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Unknown 32
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 105
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 Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour's child hitting their child or justify this as "personal freedom," so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee'ah which Allaah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all? |
Honest to god, that is the most ridiculous thing I've read so far... |
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Unknown 32
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:49 am Post subject: |
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Hi NoMind,
You have a point. But the ayah (65:4) says,
"And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair."
Seems to be suggesting that the waiting period applies for menopausal women if there is a possibility they may not be menopausal. But I guess the same would apply for a girl in pre-puberty.
Take care,
Sophia |
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Unknown 209
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:20 am Post subject: This is damn sick ~!!!! |
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I think Allah is downright horrible ~!!!!
Think my friends.......Is there a God who allows this......I mean that does God allows Sex before marriage ??? Think my friends think ~!! |
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Unknown 8
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Dear Sophia,
You have some interesting points...
| Sophia wrote: | | However, how strong is premise #1? What if "without menses" means an adult woman who simply does not menstruate? Is it the Arabic reading that makes it clear that this is not what the Qur'an means? |
In verse 65:4, it literally says " and for those who did not menstruate."
IF it was intended to be refering to the special (ill) cases who should but don't menstruate, it should have been written as "those who do not menstruate." Notice the tense. It should have been in the present tense, not past. It is very clear here that it is refering to those who "did not menstruate yet."
I highly suspect that, at that time, menses can come late. I will look over that. But however, even if it was, the problem still exists, because a girl who doesn't have any monthly discharges is still not mature enough to get married.
| Sophia wrote: | | And also, why, if the Qur'an is talking about girls who have not menstruated YET, would it require a waiting period (the "idda") to ascertain that she is not pregnant? Wouldn't the fact that she IS a child mean she can't be pregnant? |
You either got confused, or I don't understand your point. Allah made two branches:
1)Those who do not menstruate (whether it is because they are too old or too young). Women (or girls to be more precise) who are in this category, will have an Idda of 3 months.
2) Women who are pregnant, will have an Idda until they lay off.
The waiting period is not used to ascertain anything. The phrase that begins with "for those who are pregnant" is seperate from the first one.
| Sophia wrote: | "And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair."
Seems to be suggesting that the waiting period applies for menopausal women if there is a possibility they may not be menopausal. |
In Arabic, the stopping of menstruation for those who got old is usually (if not always) called the "desperation of menstruation." The age when women stop menstruating is always called the "desperation age" (sin el yaas). So the "desperation" here is not about the women who are in the appropriate age for menstruation but are not menstruating, but about the women who got old and are no longer experiencing menstruation.
The statment "if you have any doubt" simply means "and if you are to ask, then do so and so." The "doubt" here has nothing to do with the menstruation itself, but with the decision of how long the Idda will be.
Thanks for bringing this out..
AC |
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CroMagnon
Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 2112
Location: West Kafiristan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Hi AbdulNoor, maybe you would trust the same fiqh text more if it were on the site of the
International Islamic University Malaysia? (www.iiu.edu.my)
Chapter 33: 'Idda, Istibra' and Maintenance
http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/lawbase/risalah_maliki/book33.html
| Quote: | ... 'Idda designates a woman waiting for a specific time determined by the Shari'a to see if she is pregnant. ...
....
33.1e. No 'idda if the marriage has not been consummated.
A divorced woman whose marriage has not been consummated has no 'idda.
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_________________
Sheikh Ahmad al Kat'ani:
"every hour 667 muslims are converting to christianity" |
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Egyptian Kafir
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hi buddies !
i have been extremely busy (and still) but i managed to access the net for a few minuties.
I didnt read all the posts after my last message but i just thought to reply quickly for the message of our closet muslim who poses as a kafir (sophia) :
| Quote: |
Impeccable logic. However, how strong is premise #1? What if "without menses" means an adult woman who simply does not menstruate? Is it the Arabic reading that makes it clear that this is not what the Qur'an means?
I'm wondering if the reason Abdullah has not brought up this possibility is because it is clear in Arabic that the Qur'an is referring to pre-pubescent girls?
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Please before rushing in to desperately defend your faith , take some time to read my first post of the thread, it will make life much easier really :
| Quote: |
The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses
Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying.
