Faith Freedom International :: View topic - Muhammad propagated sex slavery? Look again!

Faith Freedom International

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

Muhammad propagated sex slavery? Look again!
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.

This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.

Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> Muhammad

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

baqar

Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 168

Posted: Mon May 19, 2003 1:15 am Post subject: Allegations

Allegations of immorality are based on fabricated hadithes.

abdullahnoor

Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990

Posted: Mon May 19, 2003 5:19 am Post subject:

Sherkhan

Are you not displaying your hate here? That you are a Muslim-hater?

You cannot even link the verse with your example. You see, Muslim-hater, I asked you to show proof or shut up. Did I ask you to believe anything at all? But being a Muslim-hater, you have to bring in non-issues to flood. What has the following got to do with what you have claimed earlier? …..

Quote:

Curios Muslim: Is it possible that Allah’s postman whispered in Mo’s ear and asked to kill kafirs? (Quran,4:89)
Islam: Out of context. SHUT UP and BELIEVE.

Curios Muslim: Is it true Mo killed 600-800 innocent Jews in Medina? ( Sirat Rasul Allah, ISBN 0196360331, page 464)
Islam: Out of context. SHUT UP and BELIEVE.

Curios Muslim: Is it true Mo was a sex maniac and he used to have sex with all of his wives in the same night? (Sahih Bukhari, Book of Nikaah)
Islam: Out of context. SHUT UP and BELIEVE.

Flooding with irrelevant points?

Are you not confirming that this is a hate-site? Did not in my very first post in this site mention the tactics used? Here was what I commented about this site, many months ago. http://forum.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?t=3221&start=0

Quote:

I have been around this forum on and off for about more than a year now. It looks like the same old stuff that has been going on, is still around today. Face it. This is an-anti Muslim site. The methods used are nothing but ridicule and harassment. No wonder not many Muslims come here to pay attention. If there are any Muslims who care about this place, they number a few. These are the methods this site employs.

1. Flooding the site with anti-Muslim material. It can be about terror, poverty, news about poverty or war in Muslim countries etc. It can also be twisted meanings of hadith and Quran.

2. Verbal harassment. Once a Muslim makes or defends a point, half a dozen forummers will post a few dozen replies, overwhelming the Muslim poster. The Muslim poster being unable to keep up with the load then leaves. These anti-Muslims then hail victory and chant the very familiar victorious cry that no Muslim can defend what is being propagated here.

3. Posting totally non-Islamic literature and link it to Islam. A bomb goes off in Middle East. Another one goes off in Indonesia. Someone tries to blow up a plane with his shoe. Several people get killed by a crazy sniper in the US. All these happen in the 21st Century. But somehow, spinners in this forum are able to link it to the teachings of Muhammad 1.400 years ago!

Saw #3 in blue? So are you not confirming what I said about you being a Muslim-hater, posting news about Pakistan and link it to teachings of Islam?

Care to support your claims about Islamic clerics giving the go ahead?

So are you going to support your statement? Or are you going to continue to show that you are a Muslim-hater, residing in a Muslim-hate site?

You see Muslim-hater, when you have hate in you, it shows. Try as much as you attempt to hide, it will still show. So stop denying that you are a Muslim-hater residing in a Muslim-hate site.

If you are sincere in condemning sex slavery, you have to do better than just a single sentence against Christianity, the real propagator, instead of dedicating 300+ posts condemning Islam.

But of course, you cannot see it that you are a hypocrite. You are a Muslim-hater, aren’t you? Isn’t hate and hypocrisy something very, very difficult to hide?
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.

If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” Smile

alizaki

Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 3

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2003 10:13 am Post subject:

Crow wrote:

Abdullah, dont tell me I dont know what islam teaches. I've read the quran. I was a muslim for about a year.

Oh bro. that makes you a definative authority on Islam. A YEAR. WOW. Loads of time to understand a whole religion. I know ppl who couldnt read The Lord Of The Rings in a year and you understood, debated, renouced and proclaimed yourself an authority in 1 Year. you i gotto meet.
_________________
let there be light

alizaki

Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 3

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2003 10:14 am Post subject:

Crow wrote:

Abdullah, dont tell me I dont know what islam teaches. I've read the quran. I was a muslim for about a year.

Crow

Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:48 pm Post subject:

alizaki wrote:

Crow wrote:

Abdullah, dont tell me I dont know what islam teaches. I've read the quran. I was a muslim for about a year.

