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Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> Quran (errancies, miracles and science)

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muslim4ever

Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 109
Location: EGYPT

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:32 am Post subject:

arabchristian

Quote:

Dear Mr.Tit-For-Tat (muslim4ever

),

You need to calm down...

Dear i know the truth is painful.....iam sorry.

Quote:

Mr.Tit-For-Tat wrote:

my Beloved Christians " look at your Holy bible befor you Attack My holy Quraan"

This is the most rediculous illogical thing I have ever heard.

this is not my problem.

Quote:

There is something you need to understand: If BOTH Islam and Christianity teach violence, then BOTH of them are nothing but violent cults.

Quote:

It's not a war between Christianity and Islam. It's a war between Islam and common sense.

islam will be the winner , None of your works or any body else’s works will have any effect upon the Faith of Islam, which has endured for over fourteen centuries and still endures the hostile and unjust attacks upon it.

Quote:

1- Do you intend to prove that both books teach violence, thus both of them are rubbish?

2- Does the supposedly "intolerant teachings" of the Bible justify the intolerance of the Quran?

3- Do you believe that a god who preach violence is a good God?

I require a simple three line answer, each line with only two or three letters..

Example:

1- Yes
2- No
3- No

Can you give me something like that?
Are those questions so difficult that you even can't say Yes or No?

i answered these Silly Questions befor with my method not as you like.

Quote:

, I'll simply consider you a lunatic with worthless copy-pasts

oh my God, no please no AC........ Dont consider me that . i will die. :P

YOURS
muslim4ever

DoctorNO

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 446

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:14 pm Post subject:

muslim4ever wrote:

Doctor NO

Quote:

Those were misinterpreted verses taken out of context, silly. Much of the list are mere historical tellings, nothing to do with the christian doctrine for women. I am not a christian but I find nothing more beautiful than this Christianic doctrine...

this is the problem of christians usually, Attack the others and when you Expose the cheap lies of their religion they say" misinterpreted verses "

But they are! Look at how an agnostic like DoctorNO could overthrow your silly notions about the book of Judges above. Much of the bible are historical accounts. If you wanna fish out their doctrines then concentrate on the New Testament.

muslim4ever wrote:

and when the muslims say the same thing about Quraan they will be unlogically .

Not necessarily. I tell you the truth that an agnostic like me could tell that there are a lot of ignorant accusations about the quran too.

muslim4ever wrote:

And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself.--Dt.20:13-14

That was their God's specific judgement for a specific group of people. Not a religious ruling to be followed for all time.

muslim4ever wrote:

Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.--1 Sam.18:27

Heroic battle deeds. You have a problem with that?

muslim4ever wrote:

And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her .... Thou shalt go in unto her.--Dt.21:11-13

Natural attraction. Whats your problem?

muslim4ever wrote:

But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none.--1 Cor.7:29

They were using what short time they have to dedicate their lives to the ministry. Your problem?

muslim4ever wrote:

Dear DoctorNO please Ask yourself " oh myself shame on you , Dont attack the muslims and their holy Qraan , because they will Attack my religion and my holy Bible easily and you will in bad postion"

So far you only manage to shame yourself with your ignorance and lack of common sense. Perhaps you should become a Christian or a Buddhist. If there is a God he is more active in their communities. Muslims around the globe having been invoking Allah in futility. Nothing is happening to them but instead are getting worse, unlike the Kafirs who reap blessings after blessings.

muslim4ever wrote:

Islam & Muslims had been the losers for 1400 years. And they are in worse condition now than the 1400 years combines. What makes you think its gonna be different in the future? Muslims are crying for an Allah that does not exist. You have all been duped by Mohammed.

LOOK AROUND YOU MAN! NOBODYS HEARING THE MUSLIM PRAYERS! NOOOOOOOOBODY! That is the plain and honest truth. Crying or Very sad

Unknown 8

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 168

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:48 pm Post subject:

Daylight,

Your rebuttals can be summerized into the following:

1- The verses that say "right-hand possession" refers to the Muslim women who returned from the unbelievers seeking shelter
2- The parable of Allah is not insulting slaves, but the opposite
3- The Law of Retaliation is for punishment, and not a blood retaliation.

====

Your first claim is an absurdity, for very simple reasons.

You are also contradicting yourself. Here is an excerpt from your "most important quote":

Quote:

The words "whom your right hand possessed" occurring in the Quran are in the past tense and refer to those who had already been enslaved

So you are saying that the "right-hand possessed" are slaves.

Then here:

Quote:

Pickthal has wrongly understood the phrase “Wama Malakat Yameenuka” . It doesn’t represent the prisoners of war who are made slaves because in 47/4 Quran has not made it permissible to make the prisoners slaves. Now you can ask me how I have said that the true meaning is “those who have returned to you from the unbelievers”.

The "right-hand possessed" are now "those who have returned to you from the unbelievers."

What the hell is that? You definitely need to choose one of those!!

However, concerning the past tense, I have already refuted that.

I'll refute here your new meaning for the "right-hand possessed."

Verse 60:10 says that the believing women, whose husbands became unbelievers, can be divorced from their husbands, and Muslims can marry them. So those women will basicaly become one of the Muslims' (four) wives.

No problems so far.

