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Faith Freedom International
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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 Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="abdullahnoor"]Note that the MAIN POINT OF THIS THREAD – the source of sex slavery – the BIBLE, still remains UNCONDEMNED, whereas the Quran gets the flak!
That is really, REALLY getting on my nerves! And then you ignore my reply to your accusations...who really is the bigot here?? YOU are not willing to even read my reply to your accusations!! BIGOT!!! SHAME ON YOU!!   
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Crow wrote: | Crogmanon, Crow and Bob
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You people keep saying that you have nothing against Muslims and everything against Islam. Yet time and time again, you condemn Islam for what Muslims do and not what Islam teaches.
As I said, your words don’t match. If you really are sincere, you will judge Islam for what it teaches and not what Muslims do.[/quote]
Abdullah, I have read the quran. There are many verses that are VERY VAUGE, hence there is no definate ruling on what islam teaches in such situations. How can there be a TRUE ISLAM when there are so many different ways of interpreting some of the quran's verses? And its no doubt that a lack of a derfinate forbiddance of slavery would allow for it to continue. I dont see why you would slam me or anyone else for pointing out that fact.[/quote]
Here it is again, abdullah. I trust that you've already read my stance on the bible quite a few times, so if youre going to continue and ignore it, then fine. I cant stop you.
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hinduwoman
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 1092
Location: India
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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if Allah meant to do away with sex-slavery his language is very ambigious. What is wrong with a clear directive, as asked by so many. After all even despised polytheists managed it before the birth of Christ. A third century B.C Indian state manual, not even a religious book, declares:
If a dasi (bonded labourer girl, which is nearly the same thing as a slave) is made to wash a naked man then the master is fined.
If the master has an affair with a dasi, then the girl has the right to be free of her bond. If the girl had been a virgin, then the master must pay her in addition, a sum equal to her bond.
If the master got a dasi with child then both mother and child must be set free.
If after freedom the aforementioned Dasi continued taking care of the master's household, then if any member of her family were bonded, they must also be set free.
No ambiguity, just simple clearcut sentences which no one can misinterpret. And no one has to do it slowly either. If mere humans who had never heard of Allah can do this, why not Allah?
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Chingachook
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Ye ..... Wise AbdullahNor! I think you're quoting the Gospel out of context here. If you read further down you'd have noticed that the law here means The Ten Commandments which Jesus have even simplified to just ONE, "Love Your Neighbour As Yourself"
(We have valid reason when we say Muslims quote the Bible out of context. This is because the format of the Gospel is just like a story or a history book. You have to look at the whole passage before you can understand what it means. The verses of the Quran, on the other hand, are haphazardly arranged)
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You know not what you talk about. Quoted out of context? Just the ten commandments? Funny how that argument is always used by defenders of the Christian faith, whenever I highlight those verses!
Ten commandments are found in Exodus Chp 20. But the laws Jesus talked about covered MORE than just ten commandments. Here it is what is like, further down. Look at the words in bold.
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5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
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Law on divorce? That is not found in the ten commandments! It is found here
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Deuteronomy 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
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Carry on reading from there. You will see it is a law on divorce and is part of the old law.
So was Jesus just referring to the ten commandments? Let us continue with what Jesus meant in the old law, which must not be changed one bit.
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5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
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Eye for an eye? Is that law part of the ten commandments?
Here is where that law came from.
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Exodus 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot
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Read the passages before and after that verse above. See if it really is part of the old law or not.
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5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
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Love thy neighbour? Is that part of ten commandments? Here is where that law came from.
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Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
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Again read the verses before and after that and see if it is part of the old law or not.
So did Jesus just talked about the ten commandments? Or did he mean ALL OLD LAWS?
Once again, note how you defend the Bible even when it explicitly propagates sex slavery, yet attack the Quran relentlessly!
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!”  |
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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5 pages and more than 100 posts, yet still no condemnation on the Bible, THE REAL PROPAGATORS OF SEX SLAVERY, but full of bile and hate for Islam!
Crow, your stance on the Bible is just an excuse for you not to condemn it. You are just giving an excuse to condemn Islam, but not the real propagator of sex slavery. You used sex slavery to achieve your means. That is the hypocrisy I am referring to.
Hinduwoman, I see you came here and are quick to condemn Islam on sex slavery. But like the others, you let the REAL PROPAGATOR, that is the Bible, off the hook!
As to explicit verses, well, maybe you can help Bob and Egyptian Kafir with their hesitation. You see, EK placed explicit verses that eradicated gambling and intoxicants side by side, with verses on sex slavery. I believe his argument is that if there were explicit verses on the former two, then the absence of explicit verses to eradicate sex slavery meant no eradication of sex slavery.
I asked EK, and then Bob who tried to back EK up, in more detail. They appear hesitant. Now that you talk about explicit verses and meanings, perhaps you would like to assist them. So here is the same question I posed to EK, then Bob, but received no firm reply.
Q4. Hence EXPLICIT VERSUS ARE OF IMPORTANCE TO YOU?
If yes, say so in simple English and we will continue to discuss, based on that principle you are supposed to uphold, ie placing importance on explicit verses, in comparison with those without explicit verses.
If no, then why bring up the point of the importance of being explicit?
Let me forewarn you if you do not already know my style. I have shown Muslim haters here that, I will ask them to use their past arguments to support their future ones. A few of them have fallen flat. That included EK and Bob. That could well explain their hesitancy now. So think carefully before you answer my question.
