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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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 Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 6:28 pm Post subject: Women protected in western societies? |
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Muslim-haters here like to say Islam discriminates women. However, if you want to throw slime at others, the rule is that you have to make sure your own backyard is clean. In this thread I have created, I am going to show you that the very system you Muslim-haters support (as opposed against Islam), is guilty of women oppression.
I have discussed this topic in another thread, “Aisha revisited”, how in spite of laws to protect women in the US, sex discrimination still exists at a large scale.
http://forum.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?t=3541&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=682
I have shown how this sex discrimination is systematic and how plaintiffs find it ever so difficult to bring justice to the offenders. And not only that! I have also shown how women themselves, protect these offenders and continue to propagate this offence, against their fellow womenfolk.
In the “Aisha revisited” thread, Cardinalfedra and Ampbreia actually defended the oppression of women, while Anahita and Crow, who condemned Islam, simply remained stonily silent, when I showed that western systems segregate, discriminate – and even oppressed women!
So for all the boasts that the US is democratic, fair to all and has no gender inequality, it is shown that by far, US is far more repressive to women than any other system – including Islam – the very teaching Muslim-haters residing in this hate-site try to portray. Here are my arguments.
This link tells us about a giant American MNC that is being sued by female employees for sexual discrimination. See? Sex discrimination in US exists, not just in a small scale, but in a systematic manner.
http://www.detnews.com/2003/business/0304/28/business-148726.htm
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Wal-Mart Stores Inc. female employees said in a lawsuit seeking lost pay and damages on behalf of as many as 1.6 million female workers that they had to visit strip clubs while on business and were called "little Janie Qs" by male managers.
Statements from 110 female workers claiming they were denied promotions and paid less than men were filed in a motion requesting class-action status…. |
But that is not the only “shocker”. Here is another shocker. A woman, yeah that’s right, a woman defends Wal-mart, the alleged offender, against her own kind! No doubt she is paid to do that. But then again, is not Wal-mart using the systematic approach, using a woman to do the dirty job of discriminating other women?
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Mona Williams, a Wal-Mart spokeswoman, denied the allegations. "There's no basis for a finding of system-wide discrimination," Williams said. "Wal-Mart is committed to making sure that all of our associates are treated fairly when it comes to advancement and pay."…..
Williams denied that there were system-wide pay discrepancies at the company, saying "nine out of 10 times, women and men are paid equally." she said. About 40 percent of managers at Wal-Mart are women.
She said she was not aware of any incidents involving Hooters or strip clubs and that there could be "a few knuckleheads who make the wrong decisions." The women who brought the suit "comprise a very small percentage and are not representative" of the female workforce, she said…..
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One major grievance among the women workers is that they are paid less than the men. But hey, isn’t that a common practice in all major companies in the US? 
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The suit was filed in federal court in San Francisco by six female employees in June 2001. An expert hired by the plaintiffs estimated that women store managers earned $89,280 in 2001, $16,402 less than male store managers, court records show. Female cashiers made $13,831, or $694 less than men.
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And lookie who is around to defend. Yep, the same woman!
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Williams denied that there were system-wide pay discrepancies at the company, saying "nine out of 10 times, women and men are paid equally." she said. About 40 percent of managers at Wal-Mart are women.
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40 percent she says? Well, that’s a different story from this one!
http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1253396&nav=0RaPFUvH
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Columbia) April 28, 2003 - The suit brought by current and former Wal-Mart employees against the nation's largest retailer claims women are systematically prevented from climbing the corporate ladder at the company and claims they earn less than male…..
….Women make up more than half of the company's 1.3 employees, but only 14% of the company's store managers are women, and only seven percent of regional managers are women.
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So is it 14% or 40%?
Hahaha. Didn’t I say systematic discrimination of women? Hey, Muslim-haters, isn’t this what you accuse Muslim societies of? But wait, there is more to come. Not only these poor women face discrimination, they face sexual harassment.
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…More than a hundred of those women, current and former Wal-Mart workers, have signed on to a major lawsuit against the company. The legal action began last year in California with a group of seven women charging systematic sex discrimination, including extensive claims of sexual harrassment…
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Now in the “Aisha” thread, Muslim-haters have argued that the western system is superior to Islam because in the western system, women have the option to sue and take action. Let us see how effective this system is. Here is what actually happened in Wal-Mart.
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…A Sumter woman, an assistant manager, says after she accused a male co-manager of groping her and pulling her shirt up, she was denied a promotion. She says the man was later allowed to evaluate her job performance….
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So after making a complaint about sexual harassment, instead of justice being meted out to the offender, not only the offender got off scot-free and the victim got punished, the offender became her boss! And this is the American system you Muslim-haters are so proud of, using it to compare against Islam. What a laugh!
At least, in the Islamic context, the man would be facing the whip! And to add insult to injury, women employees are made to go to strip clubs!
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Among the more outrageous allegations, that women managers had to go to strip clubs and Hooters restaurants during business-related activities.
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I wonder if they were there to watch or perform. 
Now of course I can here cries from Muslim-haters residing in this hate-site that in US, you have the option to sue. Well, well, well. Sure you can sue and you can sue and you can sue. The question is will you win the lawsuit and get justice? Or will you lose and the defendant mete out more injustice to you, for suing them?
Let us look into this following link. Wal-mart has been sued thousands of times for in the year 2000. Have the plaintiffs benefited? Or does it harden Wal-mart’s stand, making it more resolute and even more equipped to further discriminate women?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/08/14/walmart-usat.htm
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08/13/2001 - Updated 11:51 PM ET
Lawsuits a volume business at Wal-Mart
By Richard Willing, USA TODAY
Wal-Mart is a legend in American business, a 39-year-old retail dynamo that trails only ExxonMobil in annual revenue. But in America's courtrooms, Wal-Mart has another distinction: As the company's sales have soared, analysts say, it appears to have become the nation's most popular private-sector target for lawsuits.
By its own count, Wal-Mart was sued 4,851 times last year — or nearly once every two hours, every day of the year. Juries decide a case in which Wal-Mart is a defendant about six times every business day, usually in favor of the Bentonville, Ark., retail giant. Wal-Mart lawyers list about 9,400 open cases.…
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Now let us look at how effective the system is. Yes, the very system Muslim-haters take pride to make Islam look small…
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…..Wal-Mart, which promotes itself as a down-home friendly business, is helping change the nature of corporate litigation by aggressively fighting many cases even when it would be cheaper for the company to settle, analysts say.
The policy runs counter to the strategy of "settle quickly and cut your losses" that companies have used for generations. But it is paying dividends for Wal-Mart, which in the past five years has seen the pace of its lawsuits stabilize as potential plaintiffs and their lawyers opt not to sue after weighing the costs of fighting the retailer.
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Hahaha! Heard that Muslim-haters? Heard that????. Here we have Muslim-haters condemning Islam for sex discrimination and what not. Then they claim with pride, arrogance and haughtiness that they system allows them to take action against offenders.
But what good is that system that allows them to take action if it does not deliver the goodies??????
But wait, that is not the last shocker Muslim-haters have to face. Another shocker awaits. Wal-mart’s dirty underhand tactics, which has now become the trademark of the US system, which Muslim-haters are so proud of, is now being mimicked and copied by other oppressing American organisations.
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….Insurance companies, drug makers and other frequently sued businesses have kept an eye on the retailer's legal tactics, and have adopted some of them.
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So you see Muslim-haters, while you laugh and spite Muslim societies discrimination against women, realise that women too are being discriminated in your own system. And to sue, is not that easy. Here are some reasons why it is getting difficult to sue em. Continued from the same link.
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….Like Wal-Mart, the companies have tried to take advantage of a changing legal climate that lately has favored corporate defendants. A national survey this year by Jury Verdict Research, a Horsham, Pa., firm, found that the median award in 1999 for compensatory damages — $50,000 — was the same as it had been in 1993.
"There is definitely a backlash (against) plaintiffs," says Ralph Bellafatto, an Easton, Pa., lawyer who represents two injured Furby shoppers. "With jurors now, it's like, `Why do you deserve something for your problem? I'm not getting any help with mine.' "….
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A system that favours companies and not you? Hey I thought you Muslim-haters say your system is democratic, unlike Islamic systems!
Yes, yes, I forgot. Western democracy means those who have the money have the last say.
Well Muslim-haters, there is a side effect to all these suits. Now companies are fighting back and it affects your privacy. Read this link yourself.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/nycu/tech/articles/970915/15priv.htm
Freedom in your country? Hahaha.
So any Muslim-haters who still like to say that women are segregated in Muslim nations and that women in western societies have the option to take corrective action, please reflect the above.
Clean up your backyard before condemning others.
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!”  |
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cardinalfedra
Joined: 22 Aug 2002
Posts: 584
Location: Isle of Lucy
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So for all the boasts that the US is democratic, fair to all and has no gender inequality, it is shown that by far, US is far more repressive to women than any other system – including Islam – the very teaching Muslim-haters residing in this hate-site try to portray. Here are my arguments. |
Gee if that is true, why is it that in the US women can go where ever they like and do what ever they want, with out having the permission of their menfolk, why is it they can have male platonic friends and are free to associate with whomever they want to, why is it that they can wear whatever they like, why is it that they can initiate divorce just as easy as their husbands. Can women in Saudi Arabia do this? No.
My whole point was to tell you that women here have options and opportunities to make it on their own. In Islamic countries, there are none aside from being a slave to your menfolk. |
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Cardinalfedra
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My whole point was to tell you that women here have options and opportunities to make it on their own.
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Deny, deny, deny! Options and opportunities to what? To have the men harass, taunt, tease, humiliate you while they take higher pay and higher ranked jobs from you? That they get all the glamour for raising the company to greater heights while you have to serve them?
That they get to make you wear short skirts, that hardly cover your bottoms and tight blouses that accentuate your curvy bosom, so that they can enjoy visual stimulation at your expense? That they can squeeze through crowded stations and feel you up in pretence that it is a crowded place?
That they make your fellow womenfolk undress, in advertisements that hardly have anything to do with women, let alone young and sexy ones?
That they can demand sex from you and make you pay for it through a demotion or other means if you refuse? Is that what you call “freedom”?
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In Islamic countries, there are none aside from being a slave to your menfolk.
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In Islamic countries, we don’t have the problems I showed you above. So who are being slaves to men? Muslim women or western women?
You see, the saying the women contradict what they say is true. There is a well-known joke that the difference between a diplomat and a lady.
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If a diplomat says “yes”, he means “maybe”.
If he says “maybe” he means “no”.
If he says “no”, he ain’t no diplomat.
If a lady says “no” she means “maybe”.
If she says “maybe”, she means “yes”.
If she says “yes”, she ain’t no lady.
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How true. Isn’t your denial that the existence of discrimination against women in your society very typical of an American woman? She not only refuses to admit the truth, she defends her oppressors at her very own expense!
Lemme continue the joke.
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If a Muslim woman keeps harassing her husband, it means she very happy she is married to him.
If she stops harassing him, it means there is something she is not happy with him.
If she bitches about him or the system, it means that the divorce has already taken place.
If a western woman bitches about her husband, it means that she is trying her best to show that she is the head of the house, but still ends up being the bruised one.
If she stops bitching about him, it means she has quietly filed for a divorce.
If she continues to harass him or bitches about the system, it means that she thought the divorce would go her way – but obviously, it didn’t.
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Hey, isn’t that really, really typical in this real world between Muslim and western marriages?
So carry on with your make-believe world that your society looks after women’s needs. Carry on fooling yourselves. It makes it so much easier for the men to continue their oppression, when the women themselves deny there is a problem in the first place!
Right, here are some women suckers, who claim to be feminists, protecting and fighting for “women’s rights”. They say they are fighting for equality. But if you look carefully, they are only pushing the agendas that benefit the men. So in fact, they are suckers to men! What a joke! What a laugh!
