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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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 Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:33 am Post subject: |
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rand wrote:
| Quote: | | Who determines who is a scholar? |
Assalamu Alaikum rand,
Yes, very complex issue – the accreditation rights of some agencies be thay tutorial, school and/or academic. And very commercially orientated lately too, on all levels.
As far as Muslim scholars are concerned I remember a few years ago I was researching some Islamic periodicals in one of the local universities for an essay on Islamic education. There, among the hundreds of articles I spotted one describing the way Islamic scholars in the past used to issue the equivalent of diplomas to their students and what they were called and what for. Unfortunately, I did not copy it because it did not fit my exact needs. However I remember roughly where it is still and when I go there again I will try to find it.
Meanwhile, you can read on this article and get the feel of it:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/paksmit/message/3994?source=1
Wassalam |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 5:47 am Post subject: |
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Dear Stopnot,
The article you cited wrote:
| Quote: | Simply put, a scholar may be defined as: an upright and sincere Muslim who, after having been trained in the religious sciences, is capable of closely examining the primary and secondary sources of Islam and then
employing careful thought, in the form of recognized analytic principles
and sound legal reasoning, to derive a reliable Islamic opinion on a given
matter. |
The article addresses the question, once we accept Islam as being true, how can we know which school of thought or which interpretation is correct.
But I want to know which religion is true. If I defne a Christian scholar as one that believes in and is knowldgable about Christianity, I will accept much of Christianity, but that does not prove that Christianity is true. If Christianiry is true, I would want to follow the believing Christian scholars, but if it is a false religion, I'd prefer to follow the readings of the non-believing Christian scholars.
Ibn Warraq is an Islamic Scholar. There are many scholars that read Islamic texts and believe in them, while other Islamic scholars disbelieve in them. How can one know which side is right?
Best regards,
Rand |
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bread
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| stopnot wrote: | Bread wrote:
| Quote: | | I accept the format you proposed. You may answer my questions using it. I will reply like wise. |
Assalamu Alaikum bread,
Finally I hear some common cense approach. After you recover from your mourning don’t forget to fill the empty spaces in the form I provided you with for the academic presentation of your issue.
I understand it will take you some time for that but do not delay it too much otherwise Spinoza will get back to grinding my balls off again. Please, have mercy on me.
Wassalam |
I already issued you the material. Please answer in the scholarly manner you proposed. I will reply likewise. Now go ahead and do it, and do not delay any longer. It is geting ridiculous.
as far as that vile expression you used, ``grinding your -----`` I dont believe that is part of the scholarly method. We can easily do without it. Please refraain from it. |
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everybee
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 858
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bread
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Yes, but those are old news. Islam always committed and abetted paedophilia, conquest, slavery, genocide and perpetual wars in every land it set its foot. It has been doing it for the last 1400 years. And it will continue to do it as long as it exists.
It is unreformable Arab fascism and imperialism and it claims divine blessings for its terorristic, genpcidal views, and it claims inerrancy.
This is onlöy new to the West, but the rest of the world as well as its Muslim prisoners (those who try to leave Islam are condemned to death) knew of this death cult and its dangerous precepts for centuries.
Its a good thing that the Western world wakes up. Together with the other great powers, Islam can be rolled back just like Naziism and Japanese imperialism was. And the internet will also help, unmasking the numerous errors of th Quan, much as Muslamoid apologists try to avoid this issue. 
Islam cannot survive scientific cross-examination. |
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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Assalamu Alaikum bread,
This is a list of all your post so far in this topic:
1. Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 5:54 pm
2. Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 6:33 pm
3. Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 7:22 pm
4. Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 8:00 pm
5. Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:39 pm
6. Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:21 am
7. Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:01 am
8. Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:47 am
9. Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 1:42 pm
10. Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:04 pm
11. Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 3:19 am
12. Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 10:41 am
13. Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 8:59 pm
14. Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 10:50 am
You have only raised some issues in the first one. This issue is a concern for you alone because it falls within the scholarly response known as “SO WHAT?”
