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Faith Freedom International
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Unknown 271
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 14
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 Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:06 am Post subject: MR ALI SINA WHAT PROOF DO YOU WANT????? |
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I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT KIND OF PROOF DO YOU WANT??
TO MANY PEOPLE GOT PHOBIA IN THIS WORLD!!!
HOW DO YOU FEEL WITH THAT PHOBIA???
IS THIS THE WAY YOU WANT TO RECOVER FROM YOUR SICKNESS , BY PUBLISHING A WEBSITE THAT REALLY REALLY UNEDUCATIONAL???
PLEASE TELL ME WHAT KIND OF PROOF????
TELL ME PLEASE!!!
REMEMBER THE ONE WHO BROUGHT YOU UP FROM DEATH AND YOU BECAME A LIVING CREATURE AND YOU WILL DIE AND WILL RETURN TO HIM
GOD SAYS IN THE QUR'AN (iT WILL BE SAID:) "THOU WAST HEEDLESS OF THIS; NOW HAVE WE REMOVED THY VEIL,AND SHARP IS THY SIGHT THIS DAY!"
SO BECAUSE YOUR FALSEHOOD IN THIS RELIGION , SOMETHING HAS COVERED YOUR MIND AND WILL BE OPENED LATER AFTER YOU DIE TO PROOF THAT THIS RELIGION IS RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG.
THIS IS ABOUT YOU AND GOD SO I THINK YOU HAVE CHALENGED HIM, BE PREPARED EVERYTIME, REMEMBER YOU WILL DIE!!!! AND REMEMBER THE ONE WHO CREATED YOU.
HE KNOWS EVERY FEELINGS THAT YOU HAVE, EVERY LIES THAT YOU HAVE MADE, EVERY FALSEHOODS THAT YOU HAVE SPREAD BY PUBLISHING THIS WEBSITE.
HE(GOD) HAS PROMISED FOR THIS RELIGION , EVERY LIVING CREATURE AND EVERYTHING THAT EXIST IN THIS WORLD ONLY FOR TRUTH.NO FALSEHOODS IN HIS SPIRIT ...YOU WILL COME TO KNOW.
BUT YOU ARE THE BEST CREATED BEING THAT HE HAS CREATED THAT CONTAINS A BRAIN THAT MOVING YOU EITHER BAD OR GOOD. IT IS A NATURAL THING IN HUMANKIND.
VERILY IT IS SO OBVIOUS WHEN YOU DELIBERATELY DOING AN EVIL DEEDS BECAUSE YOUR HEART WOULD KEEP ASKING YOU. REMEMBER GOD HAS PUT HIS CHALENGE , CONFIRMATION, KNOWLEDGE ABOUT YOU THAT EVERY EVIL DEEDS THAT YOU DO IS NOT FROM HIM , IS FROM YOU!!!. CAN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?? AND HE THE MOST GENIUS ONE WILL PROOF IT TO YOU WHETHER YOU STILL IN THIS WORLD(IF YOU COME BACK TO HIS WAY, INSYA ALLAH THAT KNOWLEDGE WILL COME TO YOU) OR IN THE HEREAFTER IF YOU STILL BE A TRANSGRESSOR.
BUT AS A MOSLEM , WE ONLY DEMANDED TO GIVE THIS MESSAGE TO YOU AND FOR THE REST, LET GIVE IT TO GOD THE MOST GRACIOUS THE MOST MERCIFUL. BRAIN IS A CREATED THING, FROM HIS WILLS ALL THINGS ARE COMEBACK AND WORKED.
THIS BETWEEN YOU AND GOD
BE PREPARED. |
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Spinoza
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:07 am Post subject: Re: MR ALI SINA WHAT PROOF DO YOU WANT????? |
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| balfas wrote: | | I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT KIND OF PROOF DO YOU WANT?? |
Proove to me that the Quran is the word of God.
| Quote: | | TO MANY PEOPLE GOT PHOBIA IN THIS WORLD!!! |
Yes, and too many people use caps all the time. Unless your name is Bush Badee (  )I think this is really rude!
| Quote: | | HOW DO YOU FEEL WITH THAT PHOBIA??? |
What phobia? You mean of black dogs? Lizzards? Snakes? Jews? Jinns?
| Quote: | | IS THIS THE WAY YOU WANT TO RECOVER FROM YOUR SICKNESS , BY PUBLISHING A WEBSITE THAT REALLY REALLY UNEDUCATIONAL??? |
Well, tell us what is wrong with the site and we can take it from there.
| Quote: | PLEASE TELL ME WHAT KIND OF PROOF????