Now, please explain what do you understand from this verse:

"Successful indeed are the believers ...... who guard their privates, except with their wives and what their right hand possess, and then they are not blamed..." (23:1-6 Darwish Trans.)

Except with their wives AND WHAT THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS?

Aren't they supposed to be the same? aren't they ALSO from their wives?

Quote:

The word AW here is explanatory. AW = Or + That is + Namely + Call it + In other words. AW appears in this format instead of 'or' in many places in the Qur’an such as 23:6, 24:3, 25:62.

Wrong. AW (Or) has only one meaning which is "or." The three verses that should be supporting your claim are actually against it. Those verses used AW to mean "or" or "except." I think you didn't even read them. See for yourself:

Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame, (Quran 23:6)

We'll not going to use this verse, since it has "right-hand possessed" which we are suspecting.

"The adulterer shall not marry save an adulteress OR an idolatress, and the adulteress none shall marry save an adulterer or an idolater. All that is forbidden unto believers." (Quran 24:3 Pickthall Trans.)

What is the problem with "OR" here? Do you think another meaning for it can fit better?

"And He it is Who hath appointed night and day in succession, for him who desireth to remember, OR desireth thankfulness" (Quran 25:63 Pickthall Trans.)

What about here??? Rolling Eyes

I found more than 500 references for "AW" in the Quran. I went fast through most of them, and so far I didn't find another meaning for it than OR.

I definitely demand an explanation, becuase I don't think you are that stupid and have missed that!!

So the right hand possessed women are NOT considered as wives here. Then whom are they?

In verse 66:10

"Believers, when believing women come to you as emigrants, test them. Allah best knows their belief. If you find them to be believers do not return them to the unbelievers; they are not permitted to the unbelievers, nor are the unbelievers permitted to them. But give back to the unbelievers what they have spent, and there is no fault in you to marry such women, provided you give them their dowries. Do not hold on to the ties with unbelieving women, ask what you have spent and let them ask what they have spent. Such is the Judgement of Allah; He judges between you; and Allah is the Knower, and the Wise." (Quran 66:10 Darwish Trans.)

Here are the characteristics of those women who come to Muslms from the unbelievers, observed from this verse:

1- They are either your wives, or they are divorced from their husbands and became part of the Islamic community
2- They are tested and verified to be believers

If you asssumed that those women who returned back to the Muslims are the "right hand possessed," then according to 60:10 they have to be believers and seeking for shelter. And since they are believers, they are respected.

However, let's see what we can understand about the "right hand possessed" in verse 24:33

"Let those who do not find the means to marry be abstinent until Allah enriches them of His bounty. Those your right hand owns who seek their freedom, make a contract with them accordingly if you know some good in them, and give them from the wealth of Allah that He has given you. Do not force your slavegirls into prostitution in order to seek worldly gain for they wish to preserve their chastity. Whosoever compels them, surely Allah, after their being compelled, is the Forgiver (to the girls), the Most Merciful." (Quran 24:33 Darwish Trans.)

Here are the observed characteristics of the "right hand possessed":

1- They seek freedom, by a contract, thus we can say they are enslaved
2- The statment "if you know some good in them" means that they may not even have "some goodness."
3- They are described, this time as "fatayatikum" which literally means "your girls" (slavesgirls)
4- You should not FORCE them into prostitution, which means that the normal is that you shouldn't force them, but they should accept to be prostitutes. If they don't, then don't force them.

According to 4:24

"And (forbidden to you) are married women, except those whom your right hand owns. Such Allah has written for you. Lawful to you beyond all that, is that you can seek using your wealth in marriage and not fornication. So whatever you have enjoyed from them give them their obligated wage. And there is no fault in you in what ever you mutually agree after the obligation. Allah is the Knower, the Wise." (Quran 4:24 Darwish Trans.)

Here, we can conclude that they may be married but not to you.

According to 23:6

"Successful indeed are the believers ...... who guard their privates, except with their wives and what their right hand possess, and then they are not blamed..." (23:1-6 Darwish Trans.)

They are not your wives.

Characteristics of the "right hand possessed":

1- Seek freedom by a contract, thus we can say they are enslaved
2- The statment "if you know some good in them" means that they may not even have "some goodness."
3- They are described, this time as "fatayatikum" which literally means "your girls" (slavesgirls)
4- You should not be FORCED into prostitution, they should be ones on their own
5- They are not your wives
6- They can be married, to other men

And according to 24:31

And say to the believing women, that they lower their gaze cast down their eyes and guard their chastity, and do not reveal their adornment except that which is outward (face and hands); and let them draw their veils over their neck, and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husbands' fathers, or their sons, or their husbands' sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or what their right hands own, or such male attendants having no sexual desire, or children who have not yet attained knowledge of women's private parts; nor let them stamp their feet, so that their hidden ornament is known. And, O believers turn to Allah all together, in order that you prosper. (Quran 24:31 Darwish Trans.)

We can observe here that the believing women can reveal their adornment to various people, INCLUDING what they have right-hand possessed.

Se women, too, can have right-hand possessions.

