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Faith Freedom International
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bread
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 Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Folks, we have put men on the Moon. US spacecraft have left the solar system and are on their way to the stars. We've cracked the DNA code that makes us all work. Whacking each other whose gods have the bigger dicks went out with whale oil lamps. "Killing for Jesus" has no place in the modern world and makes about as much sense as two kids fist fighting over whether Superman or Batman is the greater comic book hero!
We've been suckered down this road before. Holy Crusades make the rich richer and kill a lot of innocent and harmless people.
"Entering the city [Jerusalem, July 15, 1099], our pilgrims pursued and killed Saracens up to the Temple of Solomon, in which they had assembled and where they gave battle to us furiously for the whole day so that their blood flowed throughout the whole temple. Finally, having overcome the pagans, our knights seized a great number of men and women, and the killed whom they wished and whom they wished they let live.... Then, rejoicing and weeping from extreme joy, our men went to worship at the sepulchre of jour Saviour Jesus and thus fulfilled their pledge to Him.... They also ordered that all the Saracen dead should be thrown out of the city because of the extreme stench, for the city was almost full of their cadavers. The live Saracens dragged the dead out before the gates and made piles of them, like houses. No one has ever heard of or seen such a slaughter of pagan peoples since pyres were made of them like boundary marks, and no one except God knows their number." -- [Histoire anonyme de la premiere croisade, L. Brehier, ed. Paris: Champion, 1924 (From The Portable Medieval Reader, Ed. James Bruce Ross and Mary Martin McLaughlin)]
"A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!" -- Jeremiah 48:10, Motto of Pope Gregory VII.
courtesy of Mike Rivero |
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Spinoza
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: Why are we alive? |
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| eruss wrote: | | Quote: |
That depends if you even acknowledge the question. |
The question was asked in the first post and atheism has no answer to it. |
That doens't matter; if I asked at what temperature in degrees celcius does oxygen burn one couldn't give an answer either. First one has to answer whether life needs an external reason. Otherwise one would be trying to answer the wrong question.
Claiming that 'atheism' doens't have the answer is bullocks: that's like claiming 'poetry' doesn't know the answer to 1+1. Atheism in it self is not a lifestyle, nor a religion; it's merely the non belief in God.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Lumping Buddhism and all eastern religions together like this is silly to say the least. |
There are different kinds of Buddhist, yes. Most Buddhist believe you don't exist. I am summarizing of course. |
Well that's entirely wrong. I don't know what site you nicked this little gem off but your talking out of your lower back. There's a whole plethora of 'eastern' religions, some are totally the opposite of Buddhism, so why on earth you think you should lump them together is beyong me.
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Well well, this assumes there actually is a God as described in the Bible. |
No it does not. That view is in the Bible. |
So by definition the Christian view is based on that assumption. Christianity is based around the belief that there is a God that actually cares about us. There nothing wrong with believing in a God, but it is an (fundamental) assumption nonetheless.
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Did you pray for forgiveness yet for lying so blatantly about Jesus? |
No, but I did for your soul. |
Well, thank you, but lying is a sin. A big sin.
| Quote: | How come you don't call me Forrest no more Gomer?  I kinda got a kick outa that. Forrest and Gomer. What a great team!  |
Ah, the routine got old. I'll think of new name for my favorite pet...don't worry. 
Back to the topic at hand: first we should find a common ground and agree wether life *needs* a reason or life merely *is*.
You can't build a house on loose sand, you should build it on a rock.
So, let's discuss just that point first before we venture into stage 2 and ask ourselves: what is the reason for life? (or the reason to live) |
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Spinoza
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The Golden Rule? You kidding me? You never read anything from the Greek philisophers? That expression was rather common. Even inscriptions about it. Aritotle taught it to Alexander the Great (3 centuries before the Bandit terrorist Jesus), also Democritus used it centuries before the Terorrist Jesus.
Zarathustra (6 centuries before Jesus Barabas) used it. It appeard in Hinduism and in the Laws of Manu. (2000 years before the Terroris Jesus Barabas). It appeared in Sumeria (3000 years before the bandit terrorist Jesus). And was pesent among somee Jewish sects 2 centuires before the terorirst Jesus)
You need more? |
I don't think Jesus was a terrorist. |
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bread
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Back to the topic at hand: first we should find a common ground and agree wether life *needs* a reason or life merely *is*. |
Life is. Wheter you you attach a reason for it or not, you are still alive, arent you? 
People close to the nature, like nomads, peasants, hardworking mining and factory workers, etc, they do not look for reasons to be alive. They just want to get on with living and acquiring the means to maintain their survival.