In other words, if it is an issue for you – you deal with it!
[I cite “Thesis or Question: The "So What?" Test” found at OWL, Purdue University,
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/workshops/hypertext/ResearchW/cares.html]
In the list of all your post so far in this topic there is not a single coherent question directed at me! In other words, what do you want me to answer when there is no question?
Out of all your issues you might have can you concentrate and chose only one, please.
I see that you have cited one chapter and verse from the Quran – is that it?
If not – what exactly is it?
If I were you I would chose the one I am most familiar with.
Please, can you concentrate and formulate a question directly referring to your issue and post it to me.
After all, the majority of MA and PhD theses are one sentence statements to be answered with a one sentence research question. Only after these two critical condenses such documents go on for about 50,000 and 100,000 words respectively.
Forget the form I posted for your easiness – it has just proven to be too difficult for you to put the info in the empty spaces provided.
Wassalam |
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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Rand wrote:
| Quote: | | But I want to know which religion is true. |
Assalamu Alaikum rand,
Sorry but I cannot help you with this issue.
| Quote: | | Ibn Warraq is an Islamic Scholar. There are many scholars that read Islamic texts and believe in them, while other Islamic scholars disbelieve in them. How can one know which side is right? |
This is a problem in all professions in life. Let me draw you a parallel or two:
All lawyers study and practice one and the same law and appear in front of one and the same court of law and yet some lawyers are preffered and more winning than others.
All medical doctors study and practice one and the same medical law and practice it in one and the same type of hospitals and yet some medical doctors are preferred and more successful at curing patients.
However, some doctors are at the ethical boundaries of their profession and are treating patients so that they die quicker. This medical(?) practice is known as euthanasia.
In my view, as a Muslim Ibn Warraq is practicing euthanasia within Islam to other Muslims. The question is whether such practice is Islamic?
Wassalam |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Stopnot wrote:
| Quote: | | What counts with me is the scholarly credentials of the source be it Muslim and/or not Muslim. If you tell me that Joe Blow down the road told you that Islam sucks don’t expect this to curdle the milk in my coffee. News media will be ok if the majority of world news media run with the said story. Since you are entering into a mine field called Tafsir I do not worry that much about news media bias. |
Stopnot wrote:
| Quote: | | In my view, as a Muslim Ibn Warraq is practicing euthanasia within Islam to other Muslims. The question is whether such practice is Islamic? |
Dear Stopnot,
I'll try to express my view, and perhaps you can comment.
The Quran tries to undermine polytheism. Many muslim web sites are critical of christianity, judaism, hinduism, etc. One should not believe in false religions/ideas, and if judaism, christianity, polytheism, etc. are false, then honestly undermining is healthy. However, if one of those religions are true, then it is arguably wrong to undermine it. But even so, questioning it, pointing out problems, forces one to obtain a better understanding of the true religion. Similarly, if the Quran/Islam is false, then if ibn warraq honestly undermines Islam, then that is good, but if Islam is the true religion, then it is arguably wrong.
You seem to indicate that we obtain truth via authority. However, there are different schools of thought. I can search the web and find dozens of books/sources that represent traditional muslim theology and others that are critical of Islam. Relying on authority does not help.
In order to determine which side is right one needs to use their own mind. One should listen to different perspectives and use one's own reason to determine which one makes the most sense. Some muslims accept hadith, others reject them, one needs to examine the evidence.
| Quote: | | In my view, as a Muslim Ibn Warraq is practicing euthanasia within Islam to other Muslims. The question is whether such practice is Islamic? |
That is not the question. Imagine Islam is a false religion. Suppose Islam is a lie, and your whole life is a lie, and you've been fooled by an imposter, and you lie to others supporting this nonsense, why would it bother you that Ibn Warraq pointed out that to you?
