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bush badee
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa
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 Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I've already seen that picture.
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i HAVE the picture and have been trying to locate the source of it.
I need the source to post it somewhere.
Do you remember where you got it.
I thought I got it from Gamla but I am not sure.
There was a movie called Hitler's children.
But you are right, we came in pretty strong in Germany and there was not a lot of resistance after we bombed most of their cities to hell.
I have pictures I took in Nurnberg after the bombins and it really was pretty well wrecked.
What is interesting is how we were able to spare some historic places like the wall around NUrnberg.
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Antonia
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 481
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| bush badee wrote: | | Quote: | I've already seen that picture.
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i HAVE the picture and have been trying to locate the source of it.
I need the source to post it somewhere.
Do you remember where you got it.
I thought I got it from Gamla but I am not sure. |
I saw it on WND. I have no idea what the source was. Supposedly, it was found by Israeli soldiers in a PLO home they searched. |
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bread
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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The Saudi people are divided into a few categories:
1) The Royals, with their 85,000 princes
2) The Nobles, nomadic tribes who never inter-mixed with slaves, descendats of former slaves, or lower class/commoners
3) commoners
The first 2 groups are the rules (1) and the Jihadis/fundamentalists (2).
The third group is mostly kept in dire poverty. Yes Antonia, POVERTY. If you go 5 miles from the kings residence in Ryiadh, the capital, you`ll hit the SLUMS. They are sprinkled all over the country. Sure there are some very rich Saudi citizens, but the ones that are commoners, and not working for the police/army/secret service/royal palaces etc., do NOT share in the enormous wealth of this Desert Kingdom.
This group, comprising some 70% of the populace, is mostle illiterate, ill trained beyond some religios platitudes and always repressed by the Secrect Police.
These 70% of the Saudis are not the ones who are Jihadis. They havent got the money, they barely survive. Besides, the Nobles and Princes wouldnt want them to be armed and trained, or else they could get funny ideas about using these weapons and skills against their arrogant and oppressive masters.
No, these hand to mouth people, the majority of the Saudis, are not the fundamentalists, nor the Jihadis.
They say the Saudi per capita income go from 20,000 in 1990 to 6,000 in 2003, a whopping 70% drop in only 13 years. Unemployment is 25%, and guess what? Who is the hardest hit? The princes, the Nobles, or the Commoners?
Tough one, right?
So yes, there is unhappiness among the Commoners toward the King, the Regent, and the princes. But NOT because they are more fundamentalist or Jihadist than the Princes and the Nobles, but because they suffer from dropping income, huge unemployment 30% among university graduates), rising gasoline prices, and sub-par education system which condems them to life long under-employment or unemployment.
These are socio-economic complaints, NOT religios ones. The commoners are little interested in the Princes plans to spread Islam by force and terrorism across the world. There is nothing in it for them in this affair.
These people are the primary VICTIMS of Islam. The Islamic sword and terror networks are wielded by the Princes and the Nobles, not by these hand to mouth paupers.
Get real people. Some of these infortunates live with a few dates and a little camel milk most of their days. These are not the people who finance 29,000 Saudi Jihadis in Afghanistan, Iraq, Chechenya, West Bank/Gaza, Kosovo, Philippines etc.
This Sauid Royals claim is no more believable than to think the USA welfare recipients are the ones financing the USA Marine Core. Their resouces wouldnt be enough, no matter how hard they tried.
Only rich people can do that, and that is the Royals and the Nobles, not the paupers and unemployed of Saudi Arabia. Don`T believe these fairy tales. |
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bush badee
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I saw it on WND. I have no idea what the source was. Supposedly, it was found by Israeli soldiers in a PLO home they searched.
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wHAT IS WND?
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bush badee
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Question bread.
These paupers.
Are they the foreign workers or Saudi citizens?
If they are Saudi citizens do they get the schooling the sauds boast about.?
Does that money and privilege go to the nomadic tribes.?
Interesting paper.
Could you expand it more.
I find it quite interesting for one.
l
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Antonia
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 481
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| bush badee wrote: |
wHAT IS WND? |
WND is World Net Daily
worldnetdaily.com |
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bread
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| bush badee wrote: | Question bread.
