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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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 Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:06 am Post subject: |
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So Egyptian Kafir, do we have a deal or not?
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If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!”  |
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Egyptian Kafir
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Nope, you have not answered. Is that a yes or a no? I want to hear it FROM YOU. Because if I don’t hear it from YOU, you will RETRACT LATER, like what you have ALWAYS DONE.
So once again, my child,
Q4. Hence EXPLICIT VERSUS ARE OF IMPORTANCE TO YOU?
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and what do you call this quote in my first post on page 6, dumbfuck?
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quote:
Q4. Hence EXPLICIT VERSUS ARE OF IMPORTANCE TO YOU?
yes, Just as it did with the other things It banned (haram) on stages through abrogation, or on one stage.
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what was this, kid ? Its a "yes"...and you totally ignored it and repeated the same question over and over...i wonder why am i wasting my time like this with your childish shit .
now that you got the answer, I await you to answer this again:
did not islam ban drinking? You can easily prove to me from islamic scripture that muslims who lived after the time of muhammad and Drink are infracting islamic orders and commiting haram by doing this.
did not islam ban riba? You can easily prove to me from islamic scripture that muslims who lived after the time of muhammad and commit riba are infracting islamic orders and commiting haram by doing this.
did not islam ban gambling? You can easily prove to me from islamic scripture that muslims who lived after the time of muhammad and gamble are infracting islamic orders and commiting haram by doing this.
DID NOT ISLAM BAN SEX SLAVERY? SO PROVE FROM ISLAMIC SCRIPTURES THAT MUSLIMS WHO LIVED AFTER THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD AND HAVE SEX WITH THEIR SLAVES ARE INFRACTING ISLAMIC ORDERS AND COMMITING HARAM BY DOING THIS!
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“The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.” ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes |
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2003 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Aaw….. I see that Egyptian Kafir is throwing temper tantrums again. Heh. Just to sidetrack a little. It is very strange how Muslim-haters can use abusive language without getting banned, while Muslims or others, who irritate these foulmouthed guys, get the boot in double-quick time. Remember my six-pointer in my very first post in this site? 
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quote:
Q4. Hence EXPLICIT VERSUS ARE OF IMPORTANCE TO YOU?
yes, Just as it did with the other things It banned (haram) on stages through abrogation, or on one stage.
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Good. Now please do not back off like what you have done many, many times. I hate people who shift goalposts or change rules of their own arguments halfway, when they find that it works against them.
So your reasoning is that because it has explicit verses on the eradication of gambling and drinking, the Quran has effectively banned them. But because there is no explicit verse banning sex slavery, it has not effectively banned sex slavery.
OK. Suppose I play along with you on the importance of explicit verses. The price I would pay as a Muslim is that Islam has not explicitly banned sex slavery. At most, it has, in your own words – yes, your words so don’t back out - treated slaves in a more humanely manner, but not banned sex slavery.
Here is evidence of your admission – yes, YOUR admission, not mine (have to highlight that in bold because you are known to retract statements when they disfavour you). Posted on Sun Mar 16, 2003 10:13 pm, page 4.
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In conclusion:
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Did islam Set Some Rules on to treat slaves Good? YES
Is the position of slaves in islam a little better that their position in non-islamic places? YES
Are the sex Slaves' Percentage of chance to freedom a little Higher in Islam than other places? YES.
Was Sex slavery In Islam Active and Allowed in the Islamic State that applies exact islamic Sharia for 13 centuries
?YES
Did Islam end/prohibit Sex slavery? NO.
That is my point from the Begining as I stated..Did I Deny that islam Has Set Some orders To Treat slaves Good, no,did I claim that islam propagates/Arouse Sex savery? No and i stated this from the begining, But Islam Did NOT END OR STOP sex slavery..Just put some cases To make their State Better While Still Allowing it to conitinue and Never Prohibited sex slavery
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So again, from your own mouth, Islam took care of slaves better than others.