On the other hand, if you do not answer, then I will take that you have no intention to further your argument or challenge my statements on who the real propagator of slavery is and/or Islam’s treatment of slaves. That means any further arguments you put up, would be with the intention to flood and drown my main point – that is, the Bible is the real propagator of sex slavery, but Muslim haters place the blame on Islam!
If you notice, other than EK and Bob, all other posters do nothing than to flood. I hope you are not one of them. You can remove my suspicions about you by answering the above.
According to Yusuf Ali, 4:25 is meant to free slaves.
I said this before and I will say it again. Note the hypocrisy of Muslim haters who use sex slavery to slime Islam. If they really are concerned about the women slaves, they would condemn the real preachers of sex slavery, that is THE BIBLE, and praise Islam for the positive steps to eradicate sex slavery.
So here it is one more time.
The Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery. Muslim haters DO NOTHING to oppose it.
The Quran sets up steps in stages to end sex slavery. This is evident in 4:25, as according to Yusuf Ali. Yet, Muslim haters DO ALL THEY CAN to slime Islam.
The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy found in those who hate Muslims and Islam!
So indeed, this is a hate site!
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| abdullahnoor wrote: | 5 pages and more than 100 posts, yet still no condemnation on the Bible, THE REAL PROPAGATORS OF SEX SLAVERY, but full of bile and hate for Islam!
Crow, your stance on the Bible is just an excuse for you not to condemn it. You are just giving an excuse to condemn Islam, but not the real propagator of sex slavery. You used sex slavery to achieve your means. That is the hypocrisy I am referring to. |
Alright, fine. If it shuts you up, I'll say this: The bible is full of contradictions and primitive rules. I'd never want to become a christian. There, happy? Now stop labeling me a bigot and hypocrit and let it be.
As I have said before, the bible is NO MORE NOBEL than the quran. I know you think the quran is most noble (duh), but as I dont, in fact I think it is a tool for oppression and the control of people minds, then most certainly saying the bible is no better than it is a slam indeed! Get over it! Your accusations and assumptions of me are totally unfounded. I know myself better than YOU ever will.
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Student
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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5 pages and more than 100 posts, yet still no condemnation on the Bible, THE REAL PROPAGATORS OF SEX SLAVERY, but full of bile and hate for Islam!
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Abdullah, just for the record, why don't you tell us how many slaves and sex-slaves did "pro-slavery" Jesus Christ bought, sold, owned and enslaved?
How many Jihads were led or encouraged by Jesus, to encourage his followers to fight others, to pillage their lands for plunder and slaves?? If you could name all these in detail (with concrete proof), you would be scoring a big plus for Islam, by convincing many here that Christianity and the Bible promotes and propagates slavery.
On the other hand, while you are insisting that Islam made gradual steps to eradicate slavery, the founder of Islam, Muhammad was an unrepentent slave owner and slave trader. He fought wars where he enslaved others. There was no sign in Muhammad's life to even suggest that he was against slavery. Why should he be? Muhammad had lots of vested interests in the slave-trade; free source of income, labour and sex, both for himself and devout Muslims.
Needless to say, Muslims NEVER ended slavery on their own accord, or in accordance to the Quranic teachings (if any). Why should they, when the Best Muslim had shown in his own personal conduct that Allah approves of slavery and sex-slavery? No, slavery in the Islamic world was put to an end by non-Muslims, NEVER by Muslims themselves.
So, here is it from me again:
Islam propagates sex slavery. Muhammad, the founder of Islam and consider by all Muslims as the Best Muslim and Prophet, was a man who kept slaves and enslaved others. He was an unrepentent slave trader and owner. Muhammad the Best Muslim never once felt apologetic or remorseful for owning slaves or selling people into slavery
It is quite obvious that rather than banning sex slavery, Islam gives slavery and sex slavery the thumbs up!! Just check out the resume of Muhammad the Best Muslim!!
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Chingachgook
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 261
Location: White Eagle Land
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| abdullahnoor wrote: | Chingachook
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Once again, note how you defend the Bible even when it explicitly propagates sex slavery, yet attack the Quran relentlessly! |
Alright,alright.... so Jesus was referring to more than just the 10 commandments, but the main theme was about The 10 Commandments was it not? Also nothing was said about slavery!
Thus THE LAWS which Jesus meant was ALL those that followed from verse 18!
But then again how do you account for Jesus's non-participation and non-showing of the examples Himself, I mean His non-recognition (or indifference) to such rituals as animal sacrifices, Sabbath, etc? How do you account for His over-all teaching, purposes, accomplishments?
Yes the Bible (Old Testament) had stories about slavery, if that will make you one bit happy! The BIG difference is, it has been done away with! Kaput! Nehi! Non! Tarak!! Tidak ada!!! .... 
WHILE IN YOUR SO-CALLED ULTIMATE BOOK, THE (NOT SO) HOLY QURAN, THE DAMN THING IS STILL THERE! IT was practised by your prophet, in stark defiance of Jesus's non-approval. His followers flocked to him (Mo) in droves because of the prospect of having free, sanctioned sex! Can you see this? Mo should have done better than Jesus if he were to outdo Jesus. He should have ABOLISHED SLAVERY, he should not have ambushed and attacked caravans, bla..bla..bla.....
Can you see this, even if Christians of Mo's time (and later) practised slavery, the truth was that THEY WERE WRONG! They ran foul of the teachings of Jesus.