These paupers.
Are they the foreign workers or Saudi citizens?
If they are Saudi citizens do they get the schooling the sauds boast about.?
Does that money and privilege go to the nomadic tribes.?
Interesting paper.
Could you expand it more.
I find it quite interesting for one.
l |
Those paupers ARE Saudi citizens. There are of course 6.5 million foreign worker in the Desert Kingdom. But most of them are not that poor. Some foreigners are higly paid professionals, some are lowly paid domestic workers for the rich Saudis. Some are construction workers etc.
Some of the foreign workers are also very poor. But for the issue at hand I am discounting them completely, because they are not citizens. So they will have no say whatsoever in the political arrangemets in Arabia. thats how it is, foreigners do not participate in the political process.
Sure, there are abuses of foreigners too, and if democracy comes to Arabia, the foreigners lot will improve also. But I was NOT refering to forigners above, only Citizens.
Yes, the money goes to the Nobles (many of whom are nomads and semi-nomads, though they might use ultra modern jeeps to herd their camels  ) and of course to the Princes.
The nutty and extremist religios leaders, the Jihadis and the Al-Qaida come from these Nobles who use this exagerated Islamic zeal, so as to maintain autonomy and high position in the kingdom. Just like the Nobles of France or England in the Early Middle Ages were resisting Central Government effort to centralise the country, the Saudi Nobles are at a similar stage now and use Islmaism as a way to maintain some autonomy from the Princes.
You know, the Sauds were originally one of these Noble tribes from the Eastern Deserts (Najd) and the original arrangement was that they would be just a ``primus inter pares``, not a real Dynasty with centralised power. Since they broke these tribal arrangements, the other Nobles are now using Islamism to maintain some autonomy. The Nobles man most cleric positions, ideologues, Jihadis, Islamic subversion strategists etc. But the Princes, are in it too. They just direct from the shadows, not leading from the front lines. Its not just cowardice, but also the fear of being caught and bringing the Whole dynasty under Western retaliation.
About the education system: it is multi tiered. Some receive GOOD education, some none, some so and so and some sub-par education consisting only of religios indoctrination.
However, since 30% of University Grads are unemployed, it seems even good education won`t help you unless you are a Noble or are somehow connected with the PRincess. Many Saudi Grads emigrate in search of jobs. The Royals strived very hard NOT to permit a native middle class or professional stratum to develop but rather import their professionals from the West, at high salaries and no tax (Western professionals pay no income taxes ). This policy was desigend so as not to have a politically active class internally.
As you know, there are no elections, political parties, labor or trade unions or professional associations lawful in Arabia. These are arrestable offences.
A middle class or professional class would just be too hard to control. Thus in a way, the fortunate ones who receive a GOOD University education are doubly shortchanged, because they will mostly be unemployed or under-employed after studies. This is why many young Saudis resent foreigners. Not necesariy racist, but economics driven. Its hard to be born in a country that pays kingly foreing professionals, but denies you that type of jobs, isnt it? 
Its more complicated than the TV simplistic programs.
Lately the PRinces have unleashed the secret police against the slum dwellers and killed a few, arrested a few and claim that these semi-starved people are the terrorists. Laughable. sure these unde-classes resent the Princes, but because they are synking into poverty. (sincerely, wouldnt the American youth ALSO feel betrayed if they lost 70% of their income in only 13 years?)
The PRinces make a good show by killing a few under-class undesirables and tell the West LOOK, we are killing Al-Qaida.
Ridiculos, Bin LAdin and the top Al-Qaida leadrs come from the top Saudi Families (Nobles), not from the slums. I dont know if you are aware, but the Bin LAden clan is the second richest in Arabia, after the Sauds, and they have a monopoly on all construction of buildings, and roads in the kingdom, plus a large part of the Gold market in Dubai, plus own most of the gum arabic which is used in Pepsi, Coca Cola and other soft drinks. (gum arabic is used as an ingredient in soft drinks)
These are serios money, not he pitance that flea infested slums could spare. |
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bush badee
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Thank you bread for the gift of enlightenment.