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=65&tid=54196
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and the sahih hadith explaining this exsct verse:
| Quote: |
واللائي لم يحضن , فجعل عدتها ثلاثة أشهر قبل البلوغ ) أي فدل على أن نكاحها قبل البلوغ جائز
"and those who never had menses, their prescribed period is three months before puberty, which indicates that giving her into marriage before puberty is permissible "
http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=7644
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AND one of the english quran translations :
| Quote: |
As for your women who have despaired of further menstruating, if you are in doubt, then their waiting period is three months as well as those who have not yet menstruated. As for those who are pregnant, their term shall be the time they deliver their burden. Allah will ease (matters) by His order for whosoever fears Him. (Quran 65:4) |
as for slave of allah, face it kiddo, you have absolutely no logical refutation to offer against the logic of the 6 point deduction that i gave you, Truth is painful...but you need to get over it.
cya later friends !
_________________
“The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.” ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes |
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Unknown 32
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Dear AC,
Thank you. I figured, considering how screwed up the Qur'an can get grammatically, that I should still raise the possibility. Also, both Pickthal and Yusuf Ali's translations makes it seem as if it is refering to someone who does not menstruate right now:
YUSUFALI: "Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."
PICKTHAL: "And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him. "
Only Shakir translates it in the past tense:
SHAKIR: "And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair. "
Since I don't speak Arabic, I can't tell which of these translations come closest to the original meaning, and also if Arabic idioms or common usage would give preferance for one kind of interpretation over another (like how "despaired of menses" is idiomatic for menopause).
| Quote: | | I highly suspect that, at that time, menses can come late. I will look over that. But however, even if it was, the problem still exists, because a girl who doesn't have any monthly discharges is still not mature enough to get married. |
Maturity is not determined by monthly discharges. The first menstrual period can be delayed if the girl is undernourished or malnourished. Girls have been known to reach late teens or early twenties without menstruating. I think an eighteen year old would be more than mature enough, especially in that period. However, the average nowadays for menarche is 13 years. Clearly a thirteen year old is not mature enough for a steady boyfriend, much less marriage.
| Quote: | | The waiting period is not used to ascertain anything. The phrase that begins with "for those who are pregnant" is seperate from the first one. |
I did get confused. I thought the waiting period was to find out whether the woman is pregnant or not. I think I mixed it up with another verse, or something.
Take care,
Sophie |
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Unknown 32
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Egyptian Kafir,
Assalamu alaikum my lapsed brother/sister.
You caught me. I thought I could pose as a kafira so I could, um, expose your hateful rhetoric and ANTI-ISLAM ANTI-MUSLIM ranting. But I guess my rightful indignation just became too obvious. I will have to return to the madrassa so I can learn to tone done my Islamic zeal a little. Maybe next time I'll disarm you all by requesting recipes for baby back ribs. Astaghfirullah, astaghfirullah, astaghfirullah.
Now I got that out of the way:
| Quote: | | Please before rushing in to desperately defend your faith , take some time to read my first post of the thread, it will make life much easier really : |
I couldn't help it. They don't call it blind faith for nuthin'. But dear EK, you go on to quote a TAFSIR. Another word for tafsir is EXPLANATION or even INTERPRETATION. No matter how impeccable the credentials of whoever offered it, it is still a tafsir. I raised the possibility of another TAFSIR. If it is not supported by the text of the Qur'an in Arabic, then say so, like ArabChristian did.
As for the hadith,
| Quote: | | "and those who never had menses, their prescribed period is three months before puberty, which indicates that giving her into marriage before puberty is permissible " |
It does not add much to the discussion. The "which indicates" part is another tafsir, unless it's a direct quote from Muhammed. If it is, then you have strenghtened your position. Damn. These kafirs are wily.
| Quote: | | AND one of the english quran translations : |
But that's 1 out of 2 translations. Are the other two wrong? If you know Arabic, tell us, which translation comes closest? ArabChristian says Shakir's, and I believe him/her. But you come across as dishonest: One out of three translations and an ambigious hadith! But let's not forget the TAFSIR!
Consider my petty nit-picking a godsent, helps you to polish your theory and present it to far less accepting folk with more confidence 
| Quote: | | as for slave of allah, face it kiddo, you have absolutely no logical refutation to offer against the logic of the 6 point deduction that i gave you, Truth is painful...but you need to get over it. |
That's what you think, you godless kafir. In fact, my logic is based on the Glorious and Amazing Qur'an, which, if you were REALLY honest, you'd concede is the most rational, awe-inspiring, thrilling book written around 650 AD.
Wasallam,
Sophia |
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Sophia
| Quote: |
Impeccable logic. However, how strong is premise #1? What if "without menses" means an adult woman who simply does not menstruate? Is it the Arabic reading that makes it clear that this is not what the Qur'an means?