When I listen to a truth seeker, to an intelligent person, I find it respectful to ask questions. They want to be challenged, if their ideas cannot withstand questioning, they'll modify their ideas. They usually aren't embarrassed as they generally have a very thoughtful response. It is only disrespectful to ask questions to a simple person, who only cares about their ego. By asking questions, I'll demonstrate that they are clueless. So I might not bother at times.
If Islam were the truth it should welcome questions by ibn warraq, and others. Unfortunately, Islam, very early on, beginning with the quran, realized that its ideas cannot compete in the public domain. So it stifles any questions.
Best wishes,
Rand |
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Devon
Joined: 15 Jun 2002
Posts: 38
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Stopnot........take note that when I say Death to Islam I am literally referring to the Death of this wanton Ideology.......not Muslims.....Hence I added freedom to all Muslims the world over........Muslims are not my enemy..............not in the least........Islam is.........I have been blessed to know many many fine Muslims from devout to secular.......My first gal was a Sunni Turk and my best buddy today is an ex Sunni from Trinidad!
My target is Islam and Islam alone........and I never forget the words of those much wiser then me here..........Muslims are the first victims of Islam...
I know of course you do not agree.......but never think that I hate Muslims or anyone else I may disagree with.......this is not to be taken personally!! |
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bread
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Stopnot, although I have asked you a clear question, you spent the better part of 4 pages on this thread, to mysitfy and avoid answering. You only gave us a few links to a rather lame university undergrad course in comparative religions. You still have to answer the question, but you are totally incapable of that.
You have not posted the sources of Sunni orthodox material held in authorit by Sunni Muslims. I believe you are innocent of logic, Islamic knowledge or that you have ever been a Muslim. Sorry, but you are an American yuppy who might have took a course in Islam. You tell us of your degrees and still do not answer a simple question.
There is nothing of substance you have offered here. There is no aswer you provided, nay you have no clue about Islmaic sources period.
Your great zeal to inform us about your supposed degrees in Islam are bellied by your complete and utter innocence of the issue.
Yopu proved a coward and a liar, a braggart and an incompertent in defending the supposed religion you have, i.e. Islam, and the Quran`S claim of inerrancy. I showed you one error never before spotted and written about. There are hundreds more. You cannot even deal with the first one.
So long,
it was entertaining to deal with an arrogant ignoramus.
PS: I hope you never walk into a mosque and say such stupid things, or your beloved Muslims would slice you like a cabage.
If you wish to entertain future discussions with me, PM me with the answer first, then I will take you by the hand and teach you about Islam. (by the way, it so happens that some of those lame Islmaic teachers who brain wash you at that uni, learned at my foot the art of Da`wah targeted to the Western fools). |
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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 4:17 am Post subject: |
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Bread wrote:
| Quote: | | Yopu proved a coward and a liar, a braggart and an incompertent in defending the supposed religion you have, i.e. Islam, and the Quran`S claim of inerrancy. I showed you one error never before spotted and written about. There are hundreds more. You cannot even deal with the first one. |
Another looser bites the dust, bread, who thought he could walk the walk and talk the talk.
You reminded me of when I travel abroad and little kids come near and try to practice their English on me. You could see their eyes full of desire to come and try to impress you with their innocent “Hallow” and “I love you”, sayings they most likely have learned from TV and movies. Very soon though, they realise that this is the end of their vocabulary because even when they try to gesticulate some meaning into what they are trying to say, alas, there is no flow of conversation.
You Bread behaved like such kids. With your first response to my first post in this topic you jumped on the opportunity to impress me that you can speak my language, the language of scholars and academic researchers. See for yourself what you posted on Sun Sep 28, 2003 8:00 pm:
| Quote: | | If you are an Islamic scholar, I challenge you to come to a thread I made and prove to me your points. … I can discuss this one with you too on another thread, if you so wish. |
With my next post to you I told you the following on Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:35 am:
| Quote: | | I am not an Islamic Scholar, yet, but do have Masters Degree. I am not easily challenged to prove anything nowadays. |
Yet, you kept on pestering me with your rubbish. And so it went all the way until now when you still try, like a little kid trying his/her English on a foreigner, to form one proper sentence and to design a single coherent research question. Alas, you fail like these little kids!