Updated characteristics of the right-hand possessed:

1- May Seek freedom by a contract, thus we can say they are enslaved
2- The statment "if you know some good in them" means that they may not even have "some goodness."
3- They are described, this time as "fatayatikum" which literally means "your girls" (slavesgirls)
4- You should not be FORCED into prostitution, they should be ones on their own
5- They are not your wives
6- They can be married, to other men
7- They can be owned by both men and women

A shorter generic form defining the women who are "right-hand possessions":

1- Dominated (or enslaved)
2- Not necessarily believers
3- Slavegirls
4- Normally Prostitutes
5- Not your wives
6- Maybe married to other men
7- Can be owned by men or women

Let's compare this to the description of the women who seek shelter (Q 60:10):

1- They are either your wives, or they are divorced from their husbands and became part of the Islamic community
2- They must be believers
3- They are free women and respected

Do you see any similarities? Will Allah allow the believing women to become prostitutes?

I can clearly see that both are very different. I actually don't know how did you arrive to this strange conclusion that they are the same.

I may ask you then, who are the right-hand possessed? If you were to think a little bit, you'll find that all those characteristics perfectly match one entity: Slaves.

Verse 60:10 is just a verse that has nothing to do with right hand possession.

---

You also had a problem with verse 33:50. Here are many translations of it:

"O Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have given dowries and those whom your right hand possesses, of whatever spoils of war that Allah has given you; and the daughters of your paternal uncles and paternal aunts, and of your paternal and maternal aunts who migrated with you; and any believing woman who gives herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet wishes to take her in marriage. This is only for you and not any other believer. We know the duties We have imposed on them concerning their wives and those whom their right hand possesses, so that there should be no fault in you. Allah is the Forgiving and Merciful. (Quran 33:50 Darwish Trans.)

O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigratedwith thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which Weenjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. (Quran 33:50 Pickthall Trans.)

O Prophet (Muhammad (SAW))! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (captives or slaves) whom your right hand possesses - whom Allah has given to you, and the daughters of your 'Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your 'Ammah (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khal (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khalah (maternal aunts) whomigrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her; a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers. Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those (captives or slaves) whom their right hands possess, - in order that there should be no difficulty on you. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 33:50 Muhamad Hilali Trans.)

O Prophet! verily We have allowed unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast given their hires, and also those whomsoever thy right hand ownEth of those whomsoever Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thy paternal uncle, and the daughters of thy paternal aunts, and the daughters of thy maternal uncle, and the daughters of thy maternal aunts, who migrated with thee, and any believing woman, when she offereth herself unto the Prophet if the Prophet desire to wed her --purely for thee, above the rest of the believers. Surely We know that which We have ordained unto them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands won: in order that there may be no blame upon thee: And Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. (Quran 33:50 A.M. Daryab Trans.)

O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing womanwho dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We knowwhat We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captiveswhom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 33:50 Yusuf Ali Trans.)

You claimed that all those translators WRONGLY inserted "spoils of war."

No problem.

Here is the transilteration

"Ya ayyuha aInnabiyyu inna ahlalna laka azw aka allatee atayta ojoorahunna wama malakat yameenuka mimma afaa Allahu AAalayka wabanati AAammika wabanati AAammatika wabanati khalika wabanati khalatika allatee h arna maAAaka waimraatan mu/minatan in wahabat nafsaha liInnabiyyi in arada aInnabiyyu an yastankihaha khalisatan laka min dooni almu/mineena qad AAalimna ma faradna AAalayhim fee azw ihim wama malakat aymanuhum likayla yakoona AAalayka harajun wakana Allahu ghafooran raheeman" (Quran 33:50)

"mimma afaa Allahu" literally means "of what Allah has affa on you. "affa" is translated by most translators as what was taken from the war, the "spoils."

The context of this verse doens't make the meaning of the verb "affa" clear, so I searched for all the verses that have this verb, and I found only two.

The two occurencies are in 59:6 and 59:7.

I'll copy all the verses from verses 1-7 so that their context becomes clear. I'll use Darwish translation, which is very clear and accurate.

Please read it very carefully.

"(1) All that is in heavens and earth exalt Allah. He is the Almighty, the Wise. (2) It was He who expelled the unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes into the first exile. You did not think that they would go out, and they thought their fortresses would protect them from Allah. But Allah came upon them from where they did not expect,casting terror into their hearts that their homes were destroyed by their own hands as well as by the hands of the believers. Therefore, take heed you that have eyes. (3) Had it been that Allah had not decreed that they should be dispersed, He would have surely punished them in this world. And in the Everlasting Life the punishment of the Fire awaits them, (4) because they broke their promise with Allah and His Messenger; and whosoever breaks their promise with Allah Allah is Stern in retribution. (5) Whatever palmtree you cut down or left standing upon its roots, it is by the permission of Allah, so that He might humiliate the impious. (6) And whatever (spoils of war) Allah has given to His Messenger from them, you hastened on neither horse nor camel against them, but Allah gives His Messengers authority over whom He will. Allah is Powerful over all things. (7) The (spoils of war) taken from the villagers and given by Allah to His Messenger belong to Allah, His Messenger and the near kinsmen, the orphans, the needy and the destitute traveler, so that it is not something taken in turns by the rich among you. Whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it; and whatever he forbids you, abstain. And fear Allah; surely, Allah is Stern in retribution" (Quran 59:1-7 Darwish Trans.)

The phrases (spoils of war) is written literally as "ma afaa Allahu" (what Allah has affaa), which is the same as in verse 33:50.