Animals just live and dont go about philosophising wheter they need to eat or not.
PEople with a lot of time and not enough sorting out of the information crammed into their brains need or are taught to need extra reasons for life.
| Quote: | | I don't think Jesus was a terrorist |
Well, you are my valued friend. But even friends cannot agree on everything. So I value your opinion.
But if you want to see the other side of the Jesus Barabas the historical one, see askwhy.co.uk
There are also the Roman accounts, and you can see ti from the Bible too, as well as from the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Qumaram histories etc.
The people Christians call the 12 Apostled where Fanatical ^Jewish Nationalist Terrorists, who murdered Jews and Gentiles alike. Jesus himself was one of the worst characters, a notorious Gentile hater, as even some snipets from the Bible attest to. I gave you directions to that site, ands there are others like it. And also dont forget the Roman accounts tehmselves. And knowing history and Roman customs of the time, you can deduct like a historical detective the real deal.
Romans only crucified rebells. Jesus was a rebel. One of the many Jewish false Meshias. There were dozens. The Sicarries were assasines. Take a look at that site first.
Good luck,
Peace |
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scepsis
Joined: 10 Nov 2002
Posts: 647
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Why are we alive? |
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| eruss wrote: | | Quote: | | If I'm going to live forever, why die at all? |
IF you will live forever you won't. |
I shall rephrase: if we are going to be reborn and live for ever, why should our current bodies die at all?
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Life is worth living just for its own sake. We are alive because we and our ancestors evolved to acquire a habit and taste of staying alive. We need no external purpose- life and living, like much of morality, are inherent to being human. |
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You can see how this world view leads to death, uglyness and destruction. In this world view humans have no intrinsic value. They are merely matter like a rock. No moral universals to give any meaning and value. Murder is ok because there is no moral universal that says it's not. In this world view there is no basis for morality, beauty and ethics. Death and uglyness result from this world view. |
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Certain moral universals are inherent to human beings: they may be there merely because they helped our ancestors survive, but they are still there. Your god-imposed "moral universal" is as arbitrary and meaningless as the rules of a game: it exists only to count the score. Death- or what looks like death to us- uglyness, morality, beauty and ethics are here whether there is a god or not; if they are god-imposed they are as absurd as your "moral universal". | Quote: |
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If there is a god that will damn or save you for what you do and how you worship it in this life, what is this life but a pointless obstacle race with grossly disproportionate rewards and punishments? Your fate for eternity depends on the trivial things- eternally speaking- you do in a flicker of time- and someone says that's a meaning? |
You sound as if you are trying to summarize the Christian view but you don't say. Certainly you have not described the Christian World View.
The Chrsitian World View is in three parts:
Creation
Fall
Redemption |
You haven't answered my question, though. What was inaccurate about my summary of redemptive religion? |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Why are we alive? |
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That doens't matter; |
You have lost sight of the original question. If the poster is searching for a religion that gives meaning to life then atheism is not it because it has no answer to his that question. |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Why are we alive? |
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| Quote: | | I shall rephrase: if we are going to be reborn and live for ever, why should our current bodies die at all? |
Because the one you have is defective. Just look at it.
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Certain moral universals are inherent to human beings: |
Which ones? |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:37 am Post subject: |
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It appeard in Hinduism and in the Laws of Manu. |
If you are enough of an idiot to call Jesus a terrorist then you are enough of an idiot to be a liar and I don't trust you, so please show me in the Laws of Mana where it is. What page? |
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bread
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| eruss wrote: | | Quote: |
It appeard in Hinduism and in the Laws of Manu. |
If you are enough of an idiot to call Jesus a terrorist then you are enough of an idiot to be a liar and I don't trust you, so please show me in the Laws of Mana where it is. What page? |
More name calling you uneducated Christian man? You expect me to give you anything when you use that kind of language? You are to eûneducated to grasp most of the stuff didcussed here.
If you apologize for your childish name calling I will endulge you. Up to you. |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 7:40 am Post subject: |
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If you apologize for your childish name calling I will endulge you. Up to you. |
As usual you refute yourself. You called Jesus a terrorist. |
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scepsis
Joined: 10 Nov 2002
Posts: 647
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Why are we alive? |
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| eruss wrote: | | Quote: | | I shall rephrase: if we are going to be reborn and live for ever, why should our current bodies die at all? |
Because the one you have is defective. Just look at it. :D
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Yours, perhaps. Mine is in perfect nick. Why begin with a deliberately-made defective body, and then replace it with a perfect immortal whatever will replace it? |
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bread
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| eruss wrote: | | Quote: |
If you apologize for your childish name calling I will endulge you. Up to you. |
As usual you refute yourself. You called Jesus a terrorist. |
You use the expression self refuting a lot. I do am not entirely persuaded you understand its meaning.
