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ultraman agul

Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1302
Location: Dar al-Islam

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:55 am Post subject:

Ari wrote:

Yeah...yeah Menj, anybody exposing Islam's dark history is an Islamophobe.

I am questioning your use of "authorities" who are not known for their friendliness, impartiality or scholarship integrity to Muslims in general. As there is little evidence to convince me that your having to resort to the use of such material demonstrates your sincerity in criticisms of Islam or its historicity, it is hence rightful that the issue of your whole integrity and motivation be put into question.

- MENJ
_________________
Allah matlamat kami, Al-Quran perlembagaan kami, ar-Rasul ikutan kami, penentang Islam musuh kami, jihad jalan kami dan berkorban pada jalan-Nya adalah setinggi-tinggi pengorbanan

Piggy

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 835

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:35 am Post subject:

ultraman agul wrote:

Ari wrote:

Yeah...yeah Menj, anybody exposing Islam's dark history is an Islamophobe.

Menj,
I am questioning your use of "authorities" who are not known for their friendliness, impartiality or scholarship integrity to NON-Muslims and "unbelievers" in general. As there is little evidence to convince me that your having to resort to the use of such material (Quran and the legion of preachers of darkness) demonstrates your sincerity in criticisms of "unbelievers" or its historicity, it is hence rightful that the issue of your whole integrity and motivation be put into question. Wink

Get with de-program Menj.

Ari

Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 976
Location: New York

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:37 am Post subject:

ultraman agul wrote:

Ari wrote:

Yeah...yeah Menj, anybody exposing Islam's dark history is an Islamophobe.

I am questioning your use of "authorities" who are not known for their friendliness, impartiality or scholarship integrity to Muslims in general.

Why should there be friendly in the first place when they see what millions have seen in Islam? And of course according to Muslims no Islam critic has an integrity. Do you expect me to quote Esposito to prove it to you that Islam has a dark history?

Quote:

As there is little evidence to convince me that your having to resort to the use of such material demonstrates your sincerity in criticisms of Islam or its historicity, it is hence rightful that the issue of your whole integrity and motivation be put into question.

Coming from you, as if I cared... Laughing

Ari
_________________
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." -Einstein

adnan

Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:34 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Killing apostates is flexible enough in that it doesn't prescribe a definite way of execution. See Farside's post on the subject. However stoning is quite regulated that you should use stones big enough to hurt but not too big to kill the convicts at one instance (so the key is to kill them slowly and painfully).

Yes Ari,
Islam is so flexible! See, it doesnt specify the exact circumference of the stones used to spill out the Adulterer's brain, it just says, not too small and not too big! Islam is such a flexible religion! Laughing

Farside's post, yes the one that talked about How to kill an apostate.. so lets see what "flexibility" of Quran and hadith Hamo is talking about.

Message to Menj: If you want to win, you can still win and more easily by being an ex-muslim and fighting against Islam.
As you can see from many other muslim posters who gave up, its very hard for a muslim to win, when Islam is under discussion. So again, you can still win, Menj and that too, more easily!

Adnan

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:59 pm Post subject:

Ari wrote:

Quote:

You really have to learn how to keep focus ari. Discussion was if muslims are more violent because of Islam or not. The fact that muslims curently are a little poorer than buddhist was really never part of discussion. These statistics really do not help any of your claims.

hamo, it's really painful to read your posts. You obviously don't have the IQ to distinguish between Buddhism, Buddhists (or those who are born in a so-called Buddhist family but have no knowledge of what Buddhism stands for nor practice it and I have told you that Buddhism is not about worship or belief as Islam so it's not that easy to decide who are real Buddhists and who are just Buddhisyts by default), and system of governance.

Until you do, it's a complete waste of time talking to you.

What does anythin you said have to do with anything I said in the paragraph you are replying to? When you run out of good arguments you just seem to make up crap.

Quote:

Have fun in Vietnam. try to not talk too much about democracy over internet, there were some arests there:

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/asia/vietnam/montagnards/

Also I hope that your bf, or husband or what ever is not christian:

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/asia/vietnam/montagnards/

Again, Vietnam is a communist country. And believe me Christians have much more freedom here than in SA or any Islamic countries. Christians constitute about 40% of the population. How many Arab Christians are there in SA?????

Quote:

Finaly I hope you do not get caught reading this email, since it has all these incriminating stoiries about vietnamese goverment Laughing

Yeah and it's a communist government!!!

Hey, read some more before cluttering this thread with some shamefully ignorant posts.

Ari

Hey I am just giving you heads up. You seem to enjoy freedoms in vietnam so much, I just wanted you to know things you would not learn in clubs and hotels of vietnam.

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:00 pm Post subject:

Ari wrote:

Quote:

Obviously your story does not add up since Buddhist monks did invent wery violent martial arts., and there is a history of violence in Buddhist countries. Compare the propaganda pamphlet above to the truth bellow:

Well question was martial art invented for??? Is it for attacking innocent people? Is it for waging war? Is it for making enemies? Quite the contrary. If you hade ever trained in martial art you would have known that the first thing they teach you is not to look for enemies or conquer others. It in fact teaches humility and that it is much more difficult to conquer oneself than to conquer others. It is only used when you are harmed or you need to defend those who are harmed. It is also for health and character building.

I do have Martial arts training. I have yellow belt in Karate, took some Kung-fu and could have gotten orange belt in Tae Kwo do, but did not want to pay $40 fee (you can take than some 1 credit free courses in university). They never thaught me not to make enemies or not injure others, and if that were really the case, those monks would be dancing Balet, and not kicking and punching. Martial arts are not about agresion? You seem to be going into denial.

Quote:

ZEN BUDDHISM ORDERS THE DEAHTS OF 40 MILLION ASIANS in World War Two.

Right some Zen priests abused Zen some 50 years ago. What about now? Can you find any incident involving Buddhists in the name of Buddhism in such a big scale as those involving Muslims if AT ALL? C'mon there is degree to it, I'm not denying that any religion can be abused but you have yet to prove that Buddhists are equally bad to Muslims.

I have just shown buddhism being abused, just like islam is. You claimed that never happened, I just found an example. Now you want more examples? I will be sure to let you know as I dig them up. I am sure there are more -- bloody human nature never let me down.

We have seen Muslims waging war and violence in the name of Islam since time immemorial, not so with Buddhists. Do you want to deny this??? Find me a piece of news showing Buddhists blow a bus, discotheque and building in the name of Buddhism or advancing a Buddhist cause recently! C'mon Hamu, it should be easy for you to do that if what you claim is true. And let me remind you again, not only you have to find cases/examples but you also have to show us that they are in the same degree in terms of prevalence and urgency as Islamic terrorism AND, last but not least, they are supported by mainstream Buddhists and Buddhist leaders.