Its long enough to figure out the parts I could never accept as a rational being and a WOMAN.
_________________

KAMIKAZE WATERMELON!

Fischerspooner is weird..but cool

adnan

Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2003 2:02 pm Post subject:

Ali Zaki, All types of people leave Islam. According to a Muslim missionary in Libya, 667 people in Africa are leaving Islam per hour: http://whatsthisthen.netfirms.com/muslimsleavingislam.html#part5 I was muslim since birth, and I left Islam. Ali Sina was Muslim by birth. CYD was a convert to Islam, she left Islam. Young old, born Muslims, converted Muslims, all leave Islam - with reason. You should have asked Crow why she left Islam. Why dont you ask her? If you think you know more about Islam, why dont you tell us, maybe we missed out something? Try to convince us. Surely, the last religion of the Creator should be so strong and undeniable, it would be very hard for a normal sane person to refuse to beleive in it. Right? Thats how the "last" religion should be designed. Unless Allah was playing a game and he really didnt care whether we believed in Islam or not. Adnan

SMHA

Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 509

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2003 8:54 pm Post subject:

Crow wrote:

By the way, like I said, I've read the quran, and I have nowhere seen the practice of slavery abolished.

FYI:

Q&A.

http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/Aali...k/msg00818.html

http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/Aali...k/msg00224.html

Book>
http://www.al-islam.org/slavery/

al-islam site is off , so you can try later.
_________________
"They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths,
but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected,
even though the Unbelievers may detest." [Quran 9:32]

SMHA

Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 509

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2003 9:26 pm Post subject:

doubtless wrote:

Judaism and Christianity have renounced slavery a long time ago. Muslim countries were made to renounce slavery under force only in 1962. Islam has not yet renounced slavery, given how the muslims behave in sudan and nigeria. Then there are muslims like Abdullanoor who are unable to say that the policy of letting old men marry children by muslims for the last 1400 years, (and which is still going on in muslim countries where the highly respected Islamic religious leaders are still marrying 9 and 10 year old because those laws and policies were based upon emulating Muhammad) are barbaric and should be stopped in this day and age!! Is there any jew or christian that claims that slavery or brutalization of children is acceptable at present? But there are "Islamic Scholars" who are giving Fatwas saying that these barbaric customs are muslims rights because Allah has given them the law, and it is only the kaffirs that want them stopped!

Fot the slavery issue please read the previous post in thi sthread.

Now i am not a scholar but just common sense will do here. You actually have two sepaerate questions,but because of the misinformation form the Muslims sources , you bundle them into one.

One is the issue of the age of marriage of a girL. strickly speaking when she reaches the age when she gets menses(nature dictats this, liek man can have babies when his is able to firtilize the egg, and girls used to get married in very early age in the past, current socio-economic-cultural thing is different. We are judging the past with today's prism.

Second, the issue of the marriage of Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h.a.h.p) is very controvertiol. I am not sure of what her age was, but i will offer this article, make your own decision:

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/FAQ/what_was_ayesha.htm

What was Ayesha’s (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage?

What was Ayesha’s (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.

Reply*

To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayeshas (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)
Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.
According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

I hope I have been of some help.

Best Regards

The Learner

A Response to "What was Ayesha's Age..."

Thanks for the email. But I find it woefully lacking in actual quotes. The response is filled with "so and so said such and such". That doesn't cut it. In my paper, that deals with Aisha and her age, I not only say who says what, but I provide the entire quote. You need to do the same. And, the man which the paper was quoting from refers to Tabari. Well, Tabari also says Aisha was 9... did your "learned" one miss that? If you need the reference, check my paper. Further, I also quote from Bukhari, and there are many quotes concerning Aisha's age in that. Bukhari is the most highly respected hadith, so, you're going to have to do better then conjecture and assumptions. Finally, there is Abu Dawud's quote as well.... all exclusively saying Aisha was 9. Don't forget, Islamic custom says men can marry girls after their first menstruation. Girls today have them as young as age 9. If you could find that actual quotes from the author's your scholar is quoting from, that would be beneficial. Otherwise, his arugement is only hot air; it lacks real substance.

Reply

My answer was for your satisfaction, not for a debate, and I therefore avoided all the actual quotes. I am extremely sorry for that.