Western men have successfully used women as suckers to propagate the very agendas the men seek. Cleverly done huh?
This link tells you how a feminist, Wendy McElroy argues that banning of pornography endangers women! Hah! Can you believe that???? While every fool knows that pornography demeans women to the level of sex objects, we have a clownish feminist who fights for the existence of pornography!
So this woman sucker, whom Cardinalfedra will vouch that she is exercising her rights, is actually pushing the agenda of men, at the expense of women.
Hahahaha! Read the article yourself. Just look at how she argues pornography ain’t bad for women! You would have thought she was a porn-peddler! You’ve gotta to see to believe it!
http://www.isil.org/resources/lit/banning-porn.html
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…..Regarding the first question, I appealed directly to women who were involved in the production of hard-core pornography such as S/M, where it seemed most likely that violence would occur. In the hundreds of such adult women I spoke with, every single one said they had not been coerced into performing pornography, nor did they know of a woman who had been. I decided to take the articulate voices of these adult women seriously and not dismiss them, as anti-porn feminists were doing.
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So she tries to demolish the fact that women are being used, by saying such women did it out of their own free will. But as if that is not enough, she even argues that pornography benefits women!
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BENEFITS OF PORNOGRAPHY
Indeed, pornography brings benefits to women. In censoring pornography, the state will impoverish rather than enrich them. Lisa Duggan explains:
"The existence of pornography has served to flout conventional sexual mores, to ridicule sexual hypocrisy and to underscore the importance of sexual needs. Pornography carries many messages . . . it advocates sexual adventure, sex outside of marriage, sex for pleasure, casual sex, illegal sex, anonymous sex, public sex, voyeuristic sex. Some of these ideas appeal to women reading or seeing pornography, who may interpret some images as legitimating their own sense of sexual urgency or desire to be sexually aggressive."
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Hahaha….sumbuddy help me…I’m gonna to die laughing……
Hey, note that McElroy was quoting another lady, Lisa Duggan, who obviously supports pornography too, which happens to reduce women to nothing more than walking pussies on two legs! Now we have two prominent feminists doing the job for the men to enjoy. What a laugh.
Hey, Cardinalfedra, Ambreia, Crow, Anahita, since you ladies are so pro-western-ideology-based, and since you believe your system is so superior and liberating, favouring women all the way, why don’t you join the porn industry? Help your womenfolk benefit through porn, as the two ladies above argued – and at the same time make yourself tons of money, will yer? I am sure many guys in this forum would love to see more of you, than just your avatars, if they had the choice.
So can you not women suckers see that western men are using you women to advance the agendas of men, in pretence of advancing the cause of women? Be truthful now. Who stands to gain more from porn? Men or women? Who consumes porn more, men or women? Who are the main subjects of porn, men or women?
Yet, we have two feminists fighting for pornography?????
So cut that crap that women are being treated fairly in western society. You have been suckered to fight for the cause of men at your own expense. If you don’t believe me, then why don’t you become a porn star yourself, and see if that is really gratifying or humiliating?
Right, here is another link, this time from a different angle. This time, the author is Asian. A Japanese to be more precise. She argues that women are in control of men in the workplace – Japanese style. Nope, it is not the hardworking culture of the Japanese she is propagating. It is the culture of man boss, woman slave. But slave controls boss! So women should be glad to be slave to men!
Hey, western women won’t like it huh? But you see, Japanese women have a different culture. While both the east and west still harbour the thoughts “man boss, woman slave”, Asian women turn that culture to their advantage, whereas western women only pretend the problem does not exist – even to the point of fighting for the further advancement of western men’s self-interests! Read it to believe it!
Yuko Ogasawara, Office Ladies and the Freedom of the Discriminated
http://www.nichibei.org/je/ogasawara.html
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Ofisu redi (office lady), or OL for short, is a term coined in the early 1960s for female office workers who do word processing, perform elementary accounting, and operate copiers and facsimile machines. They are sometimes also called to do various chores, such as serving tea to their male colleagues or to company visitors, wiping the surface of desks with wet towels, and taking telephone calls. Not exactly the kind of job that most American women seek. However, approximately one-third of working women in Japan hold this position…..
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Good, she points out that this is not favoured among Americans. But wait, she now taunts you Americans how Japanese women are better off than you!
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…..The position of OL seems to lead nowhere but to a case study of oppression. However, I have found in my survey based on participant observation in a Japanese bank and through interviews with 30 OLs and ex-OLs and with 30 businessmen that this smothering lack of opportunity can in some ways be liberating. While many men work hard to make their way up the corporate ladder, most OLs expect and are expected to quit after several years of service. OLs are usually exempt from strict performance reviews. Because they are excluded from the race for promotion, they have almost nothing to lose. They resist male dominance. Furthermore, they have the potential to spoil, if not ruin, the reputations of their male co-workers.…..
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Typical of a bitching woman you say? Not at all! While western women would use the above to bring down men they hate, Japanese women use that to help themselves gain status. Let us see how that works.
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…..Because OLs do the majority of menial work for male employees, the men are highly dependent on them. If the menial work is not done, the "man's work" is not done. One source of women's leverage, therefore, is the strict sexual division of labor in most Japanese offices that leaves men dependent on female employees for such details as where files are stored or how to fix a jammed copying machine.
In addition, there is the potency of women's gossip about male co-workers and the fabrication of male reputations by comparing men with one another. The female gaze is a matter of men's concern, since a man's promotion is based in part on how well he manages his subordinates, including his team of OLs. For example, a man whose assistant "boycotted" him after a quarrel and refused to send a telex complained to his (male) boss that he could not get his assistant's cooperation. Instead of reproaching the uncooperative OL, the boss criticized the man for not knowing how to manage women. In the end, the man had to learn to type and send his telex himself.
The result is an office where men take pains not to offend women, study women's moods, and even curry women's favor. Contrary to intuitive thought, men in positions of authority care more about the feelings of subordinate women than subordinate women do about the feelings of men in authority. I therefore argue that macro-level power relations are not necessarily reproduced in micro-level interactions, and may even be reversed.
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So you see, while western women pretend they have been liberated, it is Asian women who know how to make the best of situations and got the better of their men – and their women counterparts in the west, as far as working environment in concerned.
And here is one thing many, many western women can only dream of, because western men have now treated you as “equals” (which means…..“I only open doors, pull chairs and give flowers to ladies…..but you ain’t no lady”…)
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…..Some men attempt to maintain good relationships with OLs via small and large gifts, meals at restaurants, and flattery.
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Awww….ain’t that sweet? Now isn’t that what women really like to see in gentlemen? Now how is it that there ain’t no gentlemen in your country? Or is it there ain’t no ladies, that’s the problem?
Still not convinced? Now let us see Woman Power, Japanese style!
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Men who fail to maintain good relationships with OLs must prepare to face their defiance. OLs can annoy and trouble men in various forms. First, they can resist by not taking the initiative. For example, when typing a document, an OL can make life easier for a man she likes by voluntarily double-checking unclear points, but she may refuse to do the same for a man she dislikes……..
….Second, OLs can decline men's requests to do extra work.…….
Third, OLs can refuse not only to do favors but also to work. If an OL is asked to perform a task by a man she does not like, she may agree and then neglect the task…….
…..Lastly, one of the harshest and most humiliating treatments is called sosukan (total neglect). In this, not only the man's assistant but many other OLs plot together to ignore him. They ostensibly behave as though the victim did not exist. They minimize the amount of words they exchange with him, and when they have to speak to him at all, they do so bluntly or without looking in his direction. Even a high-ranking manager with power over personnel management can be defenseless against sosukan; it is a movement supported by many OLs. To penalized an OL for acting improperly is one thing, but it is quite another to assert that many OLs had done so. A man who makes such an assertion is likely to embarrass himself by disclosing his inability to supervise OLs.…..
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The above article shows the different paths taken by different cultures to tackle the same problem – discrimination against women.
But while the Japanese have given their men their fair share of their own medicine, you western women can only bawl, cry, scream and wail like mad, telling everyone that you can sue your oppressors, not realising you hardly win those suits.
So boast all you like. Know that your sex discrimination occurs worldwide.
Know also that your system sux and does not help women one stinking bit. Even Japanese women got it better than you!
Here is another link, to serve as stark reminder to you women suckers who think you had it made. This is a preview, by Willam H Chafe, author of The Paradox of Change American Women in the 20th Century. Note that this time, the author is a western man. Say, don’t men tell things as they are, compared to western women who only gripe?
http://www.oup-usa.org/isbn/0195044193.html
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Chafe conveys all the subtleties of women's paradoxical position in the United States today, showing how women have gradually entered more fully into economic and political life, but without attaining complete social equality or economic justice. Despite the gains achieved by feminist activists during the 1970s and 1980s, the tensions continued to abound between public and private roles, and the gap separating ideals of equal opportunity from the reality of economic discrimination widened. Women may have gained some new rights in the last two decades, but the feminization of poverty has also soared, with women constituting 70% of the adult poor.
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Now will you clean up your backyard before condemning others of suppressing their women?
A Muslim woman has her head covered by the hijab. God bless her!
A Japanese woman has her ass covered by her boss. Boss loves her!
A Western woman has her accidental nipple-slip-peekaboo-through-her-low-cut covered by the media's front page in full colour. Whooooweee! Hey, sweetie, can you open up your legs too???
Western society respects the woman? PTOOOI!
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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Medi Terraneus
Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 291
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Hi Abdullahnoor!
You seem to be in a weird good-mood... I dont see what's so funny 
Aren't you (and your peers) too much 'sex-sensitive'? I've noticed muslim men always resort to this 'short skirts' 'half-naked' 'visible thighs' 'whores' 'porno' 'sex' thing whenever this subject arises.
But you are right in one thing you are conveying : equality women/men is not fulfilled yet. Too many years under the influence of man-made religions  man-made culture man-made laws 
However, thanks to daily personal struggles, our present lifes are much better than those of our poor mothers, not to mention grandmothers... despite the disadvantages that our competitive materialistic life bring about. But that is a different issue. You can stand aside of it all. I do, for example.
Go ask any present woman if she would prefer to have the benefits of her grandma's rights...
About those examples you find so funny... exceptions won't spoil the rule. And the rule is simple: western women have now more freedom available than in the past.
Whatever use we make of if, it's our choice. 
_________________
When somebody tells me that I am too old to do something, I rush to do it.
(Pablo Picasso) |
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cardinalfedra
Joined: 22 Aug 2002
Posts: 584
Location: Isle of Lucy
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2003 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Deny, deny, deny! Options and opportunities to what? To have the men harass, taunt, tease, humiliate you while they take higher pay and higher ranked jobs from you? That they get all the glamour for raising the company to greater heights while you have to serve them?