[/quote]

There is only about 360 milion buddhists (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/bud_statwrld.htm)

Amon them there are some crazies. Good thing that these guys are not that competent:

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/aums.html

Here is some Buddhism monks forcing christian to convert:

http://www2.wcc-coe.org/pressreleasesen.nsf/0/0a3c2e8b57e76ab7c1256ce1005e7685?OpenDocument

Here is buddhist ethnically clensing muslims:

http://www.db.idpproject.org/Sites/idpSurvey.nsf/wViewCountries/0BFD9DE4D9E460DCC125691200561470

Here is some ancient buddhist genocide and holly wars in Sri Lanka

http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/dalitism/dal000/budsinbk.html

Now aparently Sri Lankan buddist soldiers rape and mistreat Tamils and muslims

http://www.jca.apc.org/fem/news/women2000/699.html

Some human right violation in Bhutan:

http://www.geocities.com/bhutaneserefugees/us_hrreport.html

For only 300 milion or so people, you are commiting a lot of opression and killing.

Quote:

The Rape of Nanking : The Forgotten Holocaust of World War 2, Iris Chang.

http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/zenholy.htm

No no...let's see your hypocrisy, first you claim that Japan isn't a Buddhist country, then you go on saying that the rape of Nanking was done by Buddhists in the name of Buddhism???? Shocked

PROVE IT.

Actually I did not write the quote above, I quoted someone else. And I think you are the one that claimed that Japan is not Buddhist country, back when I originaly mentione Japanese and chinese bloody history.

[quote]
Get out of here.

Quote:

BUDDHISM THROUGHOUT HISTORY WAS INTERWOVEN WITH VIOLENT WARS - just like Islam and Christianity

BULLSHIT. PROVE IT HERE. C'mon Hamu, prove it that the wars that Buddhists have waged in the name of Buddhism is as bad as Christians and Muslims in the name of their religions. And give us the time frame, don't you demand it when we show you that Muslims are involved in most conflicts??? SHOW US THAT BUDDHISM OR BUDDHISTS HAVE CAUSED AS MUCH VIOLENCE, AND AS MANY CONFLICTS IN THE PAST AND THE PRESENT AS ISLAM/MUSLIMS HAVE! You can't pick up a few exceptions/sporadic incidents over 5 decades ago and that talk to us, "Look Buddhists are just as bad as Muslims!", can you?????? C'mon of course you are not that stupid??? Or maybe I'm wrong? (shrug)

[quote]

The quotes above are just curent conflicts. Put japanese genocide in WWII. Putting all that together and It is possible that Buddhist wars outnumber muslims wars in number of casualties. Obviously Buddhists are no saints.

Quote:

YET BUDDHISTS AND OTHERS DENY THIS - for they like to have a mythical view of Buddhism.

READ FOR YOURSELF.

SO WILL I GET PEOPLE APOLOGIZING TO ME AND CALLING ME A LIAR?

You are hypcritical and blinkered if not a liar. It's not better than lying. Buddhism is much better in reputation, everyone sane can attest to that period. And you have failed to prove otherwise taking into account the things I mention above in bold.

Ari

Buddhism is tucked away in the jungles of nowhere, and great killings and genocides never see a light of day. Muslims, on the other hand, are in the important geo-strategical position, siting on huge reserves of oil, and being next to Israel and Europe. It is easy for Buddhists to claim this, that and the other thing, when they are out of the western eye. Islam, on the other hand, has always been a rival to Christandom, and has, therefore always had a bad rep.

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:13 pm Post subject:

Ari wrote:

Quote:

Yeah you would think that in thousants of years of doing nothing buddhist monks figured out how to make themselves feel good. Look it is a gimick.

And I am to take it for granted that you know more than those highly trained scientists, aren't I??? Rolling Eyes

What a joke. What research have you done in mind science or brain function or human behavior? What books have you written? C'mon hamo show us that you know more and are more qualified to talk about mind science than Daniel Goleman and those other scientists. Did you even read the link??? Did you read what other scientists found in their research?

Daniel Goldman is one of many scientist claiming many diffrent things. from scientists singing praises to Apple cider, to scientists supporting UFO theories:

http://www.ufoarea.bravepages.com/abduction_professor_harvard.html

Daniel Goldman seems to be in that company. Of course there are some benefits to meditation, but brain research is still pretty new and it is not clear how significant meditation is.

Quote:

Hamo, you are pathetic. Cool

Quote:

Text is narated in a impresive technical jargon, but all it means is that Buddhist monks have trained themselves to feel good. Every religion has such gimics to give them a smell of credibility.

Hey prove it that the scientists are wrong!!! It's easy just to make an inane one-line response about a scientific finding as gimmick, I can say it too about theory of relativity. Laughing

But does that disprove Einstein's finding???

Go ahaid, ridicule Theory of Relativity.

Quote:

Consider christian prayer:

http://www.aegis.com/news/ads/1995/AD952264.html

Or Islam prescribing to eat dates:

http://www.ummah.org.uk/science/printscfeature.php?scfid=38

Or Muslim fast:

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/ramadhaan/fasting_and_health_care.htm

Yeah...where is it the proof/confirmation by scientists that they create change in the brain that causes people to be more prone to happiness???

C'mon habu, I'm having fun here. Laughing

Actually I don't like boxing with a too easy-to-defeat opponent but hey I'm generous, I can wait till you shape up. Laughing

Ari

I dunnot know how you can possably compare "increased activity in the happy center of the brain" to actual increase in T cells, or reduction of fluid in the lungs -- which you get by praying to christian god. Hey aparently christian prayer can save your life, while Buddhism can only make you more happy if you are duying. Maybe you are in the wrong religion!!! Hay if you ever get pregnant, eat dates instead of meditating -- that will help you more.

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 10:04 pm Post subject:

[quote="Ari"]

Quote:

You seem to have no long term memory.

That is actually what Dan Cannon and I say about you through one too many such examples from your part showing that kind of symptom. Very Happy

Quote:

his posting of yours is a perfect example of that fact. First you said that I ignore all your "difficult questions" about Muhamed, quran etc. I point out to you that your claim is not true and that to your "difficult questions" I always responded with my contra-arguments. But you -- unfortunately -- seemed to have totaly forgot your original statement (a point of our discussion), and went on tangent atacking my example contra-arguments. It is exactly this sort of thing that makes people who discus with you online frustrated with you. I mean you need long term memory in order to understand deductive reasoning. In a logical progresion of steps from A to B to C, you need to remember previos logicals milestones to reach a meaningfull conclusion. Othervise you will not be able to learn anything more complicated than a picture, and in a few days you will be accusing me of ignoring your "dificult questions" about muhamed, Quran, etc.