Even others who came out to support you also failed and complained that my comments about Spinoza have left you with the memory of unpleasant aftertaste in your mouth.
BREAD, YOU DO NOT SPEAK SCHOLARLY LANGUAGE!!!
KEEP ON DREAMING, LOOSER!!! |
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Piggy
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 835
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 4:56 am Post subject: Scholarly Language |
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| stopnot wrote: | BREAD, YOU DO NOT SPEAK SCHOLARLY LANGUAGE!!!
KEEP ON DREAMING, LOOSER!!! |
The scholarly accepted spelling is.... L O S E R. 
But I don't agree that Bread is one.
Bread has managed to see the truth about Islam's lies and deceit, and should be commended for using his intelligence and common-sense.
Bread has freed his mind from the grip of the Islamic retrograde thinking and its supression of humanist potential.
I would describe Bread as a WINNER. |
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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:15 am Post subject: |
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Piggy wrote:
| Quote: | | I would describe Bread as a WINNER. |
Piggy, don’t let loser such as brad fool you because when in the company of losers some looser may be seen as bigger that the rest and thus could be termed as winners.
Nevertheless, a loser is a loser is a loser!
Wassalam |
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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:21 am Post subject: |
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Rand wrote:
| Quote: | Stopnot wrote:
Quote:
In my view, as a Muslim Ibn Warraq is practicing euthanasia within Islam to other Muslims. The question is whether such practice is Islamic?
That is not the question.
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Assalamu Alaikum rand,
Well, in my view it is a valid question because if you continue with my parallel then you will discover that medical doctors who practice euthanasia can and in fact are often being removed from practicing medicine by the relevant authority. Some are even taken to court for murder and/or assisted murder/suicide by another authority. Dr. Philip Nitschke is a world wide [in]famous leader of this medical[?] practice.
The Question is: If some medial doctors, by the virtue of practicing medicine in specific medico-ethical manners, can be declared not to be doctors any longer by the relevant authorities why then some Muslims and/or non-Muslim could not also be declared no longer capable of dealing with Islamic matters by their respective relevant authorities?
| Quote: | | Relying on authority does not help. In order to determine which side is right one needs to use their own mind. |
Even in the most liberal cense we all do rely on authority from the credal to the grave and do practice some form of use of our own mind. And I do not say this apologetically at all. From birth, school, work, aging and finally dieing we do rely on authorities and do use of our own mind.
In Islam too there are authorities and as well as the use of our own mind in the form of personal opinion, known as ra’i. The Quran encourages Muslims to use ra’i.
What you have been reading for the last four pages posted by me in this topic is ra’i. No one has told me what to write or not to write and post here yet I have not breached Islamic tenets.
On the other hand I agree with you that from the very beginning some Muslims did have problems with ra’i and have resorted to the idea that authorities will protect the individual. These same problems do exist today but are thinning down.
Western societies operated very similarly until very recently but now the protection of the individual from the powers of the state/authorities is far more secure.
I hope this is seen as some answers. I am tired of being accused of not responding to questions.
Wassalam |
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Mullah Mo
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 470
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| stopnot wrote: | Piggy wrote:
| Quote: | | I would describe Bread as a WINNER. |
Piggy, don’t let loser such as brad fool you because when in the company of losers some looser may be seen as bigger that the rest and thus could be termed as winners.
Nevertheless, a loser is a loser is a loser!
Wassalam |
Are you reduced to name calling now?? Is that what Muslims do when they can’t defend Islam?? I’m not a scholar. I just want to clarify that before we proceed. If you want to start the “name calling, slick talking, street slang busting” don’t pick on bread. I’m the man you’re looking for. |
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Mullah Mo
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 470
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| stopnot wrote: |
Nevertheless, a loser is a loser is a loser!