TELL ME PLEASE!!! |
Okay: Proove to me that the Quran is the word or God.
<snip.
| Quote: | THIS BETWEEN YOU AND GOD
BE PREPARED. |
If God exists he did NOT write the Quran.
How's that! Proove me wrong. |
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adnan
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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my my.. lot of ANGER we got there.
yes, please Muslim balfas, listen to what Spinoza says:
Proove to me that the Quran is the word or God.
Prove that Mohamed was NOT a false prophet.
We're looking for PROOF that Mohammed was not a false prophet. 
Adnan
(former muslim who was muslim for 20 years, now agnostic) |
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EigenVektor
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2003 3:03 am Post subject: |
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@balfas, "playing" stupid is not an excuse.
I don´t understand the question, duh. |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2003 3:44 am Post subject: |
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Dear balfas,
Balfs wrote:
| Quote: | | I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT KIND OF PROOF DO YOU WANT?? |
Presumably you plan to devote your entire life to the Quran, and if you have or plan to have children to devote their lives to the Quran. You might spend much time educating others about the truth of Islam.
Before you invest all this time and effort and personal influence, what type of proof do you need that the Quran is the truth?
Best regards,
Rand |
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Unknown 271
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 3:26 am Post subject: WHO IS GOD?? |
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God speaks Him self and chalenges for somebody who fells that he/she telling the truth.
59. Say: Praise be to Allah, and Peace on his servants whom He has chosen (for his Message). (Who) is better?- Allah or the false gods they associate (with Him)?
60. Or, Who has created the heavens and the earth, and Who sends you down rain from the sky? Yea, with it We cause to grow well-planted orchards full of beauty of delight: it is not in your power to cause the growth of the trees in them. (Can there be another) god besides Allah. Nay, they are a people who swerve from justice.
61. Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable; and made a separating bar between the two bodies of flowing water? (can there be another) god besides Allah. Nay, most of them know not.
62. Or, Who listens to the (soul) distressed when it calls on Him, and Who relieves its suffering, and makes you (mankind) inheritors of the earth? (Can there be another) god besides Allah. Little it is that ye heed!
63. Or, Who guides you through the depths of darkness on land and sea, and Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His Mercy? (Can there be another) god besides Allah.- High is Allah above what they associate with Him!
64. Or, Who originates creation, then repeats it, and who gives you sustenance from heaven and earth? (Can there be another) god besides Allah. Say, "Bring forth your argument, if ye are telling the truth!"
65. Say: None in the heavens or on earth, except Allah, knows what is hidden: nor can they perceive when they shall be raised up (for Judgment).
66. Still less can their knowledge comprehend the Hereafter: Nay, they are in doubt and uncertainty thereanent; nay, they are blind thereunto!
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Unknown 271
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 3:45 am Post subject: GOD REASONS TO YOU |
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God wants you to use your knowledge that He has given to you "just litle bit" if you want to know more about Him.
this verse points to your logic, use it.
He says : How can ye reject the faith in Allah.- seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return.
It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.
you can get this verses from Surah 2, 28-29. |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 4:15 am Post subject: |
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Balfas wrote:
| Quote: | God wants you to use your knowledge that He has given to you "just litle bit" if you want to know more about Him.
this verse points to your logic, use it.
He says : How can ye reject the faith in Allah.- seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return.
It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.
you can get this verses from Surah 2, 28-29. |
Dear Balfas,
Many people have argued that there is no God. But even assuming that God exists, there are so many people throughout history who've claimed to be a prophet. So I need to know whether Quran is based on false prophecy.
So God causes life and death. Every one knows life and death exists, so that does not prove that God exists nor would it prove that Muhammad's God exists.
Then the text mentons that God causes ressurrection of the dead, but we don't know that. That God has perfect knowledge, and that the seven firmaments are perfect, which we do not know. In fact, given earthquakes, I would assume that the earth is imperfect. So that does not prove to me that Allah exists.
http://www.crowl.org/Lawrence/time/days.html
| Quote: | The Naming of the Days
The Greeks named the days week after the sun, the moon and the five known planets, which were in turn named after the gods Ares, Hermes, Zeus, Aphrodite, and Cronus. The Greeks called the days of the week the Theon hemerai "days of the Gods". The Romans substituted their equivalent gods for the Greek gods, Mars, Mercury, Jove (Jupiter), Venus, and Saturn. (The two pantheons are very similar.) The Germanic peoples generally substituted roughly similar gods for the Roman gods, Tiu (Twia), Woden, Thor, Freya (Fria), but did not substitute Saturn. |
As for the 7 planetary bodies, this was an ancient belief, since then more planets have been discovered.