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Who else but Big Chief Chingachgook, lover of Ham !  |
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Egyptian Kafir
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Slave of allah keeps babbling..
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Yes in stages! All were banned in stages! But it was YOU who put up VERSES of those three.
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You asked me whats my point of linking What you claim of banning slavery on stages to The actual banning of other things in stages, so I brought you what you have done yourself before linking them together.
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So how do the verses of the three vices show that only gambling and intoxicants were banned IN STAGES, but slavery was not banned in stages? That is my question to you |
My question to you Is How Can slavery Be banned on stages Like The other things that Actually got banned on stages when we see the following:
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This is a commentary on Issues Islam Has actually Elimenated in stages :
Drinking:
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1- first, allowing while explaining its bad sides:
"They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit."
2- then a Prevention from praying while drunk :O ye who believe! approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say.
3-Then, TOTALLY PROHIBITING DRINKING:
:O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan's handiwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
4- Was Drinking allowed and Active in the Islamic State after muhammad's Death? NO.
Gambling:
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1- first, allowing while explaining its bad sides: "They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit."
2- Then, TOTALLY PROHIBITING GAMBLING:
:O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan's handiwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
3- Was Gambling owed and Active in the Islamic State after muhammad's Death? NO
Now, What About our issue,
seX WITH SLAVES?
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1- total Allowing :
who abstain from sex; Except from their wives or whom their right hands possess, for (in their case) they are free from blame. (23:5-6)
and
And those who guard their private parts (chastity).) (30. Except from their wives or their right hand possessions -- for (then) they are not blameworthy
(70:30)
2- Prevention in a certain case: ???
3- Total Prevention : ???
4- Was Slavery allowed and Active in the Islamic State after muhammad's Death? YES
Oh, Verse 4:25 You Say?? Lets see what It Says:
"[b]those who do not have the means Wherewith to wed free believing women, They may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess.
 Prevention Of Sex With Slaves? NO..Not anywhere in the verse.
An order To All muslims Marry All Slaves? Duh, NO.
An order That Abrogates Having sex with slaves and Marry them instead ? No, this verse Talks to a certain Case of muslims, and its not even an order for them, it says : they MAY
Will This affect the whole sex slavery REGIME? NO.
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Q4. Hence EXPLICIT VERSUS ARE OF IMPORTANCE TO YOU?
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yes, Just as it did with the other things It banned (haram) on stages through abrogation, or on one stage.
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During early times, when the Prophet (p) was around, sex with slaves was still allowed. That was why Muhammad (p) said no coitus interruptus. |
He did not dissalow it, he said "its better that you dont do it" and in another Hadith He allowed it:
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Sahih muslim Book 8, Number 3383:
Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported that a man came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: I have a slave-girl who is our servant and she carries water for us and I have intercourse with her, but I do not want her to conceive. He said: Practise Pulling out if you like, but what is decreed for her will come to her. The person stayed back (for some time) and then came and said: The girl has become pregnant, whereupon he said: I told you what was decreed for her would come to her.
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There you go again! Crafting and twisting! Putting words into other people’s mouths. |
lol, Slave of allah is getting lost here screaming "Crafting and twisting".. when we point on how sex slavery was practiced in the islamic world for 13 centuries, it wasent you who screams that we should not use what muslims do to accuse islam with? then you are implying that those muslims (after the time of muhammad) are doing things that is contray to islamic teachings.
did not islam ban drinking? You can easily prove to me from islamic scripture that muslims who lived after the time of muhammad and Drink are infracting islamic orders and commiting haram by doing this.
did not islam ban riba? You can easily prove to me from islamic scripture that muslims who lived after the time of muhammad and commit riba are infracting islamic orders and commiting haram by doing this.
did not islam ban gambling? You can easily prove to me from islamic scripture that muslims who lived after the time of muhammad and gamble are infracting islamic orders and commiting haram by doing this.
DID NOT ISLAM BAN SEX SLAVERY? SO PROVE FROM ISLAMIC SCRIPTURES THAT MUSLIMS WHO LIVED AFTER THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD AND HAVE SEX WITH THEIR SLAVES ARE INFRACTING ISLAMIC ORDERS AND COMMITING HARAM BY DOING THIS!
this is my challenge to you..can you refute it?
No single order in islam Ever prohibited or banned sex slavery
Sex slavery Was Active In Islam for 13 Centuries
Yet Muslims Claim that Islam stopped sex slavery!
The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy and lieing found in Muslims !
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“The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.” ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes |
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Isn’t it amazing how Muslim-haters scream, shout, yell and throw temper tantrums like five year olds, when they have problems addressing the real issue?
Ah, the relentless twister Egyptian Kafir is still at it. He does about anything and everything, except answering the issue – WHICH HE HIMSELF brought up. The issue of linking the verses of gambling, drinking and sex slavery!
So into the records of EK, he has scored another point in his disfavour, that is - using a certain argument, which he is not willing to back up. Let us see how he twists this latest argument of his!
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You asked me whats my point of linking What you claim of banning slavery on stages to The actual banning of other things in stages, so I brought you what you have done yourself before linking them together.
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I linked gambling, drinking and slavery as vices that were gradually eradicated. You on the other hand, linked explicit verses of gambling and drinking with versus of slavery!
Now note the very subtly carved twist you made below!