Look at those parts:

...(Wama afaa Allah) has given to His Messenger from them...

"...The (Wama afaa Allah) taken from the villagers and given by Allah to His Messenger belong to Allah, His Messenger and the near kinsmen, the ..."

Here it is VERY CLEAR that "Wama afaa Allah" on Muhammad were the belongings of the "unbelievers among the People of the Book." Those belonings were not stolen, but they were taken by a war in which "Allah came upon them from where they did not expect,casting terror into their hearts that their homes were destroyed by their own hands as well as by the hands of the believers."

So "Wama afaa Allah" is proven to be correctly translated to "the given spoils of war by Allah."

If we came back to verse 33:50

"O Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have given dowries and those whom your right hand possesses, of whatever spoils of war that Allah has given you; and the daughters of your paternal uncles and paternal aunts, and of your paternal and maternal aunts who migrated with you; and any believing woman who gives herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet wishes to take her in marriage. This is only for you and not any other believer. We know the duties We have imposed on them concerning their wives and those whom their right hand possesses, so that there should be no fault in you. Allah is the Forgiving and Merciful." (Quran 33:50 Darwish Trans.)

We find that the women who are "right-hand possessions" are AMONG what Allah has "afaa," or by other words among the spoils of war that Allah has sent. So according to this verse, the "war prisoners" ARE "right-hand possessions."

And as I mentioned above, the "right-hand possessed" have many slave-qualities, which proves that prisoners of war were enslaved.

If verse 47:4 says the opposite, then that's simply a contradiction, or an "abrogation." Or maybe it was for the men only, not for the women who were preferred by the Islamic army.

=====

Now reagrding the parable of Allah. This matter is subjective. I understand your explanation of verse 16:75, but I see that you commented on verse 75 only, while actually my explanation of 75 was stemmed from 76.

I'll copy them again.

"Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not.' (Quran 16:75 Yusu Ali Trans.)

The question here is are they equal? In my humble opinion, and all the other translators as well, was No, Allah thinks they are not. Ofcourse it looks rediculous, but remember that this verse is not very clear.

HOWEVER, look at the next verse:

"Allah sets forth (another) Parable of two men: one of them dumb, with no power of any sort; a wearisome burden is he to his master; whichever way be directs him, he brings no good: is such a man equal with one who commands Justice, and is on a Straight Way?" (Quran 16:76 Yusu Ali Trans.)

This is another parable by Allah which EXEMPLIFIES the previous verse, becuase as you see the same conditions exist (a powerful master and a powerless slave). This verse is much clearer. Here the master is described as a commanded of justice and on the straight path, yet the slave is considered as dumb and returns no good. Then Allah asks: Is the master who orders justice and follows the Straight Path be equated with the dumb who brings no good?

The answer, from the context, is very obviosly NO. If you can't see that, then you have to read them carefully.

This verse is cleary saying that both of them are not equal. Translators like Muhammad Taqiuddin Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin, tried to cover this up. They added (from their own minds) that the master is a believer and the slave is a non-believer, to justify Allah's preference to the master.

Here is their translation for both verses:

"Allah puts forward the example (of two men a believer and a disbeliever); a slave (disbeliever) under the possession of another, he has no power of any sort, and (the other), a man (believer) on whom We have bestowed a good provision from Us, and He spends thereof secretly and openly. Can they be equal? (By no means, not). All the praises and thanks be to Allah. Nay! (But) most of them know not." (Quran 16:75 Muhammad Hilali)

"And Allah puts forward (another) example of two men, one of them dumb, who has no power over anything (disbeliever), and he is a burden to his master, whichever way he directs him, he brings no good. Is such a man equal to one (believer in the Islamic Monotheism) who commandsjustice, and is himself on a Straight Path?" (Quran 16:76 Muhammad Hilali)

As you see they have classified the master as a "believer" and the slave as a "disbeliever." That justification was their own invention to hide the evident unfairness of Allah to the slaves. The verse, unfortunately, portrays the slave-master as a righteous, a commander of justice and on the straight path.

Is that fair? Will this verse eliminate slavery as you are claiming?!

But remember that I was not saying that Allah here is sanctioning slavery, I said if Allah wanted to abolish slavery, he wouldn't have given such parable.

=====

Let's now go to the "Law of Equality." Actually, I should have called it "The Law of Retaliation." The former was not the most accurate.

I actually provided an unclear translation. This is a clearer one by Pickthall:

"O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage and payment unto him in kindness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. He who transgresseth after this will have a painful doom." (Quran 2:178 Pickthall Trans.)

Daylight236 wrote:

If a free person has committed murder, that free person will face the Law. If a slave has committed murder, that slave will face the Law. And if a woman has committed murder, that woman will face the Law.

Your "explanation" made me laugh. It is just another failing attempt to hide the injustices of the Quran.

Daylight236 wrote:

If a slave has committed murder, that slave will face the Law.

This is halarious. OFCROUSE if a slave committed a crime, the slave will be punished. Is there ANY other choice? Will you punish his master instead?!!

This explanation is meaningless.

It seems you have absolutely no knowledge about the history of law in Arabia. The Arabian Peninsula was ruled by one law: The eye for an eye and the tooth for the tooth. This is the ' ' Law of Retaliation ' '. In every aspect of the Arabian/Islamic history, this law of retaliation had a role.