Best regards,
Rand |
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MONICA
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 31
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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Mr/mullah/balfus
I am a Christian. However, I cannot prove to anyone that the Bible is true. I cannot even prove it to myself! What I believe is based on faith, something like Columbus thought the world was round and sailed to pick up some spices. Hope you can follow. Now I won't know the truth until I sail around the world (die)! What I have is only faith--with no proof other than the world around me--I actually believe a higher power did create this consciousness. And Hell, Jesus was the type of person I could share a mug of wine with. He was decent and had a sense of humor. But all of this stems from my own belief no matter that others may see it as irrational. However, I am logical and honest enough to say "There is no proof" that the Bible is true, nada, zilch. And if you are logical and honest with yourself, you would admit that the Quran cannot be proven!
_________________
WHY? |
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Unknown 271
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 5:29 am Post subject: Brain is created thing(FOR MONICA) |
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Brain is created thing, even your mind.
and this Religion is a way of life, so it must be profen in logical, rational and based on people understanding.
because we only a created being, if you said that this religion can not be proven , WHY I HAVE TO BE EXISTED AND WHY I HAVE TO TAKE SOMETHING FOR A SALVATION? iam not a fanatic, iam a man who like something related to LOGIC, RATIONAL, MORAL, ETHICS like e.g mathematic, phisic, etc.And this religion is really- really point to this aspect, you have to use your brain or otherwise you gonna be lost.
man , i know christianity, but this religion is not the one that i want. i have learned christianity but eventually there are a lot of contradictions that i've found in christianity. God created everything in truth , so why He has to put mathematic without contradictions and christianity with a great deal of contradictions, is not made sense.
for example the Bible in every chapter is always written THE GOSPEL ACCORDING to MATHEW, SAINT MARK, SAINT JOHN.
WHY MUST ACCORDING TO????? IT IS NOT MADE SENSE, WHY ACCORDING ??? AND IT IS POSSIBLE THAT MATHEW DID NOT WRITE MATHEW BECAUSE IT IS ACCORDING TO, DO YOU UNDERSTAND????
so in this matter i ask my self, do you want to follow a religion that based on confussion??i answer ,no iam not. so what ever in bible is not based on knowledge "for me", what i've got is only contradictions.
AND IF JESUS GOD WHY HE WAS PRAYING TO GOD???
AND HE SAID MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN ALL, I CAN MY SELF DO NOTHING, GOD DID BY HIM ETC...THIS GOD (WHICH JESUS CALLS HIM FATHER) THAT I WORSHIPED .
BY GOD HI IS A MAN if you read the bible properly.
QUR'AN SAYS : O People of the Book(jews and christians)! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah/God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.
They do blaspheme who say: "(God) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,- God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
- In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things."
An offer to worship only to one God and joint in the same platformSay: "O People of the Book!(JEWS AND CHRISTIANS) come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God. that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God's Will).
why it is blasphemy for somebody who saying that Jesus is God?? because your are not talking the truth, you are telling about lies to God, and to somebody else who hearing you.look up your bible and read it again and put Jesus as a man not as a God.
please, read your bible properly, and put Jesus as a man, and beleive me you will recognise jesus as a pure man who praying and needs helps from God "The almighty".
God really like a man who seeks knowledge to survive, not only depending to your faith and you dont do anything. and in Islam you have to strugle for this life and in the here after God will judge you according to your deeds.
why we have to strugle, because He has given us a brain to think,to choose, not to give up, no to be lazy. but however you can't strugle by your self alone , God would help you if you stand up in truth, you just do litle bit home work(by following His instructions) and He would help you.
please Monica iam not trying to insult your religion, iam not the man who like that kind of characters, iam trying to speak in knowledge , for me thats the way of salvation, not through the blood of Jesus(because it is really not made sense if you just depending your self to Jesus but this world is getting more worst than before and the crimes is increasing, what kind of sin that has been forgiven??? )
my knowledge about DEATH have been answer only in this religion, this religion talking so comprehensive about death and what you are going to do after you die.
EVEN THE NAME ALLAH(ARABIC) MEANS 1 GOD OR THE PARTICULAR ONE TO BE WORSHIPPED.Allah is the personal name of the One true God. Nothing else can be called Allah. The term has no plural or gender. This shows its uniqueness when compared with the word god which can be made plural, gods, or feminine, goddess. It is interesting to notice that Allah is the personal name of God in Aramaic, the language of Jesus and a sister language of Arabic.
and plus 99 names that He has.
so you can call Him by any names, but name that not contaminated with evil things.
for e.g you can call Him the genius One because he has created knowledge of all that exist.
there are still a lot of explanations about this religion and you can get the informations about this way of life at www.harunyahya.com (SCIENCE IN QUR'AN)
this only a small contribution of mine,it is possible that i did a mistake.
iam not a fanatic , iam trying to talk in a good manner as best as i can , if you get insulted about what i had said iam sorry and i know monica is a good woman that try to get the truth as well as me.
iam a moslem who try to do the best as hard as i can to solve the problem of this world.
and iam 100 % sure that this religion is solving the problem of humanity based on God knowledge who created this life in this world and the life after death.
i still trying and learning hardly to know more about this religion, day by day i've found more truth, more logic , more reality about this religion..and thats the way of salvation.
and please this religion is very very faaaaarrrrr to get involved with something so called terorist.
open www.harunyahya.com insya Allah you will found the truth. |
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Spinoza
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Brain is created thing, even your mind. |
That’s what you believe and you’re granted this belied.
| Quote: | | and this Religion is a way of life, so it must be profen in logical, rational and based on people understanding. |
Ah it must be *PROVEN*? So, what is your logical, rational and understandable *proof* if I may ask?
| Quote: | | because we only a created being, if you said that this religion can not be proven , WHY I HAVE TO BE EXISTED AND WHY I HAVE TO TAKE SOMETHING FOR A SALVATION? iam not a fanatic, iam a man who like something related to LOGIC, RATIONAL, MORAL, ETHICS like e.g mathematic, phisic, etc.And this religion is really- really point to this aspect, you have to use your brain or otherwise you gonna be lost. |
So, you are also claiming that Islam is: Rationally, morally and ethically okay? The Quran contains several *gross* physical and mathematical errors, would you like to discuss those with me?
| Quote: | | man , i know christianity, but this religion is not the one that i want. i have learned christianity but eventually there are a lot of contradictions that i've found in christianity. God created everything in truth , so why He has to put mathematic without contradictions and christianity with a great deal of contradictions, is not made sense. |
Ah, there are contractions in the Bible? Perhaps there are: so does this make the Quran the word of God? No it does not.
| Quote: | for example the Bible in every chapter is always written THE GOSPEL ACCORDING to MATHEW, SAINT MARK, SAINT JOHN.
WHY MUST ACCORDING TO????? IT IS NOT MADE SENSE, WHY ACCORDING ??? AND IT IS POSSIBLE THAT MATHEW DID NOT WRITE MATHEW BECAUSE IT IS ACCORDING TO, DO YOU UNDERSTAND???? |
So? What is your point? I think most Christians hold the Bible to be Theopneustos (Θεοπνευστοσ) anyway.
| Quote: | | so in this matter i ask my self, do you want to follow a religion that based on confussion??i answer ,no iam not. so what ever in bible is not based on knowledge "for me", what i've got is only contradictions. |
I don’t think you ever read the Bible. You’re not even talking about its contents.
| Quote: | | AND IF JESUS GOD WHY HE WAS PRAYING TO GOD??? |
Because he was send here by God to show us the way to God?
| Quote: | | AND HE SAID MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN ALL, I CAN MY SELF DO NOTHING, GOD DID BY HIM ETC...THIS GOD (WHICH JESUS CALLS HIM FATHER) THAT I WORSHIPED . |
Yes, that’s why Jesus is the ‘son’ and the heavenly father is ‘the father’.
| Quote: | | BY GOD HI IS A MAN if you read the bible properly. |
Yes, he most certainly was: he was a man, he ate, slept, cried, worked, walked, breathed, prayed and died like a man.
| Quote: | | QUR'AN SAYS : O People of the Book(jews and christians)! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah/God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs. |
Well, the God of the Quran is KhairulMukareen (the best of all deceivers); I wouldn’t trust a God like that.
| Quote: | | < snip > why it is blasphemy for somebody who saying that Jesus is God?? because your are not talking the truth, you are telling about lies to God, and to somebody else who hearing you.look up your bible and read it again and put Jesus as a man not as a God. |
So? What’s this got to do with your proof of the Quran?
| Quote: | | please, read your bible properly, and put Jesus as a man, and beleive me you will recognise jesus as a pure man who praying and needs helps from God "The almighty". |
The strange thing is that within the Quran one can find God being the ‘greatest’. If there is only one God, how can he be the ‘greatest?
Or in 33:56: Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.
E.H. Palmer's translation translates it as: "God and His angels pray for the prophet."
How can God pray? To whom will he pray? Another God?
He’s also the lord of the 2(!) easts and wests (!)
055.017 (He is) Lord of the two Easts and Lord of the two Wests:
How can this be?