To repeat, the price I am paying to follow your principle, is the admission that Islam did not stop slavery, but inherited the system and it treated slaves better than non-Muslims.
Now let us see the price you have to pay.
Is there explicit verse/s in the Quran that Muhammad (p) was accused by his enemies, he was mad or possessed? YES.
Is there explicit verse/s in the Quran that Muhammad (p) was accused by his enemies, he misled the people? YES.
Is there explicit verse/s in the Quran that Muhammad (p) was accused by his enemies, he fabricated the Quran? YES.
Hence, there were allegations by his enemies that he was mad, possessed, misled the people or fabricated the Quran.
Let us continue.
Is there explicit verse/s in the Quran that Muhammad (p) was accused by his enemies, to have had a lustful affair with Zaynab bint Jahsh? NO!
Is there explicit verse/s in the Quran that Muhammad (p) was accused by his enemies, to be a paedophile when he married Aisha? NO!
Is there explicit verse/s in the Quran that Muhammad (p) was accused by his enemies, that he deliberately killed Safiyah’s family so that he could marry her, again out of lust? NO!
Hence since there is NO MENTION OF SUCH ALLEGATIONS BY HIS ENEMIES, then surely there were no such allegations made against Muhammad (p) then!
Are you willing to buy that? If yes, then consider these points.
1. The enemies of Muhammad (p) were all out to kill Islam, even to the point of killing him.
2. They fought wars with him. That shows how serious they wanted to remove him and Islam.
3. They accused him of being mad, misleading the people and fabrication.
4. They could have finished him off with character assassination, that in spite of teaching people morals, he led lustfully and led the life of a paedophile.
5. But due to the absence of explicit verses in #4, will you now admit that the allegations that Muhammad (p) was a lustful and paedophilic character TODAY, is a fabrication of latter day enemies of Islam, AND NOT the original words of the enemies of Muhammad (p) who knew him in person?
6. Hence, all your arguments you fought so hard in the Zaynab thread and all the arguments other Muslim-haters fought in the Aisha thread, that he was lustful and paedophilic are nothing but modern day fabrication?
Are you willing to pay that price above? IF YES, I consider the topic CLOSED.
I am willing to pay the price that Islam has a system to treat slaves in a humanely manner and not end slavery, as what you said, if it means you pay the price and admit that Muhammad (p) had never been lustful or paedophilic, and that such allegations are nothing more than modern day fabrication – because there are no verses recording that his enemies themselves, alleged such.
Also remember that in comparison, there are explicit verses recording that he was alleged to be mad, misled the people, possessed or fabricated the Quran.
The above also means that I would not take your challenge, because it now becomes obsolete, since I admit there is no eradication of slavery.
However, if NO, you are not willing to pay that price, then I will tell you to get lost. Because once again, it would be a case of you retracting an argument when you find it works against you.
So what is your take? Still willing to go by the principle of explicit verses? I leave it to you.
God willing, I will take a short break before putting up a new topic. But for sure, I know, Muslim-haters would not let this topic die. Why? Because to them, the slander of Muhammad (p) and Islam must live!
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To other Muslim-haters. I know you are itching to have a say by now, especially on the Zaynab and/or Aisha issue. I have no problems with that. But be prepared to be grilled. I will approach from the following angle.
- Are you willing to back up EK’s stand on explicit verses to be applied on the Aisha/Zaynab case?
If yes, I will welcome you and we can discuss.
If you say no because that is EK’s stand and not yours, then I will question your presence here. Why interrupt a discussion between EK and myself on a topic you are not willing to take a stand on? Is your presence nothing but just to continue to keep the slime of Aisha/Zaynab alive, but not take a stand on the issue discussed, ie the principle of applying explicit verses?
Think about it, Muslim-haters. 
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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Chingachgook
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 261
Location: White Eagle Land
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2003 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Ye Great Abddul!