That they get to make you wear short skirts, that hardly cover your bottoms and tight blouses that accentuate your curvy bosom, so that they can enjoy visual stimulation at your expense? That they can squeeze through crowded stations and feel you up in pretence that it is a crowded place? |
It is you who are in denial. I work in a male dominated field and I have never experienced what you claim and neither has any woman I know. Many many men work for female bosses. Who are these people making me wear short skirts? As I said, I was a tomboy growing up and in my off hours I wear men's clothing--jeans in winter, shorts in summer. Why, cause I dress for comfort not for fashion. As far as business clothes are concerned, its the standard suit, the kind that Margaret Thatcher used to wear in the 80s. But then again you probably think that since Mrs. Thatcher walked about with hair and calves exposed she some sort of brazen strumpet. It's a bit dowdy and formal for my taste, I would much before to wear shorts and tshirts in the summer, and jeans and sweatshirts in the winter, but the job does require a professional looking appearance.
| Quote: | | That they make your fellow womenfolk undress, in advertisements that hardly have anything to do with women, let alone young and sexy ones? |
Models are paid very handsome salaries. No one is being forced to do anything.
| Quote: | | That they can demand sex from you and make you pay for it through a demotion or other means if you refuse? Is that what you call “freedom”? |
Again when did this ever happen to me? If it ever did, I'd sue the bloody hell out of the company. Now what are the options in Islamic countries? Oh yeah, if a woman walks down the street with fingernails or hair exposed, she gets beaten up by the morality people. And if her case goes against her, which it nearly always will considering the Islam's misogynistic view of a woman's testimony, she gets a whipping, or is stoned to death!
| Quote: | | In Islamic countries, we don’t have the problems I showed you above. So who are being slaves to men? Muslim women or western women? |
Women in Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia need permission from their menfolk to go anywhere and they need to be chaperoned and they have to go out dressed like the Angel of Death in sweltering weather whenever they do go out lest they get beaten up by the morality police. Some freedom!
| Quote: | | How true. Isn’t your denial that the existence of discrimination against women in your society very typical of an American woman? She not only refuses to admit the truth, she defends her oppressors at her very own expense! |
Who is it that oppresses me? I do not deny that discrimination does occur in the West, it is you who denies the severe oppression that women face in Islamic countries. But my point is that there are options to deal with it and the worst thing that will happen is that you might lose your case, but you aren't going to whipped or killed if you do as would be the case in Islamic countries. What are a woman's chances of winning a case in Islamic countries where according to Islam, a woman's testimony is one half a man's? Or if a woman is found to be unIslamically dressed, the blame is entirely put on her?
How do you think things ever get changed in the West? But then again, Islam teaches its followers to be very fatalistic--everything is the will of Allah--and so in Islam nothing ever does get changed. Where is that history of the Islamic Anti-Slavery Society? Who were the Muslim equivalents to Harriet Tubman and Sojourner Truth? Oh BTW, Tubman and Truth were women. They also were ex-slaves. In fact women, both black and white, were in the forefront of abolitionist movement, as they were in the forefront of every progressive reform movement. |
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hinduwoman
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 1092
Location: India
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2003 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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The position is something like this: half a loaf is better than none.
women are still harassed, but at least they do not have to wear the veil and can take jobs and spend their own money, and go anywhere they please.
No Islamic state gives such rights.
_________________
May facts and logic always win over 'feel-good' factor. |
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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Medi Terraneus
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Aren't you (and your peers) too much 'sex-sensitive'? I've noticed muslim men always resort to this 'short skirts' 'half-naked' 'visible thighs' 'whores' 'porno' 'sex' thing whenever this subject arises.
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Likewise, aren’t you Muslim-haters always thinking of sex, sex and more sex? I too notice that Muslim-haters always resort to saying that Islam treats women as sex objects, hence they need to be covered, whenever this subject arises. But if you look carefully, who actually exploits women’s sexuality? Secular or Islamic teachings?
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However, thanks to daily personal struggles, our present lifes are much better than those of our poor mothers, not to mention grandmothers... despite the disadvantages that our competitive materialistic life bring about. But that is a different issue. You can stand aside of it all. I do, for example.
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Ah, but that is the biggest fallacy of the secular world! You keep saying you are “better off” than before. No doubt about that. But the next step proves fatal to gender equality. You see, because you are better off than your predecessors, there is a default judgment among the western women today, that the system is currently fair to women!
There lies the biggest fallacy of gender equality in the west!
Note the grave mistake you have done above. You have compared yourself to a horrendous period. Naturally, you look good. But the gender inequality still exists. The fatal flaw is that you now justify the current inequality and continue propagating this inequality, because of your comparison to your horrendous past.
But the biggest flaw is that even western women today buy that justification! Hence we now have feminists who defend the very system that discriminates women! In fact, feminists are now suckers to men. They even fight for the benefit of men, at the expense of women – thinking they are fighting for women’s rights. My link on the two feminists who fought for pornography is one fine example! So is the other example I gave in the Wal-mart case.
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Go ask any present woman if she would prefer to have the benefits of her grandma's rights...
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Bingo! I told you it works every time! Every western woman is a sucker. All you need to do is ask her, if she prefers to have the benefits of her grandma, when she asks for “more rights”. If she says “no”, then you have shut her up. Now you can just continue to oppress her, without her bugging you! Ain’t that what’s happenin in the US?
So the oppression of women continues. They get less pay. They get less favourable working terms and conditions. They lose out on promotions and pay increases. They lose out managerial positions. They get sexually harassed in the workplace. And so on and so on and so on …..
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About those examples you find so funny... exceptions won't spoil the rule. And the rule is simple: western women have now more freedom available than in the past.
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I know, I know, I know. Muslims too know that. What you don’t know and fail to realise, as well as refuse to acknowledge, is the above is the very tool used to shut western women up.
So are western women today satisfied with how they are treated by their men today? If yes, then know that Muslim women too are satisfied with how their men are treating them. So who are western women to say Muslim women are oppressed?
If western women are NOT satisfied with how they are treated by the men today, then I suggest that these women start cleaning their own backyard, before telling Muslim women that they are being oppressed.
Fair enough?
Cardinalfedra
You keep bringing up your personal experience. Are you belittling your fellow womenfolk when they claim they have been discriminated against?
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Models are paid very handsome salaries. No one is being forced to do anything.
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We are talking about two different professions here. Models are respected professionals. Porn stars are sluts. You are demeaning the good name of models.
Anyway, did you notice that you have once again played the sucker role? That you defended the agenda of men – pornography – at the expense of your own fellow womenfolk? You have been used and you don’t even realise it! You call this liberation of women?
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Women in Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia need permission from their menfolk to go anywhere and they need to be chaperoned and they have to go out dressed like the Angel of Death in sweltering weather whenever they do go out lest they get beaten up by the morality police. Some freedom!
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How many times does that happen? As often as a short-skirted girl gets raped in the streets of NY at night?
I really don’t understand the perverse rhetoric these western women use against Arab women. Does it affect you how Arab women live? Are you trying to say you are fighting for them? What if they told you they like it that way? Will you back off? Or will you say that no matter what, even if they say they like it, you don’t like it, and therefore they must do what you want them to do. Now I really don’t understand this. Isn’t this what you are really trying to impose?
Hey, but then again, doesn’t America always do that? Imposing their will on others? Like what Rumsfeld is trying to say to Iraq now, “You can have your own government, but that government must be the one we approve.” Hahahahahaaa. That’s democracy?
Now try reversing the situation. What if another society imposes their culture on you? Many of you imagine to great effect, claiming that Islam tries to rule the world. You show resentment. You say Islam is extreme because it wants your women covered. But you don’t want to cover yourself. So you resist. You now ask what right has an outside force, to tell you what is right for your women to wear.
So can you now see Muslims in Arab lands question your legitimacy, when you try to ask their women to uncover themselves? Or you prefer to remain a bigot, believing that you are the superior race, with the superior culture. Oh yes, this is a hate site. It propagates that you are superior. THAT IS A FACT YOU CANNOT DENY!!!!!
About your chance to sue the wrong doers. C’mon, you are only reaffirming what I have said about your democracy in the Aisha thread. That means democracy is for those with money and influence. Those who cannot afford to sue, either due to lack of finance, or lack of clout to influence the judiciary, will lose. Those with money and power will win. Who is right or wrong is secondary. Who is most influential is primary. Is that democracy?
Hinduwoman
Ah, so you have decided to join the party! C’mon, I say the best test is when you are in it! So you believe the western system is good. Now why don’t you test it?
Now notice that two feminists said that pornography benefits women. I invited Cardinalfedra, Ampbreia, Crow and Anahita to join the porn industry and tell us if it really is gratifying or humiliating. They remained silent. Very telling, aint it?
You see, pornography is one area where it is the men who want it and it is the women who are being used. Pro-porners argue that these women are paid (note Cardinalfedra’s reply to me) and therefore are not oppressed. Good. Then why don’t these men who like to ogle women’s tits and pussies ask their mothers, wives, sisters and daughters to join the industry too? They won’t like that? But hey, aren’t those women they just ogled, somebody else’s mother, wife, sister or daughter? Hypocrites they are huh?
You see, Hinduwoman, men have now used women to fight their agenda. The link I gave in my last post, shows that two feminists, Wendy McElroy and Lisa Duggan, spoke for pornography. So while men keep using women, women keep supporting men.
That is what you have just done, Hinduwoman. You even justified their oppression against you by saying, “half a loaf is better than none” and “others are worse off”. So because they are worse off, you now submit yourself to be oppressed, albeit less than others. Congratulations! We have another woman sucker here!
You say half a loaf is better than none? You allow yourself to be oppressed if it is less than the oppression other women face? I tell you what. Put your money where your mouth is.
On the extreme end of pornography we have torture, bestiality and sadism. Any normal woman will find that sickening to the core, because it degrades women to such filth, just for the enjoyment of men. But since you allow yourself to be oppressed to a lesser degree, why don’t you just bare your tits and pussy for any girlie magazine - which is more dignified than BDSM (half a loaf is better than none, remember?), and then tell us how liberated you feel exposing your most intimate private parts to the mainly male audience.
Find the above repulsive? Well, then know that when you say “half a loaf is better than none”, you are giving the men the licence to oppress you “half the degree of what other women are being oppressed”!
Notice that, like Ampbreia and Cardinalfedra, you have actually defended western men in oppressing women? What a laugh! Are you women not suckers?
Keep going this way ladies. You will find a hard time convincing Muslim women your system is superior.
As I said before, clean up your own stinking backyard, before condemning others.
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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Medi Terraneus
Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 291
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 1:18 am Post subject: |
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Abdullanoorh,
First of all, please quit this corny 'muslim-haters' thing. I dont hate anyone here. In my opinion we are all victims of our gods. I sympathize with everybody. We humans are born, grow and die like any other animal and vegetable. And we have to make the best of our lifes.
If a religious woman/man believes in a paradise, so much the best for her/him. The rest of us just expect and hope to live as happily as we can without harming anybody or ourselves and have a quiet death.
Okay. I'm in my job place and I have not much time to devote it to a detailed answer to your post answering mine.
Suffice to say that women in both societies (muslim and non-muslim) do have their own sad struggles to lead their lifes with dignity and equality.
For you it is really easy to find official links and information about our 'casuistic' cases. Instead, probably I would not find many official 'reports' on muslim 'casuistic'. I bet you don't hear much of it on your local TVs and newspaper, uh?
Therefore, I will provide two examples I got from a muslim website. And I'll give you your very same tip: look at your backyard.
Here are just two examples, for what it is worth:
http://www.islam.com/all-replies.asp?d=207617&ct=13&mn=207617
| Quote: | Salaams,
Of course men have rights over their wives, but if the way they exercise those rights are making their wives hate them, then something is wrong! I know some men like to keep their wives at home because they are flirtatious or something, but you sound like you have not only aggreed to completely cover, but are mainly interested in being with other muslim sisters! So many muslim men treat their wives like pets, or worse. What creature, human or not, can be caged all day long and be happy? None, as far as I know. Sister, perhaps one night when he comes home you should be very kind to him and ask if you two can have a talk. Then you should, without getting angry, explain how you feel and I would even tell him that his behaviour is starting to make you resent him. As a newlywed he might just be starting off overprotective and perhaps you two could come to some sort of compromise. If he is unbendable, then you need to think about spending the rest of your life in this way and if you can. He is trying to isolate you as much as possible so that only person who can have any influence over you is him. If that is the way he is, I would seriously start questioning why he likes that and whether he views you as his property to oppress. First sit down with him though and talk, amybe he is just insecure! I will make dua for you. Salaams.
