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Unknown 210
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 10
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 Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:44 pm Post subject: But of coarse, you know better.. |
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1-A book has been published recently in America titled (The 100), or the greatest hundred in history, by Michael H. Hart, described as a historian, mathematician, and astronomer. Examining the most influential men throughout history.
He put Jesus as no 3, Isaac Newton as no 2, and Mohamed As no 1 ! he noted:
(My choice of Mohamed to lead the list of the worlds most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful (On both the religious and secular level).
2-In the world famous (Time) July 15- 1974 under the title(What makes a good leader?) a variety of historians, writers, military men, business man ..etc were asked.
As many mentioned Mohamed, Jules Masserman, a U.S psychoanalyst (Jewish by the way) stated that leaders must fulfill 3 function:
1-provide for the well being of the led.
2-provide a social organization in which people feel secure.
3-provide people with one set of belief.
finally , he said:
Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohamed, who combined all three functions.
3-(Mohamed was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him).
A Hindu scholar- (The prophets of the east)
4-(Four years after the death of Justinian A.D 569 was born at Makkah, in Arabia The man who, of all men exercised the greatest Influence upon the human race.. Mohamed )
John William Draper- (A history of the intellectual
Development of Europe)
5-(I Doubt whether any man whose external conditions changed so much ever changed himself less to meet them)
R.V.C Bodley-(The messenger)
6-(I Have studied him- the wonderful man- and far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the saviour of humanity)
George Bernard Shaw- (The genuine Islam)
(if Muhammad were alive today, he would succeed in solving all those problems which threaten to destroy human civilization in our times).
George Bernard Shaw
7-(By a fortune absolutely unique in history, Mohamed is a threefold founder of a nation, of an empire, and of a religion.
R.Bosworth_(Mohammed and Mohammedanism)
8-(Mohamed was the most successful of all religious characters)
Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition
9-(The lies which well-meaning zeal has heaped around this man, are disgraceful to ourselves only)
Thomas Carlyle
10-(It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher).
Annie Besant, THE LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF MUHAMMAD, Madras ,1932, p. 4.
11-(But do you mean to tell me that the man who in the full flush of youthful vigour, a young man of four and twenty (24), married a woman much his senior, and remained faithful to her for six and twenty years (26), at fifty years of age when the passions are dying married for lust and sexual passion? Not thus are men's lives to be judged. And you look at the women whom he married, you will find that by every one of them an alliance was made for his people, or something was gained for his followers, or the woman was in sore need of protection).
Dr Annie Besant (Dr. Annie Besant in 'The Life and Teachings of Mohammad,' Madras, 1932)
12-(His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad).
W. Montgomery Watt, MOHAMMAD AT MECCA, Oxford, 1953, p. 52.
13-(No great religious leader has been so maligned as Prophet Mohammed. Attacked in the past as a heretic, an impostor, or a sensualist, it is still possible to find him referred to as "the false prophet." A modern German writer accuses Prophet Mohammed of sensuality, surrounding himself with young women. This man was not married until he was twenty-five years of age, then he and his wife lived in happiness and fidelity for twenty-four years, until her death when he was forty-nine. Only between the age of fifty and his death at sixty-two did Prophet Mohammed take other wives, only one of whom was a virgin, and most of them were taken for dynastic and political reasons. Certainly the Prophet's record was better than the head of the Church of England, Henry VIII).
Geoffrey Parrinder, Mysticism in the World's Religions (New York: Oxford University Press, 1976, pg. 121
14-(Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about A.D. 570 into an Arabian tribe that worshipped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy, the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. At twenty, he was already a successful businessman, and soon became director of camel caravans for a wealthy widow. When he reached twenty-five, his employer, recognizing his merit, proposed marriage. Even though she was fifteen years older, he married her, and as long as she lived, remained a devoted husband).
Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word, sensing his own inadequacy. But the angel commanded "Read." So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God.
In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumours of God's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, "An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being." "At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: "If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever).
James A. Michener, "ISLAM: THE MISUNDERSTOOD RELIGION," in READER'S DIGEST (American edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70.
15-(It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved, after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran. . . The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith an devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God' is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honours of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion).
Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay, HISTORY OF THE SARACEN EMPIRE, London, 1870, p. 54.
16-(He was Caesar and pope in one, but he was the pope without the pope’s pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar:
Without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; If ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohamed for he had all the powers without its instruments and without its supports).
R.Bosworth_(Mohammed and Mohammedanism)
11-(If greatness of purpose,
smallness of means ,
and astounding results
are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Mohamed?
The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only.
They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes.
This man Mohamed moved not only armies, legislations,
Empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men; and more than that the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls.
