our guide and we seek answers from SGGS... and its like opening your mind filled with ignorance... Its like uncovering the blanket of darkness & ignorance from the eyes of a Child... A human is an ever evolving person and his thinking changes as the times change... so he is never old enough to gain knowledge... Knowledge should be upgraded at every point in our lives... Life is all about evolving... I am glad that Hinduism is atlast trying to evolve... Best of luck to hinduism...
| Quote: | Question #23. Is it any use reading books for those who long for release?
All the texts say that in order to gain release one should render the mind quiescent; therefore their conclusive teaching is that the mind should be rendered quiescent; once this has been understood there is no need for endless reading. In order to quieten the mind one has only to inquire within oneself what one’s Self is; how could this search be done in books? One should know one’s Self with one’s own eye of wisdom. The Self is within the five sheaths; but books are outside them. Since the Self has to be inquired into by discarding the five sheaths, it is futile to search for it in books. There will come a time when one will have to forget all that one has learned.
In one stroke, he has relagated ALL BOOKS into the dusty shelves where they belong and invites you to embark on self-discovery! and this man is a revered sage in Hinduism. Hindus didn't beat him to death because he demolished all the books. They loved him! because he showed a way that anyone can follow! he didn't preach any violence and he didnt' talk about caste. Hindus have moved on and are moving on lead by great giants like Ramana Maharishi, Ramakrishna etc., while some people still argue about books and absurd conspiracy theories about who has monopoly over the printing press!
read the pdf who-am-I and other downloadable books at http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/ |
"Question # 23"... "who-am-I"... and you said that "Asking questions was a futile exercise..." there seems to be a utter mismatch in what you say, and what you do... Get some focus and then come back.
Hey wait, even 'Ramana Maharshi' is contradicting himself... In his answer to Q#23 above... in the first line he says "All the texts says..." now that proves that he has read all the texts himself but quite strangely does not recommend his followers to read them for themselves and decide it for themselves... Strange... huh ???
Actually, you are totally missing the point he is trying to make.. He is saying no need for "endless reading" ie. futile continuous reading of Mantras... he is not claiming to not to read at all... you are missing the point... these Mantras are for internal bliss only... for external bliss you should take action... not that run towards Jungles when the situation demands... Ramana Maharishi is trying to present the crux of all the texts.. not that we should not read them at all... then likewise you mean to suggest that there is no need to provide any education to the lower caste Hindus coz there is nothing in texts to gain anything... Get some focus... you are manipulating simple English to justify your naive statements... and nullying what Ramana has said...
| Quote: | you might also want to read the introduction in the book "Light on Yoga" by BKS Iyengar. This is a fine book on yoga but the introduction to the philosophy of yoga is priceless.
Hindu sages have said over and over again that there is no substitute for anubhava (Experience). Truth is not in books. Books talk about truth and may serve as an inspiration to the seeker but the spiritual truths of the sages have always been gained by penance. There is no instance of a sage in our scripture who memorised books and became great. You only hear of stories of great penance performed by the sages to experience the blissful state that they claimed to have attained. |
You are talking which Hindu sages ? Those sages who instead of guiding the illiterate Hindus in warlike situations of crisis, preferred to seek alliance in Jungles... What anubhava (experience) you are bragging about...? Hiding in Jungles and claiming yourselves to Maharishi etc. or Reciting Mantras to make Muslims blind... Truthful experience is not in running in Jungles or penance... but you have to face the music as well to gain anubhava or experience...
And What do you mean by penance (Voluntary self-punishment in order to atone for some wrongdoing). You mean to say: Do nothing at first place to defend a situation as Maharishis and Brahmins did when Muslims attacked... and then repent over the spilt milk by indulging in penace... you are talking a lame language of loosers...
My statements may seem to you Brahmins as rantings and bigotory but the fact remains that Manu Samriti is alive and kicking... its a harsh fact which you Brahmins can not hide ever...
Chardi Kala
Critical Singh |
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Unknown 440
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Critical Singh(CS), has come up with another conspiracy theory. Lets look at what we have so far.