I think what lies at the back of your mind is not so much of Quranic or Biblical slavery but the bigger picture of "why grill Islam when Christians are/were just as bad" in the context of WTC ? Right Abdul?  C'mon man! Big Chief Chingachgook knows!
If that's your intention, I think you know the answer too! Islam bashing came about because of Muslims actions! There's no more Russia to be kept busy by! There's no more Communist expanism policies for the US to be kept busy by........... It was very unfortunate of "Islam" to present itself amids all these "boredom" don't you think so?
EK came up with "eye-opening" verses and clear reasonings to disprove that Islam did not end or even try to end slavery in stages? I don't see any stage at all in "withdrawing at the crucial moment!" Why withdraw at such crucial moment anyway? Bwahahahahah harharharhar.......... 
Even if that a stage has been set down to "end" slavery, who dares "complete" that stage when no one can add or re-write the Quran or Hadith! 
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Big Chief Chingachgook |
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2003 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Well, abdullah? Are you going to take on Egyption Kafir's challenge or not? I'm trying to resist the urge to type the word cowar--*grabs hand and holds it down*--cowa--*holds hand down still, yet my grip is starting to fail*...
*Just realised that you admitted islam did not get rid of slavery*
Yet you still refuse to see this as evidenc against this religion? There you go, there we have DEFINATE evidence that you are willing to tolerate ANY evil in religion, hence you beleive in it BLINDLY! Shame on you! 
And EK? Though I am on your side, your cursing really dosent make us look good..*winces* I know it's hard, but try to refrain from the name calling...I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I'm just giving you a suggestion
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Last edited by Crow on Sun Mar 23, 2003 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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scepsis
Joined: 10 Nov 2002
Posts: 647
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2003 8:15 am Post subject: |
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As I was saying...
| scepsis wrote: | A few questions, abdullahnoor. You probably won't answer them, but...
A female slave can acquire her "freedom" by letting her owner fuck her and get her pregnant and/or marry her. What choice does she have? What can her owner do to her, as punishment, under islamic law, if she rejects or resists this? Does the owner have the right to rape her- or, rather, commit what would be rape if she weren't a piece of property- if she is so foolish as to reject his very reasonable offers?
You say that this would lead to the abolition of slavery. How long, do you think it would have taken before slavery vanished using this method?
Why didn't Mahomet, if he disapproved of slavery (except slavery to his idea of god) simply announce a time after which no slaves could be taken?
If "what Islam teaches" is so good, why is "what Muslims do" so bad an example? When did "what Muslims do" stop being a good example to the rest of us? |
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Egyptian Kafir
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2003 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Islam has not banned sex slavery. At most, it has, in your own words – yes, your words so don’t back out - treated slaves in a more humanely manner, but not banned sex slavery.
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thats was my point from the begining.
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Is there explicit verse/s in the Quran that Muhammad (p) was accused by his enemies, to be a paedophile when he married Aisha? NO!
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where did you see me argue about aisha's marriage?
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Is there explicit verse/s in the Quran that Muhammad (p) was accused by his enemies, to have had a lustful affair with Zaynab bint Jahsh? NO!
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and How were they supposed To know the details of such affiar ? did muhammad Run around screaming that He saw Zaynab in her chamber and loved her? Not to mention that this story was in madinah..
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Is there explicit verse/s in the Quran that Muhammad (p) was accused by his enemies, to have had a lustful affair with Zaynab bint Jahsh? NO!
Is there explicit verse/s in the Quran that Muhammad (p) was accused by his enemies, to be a paedophile when he married Aisha? NO!
Is there explicit verse/s in the Quran that Muhammad (p) was accused by his enemies, that he deliberately killed Safiyah’s family so that he could marry her, again out of lust? NO!
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There is No mention To such tales in the Quran in the first place either explicitly or Not, Simply Because they are tales about Mo's personal Affairs and The Quran Is Not Their place To be In, Seera and Hadiths are, While the First four "yes" Examples Are Quran-vital Topics Because they Talk About Mo's prophethood, So there is no Logic Of Mixing the two groups together.