On the basis of a book, every letter of which has become law.
He created a spiritual nationality which blended together
peoples of every tongue and of every race ..
The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed admist the exhaustion of fabulous theologies, was in itself such a miracle that upon its utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient superstitions.
His endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death: all these attest not to an imposter but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not.
PHILOSOPHER , ORATOR, APOSTLE, LEGISLATOR, WARRIOR, CONQUEROR OF IDEAS, RESTORER, OF RATIONAL BELIEFS, of a cult without images;
The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one
Spiritual empire, that is Mohamed. AS REGARDS
ALL STANDARDS BY WHICH HUMAN GREAT-
NESS MAY BE MEASURED, WE MAY WELL
ASK, IS THERE ANY MAN GREATER THAN HE?)
Lamartine- (Histoire de la Turquie)
ABOUT THE SWORD CASE..
1-(The sword indeed, but where will you get
your sword! Every new opinion at its starting,
is precisely in a minority of one.
In one mans head alone, there it dwells
As yet. One man alone of the whole world
Believes it; There is one man against all men.
That he take a sword, and try to propagate
With that, will do little for him.
You must first get your sword!
On the whole world, a thing will propagate
Itself as it can. We do not find, of the
Christian religion either, that it always
Disdained the sword, when once it had
One. Charlemagnes conversion of the
Saxsons was not by preaching)
Thomas Carlyle_(Heroes and Hero-Worship)
2-(The more I study the more I discover
that the strength of Islam does not lie
in the sword)
Mahatma Ghandi
3-(They(Mohammed's critics) see fire instead
of light, ugliness instead of good.
They distort and present every good quality
As a great vice. It reflects their own depravity.
The critics are blind. They cannot see
That the only sword Mohamed wielded
Was the sword of mercy, compassion,
Friendship and forgiveness-The sword
That conquers enemies and purifies their
Hearts. His sword was sharper than
The sword of steel).
Pandit Gyanadra Dev Sharma
4-(He preferred migration to fighting
his own people, but when oppression
went beyond the pale of tolerance
he took up his sword in self-defense.
Those who believe religion can be
Spread by force are fools who neither
know the ways of religion nor the
ways of the world. They are proud
of this belief because they are a long,
long way from the truth).
A Sikh journalist in(Nawan Hindustan)
5-(History makes it clear however, that
the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping
through the world and forcing Islam
at the point of the sword upon conquered
races is one of the most fantastically
absurd myths that historians have
ever repeated).
De Lacy O'Leary_(Islam at the crossroads)
6-(The city which had treated him so
cruelly, driven him and his faithful
band for refuge among strangers,
which had sworn his life and the lives
of his devoted disciples, lay at his
feet. His old persecutors relentless
and ruthless, who had disgraced
humanity by inflicting cruel
outrages upon inoffensive men
and women, and even upon the
lifeless dead, where now completely
at his mercy. But in the hour of
his triumph every evil suffered
was forgotten, every injury
inflicted was forgiven, and a
general amnesty was extended
to the population of Makkah).
Sayed Amir Ali _(The spirit of Islam)
7-Indonesia, Malaysia, middle
and south Africa have a vast number
of Muslims, yet no Muslim soldier have ever
set foot there.
Today, Islam is the world’s fastest growing
religion, the Moslems have no sword. |
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adnan
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hassan | Quote: | | Islam is the world’s fastest growing religion |
Fastest growing?
"667 muslims/hour are converting to christianity"
http://forum.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=61353#61353
| Quote: | As many mentioned Mohamed, Jules Masserman, a U.S psychoanalyst (Jewish by the way) stated that leaders must fulfill 3 function:
1-provide for the well being of the led.
2-provide a social organization in which people feel secure.
3-provide people with one set of belief. |
Reason 1 is wrong. Mohammed has led to the suffering of more than 1 billion people (not counting the muslims in history), as well as the suffering of 5 billion other non-muslims.
Reason 2 is wrong. I am an apostate of Islam, I left Islam and I dont feel secure.
Reason 3 is not valid because Mohammed didnt do a great job by declaring all other religions as false and his own Islam, as the true religion.
Islam is a not a religion from God, but a lie from Mohammed.
Adnan
(former muslim) |
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CroMagnon
Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 2112
Location: West Kafiristan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: But of coarse, you know better.. |
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| Hassan wrote: | 1-A book has been published recently in America titled (The 100), or the greatest hundred in history, by Michael H. Hart, described as a historian, mathematician, and astronomer. Examining the most influential men throughout history.