(1) CS says that there is a conspiracy by brahmins (who in CS's mind must own a monopoly of printing presses and publishing houses) that prevents the manusmrithi from being published
This conspiracy theory is an insult to the reader's intelligence and is akin to the ravings of Mahathir Mohamed who claimed that Jews invented human-rights and communism to kill Islam.
(2) Sanskrit is deliberately not taught so that the dalit won't read the books.
Any normal person not blinded by hindu-hate can see that sanskrit is not taught simply because students aren't clamoring for it which is because sanskrit has lost its relevance (due to various reasons) as a useful language for a person to be successful in the Indian society now.
Incidentally, a lot of languages are slowly dying away and there is no conspiracy to kill them. This is a normal phenomenon not peculiar to sanskrit. Refer the following to begin understanding an aspect of the problem
(1) http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/051699/usn_LA0582.shtml
(2) http://www.seacoastonline.com/2001news/6_20_w1.htm
CS, if you care enough to worry about social problems, you can't hope to find any insights in conspiracy theories because they are delusions that exist in your mind and only you can shed it. I can only give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't really mean what you say. However, if you truly believe in the two conspiracy theories you have put forward, please reiterate it and cofirm it. Or, retract it and no harm is done.
| Quote: | | As I said earlier this document is not dead and it is alive and kicking... in a different avtaar aka Caste Reservation Act, 1994... as I said 75% of Indian Population permanently labeled as Backward Classes and Scheduled Caste and Tribes in a Charter... How would you justify it... ? |
CS has implicitly agreed that the manusmrithi in its original form as a document is defunct. Yet he wants to continue flogging the dead horse. So, he has taken the liberty to christen the caste reservation act of 1994 as the new manusmrithi. I'm sure the reader can see through this chicanery and won't agree to your arrogating the right to re-christen the 1994 act as the new manusmrithi. It serves no purpose other than the fact that CS can continue flogging the dead horse and trash talk hinduism.
The mandal commission report (1994) is not "justifying" castes. It doesn't say "this is why castes should exist". I am not justifying it either. As I have already said, castes exists in India. The only thing I have been saying is that no hindu religious text has categorized the thousands of castes so it is a simple fact that it doesn't have scriptural sanction. It has more to do with people banding together to occupy some social niche. Finally exploiting it for unfair social advantage. The mandal commission is just saying that yes, castes exist and that there is a good correlation between lack of social development and castes and yes caste based reservation can be made.
So, in a nut-shell, there is no "justification" for why castes should exist in this report. This report is a statement of fact about the Indian society as the report writers found it to be and a recommendation for what can be done about it.
I find that the caste based reservation system is a double edged sword. It explicitly forces a person to call out his caste and in that sense reinforces his identity and offers a powerful reason to perpetuate it. In fact there is an anecdote that MGR (CM of Tamil Nadu) had a problem on his hands when different caste representatives demanded proportional reservation. He asked all of them to come on a particular day and present their case. After all the percentages were tallied it came to some ridiculous value like 500% or something. Each caste representative had exaggerated his groups strength to get more reservation. He showed them to be the hypocrites they were. So, this goes to prove once again the nature of humans. They will band together and divide each other into groups to occupy social niches. I think this is inevitable. Recently the Sikhs in UK have started a movement to be not called "Indians" because some of them feel that a separte identity might offer them some advantage as a group. This is how divisions get formed. Similarly the thousands of castes have formed in India over thousands of years. Islam is a case in point, Mahathir Mohamed lamented the various divisions in Islam despite the fact that Islam theoretically recognizes no division. There are dozens of divisions and he names a few. These divisions in Islam have the same "i am better than you" dynamic between them and each one stomps on the other for social niches shia/sunni/ahmadiya/sufi etc all have supreriority/inferiority issues between them. If all these divisions can form in Islam in just 1400 years, ponder how many divisions can form in Hindu society in 5000 years? Once again this is evidence that it is the nature of man to form groups to occupy social niches.