Wassalam |
Lets start with the biggest. You for one. inshallah!!! |
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Spinoza
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Another looser bites the dust, bread, who thought he could walk the walk and talk the talk. |
Well I have yet to see you put your foot down. You're scared. You're scared of getting shred to pieces by Bread. And he's 'just a kid'!
| Quote: | You reminded me of when I travel abroad and little kids come near and try to practice their English on me. You could see their eyes full of desire to come and try to impress you with their innocent “Hallow” and “I love you”, sayings they most likely have learned from TV and movies. Very soon though, they realise that this is the end of their vocabulary because even when they try to gesticulate some meaning into what they are trying to say, alas, there is no flow of conversation.
You Bread behaved like such kids. With your first response to my first post in this topic you jumped on the opportunity to impress me that you can speak my language, the language of scholars and academic researchers. <snip> |
Hehe, this is pathetic. This scholar just keeps bragging and bragging about his Masters Degree and the proper ‘scholarly level of debate’ but fail to put a stake down in the ground and defend it.
You’re, what is called in scholarly terms a ‘Follis Aurae’ a ‘Folliculus Aurae’ even. (that’s a windbag)
| Quote: | | Yet, you kept on pestering me with your rubbish. And so it went all the way until now when you still try, like a little kid trying his/her English on a foreigner, to form one proper sentence and to design a single coherent research question. Alas, you fail like these little kids! |
This is so childish: attacking the FORM instead of the content. It’s even below childish: it is indeed cowardly and dishonest. If I were to say: wan pluz wan iz too, would I still be speaking the truth? Yes! Of course I would, even if it is written using unconventional spelling.
| Quote: | | Even others who came out to support you also failed and complained that my comments about Spinoza have left you with the memory of unpleasant aftertaste in your mouth. |
Well, why don’t you try me or Bread in a debate? Why do you resort to woolly language and yet fail to write anything of substance?
| Quote: | | BREAD, YOU DO NOT SPEAK SCHOLARLY LANGUAGE!!! |
Yes he does, I AM a scholar and I can read and understand his stuff really well. Most of what he writes is very clear, compact, to the point and verifiably true. Remember: this is the internet not a paper ready for publishing.
| Quote: | | KEEP ON DREAMING, LOOSER!!! |
Ah, so this is scholarly?  It’s spelled ‘loser’, you no good for nothing Follis Aurae. |
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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Spinoza wrote:
| Quote: | | Yes he does, I AM a scholar and I can read and understand his stuff really well. |
Assalamu Alaikum Spinoza,
Then, perhaps, I can take your comment aboard:
| Quote: | | This is so childish: attacking the FORM instead of the content. It’s even below childish: it is indeed cowardly and dishonest. |
I have never been afraid to be shred to pieces, as you put it, by my peers, be that Spinoza or who ever else whatsoever.
However, if you are indeed a scholar and are familiar with classification systems and/or comparative methods for evaluating purposes then how would you evaluate your statement:
| Quote: | | Ah, so this is scholarly? It’s spelled ‘loser’, you no good for nothing Follis Aurae. |
Wouldn’t you agree, by any chance, that you are also attaching the FORM [a spelling mistake] instead of the content [ a statement of fact]?
Wouldn’t you agree that since you resort to classify me bellow childish level of expertise, then if you excel in the same discipline then you have to classify yourself far bellow my level of, supposedly, coward and dishonest scholarly attitude?
How would you evaluate your own attitude towards me this time?
| Quote: | | Well, why don’t you try me or Bread in a debate? |
Spinoza, I beg you to go back to your doctor and tell him that whatever he described to you does not work and that he has to continue experimenting for your own sake. I don’t know what kind of doctor you go to but I will be kind this time and opine that you go an optometrist because obviously you could not see my own quote to bread when I told him long time ago now, from the very beginning on Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:35 am:
| Quote: | | I am not an Islamic Scholar, yet, but do have Masters Degree. I am not easily challenged to prove anything nowadays. |
Can you dig this?
Wassalam |
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bread
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I guess after this latest outburts by this Islamic fundamentalist wannabe, who so kindly informed us of his high scholarship, thought no one asked him about it, the title question of this thread has indeed been answered.
This is exactly what the impact of the Internet will be: the mask of Islamic tolerance and civilisad debate will drop nd the true ugly, brutal, arrogant and intolerant face of Islam will come out.
Does anyone here believe that Stopnot has been engaging in scholarly discussion and that his outburst and language befitts a self-proclaimed scholar? |
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Spinoza
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| stopnot wrote: | Spinoza wrote:
| Quote: | | Yes he does, I AM a scholar and I can read and understand his stuff really well. |
Assalamu Alaikum Spinoza, |
Please don't greet me like that. I am no Muslim nor do I wish to be greated as one.
| Quote: | | I have never been afraid to be shred to pieces, as you put it, by my peers, be that Spinoza or who ever else whatsoever. |
Well, put you r money where your mouth is and engage.
| Quote: | However, if you are indeed a scholar and are familiar with classification systems and/or comparative methods for evaluating purposes then how would you evaluate your statement: | Quote: | | Ah, so this is scholarly? It’s spelled ‘loser’, you no good for nothing Follis Aurae. |
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The classification Follis Aurae is quite an accurate one for a windbag such as yourself.
| Quote: | | Wouldn’t you agree, by any chance, that you are also attaching the FORM [a spelling mistake] instead of the content [ a statement of fact]? |
Yes, I would, yet I am not the one cowering away from a debate.
| Quote: | | Wouldn’t you agree that since you resort to classify me bellow childish level of expertise, then if you excel in the same discipline then you have to classify yourself far bellow my level of, supposedly, coward and dishonest scholarly attitude? |
No, we would be on the exact same level, yet I will not run for cover every time someone wishes to engage in a meaningful debate.
| Quote: | | How would you evaluate your own attitude towards me this time? |
As plain honest and down to earth. Unlike a certain some one who is hiding behind a smug attitude.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Well, why don’t you try me or Bread in a debate? |
Spinoza, I beg you to go back to your doctor and tell him that whatever he described to you does not work and that he has to continue experimenting for your own sake. I don’t know what kind of doctor you go to but I will be kind this time and opine that you go an optometrist because obviously you could not see my own quote to bread when I told him long time ago now, from the very beginning on Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:35 am: |
Here you go again, instead of answering the question (something I HAVE done, even the silly ones) you choose to mock me. In a lame fashion I might add.
[quote] | Quote: | | I am not an Islamic Scholar, yet, but do have Masters Degree. I am not easily challenged to prove anything nowadays. |
No, you’re a rusty old fool and clinging on the one of the most hateful, idiotic, scientifically inaccurate and inhumane systems of belief. And yes, I can back up each of these
Very scholarly indeed, using 90’s slang.
”
You’re a coward. You ran away, yet Allah commended you to stand firm and face the infidels. |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Stopnot wrote regarding ibn warraq:
| Quote: | | The Question is: If some medial doctors, by the virtue of practicing medicine in specific medico-ethical manners, can be declared not to be doctors any longer by the relevant authorities why then some Muslims and/or non-Muslim could not also be declared no longer capable of dealing with Islamic matters by their respective relevant authorities? |
That begs the question of who are the relevant authorities, are they muslims or kafirs?
But if you think we should ban books with offensive contents, how about a book that contains the following or a cleric that believes in the following:
| Quote: | | [5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, |
| Quote: | | [7.124] 1 will certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, then will I crucify you all together. |
| Quote: | | [8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. |
| Quote: | | [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. |
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Regarding Ibn Warraq, I want to cite some of his writings and maybe you can explain why he is wrong, and why his writings are more offensive than the Quran.