Need a doctor be reminded by his patient that smoking is dangerous? Laughing

You are the one who obviously suffers from amnesia and short memory span. Adnan has shown you as well that you denied the things you said about me. Laughing

And I have shown you many times your hypocrisy and double standard.
[quote]

First of all, thank you for replying to my paragraph in whole like I asked you to. Let us make a deal, you and me. Let us agree to reply to the entire paragraphs, and that way avoid any confusion that might arrise whe cutting someones argument in half. I will not do that to you if you do not do that to me.

Second, I will use this oportunity to point out to you another flawed way of your argument. Sometimes, when confronted with an argument, instead of replying to it, and sticking to the original subject, you point fingers at the other side and make blanket acusations with providing specific instances. Your reply above is the perfect example. When merely pointing out to you that you sometimes go off on a tangent, you ridiculed me, acused me of double standard, hypocrasy, adn said that I did something before and Adnan pointed out to it. Even if whet you said is true (and I am not saying that it is not -- let us not branch out another endless argument), that is not in any way relavant to what you are doing right now, and you should be person enough to acknowledge your failings, even if you think that I have them too.

Quote:

Second, How do I know that prophet's call did not cause violence? That is a wrong questions since you need proof to belive something is true, and not the other way arround.

Hamo, it's really tiring for us to keep bringing up the violence that Muslims have done since the time of Mo till the present that are ACTUALLY documented in Muslims' own sources!!! Mad

Where have you been for God's sake????

You really need to focus ari. No doubt muslims have comiter violence, question is, is that violence caused by Islam, and is it more than other religions?

Quote:

So yes, that the prophet's call has caused a lot of violence in Muslim history. How many wars did he fight? How many people did he kill? Do you know at all???

Don't be so obtuse. Confused

Just because there was Violence, does not mean that it was caused by Islam. All empires vaged war of conquest, weather it is Islamic or not Islamic empire. You are far from prowing that Islam causes violence. In fact -- compared to other empires, Islamic empire had just about equal amount of violence -- so this example goes against your claims.

Quote:

After all you cannot prove a negative -- that is logical imposability.

No, I'm not trying to do that.

No ari! You asked me How I know that quran does not cause violence, so you were asking me to prove a negative, not the other way arround.

Quote:

That what Mo did caused violence is not something I claim but Muslims!!! How many times people have shown in this forum how Islamic websites will tell you unapologetically that violence and physical force is the very foundation of Islam, that is how Islam is spread. It's nothing wrong with it for them, and you an infidel comes here and tells us all the whitewashing stuff about islam that many learned Muslims themselves frown upon! What can be more ludicrous than that???

Islam, as well as many other religions spread by force. That does not prove that Islam causes violence. In fact even Buddhist -- as many links that I have given show -- vaged war. That is just human nature. Humans are violent by nature and no religion can change that.

Quote:

I know you have respect for science. In science, scientist, based on observaion, comes up with a guess. That guess is called Hypothesys -- and that is the point where your argument is now. But hypothesys is nothing but a speculation. In order for hypothesys to bcome a theory, scientist would run an experiment to prove that hypothesis is true. There are books and books written on how to do an experiment, and I do not want to bore you with it, but the point I am trying to make is that anyone can come up with speculation, what you need to do is prove yours (not necesarily by experiment, but some statistical data would be nice). Prove that Quran causes violence!

Again, a patients tells his doctor that smoking is bad. Laughing

As I recall, you are the one who innanely says that years of Scientist research that has proven a hypothesis of the efficacy of Buddhist practice beyond a shadow of a doubt a mere gimmick. Laughing

A case of short memory span again??? Laughing

Gimic is not something that is contrary to science. Gimick is a novelty, or something amusing. When in doubt, use a dictionary.

But just so the original meaning of my paragraph does not get lost in discusing a meaning of the word "gimmick", I am reposting it again:

Quote:

And finally, as for speaches made by Islamic clerics, Speaches are not indicators of true causes of violence. In fact, speaches are not even the summary of the situation.

O you are so wrong. I once lived in Indonesia and one time I read that many riots and church burnings were conducted after Friday prayer's fiery sermon!!! Ha...what are you saying now???

You can't more emphasise the power of speech in inciting emotions. The greatest orators of the world are those who can move their subjects to do things, for good or bad, as they wish; to create a revolution. In Islamic gatherings emotions run high and what will happen afterward will depend very much on how much emotion-inciting speech based on what they believe as true is given by the clerics. Whether Muslims will go straight registering for jihad to Afghanistan or give away their jewellery/money for their brothers in need who are victimised by infidels would very much depend on such speech.

Speach is a speach, and not mass hypnosis. You seem to atribure magical powers to speach-writting. Speaches are emotional, but they are based on real world facts and acusations. there must be a real grievance against a person or a group for a speech to work.

Quote:

Person who makes the speach assumes that his audience already support him, agree with him, and know the situation. Therefore speaches do not employ arguments and reasons, as much as emotional parols designed to rally the support.

But then if the respected leaders plea for calm instead for violence, it won't cause any violence, will it?? the manner and the belief certain religious leaders adopt does make a difference, doesn't it??

Maybe it will and maybe it wont, but if you are at that point, then grievance already exist, and it was not created by a speach.

[quote]

Quote:

The typical example is the peach at the end of your message. Do you realy think that the cause of palestian violence is Islam and not Israely represive policies designed to ethnically clense?

Both. The truth is it doesn't take much for Muslims to fight infidels. They have enough fuel from their holy book to suspect and hate infidels. Look at those separatist movements in most countries where Muslims are a minority. Does it happen in an equal degree with any other minority???
[quote]

Both? Oh really? You would think that ethnic cleansing and apache helicopters would be enough. How is there violence in middle east that would not othervise be there if there was no Islam?

And the second question is, what makes you say that there are separatist movements in MOST countries were muslims are minorty?

Quote:

http://atheism.about.com/library/world/KZ/bl_SriLankaBuddhismEarly.htm

I did not read the whole thing, but I did find some interesting passages:

A Damila of noble descent, named ELARA, who came hither from the Chola-country to seize on the kingdom, ruled when he had overpowered king ASELA, forty-four years, with even justice toward friend and foe, on occasions of disputes at law.

At the head of his bed he had a bell hung up with a long rope so that those who desired a judgement at law might ring it. The king had only one son and one daughter. When once the son of the ruler was going in a car to the Tissa-tank, he killed unintentionally a young calf lying on the road with the mother cow, by driving the wheel over its neck. The cow came and dragged at the bell in bitterness of heart; and the king caused his son's head to be severed (from his body) with that same wheel.

which you can find at:

http://lakdiva.org/mahavamsa/chap021.html#7

or

(king Dutthagamani) Arrived at Mahiyangana he overpowered the Damila Chatta. When he had slain the Damilas in that very place he came then to Ambatitthaka, which had a trench leading from the river, and (conquered) the Damila Titthamba; fighting the crafty and powerful foe for four months he (finally) overcame him by cunning,' since he placed his mother in his view. When the mighty man marching thence down (the river) had conquered seven mighty Damila princes in one day and had established peace, he gave over the booty to his troops. Therefore is (the place)called Khemäräma.

which is at http://lakdiva.org/mahavamsa/chap025.html#11

Aparently it is ok to use someones mother as a hostage in buddhism.