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My question to you Is How Can slavery Be banned on stages Like The other things that Actually got banned on stages when we see the following:
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That is YOUR JOB. I NEVER linked the explicit versus of gambling and drinking with slavery. YOUR JOB is to show the RELEVANCE of linking explicit verses of gambling and drinking with slavery, to support eradication of gambling and slavery were in stages, while it did not apply to slavery!
YOU placed the explicit verses of drinking and gambling with slavery, YOU tell me what is the relevance. I never compared the explicit verses there!
So are you going to tell me the importance of explicit verses as you have linked or not? Here it is again.
Q4. Hence EXPLICIT VERSUS ARE OF IMPORTANCE TO YOU?
If yes, say so in simple English and we will continue to discuss, based on that principle you are supposed to uphold. If no, then know that you have just flooded this thread with yet another irrelevant point of yours, that is linking the verses of drinking and gambling with sex slavery! Just like what you did for the buying of sex slaves in the market case, just like the harisa case, just like the riba case, just like the link you retracted after you gave it to me.
If you don’t answer the above, then you will be showing everyone here that you just put up yet another decoy, to detract and flood. Just like what you did with the harisa issue, riba issue, buying slaves off market issue, Hafsa Al Sharmut issue and the retraction of argument by Islam Online issue. You are making my job easier, proving that you are out to slime Islam.
So are you going to answer the above, which is YOUR argument?
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lol, Slave of allah is getting lost here screaming "Crafting and twisting".. when we point on how sex slavery was practiced in the islamic world for 13 centuries, it wasent you who screams that we should not use what muslims do to accuse islam with? then you are implying that those muslims (after the time of muhammad) are doing things that is contray to islamic teachings.
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Oh yes twister. The links given by bob and Crog concern slaves from Morocco and Sudan. Huh? You don’t see the problem? But during Muhammad’s time the slaves under the Muslims were in Arabia! So unless you are saying that these slaves in Arabia in 700 AD somehow did manage to keep reproducing for 1400 years, and then became Moroccans and Sudanese, I think you will have a problem here. Because we know that upon pregnancy by their masters, the slaves go free. So the only way for them to remain as slaves for generations after generations the last 1400 years, is that the slaves reproduce among themselves.
Do you have data to show that these Moroccans and Sudanese are the direct descendants of slaves 1400 years ago during Muhammad’s time? You don’t? Then why assume?
Now if they are NOT the descendants of the slaves 1400 years ago, it would mean that these women would have been snatched from freedom. That is definitely not allowed in Islam. That is the point I am saying to Crog and Bob. That they should not judge what Muslims do, but what Islam teaches instead!
So are you willing to show data these Moroccans and Sudanese are the direct descendants of the slaves 1400 years ago? If not, then once again, know that the above argument presented by Crog and Bob, and now used by you, is just another irrelevant piece of flooding!
As for the challenge you issued, let us take one step at a time. You have been known to retract whenever I showed you are wrong. I don’t want it to happen again and again and again. The latest attempt yet, is the linking of explicit verses! Let us settle Q4 first OK? Because if you don’t, then it only shows that you are flooding with irrelevant points.
Must I remind everyone here about the harisa issue, riba issue, buying slaves off market issue, Hafsa Al Sharmut issue and the retraction of argument by Islam Online issue, and that every time you ADD A NEW ARGUMENT, YOU DID NOT SETTLE THE PREVIOUS ONES because your arguments are nothing more than flooding to detract?
Student
Muslims never believe that Moses or Jesus taught such atrocities. Muslims always maintain Jews and Christians twist their books to serve their own needs. However, twisting scriptures is not the issue now. The issue is that in the Bible, it has explicit teachings of sex slavery. The question therefore is why do you condemn Islam, when it is shown very clearly where the real source of sex slavery is from?
Crow
You have to do better than just putting up cosmetics. Your one sentence “condemnation” on the Bible is hardly a pinprick compared to the vicious shelling you have been giving Islam for days. I know it is difficult to hide hypocrisy.
According to Yusuf Ali, 4:25 is meant to free slaves.
I said this before and I will say it again. Note the hypocrisy of Muslim haters who use sex slavery to slime Islam. If they really are concerned about the women slaves, they would condemn the real preachers of sex slavery, that is THE BIBLE, and praise Islam for the positive steps to eradicate sex slavery.
So here it is one more time.
The Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery. Muslim haters DO NOTHING to oppose it.
The Quran sets up steps in stages to end sex slavery. This is evident in 4:25, as according to Yusuf Ali. Yet, Muslim haters DO ALL THEY CAN to slime Islam.
The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy found in those who hate Muslims and Islam!
So indeed, this is a hate site!
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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Ampbreia
Joined: 10 Oct 2002
Posts: 476
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 8:17 am Post subject: Abdullahnoor |
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Well hello there Broken Record, SLAVE of Darkness...
You write (over, & Over, & OVER again):
| Quote: | | The Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery. Muslim haters DO NOTHING to oppose it. |
1. Many of us so-called "Muslim Haters" as you insist on calling all and sundry, do not happen to revere the Bible. There are many other religions, philosophies, and non-religions in the world, you know. You presume too much.