What Does The list of Tales you Gave me Have To Do with the Bannings and allowings (halal and haram)? The Case of explict Verses Explict Verses we are talking Is On Banning and allowing, Not The Seera Tales, Your complaining Was That I Linked Explict banning Verses of drinking , gambling and riba to what you Claim To be a banning verse of sex with slaves? And Now You Give Me verses of Tales while we are talking about the Case of banning and you think its a valid comparison?
and By rejecting your example I do not back off , why? See What did i Wrote in my "yes" response To you, Note the bold text :
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yes, Just as it did with the other things It banned (haram) on stages through abrogation, or on one stage. |
Our Subject Is the explict Verses of Banning ,allowing ,and setting rules, Not verses of Tales.
to explain better why your plan is invalid:
1- we were Talking About Things that Got banned in islam, and You claimed that sex with slaves was one of them
2- I Gave You that Comparison you know To show that Sex with slaves was not one of the banned things because there is no mention of such a ban.
3- Your objection was that Bannings Does not have to be explict.
4- AND Instead of Giving me an example of Other things that Got banned with unexplict Verses To support your claim that banning does not have to be explict, You Brought a set of things That are Not in the Category of bannings,allowings and setting rules in the first place !! , you brought seera Tales, These verses Do not allow or ban things and they do not set Rules...wich IS The Case we are Talking about in the Explict issue.
So, sorry..It seem that your weakly wooven plan did not work as good as you thought..
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I am willing to pay the price that Islam has a system to treat slaves in a humanely manner and not end slavery, as what you said, if it means you pay the price
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thanks for admitting that you are just arguing with me out of your ego and stubborness...Sadly as i explained above, you will not have it either way
one last note slave of allah, Im not debating with you Here for the purpose to convince you as I dont really give a damn about your admittion because I know that this will never happen as your pointless argument here is driven by your ego not Rationality, but my only purpose Here was to show the readers with proofs That You are lieing in your claim that islam banned sex slavery, and the readers already saw how your claim couldnt hold water specially infront of that comparison I posted, the un-refuted explaination i gave on why there is no valid ban or prevention to sex slavery in that verse, and your failure to take my challenge on 4 pages..
Now, For the challenge again :
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did not islam ban drinking? You can easily prove to me from islamic scripture that muslims who lived after the time of muhammad and Drink are infracting islamic orders and commiting haram by doing this.
did not islam ban riba? You can easily prove to me from islamic scripture that muslims who lived after the time of muhammad and commit riba are infracting islamic orders and commiting haram by doing this.
did not islam ban gambling? You can easily prove to me from islamic scripture that muslims who lived after the time of muhammad and gamble are infracting islamic orders and commiting haram by doing this.
DID NOT ISLAM BAN SEX SLAVERY? SO PROVE FROM ISLAMIC SCRIPTURES THAT MUSLIMS WHO LIVED AFTER THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD AND HAVE SEX WITH THEIR SLAVES ARE INFRACTING ISLAMIC ORDERS AND COMMITING HARAM BY DOING THIS!
_________________
“The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.” ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes
Last edited by Egyptian Kafir on Sun Mar 23, 2003 11:12 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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aseman
Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Posts: 152
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2003 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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who in their right mind would defend Islam..
Those people would follow a banana prophet if their mullahs ordered them to |
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mughal200
Joined: 16 Feb 2002
Posts: 485
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2003 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Brother Abdullahnoor,
By your discussion you have raised another problem on this thread.
The problem is that you are saying that Allah is taking into consideration people's attitudes and behaviours when giving orders and hence not giving the right orders the first time.
If people's attitude and behaviour is so important for Allah to adhere to then why did he forbid anything at all? For all such commandments create problems for people, do they not?
Allah either has to go by people's attitude and behaviours or give orders that he wants them to carry out, he cannot be confused, can he?