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And look at one of the short incredible answers she got:
| Quote: | | I dont think your telling the truth. |
Another example:
http://www.islam.com/all-replies.asp?id=207957&ct=13&mn=207957
| Quote: | | I HAVE AN ARRANGED MARRIAGE. I FEEL LIKE HE USED ME TO COME TO AMERICA. HE SAYS HE LOVES ME BUT HE RARELY HELPS AROUND THE HOUSE, IS CARELESS, SENDS ALOT OF HIS INCOME TO HIS FAMILY WHILE I WORK AND GO TO SCHOOL AND TAKE CARE OF OUR CHILD. HE HAS RECENTLY STARTED SMOKING AND UNFORTUNATLY I AM NOT ATTRACTED TO HIM. WHAT SHOULD I DO? |
And an the practical answer she got:
| Quote: | | well what u should do...hmmm its complicated becuase u didn't give much information...but first u should address him and tlel him how u feel, because u might just be paranoid... |
Yes, Abdullanoorh, we western women have not yet reached the best of our freedom, but muslim women are still in those past times I mentioned in my previous post and that you seem to prefer to skip over.
We have to look backwards to see if / how much we have advanced. And I tell you: we have advanced.
There is not absolute freedom. Total freedom is a chimera, I'm aware of it. But then... you are right in saying we women are sometimes paying a high toll for it. We have to be mature enough to face that we have to give up some things to achieve our autonomy. As I said in my previous post, that is up to each woman to decide.
The problem are morals (=religions). Moral makes people apart. It tries to protect some values; instead, secular Ethics brings them closer, because Ethics search common values, permitting diversity. Without this structural base (universal rights) the differences easily end in confrontation.
The sad thing is that muslim women have still a long way to go to achieve a certain degree of freedom. What kind of freedom is for a muslim woman having to 'shelter' behind and under her husband?
Even sadder is that muslim men are just comfy with it.
_________________
When somebody tells me that I am too old to do something, I rush to do it.
(Pablo Picasso) |
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nina
Joined: 02 Sep 2002
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| abdulllahnoor wrote: | | I have shown how this sex discrimination is systematic and how plaintiffs find it ever so difficult to bring justice to the offenders. And not only that! I have also shown how women themselves, protect these offenders and continue to propagate this offence, against their fellow womenfolk. |
Dear Abdullahnoor, misogynist religions rule the world for so long now that oppression of women and bias against the sexes creeped into all systems and all ideology. All structures in which men and women are able to live on a more equal foot are destroyed and forgotten.
It's only recently that we are able to fight this, and that we are allowed to point to the biased and oppressive religions that kept alive the hierarchical systems, in which women are placed below men.
I am very happy with the situation we have now, but I'm not going to say that we won the battle. We did not win it by far, and we have a long way to go. Those religions that oppressed women also propagated hierarchical systems, with big differences in power or income. While we did manage to improve the relations between the sexes, the inequality in power relations is blooming at the moment.
At this point, 'feminism' (it's not really the proper word here, but I don't want to make it more complex) can go two ways: do we want to be able to get just as rich and powerful as man, so women too have the possibility to exploit and oppress other people? Or do we want a society that offers equal chances for each individual, so everybody can develop according to his or her individual needs, by decreasing the gap between those who have all the money and power, and those who have none?
So far, it's extremely important that men and women are at least treated equally by the laws, and that they are not obstructed by laws that formulate bias against the sexes.
| Quote: | So for all the boasts that the US is democratic, fair to all and has no gender inequality, it is shown that by far, US is far more repressive to women than any other system - including Islam - the very teaching Muslim-haters residing in this hate-site try to portray.
This link tells us about a giant American MNC that is being sued by female employees for sexual discrimination. See? Sex discrimination in US exists, not just in a small scale, but in a systematic manner.
http://www.detnews.com/2003/business/0304/28/business-148726.htm |
This is one of those things we are fighting against. I can give you other examples, like men in construction business who treat there business companions to visits to all kinds of brothels, and pass the costs on to the consumers - that's me.
Very nice. That's one of the consequences of the systematical oppression of women, that goes on for ages now. And islam is one of those systematical oppressors, along with the other religions that came forth from the same root. There is no way that islam is free from this contempt and exploitation.
For example, islam forbids prostitution. This means that prostitutes receive lashes, are stoned, or their throats are cut. Nevertheless, it exists in islamic countries. Since the men are the makers and keepers of law, they don't suffer as much from the prohibition as women do.
Many male muslims are active in the world that exploits women. Why? Not because islam forbids prostitution, but because islam teaches contempt for women and for female sexuality.
Islam does not protect these exploited women, but criminalizes them heavily, and punishes them cruelly.
By the way, your Wal-Mart example shows very well how women are the victims of power relations. I agree with you that this is very shameful and sexistic. But I would not be happy if women would take part in this system of power,
| Quote: | | One major grievance among the women workers is that they are paid less than the men. But hey, isn’t that a common practice in all major companies in the US? |
Actually, it's a step forward that women are paid for their work at all. During religious rule, they have to work for free. Women in household situations are not paid a dime for the work that they do, they just receive food and clothes. The family structure in which the man earns money and is the head of the family grants men all the power, while women are completely dependent of their husbands.
Here again, this situation is a consequence of the loss of structures in which men and women have equal power and equal possibilities. To improve this situation, we have to tackle the problems that we are confronted with. But it's better than going back to a system in which we have no money or autonomy at all.
| Quote: | | Hahaha. Didn’t I say systematic discrimination of women? Hey, Muslim-haters, isn’t this what you accuse Muslim societies of? |
Hater? I don't like sexism where I see it, wether it's islamic or western.
| Quote: | | Not only these poor women face discrimination, they face sexual harassment. |
I have never understood this. I work with men for about 25 years now, and I never faced sexual harassment. I faced some sexual attention, of course, but most of the time I was able to explain how I felt about that and to settle things. Something went wrong once, but okay, you learn from your mistakes.
Actually, I love working with my colleagues, of which most are male.
At first, I had some trouble with men because they took away all work from me, and said, 'let me do that for you' or 'let me carry that for you'. But I know now how to deal with this misplaced form of politeness now.
Would some colleague sexually harass me, I know that he knows that I know how to cut that short. And they respect me for that.
| Quote: | So after making a complaint about sexual harassment, instead of justice being meted out to the offender, not only the offender got off scot-free and the victim got punished, the offender became her boss! And this is the American system you Muslim-haters are so proud of, using it to compare against Islam. What a laugh!
At least, in the Islamic context, the man would be facing the whip! |
Actually, when the woman is not able to prove her case, she is the one who faces the whip.
| Quote: | | Now of course I can here cries from Muslim-haters residing in this hate-site that in US, you have the option to sue. Well, well, well. Sure you can sue and you can sue and you can sue. The question is will you win the lawsuit and get justice? Or will you lose and the defendant mete out more injustice to you, for suing them? |
That's right.
It's the same problem here. A combination of the still existing inequality of the sexes with the large difference in power and income. To solve this, we should not return to sexist rules and laws, but decrease the power relations.
It's not true at all by the way that women are completely powerless. After all, they have support of the common opinion. And with this support, things are improving.
The problem would be insoluble for women when they had the law, the religion, the public opinion as well as the power relations working against them.
| Quote: | | Hahaha! Heard that Muslim-haters? Heard that????. |
Well yes, I see that the article focusses on the problems, and criticizes the system. At least, that's positive. You can only fight injustice when you know it's there.
| Quote: | | A system that favours companies and not you? Hey I thought you Muslim-haters say your system is democratic, unlike Islamic systems! |
It's not my system, and I devote a lot of my time to criticize it, and to think of alternative systems. Patriarchal, hierarchical religions don't inspire me to find one, though.
| Quote: | | Yes, yes, I forgot. Western democracy means those who have the money have the last say. |
I came to the same conclusion. So far though, I'm not forced to convert to it. So I'm still able to criticize it. |
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nina
Joined: 02 Sep 2002
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That they get to make you wear short skirts, that hardly cover your bottoms and tight blouses that accentuate your curvy bosom, so that they can enjoy visual stimulation at your expense? |
When the weather is fine, I prefer that kind of clothing. What's wrong with visual stimulation? And it's not at my expense. 
| Quote: | | That they can squeeze through crowded stations and feel you up in pretence that it is a crowded place? |
Actually, I know this behaviour from muslim men.
| Quote: | | In Islamic countries, we don’t have the problems I showed you above. |
Now there's denial.
| Quote: | | While every fool knows that pornography demeans women to the level of sex objects, we have a clownish feminist who fights for the existence of pornography! |
The problem is not pornography, but again, the sexism and the power relations.
I don't understand how you can solve sexism by keeping your women in a bag with holes for the eyes.
| Quote: | | If you don’t believe me, then why don’t you become a porn star yourself, and see if that is really gratifying or humiliating? |
Why do you think that sex is humiliating for women but not for men?
| Quote: | | But if you look carefully, who actually exploits women’s sexuality? Secular or Islamic teachings? |
Islamic teachings. Women are kept in a bag, and used only for procreation by their legitimate owner.
| Quote: | | So are western women today satisfied with how they are treated by their men today? |
Yes. There has been a massive improvement lately. It's eons ago that I met a man who said that men are more intelligent than women - actually, the last ones were muslims on this forum.
| Quote: | | If yes, then know that Muslim women too are satisfied with how their men are treating them. |
That's true too. I read an article lately about a statistic that said that over 60% of the women in Turkey were of the opinion that women who were beaten by their husbands deserved to be beaten. |
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cardinalfedra
Joined: 22 Aug 2002
Posts: 584
Location: Isle of Lucy
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Likewise, aren’t you Muslim-haters always thinking of sex, sex and more sex? I too notice that Muslim-haters always resort to saying that Islam treats women as sex objects, hence they need to be covered, whenever this subject arises. But if you look carefully, who actually exploits women’s sexuality? Secular or Islamic teachings? |
| Quote: | | How many times does that happen? As often as a short-skirted girl gets raped in the streets of NY at night? |
Oh boy, the sexism never stops does it now! So a woman is to be blamed for leading a man on by her wearing of "provocative" clothing. You have just proved my point that Islam treats women as nothing but sex objects. That's why Muslimahs have to cover themselves up upon pain of being beaten--to protect the men from accidentally raping them. And even a stray strand of hair or a fingernail is enticing! So much for self-control!
| Quote: | | We are talking about two different professions here. Models are respected professionals. Porn stars are sluts. You are demeaning the good name of models. |
Ooh you are such the gentleman when you talk that way! Such a respect for women, according to you the women who work in work in porn are sluts, and not victims. Personally, I think the women and men who work in porn films are rather pathetic.