This verse is Allah's version of the "tooth for a tooth." But Allah here, instead, suggested that the master for the master, the slave for the slave and the women for the women.

Your justification is not logical. You have confused "retaliation" with "punishment." In there is a big difference. A punishment can be done by the injured, OR by other authority. But the retaliation is done by the injured only. In response to his injury, he will inflict the same injury to the aggressor. Retaliation is "action and its reaction." A tooth for the tooth, a (stolen) caravan for a caravan, a (murdered) "slave for a slave" and a "master for a master," according to the Islamic version.

I'm shocked that you care calling me "a learning person" while your "clarifications" don't make sense for a 10 year old boy.

Ofcrouse you'll get mad when you face those truths about the Islamic god, Allah. But you'll get over it.

Last edited by Unknown 8 on Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:07 am; edited 2 times in total

muslim4ever

Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 109
Location: EGYPT

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 12:16 am Post subject:

Doctor NO

Quote:

cheap lie ,the new testament is full with this bad doctrines... look at

Jesus shows disrespect for his mother and family by asking, "Who is my mother, or my brethren?" when he is told that his family wants to speak with him

Mk.3:32-33
"And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother?"

In the last days God will make things especially rough on pregnant women
13:17 In the last days God will make things especially rough on pregnant women

God punishes Eve, and all women after her, with the pains of childbirth and subjection to men. 3:16

Quote:

Simple Question if islam is as you said why you attack it? what is your aim?

'They want to extinquish God's Light with their mouths,
but God will not allow except that His Light should be perfected
- even though the disbelievers may detest it."
(Qu'ran, Chapter 9 - Repentance, Verse 32)

“Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people...” ](Hillary Rodham Clinton, Los Angeles Times)

"Moslems are the world’s fastest-growing group...” (The Population Reference Bureau, USA Today).

yours
muslim4ever

adnan

Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:51 am Post subject:

muslim4ever,
if you want to discuss Christianity, go to the Christian Forum please !
Christianity Forum:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=8

Here in THIS forum, we discuss only the Quran! thanks.

Quote:

Simple Question if islam is as you said why you attack it? what is your aim?

Why I attack Islam? Why Islam attack me when it says that I will BURN IN HELLFIRE ?
Whats the aim of QURAN ? Whats the AIM of ALLAH and MOHAMMED?

Adnan
(former muslim)

Mullah Mo

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 470

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:07 pm Post subject:

muslim4ever wrote:

Islam will be the winner ,

Would a real winner blow up buildings, drive planes into buildings, blowup buses, etc…?? Would a real winner call for the killing of its apostates?? Would a real winner ban the preaching of other religion in its birth land??

These are not the qualities of a “winning team.” You know, in our Eastern Philosophies and Religions, these are the signs of an insecure religion. It’s a sign of a dying and scared little ideology.

Quote:

None of your works or any body else’s works will have any effect upon the Faith of Islam, which has endured for over fourteen centuries and still endures the hostile and unjust attacks upon it.

Then why the HELL are you in here. Surely you think we are important enough for you to take some time to argue your point here. I called your bluff.

1400 years was what the humanity endured the hostile and unjust attack by Islam. You got it backwards. And for all that Islam has done, the world is just beginning to criticize IT. Now, you want to cry and say “why all this criticism??” Maybe if Islam had grown up a little bit and stop acting like a spoiled brats, you wouldn’t be in this position.

Muslims get pissed off -just because things don’t go your way- they blow up buildings, buses, planes, and shoot at aid workers. I got news for you Muslims “life suck” and most of the time you don’t get what you want. So, GROW THE HELL UP.

abdullahnoor

Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:26 am Post subject:

muslim4ever I have brought to the attention of many Muslim-haters here, but they are blind. I have shown them the real source of sex slavery, but they do not wish to see it. They are only interested in sliming Islam. So they ignore the real source. Here is the link to show you that I have discussed the issue. Note that even after revealing them the real source of sex slavery, they did not condemn the real source, but continue to slander and slime Islam! Such is the hypocrisy of Muslim-haters! http://forum.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?t=3855&sid=18215172e743f94e2341c66c9b9bb32e _________________ If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance. If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!”

muslim4ever

Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 109
Location: EGYPT

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 2:55 am Post subject:

Mullah Mo

Quote:

Would a real winner blow up buildings, drive planes into buildings, blowup buses, etc…??

dear We denounce the killing of innocent civilians in the United States, just as we have patiently for many years denounced the killing of innocent civilians in Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, India,Iraq and other countries.

look at
A Wave of Conversion to Islam in the U.S. Following September 11 !!!
at
http://sultan.org/articles/convert.html

"US Attacks a Terrible Crime in Islam" -
at http://thetruereligion.org/lahidan.htm

Quote:

Would a real winner call for the killing of its apostates??

silly issue,

Quote:

Belief is based upon one’s conviction, and sincere belief is therefore based on indisputable conviction and is not the result of blind imitation or compulsion. Every individual is free to choose or adopt the faith in which he believes and to exercise his free thought even if he is an atheist. No one has the right to interfere with his beliefs provided that he keeps his beliefs to himself and does not spread them among the people in order to confuse them regarding their moral values. If he deliberately does so, and spreads his false beliefs which reject the beliefs of the people, he will have opposed the regime of the state in which he lives and will have stirred sedition in the hearts of the people. Any person who acts in such a manner will be accused of treason and condemned to death. The execution of a person who renounces his faith in Islam is not just due to the renouncing of his religion in which he had believed of his own free will,but also the punishment for inciting sedition against the established religious authority of the Islamic state.
If he should renounce his religion without spreading his views among the people and without shaking the peoples belief, he is immune against all harm. Some Muslim scholars are of the opinion that the person who renounces his faith does not meet his punishment in this world but would be punished in the Hereafter on the Day of Judgement . They also declared that the execution of those who renounced Islam according to the sayings of the prophet, was not for renouncing Islam, but for being enemies of Islam who had fought the Muslims on the battle ground

Quote:

Islam-hater no more.

adnan

Quote:

if you want to discuss Christianity, go to the Christian Forum please !
Christianity Forum:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=8

thank you

Quote:

Why I attack Islam? Why Islam attack me when it says that I will BURN IN HELLFIRE ?
Whats the aim of QURAN ? Whats the AIM of ALLAH and MOHAMMED?

:"Let him who will, believe, and let him who will, reject (it).” (Quraan18/29).

Dear you dose not belive in the Hell fire , Muhammed , Qurran ,and Allah, os what is your problem ?
their aim not important to you .

yours
Muslim4ever

Last edited by muslim4ever on Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:02 am; edited 1 time in total

Mullah Mo

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 470

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:59 am Post subject:

muslim4ever wrote:

http://sultan.org/articles/convert.html

You can't use Islamic sites to prove Islamic claims. Just like you can't use the Quran to prove the Quranic claims. Capeesh?? Wink

Quote:

Islam-hater no more.

Muslim4ever

I'm just telling you "AS IT IS." This site was not made to be Politically Correct. Now, just because something is Politically Incorrect doesn't mean that IT is false. Again, GROW UP and join the freaking club.

adnan

Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 10:07 am Post subject:

muslim 4 ever

Quote:

Dear you dose not belive in the Hell fire , Muhammed , Qurran ,and Allah, os what is your problem ?
their aim not important to you .

Ok, then my God Pikachoo revealed to me that "Muslims will be skinned alive on the day of judgement, Mohammed's weeny will be chopped off and fed to pigs and all his wives will forced to dance naked 24/7 for the entertainment of Ex-muslims"

Is this a right thing for me to beleive in ? Would you not mind if I went on telling people that the Almighty Pikachoo was the best God and his religion was the last and the true one?
But you dont believe in Pikachoo, so why should you be bothered?

muslim4ever

Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 109
Location: EGYPT

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:25 am Post subject:

abdullahnoor

Quote:

I have brought to the attention of many Muslim-haters here, but they are blind. I have shown them the real source of sex slavery, but they do not wish to see it.

dear brother really they are blind.

Prostitution: Western Way Of Legalised Slavery

In Oct. 2000 Netherland officially legalized prostitution and Brothels. The Dutch SexIndustry is now $ billion equal to 5% of Dutch economy.

(Source New York Times 12 Aug. 2001)

In Dec. 2001 Germany legalized pimping and brothel keeping.

Annual Turnover $ 4.5 Billion .

(Source BBC. 20 Dec. 2001)

Number of women prostitutes in Germany: 4,00 000.

(Source. I OMI C March 1999)

Women were the biggest asset to export to United States

(Source : Agency France Press Nov. 1999)

The UN estimates that one million women and children are trafficked each year for the purpose of sexual exploitation.

(Source: Xinhua news Agency Sept. 21/99)

The trade in woman has less risk and high profits as compared to drugs and arms trafficking.

(Source: Associated Press 23 Feb. 2000)

Annual Turnover in sex Industry $57 billions.

(Source: Morais 14-June 1999)

Prostitution too is Slavery

“ In Cambodia alone there are 20,000 to 30,000 men involved in buying woman and girls for Prostitution”. (Kea 9 Sept 1999).

“According to several reports, woman and girls in brothels of Cambodia have sex with 7 –15, men per day.” (Indra Association January 2000)

Look at their Plight.

“Many of these young woman reported depression, hopelessness, inability to sleep, poor appetite”

Many were sad ,ashamed suffering loss of freedom ,loss of childhood etc -------

Many fear anxiety and the greatest fear is of being beaten by brothel owners, and above all, fear of AIDS.

(Free 1997, 27- 28)

Islam Forbids Prostitution and Encourages Freeing of Slaves

“Tell the Believing men to lower their gaze and guard their modesty”. (Surah Nur : 30)

“Do not go even close to adultery”. (Surah 17 : 32)

Islam encouraged freeing of slaves as expiation of sins.