In any case, I provide below my references as well as my answers to the "comments" of your Christian friend:

The First Argument

My first argument was:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

I am sure your Christian friend can see that this argument does not need any reference. It is a simple fact.

The Second Argument

My second argument was:

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event [from him], even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.

Again, the argument that all those who heard this narrative from Hisham ibn `urwah were Iraqis, is a simple statement of fact. This can be checked in the biographical sketches of these narrators in any of the books written on the narrators.

The Third Argument

My third argument was:

Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)

The actual statements, their translations and their complete references are given below:

i.e. "Yaqub ibn Shaibah says: He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq." (Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol 11, pg 50)

i.e. "I have been told that Malik [ibn Anas] objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq." (Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol 11, pg 50)

The Fourth Argument

My fourth argument was:

Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the [life sketches of the] narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)

The actual statement, its translation and its complete references is given below:

i.e. "when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly" (Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Arabic, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol 4, pg 301)

The Fifth Argument

My fifth argument was:

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

The actual statements referred to in the above paragraph, their translations and their complete references are given below:

i.e. "Ayesha (ra) said: I was a young girl, when verse 46 of Surah Al-Qamar, [the 54th chapter of the Qur'an], was revealed. (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr)

The Sixth Argument

My sixth argument was:

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in Badr is given in Muslim, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab karahiyati'l-isti`anah fi'l-ghazwi bikafir. Ayesha (ra) while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says:

i.e. "when we reached Shajarah". It is quite obvious from these words that Ayesha (ra) was with the group travelling towards Badr.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of `uhud is given in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab Ghazwi'l-nisa' wa qitalihinna ma`a'lrijal.

i.e. "Anas reports that On the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet (pbuh). [On that day,] I saw Ayesha (ra) and Umm-i-Sulaim (ra), they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hinderance in their movement]."

As far as the fact that children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to particpate in the battle of `uhud, it is narrated in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-maghazi, Bab ghazwati'l-khandaq wa hiya'l-ahza'b, Arabic. i.e. "Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation."

The Seventh Argument

My seventh argument was:

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

The relevant references required in this argument are provided below:

For the Difference of Ayesha's (ra) and Asma's (ra) Age
According to Abda'l-Rahman ibn abi zanna'd:

i.e. Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (Siyar A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol 2, Pg 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risalah, Beirut, 1992)

According to Ibn Kathir:
i.e. "she [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by ten years". (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

For Asma's (ra) Age at Her Death in 73 AH
According to Ibn Kathir:

i.e. "She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [i.e. 73 AH], as we have already mentioned, five days later she herself died, according to other narratives her death was not five but ten or twenty or a few days over twenty or a hundred days later. The most well known narrative is that of hundred days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old." (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 372, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani:

i.e. "She [Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." (Taqribu'l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Pg 654, Arabic, Bab fi'l-nisa', al-harfu'l-alif, Lucknow)

The Eighth Argument

My eighth argument was:

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.

The original statement in Tabari, its translation and reference follows:
i.e. "All four of his [Abu Bakr's] children were born of his two wives -- the names of whom we have already mentioned -- during the pre-Islamic period."(Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, Vol 4, Pg 50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979)

The Ninth Argument

My ninth argument was:

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `umar ibn al-Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.

According to Ibn Hisham, Ayesha (ra) was the 20th or the 21st person to enter into the folds of Islam (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 227 - 234, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh) While `umar ibn al-khattab was preceded by forty individuals (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

The Tenth Argument

My tenth argument was:

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

Unfortunately, I do not have the primary reference to this argument at the moment. The secondary reference for this argument is: Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Urdu, Pg 38, Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

The Eleventh Argument

My eleventh argument was:

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

The complete reference for this reporting of Ahmad ibn Hanbal is: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut.

The Twelfth Argument

My twelfth argument was:

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

Ibn Hajar's original statement, its translation and reference follows:
i.e. Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old... she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra). (Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978)

These are all the references for the material I provided in my initial response.

Your Christian friend, besides asking for these references has also briefly commented on my reply, he writes:

And, the man which the paper was quoting from refers to Tabari. Well, Tabari also says Aisha was 9... did your "learned" one miss that? If you need the reference, check my paper.

Further, I also quote from Bukhari, and there are many quotes concerning Aisha's age in that. Bukhari is the most highly respected hadith, so, you're going to have to do better then conjecture and assumptions.

Finally, there is Abu Dawud's quote as well.... all exclusively saying Aisha was 9.