2. I understand WHY you presume too much. I've seen Islamic jurists and students alike arguing over everything from social conduct to science. They use Koran as the end word on everything they want to propose or expound on. To the rest of the world, this is a bit amazing. Your average Christian may reference the Bible (usually the old testement) once in a while, but they certainly don't base all of their arguments and decisions on it. They are actually more likely to reference practical experience, history, psychology, and science first. The one thing in which they share some similarity with you is that they will sometimes try to make the modern theories of cosmology and evolution match the description of creation in Genesis of the Old Testment. They never really succeed, but they never really give up on it either, refusing to admit that creationism is at odds, or at least not in synch, with the findings of modern science. It's funny and endearing at the same time. It's the heart of faith in an otherwise rational mind.
3. Why should Christian or other non-Muslims for that matter do ANYthing to oppose the propagation of sex slavery in the Old Testement? What are we supposed to do? Re-write history? Simply put, the Old Testement IS history to us. It is NOT the daily guide book to us that the Koran is to you. Do you understand? We accept that the Old Testement is a history of primitives with limited intelligence, barbaric ways, and a long way to go to evolve into civilized beings. They are not what we ARE; they are what we WERE when not much higher than an ape on the scale of civilization. We have evolved. We have expunged ALL slavery from our societies and have certainly not used the Old testements of primitives to do so.
| Quote: | | The Quran sets up steps in stages to end sex slavery. This is evident in 4:25, as according to Yusuf Ali. |
It completely failed to do this, because in Muslim countries to this day, the most faithful hardliner Muslims are also the most barbaric. They have not yet evolved. They are still looking to the Koran for ALL guidance and when the Koran fails to actually forbid slavery, they then assume that slavery must be okay. We, on the other hand, have realized on our own that slavery is an evil worse than any other vice. A slaver is worse than a drug addict, a murderer, a drunk, a whore, a rapist... worse even than the Muslim view of a pig in our eyes.
| Quote: | | Yet, Muslim haters DO ALL THEY CAN to slime Islam. |
Uh-huh. Keep telling yourself that. It's not we who slime Islam. Ironically enough, it is Muslims like you that do it. Are you a slaver yourself that you seem to be defending slavery via the device of trying to distract our attention from the fact of it existing in Islamic societies... in Saudi Arabia, in Sudan....?
Aren't you ashamed of yourself for making truly good-natured Muslims look bad by your representing Islam so badly, so LOUDLY, so foolishly. The good people in Islam DO NOT deserve that. |
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scepsis
Joined: 10 Nov 2002
Posts: 647
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:48 am Post subject: |
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[quote="abdullahnoor"]they should not judge what Muslims do, but what Islam teaches instead!
It is curious: on the one hand, we have people whose ancestors have been moslem for thirty or forty generations, raised in a moslem environment, imbibing islam with their mothers' milk, one might say, and still, "what Muslims do" is not "what Islam teaches". It would seem that "what Islam teaches" is neither persuasive nor practical. However, abdullahnoor, a convert, raised with an unislamic way of thinking, desperate for belief, possibly not a native speaker of arabic, is an expert on "what islam teaches." I am sorry, but I think that "what Muslims do" probably reflects "what Islam teaches" much better than what abdullahnoor says "Islam teaches".
As to the bible and the torah, there are all sorts of stupid and disgusting things in them: where else did Mahomet come up with the vile idea of a god which plays with people as a cat plays with a mouse? However, jews and christians do not feel obliged to justify everything in them, so some of them can abandon these things. A moslem must believe everything in the koran, no matter how disgusting and absurd, so they must struggle to justify the unjustifiable. It is a credit to your humanity, if not to your sense, abdullahnoor, that you produce this nonsense about liberation through copulation. As I asked, just how long would it take for all slaves to be freed using this method? |
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Student
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Abdullah,
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Student,
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Muslims never believe that Moses or Jesus taught such atrocities.
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You are contradicting yourself. You had argued in many of your posts, that Jesus had come to uphold laws on sex-slavery and slavery, along with other archaic OT laws.
It's a pity that even Jesus' enemies (the pharases and sadduccees) don't agree with your point. They were the champions and upholders of the OT laws, and were very zealous and strict with regards to the adherance of such laws.
Yet, their hatred for Jesus, to the extent of wanting to harm him, was pretty open. I am not sure if that is the way the Pharasees would treat someone who was here to uphold the archaic OT laws.
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Muslims always maintain Jews and Christians twist their books to serve their own needs. However, twisting scriptures is not the issue now.
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Please show us EXACTLY which verses were twisted. At the same time, please show us what the REAL (or ORIGINAL) verses should be read as.
As for dishonesty with regard to twising of books and words, I think I have seen more Muslims lying as far as religion is concerned. Muhammad himself had encouraged his men to lie too, to further the cause of Islam. Wasn't it by an Allah-sanctioned deceit that a very devout Muslim managed to get pass security and help assasinate someone whom Muhammad hated?
| Quote: |
The issue is that in the Bible, it has explicit teachings of sex slavery. The question therefore is why do you condemn Islam, when it is shown very clearly where the real source of sex slavery is from? |
The Bible to the Christians is the written word of God, and the life of Jesus to them is the living word of God. (Whether the Christians follow the character of Jesus is another issue altogether. But the standard has been set by Jesus Christ)
And as you had argued, Jesus had come to fulfill the law, not to destroy them. So, if the Bible truly preached and encouraged sex-slavery, then why do we not find Jesus running around enslaving people, keeping and buying of slaves and sex-slaves? Also, the apostles, whose lives were deeply impacted by Jesus, were neither slave traders nor owners of sex-slaves.