Ibn Warraq "What the Koran really says: Language text and commentary" p65 writes:
| Quote: | Muslim scholars themselves, from the early days of Islam, have acknowledged the existence of variants. This tradition has led to the compilation of all variants in a mammoth work of eight volumes, Mu^jam al-qira^at al-qur^aniyyah, edited in Kuwait recently. This dictionary lists over ten thousand variants, of which about a thousand are variants of or deviations in the rasm (the basic(unpointed) form, shape, or drawing of the individual word). Gerd-R Puin, the German scholar most closely involved with the classification of the approximately sixteen thousand sheets or parchments of Koranic fragments discovered in Sana, Yemen, has uncovered even more variants in the rasm that were not found in the above-mentioned eight volume dictionary. By comparing the rasm of the Cairo Mushaf with a fragmentary Hijazi Mushaf consisting of eighty-three sheets, which can be tentatively dated to the early eighth century CE on stylistic grounds, Puin discovered that the deviations in the Hijazi Mushaf by far outnumber the deviations that have been recorded by the muslim authorities on the qiraat and which have been collected in the above mentioned encyclopedia. This observation is not specific to the Koranic manuscripts of Yemeni provenance, but it is true for more or less all of the extant manuscripts preserved in Hijazi style.
The Hijazi Korans show differences in the system of counting of verses from the two dozen or so schools of counting; even the sequence of suras is often at variance not only with the Standard Egyptian edition but with the sequence of suras as recorded for the Korans of Ibn Masud and Ubbay b. Kab. |
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Ibn Warraq p73 of What the Koran really says quotes Robinson's Discovering the Quran:
| Quote: | | A second reason for scepticism about the classical theory of abrogation is that there has never been a consensus among jurists about which Quranic passages it affects. Az-Zuhri(d. 742) an early authority on the subject, held that 42 ayahs(verses) had been abrogated. After his time, the number steadly increased until an upper limit was reached in the eleventh century, wih Ibn Salama claiming that there are 238 abrogated ayahs, and al-Farisi claiming that there are 248. In subsequent generations, a reaction set in: the Egptian polymath al-Suyuti (d. 505) claimed that there were only 20, and Shah Wali Allah of Delhi (d. 1762) whittled the number to 5. |
Ibn warraq then adds a-Nahhas , 138 and Ibn al-Ataiqi 231.
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Ibn Warraq: Why I am not a muslim page 13, quotes a Ibn Kammuna:
| Quote: | | Furthermore, the Koran contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar arabic words, and words used with other than their normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from their subjects. These and other such aberratons in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Koran's eloquence....To sum up, more than one hundred Koranic aberrations have been noted. |
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http://www.secularislam.org/research/origins.htm (Ibn warraq)
writes:
| Quote: | | While modern Muslims may be committed to an impossibly conservative position, Muslim scholars of the early years of Islam were far more flexible, realizing that parts of the Koran were lost, perverted, and that there were many thousand variants which made it impossible to talk of the Koran. For example, As-Suyuti (died 1505), one of the most famous and revered of the commentators of the Koran, quotes Ibn ‘Umar al Khattab as saying: "Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Quran, for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Quran has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available’" (As-Suyuti, Itqan, part 3, page 72). A’isha, the favorite wife of the Prophet, says, also according to a tradition recounted by as-Suynti, "During the time of the Prophet, the chapter of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When ‘Uthman edited the copies of the Quran, only the current (verses) were recorded" (73). |
Best wishes,
Rand |
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Unknown 282
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Rand wrote"
If Christianiry is true, I would want to follow the believing Christian scholars, but if it is a false religion, I'd prefer to follow the readings of the non-believing Christian scholars.
Rand, how can a non believing scholar be a Christian scholar? |
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