A little later he is *contradicting* himself:
073.009 (He is) Lord of the East and the West: there is no god but He: take Him therefore for (thy) Disposer of Affairs
So even Allah cannot make up his mind.
But it gets a lot weirder! Watch in 70:40 ALLAH is swearing by the LORDS OF THE EAST AND THE WEST?
070.040
YUSUFALI: Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East and the West that We can certainly-
PICKTHAL: But nay! I swear by the Lord of the rising-places and the setting-places of the planets that We verily are Able
SHAKIR: But nay! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests that We are certainly able
IS there a greater power than ALLAH? A power *he* can swear by?
Or in verse 95, Allah is even swearing *BY THE FIG AND THE OLIVE*???
At any rate, you OWE it to critically evaluate the Quran. See if you still make all these weird claims.
Take care and I hope to meet you soon on the other side. The side of LIGHT, LIFE and LOVE. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Brain is created thing(FOR MONICA) |
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| balfas wrote: | for example the Bible in every chapter is always written THE GOSPEL ACCORDING to MATHEW, SAINT MARK, SAINT JOHN.
WHY MUST ACCORDING TO????? IT IS NOT MADE SENSE, WHY ACCORDING ??? AND IT IS POSSIBLE THAT MATHEW DID NOT WRITE MATHEW BECAUSE IT IS ACCORDING TO, DO YOU UNDERSTAND????
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Are you inept sir? Your reasoning astounds me. You seem to be having trouble comprehending the simplest of statements. Let me elaborate it for your little mind.
If I am called to witness an event or incident, say for example an accident, my statement which I hold as absolute, would be according to what I saw. Therefore it will be a "statement of the accident according to ME".
How hard is it to understand the meaning of that word. And why would someone want to write a Gospel according to another person. For Example if a guy named "Mo" lived in the time of Christ and decided to write the wonders he witnessed Christ do, why would he not take the credit of writing the accounts he witnessed, and calling it "The Gospel according to Mo", rather than the Gospel according to Mathew?
If you have just arrived on this planet, let me tell you that it is quite common to take credit for ones achievements here. Most authors, writers, artists, engineers and scientists etc., do it as common practice.
I think Spinoza has dealt with with other misconceptions of your article really well. Dig deep, and ponder the deceptions of the Quran before you answer.
"People living in glass houses should really avoid throwing stones." |
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Unknown 234
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ^ sorry I don't know how that happened. The above post was written by me. |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Balfas wrote:
| Quote: | | WHY MUST ACCORDING TO????? IT IS NOT MADE SENSE, WHY ACCORDING ??? AND IT IS POSSIBLE THAT MATHEW DID NOT WRITE MATHEW BECAUSE IT IS ACCORDING TO, DO YOU UNDERSTAND???? |
Dear Balfas,
Who wrote the Quran? Why can't we say that the Quran reflects the opinion of it author(s)?
Best regards,
Rand |
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adnan
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | man , i know christianity, but this religion is not the one that i want. i have learned christianity but eventually there are a lot of contradictions that i've found in christianity. |
balfas, thats the thing. every religion has contradictions. all of them are lies, they were all false prophets.
god may exist, but we havent gotten a message from him till this point.
if god revealed a message, he would make sure no one could call it bad. he'd make sure it had evidence so no one could call the messenger a false prophet. leave islam like i left.
adnan |
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Unknown 271
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 5:59 pm Post subject: WHO WROTE THE QUR'AN?? |
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HI RAND AND ADNAN HOW ARE YOU?
THE QUR'AN SPEAKS ITSELF ABOUT WHO WROTE THE BOOK
THE ANSWER IS
82. Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. (HOLY QURAN 4:82)
THIS AYAT(VERSE) IS A BOMBASTIC AYAT BECAUSE IT IS NOT ONLY CONFIRMING WHO THE ONE WHO WROTE THE QUR'AN BUT AT THE SAME TIME HE(GOD THE ALMIGHTY) CHALENGING FOR ANY ONE WHO TAKING OTHER BOOK AS THEIR WAY OF LIFE WOULD FINE A LOT OF ERRORS/ DISCREPANCIES/ CONTRADICTIONS IN THEIR BOOKS.