One reason why I condemn Islam is because of the behaviour of Muhammad the Best Muslim, the man who brought Islam and the man whom Muslims regard as a prophet and a role model for Islamic living. The Quran is the written word of Allah, and the life, character and behaviour of Muhammad (the last Messanger of Allah) is the living word of Allah. Muhammad's life is the Quran (and Islam) put in practice.
Muhammad in his life-time, was an unrepentent slave owner and trader. He had fought wars and enslaved others, for sale or for his own uses. As a result, Muslims through
the centuries feel that is it not unIslamic to keep slaves, or to enslave others. You may point to verse in the Quran to show how Islam laid down steps to eradicate slavery. I, on the other hand, will point to you the behaviour of Muhammad the slave owner and slave trader.
You have seen the results for yourselves. Slavery was NEVER eradicated in the Islamic world because Muhammad himself was a slave owner and trader. For Muslim authorities to voluntarily outlaw slavery would also imply that Muhammad was morally wrong to have played an active role in the slave trade. That is political suicide, and also grounds for execution for "insulting Islam" or "blasphemy".
No, slavery in the Islamic world was eradicated officially by pressure from non-Muslims, and NOT by Islamic goodwill or Quranic teachings.
| Quote: |
So here it is one more time.
The Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery. Muslim haters DO NOTHING to oppose it.
The Quran sets up steps in stages to end sex slavery. This is evident in 4:25, as according to Yusuf Ali. Yet, Muslim haters DO ALL THEY CAN to slime Islam.
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And yet again from me:
Islam propagates sex slavery. Muhammad, the founder of Islam and consider by all Muslims as the Best Muslim and Prophet, was a man who kept slaves and enslaved others. He was an unrepentent slave trader and owner. Muhammad the Best Muslim never once felt apologetic or remorseful for owning slaves or selling people into slavery
It is quite obvious that rather than banning sex slavery, Islam gives slavery and sex slavery the thumbs up!! Just check out the resume of Muhammad the Best Muslim!!
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Karin
Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 727
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:19 am Post subject: |
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This thread is a broken record. Abdullahnoor, you keep saying "all you can do is defend the Bible, etc." I frankly don't see much of that on this thread. You asked for condemnation of sex slavery in the Bible. Fine. Here it is, and I think I speak for all decent people on this forum:
All forms of slavery, sex or otherwise, is wrong and evil and to be condemned and outlawed in all cases. I don't care what book says what about it. The Bible must not be from God, either, because he would never want his creations enslaved.
OK?
_________________
"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of those who would deny us happiness" |
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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[/quote]Crow
You have to do better than just putting up cosmetics. Your one sentence “condemnation” on the Bible is hardly a pinprick compared to the vicious shelling you have been giving Islam for days. I know it is difficult to hide hypocrisy. [/quote]
Oh please! If I'm saying that I think the bible is no more nobel than the quran, then all those slams against islam would apply equally to the bible, DUH!
Get it through your thick head already!
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Let me address a few points before going to the main point.
Student, Muslims NEVER believe the Bible is the word of God. If we don’t follow the Bible, we are justified. It is not our scriptures. But if Christians don’t follow the Bible? Now it is clear in the Bible, Jesus said ALL OLD LAWS BE FOLLOWED. Is that not affirmation that the Bible expects old laws, including slavery to be followed?
As for the half baked, half hearted, no commitment “condemnation” of the Bible by some Muslim-haters, that I am sure you know is nothing more than cosmetic. Compare that “condemnation” to the full blast and slime of your attacks on Islam. As I said, it is difficult to hide hypocrisy, isn’t it?
Now for the main points.
This thread does not only sound like a broken record, it has also broken down. I will summarise the important main points.
I started this thread with the intention to show the real propagators of sex slavery – the Bible. The response was the Quran and Islam got attacked! Strange but not so strange. Strange because there is no logic to attack another teaching, while the original teacher of sex slavery is responsible. Not so strange because this site is designed for Muslim-haters to do exactly what they have been doing!
What Muslim-haters have done is to find means, ways and a thousand reasons to attack Islam. Sex slavery is just one of them. Hence, the intended agenda, Islam bashing, has always been there. The only ingredients missing were the support statements. Muslim-haters employ a “strike now, find statements of support later” stance. Hence, the sliming of Islam and the convenient linking of sex slavery to the Quran, but leaving the Bible unscathed!
This “strike now, finds statements of support later” presents a problem. The problem of inconsistency, twists, turns, backtracking and hesitancy. Hence, we find the likes of Egyptian Kafir, Bob and Hinduwoman very hesitant to back up what they claim, when I ask them to do so.
We also find the likes of Crow, Student and a few others, who throw personal insults and tantrums, because they struck first, but now have difficulties in supporting their statements.
Finally, we also have the bystanders who could not standby for long, like Amp, Karin, scepsis, who have to chip in, because the earlier “regulars” of this thread too have been grappling to find support of their strikes.
Face Muslim-haters, you came here to slime Islam. You didn’t come here to learn. Hence you would do ANYTHING to slime Islam, even when it is clear the real perpetrator is the Bible!
So I would draw my conclusion in this thread the same way I have done in others. To Muslim haters, the slime on Islam and Muhammad (p) must carry on. As it was with the Aisha case, the “paedophile” tag must live, hence the very vehement efforts to keep it alive. As with the Zaynab case, the “lust” tag must live, hence the very vehement efforts to keep it alive. And as with the Mary of Copt and this case, the “sex slavery” tag must live, hence the very vehement efforts to keep it alive. Never mind the real propagators of sex slavery is from Christianity!