It seems that your friend has missed out on my point on Hisham ibn `urwah. He seems to be unaware of the fact that each one of his quoted statement, whether it is from Tabari, Bukhari, Muslim or Abu Dawud, is either narrated by Hisham ibn `urwah or is reported to the respective author by or through an Iraqi. Not even a single narrative is free from either of the two problems.

I have quoted Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim to show that even their own information contradicts with the narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age. Thus, when the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) age is not reliable and when there is information in the same books that contradicts the narrative of Ayesha's age, I see absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha's (ra) age is accepted (when there are adequate grounds to reject it) and other (contradictory) information is rejected (when there is no ground to reject it).

Regards,

The Learner

*The answer to this question is primarily based on the research by Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi (urdu) as presented in his booklet, "Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat", Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

More on Ayesha’s Age

I would like to see your response to the following which is relevant to Aisha's age question of your site.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5603/aishah.html

An Intermediate Response…

I have read the referred article. I really do not think that it needs any reply from my side, as it relies on the very sources that I have presented my reservations upon. In case it has raised any questions in your mind, I shall be glad to answer them. But without any specific questions I really don't see any reason why I should write any thing else on the issue.

regards

The Learner

Clarification

You state in your article that the hadith of Aisha's age is narrated by only one narrator, Hisham ibn `urwah, after he moved to Iraq at the age of 71.

But according to Robert Squires:

"... two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Urwa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahadith in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when 'Aishah was "six years old", but was not consummated until she was "nine years old".

I would like to see some clarification on this point.

Thanks.

Reply

I would first of all like to make a small (part) correction to the the first point in my article. I had written:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

In fact, although it is Hisham ibn `Urwah who is reporting most of these narratives, but it is not him, but his father `Urwah who is common in all these narratives. It must be remembered that when I say that all these narratives have been reported through `Urwah, it means that it is only the narratives of `Urwah in which the chain of narrators are acceptably strong. Besides the narratives of `Urwah, there do exist five other chains of narrators reporting the same thing, but those chains include people who have either been strongly or lightly criticised by the some of the scholars and compilers of the lives of the reporters of Hadith.

Even though this correction of names from Hisham ibn `Urwah to his father, `Urwah does not have much of an effect on my arguments, as my statement: "…An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three" holds good in both the cases. Other facts that do not change include that there is not a single tradition that comes with an all-Medinan chain of narrators, where Ayesha spent most of her life. There is hardly (if at all) any exception to the fact that all the chains of this report include one or more Iraqi or one or more Basri in them. This makes the credibility of the reports ascribed to `Urwah’s somewhat questionable too.

Now, let us take a look at the article you have referred to. Besides the point that you have raised, I wish to present my reservations on one more point of this article, that is giving the narratives describing Ayesha’s age the status of Sunnah. Let us first take up the point you have raised.

I had stated previously and have reiterated here that all the dependable narratives of this report come through one person – `urwah. Mr. Robert Squires, on the other hand states:

Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator.

I think there is a spelling error in this statement of Mr. Squires. It seems that the name of the third narrator should be `Urwah or `Urwa rather than `Ursa. I request Mr. Squires to correct me if I am wrong. Another thing that needs to be clarified is that Abu Hishaam and `Urwah are the same person. `Urwah, because of his son Hishaam, was also called Abu Hishaam, according to the Arab tradition.

In response to your question on the apparent contradiction in my statement when compared with that of Mr. Squires’, I would only like to say that it is just a case of a simple misunderstanding. This misunderstanding can easily be removed by a little more understanding of the two statements.

When Mr. Squires states that these reports come to us from different sources, he is really considering only the first person (sahabi or ta’bi`y) in the chain of narrators of these reports. On the other hand, when I say that these reports are only (or mostly) reported by one narrator only, it means that even though the first person in the chain of these reports changes there is common narrator in all these reports. Just to clarify, take the example of the four reportings of Sahih Bukhari. According to Mr Squires: "Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa [`Urwa or `Urwah??] (7:88)." Now if you consider Mr. Squires’ statement, he is only referring to the first person in the chain of narrators in his statement. The statement is not wrong or misquoted. But on the other hand, if you take a look at the chain of narrators of the four reportings of Sahih Bukhari, you shall see that in the first two cases, Ayesha’s (ra) statement has been quoted by none other than `Urwah – Abu Hishaam (the father of Hishaam). In the later two cases, it is (Mr. Squires is requested to correct me if I am mistaken) `Urwah – Abu Hishaam – who is being referred to by Mr. Squires.