FOR E.G BIBLE/NEW AND OLD TESTAMENT AND ANY OTHER BOOKS.(ACCORDING TO....WHO?? I DONT BELEIVE THAT MATTHEW WROTE MATTHEW BECAUSE ITS ONLY ACCORDING TO.AND IT IS POSSIBLE CAN BE SOMEBODY ELSE, THIS IS ABSOLUTELY BIG ERRORS , THEY DONT KNOW WHO WROTE WHO, I THINK MATTHEW WOULD BE VERY ANGRY IF HE SEE THE BIBLE WRITTEN ACCORDING TO HIM, BECAUSE HE COULD MAKE A MISTAKE, UNDERSTAND?? )
PLEASE NOTE IAM NOT A FANATIC BUT THIS BOOK IS REALLY STRESSING US TO GET THE KNOWLEDGE FROM ANY BOOKS, AND THE KEY IS YOU WOULD FOUND A FALSE BOOK IF IT HAS AN ERRORS INSIDE.
AND THIS BOOK WAS SENT DOWN IN ARABIC, ANY ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS(IF YOU'VE FOUND DIFFERENCES) IS ONLY A MATTER OF CHOICE OF WORDS(BASED ON THE OPINION OF THE TRANSLATORS)
SO IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE REAL MEANING OF QUR'AN , I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEARN ARABIC
THIS IS THE TRUTH.
LEARN AGAIN , WE STILL HAVE TIME TO LEARN BEFORE WE ABSOLUTELY STOP(THE DAY WE DIE)
AND NO BOOKS IN THE FACE OF THE EARTH THAT CONFIRMING WHAT IS INSIDE THE QUR'AN. |
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adnan
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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haalo balfas
| Quote: | 82. Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. (HOLY QURAN 4:82)
THIS AYAT(VERSE) IS A BOMBASTIC AYAT BECAUSE IT IS NOT ONLY CONFIRMING WHO THE ONE WHO WROTE THE QUR'AN |
yes i can see how you can see the ayat as bombastic. when i was muslim, i got shudders in my spine when i read ayats like that (honestly).
see, that ayat is not proof that Quran is from god. I could write something like that in my own false revelation and claim it to be God. Mohammed was just very strong and clever.. he was excellent in brainwashing other relatively mentally weak individuals.
Adnan |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Balfas,
Balfas wrote:
| Quote: | | SO IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE REAL MEANING OF QUR'AN , I RECOMMEND YOU TO LEARN ARABIC |
Ibn Warraq's "What the Koran really says: Language, Text and Commentary. pages 23-24:
| Quote: | | Muslims in general have a tendency to disarm any criticisms of Islam and in particular the Koran by asking if the critic has read the Koran in the original Arabic, as though all the difficulties of their sacred text will somhow disappear once the reader has mastered the holy language and has direct experience, aural and visual, of the very words of God, to which no translation can do justice. ...First, of course, the majority of Muslims are not Arabs or Arabic speaking people. ... Even for contemporary Arabic-speaking peoples, reading the Koran is far from being a straightforward manner. The Koran is putatively(as we shall see, it is very difficult to decide exactly what the language of the Koran is) written in what we call Classical Arabic, but modern Arab populations, leaving aside the problem of illiteracy in Arab countries, do not speak, read, or write, let alone think in Classical Arabic. |
===
You seem to be implying that Allah wrote the Quran.
Ibn Warraq: Why I am not a Muslim page 107 writes:
| Quote: | Even Bell and Watt, who can hardly be accused of being hostile to Islam admit that
The assumption that God is himself the speaker in every passage, however leads to difficulties. Frequently God is referred to in the third person. It is no doubt allowable for a speaker to refer to himself in the third person occassionally, but the extent to which we find the prophet apparently being addressed and told about God in the third person is unusual. It has, in fact, been made a matter of ridicule that in the Quran God is made to swear by himself. That he uses oaths in some of the passages beginning, "I swear (not)..." can hardly be denied [e.g., 75:1, 2;90,91]...."By thy Lord," however, is difficult in the mouth of God....Now there is one passage which everyone acknowledges to be spoken by angels, namely 19:64: "We come not down but by command of thy Lord; to him belongs what is before us and what is behind us and what is between that; nor is thy Lord forgetful, Lord of the heavens and the earth and what is between them; so serve him, and endure patiently in his service; knowest thou to him a namesake?"
In 37:161-166 it is almost equally clear that angels are the speakers. This once admitted can be extended to passages in which it is not so clear. In fact, difficulties in many passages are removed by interpreting the "we" of angels rather than of God himself in the plural of majesty. It is not always easy to distinguish between the two, and nice questions arise in places where there is a sudden change from God being spoken of in the third person to "we" claiming to do things usually ascribed to God, e.g., 6.99, 25.45. |
| Quote: | [2.40] O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid.
[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear. |
It might be tempting from the Ibn Warraq passage to conclude that an angel wrote the entire Koran, but 2:40-2:41 as well as other verses refer to God in the first person. Hence, there must have been multiple authors God and some angels.