The above is why Muslim-haters give arguments only to retract them when it works against them. It also makes these Muslim-haters to scream, shout, yell, level abusive language, put up floods and a whole host of other undesirable actions. Why? Because the main intention of them being here is to slime Islam. Period. That is the reason why issues are NEVER ADDRESSED. In this case, the issue is that real a propagator of sex slavery, that is the Bible, goes off scot-free, while Islam takes the flak!
I will stop the broken record here because there really is nothing new that has been added to this thread the past few days. I really would like to move onto another topic. However, I am sure, Muslim-haters being Muslim-haters, would not let this thread or issue rest.
As I said, to Muslim-haters, the “sex slavery tag” on Islam must live on!
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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I do not have any trouble backing up my statements. Thats your problem. I react that way when you accuse me of being a heartless, ignorant bigot, which I am not. If you dont want a dog...or rather, raptor to bite, dont corner it and poke it with a stick.
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Student
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Abdullah,
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Student, Muslims NEVER believe the Bible is the word of God. If we don’t follow the Bible, we are justified. It is not our scriptures.
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Fair enough. And likewise, Christians and Jews NEVER believe that the Quran is the word of God either. The Quranic teachings are not their scriptures either.
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But if Christians don’t follow the Bible? Now it is clear in the Bible, Jesus said ALL OLD LAWS BE FOLLOWED. Is that not affirmation that the Bible expects old laws, including slavery to be followed?
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So what's your point? You are unhappy that Christians today aren't following their scriptures in enslaving people like what Muslims want to do??
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We also find the likes of Crow, Student and a few others, who throw personal insults and tantrums, because they struck first, but now have difficulties in supporting their statements.
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Me difficulty in proving my case????
As for you harping that Jesus said "ALL OLD LAWS ARE TO BE FOLLOWED" matra, you have yet to prove your case.
1. For a guy whom you insisted that he championed the cause of old laws (on slavery and sex-slavery), Jesus never bought, sold or kept slaves and sex-slaves. Unless you can show me the role Jesus played in the slave trade (either as a buyer, seller, owner or middle-man), your claim that the Bible supports sex-slavery is very weak. From what I see here, while most forummers openly discredit the Bible and are repulsed by the violence and brutality in many parts of the OT, hardly any here (am I correct??) had found fault with the morale standards set by Jesus' preaching and behaviour.
2. For a person who supposedly championed the old laws, Jesus was targetted by the Pharasees and Sadduccess, all of whom were very very devout followers and upholders of the old laws.
Maybe Abdullah was onto something that those Pharasees missed. Anyway, why would the zealots of the old laws want to kill a man who is supposedly by Abdullah's argument, here to support to old laws??
3. The strictest adherence of the OT Mosaic laws today are the Jewish people and the strict followers of Judaism. I don't seem to know of Rabbis keeping of sex-slaves. And they are the experts on the Mosaic law, not you. Perhaps you have some info on this to support your claim that the the OT laws support sex slavery.
And for a religion that supposedly supports sex-slavery, the Jewish nation of Israel treats people with more dignity than the Muslim-Arab nations do.
4. You claimed that the Bible is twisted by Jews and Christians. No doubt, this claim originated from Muhammad, who had to discredit the first two monothestic faith, in order to validate his own one. But unfortunately, you have yet to show us here which verses are twisted, and what the real (or uncorrupted) verses should be read as.
Sex-slavery originated (or supported) from Christianity??? You surely must be kidding!! The main man in Christianity, Jesus Christ, was never a slave owner, trader or seller. He was also not a middle-man in the slave trade. If Jesus really came to support the OT laws (which includes slavery according to you), then he must really be a lousy teacher. His closest disciples seemed to have missed your brilliant points too. None of them kept or bought slaves either!!
Sex-slavery and slavery allowed in Islam? Definitely!! Just look at the life of Muhammad, the main man of Islam. He was a slave trader and slave owner, and he enslaved others in wars he fought, and you don't seem to have any problems with that, Abdullah. |
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Egyptian Kafir
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Isn’t it amazing how Muslim-haters scream, shout, yell and throw temper tantrums like five year olds, when they have problems addressing the real issue?
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lol..thats coming from the person who use huge fonts to scream the same paragraph in every post
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So are you going to tell me the importance of explicit verses as you have linked or not? Here it is again.
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I already answered you dumbass in my previous post..what? are you avoiding it on porpose?
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I linked gambling, drinking and slavery as vices that were gradually eradicated. You on the other hand, linked explicit verses of gambling and drinking with versus of slavery! |
do they not share the same elements? they all talk about issues that were all
1-banned
2-on stages?
no?
or are you implying that they do not share these elements? 
and I already did my job to explain why your verse is not a last stage sex slavery banning verse in any way:
| Quote: |
Verse 4:25
"those who do not have the means Wherewith to wed free believing women, They may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess.
Prevention Of Sex With Slaves? NO..Not anywhere in the verse.
An order To All muslims Marry All Slaves? Duh, NO.
An order That Abrogates Having sex with slaves and Marry them instead ? No, this verse Talks to a certain Case of muslims, and its not even an order for them, it says : they MAY
Will This affect the whole sex slavery REGIME? NO.
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| Quote: |
But during Muhammad’s time the slaves under the Muslims were in Arabia! So unless you are saying that these slaves in Arabia in 700 AD somehow did manage to keep reproducing for 1400 years |
is the slave resource in your opinion slave reproduction??? ever heared of the terms : "slave trading" "slave importing" "taking war captives"
duhhhhh..