The whole book can be found at:

http://lakdiva.org/mahavamsa/chapters.html

Here are some interesting saying from buddha:

Having slain mother and father,
And two warrior kings,
Having destroyed a country,
With its governor,
Ungrieving goes a brahman.

Having slain mother and father,
And two learned kings,
Having destroyed the five ways of a tiger,
Scatheless goes the brahman.

These can be found on:http://www.edepot.com/dhamma4.html

Please tell me that Buddha does not advocate killing of one's own parents.

Just like Menj, you must be really that desperate to find flaw in Buddhism, mustn't you that you just jump unto the first thing that resembles proof? Laughing

Those are not Buddhist scriptures or at least are not commands/tenets/doctrines. From what I read, it was a historical account of what happened in the past. And you must be so deranged to conclude that the Buddha advocates killing of one's own parents from the verse above when he clearly speaks that the worst karma is for anyone to kill his/her own parents, among other crimes. Laughing

Ari

Well Buddha said what he said. It is clear in black and white, and there is no way you can go arround it.

As for mahavamsa, it is a bhuddist text, that i would think is treated by at least some reverence by buddhist worshipers (Sicen it is a chronisle of seemingly revered kings), and to try ond put a spin on it would put you in the same league as any muslim apologist.

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:21 pm Post subject:

Ari wrote:

Quote:

I do not see why legality is an issue since we are discussing religion, and buddhism does seem to encourage child prostitution in thailand:

http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/child.html

Big deal, child prostitution is a problem in many Asian countries including Muslim Malaysia!!!

http://registry.nipa.co.th/~direct/wd_main.php?p=www.googlecom

and the Phillipines:

http://registry.nipa.co.th/~direct/wd_main.php?p=www.googlecom

This infact proves my point that all third -- world countries are about equally opresive regardless of religion. Thank you for proving my point.

Quote:

A 1997 report put the number of child victims of prostitution at 75,000 in the Philippines. In Malaysia, more than half of those "rescued" from various sex establishments were under 18 years of age.

Child prostititution is not unique of Buddhist countries' problem, in fact you only mention Thailand. But we know for a FACT that honor killing is only conducted by Muslims in Islamic societies.

Well Buddhism encourages child prostitution, and Islam and Catolicism don't.

Something called "honor killings" is in muslim countries, but all thrid world countries have their share of women abuse. Consider Hinduism -- which seems much worse than Islam:

http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/hinduism/hindu_women.html

We already discussed thailand. There are many other places:

http://www.hrw.org/women/index.php

It seems to me that islam gets much more atention in the media, than is given other countries. And further more nobody blaims Buddhism -- even tho buddhism directly encourages child prostitution in thailand.

Quote:

So how can you say child prostitution a Buddhist tradition and not a Catholic or Muslim tradition??? You see your non-credibility here??

Quote:

In fact, acrding to the link above, child prostitution was legal untill 1996, which was changed due to western (christian) preasure.

More on Buddhism and women in thailand:

http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/buddhism.html

The fact is it is illegal, now. In Iran, marriage consent is 9 (an improvement from 7 years old), because they follow the example of Mo who wedded Aisha at 6 and had sex with her at 9. And the fact that Buddhists can change their bad ways according to time demands show that Buddhists have an open mind and are flexible. Can Muslims change the belief that Mo is the best example since he had sex with a 9 year old???

What ever Mohamed did, does not excuse what Buddhism is doing. You should renounce that part of buddhism right away.

Yeah Buddhist country can change, thanks to christian preasure and no thanks to buddhism.

Quote:

And for God's sake what's wrong with truism???? Don't you think we need more of it in this world today when we see Islamists go rampage every other day bombing markets, cars, school buses, hotels and discotheques??? Are you out of your mind? Shocked

The fact that people are not doing enough good shows that they need a religion that teaches them more truism instead of empty, adolescent jingoism, heroism, bravado, tit-for-tat, martyrdom and chauvinism the way Islam does!!! Does anyone else disagree with me here??? Sad

Truism is something that is too obvious to mention. No we do not need to remind anyone of anything that is too obvious to mention. I would think buddhist would be blowing up busses too if they were ethnically clensed by israel.

You are so surprisingly ignorant!!! Shocked

Look at what happens to the Tibetans!!! There has been a huge genocide going on in Tibet so that they are scattered around the world today!!! Have they responded in quite the same way as the Palestinians? Why not??? So doesn't it disprove your claim in the most compelling manner that not all religions are equally bad/good???
[quote]

You cannot possably compare the two. What tibetans are going trough is not even 1/100 of what palestinians are going trough in last month alone. For exampe, there is only 1000 political tibetan prisoners. That is a chicken shit, compared to 650,000 palestinian prisoners, inprisoned since 1677

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/Palestinian_Prisoners.html

Quote:

You still can't answer me why is the so "obvious" teaching of Buddhism IS NOT EASY TOLIVE BY?????? Why does it take a great deal of practice and inner strength to adhere to Buddhist high ethics???

Well stuff you showed me was as simple as "don't kill" and " dont steal" I did neither, and it was not too dificult.

Quote:

And don't say I have never shown you anything. I have shown you a lot of things about Buddhism which you will brush it off as something obvious, or of no value or vague (in other words too profound for your simpleton mind). You expect Buddhism to be as inane as Islam, giving you the list of do's and don'ts, well...you gotta live with it, precisely why Buddhism is appealing to intellectuals and the educated is because it is not like Islam or monotheism that just demands you to blindly believe in it. So you don't genuinely want to be shown anything good about Buddhism because you have made your mind that it is no better than Islam for the sake of saving your face. What can anyone do in that situation? Rolling Eyes

Ari

You really have not shown me anything worth while in buddhism. Everything you did post is abstract, or painfully obviousl.

Yes you keep saying it the way you keep saying that Buddhist scientist-confimed efficacious method a gimmick. Why am I not surprised??? Do you know what gimmick means? Can gimmick last 2500 years and is still showing its efficacy to millions of people who will attest to it? Is gimmick repeatable in such a prevalent accuracy and uniform result? Is gimmick observable and verifiable in the scientist lab?