Best regards,
Rand |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Balfas wrote:
| Quote: | THE QUR'AN SPEAKS ITSELF ABOUT WHO WROTE THE BOOK
THE ANSWER IS
82. Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. (HOLY QURAN 4:82) |
Dear Balfas,
I consider 4:82 to be a logical fallacy:
1. The Quran spends much time discussing issues that are beyond human experience. The Quran discusses details of biblical characters. But if one accepts that the NT/OT are corrupt, then we lack historical records to verify this history. The Quran discusses hell, heaven and the last day but we lack verification of this outside the Quran. The Quran claims that Allah spoke to the Apostle, but other than the apostle there were no witnesses. Being intellectually honest, one cannot conclude that there are no discrepancies.
2. To imply that there are no discrepancies, but there are abrogated verses is problematic. An abrogated verse is practicaly an open admission of a mistake.
Ibn Warraq p73 of What the Koran really says quotes Robinson's Discovering the Quran:
| Quote: | | A second reason for scepticism about the classical theory of abrogation is that there has never been a consensus among jurists about which Quranic passages it affects. Az-Zuhri(d. 742) an early authority on the subject, held that 42 ayahs(verses) had been abrogated. After his time, the number steadly increased until an upper limit was reached in the eleventh century, wih Ibn Salama claiming that there are 238 abrogated ayahs, and al-Farisi claiming that there are 248. In subsequent generations, a reaction set in: the Egptian polymath al-Suyuti (d. 505) claimed that there were only 20, and Shah Wali Allah of Delhi (d. 1762) whittled the number to 5. |
Ibn warraq then adds a-Nahhas , 138 and Ibn al-Ataiqi 231.
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| Quote: | 002.106
YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
PICKTHAL: Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?
SHAKIR: Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things? |
3. It is clear that sunnis and shiites, and quran-only muslims, different commentators, etc. interpret quran differently. It is clear that at least one of them are wrong. It is clear that humans are imperfect. Let's assume the Quran is 100.000% correct. A human muslim will incorrectly interpret the Quran. Therefore if a human muslim were to translate a quran, that quran would contain a discrepancy. So how can one say that the Quran does not contain a discrepancy?
4. Some people interpret the Quran as saying the earth is flat, others that it is round. Since the 7th century, some people believe that the world is flat others that it is round.
Is it logical if a flat-earth person concludes that the Quran must be from Allah because it says the earth is flat? Is it logical for a flat earth person to not accept Allah because he believes that the Quran assumes the earth is round?
When humans are fallible, the test of 4.82 is fallible.
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Why would Allah use a logical fallacy to prove the Quran? This logical fallacy may deceive a layperson, but it would not fool a logical scholar. Why should a logical scholar burn in hell, for not believing in a logical fallacy? If Allah is all-wise, shouldn't He recognize the logical fallacy? Why didn't he provide a real proof?
Best regards,
Rand |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Balfas wrote:
| Quote: | THE QUR'AN SPEAKS ITSELF ABOUT WHO WROTE THE BOOK
THE ANSWER IS
82. Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. (HOLY QURAN 4:82) |
Dear Balfas,
I consider 4:82 to be a logical fallacy:
1. The Quran spends much time discussing issues that are beyond human experience. The Quran discusses details of biblical characters. But if one accepts that the NT/OT are corrupt, then we lack historical records to verify this history. The Quran discusses hell, heaven and the last day but we lack verification of this outside the Quran. The Quran claims that Allah spoke to the Apostle, but other than the apostle there were no witnesses. Being intellectually honest, one cannot conclude that there are no discrepancies.
2. To imply that there are no discrepancies, but there are abrogated verses is problematic. An abrogated verse is practicaly an open admission of a mistake.
Ibn Warraq p73 of What the Koran really says quotes Robinson's Discovering the Quran:
| Quote: | | A second reason for scepticism about the classical theory of abrogation is that there has never been a consensus among jurists about which Quranic passages it affects. Az-Zuhri(d. 742) an early authority on the subject, held that 42 ayahs(verses) had been abrogated. After his time, the number steadly increased until an upper limit was reached in the eleventh century, wih Ibn Salama claiming that there are 238 abrogated ayahs, and al-Farisi claiming that there are 248. In subsequent generations, a reaction set in: the Egptian polymath al-Suyuti (d. 505) claimed that there were only 20, and Shah Wali Allah of Delhi (d. 1762) whittled the number to 5. |
Ibn warraq then adds a-Nahhas , 138 and Ibn al-Ataiqi 231.
===
| Quote: | 002.106
YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
PICKTHAL: Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?