I'm wondering if the reason Abdullah has not brought up this possibility is because it is clear in Arabic that the Qur'an is referring to pre-pubescent girls?
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You wanna listen to Egyptian Kafir, the guy who came here with the intention to slime Islam - or you wanna here from experts in Islamic Jurisprudence? In other words, is your presence here to slime, or to find out more?
Your preference tells us your intention, no?
Cromagnon
Did not in my referred link, http://forum.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?t=4973&start=0&sid=99e7a458311e1e3baa5a4d3acbb84b28 , I said that there are two schools of thought?
So Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, if I am to read him correctly, holds the school of thought, that it is death upon leaving Islam. That is the minority school of thought.
So what is your problem?
| Quote: |
Seems he is saying much the same things (about what Islam teaches) as many non-muslims on this and other sites ...
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Seems like you are trying to find ways to support your slimes. But this site, being a hate site, that is the only natural thing to do, right?
As for the Aisha Bewly case, I found that "no idda period" - is for the woman who has reached puberty, but not yet consumed her marriage. As in this verse –
"O you who believe: When you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them, no period of idda (waiting) have you to count in respect of them: so give them a present and set them free in a graceful manner." (33:49)
That is different from those who did not have menses yet, or those who have reached menopause. As in this verse – "Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. " (65:4 )
So yes, Aisha Bewly is right – and you are wrong – in quoting her wrongly!
Egyptian Kafir
Don’t try to show off your Arabic Linguistic skills here, if you have none in the first place. You could not even get the meaning of hasira and riba right. Who are you to contest scholars on whole verses? Native Arab speaker trying to show off, only to goof?
How is your Arabic Lessons? Let us try together once more.
Hasira does not mean undressing but uncovering
Riba does not mean interest but increment
Hasira does not mean undressing but uncovering
Riba does not mean interest but increment
Hasira does not mean undressing but uncovering
Riba does not mean interest but increment
Right, you may continue sliming. 
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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Unknown 8
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Abdulla....  !
First of all, the Aisha case has nothing to do with this. Take this example:
Muhammed, according to the hadiths, had 16 wives.
Can this fact, that Mo didn't follow the Quran accurately, change the meaning of verse 4:3 that says you have max. 4 wives? Can this add an exception to the verse for us?
It can't!
About Aisha: Can Muhammed's experience add anything to the Quran?
It can't too!
 What if Muhammed had secretly realized that, because of her being so young, her tiny organs (i won't go in details) would make it impossible for him to have a sexual intercourse, so sleeping with her won't be enjoyable??
Can this change the fact that Allah may have permitted pre-puberty consummed marriages?
Read this verse:
Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner. (Quran 18:110)
And read this sahih bukhari hadith too, which recites the words of Muhammad:
"....Please FORGIVE ME my previous And future sins; And whatever I concealed or revealed And You are the One who make (some people) forward And (some) backward..." (Vol 2, Book 21. Prayer At Night (Tahajjud). Hadith 221.)
Whom do you follow: Allah or Muhammed?
Doesn't Muhammed have his own sins, which prevents you from following his actions that are not in accordance with the Quran?
Isn't the Quran much more authoritative than Muhammad's actions?
Can you judge the Quran according to the actions of Muhammad.
If you believe Mo's actions are more reliable than the Quranic teachings, that's another story!
From the bottom line: Aisha's marriage can never change the fact that Allah may have permitted pre-puberty consumed marriages.
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Now, in this verse:
"O you who believe: When you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them, no period of idda (waiting) have you to count in respect of them: so give them a present and set them free in a graceful manner." (33:49)
You have NO EXCUSE to consider the pre-puberty girls as an exception. There is NO SIGN in the Quran, WHAT SO EVER, that would lead you to that conclusion.
Also, the Hadiths quoted by EK:
| Quote: | واللائي لم يحضن , فجعل عدتها ثلاثة أشهر قبل البلوغ ) أي فدل على أن نكاحها قبل البلوغ جائز
"and those who never had menses, their prescribed period is three months before puberty, which indicates that giving her into marriage before puberty is permissible "
http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=7644 |
AND:
| Quote: | The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses
Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying.
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=65&tid=54196 |
Those quotes give you NO ROOM for putting your own, or other apologetics "explanations."
According to your way of interpretatig the verses, you can add ALL KINDS of special cases as you like!!!