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http://www.religionandsecularism3.gq.nu |
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2003 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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Also, wheather the muslims treated their slaves better than non-muslims is irrelevant. They still PRACTISED slavery. Slavery is evil. It is controlling another human against their will, "owning" another human. Islam did NOT eradicate slavery. What does this show...? I leave it up to you to figure that one out.
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2003 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| aseman wrote: | who in their right mind would defend Islam..
Those people would follow a banana prophet if their mullahs ordered them to |
They will do ANYTHING to defend their faith. They will tollerate ANYTHING in their faith, even if it does not seem right to them. I've been there, done that. I know how Abdullahnoor thinks, because I was once in his shoes. But I know what religion does to your mind. It prevents you from realising the evil in something condoned by the faith, even if, had you been non-religious, you would have clearly seen the evil in it. I even remained in the faith, because I feared the fire, after an imam told me that slave owners could force their slaves girls to have sex with them (after I asked, and he tried to rationalise it of course, but it still struck me like a shot to the head to hear it..though I rationalised it myself, too).
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KAMIKAZE WATERMELON!
Fischerspooner is weird..but cool |
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Student
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2003 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Abdullah,
You are still keeping to your old mantra without answering my questions directly.
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Student
I have told you Muslims never believe Jesus taught that. But you really cannot deny the Bible is the one that propagates slavery!
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Like I said it before, prove it!! Show us from the life of Jesus that he was either a buyer, seller, owner or middle-man in the slave market.
Show us how his closest disciples preached the enslavement of non-Jews, and their roles in the slave industry.
Up till now, you have yet to do so.
On the other hand, we all know that Islam promotes slavery and sex-slavery.
Muhammad the Best Muslim keep, bought and sold slaves. He also fought wars and enslaved others. His closest followers apparently took a leaf out his book. Everywhere they went, they introduced Islam by the sword and carried off slaves.
Slavery was very much alive in the Islamic world, and the Islamic world (with their clerics) had NO intention to even end slavery. Slavery would not had been banned in the Islamic world if not for non-Muslims.
You also mentioned that hardly of Muhmmad's enemies ever accused him of paedophile and keeping of Safiyah for lustful reasons (after killing her family). Have you ever thought of this:
1) Paedophile is common in the Arab society. It is highly probable that Muhammad's enemies also had "little boys and girls" of their own.
2) Slaying of womenfolk's husbands and fathers and then keeping them as sex-slaves (or just slaves) was not uncommon back then. His enemies were most probably not innocent to such acts either.
In both cases, I am just surprised that you still consider such a man to be a "prophet from God". You obviously have very low standards.
So, am I correct to say that God teaches man that it is right to slay a woman's entire family and then keep her for one's own pleasure?? And does God teach me that it is acceptable to be pleasured by a 9-year-old girl?? Allah seems to have very low standards of morality indeed! |
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Ampbreia
Joined: 10 Oct 2002
Posts: 476
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2003 10:41 pm Post subject: The Face of True Evil |
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I think I see Abdullahnoor's problem here. He is not capable of seeing the face of evil because he wears it like a cloak. Sorry Abdullahnoor, you really do.
About Aisha? Of course Mohammad's own people did not condemn him for his paedophillia and neither did the Koran. Paedophillia wasn't considered a vice to these primitive, barbaric people. In any case, EVERYthing, no matter what it was, that the prophet wished to do was sure to be backed up by the Koran.
About the meaning of vice in any particulary time period or culture? Of course it differs based on the basic humanity and maturity of the people.
Very primitive people will ever fail to consider the feelings of other people if it should get in the way of their greeds or lusts. They don't care that a slave doesn't wish to be a slave, that torture hurts people unneccessarily and not for any possible good in the world, and they certainly don't care if some poor little girl is unprepared for the very adult office of matrimony, they can NOT take constructive criticism of any kind without responding angrily, even violently, and hence, cannot progress on their own merits in ANY endeavor except that of creating Hell on Earth. Guess what that makes hardline Muslims? 