You were speaking of women who work in advertisements. Women who are work in advertisements are models not porn stars.
| Quote: | | Anyway, did you notice that you have once again played the sucker role? That you defended the agenda of men – pornography – at the expense of your own fellow womenfolk? You have been used and you don’t even realise it! You call this liberation of women? |
When did I ever voice my opinion, yeah or nay about pornography? How do you define pornography? Is a painting of a nude woman by Raphael or Goya pornography? How about a painting of a nude man? How about statues?
| Quote: | | I really don’t understand the perverse rhetoric these western women use against Arab women. Does it affect you how Arab women live? Are you trying to say you are fighting for them? What if they told you they like it that way? Will you back off? Or will you say that no matter what, even if they say they like it, you don’t like it, and therefore they must do what you want them to do. Now I really don’t understand this. Isn’t this what you are really trying to impose? |
The problem I have with Muslims concerning those Muslims residing in the West who still retain all those sexist attitudes that you have demonstrated. But it does seem that a lot women in Muslim countries aren't too happy with how Islam treats them. This is especially the case in Iran. I remember reading an article a few years back where Iranian women were furious that the Iranian government allowed the wives and sweethearts of the visiting Irish football to sit and watch the game in the stands, where as the wives and sweethearts of the Iranian team, had to watch the game on a remote feed.
| Quote: | | So can you now see Muslims in Arab lands question your legitimacy, when you try to ask their women to uncover themselves? Or you prefer to remain a bigot, believing that you are the superior race, with the superior culture. Oh yes, this is a hate site. It propagates that you are superior. THAT IS A FACT YOU CANNOT DENY!!!!! |
There you go bringing race into it. There is no Muslim race darling. Just as there is no Christian race. And Western culture is nothing more than an amalgam of different cultures both European and non-European that have influenced it through out the ages-it is a highly dynamic culture. As I said one my biggest beefs is with Muslim women in the West who insist on covering themselves completely, even when being photographed for their drivers' license! Honestly the thought of one so visually impaired and wearing such cumbersome clothes, getting behind the wheel of a car is frightening!
| Quote: | | About your chance to sue the wrong doers. C’mon, you are only reaffirming what I have said about your democracy in the Aisha thread. That means democracy is for those with money and influence. Those who cannot afford to sue, either due to lack of finance, or lack of clout to influence the judiciary, will lose. Those with money and power will win. Who is right or wrong is secondary. Who is most influential is primary. Is that democracy? |
Oh boy you haven't seen many American TV ads have you now! Lawyers repeatedly offer their services with the lines,
"Are you the victim of negligence, harassment or discrimination? You have nothing to lose! You only pay a small fee if we win the case for you! You pay nothing if we do not win the case for you! Call now! We are on your side!" So much for needing money or power to sue people.
Last edited by cardinalfedra on Wed Apr 30, 2003 5:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Abu Lahab
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 67
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hello all,
I think this arguments is going beyond the point. It seems Abdullahnoor is saying that, If America is a sexist country, then Their Veiws MUST be wrong, and then Islams veiws MUST be right. Abdullahnoor, I agree with you SOOOO much that America IS VERY sexist. For every Dollar that a man earns, a women makes only 76cents....in the same exact job...I think it's austrailia that's one of the few countrires in the world, were it's almost equal. America is also VERY racist, IF you are not White, Male, Heterosexual, Rich, Christian, and Non-handicapped then you will find life in America a challenge. The farther you stray from the "norm" the harder your llife will be.
If you are a handicapped, lesbian, black, non-christian, poor lady, you will have the most difficult time.
If you are looking for an answer from us "muslim haters" about America being the land of the Free, I'm sorry, This world is not free, nor is it perfect. And yes, you will hear that it America is free and perfect, and that is the point. TO fool people to think that it is free,(to create and illusion) so when minorities come to america, America will use their labor to help support the White, Christian, Male, etc....
Since this is about women's right, i'll cut the racist stuff out.
This whole World is Sexist, and has always has been. But America is different....I'll say why.
You can't deny that women in ISlamic societies are PERFECT. Other's have already covered why islamic societies arn't perfect....One sad story....A friend of mine, a muslim girl wearing hijab, said when she was a child, she was a fish! She loves to swim, and was always swimming...When puberty hit, she quit, and hasn't swam again.....She said, its ok, She'll give it up to ALLah. On the other Hand, ALL my muslim friends, who are MALE, are still out publicly swiming in swiminng pools. NO WOMEN ALLOWED. She said, she wishes to go to a bigger city, where the muslim women are organized to rent a public swiming pool, w/o windows or male life gaurds. She told me this wish/dream back in high school. That was 6years ago. My sister is a hijab wearing muslim girl who also gave up swiming. It's their SIMPLE dream to go and swim.....It still hasn't happened....That's so sad, they're denied the simple pleasure of swiming JUST BECAUSE THEY DON"T HAVE A PENIS!!!!
What's SO bad that they can't do this? As a man, We can say, "Well...", and scratch our head, and then forget it. That's apart of our privilege of being a man. BUT WOMEN DON"T FORGET IT!!! They can't swim! But at the same time, ALL men of all ages, all over islamic countries, are half naked in public(excuse me, They maybe following the rules of covering their 'wra' (navel to the knees), but let's be honest, it's not strictly enforced on men), enjoying life,the weather, at the same time women are wrapped up in their clothes sitting in their houses, waiting for their guide(who's out swiming) to take her to the market....Is it no wonder that places like Eygpt, that some women don't wear hijab, and go swimming.....Then they are labeled as Whores....Damned if you do, Damned if you don't....perfect example of a double bind...
With the government system that we have in America, We can help educate people to CHANGE the way things are to make it better. Not perfect, but better. IS america perfect? Nope, but it's getting closer and closer, very slow....but there is progress.....Example, American Women in the last (50yrs?) got the right to vote. It used to be illegal for american women to show the skin on their elbows....But men could. Women argued, and in time, got rights they feel they deserve.
I am not a women, and I will never know how it feels to be one....but I can do something....I can speak to them, and find out what it is that makes them feel equal. Women felt, if men can vote, so can we...They argued for YEARS....but CHANGE happened in America...and those kind of changes are still happening. I know Muhammed gave women this right 1400 years ago, but he didn't give them EVERY right. Women are different all over the world. Women changed over time...(I could have used the word 'Humans' have changed over time, But in our sexist world, Women aren't considered Humans, just as The "other"). Women today deserve rights, as simple as Swiming, or showing their hair....etc...
Islamic Sharia WILL NOT CHANGE the issue of Hijab! It's stuck for eternity. And YOUR own women...are supporting it....Just as OUR women are supporting the Sexism here with your Walmart, Porno, etc examples. My own mother told me if she was approached by a man with a knife and he would kill my mother, but if she took off her hijab off, he'd spare her life, she would rather DIE!!!!! She supports this? I understand though, she feels she is pleasing her Allah, and by doing this, she will live her life horribly to please him, even if it means, that all of the men in our family wears what we want, and do what we want. She will get her paradise, and all will be good...What if their isn't a paradise...Then her only chance in a just and equal life is over....but the men had fun, while women didn't. you can argue, NO wait, the women had their gossip, and their tea parties, and and and.....their quran classes....their supervised Picnics....and used the telephones too much...They had fun....Be honest!
Back in the day, when i was a muslim, A Kaffir lady asked me a question, she said, as a growing up teenager, she had one simple pleasure she loved so much. She would after school, take her bike, and ride down the hill behind her house as fast as she could, to feel the wind blow back her long hair. She then asked me, What part of this Will make God upset?
 Don't tell me a man will be 'turned on' by this bike ride, and will kidnap her and rape her, so she should have worn her hijab and stayed at home. If men are this way, maybe men should be locked up at home, WHY SHOULD WOMEN BE STUCK AT HOME BECAUSE US MEN ARE SEXUALLY HUNGERY, AND WE:LL RAPE THEM!!!! I'm not saying men should be locked up either, just let the women have the same right!
You asked about the women feminist who said pornography is women empowering...I agree...I don't think it's funny either. If men enjoy sex, and get paid for it, and a women enjoys sex too, and wants to get paid for it, then She has the option. When I'm talking about sex, I don't mean, sex and violence with Men raping women, beating them, putting handcups on them, and insulting them. But I'm talking about pornographic films where a women has sex in a way in which she enjoys, as she wills with whom she chooses and enjoys.
Women enjoy sex too. If I'm out of line by saying this, women please correct me. But I must mention, this issue(of femminist porno) is not fully supported by all feminists. Some are very strongly against it, while others argue the free choice. It is still debated. But the fact that it is debated, is the freedom.
Now after reading what I've said, you can further bash my logic, but IN AMERICA, YOU HAVE THE OPTION!!!!!!!!!!
THIS IS WHAT WE"RE TRYING TO SAY BY FREEDOM!!!
IF you want to be locked up in your house, with hijab and niqab, THEN YOU CAN!!!!!!!! BUT if you want to wear just hijab, you can, or if you want to wear a full sleaved shirt, with a really baggy dress, w/o hijab you can!!! If you want to wear a string bikini YOU CAN!!!!
In saudi you don't have the choice.....I dont' know if you live in america, AbdulahNoor, but you write as if All women walk around with thong bikini's and nipple clips. I'm in america RIGHT NOW, at a computer lab, and they're are alot of women here. No women is wearing bikini's or whatever. Their wearing t-shirts, jackets, jeans, shorts,....just as the men are....(it's about 78F).
IF it were 110F, then the men would be wearing Tanktops(maybe toppless) and shorts, just like the women would be wearing. If it was 110 in saudi, you tell me what the men would be wearing and what the women would be wearing...IN PUBLIC!
The freedom is in the option. Not in all aspects of american life. If a women in saudi, felt, just for one day, to go on a bike ride for 5min, w/o hijab, what will happen to her? In america, women can live their lives in hijab forever, or not. The choice is not in the government(or sharia, or religion), but in the women herself,
hope this cleared some things up!
ABU LAHAB
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Kaffirs: Mount up! |
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 1:41 am Post subject: |
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Medi Terraneus
There is a difference between the links I gave and you gave. I gave links from reports. You gave links from individuals who post from forums. The world does not revolve around any individual. It revolves around societies. If you quote an individual, so can everyone else. But when you quote sources from reports that represent a whole society, it is a whole different matter altogether.
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The sad thing is that muslim women have still a long way to go to achieve a certain degree of freedom. What kind of freedom is for a muslim woman having to 'shelter' behind and under her husband?
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You see, the problem with you folks is that you use your standard to judge others. You want to have “freedom” – but “your type” of freedom. So as long as another culture has a different type of freedom, you perceive that they are not happy.
Not only that. You base your judgement on a few exiled dissidents of Muslim countries, like Ali Sina, Anahita and so forth. They have an axe to grind. Dissident exiles are the WORST people to judge what Muslim women truly feel.
Notice that because of the false judgement, Westerners particularly Americans, always judge Muslims the wrong way. Look at Iraq. They expect the people to work towards a govt that is pro-America. What happened? They show they prefer a govt closer to that of Iran’s!
So if you feel that uncovering yourself is what you want, that is fine. But that is definitely not what most Muslim women in Muslim nations want. So thank you very much for your concern about our women. But then again, no thank you.
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God could have never reached the general public without the help of the devil.
(Jean Cocteau)
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If you don’t believe in God because there ain’t no proof He exists, doesn’t it make you look stupid if you believe in the devil?
nina
The ironic point about your first reply to me is that, while you justify the continued oppression against women in the west, you condemn Islam outright for inequality in Muslim nations!
But stranger still is that while you recognise that Islam got it right, banning porn, and Muslims got it wrong, engaging porn, in spite of Islam banning it – you actually support the west – even when western system promotes porn!
Now look carefully what you wrote
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This is one of those things we are fighting against. I can give you other examples, like men in construction business who treat there business companions to visits to all kinds of brothels, and pass the costs on to the consumers - that's me.
Very nice. That's one of the consequences of the systematical oppression of women, that goes on for ages now.
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Good. You used YOUR example in real life, which is a western system, where there is systematic oppression of women.
But lo and behold! Instead of admitting that YOUR SYSTEM is the problem, you immediately transferred the blame to Islam! Now how the heck did that happen?
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And islam is one of those systematical oppressors, along with the other religions that came forth from the same root. There is no way that islam is free from this contempt and exploitation.
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So your system, not only allows the oppression women, it has become a culture to do it. And you immediately pass the buck to Islam?
But wait. In your following note, you actually acknowledge that Islam as a system prevents it. However, it is the Muslims themselves that are wrong.
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For example, islam forbids prostitution. This means that prostitutes receive lashes, are stoned, or their throats are cut. Nevertheless, it exists in islamic countries. Since the men are the makers and keepers of law, they don't suffer as much from the prohibition as women do.
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So is Islam at fault? Or the people? Muslims in this site has always say, Islam good, Muslims bad. You just confirmed it, didn’t you?
The Western system on the other hand, not only allows prostitution, it has become a culture among you!
So which system actually has been designed to oppress women? Islam or the western system?