Why can't I consider the women who ALREADY have children from a different father and are not touched in their last marriage to be a special case and get an Idda period to support their children?
OR
Why can't I consider women who are not touched but are NOT PRETTY, to be a special case and will have an idda period?
How about that, Abd?
Tell me a reason why can't I consider those as "special cases"?
And before that, tell me first why can't you get married to more than 4 wives?
Didn't Mo do so?
As you have inserted your own assumptions, I can insert mine too.....Right?
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| Sophia wrote: | | Quote: | | None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour's child hitting their child or justify this as "personal freedom," so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee'ah which Allaah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all? |
Honest to god, that is the most ridiculous thing I've read so far... |
Wow...that really is ridiculous!  Man, is that supposed to be an argument of some kind? How do those two things tie together!?!?
_________________
KAMIKAZE WATERMELON! 
Fischerspooner is weird..but cool |
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bread
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Dear Crow, when your mind becomes distorted by Islmic bull, then you start imagining that if you write or say a few disjointed things (about anything unrelated, really) than you really gave a rebuttal.
It takes Islam to get that stupid. And Alaha Tabaraka knows best  |
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Egyptian Kafir
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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just a quick reply to our closet muslim friend, Sophia;
| Quote: |
I couldn't help it. They don't call it blind faith for nuthin'. But dear EK, you go on to quote a TAFSIR. Another word for tafsir is EXPLANATION or even INTERPRETATION. No matter how impeccable the credentials of whoever offered it, it is still a tafsir
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ah so i see ! the Tafsirs are BAD now when they become against our case eh? typical islamic hypocricy
here is a quote from our residental muslim defender, MENJ when Bread asked him for an argument about the quran based on the quran only, what did he say to this?
| Quote: |
MENJ sez:
If it is going to be "strictly the Qur'an", then I am afraid I will have to reject your challenge.
The reason is simple: the Qur'an is interpreted by the Prophet (P) and his Companions. Those interpretations are recorded in the body of Hadith tradtions. In turn, they are commented upon and analysed by the tafsir masters in the likes of Ibn Khathir, Zamakhshari and others.
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how laughable !
| Quote: |
It does not add much to the discussion. The "which indicates" part is another tafsir, unless it's a direct quote from Muhammed. If it is, then you have strenghtened your position. Damn. These kafirs are wily. |
do you even know what a hadith is? didn't they teach you what is it and how important are sahih hadiths to explain the quran and the reasons of the "revealation" of each verse in the madrasa?
| Quote: | | But that's 1 out of 2 translations. Are the other two wrong? If you know Arabic, tell us, which translation comes closest? ArabChristian says Shakir's, and I believe him/her. |
I always say shakir too, i said it before many times...look up my posts...and BTW, that is not only shakir who says this, the translation you quoted from my post is from another translation by a proffessor in Umm Durman university, Cairo Called Ahmend Darwish.
| Quote: | | But you come across as dishonest: One out of three translations and an ambigious hadith! |
correction: 2 translations (shakir and Darwish) and..omg ! what did you just call a hadith ?
| Quote: | | But let's not forget the TAFSIR! |
yep, MENJ and all other Muslims i am aware of also finds it very important as well !
| Quote: |
That's what you think, you godless kafir. In fact, my logic is based on the Glorious and Amazing Qur'an, which, if you were REALLY honest, you'd concede is the most rational, awe-inspiring, thrilling book written around 650 AD.
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i was'nt talking to YOU here smarty, that quote in my last post was directed to your buddy abdul...alittle too frustrated are we?
Abdulli
and how is your islamics lessons going? come let me help :
-Slavery was never banned and is fully allowed in islam.
-Slavery was never banned and is fully allowed in islam.
-Slavery was never banned and is fully allowed in islam.
-Egyptian kafir's lame "poem" is From the quran itself.
-Egyptian kafir's lame "poem" is From the quran itself.
-Egyptian kafir's lame "poem" is From the quran itself.
-I (abdullahnoor) will study islam more to avoid getting Humilated By kafirs like this.
-I (abdullahnoor) will study islam more to avoid getting Humilated By kafirs like this.
-I (abdullahnoor) will study islam more to avoid getting Humilated By kafirs like this.
what a moron..is that all what you got ? flooding the thread with this bullshit instead of posting anything that has some content?
here is the conclusion of the thread again for those who got a short memory :
1- we have a Quranic Verse that Talks about the 'idda status for devorced females who have not reached puberty at that time..in other words females who ARE minors while on that 'idda period.