Tell me, Abdullahnoor, if slavery is such a kind thing in Islam, why don't it's modern-day Sudenese victims feel that way about it? Do you care? Do you have any human concern for them at all? Would you like to be a slave as they are?
If not, then won't you agree that all good people should totally expunge slavery from their societies and that only truely evil people of the very lowest class, lower that cockroaches, would actually tolerate such inhumane practices?
Why on earth are you trying to defend such a barbaric practice? It is WRONG! It is indefensible! You give yourself a very bad image by even trying to defend it. And is it worth it? |
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CroMagnon
Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 2112
Location: West Kafiristan
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:51 am Post subject: |
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Once again, Egyptian Kafir the hypocrite and twister backs out! I knew he would. He has done it many times before! As with the harisa case, as with the riba case, as with the retraction of link case, as with Hafsa al Sharmut case, as with buying of slaves off the market case and now, as with the USE OF EXPLICIT VERSES!
Look EK, there is only one of two honourable things left for you to do. Either apply your principles uniformly throughout, or get lost from this thread. I don’t like discussing with hypocrites.
Now before leave this thread and start a new topic in another thread, let me highlight how you twisted in this thread.
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Our Subject Is the explict Verses of Banning and allowing , Not verses of Tales.
1- we were Talking About Things that Got banned in islam, and You claimed that sex with slaves was one of them
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That is correct, but I got you to commit to apply uniformly the principle of explicit verses. I have said it over and over again, that you cannot use one principle if it suits you now, but discard that very same principle when it works against you!
Yet you did it again!
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2- I Gave You that Comparison you know To show that Sex with slaves was not one of the banned things because there is no mention of such a ban.
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I know you did.
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3- Your objection was that Bannings Does not have to be explict.
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It was then, but no longer now, because I am willing to use YOUR PRINICPLE of explicit verses.
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4- AND Instead of Giving me an example of Other things that Got banned with unexplict Verses To support your claim that banning does not have to be explict, You Brought a set of things That are Not in the Category of bannings,allowings and setting rules in the first place !! , you brought seera Tales, These verses Do not allow or ban things and they do not set Rules...wich IS The Case we are Talking about in the Explict issue.
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Hahahahaha! So once again, the hypocrite kafir twists! You expected me to give you something that got banned without explicit verses. But instead, you forgot you have committed yourself to the principle of explicit verses, vis-à-vis those without explicit verses!
I brought up another example where there is a case of explicit verses – ie allegations of Muhammad (p) being mad, misled etc – and compare it with allegation where there are no explicit verses – ie his lust and paedophilic affair!
YOU now REFUSE to apply this same principle, which you fought SO HARD for the last week, because IT NOW WORKS AGAINST YOU! HYPOCRITE!
As I predicted, this is what you would do! How am I able to predict so accurately? Because this is what you have been doing all the while. That is, using arguments when it suits you, but discarding it when it disfavours you!
As for your challenge, like I said, it is now obsolete. Using YOUR principle, it would mean there is no breaking of Islamic rules if they had sex.
Chinga
| Quote: |
I think what lies at the back of your mind is not so much of Quranic or Biblical slavery but the bigger picture of "why grill Islam when Christians are/were just as bad" in the context of WTC ? Right Abdul?
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Wrong. I came here to defend Islam and to show that this is a hate site. What I have done so far is that one of the tactics Muslim-haters use here is to flood and confuse. Potshots taken here so far confirm that.
In this thread alone, I have shown the intentions of Muslim-haters, that is, Islam-bashing. Here is a summary of the points proving that.
1. The real propagator of sex slavery is still unscathed!
2. Muslim-haters would go great lengths to slime Islam even if only one jihadi protects his religion.
3. One of the tactics used (as with EK) is to apply principles of his arguments only when it favours him, but immediately discards it if it disfavours him.
4. The rest of you, with no intellectual ability to understand what is going on, simply flood and do not address the main issue in the discussion.