But then again, you have closed your mind. You have made up that no matter what, Islam is baaaaad. Reeeeaaal baaaaadd. Look at your next statement, even after admitting that your system oppresses women, while Islam bans such oppression…..
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Many male muslims are active in the world that exploits women. Why? Not because islam forbids prostitution, but because islam teaches contempt for women and for female sexuality. Islam does not protect these exploited women, but criminalizes them heavily, and punishes them cruelly.
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So while the facts lay before your very eyes, you are still blinded for your hatred for Islam. Even while you know that Islam forbids prostitution and your system encourages it, you still condemn Islam, and uphold your system!
Am I justified in calling residents of this Ali Sina hater site, “Muslim-haters”?
Oh yes, just because you did not face sexual harassment does not mean that other women did not.
cardinalfedra
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Ooh you are such the gentleman when you talk that way! Such a respect for women, according to you the women who work in work in porn are sluts, and not victims.
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Nope, you twisted. According to me, women who work in porn are sluts and victims. But according to you, these sluts are not victims, because they are paid and they did it out of their own free will!
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Personally, I think the women and men who work in porn films are rather pathetic.
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“Slut” is the word used by men in your country to describe such women. If you can tell me an equivalent word that is used to describe the men who engage in porn, I’ll use it too. So what is that word?
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You were speaking of women who work in advertisements. Women who are work in advertisements are models not porn stars.
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I was speaking of BOTH who work as models and porn stars. Yes, models are at least respected. Porn stars?
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When did I ever voice my opinion, yeah or nay about pornography?
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Ah! But that is my whole point! So while your men demean women to nothing more than walking tits and pussies, you remain silent! Have you not been cowed into submission?
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How do you define pornography? Is a painting of a nude woman by Raphael or Goya pornography? How about a painting of a nude man? How about statues?
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What???? Notice that you once again have implicitly defended the demeaning of your womenfolk? Do you really seriously think that the nude statue of David is equivalent to a sexy young thing opening her legs to full glory, showing everyone her pussy lips?
Look at yourself lady! You have once again unwittingly (admittedly implicitly) defended porn for the enjoyment of men, and at the expense of your own womenfolk!
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The problem I have with Muslims concerning those Muslims residing in the West who still retain all those sexist attitudes that you have demonstrated. But it does seem that a lot women in Muslim countries aren't too happy with how Islam treats them. This is especially the case in Iran. I remember reading an article a few years back where Iranian women were furious that the Iranian government allowed the wives and sweethearts of the visiting Irish football to sit and watch the game in the stands, where as the wives and sweethearts of the Iranian team, had to watch the game on a remote feed.
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The above is a typical American problem. They listen to a few dissidents and then decide that their culture is superior. They say that because of these few dissidents, they now have the right to invade.
So this typical arrogant American culture seeps into Muslim-haters like you. Because of a few dissidents, you feel you have the right to tell women of other lands how they should behave. But is your judgment right? Or have you arrogantly assumed you are right?
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As I said one my biggest beefs is with Muslim women in the West who insist on covering themselves completely, even when being photographed for their drivers' license! Honestly the thought of one so visually impaired and wearing such cumbersome clothes, getting behind the wheel of a car is frightening!
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So because you are uncomfortable it gives you the right to even extend your cause into other people’s lands? That you now feel you have the right to tell Iraqi, Iranian, Sudanese etc women how they should dress?
Yes, I understand that the veil is a security issue. Then let us address that. Why the heck must you bring in this “Islam oppresses women stuff” just because you are uncomfortable?
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Oh boy you haven't seen many American TV ads have you now! Lawyers repeatedly offer their services with the lines,
"Are you the victim of negligence, harassment or discrimination? You have nothing to lose! You only pay a small fee if we win the case for you! You pay nothing if we do not win the case for you! Call now! We are on your side!" So much for needing money or power to sue people.
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You are truly a sucker and a fool. These lawyers are advertising for themselves. No win no pay, you say? That is the least of their concern. Their concern is that they got their names advertised. Didn’t you read the links how difficult it is to win cases?
Now why do you discard these statistics from official reports, and instead you proceed to believe some backdoor salesman who are only interested in advertising their goodies?
Abu Lahab
Ah, a newcomer to my thread! I see that your nick “Abu Lahab” is very appropriate. Your post is filled with hatred, vile, anger and contempt in every sentence.
Listen, oh Father of Flame, condemning others does not make your system look right. It only makes what I have said about American system stinks, look true!
Now begone and get your wife to bring more fiery wood to place them under you!
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Kaffirs: Mount up!
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They have been saying that the last 1400 years.
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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Abu Lahab
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 67
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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As long as I got the time, I'll still tag along! I got a quiz in 2hrs though, so This'll be short.
You mentionned I was full of hate and anger? Hmm..I didn't seem to catch that? Maybe you felt that, while you were reading my post, it got you so mad, that you felt my post was full of hate? Anyways, that doesn't matter,
You wrote:So if you feel that uncovering yourself is what you want, that is fine. But that is definitely not what most Muslim women in Muslim nations want. So thank you very much for your concern about our women. But then again, no thank you.
How do you know what Mulsim women want? What if the quran never had the whole hijab rule, how many middle eastern women would be wearing the veil on their own? What if a fatwa was released saying it was ok to take it off, How many women would wear it? You know the answer! Now think, what does that mean? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN????? In the summer my mother would wear her hijab, and say, Har, Har, (I'ts hot, It's hot). You know, it wasn't really that hot, but wearing a hijab did make it burning for her.
I don't want to get side tracked. My argument, here, is not about Islam being true or not, but to say that women have more RIghts, choices, and freedom in america, than in any muslim ruling country, becase Islam is a male dominated religion, were the man benifit from privleges over women. I am not asking yoiu to give up Islam, I asking you to acknowledge, that under Islam, WOmen are oppressed in some certain issues.
Now if you feel women are inferior, they have a weaker intelect, and should be controled by superior men, that can be another discussion. But rules, like, If a man is horny, and wants sex from his wife, SHE MUST BY RELIGION GIVE IT TO HIM, or the angels will curse her the whole night! Poor women! If they were upset, or were just simply NOT IN THE MOOD they are flooded with guilt, Not doing their duty as a muslimah or a wife. Is their a Rule for the opposite? Uh oh! DO I smell inequality! Now if a women is horny, and asks her husband to "go to the room" and the man is upset, or simply NOT IN THE MOOD! Then their is no guilt on him...
Gotta study....runing out of time...
Kaffirs: mount up!
That's just a joke off of Waren G's "Regulators: mount up!"
I know the kaffirs have been mounting up for all these years....Our numbers are increasing....and it kinda looks like we're ruling the world! And the Idea of Islam spreading over the whole world?????? Lets be honest, No one type of thought will ever cover the whole world w/o some diversity, because Thought, and spirituality, is influenced by many factors and is very idiosyncratic. By this human nature, One way "islam" can never spread around the world, just as you can never spread the "workaholic" personality around the world....It can't happen, there will always be people who are laid back. And they're will always be people who will question things, like religion, instead of taking it for the "Word of God" and never thinking otherwise.
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Kaffirs: Mount up! |
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Abu Lahab
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 67
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Quick note!! AH no time!
But you were asking for another name for someone who works in the porn industry?
How about Porn Actress, Or Porn star?
WHy must you find another Demeaning insulting name for women who work in the porn industry? Slut, Whore, Prositute, all demeaning...
How about Men who work in the Porn industry? Gigalo? Pimp? "the Man" Notice these are not insults, but acutally they are used in our society as COMPLEMENTS amoung the youth!! This is what I mean by male dominated society, and that this opression operates on the edge of awareness.....Now we are telling women they are bad for doing the porn, and they are doing it for men... IF we are going to yell at the women, Why not the men? They are equally responsible.....No porno would sell in our country w/o women. (gay porn would, but we're talking about women here).
You keep telling us not to judge your country by our standards....DO this yourself....In america, Women are allowed to do pornos if they wish JUST as if men are, IF they wish. IF you want us to stop judgeing your country, stop judgeing ours...
But I think I have a moral obligation, to Judge other countries, And allow other countries to judge us. WHY you ask? SIMPLE, if there is something morally wrong, or a group of people oppressed, SOMETIMES, living in that system, you do not notice it going on...its considered normal....and it doesn't change. People from other countries can see the harm, and can give their opinion. ANd at the same time, we must consider the opinion of the other.
Let me give you an example....In anceint Japanese history....A Samurai, used to walk around their villages, and keep gaurd. It is his duty to do such. He must be very skilled with his sword, and be loyal to his village, even do his death....keep in mind this is another culture....Can we say anything to them?
Testing one's sword....
Now if, a samurai's sword has become old, and frail, it is the duty of a samurai to get a new sword. But he must get a perfect sword, worthy of this job. When given a new sword, he must test it, to see if it is sharp enough. So, what these samurai used to do was, they would walk through their villages, with their new sword, hidden in their garnments...No one knew that he had a new sword or not. Once he found someone, not from his village, the smurai would approach him, and strike him with all his might, right at the side of his neck, cutting the stranger in two, out from the opposite side, under his arm, in a downward motion until the sword came out of the strangers body. IF the sword got stuck some where in the middle, the samurai left the sword, it was not worthy. But if the stranger was seperated head, neck, arm from the rest of the body, cut the stanger into TWO pieces, then the sword was worthy.
What's the point of this piece of history? The point is the japanese did not view this as wrong! He must be sure his sword is worthy, if not, how can he defend the vilige? Now, can I say, Gosh that's so wrong? YES I CAN!!!!! The same can be said about female genital mutilation/circumcision! Even if the women themselves will defend the removal of the clitoris of their own daughters, I CAN say that is SOOOO wrong! But I must listen to their complaints about MY society too.
Now I know that comparing these things are small to the hijab, but they are still something to compare to, and I can say that it is wrong. Just as I can say in american society, the huge emphasis on women to be sexy, and any other way is ugly is wrong too.
I feel women in Muslim countries are oppressed, That is my opinion, and I hear your opinion, about the oppresion of women IN AMERICA, and I acknowlege it. Now, we can both do our parts in trying to make it better for women, by doing something about it...In america we can change, and we are trying. In a muslim country....it is harder for this to happen if not impossible...
Dammit, would you look at the time...Crap! gotta study!
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Kaffirs: Mount up! |
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hinduwoman
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 1092
Location: India
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Sure, women are paid less, but at least they are paid. In Islamic states they don't even get the option!
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May facts and logic always win over 'feel-good' factor. |
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cardinalfedra
Joined: 22 Aug 2002
Posts: 584
Location: Isle of Lucy
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Ah! But that is my whole point! So while your men demean women to nothing more than walking tits and pussies, you remain silent! Have you not been cowed into submission? |
Honey, you were the one that implied that women who wear short skirts get raped. And as I said before, you are by far the most sexist clod I have ever encountered. It must be all that porn you watch!
| Quote: | | Nope, you twisted. According to me, women who work in porn are sluts and victims. But according to you, these sluts are not victims, because they are paid and they did it out of their own free will! |
I don't consider women who work in porn to be sluts. I consider them pathetic. But I do not consider them to be victims. How can one be a victim if one is paid and one chooses that sort of life on their own free will. Ooh I forgot free will is something that Islam does not allow.
| Quote: | | I was speaking of BOTH who work as models and porn stars. Yes, models are at least respected. Porn stars? |
Oh so now you lump porn stars with models who model bras and knickers for department stores!
| Quote: | What???? Notice that you once again have implicitly defended the demeaning of your womenfolk? Do you really seriously think that the nude statue of David is equivalent to a sexy young thing opening her legs to full glory, showing everyone her pussy lips?