2- as we saw, there is no 'idda period for devorced wifes who has not been consummated the marriage.
3- But the females we are talking about are IN an 'idda period.
4- then we get the conclusion : These females we are talking about has consummated the marriage.
5- but these females as we saw did not hit puberty ! minors !
6- Thus : allah allows sex with pre puberty kids !!!
Damn !!
have a nice time.
_________________
“The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.” ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes |
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bread
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Sophia, WaSallamu Aleakum
are you really a Muslimah? 
I was so excited about the good nitpicking work you were doing on the thread `the word we`and others. If you could spot such errors and inconsistencies in the Quran, how can you remain a Muslimah? 
Well, Sallam to you. Its much harder to live with doubt and freedom of choice than with the certainty of a cult.
Good luck |
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muslim4ever
Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 109
Location: EGYPT
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:18 am Post subject: |
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arabchristian
| Quote: | | Muhammed, according to the hadiths, had 16 wives. |
1-Muhammad was twenty five years old when he married Khadija, his first wife, who was fifteen years his senior and had been married twice . She remained his wife for twenty eight years until she died and he did not marry any other woman during this period of his life. He was always faithful to her memory, so much so that so that this loyalty provoked jealousy among some of his wives in later years.
2- The Prophet's nature, character and way of life before and after his prophethood are absolute proof that he was neither lustful nor sensuous. How could a man who was more than fifty years old suddenly change and become a slave to lust, when he had every opportunity as a young man to follow his desires, in common with the other young men of his tribe. On the contrary Muhammed was well known for his virtue and his only wife who was a virgin was A'isha, daughter of Abu Bakr, while most of his wives were widows whom he married for humane reasons or in order to enforce a religious observance or ruling and not for any sensuous desire on his part.
3-As regards his marriage to Sawda daughter of Zam'a who was the widow of one of his companions, he was more than fifty years old at the time, and she was neither beautiful, wealthy nor of noble descent. He married her in order to care for and support the family of his companion, who had suffered torture and death for his faith in God. His marriage to 'A i'sha ,daughter of Abu Bakr and Hafsa, daughter of O'mar at later dates were in order to strengthen the ties between himself and his companions, Abu Bakr and 'Omar.
4-As regards Um Salma, she was the widow of a martyr who had been mortally wounded in the battle of Uhud . She was an old woman and when the prophet proposed marriage to her she tried to excuse herself from accepting because of her age, but the Prophet consoled her and married her for humane reasons. The Prophet married Ramlah, daughter of Abu Sufyan who had emigrated to Abyssinia with her husband who had renounced Islam, become a Christian and had abandoned her leaving her without any maintenance . The prophet sent a message to Al Najashi, who ruled Abyssinia, requesting Ramlah's return to her homeland to deliver her from the estrangement which she felt in a foreign land and to deliver her from the persecution of her own Pagan family in Mecca, had she been forced to return to them. The Prophet also hoped that by this marriage her influential father in Mecca might be induced to embrace Islam .
The Prophet married Juwayriya, daughter of Al Harith who was among the captives captured at the battle of Al Mustalaq. Her father was the chief and master of his tribe and the Prophet married her in order to liberate her from captivity and he requested the Muslims to liberate their captives and set them free . This marriage paved way for understanding with the Prophet's previous enemies.
The Prophet married Safiya who was the daughter of the chief of the Jewish tribe of Banu Quraiza. She was allowed to choose between returning to her People or being set free by marrying the Prophet and she preferred to marry the Prophet to returning to her tribe.
5- The Prophet' s marriage to Zeinab ,daughter of Jahsh, who was his cousin, was in order to establish a religious ruling. She had been married to Zeid ben Haritha ,the Prophet's adopted son. Their marriage did not last long and she was divorced. It was the custom of the Arabs during that period to prohibit any marriage between a man and his adopted son's divorced wife . The Prophet was ordered by God to marry Zeinab in order to abolish this ruling which was totally unnecessary. The following Quranic verse abolished this ruling :
"... Then when Zeid had dissolved his marriage with her, with the necessary formality, we joined her in marriage to you: in order that the in future there may be no difficulty in the matter of marriage with the wives of their adopted sons,when the latter have dissolved with the necessary formality their marriage with them and God's Command must be fulfilled.'' (33/37)
finally can we say that jesus peace be upon him was a gay ? |
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Unknown 8
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Dear Muslim4ever,
Well, I read your post before at:
http://www.wponline.org/vil/Books/MHZ_IEBAD/CHAPTERTWO.html
I want to ask you something....