A reservation system that focuses ONLY on caste is plain wrong. This the problem with the mandal commission report. There has to be some economic criteria associated with it. There are dirt poor people in virtually all castes in India. Some rule must be present that says that if your father benefited from the system you can't or if your father is an engineer or doctor the children can't benefit from it etc. This way the benefits spread out to people who really need it. The way it stands now, anyone, regardless of how rich they are get the benefit if they belong to a particular caste. This is a broken model. Anyway...this is a different topic...
| Quote: | | Can you tell me where ever I have been prejudiced... please quote... |
Merriam Webster defines a bigot as "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices"
I think the following quotes are representative of your attitude.
GRRR: Fundamentally, Hinduism says "stop arguing about books, start the practicals and learn for yourself".
CS: Well, suddenly you seem to be talking in terms of Sikhism... Sikhism is all about being practical and using common sense...
Basically, you have arroagted "common sense" to Sikhism if this isn't bigotry I don't know what is especially when the fact is I have shown Ramana Maharishi, a revered hindu saint explicitly saying that books not important and all that they say is one has to render the mind quiet and one has to perform "Self Enquiry". So, dont' read books endlessly, start enquiring about your true self. Yoga philosophy says that, and a lot of other text say that. If you are not interested in researching the issue but just hurl accusations, the readers can see through that.
CS: What a pathetic way of beautifying the ugly part of Hinduism and your ignorance!! And oh yeah ! Now there is no need to follow this dead horse because Brahmins used this book for exploiting 75% of Hindu population for more than 3000 years and now that filthy Brahmins apprehend that times have changed and they stand naked (exposed) and people are awakening to realities and times for tolerating such a inhumane injustice to mankind is gone for good and these lower caste Hindu will not spare you Brahmins for their miserably pathetic lives... and now you want to shrugg off your hands... and claim your innocence... very smart... You are a true Brahmin to the core... atleast their is some truthness left in you...
Epithets such as "filthy brahmins" "you are a true brahmin" deifinitely display extreme prejudice and your final sentence of grudging acceptance that there could some truth left in me is an acceptance that you, without knowing anything about me had pre-judged (prejudiced) that there won't be any truth in me.
So, I have provided evidence of you being a bigot and a prejudiced bigot at that. Readers, can gauge your maturity and civility by reading the nature of your posts and the language you have used, the epithets you have hurled and the prejudice you have spewed. I am sure it will help them assess your credibility and the weight of your arguments in the proper perspective.
At this point, since you have tacitly agreed that the manusmrithi is dead by re-christening the 1994 act (errorneously and arrogantly just to suit your purpose) as the new manusmrithi. I have nothing more to add. The manusmrithi is a corpse and you are welcome to be the crypt keeper. |
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Chanakya
Joined: 27 Dec 2002
Posts: 2637
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Epithets such as "filthy brahmins" "you are a true brahmin" deifinitely display extreme prejudice and your final sentence of grudging acceptance that there could some truth left in me is an acceptance that you, without knowing anything about me had pre-judged (prejudiced) that there won't be any truth in me. |
I have not gone through your whole post but this paragraph stood out..
Tell us wise "Grrr" who is responsible for the pitiful condition of 70% lower caste HIndus. Who coined the work untouchable and dalits..?
Why they 70% hindus were called lower castes and why Brahmin is called superior or higher cast by hindus.
Why Brahmins were appointed as religious heads for generations..?
Why Dalits are not allowed in many temples in the rural India..?
Why literacy rate in lower caste is extremely low..?
Why did the Government have to implement affermative action..?
Why were hindus discriminating against each other in such a extreme way that affermative action had to put in place to compensate for 2000 years of wrong..?
e
You tell us the reasons..if all your scripture teach such noble things than what happened..who taught hindus to abuse, discriminate and treat fellow human being worse than animals..?
Answer these questions then we will talk..
P.S.Btw Sikhism is about equaltiy, universalism and egaltarianism..180 degree opposite of Brahmanism. |
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CRITICAL Singh
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | (1) CS says that there is a conspiracy by brahmins (who in CS's mind must own a monopoly of printing presses and publishing houses) that prevents the manusmrithi from being published.