But those who divorce their wives by zihar, then wish to go back, on the words they uttered, they should FREE SLAVE. (Surah Mujadilah : 3)

Islam Encouraged Marriage with Slaves

“Marry Women of your choice Two, Three or Four, and if you fear that you shall not be able to do justice with them, then marry only one or “that your right hand Posseses.” (Surah Nisa : 3)

Slavery and Freedom

Islam and Slavery

How Islam Tackled the Problem of Slavery
?

yours
muslim4ever

Spinoza

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:46 am Post subject:

Quote:

look at
A Wave of Conversion to Islam in the U.S. Following September 11 !!!
at
http://sultan.org/articles/convert.html

That story is a fake imho, just like the 'Jermaine Jackson' hoax it so proudly displays on the same page. Maybe you should be a tad bit more carefull with the rubbish you copy paste?

muslim4ever

Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 109
Location: EGYPT

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:50 am Post subject:

"Mullah Mo"

Quote:

You can't use Islamic sites to prove Islamic claims. Just like you can't use the Quran to prove the Quranic claims. Capeesh?? :wink:

and you cant use anti-islamic sites to prove anti-islamic claims, ok.........

here non-islamic links that prove the islamic claims.

Fast-growing Islam winning converts in Western world

Muslims in America: The Nation’s Fastest Growing Religion

Have nice day
yours
muslim4ever

Mullah Mo

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 470

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:38 am Post subject:

From the link you provided me......

Quote:

The second-largest religion in the world after Christianity, Islam is also the fastest-growing religion. In the United States, for example, nearly 80 percent of the more than 1,200 mosques have been built in the past 12 years.

What the does building mosques have to do with spirituality?? Are they judging the growth by the growth of mosques??

Quote:

Islam has drawn converts from all walks of life, most notably African-Americans. Former NAACP President Benjamin Chavis, who joined the Nation of Islam recently, personifies the trend.

Yes, it is the a trend among African-Americans. But guess what?? They're converting to the Nation of Islam. LOL

When non-Muslims visit this site they will never convert to Islam. I know that, you know that and the whole Muslim world knows that. That is why they and you are scared.

CroMagnon

Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 2112
Location: West Kafiristan

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:24 am Post subject:

_________________ Sheikh Ahmad al Kat'ani: "every hour 667 muslims are converting to christianity"

Crow

Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:46 pm Post subject:

muslim4ever wrote:

abdullahnoor

Quote:

I have brought to the attention of many Muslim-haters here, but they are blind. I have shown them the real source of sex slavery, but they do not wish to see it.

dear brother really they are blind.

Prostitution: Western Way Of Legalised Slavery

It is NOT slavery because no one is FORCING these women to do what they do! They do it out of CHOICE! I agree it is disgusting to sell your body. However, concubinage in islam FORCES women to have sex with their masters at the male's whim! You HYPOCRITE! Rolling Eyes

Where is the real oppression?
_________________

KAMIKAZE WATERMELON!

Fischerspooner is weird..but cool

abdullahnoor

Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:25 pm Post subject:

muslim4ever wrote

Quote:

dear brother really they are blind.

Prostitution: Western Way Of Legalised Slavery

To which blind as a bat and hypocrite Crow (are not all Muslim-haters blind and hypocrite?) replied

Quote:

Muslim4ever, my brother in Islam. They are not only blind, they are hypocrites too. Note that the answer given by Crow ironically highlights their own follies?

Crow, no one forcing these women? They have a choice? Really? Whatabout this? Let us see who are the real traffickers of the flesh trade.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/03/08/women.trafficking/

Quote:

The plight of women and children being sold into sex slavery around the world is being highlighted as part of International Women's Day.

An estimated two million women and children are sold into the sex trade every year, the U.S. research group Protection Project states.

Let us see if your backyard is clean, Muslim-haters

Quote:

Up to 120,000 women are smuggled into western Europe, mainly from central and eastern Europe, and forced into prostitution.

A report by the Protection Project, based at Johns Hopkins University, in Baltimore, Maryland, has documented the rising trends in the sex slave trade.

It says more than 15,000 women are trafficked into the United States every year, many of them young girls from Mexico.

The project also claims that Asian women are sold to brothels in North America for $16,000 each.

Almost 200,000 girls from Nepal, many of them under the age of 14, are working as sex slaves in India.

An estimated 10,000 women from the former Soviet Union have been forced into prostitution in Israel.

What? Sex slavery happening right behind your backyard at this very instant? Hellloooooo? Any Muslim-haters out there?

You allow sex slavery that is happening this very instant in your backyard, yet you condemn Islam for looking after slaves 1400 years ago????

Hypocrisy at work?????

Still not convinced Muslim-haters? What about this report, from the CIA?
http://lists.partners-intl.net/pipermail/women-east-west/2000-April/000048.html

And lookie here Muslim-haters, you call our beloved Prophet a paedophiliac? Hey, he had the honour to marry sweet and virtuous Aisha. But what are you doing to such innocent young girls today? Eat this!
http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/web/news_page.asp?nid=2151

Quote:

Between August 2001 and November 2001, Macedonian Police discovered 328 [trafficked] women in the raids in the night bars in the West and Northwest of the country. 12% of them are young girls aged 14 to 16. A Skopje shelter, run by IOM with the assistance from the police, accepted 6 girls under age of 18 during this year.

UNICEF's child protection officer Carry Nill says that the problem of child sex slavery in Macedonia worsened during the last two years.

Macedonia is known as a country on the route of trafficking women for prostitution [in Western Europe], and also as destination country for this kind of organized crime. Since the last year's security crisis in the country, Macedonia becomes a lair for children trafficking as well.

"Nobody knows how big this problem is. It's very hard to find information on children trafficking, but the problem is getting worse. There might be thousands of children who are victims of sex slavery, child pornography, donating organs, drug trafficking or begging in Europe," says Barbara Limanowska, the author of the newest UNICEF report on the trafficking of women and children in Southeast Europe.