I can marry my beautiful neighbor, because her parents are dead, so i will be a good moral support for her. I can then marry my child baby servant, becuase she is poor and I will feed her. I can then marry my cousin, because i want to prove to the society that it is normal to marry close family relatives. I can them marry my smartest student, because I'll give her the best education at home. I can finaly marry my rich old friend, because I love her so much.
Can you justify these marriages?
What are the differences between these marriages and the prophets'?
Regards,
AC |
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Unknown 8
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | finally can we say that jesus peace be upon him was a gay ? |
How is this comment related to our debate on Muhammad?
You are trying to annoy me, like my comments on Muhammed are annoying you.
Hmmm..don't waste your time, I'm bulletproof.
I began to know how you think. You want to defend your faith by any means, and that is respectful. But before you do that, why don't you study Islam much better?
And I mean not only by reading the Quran and other Islamic scriptures, but other UNBIASED books as well.
You need to be FAIR, and read from ALL SOURCES, not only Islamic ones. Whenever you read an Islamic criticism, read its rebuttal from an anti-Islamic site, and vice-versa. That's a rule of thumb.
All people I know who seriosly studied Islam had left it. When I began studying Islam it was for educating myself; I wasn't intended, at all, to criticise it later. After reading the Quran, I realized why Islam has failed everyone, becuase it is a failture in itself, and I mean no insult.
I have a suggesstion for you: Study the history of the Arab world before and after Islam, and you will be amazed. The two history teachers in my school were secretly ex-Muslims. Do you know why? Becuase everything points out that Islam is a monolithic version of Idol worshipping...
Do you know that the kaaba and black stone were offical Idols in Mecca, the yearly pilgrimage to Mecca, the throwing of stones, the crescent moon, the ramadan fasting, the 5 prayers heading toward Mecca, the five pillars...etc. ALL THOSE were related to IDOLATRY at some point of time...BEFORE ISLAM.
Do you know that Muhammed came from a group called "el hafd" which was known to be of good morals, BUT unsatisifed with the current religions at the time (Christianity and Judaism). Do you know they had the best poets and writters? Do you know that Mohammad had EVERY REASON to start a new religion with the same teachings of Islam?
Is it a mere coincidence?
What makes you think that Muhammed wasn't a false prophet?
Why didn't he do ANY miracles?
Why isn't there ANY prophesies for Muhammed in the Bible, although there are ANCIENT SCRIPTS for the Bible, which are ALL quite the same, with no references to Muhammed WHAT SO EVER?
This is the only "prophecy" I found for Muhammed:
(Matthew 7:15-16) “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them"
What makes you think the Bible is corrupted?
What makes you think the Quran is NOT corrupted?
What are the new extraordinary teachings that Islam introduced to the world?
Why do many history books get banned in Egypt? Why is the media stricktely censored on religious content?
Why did all the nations who embraced Islam fail one after the other?
Why did God do this to his "faithful followers"?
Why does Islam commands anyone who leaves it to get killed?
Why does the construction of new chruches in Egypt restricted? Why is even renewing them restricted?
Why are Muslim countries TERRIFIED of Evangelists, while every non-Muslim country gives freedom to Islamic da'wahs?
Do you know that your great grandfathers were FORCED TO CONVERT TO ISLAM becuase they couldn't pay the TREMENDOUS JIZYA and/or the massive presecution?
Do you know that MORE THAN 90 PRECENT OF EGYPTIANS embraced Islam NOT by their own will?
Why are YOU scared? to stick to your religion that you are not yet aware of?
And since you mentioned Jesus, then you need first to read the Bible, as I have read the Quran, before you say "Jesus was gay":
http://www.gospelcom.net/ibs/bibles/arabic/
Read and research, and NEVER believe in what is told to you, until you prove it yourself.
Good Luck,
AC |
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muslim4ever
Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 109
Location: EGYPT
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Dear Ac
| Quote: | | What are the differences between these marriages and the prophets'? |
this is my Question.
| Quote: |
What makes you think that Muhammed wasn't a false prophet? |
you and others like you make me more faithfully on my religion and my prophet.
| Quote: | | Why didn't he do ANY miracles? |
THE HOLY Quraan is the biggest miracle of Muhammed.