This conspiracy theory is an insult to the reader's intelligence and is akin to the ravings of Mahathir Mohamed who claimed that Jews invented human-rights and communism to kill Islam. |
You are really very silly & desperate to say the least... Upper caste Hindus hold all the playing cards in India presently... you can see how they have a virtual stranglehold on the governemnt machinary as discussed in my last post... so no to repeat all over again...
| Quote: | (2) Sanskrit is deliberately not taught so that the dalit won't read the books.
Any normal person not blinded by hindu-hate can see that sanskrit is not taught simply because students aren't clamoring for it which is because sanskrit has lost its relevance (due to various reasons) as a useful language for a person to be successful in the Indian society now.
Incidentally, a lot of languages are slowly dying away and there is no conspiracy to kill them. This is a normal phenomenon not peculiar to sanskrit. Refer the following to begin understanding an aspect of the problem
(1) http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/051699/usn_LA0582.shtml
(2) http://www.seacoastonline.com/2001news/6_20_w1.htm |
Dear readers... please do keep this in mind that I dislike only those Hindus who close their eyes to Reality... but I do hate Hinduism for the way it has been followed by some upper caste Hindus over the centuries...
Could you specify what "due to various reasons" you are refereing to... Even if it is not normally spoken but you would agree that upper caste brahmins do learn it irrespective of whether it is spoken or not... may be even if it is just to have a basic overview of what vedas say. ---> Sanskrit is duly tought as an optional subject beyond Primary Level and in colleges it is a selective subject... so you cannot claim that it is not tought at all... or should I produce some evidence that it is duly tought beyond primary level of education in India...
| Quote: | | CS, if you care enough to worry about social problems, you can't hope to find any insights in conspiracy theories because they are delusions that exist in your mind and only you can shed it. I can only give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't really mean what you say. However, if you truly believe in the two conspiracy theories you have put forward, please reiterate it and cofirm it. Or, retract it and no harm is done. |
Delusions ??? Can you clarify how these critical theories based on evidence, are based on delusions...? And please keep your naive doubts with your ownself... I perfectly know what I am posting... Refute any of my theories... and as I have said before, I would be happy... honestly !!
Do you mean to say that by just providing elimentary education to lower caste hindus you are going to make them succesful in Indian society... I am not ready to bye this theory at all... I am not at all saying that giving them primary education is a bad thing but ofcourse a positive development... but again coming back to the topic, in a country where even after doing Ph.D., you are not assured of a decent job, then what purpose/future does primary education hold as far as being successful is concerned...? Ofcourse being a statistic to support the literacy movement in India... Can you explain: How the primary level education (till 5th Grade) will make lower caste Hindus successful in Indian Society ?
| Quote: | | CS has implicitly agreed that the manusmrithi in its original form as a document is defunct. Yet he wants to continue flogging the dead horse. So, he has taken the liberty to christen the caste reservation act of 1994 as the new manusmrithi. I'm sure the reader can see through this chicanery and won't agree to your arrogating the right to re-christen the 1994 act as the new manusmrithi. It serves no purpose other than the fact that CS can continue flogging the dead horse and trash talk hinduism. |
What CS has implicitly agree bla bla bla... what do you mean by agreed... I have always been advocating that its a piece of crap forced upon Hindus by Hindus to exploite them for centuries... chicanery... very funny indeed... you mean to say that I am tricking the readers to believe me... I again remind you, they are not blind folded or forced to believe me at all, so stop beating about the bush. It may be Manusamriti or any other Act... whats the difference... Manusmriti also classified/differentiated Hindus and Reservation Act, 1994 also did the same... so you can say that Manusmriti is in Sanskit language and this act is an modified English version of the same... whats the difference... I wonder...
| Quote: | | The mandal commission report (1994) is not "justifying" castes. It doesn't say "this is why castes should exist". I am not justifying it either. As I have already said, castes exists in India. The only thing I have been saying is that no hindu religious text has categorized the thousands of castes so it is a simple fact that it doesn't have scriptural sanction. It has more to do with people banding together to occupy some social niche. Finally exploiting it for unfair social advantage. The mandal commission is just saying that yes, castes exist and that there is a good correlation between lack of social development and castes and yes caste based reservation can be made. |
As I said earlier, now that Manu-Smriti stands exposed for his inhumane treatment of lower caste Hindus, and upper caste Hindus now want to disown it and call it crap... very smart indeed... Do upper caste hindus have some self-respect left in them or not ? afraid of facing the wrath of lower caste Hindus... hey there is one suggestion for those upper caste hindus... go to jungles...