Jesus was a terorist. Based on his murders and crimes. I gave you the sources.
You on the other hand attacked my personaly. I did not reciprocate.
You remind me of Menj and other Muslims fanatics. When I call MuhamMAD a paedophile, they lower themselves by using ad hominems. They claim pointing out MuhamMAD`S faoults and wrong behaviour is sinonimous to attacking them personally. That is caused by Islam`s effects on their brains.
Your mirror image behaviour is caused by the effect of your brand of Christianity on your thought processes. I talked with Catholic Bishops the same thing. They didnt go balistic like you. You did. Ergo your brand of Catholicism is more extreme than Catholicism. At least those guys never lose their temper or run out of arguments and then throw a tantrum.
If you apologise, I wil give you free info on Jesus terrorist activities (similar to Bin LAdins today) as well as the Laws of Manu and Gilgamesh story where the Bible was copied from (the ``Flood`` chapters) etc.
But you must show poiteness and respect to others you do not agree with. Then we can continue to lear from each other. If you remain obstinate in being hostile then good bye. |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Why are we alive? |
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| Quote: | | Mine is in perfect nick. |
Really. No wrinkles? No pains? No sickness? No deteriorization at all? Your body is going to last forever?
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Why begin with a deliberately-made defective body, and then replace it with a perfect immortal whatever will replace it? |
Read your Bible my friend. God started us out with perfect bodies. (No, the Bible does not use the words "perfect bodies".) |
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Unknown 288
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 8:30 am Post subject: |
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To TruthSeeker
Q. Why are we alive?
A. By chance.
Q. Why am I my particular self, and not somebody else?
A. By chance.
Q. Is being alive pointless as I am going to die again?
A. That is only one from many points of view. If you wish to believe so, then life will appear pointless to you.
Q. Why live this life then, when it's so miserable?
A. It is your own call. Anyone who dies can become a Buddha, but you live, and that's the difference.
Q. Does anyone need a reason to live?
A. No. You don't need a reason to continue living, just survive day by day.
Q. Why do many seek a meaning in their life?
A. Just my opinion, I think it is because the weakness in their mind makes it hard for them to accept certain things. To put it in a harsher way, they're running away from the biting realities that they just happen to live by chance, and that their life may not have any purpose at all. |
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bread
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| That`s a beautiful dialogIbn Rushd. |
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Ibn Rushd
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Which dialogue? |
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bread
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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My mistake Mr. Ibn Rushd,
I meant Bag of Thoughts. 
Sorry to both of you guys. I read too fast. Im sorry.  |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Q. Why are we alive?
A. By chance. |
According to the atheist, MATTER + TIME + CHANCE (as admitted above) = Life as we know it.
If life is chance then there is no universal basis for morality, justice, beauty or ethics. The Popes ideal of society is just as good as Hitler’s.
I don't remember who started this thread but I hope they are noticing the atheists offer no basis or foundation for a meaningful life. Their religion is void of meaning and basis for a purposeful life.
As the poster pointed out, one does not need a reason to live, thus death is just as valid. A human has no more intrinsic value than a rock. We are here by chance. Chance is not an answer that provides purpose. It is an answer that leads to "survival of the fittest" and "relativism" in which all life is void of intrinsic meaning.
The only view that gives hope, meaning and purpose to life is the Christian World View which views man as an image bearer of God Himself who loves us and through Him all things can be measured and given meaning and purpose.
To have a universal in the conclusion one must have a universal in the premise. Only with an infinite God can one arrive at the conclusion that there is a universal basis for meaning, morality, beauty, and justice for humanity. No other explanation can do that. |
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Unknown 288
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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To eruss
The only thing that is possibly universal is ethics. The concept of justice and morality is non-objective, they always change with time and location. Beauty is relative.
And I don't trust papacy either. I still remember the atrocities and the dark age caused by the repressive church in power.
Atheism is not a religion. Atheism means the disbelief in the existence of a supreme deity people called god. It started as a reaction to religious groups' claim that their god is the real one, who failed to provide a definite proof when asked to.
First the term meaningful life is pretty much vague. Which one is meaningful? And what is life? 
Is life characterised only by hydrocarbon chains? Then how about my favourite black pepper beef steak sitting on my plate right now? Is it alive? Whoa? AAAHHHHH! IT'S MOVING!!! 
Make a program to model the growth of bacteria which doubles every 1 hour, with available space, waste products, and food source as the independent variables. Congratulations, you just emulate the basic function of life. Now, is that tiny pixel on the screen a living creature? Why not? It has a life function, right?