The new scientific tests and all the buddhism balihoo is a gimic. While buddhism is quite old in the east, iin the west it is quite new, and it has been romanticized to hell. There is something atractive about Exotic cultures, while plane old western civilization is boring to many people. I somehow doubt the new scientific chans of old meditations really confirm anything any monk has ever predicted. It is merely a cool new sidefect to an old trick. Buddhism is not "verifiable", since nothing was vefiried, but something new was discovered instead. If some ancient buddhist said that meditation will increase activity in a certain part of the brain, than that would be something, but that did not happen.

Quote:

Tell me what is not worthwhile about the article "Cool Heroism." Tell me what is so bad or obvious about that article. And show us a few examples of non-obvious religious teachings that give something worthwhile so we have something to measure it against.

C'mon Hamu, you rarely back up your claim. We don't need a one-line response that doesn't prove or disprove anything here.

Where do I start!!! COnsider this pasage:

Quote:

To deal with feelings of anger and fear and frustration, we can start by finding relationality. As the Lakota Indians say, Mitakuye oyasin: "All beings are my relatives." When I'm particularly mad at George Bush and company for warmongering, I remember that in another lifetime he was my mother, and that even the most evil people were at some point my errant siblings. That immediately takes a certain edge off the anger.

WHAT!!!! You don't think that the first sentence it obvious? And does not the rest of it conjure up the image of a hippy who fried his brain with weed, and is soo stupid you just want to slap him arrount. I mean, when considering worl politics this guy talks about his feelings!!!

Look at this passage:

Quote:

By taking these three steps - finding one's relation to all beings, acknowledging the evil potential in one-self, feeling sympathy for the evil person - one gets the strength and energy to be an activist and to try, by voting and organizing, to stop harm caused by others. This is cool heroism: developing a tolerant, deliberate, and wise energy.

By fogivin others you get energy to be an activist? I don't think so! Forgivnes usally means you stop taking action against person you forgive, and you let go. And what tha hell is "wise energy". See it sounds like something meaningfull, but what?

Or this one:

Quote:

My wife once met Morihei Ueshiba, the man who founded aikido. After he did a demonstration where he left about seventeen big bruisers on the ground, she asked what his secret was for disarming his attackers without harming them. He giggled and told her, "A long time ago, I realized that every person was just my sister, my brother, my cousin. All those guys lying on the floor are my brothers, you are my little sister! Everybody is just one family." That's cool heroism.

Can you say "sentimental bullshit". Once the aikido master figured out that everybody is his brother, laws of physics changed in his favor, and he was able to beat up big people. BULLSHIT!

Phlease. Entire article is laughable.

Quote:

There are some claims about ridding yourself from strong emotions and such. I guess that is the most apealing part to the westerern civilization, so you were giving me buddhist sales pitch, but you totaly failed to mention Karma, reincarnation and other fine points of Buddhism that make buddhism a religion.

Yes what about it??? What's your problem with them? What's so not-worthwhile about them?

I am not criticizing karma, and reincarnation -- it is religion like any other -- I am criticizing you for failing to mention them, while giving me gimmics such as buddhist cat scans.

Quote:

And obviously Buddhism does give practical advice. It tells little thai girls that they have to become prostitutes to repay their debt to their parents so that they could be guys in the next life.

Really? Show us. Show us where in Buddhist scriptures that say such things. You've been making quite a bit of wild accussations here, Hamo, so wild in fact that it shatters your credibility to pieces (not that you had much credibility to begin with of course Smile

)

Ari

I have already sent you a link. Here is a quote from that site:

Quote:

The Buddhist view of women is one which puts them on a lower level than men. Women are looked down upon especially by monks who view them as merely dangerous objects that provoke sexual interest in men. Buddha advises his disciples not to look at them or talk to them. Buddhism acknowledges the view that women's natural role is for having children, but it excludes the notion of women being sexually desired or attractive.

The fragmented conception of the female body and the process of biological reproduction may be regarded as one of the major sources of gender bias which has implications for the social position of women. Although this bias does exist in Buddhist thought, the girls enter prostitution knowing that they are not being judged by their family... they know that they are taking the opportunity to make merit for their family and to purify their karma.

It can be found at:
http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/buddhism.html

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:26 pm Post subject:

Ari wrote:

Quote:

I have to disagree with you. I do not believe in moral relativism., and I think that 9 is way too young to mary and have sex. Kids at that age are not mature enough to know what they are getting into. They do not have enought experience to make such decisions of lifelong importance, they are impresionable and easily manipulated and their brains are not yet fully developed to have an intelect of an adult person. It is equivalent of tricking a little kid to give you all his money, only worse, since there are more serious consequences.

Good Hamo, then when will you honestly admit that Mo's action of having sex with a 9 year old was wrong and that it has inspired many Muslims to do the same thing since he is the best example for Muslims for all time? (that's why Menj keeps defending this act in the first place, isn't it?)

What Muhamed did was wrong. But as to weather he inspires muslims to do the same, you, yourself pointed out that child prostitution is prominent in many third world countries -- muslim or othervise, so aparently Muhamed is not needed to inspire. So your claim still remains to be proven.

Quote:

You see now the strict relationship between belief and action?
Ari

As soon as you show some numbers backing your claim up, I will believe it.

Oriental Wisdom

Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 54
Location: South East Asia

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:45 am Post subject:

hamo_bu wrote:

Ari wrote:

Quote:

This is a very shallow understanding of Martial Arts, or Wu Shu as we said it in China.

Wu Shu is not just about kicks & punches.

There are four essential components in learning Wu Shu:

1) Ji Ben Gong (The Basics, normally Shaolin martial arts novices use at least 5 years just to complete the basics, that is, exercises aim at strengthening the muscles, speed up reflexes, stability of the lower body, agility, sense of direction/orientation, concerntration, flexibility, adapt to pains, etc)

2) Quan Fa Tao Lu (The fists movements, from start to end, the main thing itself)

3) Lian Qi (Accurate controlling of the breathing, synchronise the 'Qi' flow with the fists movements)

4) Xiu Xin Yang Xing (Cultivate of the heart, actually means the mind. A peaceful and calm mind is very imporatnt, as well implanting of the moral values. The highest level is to attain an internal peace of mind, that is immune to external distractions, avoid extreme emotions, to be humble & tame one's negative mindsets)

Those so-called Martial Arts Schools in the West, which only teaches you kicks & punches, are only after your money. If anyone has the impression that Martial Arts = Agression, then this is either the fault of the Master (who knows nothing or only after fast money) or the fault of the Disciple (who is shallow, just going after the physical kicks & punches).
_________________
There are Wrongs and if one doesn't learn and change, this is indeed a great mistake!
(Confucius, China - Lun Yu . Wei Ling Gong)

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:11 pm Post subject:

This is third time I am writing this coz my computer keeps crashing. BAH!

adnan wrote:

yes Ari, its the core question - hamo thinks its wrong of FFI demonize Islam, but its OK for Quran to demonize non-muslims, I'll be on his tail for this.