Dear Grrrrr, you have to agree that there are four varnas... Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishs & Shudras. There are around '4000' lower castes i.e. all these lower castes amount to being either Vaish or Shudras... Right ? so these castes definitely evolved as per the defined pattern in hindu religious texts.
| Quote: | | So, in a nut-shell, there is no "justification" for why castes should exist in this report. This report is a statement of fact about the Indian society as the report writers found it to be and a recommendation for what can be done about it. |
Just have a glance at at Mandal Commission Report yourself and then come back with your justifications...
| Quote: | | A reservation system that focuses ONLY on caste is plain wrong. This the problem with the mandal commission report. There has to be some economic criteria associated with it. There are dirt poor people in virtually all castes in India. Some rule must be present that says that if your father benefited from the system you can't or if your father is an engineer or doctor the children can't benefit from it etc. This way the benefits spread out to people who really need it. The way it stands now, anyone, regardless of how rich they are get the benefit if they belong to a particular caste. This is a broken model. Anyway...this is a different topic... |
Hey Grrrrr, you make some sense here... what do you mean by broken model ? we have a different thread on Caste Reservation Act, 1994, you can share your views over there as well...
| Quote: | Merriam Webster defines a bigot as "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices"
I think the following quotes are representative of your attitude.
GRRR: Fundamentally, Hinduism says "stop arguing about books, start the practicals and learn for yourself".
CS: Well, suddenly you seem to be talking in terms of Sikhism... Sikhism is all about being practical and using common sense...
Basically, you have arroagted "common sense" to Sikhism if this isn't bigotry I don't know what is especially when the fact is I have shown Ramana Maharishi, a revered hindu saint explicitly saying that books not important and all that they say is one has to render the mind quiet and one has to perform "Self Enquiry". So, dont' read books endlessly, start enquiring about your true self. Yoga philosophy says that, and a lot of other text say that. If you are not interested in researching the issue but just hurl accusations, the readers can see through that. |
I think, I have replied to your naive comments about the books in my last post. And now you seem to be back-tracking... you said at first place that Ramana Maharishi said there is no need to read any books. I reiterate that Ramana Maharishi is just providing the crux of all the books... but you are misinterprating his sayings and in effect nullyfying his sayings... if there is no need to read books then why are you reading what Ramana Maharishi is saying... there is no need... get some focus...
| Quote: | | Epithets such as "filthy brahmins" "you are a true brahmin" deifinitely display extreme prejudice and your final sentence of grudging acceptance that there could some truth left in me is an acceptance that you, without knowing anything about me had pre-judged (prejudiced) that there won't be any truth in me. |
So, that means that any comment that does not suit upper caste Brahmin Hindus is bigoted one... very strange... very funny... Did I say anything wrong... I said you are a Brahmin... are you not ?
| Quote: | | So, I have provided evidence of you being a bigot and a prejudiced bigot at that. Readers, can gauge your maturity and civility by reading the nature of your posts and the language you have used, the epithets you have hurled and the prejudice you have spewed. I am sure it will help them assess your credibility and the weight of your arguments in the proper perspective. |
Yeah! let readers judge for themselves... you call me begoted, delusionary, arrogant etc. etc. then it perfectly alright for you but suddenly when I expose the brahmins then I am bigoted... get some focus...
| Quote: | | At this point, since you have tacitly agreed that the manusmrithi is dead by re-christening the 1994 act (errorneously and arrogantly just to suit your purpose) as the new manusmrithi. I have nothing more to add. The manusmrithi is a corpse and you are welcome to be the crypt keeper. |
As I said Manu Smriti is alive and kicking... you can not run away from this reality... prove me wrong if you can...
Chardi Kala
Critical Singh |
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