Many miracles were performed by the Prophet Muhammad by God’s permission. These miracles were witnessed by many people
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-5.htm
| Quote: | | Why isn't there ANY prophesies for Muhammed in the Bible, although there are ANCIENT SCRIPTS for the Bible, which are ALL quite the same, with no references to Muhammed WHAT SO EVER? |
sorry this is a cheap lies
.
Did Jesus and Isaiah PROPHESY the coming of MUHAMMAD?
http://www.islaam.com/Article.asp?
What the Bible Says About Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) ?
http://www.islamland.org/articles1/a009.htm
| Quote: | | What makes you think the Bible is corrupted? |
Contradictions and proofs of Historical Corruptions in the Bible
at
http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm
| Quote: | | Why did all the nations who embraced Islam fail one after the other? |
| Quote: |
Why did God do this to his "faithful followers"? |
from the same source look at this
| Quote: |
1- History verifies the fact that Islam was able to establish a great civilization in a very short period after its advent. This civilization was one of the most lasting civilizations in history. Proof of this can still be witnessed in the various branches of the Islamic heritage which is manifested in the arts and literature that exist up to this very day .Libraries all over the world exhibit thousands of Islamic manuscripts written in Arabic which illustrate the extent of the great civilization that was inspired by the Faith of Islam and which extended from the Eastern boundaries of Persia bordering on India in the East to Andalusia which is known as Spain in the West . The influence of the grandeur of the Islamic civilization in Spain can still be seen and cannot be denied in the twelfth and thirteenth century Europe initiated an organized movement of translating Islamic works in all subjects and these works which were the outcome of the Islamic civilization formed the foundation upon which Europe’s modern civilization was established .
2- The Quran contains many verses which express the greatest respect for knowledge and those who acquire knowledge. The Quranic verses urge Muslims to look at the universe and meditate upon creation and how the earth was prepared for habitation. The very first five verses inspired to the prophet emphasized the importance of knowledge, reading and meditation. This matter was understood by the Muslims to be of the greatest significance and they accordingly followed the Divine Command .
3- The backwardness of some Muslims today cannot be blamed on Islam, since Islam is against all forms of backwardness. When Muslims fail to understand the true spirit and teachings of Islam they will be unable to keep peace with the progress of the world that increases daily. The reason for this situation was explained by the famous Algerian intellectual, the late Malek ben Nabi who said that the backwardness that Muslims suffer today is not any way caused by Islam but that it is a penalty deservedly inflicted by Islam upon Muslims for forsaking its teachings and not for adhering to it, as is believed by many people who are ignorant of the truth of the matter. Thus there is absolutely no connection between Islam and the backwardness of some Muslims.
4- Islam keeps peace with every aspect of the development of civilization and will continue to do so for the benefit of mankind. When Muslims search for the real cause of their backwardness, they shall realize that no way Islam is to blame. There are many other factors, which date back to the aftermath of colonization which hindered the development and progress of the Islamic World. This factor, in addition to the internal problems of these lands, led the Muslims to neglect and forget the constructive elements that are essential for development and progress as advocated by Islam.
5- Under no circumstances should Islam be held responsible for the backward state of some Muslim countries in the world of today. This can be considered a stage in the history of these nations which will not continue for ever. Likewise Islam cannot be accused of being responsible for the backwardness of Latin America. Academic objectivity in judging Islam's attitude towards civilization should be based on a fair and unbiased study of the principles of Islam and not upon rumours, false allegations and preconceived opinions that have no bearing whatsoever on the truth of the matter |
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muslim4ever
Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 109
Location: EGYPT
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do you know that your great grandfathers were FORCED TO CONVERT TO ISLAM becuase they couldn't pay the TREMENDOUS JIZYA and/or the massive presecution? |
The Poll Tax (Jizya)
http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/war/war6.htm
| Quote: | | Do you know that MORE THAN 90 PRECENT OF EGYPTIANS embraced Islam NOT by their own will? |
another cheap lie .and no comment
| Quote: | Why are YOU scared? to stick to your religion that you are not yet aware of?
And since you mentioned Jesus, then you need first to read the Bible, as I have read the Quran, before you say "Jesus was gay":
http://www.gospelcom.net/ibs/bibles/arabic/
Read and research, and NEVER believe in what is told to you, until you prove it yourself. |
http://www.alhakekah.com/
http://arabic.islamicweb.com/christianity/
"Christianity is always adapting itself into something which can be believed - T.S. Eliot"
best wishes
yours
muslim4ever " Egyptian out of 90 PRECENT OF EGYPTIANS who embraced Islam NOT by their own will" |
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Unknown 8
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| muslim4ever wrote: | Dear Ac
| Quote: | | What are the differences between these marriages and the prophets'? |
this is my Question. |
What do you mean?