Note that for #3, this has been a regular feature of EK.
So there you are. I believe there is enough evidence in this thread, like in so many other threads I have started, to show that this is a hate site, designed for Muslim-haters to vent their hate, bile and contempt for Islam.
But I know for sure, you Muslim-haters will keep this thread alive! Why? Because to Muslim-haters, the slime against Muhammad (p) and Islam must live on!
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If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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nomad
Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 385
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Like I said it before, prove it!! Show us from the life of Jesus that he was either a buyer, seller, owner or middle-man in the slave market. |
Yes, we're still waiting for this answer...Could it be that your interpretation of what Jesus meant about fulfilling the law is incorrect ?
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Ignorance is Bliss, and I am Happy only 49 percent of the Time. |
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scepsis
Joined: 10 Nov 2002
Posts: 647
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 9:38 am Post subject: |
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For the third time of asking...
You really are remarkably skilled, abdullahnoor, at not answering inconvenient questions. Not just these questions but all down this thread and all over the site. Is this because you cannot answer them or because you dare not answer them?
Is your printed laugh supposed to be a high-pitched hysterical giggle or the deep sinister Valentine Dyall variety? Could you give pitch guidance next time?
| scepsis wrote: | A few questions, abdullahnoor. You probably won't answer them, but...
A female slave can acquire her "freedom" by letting her owner fuck her and get her pregnant and/or marry her. What choice does she have? What can her owner do to her, as punishment, under islamic law, if she rejects or resists this? Does the owner have the right to rape her- or, rather, commit what would be rape if she weren't a piece of property- if she is so foolish as to reject his very reasonable offers?
You say that this would lead to the abolition of slavery. How long, do you think it would have taken before slavery vanished using this method?
Why didn't Mahomet, if he disapproved of slavery (except slavery to his idea of god) simply announce a time after which no slaves could be taken?
If "what Islam teaches" is so good, why is "what Muslims do" so bad an example? When did "what Muslims do" stop being a good example to the rest of us? |
A few more points for you to consider:
"The real propagator of sex slavery is still unscathed." Is sex slavery, then, yet another idea Mahomet stole from some one else?
There is also your idea of "freedom". Let us look at it in this context. A slave may gain her "freedom" by letting her owner fuck her and get pregnant. He may even marry her. However, as she is a slave her owner can fuck her anyway, and not "free" her if he pleases. There are certain advantages to marriage: the size of the stick with which he can beat her is smaller than if she were still a slave. Her owner/husband can divorce her as he pleases; he has full authority over the children which gained her her "freedom"; slave or "free" she is dependent on him and he has power over her.
At first sight, this is a strange kind of "freedom". It is only when we examine the "freedom" enjoyed by moslems that we see that you are perfectly sincere in thinking that this is "freedom" and proof of the virtues of islam.
After all, a "free" moslem is a "slave of god". Slave to the idea of a creature far more brutal, far more cruel, far more intolerant, far more arbitrary and far more powerful than any merely human slave owner could ever be. A "free" moslem is expected to grovel before his owner five times a day, to be grateful for and praise his owner for all that he does and to accept any cruelty his owner perpetrates to test his obedience. The "freedom" of a moslem is the "freedom" to do willingly what fate will make him do anyway. Even his freedom to fuck his slaves is foreordained. A moslem does not fuck for fun, but for god. Elsewhere I compared a moslem to a lapdog. This was unfair. There is far more equality between a dog and its owner that there is between a slave of god and his owner, so what can one expect for the slave of a slave of god?
The tragedy is to see an intelligent person devoting intelligence to justify these monstrosities.
What an infinite mock is this, that a man should have the best use of eyes to see the path to blindness. |
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CroMagnon
Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 2112
Location: West Kafiristan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| scepsis wrote: | | There are certain advantages to marriage: the size of the stick with which he can beat her is smaller than if she were still a slave. |
Indeed:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 132
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.132
| Quote: | | "Narrated Zam'a, "The prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day.""" |
... don't flog your wife as hard as you flog your slaves when you want to have sex with her at the end of the day....