He put Jesus as no 3, Isaac Newton as no 2, and Mohamed As no 1 ! he noted:
(My choice of Mohamed to lead the list of the worlds most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful (On both the religious and secular level).
|
Michael H. Hart wrote:
| Quote: |
On the field of battle, though, the inspired Arabs rapidly conquered all of Mesopotamia, Syria, and Palestine. By 642, Egypt had been wrested from the Byzantine Empire, while the Persian armies had been crushed at the key battles of Qadisiya in 637, and Nehavend in 642.
But even these enormous conquests-which were made under the leadership of Muhammad's close friends and immediate successors, Abu Bakr and 'Umar ibn al-Khattab -did not mark the end of the Arab advance. By 711, the Arab armies had swept completely across North Africa to the Atlantic Ocean There they turned north and, crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, overwhelmed the Visigothic kingdom in Spain.
For a while, it must have seemed that the Moslems would overwhelm all of Christian Europe. However, in 732, at the famous Battle of Tours, a Moslem army, which had advanced into the center of France, was at last defeated by the Franks. Nevertheless, in a scant century of fighting, these Bedouin tribesmen, inspired by the word of the Prophet, had carved out an empire stretching from the borders of India to the Atlantic Ocean-the largest empire that the world had yet seen. And everywhere that the armies conquered, large-scale conversion to the new faith eventually followed.
Muhammad, however, was responsible for both the theology of Islam and its main ethical and moral principles. In addition, he played the key role in proselytizing the new faith, and in establishing the religious practices of Islam. Moreover, he is the author of the Moslem holy scriptures, the Koran, a collection of certain of Muhammad's insights that he believed had been directly revealed to him by Allah. Most of these utterances were copied more or less faithfully during Muhammad's lifetime and were collected together in authoritative form not long after his death. The Koran therefore, closely represents Muhammad's ideas and teachings and to a considerable extent his exact words.
In fact, as the driving force behind the Arab conquests, he may well rank as the most influential political leader of all time. ....
Nothing similar had occurred before Muhammad, and there is no reason to believe that the conquests would have been achieved without him. ....
We see, then, that the Arab conquests of the seventh century have continued to play an important role in human history, down to the present day. It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history. |
So Michael H. Hart sees Mohammed as the author of the Quran and as a very succesfully conquering warlord.
That's why he choose Mohammed as the no. 1 ....
And that's something muslims cheer about...? 
  
"Michael Hart, a kafir historian, chose our peaceful prophet as the number one succesfull conquering warlord and he chose the messenger of Allah as the number one influential author for writing Allah's Quran! Hurrayyyy!"
(That's more or less the same as FFI says btw: author of the quran, succesful conquering warlord.... )
Kafir historian Michael Hart commits blasphemy against the prophet and the quran .... and immediately the muslims get all carried away by this number 1 stuff... what a mindboggling confusion...
_________________
Sheikh Ahmad al Kat'ani:
"every hour 667 muslims are converting to christianity" |
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yeezevee
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 2300
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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dear Hassan greetings from yeezevee, good to hear your thoughts about how great Mohammad was and how many people showered their praise on him for the past 1440 years., That is indeed nice, but let us think a bit
| Quote: | | 1-A book has been published recently in America titled (The 100), or the greatest hundred in history, by Michael H. Hart, put Jesus as no 3, Isaac Newton as no 2, and Mohamed As no 1 ! he noted: |
And Michael Hart didn't convert to Islam
| Quote: | ... Jules Masserman, a U.S psychoanalyst (Jewish by the way) stated that leaders must fulfill 3 function:
1-provide for the well being of the led.
2-provide a social organization in which people feel secure.
3-provide people with one set of belief.
finally , he said:
Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohamed, who combined all three functions... |
Jules Masserman may have said that, but Masserman doesn't follow ISLAM., By The way, I too agree Mohammad was great leader among Arabians at that time., But you got go much further to prove HIM as a PROPHET, Prophet for all mankind and Prophet for ALL TIMES.
| Quote: | -(Mohamed was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him).
A Hindu scholar- (The prophets of the east) |
Hindu Scholar probably is still HINDU or died as HINDU, and Ususally Hindus and Hindu Scholars don't read History,. They just believe in what is told..
John William Draper, R.V.C Bodley, George Bernard Shaw, R.Bosworth, Annie Besant, Mahatma Gandhi., etc, etc.. didn't convert in to ISLAM and preach Islam.. Don’t you wonder a bit about it? If Islam Is SO GOOD religion why these gentlemen didn't convert in to Islam and preach and propagate ISLAM??
Any welcome to FFI friend, read a bit around, air your views often and let your friends and well-wishers know about this forum.
with best regards
yeezevee |
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affaf
Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | As many mentioned Mohamed, Jules Masserman, a U.S psychoanalyst (Jewish by the way) stated that leaders must fulfill 3 function:
1-provide for the well being of the led.
2-provide a social organization in which people feel secure.
3-provide people with one set of belief.
finally , he said:
Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohamed, who combined all three functions. |
Usually I am after sistery religion of Islam, christianity and its declining adherents,
When I read about those 3 great qualities of a leader, The great Chengiz came to my mind, in his life time Chengiz achieved much more than Mohammed in terms of leadership and
and Chengiz was truely secular, Mohammed was a just robber. chengiz was much smarter than Mohammed, only difference is Chingiz couldn't find caves in Mongolia to hide in them and tell people he found stupid god. Chengiz knew he was bad, he was just cruel not a psychopath, but Mohammed was a true psycopath. |
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MarkT
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 1152
Location: On the globe that gave me birth-the cool green hills of Earth
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:57 am Post subject: Ah ha, but of course! |
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| Quote: | A book has been published recently in America titled (The 100), or the greatest hundred in history, by Michael H. Hart, described as a historian, mathematician, and astronomer. Examining the most influential men throughout history.
He put Jesus as no 3, Isaac Newton as no 2, and Mohamed As no 1 ! |
How astonishing, will wonders never cease.
| Quote: |
Today, Islam is the world’s fastest growing
religion, the Moslems have no sword. |
Sufferin' succotash, what am I waiting for?
Ashahadu an la ilaha ill Allah wa ashahadu anna Muhammadar Rasulullah!
_________________
"—to find one's happiness in truth, to oppose illusion, to value integrity above God, and character above salvation." |
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Farside
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 324
Location: The Other Side
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 8:21 am Post subject: Talkative Links |
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Mark T, your links are awesome! You’ve opened a whole new realm of possibilities for the farside – talking links or perhaps talking posts! 
Farside  |
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MarkT
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 1152
Location: On the globe that gave me birth-the cool green hills of Earth
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Unknown 210
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:31 am Post subject: |
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Adnan..
> Fastest growing?
> "667 muslims/hour are converting to christianity"
From 1934, to 1984, Christianity had a growing rate of 138% while Islam had 235%. That is according to (The World Almanac and book of Facts, 1935) and (The Reader's Digest Almanac and Yearbook, 1983)
Islam is also the fastest growing faith in Britain and USA.
>Reason 1 is wrong. Mohammed has led to the >suffering >of more than 1 billion people (not >counting the muslims >in history), as well as >the suffering of 5 billion other >non-muslims.
>Reason 2 is wrong. I am an apostate of >Islam, I left >Islam and I dont feel secure.
>Reason 3 is not valid because Mohammed >didnt do a >great job by declaring all other >religions as false and his >own Islam, as the >true religion.
These were not reasons, these were criteria which the U.S psychoanalyst put to evaluate leaderships. And he found that Mohammad applied them all.
I assume you spent a lot of time asking the opinion of 6 billion persons. Well, at least I am not suffering, and the great thinkers who made these statements did not seem to suffer either.
Plus, Mohammad did not declare all religions false.
Do you know what does the Qor'an say about Jesus and Mary? And what does Jews say about them?
CroMagnon..
Didn't you notice that I deliberately quoted non-Muslim figures? I realize many of them did not approve the validity of the Qor'an or the prophet hood of Mohammad.
To me, this makes their positive statements unbiased and more accepted by other non-Muslims.
Muslims have always quoted the Quraish pagan enemies of Islam in order to state that Mohammad was declared El sadeq el ameen (the honest, the trustworthy) by his future enemies before the revelation.
What if I quoted Muslim thinkers praising Islam? Would that be more convenient to people in here?
Yeezevee..
>..good to hear your thoughts about how great Mohammad >was..
Were any of these MY thoughts, yeezevee?
>John William Draper, R.V.C Bodley, George Bernard >Shaw, R.Bosworth, Annie Besant, Mahatma Gandhi., etc, >etc.. didn't convert in to ISLAM and preach Islam.. Don’t >you wonder a bit about it? If Islam Is SO GOOD religion >why these gentlemen didn't convert in to Islam and preach >and propagate ISLAM??
You are right, they did not, that is why I chose to quote them. (see my answer to CroMagnon).
But many other thinkers, and scientists, did in fact convert to Islam, which is still the fastest growing faith.
>By The way, I too agree Mohammad was great leader >among Arabians at that time.
You TOO agree? That is not exactly what the man said, is it? He said Mohammad was the greatest leader of ALL times.
And by the way, instead of wondering why didn’t these people embraced Islam, why don't you tell me,
why would they make such statements in the first place?
Affaf..
About the three criteria of leadership mentioned by Jules Masserman -the U.S psychoanalyst:
-provide for the well being of the led.
-provide a social organization in which people feel secure.
-provide people with one set of belief.
Masserman analyzed people like Louis Pasteur, Salk, Gandhi, Confucius, Alexander the Great, Caesar, Buddha, Jesus, and Hitler.
Masserman stated:
(People like Pasteur and Salk are leaders in the first sense.
People like Gandhi and Confucius, on one hand, and Alexander, Caesar and Hitler on the other, are leaders in the second and perhaps the third sense. Jesus and Buddha belong in the third category alone.
Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohamed, who combined all three functions. To a lesser degree Moses did the same.)
> Mohammed was a just robber
If you read carefully all the quotations I posted, -let alone having any knowledge of Mohammad- I very much doubt you would have made such an irresponsible statement.
Everyone..
Did you read the whole thing?
If you did, why then do you concentrate on the leadership of Mohammad?
Muslims do not view Mohammad merely as a leader. Plus the statements quoted emphasize his greatness in various other aspects.
May God guide us all..
Peace. |
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EigenVektor
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:54 am Post subject: Re: But of coarse, you know better.. |
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| Hassan wrote: | 1-A book has been published recently in America titled (The 100), or the greatest hundred in history, by Michael H. Hart, described as a historian, mathematician, and astronomer. Examining the most influential men throughout history.
He put Jesus as no 3, Isaac Newton as no 2, and Mohamed As no 1 ! he noted: |
so? many say he was a sick bastard.
| Quote: |
2-In the world famous (Time) July 15- 1974 under the title(What makes a good leader?) a variety of historians, writers, military men, business man ..etc were asked.
As many mentioned Mohamed, Jules Masserman, a U.S psychoanalyst (Jewish by the way) stated that leaders must fulfill 3 function:
1-provide for the well being of the led.
2-provide a social organization in which people feel secure.
3-provide people with one set of belief.
finally , he said:
Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohamed, who combined all three functions.
|
So? Germans thought Hitler was some kind of a Messiah. Even Time Magazine gave him the title "Man of the year 1938"
Muslims and Nazis have something in common, you know. |
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adnan
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Hassan | Quote: | | These were not reasons, these were criteria which the U.S psychoanalyst put to evaluate leaderships. And he found that Mohammad applied them all. |
Ali Sina is the Irani psychoanalyst. Would you beleive what people say if they had credentials? Do you want me to bring you what other psychoanysts have said? Why doesnt your US psycho. come and talk to us, so we can tell him the realities of Mohammed? Why didnt the US psychoanylyst label Mohammed as a Pedophile? He was obviously not aware of Aisha, his little child bride, either that or he intentionally ignored her.
So please dont bring the quotes of that US psychoanalyst here, unless he himself can defend them, otherwise I'll do the same and bring you more accurate quotes.
| Quote: | | From 1934, to 1984, Christianity had a growing rate of 138% while Islam had 235%. |
That didnt refute what I gave you - the 667 muslims leaving Islam every hour.
| Quote: | | Mohammad did not declare all religions false. |
Read the Quran, Muslim.
Quran 3:85: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
Is that not equivalent to saying that all religions other than Islam are false and wrong?
If I say "If anyone marries Hassan, she will burn in Hellfire".
What does that say about you?
| Quote: | | Do you know what does the Qor'an say about Jesus and Mary? |
Quran is one rotten apple.
| Quote: | | And what does Jews say about them? |
Judaism is another rotten apple.
The point is: All religions are false and creations of men.
Adnan |
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Unknown 210
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:17 am Post subject: |
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[Ali Sina is the Irani psychoanalyst. Would you beleive what people say if they had credentials?]
what about the other quotes?
Plus, I am not asking you to believe anything. I posted these quotes to point out that serious studies should be made in order to judge Islam.
If these great thinkers said that, then you ought to think twice before making absurd statements about Islam and Mohammad (like the one you just said).
[That didnt refute what I gave you - the 667 muslims leaving Islam every hour.]
Islam is the world's largest growing faith. Refute this.
I did read the Qor'an. But did you know what does the word (Islam) mean?
According to the Qor'an, every true religion from God is Islam.
This once applied to Judaism and Christianity, Moses and Jesus are described as Muslims in the Qor'an. But their today's scriptures are not the same genuine ones revealed on them.
About all religions are false, I assume you do not believe in God.
If that is true, your problem is much worse than just rejecting Islam
But I believe that is another issue. |
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adnan
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Hassan
I'll bring the quotes soon for you.
| Quote: | | I posted these quotes to point out that serious studies should be made in order to judge Islam. |
Well then say "Eureka" because this website, FFI, is a serious study of Islam. Have you read the articles section? And the others as well?
| Quote: | | Islam is the world's largest growing faith. Refute this |
Fine I'll refute that: Islam is not the world's largest growing faith. Refuted? Why dont you refute: Islam is a false religion created by Mohammed, the false prophet. Refute THIS.
| Quote: | | According to the Qor'an, every true religion from God is Islam. |
My own religion "Pikachooism" is also Islam then?
Every true religion from God is Islam? Which ayat is that? Only ONE "true" religion from God accepts that Mohammed was a messenger! And this is a basic beleif of Islam, as you know. Any religion that doesnt agree that Mohammed was a messenger, is not Islam, obviously! That means any religion other than Islam is not Islam, since it doesnt beleive in the basic philosophy of Islam and the follower of that religion will burn in Hellfire.
If that follower was following "Islam", why should he burn in Hell? (see Quran 48:13).
| Quote: | | About all religions are false, I assume you do not believe in God. |
WRONG assumption! You need classes in logic. Could it not have been that God chose not to "reveal" any message to mankind?
One can believe in God without believing in any religion. They all might be from false prophets. But coming back to the point, I'm agnostic and leaning towards athiesm.
| Quote: | If that is true, your problem is much worse than just rejecting Islam
But I believe that is another issue. |
Whats the other issue?
Adnan |
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Unknown 210
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Muslims and Nazis have something in common, you know |
I heard this before. And I had the same subject discussed with someone else, and no prove was given..
| Quote: | | Well then say "Eureka" because this website, FFI, is a serious study of Islam. Have you read the articles section? And the others as well? |
I disagree about this site. However, I mean in person, an individual has to study with open heart and mind, then decide.
| Quote: | | Fine I'll refute that: Islam is not the world's largest growing faith. Refuted? Why dont you refute: Islam is a false religion created by Mohammed, the false prophet. Refute THIS. |
Funny your idea of refutation.
You did not refute anything. I gave you numbers.
| Quote: | My own religion "Pikachooism" is also Islam then?
Every true religion from God is Islam? Which ayat is that? Only ONE "true" religion from God accepts that Mohammed was a messenger! And this is a basic beleif of Islam, as you know. Any religion that doesnt agree that Mohammed was a messenger, is not Islam, obviously! That means any religion other than Islam is not Islam, since it doesnt beleive in the basic philosophy of Islam and the follower of that religion will burn in Hellfire.
If that follower was following "Islam", why should he burn in Hell? (see Quran 48:13). |
A true religion -Islam- is believing in one God,the angles, the scriptures and all the prophets, this includes not only Mohammad, but also Ibraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus..etc.
The proof is that in various occasions in the Qor'an, the prophets and their devoted followers are described as Muslims.
I hope that's clear.
| Quote: | WRONG assumption! You need classes in logic. Could it not have been that God chose not to "reveal" any message to mankind?
One can believe in God without believing in any religion. They all might be from false prophets. But coming back to the point, I'm agnostic and leaning towards athiesm. |
Wha | Quote: | | ts the other issue? |
I ASSUMED, I didn't DEDUCT. Big defference.
So, you "believe" in a God who doesn't really bother.
I have alot to discuss, about the existence of God, and the prophet hood in general, if you like. But this forum, is dedicated to Islam. |
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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:00 am Post subject: |
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Adnan wrote:
| Quote: | | Well then say "Eureka" because this website, FFI, is a serious study of Islam. |
Assalamu Alaikum Adnan,
Adnan, if you are ever without employment you should approach one of the big circus when comes to your town. As a clown you will make so many people laugh at the seriousness you take of yourself and FFI as part of any study of Islam. I can guarantee that you will be hired on the spot for your natural ability to spontaneously make people laugh. Judging by the rate you are going you’ll never run out of fresh jokes.
| Quote: | | That means any religion other than Islam is not Islam, since it doesnt beleive in the basic philosophy of Islam and the follower of that religion will burn in Hellfire. |
The Quran goes to grate lengths to describe other prophets and religions without denouncing any of them. Muslims and non-Muslims have known and accepted this fact for centuries. Nevertheless, there are people like you who could not see the truth in the text and go on forever denouncing it based on that very inability to see/read/comprehend for themselves.
Wassalam |
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adnan
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Stopnot, | Quote: | | I can guarantee that you will be hired on the spot for your natural ability to spontaneously make people laugh. Judging by the rate you are going you’ll never run out of fresh jokes. |
i doubt you meant that honestly, but if you did, oh well, thanks. but yes, i AM able to be very funny when i'm in a good mood. but at that time, the one who laughs the most is me.
| Quote: | | The Quran goes to grate lengths to describe other prophets and religions without denouncing any of them. |
yes, but if you follow their message and not Mohammed's, you'll burn in Hellfire.
If you dont beleive mohammed was a messenger, you'll burn in Hellfire. How hard is that to understand, StopNot? The next ayat 48:14 is a contradiction and I told you there has to be a consistent rule of judging someone.
I asked you but you didnt answer as usual because you didnt know the answer:
What is the Criteria for a person to deserve Heaven?
"Its for Allah to decide" - this means "I dont know, we dont know"
How could Allah send a message to Humanity without telling them what was the key to get into Heaven? How could he not tell the humans how to get into Heaven? Was'nt this important information?
Last edited by adnan on Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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adnan
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Hassan,
you wanted quotes.
Einstein: "I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own--a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty." [4, p.6]
There are more, Said Karl Marz, "religion is the opium of the masses"
etc.etc! you can find famous people to say anything you want.
| Quote: | Funny your idea of refutation.
You did not refute anything. I gave you numbers. |
you're right, you gave me numbers but I gave them too. Here's what I've said many times before to others: Fire, Aids, Flu, Weeds and Islam are all fast growing stuff. Does that mean its all nice?
So, the logic that someone grows very fast, does not mean its right.
| Quote: | | A true religion -Islam- is believing in one God,the angles, the scriptures and all the prophets, this includes not only Mohammad, but also Ibraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus..etc. |
Right. the only true religion is ISLAM, the one that came 1400 years ago, not any others, nor any group.
You said before: According to the Qor'an, every true religion from God is Islam.
And I proved to you that, according to Islam, the only true religion is Islam. There is only one religion that beleives that Mohamemd the liar was a prophet. Hence all other religions other than Islam are not Islam, whether they are "true" or not.
| Quote: | | So, you "believe" in a God who doesn't really bother. |
We have to prove that a message was really from God and not from a false prophet. If you start out with "God MUST have revealed SOMETHING" - thats wrong to say, you're assuming things.
| Quote: | | I ASSUMED, I didn't DEDUCT. Big defference. |
Thats what I said, you assumed.
| Quote: | | I have alot to discuss, about the existence of God, and the prophet hood in general, if you like. But this forum, is dedicated to Islam. |
I'm the true last prophet of God. Listen to me. Go to the Atheism folder if you want to discuss about God.
Adnan |
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Unknown 210
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:25 am Post subject: |
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adnan
You got me wrong.I didn't ask for quotes. I realize there are numerous philosophers and scientists against religion as a concept (although the pro-religious are more, especially from scientists).
I agree, being the fastest growing does not prove validity.
I pointed this fact just to state that Islam does not depend on military force to prevail. That's all.
| Quote: | Right. the only true religion is ISLAM, the one that came 1400 years ago, not any others, nor any group.
You said before: According to the Qor'an, every true religion from God is Islam.
And I proved to you that, according to Islam, the only true religion is Islam. |
adnan, I thought I was clear.
According to the Qor'an..Noah, Ibraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, and all prophets, were calling to one religion,that is mainly the unity of God.
Every nation has recieved some guide. Some we know and some we don't.
This guide (religion)may slightly differ in rituals or laws -according to many circumstances, but still the same in essence.
This means, an african tribesman who never heard of Jesus or Mohammad, but happen to worship one mighty and merciful God, I would not hesitate to call him a Muslim.
But..
The only modern religion who stands uncorrupted in scripture, and meant to be international to all human kind, is the religion revealed to Mohammad. The Qor'an is God's last words to humanity.
| Quote: |
I'm the true last prophet of God. Listen to me. Go to the Atheism folder if you want to discuss about God. |
This is not my idea of a suitable way to start a fruitful discussion.
I am not sure if you are really interested in a serious talk. |
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yeezevee
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 2300
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Hassan: ...The only modern religion who stands uncorrupted in scripture, and meant to be international to all human kind, is the religion revealed to Mohammad. The Qor'an is God's last words to humanity. |
Greeting Hassan and How would you go in proving the above assumption dear Hassan? Qur'an is after all book, many not even sure that it was written during the Mohammad's time and why would Qur'an be the God's last words to humanity? Just because Qur'an says SO??
You have to read and realize much of the Qur'an is a copy paste from other scriptures of Mohammad time that were there around Arabia. Whatever is not a copy paste is the CONTRIBUTION OF MOHAMMAD"S 13 years of preachings at the end of his life.
The man started his Islamic quest in the name of Allaha after the death of his first wife Khadija when he was close to 50 years. In the next 13 years the married 13 women and 13 more concubines and had as many wars. The Man and his followers destroyed the cultures and countries what was there around Arabian Desert. Also, In those last 13 years he was getting revelations from Allaha to control his wives and the innocent folk of around him., Why would this God has to choose this Man as the messenger to all humanity for all times dear Hassan?
with best regards
yeezevee |
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adnan
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:52 am Post subject: |
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Hassan | Quote: | | According to the Qor'an..Noah, Ibraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, and all prophets, were calling to one religion,that is mainly the unity of God. |
| Quote: | This is not my idea of a suitable way to start a fruitful discussion.
I am not sure if you are really interested in a serious talk. |
I want you to prove that Mohammed was not a false prophet.
Adnan |
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Unknown 210
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:38 am Post subject: |
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yezevee
| Quote: | | Greeting Hassan and How would you go in proving the above assumption dear Hassan? Qur'an is after all book, many not even sure that it was written during the Mohammad's time and why would Qur'an be the God's last words to humanity? Just because Qur'an says SO?? |
As a start, let's agree on the fact that the Qor'an -whether you believe or disbelieve in it- WAS written in the time of Mohammad. I never saw a decent researcher who denies this simple fact.
| Quote: | | You have to read and realize much of the Qur'an is a copy paste from other scriptures of Mohammad time that were there around Arabia. Whatever is not a copy paste is the CONTRIBUTION OF MOHAMMAD"S 13 years of preachings at the end of his life. |
That's not true, yezevee.
Because number one, a simple historical fact that Mohammad was illiterate. You won't deny that.
Therefore -being a faker- he would have needed someone who is expert with the contents of the other scriptures, knowledgable with their languages, plus Arabic, and to accompany him for the rest of his life
(for Mohammad kept recieving revelation for the rest of his life).
This expert never existed. (where there any Arabic translations for the scriptures at that time?)
Number two, Islam has many common points with Christianity and Judaism. That's true and actually natural if you consider they have the same source. Haven't Jesus stated that he didn't come to abolish the laws of Moses?
But saying that much is a (copy paste) is completely inaccurate. Or else please point out to me that "much".
But.. Islam has also many differences (or corrections) to these religions. One example is declaring Jesus completely as a human prophet, another is blaming the Jews accusing Mary, and for hiding the Torah away from the people.
But you are calling the common points as (copy paste).
And calling the differences as (Mohammad's contributions).
Let me ask you, if Islam came with completely irrelevant or contradictive book to previous scriptures. Would that be more convenient to you?
| Quote: | | The man started his Islamic quest in the name of Allaha after the death of his first wife Khadija when he was close to 50 years. In the next 13 years the married 13 women and 13 more concubines and had as many wars. The Man and his followers destroyed the cultures and countries what was there around Arabian Desert. Also, In those last 13 years he was getting revelations from Allaha to control his wives and the innocent folk of around him., Why would this God has to choose this Man as the messenger to all humanity for all times dear Hassan? |
Many mistakes, yezevee..
1-Mohammad started recieving revelation before the death of Khadija, in fact she herself embraced Islam. He was about 40 not 50.
2-In the next 13 years, (until he reached 53) he :
-never married again.
-never had any war.
In fact he spent 13 years in peaceful preaching, undergoing many aggression, and oppression, from the heads of Quraish.
(Jesus had to endure this for only 3 years)
3-Only when he was about 53, the wars started (in self defence).
and his marriages in which every single marriage had a religious, social, or political reason.
4-When "the man" was dead the Muslim lands had not exceeded Arabia.
So I wish you reconsider what you said about him destroying the neighbouring cultures.
5-You don't assume that Mohammad -while claiming the revelations- had the power to control, with the sword, people around him...ALONE?.
peace.. |
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Unknown 210
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:41 am Post subject: |
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adnan and yezevee..
| Quote: | | How would you go in proving the above assumption dear Hassan? |
| Quote: | | Why would this God has to choose this Man as the messenger to all humanity for all times dear Hassan? |
| Quote: | | I want you to prove that Mohammed was not a false prophet. |
All right, I see we are getting to the point.
Can we prove Qor'an is the last word of God?
And that Mohammad is a true prophet?
I will try to answer that, but let me ask you some questions before we start:
(answer in brief if you like):
1-Do we agree that we are merely seeking the truth? If yes, this means: a- we are not enemies in some challenge, seeing who is going to "win".
b- we are ready to open our minds and hearts, and be serious and patient enough. As truth matters most. Agreed?
2-Do you believe in God? Religions? What is briefly your beliefs?
If you like, I would start by posting a new thread, titled (truth of Islam).
Peace.. |
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