If you found that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE, then you have to justify those marriages FOR YOUR SELF.
If you counldn't, then you can't justify them for the prophet too!
| Quote: | | Quote: |
What makes you think that Muhammed wasn't a false prophet? |
you and others like you make me more faithfully on my religion and my prophet. |
I heard this hundreds of times...
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Why didn't he do ANY miracles? |
THE HOLY Quraan is the biggest miracle of Muhammed.
Many miracles were performed by the Prophet Muhammad by God’s permission. These miracles were witnessed by many people
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-5.htm |
Is that a Joke?
This site you gave me had only two "miracles." The first one is proved to be "FALSE," and Islamic sites claimed that the spiltting of the moon was done by NASA, not by Mohamed:
http://www.submission.org/miracle/moon.html
The second one is obscure, since no body but his few followers saw it.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Why isn't there ANY prophesies for Muhammed in the Bible, although there are ANCIENT SCRIPTS for the Bible, which are ALL quite the same, with no references to Muhammed WHAT SO EVER? |
sorry this is a cheap lies
Did Jesus and Isaiah PROPHESY the coming of MUHAMMAD?
http://www.islaam.com/Article.asp?
What the Bible Says About Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) ?
http://www.islamland.org/articles1/a009.htm |
Those claims have been refuted from AGES:
Is Muhammad Foretold in the Bible?
And many other links at:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Muhammad/Foretold/
This page has links to many pages that has HUNDREDS of rebuttals to the "contradictions in the Bible":
http://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/Contra/index.html
You can see also How does Islam view the Bible?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Why did all the nations who embraced Islam fail one after the other? |
| Quote: |
Why did God do this to his "faithful followers"? |
from the same source look at this |
Another bunch of useless text that is not substantiated by ANY evidence, just fantasies of the Great Islamic Civilization that didn't ever exist!
You didn't answer my question:
Why did God do this to his "faithful followers"? |
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Unknown 8
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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If Egypt is a Christian country now: What would it feel if you to pay an EXTRA tax on you OWN LAND?
YES YES, IT IS FOR OUR PROTECTION!!!!....
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"Fight those who neither believe in Allah nor the Last ay, who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the Book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humiliated." (Quran 9:26 Darwish Trans.)
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Islam: Spread By The Sword?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Do you know that MORE THAN 90 PRECENT OF EGYPTIANS embraced Islam NOT by their own will? |
another cheap lie .and no comment |
IS that an ANSWER?
Go and read history books. and then you will absolutely have no comment. Even Muslims admit that! And you are in denial.
Afraid to read the Bible, Right?
Why not read it to educate you rself?
Don't you think the links you gave me, el mase7eya fel mizan and el 7owar el eslamy el mase7y, new to me?
| Quote: | | "Christianity is always adapting itself into something which can be believed - T.S. Eliot" |
"Musims are always hiding and beating around the bush when it gets to their religion; all of them can't justify or defend it, due to the immense amount of errors that it contains, and violence and bloodshed that it fosters to its followers - A.C. FFI"
What does your quote prove? That there is someone called "T.S. Eliot" who thinks so? Who cares? What is his proof? What is your proof?
| Quote: | | muslim4ever " Egyptian out of 90 PRECENT OF EGYPTIANS who embraced Islam NOT by their own will" |
Yes I know you are. |
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Unknown 8
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Muslim4ever,
You didn't answer all my points. You still have those challenges:
1- This thread, and disproving that ISlam allows pedophilia
2- Justifying the marriages of Muhmmed.
3- Disproving that all the official rituals of Islam were connnected to Idolatry
4- Explaining what makes you think the Quran is not corrupted
5- Explaining the new extraordinary teachings that Islam introduced to the world
6- Explaining why do many history books get banned in Egypt
7- Explaining why did God did this to his "faithful followers"
8- Explaining why does Islam commands anyone who leaves it to get killed
9- Explaining why does the construction of new chruches in Egypt restricted, and why is even renewing them restricted
10- Explaining why did Muslims failed to succeed in ANY debate here at FFI
And before all of that, I would like to invite you to my thread Wine: Drink It? or Drink It Not? and refute the contradiction that I found.
I need to see you there.....If you failed, then ALL the Quran is false, and you don't need to rebut those 10 points.
That's to begin with...
Kind Regards,
AC |
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