Hamo,
First, thanks for admitting that Mohammed was a pedophile.

I never claimed othervise. Muhamed is a pedophile just like many people in the third world countries are.

Quote:

There is a distinction between a religious text that is 1400 years old and a political movement that is trying to demonise muslims.

What distinction? So what if the Quran is 1400 years old? What makes it invalid? Eienstine's theories are 50 years old, Archimedes principle is 2300 years old, what makes them invalid? Are you saying after 1400 years what FFI says, wont matter? Are you saying the older something becomes, the more invalid it becomes?

You are comparing religion to activist site to scientific principle. That is like comparing a love poem to calculus. Difference between religion and activism are obvious:

1. Religion is vague and mystical – Political activism is specific and well defined.
2. Religion strives to get worshipers to worship god – this site strives to act against Islam and Muslims.
3. Any passages that are against other religious groups in any religion are there incidentally and merely reflect prevailing attitude of people of that time. Hatred is not point of religion, while hatred seems to be point of FFI.

Quote:

As soon as people become poor, they blame the "other side" for their problem, and and crime, or war folows.

Explain what problems of the Sunnis or sunni terrorists were solved by Shia doctors being killed in Pakistan. Explain why India being a very poor country, still has lesser violence than Pakistan. (even out the population numbers as 150 million people, as opposed to 1 billion people, about 7 times more population should mean 7 times more violence, but is it?).

First of, I said that poverty causes violence. I did not say that violence solves problems, therefore your question about what problems are solved by killings of doctors make no sense.

Second, I researched and could not find specific numbers, but there is great deal of sectarian violence in India. While in Pakistan between 1989 and 2003 some 1800 people died in secterian violence, 2000 people died in one incident between muslims and Hindus in India. And muslims are not the only oppressed party in India. Sikhs and Christians are as well. Acording to this 790 people died in 2000 alone in police custody in Punjab province (where Sikhs live):

http://www.sikhcoalition.org/HumanRights4.asp:

Quote:

hamo_bu wrote:

adnan wrote:

Did they come from religion or not? yes/no?

NO!!!
They came from people, and were eventually found in religion.

First you said that Stoning didn't come from religion, then you said, it was eventually found in religion. Fine, you're saying that Stoning was first invented by Humans and then Mohammed copied it into the Quran. How does that take the blame off Quran?

Because Quran did not cause stoning, but merely excused it. What ever you want to do, you could find excuse in quran.

Quote:

Like I said, Quran and Hadith are flexible documents.

flexible in what way? In what way is the "Kill the apostate", or "Stone the adulterous person" hadith flexible?

I said Quran and hadith are flexible, not parts of kuran and hadith. For every intoleran passage, you can find one that is tolerant – as you probably know.

Quote:

You said that Quran says kill unbelivers. Unbelivers were not killed.

yes they were. they've been killed in the past, and by those who strongly beleived in Islam.

Still – not more than other religions, but in fact less so. The fact that there are non-muslims living with muslims after more than a milenium of rule should tell you that your passages really have no significance.

Quote:

Aparently genocides hav nothing to do with holly books and everything to do with socio-economic factors.

Nothing to do with holy books?? 6 million Jews massacared were by Hitler - divinely inspired, in his own words. Your comments?

What do words of Hitler have to do with holy books?

Quote:

keep in mind that stoning a woman for adultery, and burning woman for dowry are same crimes -- if diffrent in technicality

They sure are, but you didnt see the big difference - while a Stoning is authorized by an Islamic government, burning a woman for dowry is not authorized (you're just waiting for the moment when all muslim countries become secular, are'nt you? So am i).
Secondly, anyone who stones a woman for death is not punished - its not considered a crime in Islamic countries to stone a woman for death - while its a crime everywhere to burn a woman for dowry (how could you even give this example?)

Well actually stoning law applies to both sexes. And I do not see why the legality is the issue when we are discussing religion. I would think that a degree to which women are prosecuted is more important.

Quote:

What are your reasons for being against Islam?

Because it teaches Muslims that I'm a bad person to have left islam and that my good non-muslim friends are all bad people who will burn in Hell. Also, because it teaches the same hatred to Islamic terrorists who put my life in danger.

I am sory to hear that about your life. I had some problems with the Christian intolerance, many. People are having problems with jewish intolerance in Israel or Bhudist inolerance in burma. It is all same human nature.

Quote:

Well obviously it is not hard for Serbs and Spaniards to ethnicly cleanse, why is it hard for muslims then -- especialy if Hadith and quran say so?

good question, answer it yourself.

Does that mean that you concide my point that Ethnic violence has nothing to do with religious teachings?

Quote:

Religion is not an organized political affort to demonize any one groups of people.

I'll replace the word religion, by ISLAM, since all religions are not obviously equal. If a religion teaches a man to attack his children and kill them, it cant be in the same pool as Bhuddism.
So, correcting, you should have said: ISLAM is not an organized political affort to demonize any one groups of people.
Well it sure is. Does Islam demonize non-muslims? Why does it say "they are not your friends, they must be taxed with special tax, they are hated by Allah and setenced to hellfire". How do you say it doesnt demonize any group of people? Infact Islam demonizes the LARGEST group of people in the world - 5 billion non-muslims.

This is not much different from other religions. In USA Christians will harass you on the street or at your doorstep, telling you how you are a worthless sinner and that you will burn in hell unless you accept jeeeehzus into your heart. And in Burma Buddhist are forcing non-buddhist to build Buddhist temples and then they take away their land.

Quote:

FFI is a concious effort to demonise inocent people.

No, its not. It doesnt demonize Innocent people. What makes you think so?

Quote:

Religions are taken with a huge hill of salt -- even by a believers and they are open to various interpretations

Then take FFI with a mountain of Salt, as its also open to various interpretations.

Quote:

FFI poses to be intelectual argument, when infact it is baseless speculation.

First part is correct, but how is FFI baseless speculation? Is Quran not baseless speculation?

Quote:

Religion speaks vaguely on huge range of subjects, while FFI seaks specifically about one specific subject -- how muslims are evil.

Wrong! You lied! Where does FFI say that Muslims are evil ? lol

I will answer with all those above in one swoop.

This is a passage from FFI I posted previously:

http://main.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/assassinations.htm

Quote:

They (Muslims) lie to gain advantages, especially in the West as long as Islam is in the minority and as long as it is weak. But as soon as Islam become powerful, all that sweet talk of tolerance is put aside, the mask will be off and the real face of Islam as evinced by its founder will become manifest. Then those phony smiles give way to showing the fangs. This is precisely how the Prophet himself acted. When he was in Mecca and weak, he spoke of tolerance, but when he became powerful he forgot all that talk and started his campaign of genocide of the Jews and the Christians of Arabia.

Doesn’t this passage clearly state that muslims are evil and are not to be trusted.

Here is another quote from
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/Magnan30827.htm

Quote:

The world, and especially the secular left--Western apologists for Islam--should remember that it was the Arab that tried to invade Europe before the Crusades ever started and, fortunately, the Arab was soundly defeated for his arrogance, pride and greed. And the left (and the Nation of Islam in particular!) should also not forget that it was the Arab that originally enslaved Africa, not the US. Now is the time for the rest of the world to unite to defeat Arab imperialism and fascist Islam once and for all. Islam is nothing more than a religious cult started by a charismatic and cunning Arab. Indeed, this Arab was a conniver, a liar, a thief, an assassin, a pedophile and a quack.

This passage is clear hatred against Arabs (which are only 20% of Muslim population or so) and not criticism against Islam.

Author also blames Christian plight in Burma on Muslims when Burma is a Buddhist country.

And there is more:

Quote:

Yes, Islam can be defeated by force. “One who lives by sword will die by sword”. For example, it would be easy to invade Saudi Arabia and take control of its oil fields, which is the main source of the cult's income, and then use this income to fight Islam.

Quote:

We must put under surveillance suspect Muslim businesses, lest they fund or become facades for terrorist activities.

and

Quote:

We must be overly careful of zealot Muslims applying for sensitive jobs where they could cause a lot of harm such as Defense, NASA, Heath professions, Aviation, Water facilities, etc. (Is an avowed Muslim bus driver safe?).

The three passages above are clear call to mistrust and prosecute Muslims.

Oh this page:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/abulkasem30729.htm

Quote:

No wonder, we see many of these neo-Islamists are hell bent to establish mosques in every suburb of infidel countries where they have planted their nascent root, including Australia. No wonder we see them, every now and then, exhorting Islam in various radio-stations.

Yeah, how dare they promote their religion.

Quote:

We see them knocking frequently at the doors of many Muslims to invite them to mosques for religious discussions. And what discussions are being held there? Surely, it is not the discussion about the reform of Medicare in Australia, neither it is a discussion about the impending hike in University fees or anything like that sort-- matters that concern most infidel Australians.
They will invariably deal with Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan….etc. With passionate and tearful speeches they will call the near ‘brothers’ to donate generously in funds (such as MuslimAid, Australia) to help those distant ‘brothers.’ They have so much of sympathy, love, and tears for those far-away ‘brothers,’ but have no heart for the real sinner infidel Australians who have given them a chance to contribute generously to their Islamic brothers in those places.

now if this is not stereotyping bigotry than I do not know what is.

Quote:

Neither do they have any tear left to mourn the merciless slaughter of 88 Australian (infidels, of course) in the wake of Bali bombing.

And infact Australian muslims are responsible for Bali. -- They are all obviously brown people(could not resist the sarcasm). I am from bosnia, and Christians there did great injustice to me and people. Not a single American Christian felt any responsibility for it. Not only that, it would be considered absurd if I were to ask American Christians for apology for what their Bosnian bethren did. But muslims are all brown people. It is ok to assume that they are all the same.

Quote:

Ten years ago, it was rare to find a hijabi woman in any street of Sydney.
The situation is quite different now. Go to any rail-station, shopping centre, eating stall, college, university, etc., you will invariably notice a hijabi woman standing nearby. Many Islamists openly declare that all Muslim women must cover themselves in (ugly) hijab and cloak no matter what others may think of them.

How dare those muslims live among us in greater numbers (more sarcasm from me).

Quote:

The Islamists started their ‘Dakwah’ (religious invitation) with fervent zeal. Regular monthly meetings were held in mosques and in private houses to spread the beautiful teachings of Islam.
In reality, those meetings were designed by the clever Islamists to program the simple-minded Muslims not to eat at McDonalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Pizza Hut…..but to promote the Muslim eateries, even though these so called halal eating-stations were unhygienic, distasteful, rodent and cockroach infested.. But never mind such unpleasantness and poor foodstuff, Allah’s food is more valuable than the clean, hygienic and nutritious infidel, non-halal , impure, unholy junks.

Aparently this author finds muslims filthy , and is appalled how they wasn’t to stick to their culture, and not become more like white people.

There is more of the article but it is quite long, and I believe I made my point.

Quote:

There are many diffrence between organized political effort, and nebulous religious text promising mostly a reward in the afterlife.

Organized Political effort? LOL. Ali Sina might be glad that you called FFI a political movement, but I'll ask you: How is FFI a political movement? Who is its President? When were the last elections held in FFI? Who are the officers who run FFI and where is its headquarters? This wont do Hamo, not with me.

I said political effort- not a country. Political effort is effort for political aim. FFI is trying to eradicate islam is it not? Isn't that a political aim?

Quote:

You cannot demonize all muslims based on a cult or two.

Again, FFI does not demonize all Muslims, please take the word "ALL" out of your phrase "all muslims". Its just some Muslims who make life Hell for everyone, and they do get their teachings from Islam. Thats the whole point of FFI and there's a big difference between your perception of FFI and its real image.

I would think that quote like:

Quote:

and

Quote:

We must put under surveillance suspect Muslim businesses, lest they fund or become facades for terrorist activities.

seem to target all muslims to me.

Quote:

there is Bias agains Muslims on American TV.

1) I wouldnt be surprised! If 4 American muslim females came on American TV (and they did) and said that suicide bombers would go to Hell, how could the American TV be blamed for having any bias against Muslims?

How does your example show that US media has no bias against muslims?

Quote:

2) There is Bias against non-Muslim in Quran and Hadith.

Yeah, like in all religions.

Quote:

It's hard to escape the conclusion that it's Ressam's ethnicity that made him so much more newsworthy.

The 9/11 was a huge event and will never be forgotten, 19 (or almost) of the 19 hiackers were ARABS, so I wouldnt be surprised if Arab terrorists are being paid more attention.

Actually the link I provided was about event that happened BEFORE 9/11 and AFTER Oklahoma city bombing, so according to your satement above media should be paying MORE attention to two Christian terrorists and not less.

Quote:

It is demonising muslims without trying to explain complex causes of violence in Muslim world.

Ahaan? Can YOU explain the causes of Violence in the Muslim world? You say poverty is a big blamer. India is one of the most poor countries - where is the violence there?

Adnan

Acually there is plenty of violence in India.

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:15 pm Post subject:

Oriental Wisdom wrote:

With regard to the Nanjing Masscare (December 1937) by Japanese troops, no single Chinese, even the most anti-Japanese Chinese ultra-nationalists, ever blame that historical 'worse than beast' atrocities on Buddhism.

Those atrocities were results of Japanese ultra-right-wing militaristic fascism, not Buddhism.