I think the above explanation should suffice as clarification that you desired.

Mr. Squires has also implied in his referred article that these narratives describing Ayesha’s (ra) age are a part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). He states:

At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of 'Aishah is "not found in the Qur'an", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the Qur'an and the Sunnah - and the Qur'an tells us that.

Mr. Squires has also referred to an article by Mr. Suhaib Hasan (http://home.att.net/~r-squires/sunnah.htm) in which Mr. Hasan has defined Sunnah as:

… the Sunnah includes the sayings of the Prophet, peace be upon him, known commonly as hadiths (i.e. sayings), his practices, and actions which gained his approval.

In my view, the above statement, though commonly accepted by Muslims, does not accurately describe Sunnah. But for the purpose of this discussion, let us take this to be an accurate explanation of Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). But even then, the narratives describing Ayesha’s (ra) age at the time of her marriage do not fall under the scope of Sunnah. Obviously, the narrative of Ayesha’s (ra) age at the time of her marriage is not a part of "the sayings of the Prophet, (peace be upon him)", it cannot be termed as the Prophet’s "practices" and neither can it be included in the "actions which gained his approval". The narrative of Ayesha’s age is just a narrative of a historical event. Just because it has been reported by Bukhari and Muslim, does not change its status from being a narrative of a historical event to a Sunnah. Because of this fact, this narrative should be seen in the light of all other narratives of historical events which have been reported by Bukhari, Muslim and other historians of Islam. This is exactly what I have tried to do in my article from point number 5 to 12.

In the presence of all these historical narratives that contradict the narrative of Ayesha’s age at the time of her marriage, any one who wants to prove that Ayesha (ra) was nine years at the time of consummation of her marriage has the responsibility of telling others why is he rejecting all the other historical narratives and accepting only the one that states Ayesha’s age to be nine at the time of her marriage.

I hope this helps.

The Learner
_________________
"They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths,
but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected,
even though the Unbelievers may detest." [Quran 9:32]

Chingachgook

Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 261
Location: White Eagle Land

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 9:26 am Post subject:

SMHA wrote:

One is the issue of the age of marriage of a girL. strickly speaking when she reaches the age when she gets menses(nature dictats this, liek man can have babies when his is able to firtilize the egg, and girls used to get married in very early age in the past, current socio-economic-cultural thing is different. We are judging the past with today's prism.

But I thought ISLAM is a Way Of Life??? Shouldn't it be applicable now? Why didn't Mohammad's Adviser provide a Provisio or an exception to his marrying a 6-year-old? He could have forseen that this is going to be controversial as time goes by? Didn't Mohammad even think that a 9-year old of today has to attend school? Laughing

............................
C(urious) Gach Gook! Very Happy

SMHA

Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 509

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 5:22 pm Post subject:

Chingachgook wrote:

But I thought ISLAM is a Way Of Life??? Shouldn't it be applicable now?
............................
C(urious) Gach Gook! :D

It is still true that girls get to that age early (the age they are capable of having a child, Its dictated by nature), And if people get married at the age their biological clock tells them to we will have less immorality and unattended new born or unattended new born /unborn in some toilet or river/or some physicians dustbin. So the nature didn't change.
_________________
"They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths,
but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected,
even though the Unbelievers may detest." [Quran 9:32]

Crow

Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 5:26 pm Post subject:

SMHA wrote:

Chingachgook wrote:

But I thought ISLAM is a Way Of Life??? Shouldn't it be applicable now?
............................
C(urious) Gach Gook! Very Happy

Thats why we Kafirs have BIRTH CONTROL and teach our youth that abstinence is the best way to avoid unwanted pregnancies. It is because of ignorance and IMMATURITY that these young girls end up abandoning their babies.
_________________

KAMIKAZE WATERMELON!

Fischerspooner is weird..but cool

SMHA

Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 509

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2003 6:28 pm Post subject:

We are discussing nature , and if nature deemed it necessary that a girl is Mature enough to have a child, you want to fight it and say she is immature. Girls mature faster and at a very earlier age compared to boys as you see nature did not give them the ability to father a child till much later age. _________________ "They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest." [Quran 9:32]

Display posts from previous:

	Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> Muhammad	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Page 10 of 10

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum