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Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> Quran (errancies, miracles and science)

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muslim4ever

Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 109
Location: EGYPT

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:38 am Post subject:

arabchristian

Quote:

Daylight236 wrote:

You cant show me any Quranic verse where Allah oreded muslims to make slaves or make the war prisoners slaves.

Now let's examine what the Quran said about slaves and slavery.

"O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war.." (Quran 33:50 Pickthall Trans.)

In this verse, the "right hand possession" is mentioned as a "given from Allah," which means a "gift from Allah." This verse gives permission to have sex with slaves as if they are your wives. They are "blessings" from Allah.

And also notice the word "spoils" of war.

"Successful indeed are the believers ...... who guard their privates, except with their wives and what their right hand possess, and then they are not blamed..." (23:1-6 Darwish Trans.)

Again in this verse, Allah has equated the sex with female slaves (or captives as you call it) with the sex with wives. Muslims are NOT BLAMED for having sex with them.

"who guard their privates, except from their wives and what their right hands own, for these they are not blameworthy."(70:29-30 Darwish Trans.)

This verse is a repetition of the verse 23:6, which confirms its significance.

"O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman... "(Quran 2:178 Yusuf Trans.)

Allah here recognizes the difference between a "free" and a "slave." The law of "equality" differentiates between a slave and a freeman. This verse delivers the message that "when a slave in your army is killed, DON'T kill a freeman from the enemy in retaliation because it is not fair, you should kill (the inferior) slave instead, to be more fair."

What kind of equality is that? And if Allah really wanted to demolish slavery, why did he include a verse like this, which portrays freemen as superior to slaves?

According to this verse, and according to the "Law of Equality" that was prescribed by Allah, the blood of a freeman is more expensive than the blood of a slave.

"And (forbidden to you) are married women, except those whom your right hand owns. Such Allah has written for you." (Quran 4:24 Darwish Trans.)

Here, you can have sex with a married slave girl. And here it can very well be called "rape," because the girl is already married!

Isn't that what Allah has "written for you"?

"Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not." (Quran 16:75 Yusuf Trans.)

Even in the parables of Allah, the master and the slave are not equal.

And in the next verse:

"Allah sets forth (another) Parable of two men: one of them dumb, with no power of any sort; a wearisome burden is he to his master;whichever way be directs him, he brings no good: is such a man equal with one who commands Justice, and is on a Straight Way?" (Quran 16:76 Yusuf Trans.)

Another verse humiliating slaves, and portraying them as stupid people, burden to their masters.

In addition, the master here is regarded as a man who "commands justice" and a man who is on the "straight way."

Islam came when slavery was a widespread institution, and it sought to relieve humanity from its evils and vigorously called for the emancipation of the slaves . 'Umar once said, "How can you enslave people whereas they were born free?".

God has made freedom the natural birthright of all people. Islam, having found slavery a deeply rooted social and economic order, worked for its gradual elimination. Therefore, enslaving some war prisoners was permitted only in exceptional situations of necessity such as when the enemy enslaves Muslim prisoners, and therefore, Muslims had to reciprocate by enslaving the enemy's prisoners in order to exchange them for the liberation of Muslim slaves. Otherwise, war prisoners are to be either freed without any price or penalty or with payment of a price depending on what is best for the community in the situation. The Quran in this question, reads:"Now when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until when you have routed them, then making fast of bonds ; and afterwards either grace or ransom until the war lay down its burden". LVII, 4.

Moreover, Islam has opened many avenues for the liberation of slavery. One is that Islam has made emancipation of a slave a mandatory expiation on commitment of certain legal violations. Another avenue is that emancipation is one of the channels of dispensing of the proceedings of the zakat. A wide gate is that God has made freeing a slave one of the most charitable acts that brings a person closer to his Lord and assured him great rewards in Paradise. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, says: "Whosoever frees a slave God will free him from the punishment of Hellfire, each part of his body against its counterpart in the body of the emancipated slave."

Therefore, if we see the world having freed itself from this evil practice we realize that this was in full agreement with the teachings of Islam enlightened by its guidance and taking hints from its tenets

yours
muslim4ever

Spinoza

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:42 am Post subject:

You're quite a copy paster, shouldn't you at least acknowledge your sources?

Unknown 222

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 93

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:20 am Post subject:

MONICA wrote:

RAised a Christian, I went to church and sat and listened to what the preacher taught each Sunday. However, as time past I opened the Bible and read with meaning. I remember the first time that it struck me that Jacob did a many mean things in his life. I looked at David, the same conclusion. None of these men would I tell my child to emulate? To this day, I still see a great many people in the Bible as petty and mean spirited. Therefore, I find it sad when people, (rational people) can not say if the actions of a supposely "holy person" was less than to be desired. If anything, their actions are upheld. Now the question of slavery, was it right then? When reading my bible, I feel distaste when I read passages regarding the institution. How can someone in this day and age justify "Slavery". Hum, it makes me wonder if the strength was on the other foot, the return of slavery would not be far behind, since it is still looked upon as normal and just by those who adhere to Islam.

Islam is the religion which has abolished slavery. The credit goes to Islam. it is a fact whether you accept or not. The other thing is just a propaganda against ISlam.

DoctorNO

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 446

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:25 am Post subject:

Daylight236 wrote:

Islam is the religion which has abolished slavery. The credit goes to Islam. it is a fact whether you accept or not. The other thing is just a propaganda against ISlam.

I salute the Muslim people for abolishing slavery. However there still remains the fact that the Quran mentioned slavery without forbidding it.

Can we move on now?

Spinoza

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:27 am Post subject:

Quote:

Islam is the religion which has abolished slavery. The credit goes to Islam. it is a fact whether you accept or not. The other thing is just a propaganda against ISlam.

That's pure bullshit. Utter nonsense. Islam never abolished slavery. It even introduced slavery in areas where it had previously been unknown for centuries.

The Islamic world was the LAST to abolish slavery, some vounrties ony *officially* abolsied it in the 60s and the 70s while in Islamic countries like Sudan and Mauretania slavery factually still is a matter of everyday life.

All 100% condoned by the Quran.

Unknown 222

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 93

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:31 am Post subject:

[quote]What I meant here is that the Quran is supposed to be an eternal book, therefor its principles must conform with the fine ethical standards of today, and of all times. And because that reason, comparing what the Quran preached with the practices at the time of its revelation is very off topic. [quote] Brother Arab Christian you are false in ur conclusion. Slavery prevailed in those times not only in Arabia but in many many countries. SO it was necessary to abolish that barbaric thing. Whats wrong in that?? If you have understood(not just read but understood) Quran without any veil on your eyes you must be saying here that Quran is not better but the best book ever.

adnan

Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:34 am Post subject:

Daylight

Quote:

Brother Arab Christian you are false in ur conclusion. Slavery prevailed in those times not only in Arabia but in many many countries. SO it was necessary to abolish that barbaric thing.

Explain the following ayats:

Quote:

4.92: And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a covenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively:

16.75 Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from Ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah!

24.32: And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

[Adnan: If Islam was against slavery, it would have said so in clear terms. Instead it says "you can marry your slave".]

39.29: Allah sets forth an example: There is a slave in whom are (several) partners differing with one another, and there is another slave wholly owned by one man. Are the two alike in condition? (All) praise is due to Allah. Nay! most of them do not know.

Read the whole story about Slavery in Islam:
http://www.uq.net.au/slsoc/manussa/tr05manu.htm

Adnan
(guzishta musalmaan)

Last edited by adnan on Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

DoctorNO

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 446

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:58 am Post subject:

Spinoza wrote:

The Islamic world was the LAST to abolish slavery, some vounrties ony *officially* abolsied it in the 60s and the 70s while in Islamic countries like Sudan and Mauretania slavery factually still is a matter of everyday life.

All 100% condoned by the Quran.

really? muslims still practised slavery in the 20th century? you know a good link about that?

DoctorNO

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 446

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:01 pm Post subject:

muslim4ever wrote:

A Short List of Insults to Women in "the HOLY BIBLE "

You misinterpreted those verses, silly. Most of what youve listed are mere historical tellings, nothing to do with the christian doctrine for women. I am not a christian but I find nothing more beautiful than this Christianic doctrine...

The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. IN THE SAME WAY, the husband's body does not belong to him alone BUT ALSO TO HIS WIFE. Do not deprive each other except by MUTUAL consent and for a time

Husbands, love your wives, JUST AS Christ loved the church

husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies

Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them

The Invented Quran's opinion's melts like slime compared to the above verses.

Your wives are as A TILTH unto you; so approach YOUR TILTH

THEY COVET: WOMEN

Such are the POSSESSIONS

AND SCOURGE THEM

Those violent verses of the quran are the actual practised doctrine in Islam today. The muslimahs are mere possessions to be beaten if they misbehave.

Are you still sure you want to be a muslim 4ever? For your sake I hope youre not a female.

Unknown 8

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 168

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:16 pm Post subject:

Daylight,

Daylight236 wrote:

Brother Arab Christian you are false in ur conclusion.

You need to logically prove that.

Daylight236 wrote:

Slavery prevailed in those times not only in Arabia but in many many countries.

That's true, but its continued ONLY in Islamic countries.

The Middle East has imported slaves much more than the Americas and Europe all together. And as Spinoza told you, the Islamic world was the LAST place to stop this practice; the Zanzibar slave-market in Tanzania wasn't shut down until 1888, and by Christians, not Muslims. Even in the Islamic heaven, Saudi Arabia, slavery wasn't officially banned until recently at 1962. Even till this moment, Sudan and Mauretania still have slave-markets.

So please let's not go into conversation on the rest of the world.

Daylight236 wrote:

SO it was necessary to abolish that barbaric thing.

Exactly. But why didn't the Quran attack that institution? Why not even once?

Daylight236 wrote:

Whats wrong in that??

You are asking me or asking yourself?

Daylight236 wrote:

If you have understood(not just read but understood) Quran without any veil on your eyes you must be saying here that Quran is not better but the best book ever.

When I read the Quran, I didn't read it to criticise it, I read it to know how Muslims think. I read it also because I wanted to know about all religions, and Islam was the first on my list, as it is the second to Christianity.

I'm very open-minded, and if I found that the Quran was truly a Holy book, I would have converted to Islam. But honestly speaking, with no offence, the Quran was the worst book I have ever read. It's the only book that commands you to kill, rape and torture.

Whatever, let's go back to slavery.

Prove to us that the Quran intended to abolish slavery.

Regards,
AC

Unknown 8

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 168

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 11:25 pm Post subject:

Dear Mr.Tit-For-Tat (muslim4ever

),

You need to calm down...

Mr.Tit-For-Tat wrote:

my Beloved Christians " look at your Holy bible befor you Attack My holy Quraan"

This is the most rediculous illogical thing I have ever heard.

There is something you need to understand: If BOTH Islam and Christianity teach violence, then BOTH of them are nothing but violent cults.

And I don't know why you are saying "my Beloved Christians." I'm the only "Jesus-believer" over here...

It's not a war between Christianity and Islam. It's a war between Islam and common sense.

Mr.Tit-For-Tat, you are making a clown of yourself. You still didn't answer my questions. I'll repeat them again, and I added one more:

1- Do you intend to prove that both books teach violence, thus both of them are rubbish?

2- Does the supposedly "intolerant teachings" of the Bible justify the intolerance of the Quran?

3- Do you believe that a god who preach violence is a good God?

I require a simple three line answer, each line with only two or three letters..

Example:

1- Yes
2- No
3- No

Can you give me something like that?
Are those questions so difficult that you even can't say Yes or No?

This is the forth time I ask you to answer those questions. If you didn't give me an answer, I'll simply consider you a lunatic with worthless copy-pasts.

Spinoza

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 11:34 pm Post subject:

DoctorNO wrote:

Spinoza wrote:

really? muslims still practised slavery in the 20th century? you know a good link about that?

Sure,

http://www.hakimquick.com/articles7.htm
http://www.payvand.com/news/02/oct/1009.html
http://www.usis.usemb.se/human/human1999/saudiara.html

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/9912/modernholocaust.html
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/9912/easterntrade.html

muslim4ever

Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 109
Location: EGYPT

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:32 am Post subject:

"DoctorNO"

Quote:

really
you are funny....

Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you.--Judges 19:24

this is the christian doctrine.

Quote:

"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33.

Quote:

"And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26, from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament)

Reformation Fellowship of the East Valley, Mesa, AZ (circa 1995)

Quote:

"In the beginning God made man male and female. He made Adam first, and then made Eve from Adam's rib. This order of creation subordinates wives to their husbands in marriage, and women to men in the church. As an act of submission to their Creator women are commanded to submit to their husbands and to male leadership in the church. Women are not allowed to teach or have authority over men in any formal capacity in the church."

Doctor no

Quote:

Those violent verses of the quran are the actual practised doctrine in Islam today. The muslimahs are mere possessions to be beaten if they misbehave.

The Council on Biblical Manhood & Womanhood (1997)

Quote:

"...God, by creating Adam first (Gen. 2:18; 1 Cor. 11:8) and also by creating woman for man (Gen. 2:18,20,22; 1 Cor. 11:9), has set the gender-based role and responsibility of males in the most basic unit of society (the family) to be that of leader, provider and self-sacrificial protector (also cf. Eph. 5:25; 1 Peter 3:7), and likewise has set the gender-based role and responsibility of females to be that of help and nurture (Gen. 2:18) and life-giving (Gen. 3:20) under male leadership and protection (cf. 1 Peter 3:7)..."

Quote:

Are you still sure you want to be a muslim 4ever? For your sake I hope youre not a female.

yes . iwill still muslim and for ever...........

DoctorNO

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 446

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 7:04 am Post subject:

muslim4ever wrote:

Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you.--Judges 19:24

this is the christian doctrine.

The book of judges is a book of history, silly. In fact the person who said those words is just a plain old man. Not God, not a prophet, not an apostle, not a christian.

christian doctrine? HAHA! doctrine my foot. you know nothing so dont be a fool.

muslim4ever wrote:

"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33.

There is no such thing as "Ecclesiasticus", silly. The closest thing that rhymes with it is "Ecclesiastes", and it ends at chapter 12. Silly Muslim. Laughing

muslim4ever wrote:

Cant you understand words of Wisdom, silly? That verse only specifies those PARTICLUAR women whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands.

Ooh this is fun!

muslim4ever wrote:

Reformation Fellowship of the East Valley, Mesa, AZ (circa 1995)

Quote:

Ah finally something that agrees with Islam. You both agree that the leader of the family is the husband. You both agree that women cannot be priests, pastors, or imams.

muslim4ever wrote:

yes . iwill still muslim and for ever...........

Its your loss.

Unknown 222

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 93

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:17 am Post subject:

muslim4ever wrote:

A Short List of Insults to Women in "the HOLY BIBLE "

Genesis

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. -- 3:16

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, an do ye to them as is good in your eyes. -- 19:8

Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father -- 19:32

And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose -- 19:33

Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father -- 19:34

And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose -- 19:35

Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. -- 19:36

And Rachel said, Therefore he shall lie with thee to night for thy son's mandrakes. -- 30:15

Thou must come in unto me; for surely I have hired thee with my son's mandrakes. And he lay with her that night. -- 30:16
Exodus

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.--22:18

Leviticus

And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean.--15:19

And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean.--15:24

Thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.--18:19

And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged.--19:20

And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death.--20:12

If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they.--20:14

If a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.--20:16

And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.--20:18

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.--20:27

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.--.21:9
Numbers

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.--31:15-19

Deuteronomy

And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself.--20:13-14

And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her .... Thou shalt go in unto her.--21:11-13

If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated ....--21:15

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ....--22:13

I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid. Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city.--22:14-15

These are the tokens of my daughter's virginity.--22:18-21

But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.--22:20-21

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.--22:23-24

When two men strive together on with another, and the wife of the one ... putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.--25:11-12

Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her.--28:30

The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, and toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them.--28:56-57
Judges

Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be .... She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.--5:24-26

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two?--5:30

Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you.--19:24

But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning.--19:25

1 Samuel
And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies.--18:25

Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.--18:27

Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.--12:11

Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house .... So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel.--16:21-22

1 Kings

And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.--11:3

2 Kings

Therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.--15:16

2 Chronicles
And Rehoboam ... took eighteen wives, and threescore concubines.--11:21:

But Abijah waxed mighty, and married fourteen wives.--13:21
Esther

All the wives shall give to their husbands honour, both to great and small--1:20
Isaiah

Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.--3:17

Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.--13:16

Thou shalt cast them away as a menstruous cloth.--30:22

Lamentations

They have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward. Her filthiness is in her skirts.--1:8-9

Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman.--1:17

Ezekiel

Let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark.--9:5-6

Thou hast ... opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.--16:25

Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because hou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.--16:28

But if a man be just ... And hath not ... come near to a menstruous woman ....--18:5-6

Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.--23:34

And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the LORD.--26:6

Hosea
So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley.--3:2

Therefore your daughters shall commit whoredom, and your spouses shall commit adultery.--4:13

Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.--9:14

Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.--9:16

Their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.--13:16
Matthew

Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!--24:19

1 Corinthians

It is good for a man not to touch a woman.--7:1

But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none.--7:29

The head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man.--11:3

For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.--11:7

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak.... And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. -- 14:34-35
Ephesians

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord-- 5:22

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church.... Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.--5:23-24

Let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. -- 5:24
Colossians

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands.--3:18

1 Timothy

I will ... that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array.--2:8-9

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.--2:11-12

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.--2:14-15

But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation.--5:11
Titus

Teach the young women to be ... obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.--2:4

1 Peter

Wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.--3:1

Revelation

No man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.--14:3-4

Great Post Muslim4ever

DoctorNO

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 446

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:21 am Post subject:

Daylight236 wrote:

Great Post Muslim4ever

Those were misinterpreted verses taken out of context, silly. Much of the list are mere historical tellings, nothing to do with the christian doctrine for women. I am not a christian but I find nothing more beautiful than this Christianic doctrine...

Husbands, love your wives, JUST AS Christ loved the church

husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies

Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them

The Invented Quran's opinion's melts like slime compared to the above verses.

Your wives are as A TILTH unto you; so approach YOUR TILTH

THEY COVET: WOMEN

Such are the POSSESSIONS

AND SCOURGE THEM

Those violent verses of the quran are the actual practised doctrine in Islam today. The muslimahs are mere possessions to be beaten if they misbehave.

Please learn to tell the difference between a historical account and an actual doctrine. Cool

Unknown 222

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 93

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:26 am Post subject:

Quote:

Arabchristian: I think you have not read any of my posts bcz if u have read just one my post you would not be asking what u have asked.
I am Quoting one the most important one:

Quote:

Before the advent of Islam., slavery prevailed all over the world. To men in those days, it seemed perfectly normal for the strong and wealthy to have slaves whom they had captured in war or purchased in the market. The Greeks were the leaders of thought in the ancient world. No Greek thinker had ever raised his voice against the institution of slavery. The Quran proclaimed the equality of all men in the sight of God. It struck at the root of slavery by recognizing the moral worth of man as man. However, there were, at the time of the advent of Islam, numerous slaves, both men and women, in Arabia as elsewhere in the world. The Arab economy was based on slavery. To abolish it at one stroke was impracticable. It could not be done without plunging the whole society into confusion. Yet, in every conceivable way, the Quran discouraged slavery and improved the lot of the slaves. The Muslims were urged to be kind and considerate to their slaves. They were told that to emancipate a slave was a meritorious act. They could atone for some of their offences by setting a slave free. Thus the number of slaves was gradually reduced and society was made less dependent on slave labour. The words "whom your right hand possessed" occurring in the Quran are in the past tense and refer to those who had already been enslaved. When they were emancipated through a gradual process, slavery died a natural death. The main source of slaves-men and women-was prisoners in war. The Quran laid down that they should be set free either for a ransom or as a favour (47 : 4). The door for future slavery was thus closed by the Quran for ever. Whatever happened in subsequent history, was the responsibility of the Muslims and not of the Quran.
Islam brought about a revolution in human relations placing master and slave, man and woman, on a footing of equality before God. In Arabia, as in most other countries, man had been accustomed to look on women just for the gratification of his lust. Marriage was a device to prevent men from quarrelling for the possession of desirable women. The Quran raised the status of women in society and made them equal partners of men in the enterprise of living.

Quran has just one verse about the prisoners of war i.e 47:4 in which the Quran laid down that they should be set free either for a ransom or as a favour (47 : 4).
See ur self the main gate for slavery was the prisoners of war but Quran has prohibited to make those prisoners slaves. What a revolution in the history of Mankind. And also you have no point to argue that Islam has made lawful the sex-slavery of the prisoners of war. Because nowhere in the Quran you can find a single verse allowing Muslims to make the prisoners slaves.

Where ever there is a mention of slaves in the Quran it is about the slaves which were alredy present in that society. Quran has never said anywhere to make slaves rather it has said to release them.

Now come to the verses you have quoted. You have understood Quran just by reading the translations of Quran which usually doesn’t convey the right message. You have misunderstood the words “your right hand possessed”.

The Quran can be best understood by the technique “tasreef e aayaat”. And this technique has given by the Allah himself. Tasreef e aayaat means to collect all the verses of a topic in question and then make a conclesion by concerning all the verses.

Now let us see the first aayat you have given i.e 33/50.
33/50. “O Nabi, verily we have made lawful to you, your wives to whom you have paid their dowers; and those who have returned to you from the unbelievers

Pickthal has wrongly understood the phrase “Wama Malakat Yameenuka” . It doesn’t represent the prisoners of war who are made slaves because in 47/4 Quran has not made it permissible to make the prisoners slaves. Now you can ask me how I have said that the true meaning is “those who have returned to you from the unbelievers”. And you will be also wanting to know who those are, who returned from the unbelievers. As I have said earlier the best way to understand Quran is the Tasreef e aayaat technique. So Quran has told us in another verse who were those who returned from the unbelievers..
See 60/10
(60:10 ) “O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! When believing women come to you as immigrants, investigate their case, although only Allah is best Aware of their Faith. Once you establish that they are indeed believers, do not return them to the rejecters of the Truth. They are not lawful for the rejecters, nor are the rejecters lawful for them. Give the rejecters what they have spent on them (as dowry). And there is no blame on you if you marry these women, when you have given them their due marital gift. And do not hold on to wedlock with women who continue to deny the Truth. And you may ask them for the dowry you had paid, just as the rejecters have the right to ask the return of what they spent. This is the Judgment of Allah. He judges between you, for Allah is all-Knowing, all-Wise.”
Also see a little bit tafseer or commentary on this aayat 60:10,
Allah tells the Muslims (There is now another important clause.) At this time many Muslim women are coming to Muslims after migrating from Makkah. Whenever they come to you, investigate their cases yourself, although Allah is fully aware of who amongst them are true to their Eiman. (However you cannot reach the right conclusion without proper investigation. Do not leave it to Allah, but investigate their cases yourself). If after scrutiny you are satisfied that they are firm and true in faith, then do not turn them back to the kuffar. This is because they have professed Eiman and their spouses are still Kafirs (and a Momin woman cannot live as wife with a non-Muslim husband, just like how a Momin man cannot marry a Kafir woman). Therefore neither are these Muslim women lawful for kafir husbands, nor are the kuffar for Muslim women. As such the question of these Muslim women returning to them does not arise. However, justice demands that whatever they have spent on their marriage to these women, should be repaid to them. Thereafter there is no harm if you marry them, on payment of dowers to previous husbands, see (4:24).
Likewise do not hold back those of your women who have not professed Eiman. Your marital relationship with them is over. However this issue would be better finalized after recovering from the kuffar, whatever you have spent on the marriage. Similarly pay the kuffar for their women who have come over to you, whatever is due to them.
This is the command of your Allah. All such disputed matters should be decided according to His commandments, as His judgments are based on knowledge and wisdom; (whereas there is a possibility that your emotions will affect the decisions you take).”
So we can easily say that there is no question of making war-prisones as slaves or having sex with them without marrying them.

Now come to the second verse i.e 23/6
“(23:6 )Not giving way to their desires with any but their spouses – that is, those whom they each other rightfully possess. Behold, they are free of all blame. ( also see 4:3, 24, 25. 24:32.)
[The very common rendering of this verse is extremely misleading. Many scholars, to my knowledge, think that slave girls are being mentioned here. But, MA MALAKAT AYEMANUHUM is a common gender. Could the translators have said for a moment that it was OK for a bondman to have sex with his ‘owner’ woman and that too when she was married! The translators and exponents confined it to the females alone, since in the second century after the exalted Prophet, Muslims, under the influence of corrupted Kings and Imams, had begun retreating to the old ways of JAHILYAH. These verses succinctly validate this assertion: 6:112-113, 22:52-55, 25:31, 42:13-14, 45:16-18.]
The word AW here is explanatory. AW = Or + That is + Namely + Call it + In other words. AW appears in this format instead of 'or' in many places in the Qur’an such as 23:6, 24:3, 25:62.

And if you say No you are wrong the mention here was the slaves then wherever slave girls are mentioned in the Quran you must keep in mind that these were those who were in their possession before the Quranic injunctions prohibiting slavery were revealed ~ 47:4; and who after being duly married had been given a status equal to that of other wives. You should know that Quran has also said the muslims to marry the slave girls(which were in their possession before the quranic injunctions) which makes it clear that sex relationship with slave girls is not allowed because then marry with them would have no meanings and also Quran has never said to enslave anyone and the verses of the Quran mentioning slaves are about those slaves which were already present there in that society before the advent of Islam.

Then you have mentioned the aayat 2:178 and totally misunderstood it showing a small baby mind and thinking.
After giving that verse you have concluded like this
“Allah here recognizes the difference between a "free" and a "slave." The law of "equality" differentiates between a slave and a freeman. This verse delivers the message that "when a slave in your army is killed, DON'T kill a freeman from the enemy in retaliation because it is not fair, you should kill (the inferior) slave instead, to be more fair."

What kind of equality is that? And if Allah really wanted to demolish slavery, why did he include a verse like this, which portrays freemen as superior to slaves?

According to this verse, and according to the "Law of Equality" that was prescribed by Allah, the blood of a freeman is more expensive than the blood of a slave.”
I am afraid are you a learning person who says so much about Logic and Science??? If yes then where was ur mind when you were making a childish conclusion about the above verse or it is the prejudice in your blood against the Muslims and The Holy Quran that you inferred it like that.
See what is the meaning of this aayat and what you have concluded.
“Mark this; the principle according to which it becomes necessary to fight against an oppressor (for the protection of human rights) also requires that punishment is awarded to individual wrong-doers for murder since without this safeguard, human life which is very valuable (5/32), would not be safe. In this context, the Law is that a murderer be punished (i.e. he should be considered a wrong-doer not against particular persons but against the society as a whole).
(Security of life is the cornerstone of a civilized society.) O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! QISAAS (The Law of Just Recompense) has been prescribed for you in dealing with murder. If a free person has committed murder, that free person will face the Law. If a slave has committed murder, that slave will face the Law. And if a woman has committed murder, that woman will face the Law. (The status of the victim or that of the offender, whether they are free men and women or those in bondage, will have no bearing before the Justice System). If the victim’s kin pardons the guilty, he must be appreciative and pay an equitable compensation to the kin in handsome gratitude. This pardon is a concession from your Lord and Mercy. Whoever, after this, trespasses this Law will have a painful doom (through the court of law and in the Court of Allah). (For full aspects please see 4:92-93, 5:32, 17:33, 42:40).
In awarding punishment, the basic principles of justice and equity must always be kept in view and no distinction should be made between the great and the humble. What is to be considered is not the status of the person murdered or the murderer, but the principle of justice according to which all human life is equally valuable. (Regardless of the fact whether the murderer is a free male, a slave, or a woman, he or she will receive the punishment for murder and their respective positions in society will not be able to protect them from it.)”
That is the meaning of the above aayat and think what distortion you have done in taking its meaning. Actually the case is that you have read the Quran, Oh sorry read the translation of Quran (which often doesn’t present the real picture) with a mind just to find faults in the Quran but believe me these are not the faults of the Holy Quran but these are the faults of your prejudice mind.

Then you have taken the verse number 4:24
About this verse you have written
“"And (forbidden to you) are married women, except those whom your right hand owns. Such Allah has written for you." (Quran 4:24 Darwish Trans.)

Here, you can have sex with a married slave girl. And here it can very well be called "rape," because the girl is already married!

Isn't that what Allah has "written for you"?”
I have already cleared this verse to you . Here again comes your wrong understanding of the Quranic verse.
Quran here says ““"And (forbidden to you) are married women, except those whom your right hand owns.”
See in my answer above when I was talking about the first verse you have presented i.e 33/50……Where I have told you who are these women Quran is talking about “Your right hand possessed”……and your question is if those women are also married then how Quran has said to do sex with them (but keep in mind this sexual intercourse will be after the marriage, there is no mentioning of doing it without marrying them) Then you will also ask how Muslims can marry a woman who is already married.……This is best answered in the verse 60:10 I mentioned earlier. The phrase ““Wama Malakat Yameenuka” in the above aayat 4:24 means “those who have returned to Muslims from the unbelievers” and not as the prisoners of war bcz it has already been prohibited to make the prisoners slaves(47:4 ) and there is no mentioning of prisoners of war in this aayat. The phrase “Wama Malakat Yameenuka” here means those women who have come to muslims from the unbelievers. Then the question who those women are and why it is allowed to marry them even if they are already married is best answered in the verse 60:10. I am quoting it here again
(60:10 ) “O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! When believing women come to you as immigrants, investigate their case, although only Allah is best Aware of their Faith. Once you establish that they are indeed believers, do not return them to the rejecters of the Truth. They are not lawful for the rejecters, nor are the rejecters lawful for them. Give the rejecters what they have spent on them (as dowry). And there is no blame on you if you marry these women, when you have given them their due marital gift. And do not hold on to wedlock with women who continue to deny the Truth. And you may ask them for the dowry you had paid, just as the rejecters have the right to ask the return of what they spent. This is the Judgment of Allah. He judges between you, for Allah is all-Knowing, all-Wise.”
Also see a little bit tafseer or commentary on this aayat 60:10,
Allah tells the Muslims (There is now another important clause.) At this time many Muslim women are coming to Muslims after migrating from Makkah. Whenever they come to you, investigate their cases yourself, although Allah is fully aware of who amongst them are true to their Eiman. (However you cannot reach the right conclusion without proper investigation. Do not leave it to Allah, but investigate their cases yourself). If after scrutiny you are satisfied that they are firm and true in faith, then do not turn them back to the kuffar. This is because they have professed Eiman and their spouses are still Kafirs (and a Momin woman cannot live as wife with a non-Muslim husband, just like how a Momin man cannot marry a Kafir woman). Therefore neither are these Muslim women lawful for kafir husbands, nor are the kuffar for Muslim women. As such the question of these Muslim women returning to them does not arise. However, justice demands that whatever they have spent on their marriage to these women, should be repaid to them. Thereafter there is no harm if you marry them, on payment of dowers to previous husbands, see (4:24).
Likewise do not hold back those of your women who have not professed Eiman. Your marital relationship with them is over. However this issue would be better finalized after recovering from the kuffar, whatever you have spent on the marriage. Similarly pay the kuffar for their women who have come over to you, whatever is due to them.
This is the command of your Allah. All such disputed matters should be decided according to His commandments, as His judgments are based on knowledge and wisdom; (whereas there is a possibility that your emotions will affect the decisions you take).”
So we can easily say that there is no question of making war-prisones as slaves or having sex with them without marrying them.

In the last you have presented the Aayaats 16:75-76
And concluded like this “Even in the parables of Allah, the master and the slave are not equal.Another verse humiliating slaves, and portraying them as stupid people, burden to their masters.

In addition, the master here is regarded as a man who "commands justice" and a man who is on the "straight way."”
See these two aayaat:
(75) The most appropriate example is given by Allah; there is a slave possessed by his master having no control over anything and a free man whom Allah has given the best of provisions which he gives out to others both secretly and openly according to his discretion. Are the two to be held equal? The course adopted by such a free man is worthy of Allah’s Hamd but those who look at things superficially do not understand this.
(76) Allah gives you another example of two men. One of them is he whose faculties of speech and mind are totally disabled. He cannot do anything of his own accord and he is totally dependent on his care-provider, unable to bring forth any good in any way. Can such a one be considered equal of the man who is fit, enjoins justice and himself walks the Straight Path? (Allah expects you to use your faculties to the best of your abilities).

The last part of the aayat 16:75 clearly tells me why you have concluded this result from the above verse . It is written “But most of them understand not”. In those “most” I am afraid you are also included.
Have you not heard the Quotation “One day of freedom in the Hell is better than hundred days of slavery in the Paradise”.
What it means that slaves are humiliating in this quotation???? If you infer like this then I am really worried about your mental condition. Tell me another thing you are a free person now but if someone make you slave then what will you say about your condition??? Will you consider your being free and being enslaved equal??? Or you will think that your condition of being free is far better than this slavery??? I think you will take that slavery as a curse…….you will try ur best to free urself. The question is why you think that in slavery you are having a bad condition as compared to when u r free. Are you humiliating “Slaves” by thinking like that??
Brother just think a little what u are talking about……Here in the above verses Quran by giving examples is comparing the two different conditions of Human Aspect i.e being free and beiang slave. Everybody knows freedom is thousand times better than slavery (but I think u don’t know) and here the Quran has said the same through an example by saying that Slavery is a curse and a slave has no control over himself but in comparison a free man has total control over his decisions and he can openly do what he wants according to his discretion. Isnt it the reality ???? By giving this example Allah wants to clearify the curse in slavery and urges the people to get freedom. A slave is totally dependent on his Master so one should abolish this curse and try to become free because what a free man can do , a slave cannot that’s why they are not equal.
But brother if you think that whether you are slave or a free person it doest matter and the situation of a slave and a free man is equal then why to object on slavery??? If in ur opinion being a slave is not a curse and its just like a free person then why u are objecting on slavery??? Or if I make you slave can you say that it doesn’t matter of being a slave or a free man. In these aayaat Quran has just told about examples that slavery is so much a curse that a slave cannot behave like a free person.
That’s why it is said by a wise person “One day of freedom in the Hell is better than hundred days of slavery in the Paradise”.

Unknown 222

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 93

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:38 am Post subject:

[b] What you have written about the Ahadith be this keep in mind that Bukhari is not my God....My God is ALlah who wrote The Holy Quran. Bukhari wrote his book of hadith about 300 yrs after the death of Muhammad(PBUH) .....And that too just by hearing and not by any written testament. So it contains many many false things....As to Muslims only that hadith can be termed as right one which doesnt contradict Quran bcz The Holy Quran was revealed onto Muhammad and anything attributed to him which is against the Holy Quran the Revelation , will be wrongly attributed to Muhammad(PBUH). SO Keep urself to the Holy Quran which is free of any contradictions and distortions.

Unknown 236

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 2

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 9:11 am Post subject:

Daylight236 wrote:

SO Keep urself to the Holy Quran which is free of any contradictions and distortions.

Free of any contradiction ?

Example :
A mother shall suckle her child during 2 years. (002.233, 031.014)
Gestation and breast feeding last 30 months (046.015)

So gestation lasts... 30 months - 2 years = ???

Unknown 222

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 93

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:24 am Post subject:

Karim wrote:

Daylight236 wrote:

SO Keep urself to the Holy Quran which is free of any contradictions and distortions.

Wrong interpretation brother....Quran has not make it necessary for a mother suckle her children for 2 yrs.......you have said "A mother shall suckle " which is wrong....The true one is "Not shall but should"

See 2:233

233 In case of dissolution of marriage, the mother should suckle the infant for a maximum period of two years (46/15, 31/14). If she does so, her maintenance becomes the responsibility of her former husband who should provide for her according to his means. Neither the mother nor the father should be made to suffer on account of the child. In the case of the father’s death, the responsibility for maintenance devolves upon his heirs.

If both parents agree, the suckling period may be terminated earlier and arrangements may be made to have the child suckled by another woman. If the suckling period is terminated earlier the full amount of maintenance promised to the woman must be given. Be mindful of the Laws of Allah Who knows what you do.

Now see 46:15

We enjoined upon man to display the best of behaviour with his parents. His mother did carry him in her womb with hardship and gave birth to him in pain (and took care of him round the clock, forgetting her own rest and sleep. This was not for a day or so but) The period of bearing and weaning him takes (about) thirty months .

(Note:For legal purposes the Holy Quran has fixed a period of 2 years for lactation (2:233; 31:14). This does not mean that the baby must be weaned at the age of 2 years; and not earlier. As regards pregnancy, the period is usually nine months long, although it could be more or less. During the first two to three months the pregnancy is light. It becomes heavy and more difficult after that (7:189). Accordingly, the six months of heavy pregnancy and two years of lactation make up the thirty month period.)

muslim4ever

Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 109
Location: EGYPT

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:13 am Post subject:

Doctor NO

Quote:

this is the problem of christians usually, Attack the others and when you Expose the cheap lies of their religion they say" misinterpreted verses "

and when the muslims say the same thing about Quraan they will be unlogically .

Quote:

The Invented Quran's opinion's melts like slime compared to the above verses.

And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself.--Dt.20:13-14

Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.--1 Sam.18:27

And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her .... Thou shalt go in unto her.--Dt.21:11-13

But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none.--1 Cor.7:29

But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none.--1 Cor.7:29

Dear DoctorNO please Ask yourself " oh myself shame on you , Dont attack the muslims and their holy Qraan , because they will Attack my religion and my holy Bible easily and you will be in bad postion"

yours ,
muslim4ever

DoctorNO

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 446

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:31 am Post subject:

Dear Muslims, Can you not defend your religion without attacking another? I know "misery loves company", but gimme a break! -DoctorNO Last edited by DoctorNO on Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:10 pm; edited 2 times in total

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