Is life characterised strictly by its base? Or is it by the function? Or both? Even if it is both, you can imagine a silicon based creature breathing, eating, sleeping easily enough. So what is life?
To atheism, life is just... life! A concept, according to my understanding. That's what it all is. You don't sit inside Starbucks, order a cup of coffee, looking at it and then ponder what is the meaning of a cup of coffee... A cup of coffee means a cup of coffee, and that's all it is.
Atheism is not about reducing life to mere matter. It is about freedom from religions. It basically says that you don't need some god to make you live your life the fullest. And I agree, why would you? God saves no one. You are the one who can make a change in your own life. |
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eruss
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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The concept of justice and morality is non-objective, they always change with time and location. Beauty is relative. |
You are telling me what is, like telling me the chair is in the corner. So?
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And I don't trust papacy either. I still remember the atrocities and the dark age caused by the repressive church in power. |
Amen! I agree.
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Atheism means the disbelief in the existence of a supreme deity people called god. |
But that is not how most atheists these days describe atheism in their literature. They describe it as absence of belief in God, gods and goddesses, not a DISBELIEF in them.
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First the term meaningful life is pretty much vague. Which one is meaningful? And what is life? |
Atheism has no answer to these questions.
| Quote: | | To atheism, life is just... life! A concept, according to my understanding. That's what it all is. You don't sit inside Starbucks, order a cup of coffee, looking at it and then ponder what is the meaning of a cup of coffee... A cup of coffee means a cup of coffee, and that's all it is. |
That is a non answer answer. It demonstrates what I am saying about atheism that it has no answers to offer the original post at the beginning of this thread. The poster was searching for answers to his or her life and you as an atheist offer none.
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Atheism is not about reducing life to mere matter. |
It is a big part of atheism. It goes all the way back to Democritus who was called the father of materialism and it goes all the way to Gilbert Ryle in the 20th century. A poster here follows in order by asking for physical proof for God in order to proof Gods existence. He claims if there is not physical proof for anything than it does not exist.
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It is about freedom from religions. |
If there is no God, gods or goddesses then what do they need to be freed from?
Atheist have there own books, recruitment centers and tracts they pass out on college campuses. If they have the right to proselytize then so do Christians. I have the right to be free from atheism or non- religions just as much as you have the right to be free from religions.
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It basically says that you don't need some god to make your life meaningful. |
No one said that an atheist could not have a meaningfull life.
| Quote: | | God saves no one. You are the one who can make a change in your own life. |
It does not sound like you are clear about what "save" in the Christian term means. |
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Unknown 288
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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To eruss
Strange you'd put it that way. A chair in the corner is objective, since I observe it and can tell whether it's right or not. We know that morality changes with time and space. Justice (I'd prefer to call it law) is always formulated to meet the needs of those in power or majority. An assassin who's obsessed with the art of killing finds beauty in performing assassination under the most rigorous and demanding situation. Do you find it beautiful?
Atheism has two positions. Those that describe it as an absence of belief in god hold weak atheist position. Those that believe further that god doesn't exist hold strong atheist position.
Well, did I even say I'm an atheist? You don't believe that I'm a religious person?
Oh, and if you assume that I don't know christianity either, well, in fact I know quite a bit. My good pious christian friends are kind enough to teach me their doctrines and bible interpretations: original sin, trinity, resurrection, virgin birth, salvation, holy spirit, judgement day...
And materialism is different from atheism. Materialism is a philosophical theory that explains event, act and state in terms of material objects and their inter-relationship. I don't get how you came to that conclusion. Mind explaining that to me?
These are the ideas atheism:
- There is more to moral behavior than mindlessly following rules (this is what religious people tend to do).
- Always be sceptical and search for what is true.
- Make the most of your life. If you want your life to have some sort of meaning, it's up to you to find it.
- It's no good relying on some external power to change you; you must change yourself.
- Just because something's popular doesn't mean it's good, and don't believe things just because you want them to be true.
- All beliefs should be open to question.
Atheism does not claim to provide any meaning to life, instead it encourages people to find it themselves and not relying on something so vague like a god. It is certainly different from christianity which tries to assure people that god has a purpose in their life, that they live to glorify god, that they are meant to be projection of his image, etc etc etc... So, mind commenting on this one? |
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bread
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:04 am Post subject: |
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Bag of Thoughts,
I liked that line: ``What is the meaning of a cop of coffee``.
I have also a good one. Since the question ``What is the meaning of life has been asked``, a good question is: ``What is the meaning of God``? |
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