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Antonia
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 481
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| bread wrote: | The Saudi people are divided into a few categories:
1) The Royals, with their 85,000 princes. |
85,000 princes. Indecent! They have the breeding habits of a pack of dogs. I suppose 10 years from now, they will be expecting aid from the west to feed that passel of brats.
Civilized people produce only the number of children they can properly care for. The only way a man can be a good father to 20 or more children, and give them the time and care they need, is to do nothing else.
Parasites reproducing themselves.
Last edited by Antonia on Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chanakya
Joined: 27 Dec 2002
Posts: 2637
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Thus in a way, the fortunate ones who receive a GOOD University education are doubly shortchanged, because they will mostly be unemployed or under-employed after studies. This is why many young Saudis resent foreigners. Not necesariy racist, but economics driven. Its hard to be born in a country that pays kingly foreing professionals, but denies you that type of jobs, isnt it? |
Bread,
I read a book by jouralist who was a wife of American doctor. According to her Saudis think it is beneath them to work as machinist, mechanics, plumber, carpenter, repairman of all sorts.. They don't want to trained in blue collar jobs at all. The Saudi government at one time paid full salary for anybody taking this kind of training but most the seats remained vacant..the ones that came forward didn't complete the course. They found it too hard.
According to the book Saudis would rather be a receptionist at a hotel, bank teller, Ticket agent airline t counter..because they get dress up and look good rather than do any job in construction or trade. They have no skills to maintain the machinery they have imported, Jeep, airplanes, oil refinaries, airconditioning, phone system, telecommunications etc..they cannot do without foreign skill workers, all the building of oil refinaries and maintaince of infra structure is done by foreign workers.
Also, Saudis have very limited mangement skills. The whole system of Government was developed by westners based on western model. Saudi bosses just sit on the top and let western professional run the company or a government ministry. There is very little knowledge or participation, accept from time to time they throw their weight around, to show that they are the bosses.
They resent foreigners because foreingers make them feel inadequate, regardless of the money Saudis have.. and foreigners don't help the matter by showing their disdain for Saudi masters not in words but in actions..Foreigners know they hold the purse strings but have no knowledge or skills and they need them desperately to run their country. Saudis in order to compensate for their insecurity and to show their power come up with punitive rules to convey to foreigners that they are the masters..
Saudis have entered 21st century in 1980's with oil money and their whole cities and system was build by westerners with very little Saudi input and active participation. The current system has very little connection with their centuries old ststem,..no idea what whether they had any...their old bazzars "suiks" have all of sudden disappeared and replaced by western style malls...
Even the commoners are very Islamic and would kill their women and Kaffirs if they stepped out of boundaries laid by Islam. Religious Mullahs have huge following among commoners. |
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bush badee
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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The Sauds now are making a big showing of trying to Saudize the Saudi work force.
I do not know if they are having success but I have heard complaints from the foreign workers as sauds try to take over their jobs.
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Karin
Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 727
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 10:02 am Post subject: |
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I think all these foreign, especially western, knowledge workers should just pack up and get the hell out of there. Anybody with technical expertise or practical mechanical skills should come home and leave them in the lurch with broken phone systems, computer networks, and toilets. The Saudis failed to protect the foreigners from the Ryadh bombing a few months ago, in spite of very credible threat intelligence.
There isn't a salary in the world that anyone could pay me to make me go to Saudi and work. I can't understand why these oil executives, etc. endanger their families and themselves by taking these ex-pat jobs.
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bread
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Bush,
The Arab masses are naturally xenophobic, and ANY governemnt which caters to these thought and wishes becomes wildly popular. You got to undesrtand that about the Arab mindset. No chief of state who stands up to the Americans, or any other non-Arab power is unpopular. The results dont matter.
Eg: Saddam was popular on the Arab street, because he fought the West. He was NOT unpopular because he lost MISERABLY. Gaddafy is popular in Lybia because he faced down the West, UN and World Community for decaedes. It doesnt matter that he empoverished his country in the process. All these habits are Quran based and they are ingrained in the society, even among the so-called secular ones.
Lybia also made shows of kicking out foreign workers, as di Egypt and Iraq (pre-1990 Kuwaity adventure). Now the Saudis are doing the same numbers game.