Those lucky wives!
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Sheikh Ahmad al Kat'ani:
"every hour 667 muslims are converting to christianity" |
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Face it, abdullahnoor: Your admittance that islam did not eradicate slavery, even after you fought so hard to prove the contrary, shows that you are willing to accept any evil in the name of your religion.
By the way, you DO agree that slavery is an evil practice, right? I certainly would find it quite amusing if you turned the cards and started claiming that slavery was a natural, good thing to do!
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CroMagnon
Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 2112
Location: West Kafiristan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Pffjeewww, there sure are some complicated rules about having sex with slave girls in islam ...
... take for example Malik's Muwatta:
Imam Malik's Muwatta
Book 28
http://qibla.dhs.org/alim_online/muwatta/mu28_2.htm
| Quote: | 35) Reprehensibility of Intercourse with Two Sisters or a Mother and Daughter that One Owns
Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that az-Zubayr ibn al-Awwam said the like of that.
Malik said that if a man had sexual relations with a female slave that he owned, and then he wanted to also have relations with her sister, the sister was not halal for a man until intercourse with the slave-girl had been made haram for him by marriage, setting free, kitaba, or the like of that - for instance, if he had married her to his slave or someone other than his slave.
37) Prohibition against Intercourse with a Slave-Girl who Belonged to One's Father
Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that Abu Nahshal ibn al-Aswad said to al-Qasim ibn Muhammad,"I saw a slave-girl of mine uncovered in the moonlight, and so I sat on her as a man sits on a woman. She said that she was menstruating, so I stood up and have not gone near her after that. Can I give her to my son to have intercourse with?" Al-Qasim forbade that. |
Translation of Malik's Muwatta, Book 2:
Purity
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/002.mmt.html
| Quote: | Book 2, Number 2.23.90:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that the slave girls of Abdullah ibn Umar used to wash his feet and bring him a mat of palm leaves while they were menstruating.
Malik was asked whether a man who had women and slavegirlscould have intercourse with all of them before he did ghusl. He said, "There is no harm in a man having intercourse with two of his slave girls before he does ghusl. It is disapproved of, however, to go to a freewoman on another's day. There is no harm in making love first to one slave girl and then to another when one is junub."
Malik was asked about a man who was junub and water was put down for him to do ghusl with.Then he forgot and put his finger into it to find out whether it was hot or cold. Malik said, "If no filth has soiled his fingers, I do not consider that that makes the water impure." |
But luckily there are also some very clear rules  :
Imam Malik's Muwatta
Book 28
http://qibla.dhs.org/alim_online/muwatta/mu28_2.htm:
Don't have sex with a slave girl that is already impregnated by another muslim brother:
| Quote: | 21) Combinations of Women Not to be Married Together
Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that Said ibn al-Musayyab said, "It is forbidden to be married to a woman and her paternal or maternal aunt at the same time, and for a man to have intercourse with a female slave who is carrying another man's child." |
Don't have sex with both a mother and her daughter, one immediately after the other:
| Quote: | 33) Reprehensibility of Intercourse with Two Sisters or a Mother and Daughter that One Owns
Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Ubaydullah ibn Abdullah ibn Utba ibn Masud from his father that Umar ibn al-Khattab was asked about a woman and her daughter who were in the possession of the right hand, and whether one could have intercourse with one of them after the other Umar said, "I dislike both being permitted together." He then forbade that. |
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Sheikh Ahmad al Kat'ani:
"every hour 667 muslims are converting to christianity" |
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Farside
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 324
Location: The Other Side
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:10 pm Post subject: Sex Slaves |
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CroMagnon, you should compile a list of all rules and laws from the six hadiths pertaining to having sex with slave girls or boys. It should be an interesting read.  Do you know if all six hadiths have English translations online?
From the Far Side  |
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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