According to her, at least 10 to 30% of all European sex workers are minors. It is also thought that up to 80% of the victims from Albania are girls under 18.

My brothers and sisters in Islam. I have been in this site for many months. This site is a haven for Muslim-haters to hate Muslims. I assure you that. They do not see their own follies, but blame all of their ills on Islam. The above has been discussed before – many, many times. But they are blind.

You see, this site is a hate site. It is designed to hate over a billion Muslims. It is designed to hate one-sixth of the world’s population. So they taint Islam, to hide their hypocrisy. Where there is real cause to condemn, as in the case of the teaching that propagates slavery as in this link, http://forum.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?t=3855&sid=18215172e743f94e2341c66c9b9bb32e , they not only did not condemn that teaching, they also continue to slime Islam!

Where there is reason to condemn female oppression TODAY, as in this link, http://forum.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?t=4791&start=0 , they not only did not condemn that practice, but continue to slime Islam!

So while they slime Islam, they ignore the real perpetrators, as shown in the links.

Read my last two links in detail. All the above has been discussed at length. Yet Muslim-haters return time and again, condemning Islam, when they themselves have faults bigger than others!

Hail, Muslim-haters’ hypocrisy!

Come now Kafirs. Drop your hate. It is eating you from the inside. Have you not noticed your hate has turning you into hypocrites? Come to Islam with me and my fellow Muslim brothers and sisters. Experience the peace, love and passion Islam teaches. Hate is bad. Love is good.
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.

If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” Smile

adnan

Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:31 pm Post subject:

abdullahnoor

Quote:

Hate is bad. Love is good.

why does Quran hate me by saying I will burn in Hellfire? Is that not hatred?

Quote:

12% of them are young girls aged 14 to 16.

1) Ofcourse 14 to 16 years old girls becoming prostitutes is a bad thing. But why dont we see any muslim saying that having sex with 9 year old little girls is also bad?
2) By admission of Muslims themselves (a muslim magazine), prostitution exists in all Muslim countries.
3) 9 years and 14 years, there's a gap of 5 years.

Quote:

And lookie here Muslim-haters, you call our beloved Prophet a paedophiliac? Hey, he had the honour to marry sweet and virtuous Aisha. But what are you doing to such innocent young girls today?

because he married a 9 year old little when he was 54. that makes a Pedophile.

Quote:

You allow sex slavery that is happening this very instant in your backyard, yet you condemn Islam for looking after slaves 1400 years ago????

Why didnt Islam ban slavery?

Adnan

abdullahnoor

Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:41 pm Post subject:

Attention!

Everybody look at this! Look at the very hypocrisy that is happening right before your very eyes!

adnan wrote:

abdullahnoor

Quote:

Hate is bad. Love is good.

why does Quran hate me by saying I will burn in Hellfire? Is that not hatred?

Quote:

12% of them are young girls aged 14 to 16.

Adnan, a fervent Muslim-hater has justified the non-condemnation of sex slavery in the West TODAY, because Muhammad (p) married a 9 year old girl 1400 years ago!!!!

So while Muslim-haters bastardise a perfectly legal marriage 1400 years ago, they refuse to condemn sexual slavery and paedophilia today! Are you not helping and perhaps even glorifying the sex trade (including minors), which is happening in your very own backyard today?

How much more hypocritical can Muslim-haters get?

Come now. All this hate is causing you blindness. Drop your hate. Experience love instead. Come to Islam with me.
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.

If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” Smile

Last edited by abdullahnoor on Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

adnan

Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:46 pm Post subject:

lol Abdullahnoor
I said:

Quote:

Ofcourse 14 to 16 years old girls becoming prostitutes is a bad thing.

Then how could I be justifying sex-slavery in the West? I told you that 14 years old girls becoming prostitutes in the west was a BAD THING. Further, I also said that it was wrong of the false prophet to marry little girls. No houris for you, Abdullah, Houris dont and wont exist.
But you have justifed that because sex slavery exists in the West, it was OK for Mohammed the false prophet to have sex with a little 9 year old girl when he was 54. Shocked

Imagine the hypocricy of Muslims! Dear Muslims, Islam is a lie! Leave Islam and leave the lies!
Come out of Islam, Come to Humanism.

Adnan

abdullahnoor

Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:50 pm Post subject:

Adnan, WHY ARE YOU NOT CONDEMNING SEX SLAVERY IN YOUR VERY OWN BACKYARD TODAY? _________________ If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance. If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!”

adnan

Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:56 pm Post subject:

Ok Abdullah, I have to make it obvious for you: I CONDEMN ANY SEX SLAVERY WHEREVER IT EXISTS. Happy now? Now can I get an answer to my question: WHY DOES QURAN HATE ME BY SAYING I'LL BURN IN HELLFIRE ? Also, your Quran allows marraige to girls who havent reached puberty, as you can see from the title of the thread. Why have you not responded to that question in an appropriate manner? Is that not a sign that Islam is a religion of hate and intolerance? Is that not a sign that Islam cannot withstand any questions? _________________ O Muslims, Leave Islam. When Allah asks you "Why did you leave Islam?", tell him "Because, You said in Quran 2:256,'there is no compulsion in religion'."

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