Look at yourself lady! You have once again unwittingly (admittedly implicitly) defended porn for the enjoyment of men, and at the expense of your own womenfolk! |
Gee well if you do think that a model modelling bras is just one notch above a porn star, you probably would think that a naked or painting of a woman is porn. Are you sure you are not Mullah Ashcroft? You seem to know more about porn than I know. You see, in America, there is a simple thing called not buying stuff that one has no interest in. Again how is it I have been around men all my life (great guys all of them, even the ones that looked at Playboy) and yet I have never encountered such a sexist, uncouth clod as you. So much for the demeaning of women!
| Quote: | The above is a typical American problem. They listen to a few dissidents and then decide that their culture is superior. They say that because of these few dissidents, they now have the right to invade.
So this typical arrogant American culture seeps into Muslim-haters like you. Because of a few dissidents, you feel you have the right to tell women of other lands how they should behave. But is your judgment right? Or have you arrogantly assumed you are right? |
A few dissidents? Ha! You haven't been following what has been going on in Iran of late. Are you perchance the former Iraq minister of propaganda? The people of Iran themselves are tired of the rule of the mullahs.
| Quote: | So because you are uncomfortable it gives you the right to even extend your cause into other people’s lands? That you now feel you have the right to tell Iraqi, Iranian, Sudanese etc women how they should dress?
Yes, I understand that the veil is a security issue. Then let us address that. Why the heck must you bring in this “Islam oppresses women stuff” just because you are uncomfortable? |
Do you drive a car? How well how far down the road, not to mention side to side, could you see if you were wearing a veil? What do you think your reaction time on the pedals would be if you had to wear bulky long sleeves with a long dress? What frightens me is getting into a car accident with one of these Angels of Death! But yet they insist that they should be allowed to drive dressed like that and I've seen them out on the road, it is frightening! And then there is the attitude of veiling the face in public. These women don't seem to understand that in our culture, people who disguise their faces are automatically looked upon with suspicion--images of Klansmen, bandits, and utter assorted bad folk come to mind. In fact, there are still some laws on the books in certain states, banning the wearing of outfits that disguise the face. These laws were passed long ago in an effort to stop Klansmen and robbers.
| Quote: | You are truly a sucker and a fool. These lawyers are advertising for themselves. No win no pay, you say? That is the least of their concern. Their concern is that they got their names advertised. Didn’t you read the links how difficult it is to win cases?
Now why do you discard these statistics from official reports, and instead you proceed to believe some backdoor salesman who are only interested in advertising their goodies? |
Again, about your statistics. You know its very expensive to advertise on television. How come these same firms can continually advertise if they ain't winning any cases? Remember they only get a small percentage if they win the case for their client. They must be winning several, else they would have gone out a business a long time ago. And the list of firms that advertise grows day by day. Hmmm, I wonder why. |
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Abu Lahab
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You wrote:So if you feel that uncovering yourself is what you want, that is fine. But that is definitely not what most Muslim women in Muslim nations want. So thank you very much for your concern about our women. But then again, no thank you.
How do you know what Mulsim women want?
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You ask me that? Have you forgotten that I am a Muslim? I have mixed with Muslims from both majority and minority backgrounds. I have seen how minority Muslims fight tooth and nail with authorities of the land, just for them to cover themselves up.
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What if the quran never had the whole hijab rule, how many middle eastern women would be wearing the veil on their own? What if a fatwa was released saying it was ok to take it off, How many women would wear it? You know the answer! Now think, what does that mean? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?????
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I know the answer and you know the answer. I know what that means. DO YOU? I am glad you brought this point up. Because it will now truly show how Muslim women love Islam.
If Islam allows women to uncover their heads, the women would of course display their crowing glory. Hair is one of the assets a women would like to show off! But the fact they cover up shows that they are willing to sacrifice their desires for Islam!
Think about that, Muslim-hater! No, you can’t think. Muslim-haters can never think. They always think these women comply because they are fearful of men or society. They never see that these women want to please Allah, even if it means having to sacrifice themselves.
You cannot see that women love Islam. You cannot accept that fact. You cannot accept that women see Islam, rather than western society, as being kinder to women. No, you have a closed mind. You cannot see that is why more western women convert to Islam than western men.
Western women need favours and benefits for them to support western culture. No benefits, no America. Muslim women on other hand, are willing to sacrifice for Islam. This is something Muslim-haters never see. This is the reason why after 1400 years Muslims still support Islam. But no, you only think that Muslims are being oppressed.
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In the summer my mother would wear her hijab, and say, Har, Har, (I'ts hot, It's hot). You know, it wasn't really that hot, but wearing a hijab did make it burning for her.
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I think that is a very weak argument. I used to live in a very hot and humid country. But office workers are still required to wear jackets, suits, coats and ties during their cause of work. Hot, humid, stupid, hot, humid, stupid……
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My argument, here, is not about Islam being true or not, but to say that women have more RIghts, choices, and freedom in america, than in any muslim ruling country, becase Islam is a male dominated religion, were the man benifit from privleges over women.
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Again, you are using your standards to judge another practise. What may be acceptable to you, may not be acceptable in another culture. What is practised in another culture, may not be acceptable to you.
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I am not asking yoiu to give up Islam, I asking you to acknowledge, that under Islam, WOmen are oppressed in some certain issues.
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If you take that stand, we can co-exist. But no, you cannot take that stand. You are a Muslim-hater and a bigot. You must have your stand – including the eradication of other people’s stand.
Read the mission statement of this site. Reflect on it. Supporters of this site therefore are asking for the eradication of a teaching, a practise and an ideology. That is nothing short of hate, contempt and bigotry. And you support it.
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I know the kaffirs have been mounting up for all these years....Our numbers are increasing....and it kinda looks like we're ruling the world!
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Your numbers increase because the world population is increasing.
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And the Idea of Islam spreading over the whole world?????? Lets be honest, No one type of thought will ever cover the whole world w/o some diversity, because Thought, and spirituality, is influenced by many factors and is very idiosyncratic. By this human nature, One way "islam" can never spread around the world, just as you can never spread the "workaholic" personality around the world.
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There you go again! Stereotyping Islam. Muslim-haters here always get the wrong impression that Muslims around the world are homogenous. But let me assure you that Islam is more diversified than you think. Try to compare the different cultures of these Muslim lands. The Balkans, Middle East, India, Pakistan Malaysia and Xinjiang. What is so common in their culture that you can identify, other than they are Muslims?
Read this post I made to stress the different cultures of Islam.
http://forum.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=58246&highlight=#58246
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But you were asking for another name for someone who works in the porn industry?
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You misread what I asked from cardinalfedra. I asked her to give me a name to describe a “male” porn star.
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How about Porn Actress, Or Porn star?
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Those are female terms. Having problems with giving male stars names that specifically address them and not the female gender? “Slut” is definitely female.
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WHy must you find another Demeaning insulting name for women who work in the porn industry? Slut, Whore, Prositute, all demeaning... How about Men who work in the Porn industry?
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Ah… that is my whole point! While I can find a word to describe a female porn star as “slut”, which is so commonly used by westerners too, you and Cardinalfedra have a very difficult time finding an equivalent word for male porn stars!
See the discrimination against women your society is imposing? You have a word to describe such women, but not the men? You pointed out the above fairly well, without my help huh? An involuntary admission that you system discriminates women?
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Gigalo? Pimp? "the Man" Notice these are not insults, but acutally they are used in our society as COMPLEMENTS amoung the youth!! This is what I mean by male dominated society, and that this opression operates on the edge of awareness.....
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EXACTLY! EXACTLY! EXACTLY! You cannot find an equivalent word for males working in porn industry, while you have a suitable word “slut” for the females!
While “slut”, “whore” and “bitch” have very demeaning terms for females, you have said, in your own words, gigolo and pimp are “compliments” to the male youth. Even the word “jerk” does not come anywhere near “slut”!
So does this not show that while both men and women do act out in porn, it is the women that get the demeaning labels, while the men get off unscathed?
Is not the above yet another of western discrimination against women?
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Now we are telling women they are bad for doing the porn, and they are doing it for men... IF we are going to yell at the women, Why not the men? They are equally responsible.....No porno would sell in our country w/o women. (gay porn would, but we're talking about women here).
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Oh Misled One, you are so blind that even when you gave the answer, you did not know that you gave the answer! Like Abu Lahab who believed that he was right to the end, you still believe you are right to the end – even after you have given the answer yourself!
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You have said it yourself. No porno would sell without women. Agreed! Now would porn sell without men? It would still sell like hotcakes wouldn’t it????????
There lies your answer, oh Misled One! So porn can survive without men. But it cannot survive without women. That is why the porn industry fellas fool you people (especially women), to believe that porn is liberating. That is why they even lobbied for feminists to support porn! What could be better than that? If feminists say it is OK, who are the men to cry foul?
So there you have it. The men still push their agenda, degrading and humiliating women to nothing more than tits and pussy lips with a face. And the women foolishly support these men ridiculing the woman’s body!
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You keep telling us not to judge your country by our standards....DO this yourself....In america, Women are allowed to do pornos if they wish JUST as if men are, IF they wish. IF you want us to stop judgeing your country, stop judgeing ours...
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Yes, I would – when you do! I am only using this to show the problem with you Muslim-haters. That is, you keep using YOUR standards to judge others.
But then, are you going to stop? I don’t think so. Look at your words below. So if you don’t stop, you expect others to?
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But I think I have a moral obligation, to Judge other countries, And allow other countries to judge us. WHY you ask? SIMPLE, if there is something morally wrong, or a group of people oppressed, SOMETIMES, living in that system, you do not notice it going on...its considered normal....and it doesn't change. People from other countries can see the harm, and can give their opinion. ANd at the same time, we must consider the opinion of the other.
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And who are you to say that the veiling of women is oppressive? I say the showing of pussy lips is! You say the hijab is oppressive to women? I say porn is oppressive to women. Now why should Islamic practices be put under scrutiny, but western culture be free from the same?
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I feel women in Muslim countries are oppressed, That is my opinion, and I hear your opinion, about the oppresion of women IN AMERICA, and I acknowlege it. Now, we can both do our parts in trying to make it better for women, by doing something about it...
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Good. Then you take care of your women, YOUR WAY. And we Muslims take care of our women OUR WAY. Our women don’t complain wearing the hijab just as your women don’t mind exposing themselves. So who am I to say that your women should cover up, just as who are you to ask our women to uncover?
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In america we can change, and we are trying. In a muslim country....it is harder for this to happen if not impossible...
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You are dead wrong. That is what you think. You are changing for the worse. Your economy is down, your credibility is down, the world mistrusts you and so on.
On the other hand, every Muslim land that liberates itself from tyranny is asking for Islamic rule – including the Iraqis, which Donald Duck Rumsfeld is trying very hard to subdue.
Hinduwoman
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May facts and logic always win over 'feel-good' factor.
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The facts show that more than half of women in America face sexual harassment at one point of their worklife. The feel good factor is that the American woman is a liberated woman.
The facts show that there is a high number of conversions, especially women to Islam. The feel good factor is that more and more apostates are speaking out. That doesn’t mean that more are apostatising. It could simply mean more are willing to talk.
Yes, may the facts and logic win over the “feel-good” factor.
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Cardinalfedra
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I don't consider women who work in porn to be sluts. I consider them pathetic. But I do not consider them to be victims. How can one be a victim if one is paid and one chooses that sort of life on their own free will. Ooh I forgot free will is something that Islam does not allow.
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But, but…I don’t understand you. If they are not victims, and they do it out of their free will, why then pathetic? Are your words not betraying a sense of frustration in you, that somehow, as a woman, it pisses you off that men get to ogle all kinds of tits and pussy lips, while you….you….grrrr….you….”goddamnit!!! it ain’t fair! why don’t they have as much dick exposure as pussy exposure!!!!”…. I think you know what I mean……
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Oh so now you lump porn stars with models who model bras and knickers for department stores!