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Because we know that upon pregnancy by their masters, the slaves go free. |
we know that? where is that? did not see it anywhere in the quran on hadiths.
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As for the challenge you issued, let us take one step at a time.
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Let us settle Q4 first OK? Because if you don’t, then it only shows that you are flooding with irrelevant points.
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I already answered that question in my previous post and you avoided it ..
did not islam ban drinking? You can easily prove to me from islamic scripture that muslims who lived after the time of muhammad and Drink are infracting islamic orders and commiting haram by doing this.
did not islam ban riba? You can easily prove to me from islamic scripture that muslims who lived after the time of muhammad and commit riba are infracting islamic orders and commiting haram by doing this.
did not islam ban gambling? You can easily prove to me from islamic scripture that muslims who lived after the time of muhammad and gamble are infracting islamic orders and commiting haram by doing this.
DID NOT ISLAM BAN SEX SLAVERY? SO PROVE FROM ISLAMIC SCRIPTURES THAT MUSLIMS WHO LIVED AFTER THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD AND HAVE SEX WITH THEIR SLAVES ARE INFRACTING ISLAMIC ORDERS AND COMMITING HARAM BY DOING THIS!
this is my challenge to you..can you refute it?
No single order in islam Ever prohibited or banned sex slavery
Sex slavery Was Active In Islam for 13 Centuries
Yet Muslims Claim that Islam stopped sex slavery!
The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy and lieing found in Muslims !
[/b]
_________________
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Last edited by Egyptian Kafir on Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hahahahaha! Look at who is playing the broken record! As I said, the slime must live on! Well, if you want to continue, I can continue for a little while longer. After all, I am not quite ready to start my new topic
Student
I have told you Muslims never believe Jesus taught that. But you really cannot deny the Bible is the one that propagates slavery!
Egyptian Kafir
Ah, so the twister is here again. Are you not a little too old for temper tantrums? Awww…. I know you have problems answering my questions. Questions pertaining to harisa, riba, buying slaves off the market, Hafsa Al Sharmut, retraction of your earlier arguments, and now explicit versus pertaining to gambling and drinking.
Now take a deep breath and relax. How do you feel now? Better? Sorry but I ran out of sweets.
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I already answered you dumbass in my previous post..what? are you avoiding it on porpose?
do they not share the same elements? they all talk about issues that were all
1-banned
2-on stages?
No?
or are you implying that they do not share these elements?
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Nope, you have not answered. Is that a yes or a no? I want to hear it FROM YOU. Because if I don’t hear it from YOU, you will RETRACT LATER, like what you have ALWAYS DONE.
So once again, my child,
Q4. Hence EXPLICIT VERSUS ARE OF IMPORTANCE TO YOU?
If yes, say so in simple English and we will continue to discuss, based on that principle you are supposed to uphold. If no, then know that you have just flooded this thread with yet another irrelevant point of yours, that is linking the verses of drinking and gambling with sex slavery! Just like what you did for the buying of sex slaves in the market case, just like the harisa case, just like the riba case, just like the link you retracted after you gave it to me.
If you don’t answer the above, then you will be showing everyone here that you just put up yet another decoy, to detract and flood. Just like what you did with the harisa issue, riba issue, buying slaves off market issue, Hafsa Al Sharmut issue and the retraction of argument by Islam Online issue. You are making my job easier, proving that you are out to slime Islam.
Alternatively, I can assume that your answer is “yes”. But I will hold you to that principle of using EXPLICIT VERSES to show that something did happen, against no explicit verses means it did not happen, against you in your future and past arguments. Agreed?
Whatever your decision, DO NOT BACK OUT LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING. Agreed?
I WILL ADDRESS YOUR CHALLENGE IN DUE TIME. I just want to make sure you don’t twist, turn and retract your arguments you use now, when they work against you later. Agreed?
Do we have a deal?
Now here is some money. Go but yourself some candy and cool yourself down.
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 7:01 am Post subject: |
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YES, explicit verse ARE important, because then there would be no argument that slavery is allowed in islam. But because there is no verse condemning slavery in the quran, then slavery would and did continue throughout the islamic world.
By the way, abdullah, accusing Egyption Kafir of being childish really isnt going to solve anything. Its no better than accusing me of being a heartless, ignorant bigot. Dung slinging indeed! If you dont want the crap thrown at you, dont start a sh*t fight!
Another thing: I second the notion that you amuse us by trying to refute EK's challenge! Good luck!
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scepsis
Joined: 10 Nov 2002
Posts: 647
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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A few questions, abdullahnoor. You probably won't answer them, but...
A female slave can acquire her "freedom" by letting her owner fuck her and get her pregnant and/or marry her. What choice does she have? What can her owner do to her, as punishment, under islamic law, if she rejects or resists this? Does the owner have the right to rape her- or, rather, commit what would be rape if she weren't a piece of property- if she is so foolish as to reject his very reasonable offers?
You say that this would lead to the abolition of slavery. How long, do you think it would have taken before slavery vanished using this method?
Why didn't Mahomet, if he disapproved of slavery (except slavery to his idea of god) simply announce a time after which no slaves could be taken?
If "what Islam teaches" is so good, why is "what Muslims do" so bad an example? When did "what Muslims do" stop being a good example to the rest of us? |
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