In the past, the dozen or so Arab countries with large % of foreign workers FAILED to replace highly skilled foreign workers and experts. They only succeeded in replacing (partially only) the lower or middle skill level foreign workers.
Saudi Arabia TODAY, has no interest in really Saudizing the work force, either for the low-middle or for the highly skilled work force. Its all a show. For thje last 12years of declared government wish to replace the foreigners with Saudis they only succeede in increasing their numbers (from 4.5 to 6.5   )
Why? 1) the highkly skiled cannot be replaced for lack of domestic expertise.
2) the middle ones would necessitate the formation of a domestic industrila work force. That would mean, an Arabian working class, proletarian movements which ALL industrailising countries passed through, with strikes, labout unions, left wing parties etc. TOO MUCH headache for the lazy Sauds to control adequately. So its a non-starter in the near future
3) the low level skills are paid wages below living rates. They only survive because after a few months they go back to their lower prices copuntries (Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc.) where their savings stretch further than in the higher prices land of Arabia. PAying Saudi coomoners such low wages would radicalise them even more. It would also require TEACHING them the indusrial skills to fill these jobs. But that would go against the Princes policy to keep them low educated, low organised and low skilled.
Most of All the PRinces want domestic tranquility and would do anything to maintain it. If That means importing milliions of professionals and industrial workers from abroad and under-educating your domestic polulation, then so be it. If it means fomenting Islamic expansionism and terrorism abroad so as to deflect domestic criticism from the ruling PRinces and keeping the commoners mostly illiterate and indictrinated in extremist religios schools, then so be it.
As long as the oil revenue cascades in the PRinces coffers and the world doesnt call them to account for their sponsoring of Wahhabist violence like AL-Qaida, etc, outside their borders they will continue doing it. |
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Antonia
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 481
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bread
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Gee Antonia, do you think the Western leaders read those same news? I guess not, becaue they call the Saudis `friends and trusted allies`in the War on Terror. I guess they missed the part where the SAME Saudis are FINANCING the same war on terror (the jihadi side of it).
While the Saudi population not under direct employ of the spoiled princes sinks deeper into squalor and poverty, the princes throw millions to Hamas. How nice.
25% unemployment? no problem! 63% iliteracy rate? no problem! exploding national debt? no problem! They just have to keep those millions rolling for Hamas and other criminals.
And let the poor eat cake. |
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Unknown 279
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 172
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bush badee
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Atonnia wrote
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85,000 princes. Indecent! They have the breeding habits of a pack of dogs. I suppose 10 years from now, they will be expecting aid from the west to feed that passel of brats.
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More like a pack of cockaroaches.
Perhaps that is what we should feed them, cockaroach poison for all the troubles they have caused the world..
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The Arab masses are naturally xenophobic, and ANY governemnt which caters to these thought and wishes becomes wildly popular. |
Bread, you do not leave much to argue about.
Another of your excellent posts.
Karen wrote.
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I can't understand why these oil executives, etc. endanger their families and themselves by taking these ex-pat jobs.
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For the same reason that teen agers drive so recklessly, they think it will not happen to them, but eventually it does.
Yesterday I had some teen ager driving about 5 feet behind me on a mountain road and talking on a phone.
I tapped my brake and he almost lost control of his car and went over the double line into oncoming traffic. What if an animal had really ran across the road and I really hit my brakes.
We would all have been soup.
Sell so it is with these guys, the make great salaries, so they follow right behind and when the joy ride stops, they and their family will end up as soup. And the funny thing is that they all think they have lots of saudi friends and neigbors who love them.
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Unknown 279
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 172
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:20 am Post subject: |
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With Friends Like the Saudis.......
http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn19.html
The Saudis set up schools that turn out terrorists. They set up Islamic lobby groups that put spies in our military bases and terror recuiters in our prisons. They set up think tanks that buy and neuter the U.S. diplomatic corps, and their Ambassodor's wife funnels charitable donations to the 9-11 hijackers.
But, its all just an unfortunate coincidence, isn't it? After all, the Saudis are out friends. Thank goodness. |
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