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I didn’t. You did. I separated models as professionals and porn stars as sluts. You on the other hand, have yet to make distinction. No doubt. To some extent these models too are being exploited. Like wearing skimpy bikinis to advertise a race car. But at least she has her most prized assets kept away from prying eyes. That is certainly more dignified than exposing your you-know-what to an almost all male audience.
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Gee well if you do think that a model modelling bras is just one notch above a porn star, you probably would think that a naked or painting of a woman is porn. Are you sure you are not Mullah Ashcroft? You seem to know more about porn than I know. You see, in America, there is a simple thing called not buying stuff that one has no interest in. Again how is it I have been around men all my life (great guys all of them, even the ones that looked at Playboy) and yet I have never encountered such a sexist, uncouth clod as you. So much for the demeaning of women!
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Your above note tells about one of the biggest irony of all. You see, porn has become so common, you are not able to differentiate between porn, art, culture and practice. Of course I know a lot about porn. Islam is against it! Well, since you have lost your judgement what porn is – due to the fact that it has now become part of your culture – let me help you out.
A piece of art, work, picture, image, movie (etc) is considered pornography, when the maker of such intends and designs that piece of work to titillate, excite, arouse sexual interest in the readers, audience, spectators etc.
Here are some examples of a bona fide advertisement, an advertisement that thinly disguises sexploitation with a product and true blue pornography.
1. So a young slim model wears a bra. What is the intention of the advertiser? To sell bras to young girls, ain’t it? Where is the intention to arouse men?
2. A bikini clad girl stands beside a heavy motorbike. What is the intention of the advertiser? He wants to sell the bike, no? What the heck is the girl there for then? To attract the male audience because, a big bike and a sexy girl are “possessions” of a macho man, ain’t it?
While #1 definitely has a legitimate reason to show the female flesh in your culture (but not in Islam though), what the heck are you sexploiting the female form in #2?
Now compare the real true blue porn below.
3. A young sexy thing opens her legs, exposing her very moist, pink pussy lips – what is the intention of the director who instructed her to do that? To sell you a tampon?
4. If a young woman, with luscious lips teases the erect male organ, close-up – and when he orgasms, she eagerly allows him to spill his stuff all over her face. She even swallows part of it. And she enjoys it! What is the intention of the director who instructed her to do that? To sell facial cream that can be consumed orally too?
I think we stop here. Lest Ali Sina’s hate site evolves into a porn site.
Just in case you wonder how the heck I am able to describe it in such graphic detail, lemme tell you that I too used to look for porn – BEFORE I CONVERTED TO ISLAM.
So are you telling me you cannot tell the difference between #1 and #4? Has your society degenerated so badly, that you have no judgement left in you? If there is no difference to you, why don’t you practise what you preach? Get your children to peddle porn. They’ll earn even more than you or your papist swine!
But what is terribly worrying about you now, is the fact you have been for the last few days, implicitly defending porn! Look at what Muslim-hatred has degenerated you into! You came here to slime Islam because you think hijab stinks. But you end up trying to say that porn ain’t bad – even when you know it suppresses your own kind!
This is the price you are paying for hatred for Islam and bigotry. You have sold your ability to judge what is right from wrong!
Hey, listen up sucker. I have about enough of this pretence of the west is best in protecting women. On one hand you say that the women don’t complain, so that is fine. What about prostitution? They don’t mind too. So you say they are not oppressed?
Well and good. Because many women in Muslim countries say they don’t mind being treated the way they are by their men. So just get your stinking yankee butts out of other people’s business!
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A few dissidents? Ha! You haven't been following what has been going on in Iran of late.
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You have been fed with too much yankee propaganda haven’t you? “The Iraqis want freedom, they will give us flowers, yes, yes, we expect flowers…..er, Donnie Rummie, howzat they are now protesting against us??”
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Do you drive a car? How well how far down the road, not to mention side to side, could you see if you were wearing a veil? What do you think your reaction time on the pedals would be if you had to wear bulky long sleeves with a long dress?..
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Excuses, excuses, excuses. If that is a security/safety problem, then let us address that. But to say because of that, you now have the right to tell the people of other lands how to dress, it is a very, very different thing altogether.
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Again, about your statistics. You know its very expensive to advertise on television. How come these same firms can continually advertise if they ain't winning any cases? Remember they only get a small percentage if they win the case for their client. They must be winning several, else they would have gone out a business a long time ago. And the list of firms that advertise grows day by day. Hmmm, I wonder why.
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See what I told you about having your minds controlled? So the official reports lie. And the fact that these lawyers are also advertising to bigger clients at the same time never occurred to you.
Oh yes, you being a Muslim-hater have a closed mind. I forgot that.
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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CroMagnon
Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 2112
Location: West Kafiristan
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2003 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| abdullahnoor wrote: |
Read the mission statement of this site. Reflect on it. Supporters of this site therefore are asking for the eradication of a teaching, a practise and an ideology. That is nothing short of hate, contempt and bigotry. And you support it.
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Yeah  , like the 1400 years old mission statement of Islam has nothing to do with hate, contempt and bigotry for anyone who has different beliefs than those of Mo's message .... like the mission statement of islam has nothing to do with the eradication of teachings, practises and ideologies of about 4.8 billion people, the vast majority of the world's population ....
Quran 002.065
And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!
Quran 008.055
For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him
Quran 009.028
O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.
Quran 009.029
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Quran 022.019
These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
Quran 022.020
With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
Quran 022.021
In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
Quran 022.022
Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"
Quran 040.035
Those who dispute concerning the communications of Allah without any authority that He has given them; greatly hated is it by Allah and by-those who believe.
Quran 048.013
And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!
Quran 048.029
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.
Quran 069.030
(The stern command will say): "Seize ye him, and bind ye him,
Quran 069.031
"And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire.
Quran 069.032
"Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits!
Quran 069.033
"This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High.
(... just a smal sample of quranic hate-speech ... there's much more, also in the hadiths... not to mention the endless rantings in friday-khutbas and the utter intolerance displayed on the countless islamic websites, especially against polytheists and atheists ... )
and, to keep a bit in line with YOUR favorite style of ranting:
This is nothing short of hate, contempt and bigotry!
And muslims support it!
You guys are nothing but a bunch of pagan-phobic, non-muslim HATERS!
But you are too blind to see it!
_________________
Sheikh Ahmad al Kat'ani:
"every hour 667 muslims are converting to christianity" |
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Medi Terraneus
Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 291
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2003 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Abdullahnoor:
Firstly, about what you say:
| Quote: | | There is a difference between the links I gave and you gave. I gave links from reports. You gave links from individuals who post from forums. The world does not revolve around any individual. It revolves around societies. If you quote an individual, so can everyone else. But when you quote sources from reports that represent a whole society, it is a whole different matter altogether |
I remind you that in my previous post to you I already told you this:
| Quote: | | For you it is really easy to find official links and information about our 'casuistic' cases. Instead, probably I would not find many official 'reports' on muslim 'casuistic'. I bet you don't hear much of it on your local TVs and newspaper, uh? |
But I did find this relevant information for you:
http://www.atimes.com/se-asia/AH25Ae02.html
| Quote: | Malaysia sends the wrong signals about rape
By R Mageswary
KUALA LUMPUR - They gang-raped a woman and then set her on fire, but after only five years in jail, five men are about to be free to walk the streets of Kuala Lumpur again. Just weeks ago, a 15-year-old ethnic Indian student was raped and murdered, prompting a bitter public outcry.
Malaysian society seems to be sending the wrong signals about rape, beginning with the laws that let off too easily those who commit such a crime to an attitude that it is all right for men to be aggressive while women must suffer in silence. Ivy Josiah of the Women's Aid Organization (WAO) put it succinctly: ''Rape is one issue this country has not dealt with properly.''
Women's groups say it is shocking enough that a predominantly Muslim nation like Malaysia is experiencing a rising number of rape cases. But they say it is all the more devastating to realize that authorities are doing little to prevent rapes and less to help the victims. |
And:
http://commposite.uqam.ca/videaz/wg3/0007.html
| Quote: | Violence Against Women: Dilemma for Indonesian Media.
Violence against women has become a daily crime. Rape has taken place every day, even every 6 hours, according to the Central Bureau of Statistics based on Police Head Quarter reports, between 1984-1989. Between 1980-1993, rape
increased by 15.67% a year. Rape was the number 2 crime after murder, or perhaps it might be the number one because there were so many reasons why rape in Indonesia was not reported to the police. Among other reasons, the victims were afraid of the rape actors because of the latter's threat.
They were ashamed if their names appeared in mass media. Besides the legal procedure was very complicated. While in the court proceedings, the judges frequently cornered the victims with their questions. These included such degrading questions, like whether you moved your lower body while being raped? Or such statements like: "You dressed yourselves provocatively, so that it was not surprising if you were raped. And why did you go out at night?".
Meanwhile rape scenes were broadcast extensively on TV. Rape was a strong manifestation of patriarchal values. It gave a dominant feeling in men.
According to Prof DR Sri Mulyani, a psychologist of Gajah Mada University, cases of rape have increased recently, because more and more women conducted activities in public domain, earned money by themselves and competed with their opposite sex. The increase in women's capability is parallel with the increase in risks and prevention.
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Also, what you say:
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So if you feel that uncovering yourself is what you want, that is fine. But that is definitely not what most Muslim women in Muslim nations want. So thank you very much for your concern about our women. But then again, no thank you. |
Do not trivialize this, please. It is not a question of covering or uncovering. It's a daily drama for many muslim women! And since muslim men dont seem to care a bit about it (why should they?!). I, as a woman, DO care.
And it is not muslim-hate; its repugnance towards this primitive creepy culture.
I will quote your new adquired prophet as the cherry on this cake:
| Quote: | | "I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were women....[because] they are ungrateful to their husbands and they are deficient in intelligence. " (The Prophet Muhammad) Sahih Bukhari V 2, B 24, N 541 |
Ergo Only grateful intelligent muslim women do not burn in hell-fire…
Alright then! It’s so easy…….. Man, let your women show they ARE intelligent and who knows... maybe they will even be grateful to you!
_________________
When somebody tells me that I am too old to do something, I rush to do it.
(Pablo Picasso) |
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Medi Terraneus
Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 291
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2003 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Btw, Abdullahnoor:
Despite your disgusting porn sexist jargon in all your posts  , which firstly I purposely put aside, I do want to remark something.
Do you conveniently forget that pornography and prostitution already existed long before women’s pursue of autonomy and equality? Prostitution was the first paid 'profession' women got in earth... ever wonder why? So both issues have nothing to do with women's search for freedom and equality.
Both pornography (that you knew so well before converting to islam) and prostitution are the result of male problems with their own sexual handicaps, diverse complex, sexual repression , etc. But I will leave it to you to ponder on those problems.
When men resolve those problems, porn & prostitution will be a decaying business. 
In the meantime, the rest of us women (the ones that are not in the porn and prostitution business) will keep on working to make a living AND encouraging womanhood to work and earn their living, too... so as they will be able to freely CHOOSE between:
a) Rely on their husbands good-will and be their geishas for life.
b) Be autonomous women who freely choose their role. Whatever role, but freely.
Oh, and about my signature:
| Quote: | God could have never reached the general public without the help of the devil.
(Jean Cocteau)
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And your comment on it:
| Quote: | | If you don’t believe in God because there ain’t no proof He exists, doesn’t it make you look stupid if you believe in the devil? |
I say: yes, very stupid... Only that I believe in god as much as in the devil..
This quotation is for those who believe in a god with human characteristics and thus believe of a devil with human characteristics..
Monotheistic religions make God and Devil feedback one another to keep the pot boiling.. It's crystal clear..!
_________________
When somebody tells me that I am too old to do something, I rush to do it.
(Pablo Picasso)
Last edited by Medi Terraneus on Fri May 02, 2003 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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