SHAKIR: Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things? |
3. It is clear that sunnis and shiites, and quran-only muslims, different commentators, etc. interpret quran differently. It is clear that at least one of them are wrong. It is clear that humans are imperfect. Let's assume the Quran is 100.000% correct. A human muslim will incorrectly interpret the Quran. Therefore if a human muslim were to translate a quran, that quran would contain a discrepancy. So how can one say that the Quran does not contain a discrepancy?
4. Some people interpret the Quran as saying the earth is flat, others that it is round. Since the 7th century, some people believe that the world is flat others that it is round.
Is it logical if a flat-earth person concludes that the Quran must be from Allah because it says the earth is flat? Is it logical for a flat earth person to not accept Allah because he believes that the Quran assumes the earth is round?
When humans are fallible, the test of 4.82 is fallible.
===
Why would Allah use a logical fallacy to prove the Quran? This logical fallacy may deceive a layperson, but it would not fool a logical scholar. Why should a logical scholar burn in hell, for not believing in a logical fallacy? If Allah is all-wise, shouldn't He recognize the logical fallacy? Why didn't He provide a real proof?
Best regards,
Rand |
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Unknown 234
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: WHO WROTE THE QUR'AN?? |
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| balfas wrote: |
THIS AYAT(VERSE) IS A BOMBASTIC AYAT BECAUSE IT IS NOT ONLY CONFIRMING WHO THE ONE WHO WROTE THE QUR'AN BUT AT THE SAME TIME HE(GOD THE ALMIGHTY) CHALENGING FOR ANY ONE WHO TAKING OTHER BOOK AS THEIR WAY OF LIFE WOULD FINE A LOT OF ERRORS/ DISCREPANCIES/ CONTRADICTIONS IN THEIR BOOKS. |
Balfas,
Maybe you can answer the discrepancies in the Quran, mentioned on various topics on this forrum, instead of standing on a pulpit and preaching (literaly) how great it is. You sound like a fanatic mullah at a Jummah service.
I can't figure out how you think you can impress people with some obsure ayat from the Quran that claims its own authencity. How "Bombastic" does that make it? For your information it is called Circular Reasoning. The Quran defends itself while claiming that it is the word of God, and then putting out a challange, based on this presumtion. Really how do you figure that to be great? This scare tactic is meant for gullible muslims like yourself. You call it "Bombastic", I call it Ironic.
Ask yourself this question. If the Quran was really a miracle would God not be instanteneous in his revelations? Why did it take 23 years (Had Mohammed lived any longer probably you would have additional ayats added to it.) for revelations to come down? Why did God not speak directly to Mohammed, instead of sending the so-called Angel Gabriel to convey his revelations?
Before judging other books, open your eyes to the discrepancies and deciets present in the Quran. Believe me you will find numereous.
P.S: Kindly tone down the "CAPS". Your message does'nt become any more effective or eloquent, using them.
Regards. |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:07 am Post subject: |
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Dear Balfas,
| Quote: | | 82. Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. (HOLY QURAN 4:82) |
| Quote: | | [2.26] Surely Allah is not ashamed to set forth any parable-- (that of) a gnat or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that Allah means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! but He does not cause to err by it (any) except the transgressors, |
| Quote: | | [4.88] What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. |
| Quote: | | [6.39] And they who reject Our communications are deaf and dumb, in utter darkness; whom Allah pleases He causes to err and whom He pleases He puts on the right way. |
Let's assume a person reads a parable or quranic verse and sees a discrepancy. This would disprove the Quran, right? Allah himself admits that people will see discrepancies. Now the Quran would argue that there are no discrepancies, it is Allah or Satan that is causing this person to see a discrepancy.
If I read Shakespeare I'll notice human errors, if I read Quran I'll notice human errors. The only difference, is that with the Quran, the Quran would argue that it is Allah that causes me to think there are errors when there really aren't.
Suppose I gave you a text of Shakespeare but I added a verse:
"This book contains no errors. If a reader sees an errors, it is because Allah causes him/her to see these errors. Allah says there are no errors."
Would that prove that to you that the Shakespeare text has no errors? Further, in the Quran, or in the verse I added to Shakespeare, there is no proof that Allah tries to cause preople to see errors.
It s this lack of falsifiability that demonstratres that 4.82 is a logical fallacy.
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Balfas, when you notice problems in the NT, you were able to discard it. But using quranic logic, you could argue that Satan or that Allah is causing you to disbelieve. With such logic you can accept polytheism, tooth fairies, etc. as true, it is just Satan that s causing you to be skeptical of these ideas.
Best regards,
Rand |
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