Faith Freedom International

TheNabi · Joined: 18 Nov 2002 Posts: 113 Location: New York

This is my attempt to refute Ali Sina’s bogus article called ‘Did Jesus Escape Crucifixion’.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/crucifixion.htm

Ali Sina stated in his opening paragraph the fact that so many Christians, with Biblical proof, believed that Jesus was crucified, whereas the Quran goes against such facts.

Now Ali Sina makes a crucial mistake in his analysis of what the Scripture is trying to portray in it’s narration of the Crucifixion story. He quotes a distorted verse, filled with editing to prove the fact that Muslims believe that Jesus was replaced on the cross by another man, based on the Scripture’s narration. Let’s look at a clean verse.

And their saying: “We have killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God!” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty. For God raised him to Himself; and God is Noble, Wise. (4:157-158)

First of all, no where in the Arabic will you see the verses mentioned above saying Jesus was raised to God in ‘body and soul’. Secondly if Ali Sina had basic knowledge of the Scripture he would know that no soul will return to God, or be raised to him till the Hereafter where all will be judged. One wonders what kind of story Ali Sina was reading.

As I see it this is what the verses are saying. It was a circulating story about the Jews killing Jesus the son of Mary. It was made to seem as if such a thing did happen though (the story being broadcast) and so the people believed in it. How could it be made to seem this way? Well it was a rumour, and we all know people can easily take to rumours as truth instead of conjecture. So this conjecture was being spoken among the people and after some time the people actually believed in such nonsense. They were made to believe that the crucifixion was true. The verse then points out how Jesus was not killed, or crucified, and nowhere does it say that Jesus was ‘replaced’ as our gullible Dr. Ali Sina tries to point out.

Ali Sina said that verses 4:157-158 were talking about heaven being a geographic place and God having a physical body. He says heaven must be physical because where else would Jesus’ body go if it were not spiritual, but physical. I’d like to know where it is implied in those verses that God has a physical body and where it is said in the verses that Jesus’ physical body was raised to heaven. Was there even talk of heaven/paradise in these verses or is Ali Sina, like our traditional Muslim friends making things up?

In an age where reason seems to be gradually declining among the populace where does Ali Sina get the implication that God has a physical throne? In the Scripture the throne of God is metaphorical and implies authority. Dr. Sina, there is no talk of God raising Jesus’ physical body to a heaven, nor of Jesus being replaced on the cross by another man. You too are made to believe in this crucifixion story, which is said/spoken amongst the people. You’re a perfect modern day example of the point the Scripture is pointing out about the people in verses 4:157-158, who were made to believe that Jesus was crucified at the words of others.

You then go on to talk about Nestorian Christians influencing this verse which you believe said ‘Jesus was replaced’. Your argument holds no ground as you have already wrongly interpreted the verse in question. Just as you claimed that Muhammad knew the New Testament only by second hand sources, I can likely claim that you know the Scripture by second hand sources and influences which are easily refuted by the Scripture itself.

Ali Sina also makes a mistake so crucial it is laughable, but I will respect the man because we are all free to have an opinion on what we know. He said that the Quran confuses Mary with Miriam because verses 19:27-28 calls Mary the sister of Aaron.

Then she came to her people carrying him. They said: “O Mary, you have come with something totally unexpected! O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!” (19:27-28 )

Dr. Sina, is it not possible for Mary, the mother of Jesus and daughter of Imran (66:12), to have a brother named Aaron? Can’t two Aaron’s exist in two different times? I know of an Aaron and I myself am a Joseph, not to mention my father is a Joseph as well. You are letting Biblical knowledge confuse you and it is pointless to compare the Bible to the Quran to try and correct it.

It is not the Quran that is mistaken Dr. Sina, it is you who are mistaken. Take care.

Joe
_________________
17:84 Say, "Everyone works in accordance with his belief, and your Lord knows best which ones are guided in the right path."

12:106 The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship.

MarkT · Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:19 pm Post subject:

Hey Joe, where you goin' with that gun in your hand?
_________________
"—to find one's happiness in truth, to oppose illusion, to value integrity above God, and character above salvation."

Kamel · Joined: 26 Jun 2002 Posts: 282

Hey Joe

Aren't you the fellow who ran away when confronted with the Quranic stupidity about cutting off the hands of the thief. You came up with the conclusion that there was contradiction in the Quran. You came up with that funny execuse just to appease your human impulses and reconcile it with killing, mutilatin and maiming manual that you have in your hands authored by the worst criminal in histoty.

I guess that manual teaches you also that the feeling of no shame can be earned if you keep feeling no shame.

TheNabi · Joined: 18 Nov 2002 Posts: 113 Location: New York

Peace Kamel Very Happy

You said:

Unknown 288 · Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 69

To TheNabi

Are you talking about those in parantheses? Those must be tafsir. And tafsir comes from the authorative qu'ran translators, so if you're not happy with the translation, go sue 'em...

Ali Sina actually raised a very good point. You don't like the translation? Fine. Let's say Jesus was raised. If physically and spiritually, then is the heaven also a physical place? How come we never knew about it then? If only spiritually, then where is the body of Jesus?

If memory serves me right, wasn't crucifixion a public spectacle? Must be quite a rumor if it could silence over thousands of witnesses... Confused

And careful studies have already suggested that the biblical stories in qu'ran actually comes from minor christian sects as their sources, which is why they're so different from the bible and torah version. Nabi, get a clue... Rolling Eyes

everybee · Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 858

Flavius Josephus was a Jewish historian around that time:

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/testimonium.htm

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/home.htm

TheNabi · Joined: 18 Nov 2002 Posts: 113 Location: New York

Peace Bag_of_Thoughts & Everybee

You stated:

everybee · Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 858

The idea of Jesus still being alive after 2000 years only serves to show the absurdity of Islam.

TheNabi · Joined: 18 Nov 2002 Posts: 113 Location: New York

Peace Everybee

You stated:

bush badee · Joined: 21 Nov 2002 Posts: 1442 Location: usa

Some of the answeres and discussion here show an absurd knowledge of Christianity and the NT.

The first question that must be answered before you can discuss how jesus died is, DID JESUS EXIST.

nOW MAKing that assumption, that he existed look at the NT.
The Muslims are correct.
It does say that he was pardoned.

The NT at least in English mixes metaphores.
It tosses a hebrew word in along with the English translation.
Most English speaking people do not know the meaning of that Hebrew word but those speaking Arabic do.

The crowd called for the release of Bar abbus.

Well if you read on in the NT you will find that the given name of Bar Abbus was Jesus.

Now most arabic speaking people know that "Bar" means "son of" and
Abbus means "the farthers"

So the people were out there calling for the release of "Jesus the son of the farthers" which is what the Christians call their messiah and Gd.

Now a few other things that most Christians are not aware of.

1 Jesus WAS the son of Gd.
But then again, all Jews considered themselves the sons of Gd as stated many times in the OT. In fact the ot says that they were the first born of Gd. Of course that is the metaphysical sons of Gd or the first to worship him.

2 Caiaphus WAS NOT THE JEWISH HIGH PRIEST.
He was a Roman appointed official.
He could not be the Jewish high priest because he was not a Zadike, a lineal descendent of Aaron the brother of Moses and he could not even be a Priest, because he was not a Levite, belonging to t he priestly tribe of the levites (Who to this day are considered priests in the Jewish synogogs.
I do not think he could even be a quire boy.

3 The Sanhedren could not try Jesus, it was dissolved in 65 BCE by the Romans and replaced by a high council of Roman appointees (50 instead of 71 I believe)

SO Jesus was tried by the Romans and executed by them, if he was executed.

Now who was calling "Give us Barbarus" Well certainly not the Jews.
It was the first night of Passover and according to Jewish law and custom, they were home telling their children about the exodus and couldn't be at any execution.

The problelm is in using the NT as a history book which it is not.

As to Joesephus, those paragraphs about Jesus were added much later by the Catholic Church.
Ditto the stuff written by Tacitus (Who's complete works I have) In fact that part of tacitus was not discovered till about the 12th century by an Italian who mirraculously discovered many othe documents supposedly supporting Christianity.

As Benny Bell used to sing,"If you want to believe it, it's true"

Now that is the historical perspective of the matter.

Personally being a horny old man, I prefer the stories about the tooth fairey. They have about as much historical value as the NT.
_________________
to answere directly email to
Bushbadee@aol.com

TheNabi · Joined: 18 Nov 2002 Posts: 113 Location: New York

Peace Bush

Laughing

Nice post.

Take care.

Joe
_________________
17:84 Say, "Everyone works in accordance with his belief, and your Lord knows best which ones are guided in the right path."

12:106 The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship.

Unknown 288 · Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 69

To TheNabi

Let Ali Sina comes and tell us where he get the verse then. He will then be able to tell you whether it is included with tafsir or not. However, as far as I have seen the way he quotes, he always get the ones with tafsir.

Are you thinking of heaven as the outer space? So heaven is not the same as paradise? Everyone including elementary grade children know that space is a physical entity (wait, should I said graduate physicists?). Alright then, I'll ask again, is paradise a physical place? Confused

Don't be too imaginative, a rumor couldn't do just that. We are not talking about something without witnesses which people can easily twisted the truth behind, but something with a definitely high probability of large number of witnesses... Confused

I still think you are the one, not Ali Sina, who should get a clue Nabi. Know that even if you have some good points, you're far being too sarcastic to pull your ideas off. Look before you leap. Note this, Ali Sina raised a good argument which means he has a good understanding, and your slandering him and me will not help you earn any points.

To bushbadee

1. Most christians are aware of that. If you browsed through their contemporary literatures or asked a pastor directly, they stated it quite clearly.

2. Although it's true that Caiaphas was appointed by Roman officials, he was married to the daughter of Annas, the former high priest who led the sanhedrim. They both were considered as high priests by the Jew community at that time for under Mosaic law Annas held his high-priesthood for life.

3. Sanhedrim (from greek synedrion which means council) in Jerusalem consisted 71 people. Other districts' sanhedrims consisted 3 or 23 people depending on the population due to Rome's strict rules. What I know from history is that approximately half a century BC Roman general Gabinius divided Palestine into 5 districts where each was represented by a council. That arrangement was only for a short duration and even during that time the council seemed to be Jewish.

I don't think there's any doubt that the Romans tried Jesus. Whether he was executed too was the debate that many people never seem to find an answer. Well, apparently you are not the first to believe Jesus did not die from crucifixion.

Barabbas in Aramaic means son of father or son of god. Christ comes from greek christos, equivalent to messiah, a transliteration of mashiach, which means the anointed one. I don't see any clear indication that Jesus and Barabbas were the same person. Many people called themselves son of god. Didn't you yourself mentioned that?

Was it night at that time? I wonder. The day before the pesach (passover) is fast for first-born, on the first day no work is allowed, at the first night there's a family meal. Occasionally, pesach begins after shabbath has been concluded, and in this case fast is on thursday and friday is the preparation day. If I were to believe the bible, then the crucifixion happened on the day before pesach.

As for NT as a history book, I agree, no one should refer to it seriously. However, I'm interested in seeing how you come to conclusion that the council consisted of 50 people, how Barnabbas and Jesus were the same person, and how execution didn't take place. Could you give the references?

TheNabi · Joined: 18 Nov 2002 Posts: 113 Location: New York

Peace Bag_of_Thoughts Very Happy

You said:

Unknown 288 · Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 69

Feh, you sounded like total crap. First you accused Ali for 'bogus' translation, then you suddenly changed your tone and admitted that the muslims' translation is the bogus one, and attacked him for taking their translation? Didn't you attack him earlier for 'translating' on his own? Then can you tell what is the word raised refer to? The spirit or both the spirit and the body? If only the spirit, where is the body? If both, is paradise a physical place too? If you'd make the least effort to use your brain, you'd know nothing has changed at all. Who contradicts himself now, eh, Nabi? Mad

What's wrong with you? I asked you whether your understanding of heaven is not the same as paradise. You said no. Okay, then I accepted that you mean sky and outer space is heaven and paradise is the topic of the discussion. What? This 'heaven' is not a physical concept? I asked about paradise, not 'heaven'. And 'heaven' is obviously a physical object, not even close to just a concept. Who're you to fool a physics undergrad? Mad

For once I agree, twits will always twist the truth. A very good example, Nabi. Good one. HAH! Laughing

Watch your mouth, Nabi. I'm no-where as mild as a dog. I'm a lion. You try to skin the wrong cat, you'll get mauled instead. I bring enough arguments for any mature rational thinker to delve in deep enough. You are blind if you can't see, no matter how much nonsense you can spout. Evil or Very Mad

I begin to seriously doubted whether you are intelligent enough for a good discussion. Any human being with an IQ higher than 70 knows that I made sarcastic remarks, not some pleas. Oh well, I guess it's only fair that I treated you like a certain category... Twisted Evil

TheNabi · Joined: 18 Nov 2002 Posts: 113 Location: New York

Peace Bag_of_Thoughts Very Happy

You said:

mughal200 · Joined: 16 Feb 2002 Posts: 485

Dear friends,

here are links to both shia and sunni most authentic quranic tafaseer. As far as tafaseer are concerned almost all sunni, shia tafaseer are similar, pick anyone you choose, for I have read many.

http://www.al-islam.org/quran/

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12730

Brother thenabi,

Nice to have you here. I do not discredit your interpretation of the quran either but the point is that brother ali is refuting the beliefs of those muslims who hold them. Your response seems to be misplaced if I may say so.

Now if my sources of information are correct then most of the muslim people in the world are either sunnies or shias. The rest only exist in name. I mean your kind of interpretation of the quran is not accepted by many and that is the truth whether you like it or not. If you do not believe me try sunni shia muslim forums and see the response for yourself.

Anyway regards and
_________________
All the best, from Mughal at
http://www.muslimsandislamic2.faithweb.com
http://www.religionandsecularism3.gq.nu

Unknown 288 · Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 69

Some answer from an IQ of 140. Can't stop laughing...

What's the matter? Is that the best you can come out with? Laughing

You can spout your racist, segegration and prejudice crap elsewhere, it won't work here. When something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is... a ... DUCK! The likes of you certainly proves my judgement correct, and you deserve to be treated like a moron. Laughing

Are you avoiding my questions? I am asking about paradise and what the word raised refer to. What have I heard from you? Status of Jesus? What's that ambiguous reply? Some IQ you got there eh, avoiding questions? Laughing

To mughal200

Thanks, mughal. At least that answers some of the most pressing issues here. However, you need not try to convince Nabi about his wrong grounds, he will only slander you.

TheNabi · Joined: 18 Nov 2002 Posts: 113 Location: New York

Peace Bag_of_Thoughts Very Happy

How have I avoided your question? My answer was and stands that 'raised' is referring to God raising Jesus' status, not raising Jesus to himself in person, body, or in spirit. It would be in contradiction to the rest of the Scripture. If you cannot accept this answer than hey, that's all on you. Wink

This is my particular view on things and I'm not one to be believing in the miraculous.

Unknown 288 · Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 69

Still can't stop laughing...

Hey, what happened to your post? Where're your typical petty insults I've always seen before? Come on, don't tell me you're actually trying to be polite? Shocked

Don't be shy, give me your best shot. Laughing

Pretty good idea you got there. So the word 'raise' refer to Jesus' status, eh? So, if you could come up with that conclusion, I bet you got some good basis. What are those? Qu'ran verses? References? Why don't you post them here, so I could see it for myself? It's not just your sole interpretation, right? Better not come up with that excuse, since you got the guts slamming someone else for that. Wha, don't tell me it is? Laughing

Well, I've been retorting since my last 2 posts. A little slow to notice, aren't we? Laughing

Well, it IS your fault for trying my patience. Shocked

You'd do well to mind your manner next time before you slander someone. Mad

everybee · Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 858

TheNabi seems to be trying to emulate the brainwashing and disinformation techniques of his teachers.

TheNabi · Joined: 18 Nov 2002 Posts: 113 Location: New York

Peace Bag_of_Thoughts Smile

You stated:

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