Even me, as a Chinese, cannot believe that someone actually trying to blame Buddhism as the 'spiritual' cause for Nanjing Masscare.

Well situation is aplicable to most muslim violece as well. In fact all violence has real world causes. Islam is, for example, blamed for palestinin resistance, when infact it is clear response to Israely ocupation.

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:23 pm Post subject:

Ari wrote:

adnan wrote:

yes Ari, its the core question - hamo thinks its wrong of FFI demonize Islam, but its OK for Quran to demonize non-muslims, I'll be on his tail for this.

Adnan, it's entertaining to see how you keep showing hamo the folly of his position, justifying one evil and demonising another much lesser "evil" that is in response to the first evil. Laughing

Whow adnan, you have a chier-leader.

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:25 pm Post subject:

Ari wrote:

Quote:

ZEN BUDDHISM ORDERS THE DEAHTS OF 40 MILLION ASIANS in World War Two.

Right some Zen priests abused Zen some 50 years ago.

And I have to add one thing, other religious followers have the willingness and capacity for self-criticism. They are willing to look at their bad pasts, denounce them and move on leaving those bad things behind... Muslims don't. When did we ever hear an Islamic religious leader denouncing the massacres of Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, Zoroastrians by Muslims in the past?

Ari

I never heard you denouncing any buddhist masacres. All you do is point finger of muslims for something else they have done trying to change the subject.

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:28 pm Post subject:

Ari wrote:

Quote:

you quoted a few Islamophobic "authorities", with a sprinkle of neutral pages to lend some legitimacy to your "list". As it turns out, you owe an apology to 1.3 billion people all around the world for falsely accusing them of committing "genocide". How does that feel?

Yeah...yeah Menj, anybody exposing Islam's dark history is an Islamophobe. Of course, how could we not think so??!! Shocked

Very convincing. There are millions of Islamophobes out there who will testify the same things that happened to their ancestors and culture and they don't even know one another! They are just collectively envious of the greatness of Islam for no reason whatsoever.

Gee...how could I not have thought about it?

Ari

Ari don't try and weasel out of it. It is your responsability to come up with honest and unbiased sources.

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:30 pm Post subject:

Ari wrote:

ultraman agul wrote:

Ari wrote:

Yeah...yeah Menj, anybody exposing Islam's dark history is an Islamophobe.

I am questioning your use of "authorities" who are not known for their friendliness, impartiality or scholarship integrity to Muslims in general.

Yah Ari, but Using BJP source on islam, C'mon

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:34 pm Post subject:

Oriental Wisdom wrote:

I dunno. Everything you said sounds nice and spiritual, but I would think that kicking and punching would be primarily about...well kicking and punching. If you want to become more spiritual trough physical activity, how about balet, Or nice game of basketball.

adnan

Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 3:26 pm Post subject:

hamo,

Quote:

Muhamed is a pedophile just like many people in the third world countries are

great, great. yes. He's also the role model of 1 billion people in the World and you say we are wrong to criticize Islam.

Quote:

1. Religion is vague and mystical – Political activism is specific and well defined.

What is vague about islam, what part of it? It has a lot of hatred towards non-muslims which you dont deny.

Quote:

2. Religion strives to get worshipers to worship god – this site strives to act against Islam and Muslims.

Wrong and incomplete.
Why do you ignore the massive amount of hate in Islam? Does not Islam strive for that? Stop saying "religion" when you talk about Islam, because Islam is the worst religion, its like saying "the man" when you really should say "the serial killer".

Quote:

this site strives to act against Islam and Muslims.

1) So? Does not Islam strive against non-Muslims?
2) In what way does this site strive to act against Muslims?

Quote:

Hatred is not point of religion, while hatred seems to be point of FFI.

Now you're changing your statements, you have admitted before that Islam contains HATRED.

Quote:

I never denied that hatefull ayats exist in Quran

reference: here

So you said before that "I dont deny Hateful ayats in Quran" and now you say "Hatred is not the point of Islam" (please stop slipping by saying religion when you should really be saying ISLAM) ?

So explain this contradicting and change of your statements, and make up your mind whether Islam contains hatred or not.
Again, STOP saying "RELIGION" when you should really say "ISLAM".

[maybe ur computer has a virus thats why its rebooting]

My main issue with you is that you ignore the hate in Islam that it has for non-muslims, but blame FFI for the hate it has against Islam. I'll make sure we stick to this issue.

Quote:

What ever you want to do, you could find excuse in quran.

Stop saying inaccurate statements, please. I thought i made it clear with you.
Can I find any excuse in Quran to skin you and burn you alive? Where is that certain Quranic ayat?
Where is my Quranic excuse to have a plate of roast bacon with white wine? etc.etc.

Quote:

For every intoleran passage, you can find one that is tolerant – as you probably know.

So what? If Quran says "Skin a man alive and roast him to death" and then says "Give the man a dozen roses", how does the "good" ayat nullify the harm caused by the bad ayat?
If I said "Kill everyone who drives at 50 mph" and then I said "Give roses to those who drive at 35mph", does that mean I'm innocent ?

Quote:

What do words of Hitler have to do with holy books?

Holy books are thought be DIVINELY INSPIRED.
Hitler thought he was DIVINELY INSPIRED.

Do you now see the words "DIVINELY INSPIRED" loud and clear, in both instances or do I have to make them more clear?
To remind you, I mentioned hitler when you said: "Aparently genocides hav nothing to do with holly books and everything to do with socio-economic factors. "

Quote:

Well actually stoning law applies to both sexes. And I do not see why the legality is the issue

Doing psychoanlysis of your post, you seemed to say "Oh you know nothing! The stoning applies to both sexes!! but yea.. blah blah"
DUH, OFCOURSE the stoning applies to both sexes, did you expect I didnt know this ? Man, you're screwed up.. badly.
But anyway, going:

Quote:

Any intolerent religions must be fought against, and must not be tolerated.

Quote:

Again, your lame excuses for Islam.
Adnan: Islam is bad.
HAmo: So is Christianity!

wtf is that?
Adnan: Hitler was bad.
Hamo: So was Mohammed.

.... ? Is this your way of debate ?

Islam is BAD, yes? Does pointing out that Christianity is bad, save Islam's face in any way?

Quote:

They (Muslims) lie to gain advantages

Islam ALLOWS and actually ADVISES Muslims to lie for the sake of Islam, FFI said nothing but facts here.

Quote:

Doesn’t this passage clearly state that muslims are evil and are not to be trusted.

Well, I'd say a Muslim should not be trusted with protecting America, since he is advised by his religion to lie.
There you go, I stand behind my words. Do you have any problems with this?

Quote:

You missed out when we were talking about this. See here

Quote:

We must put under surveillance suspect Muslim businesses, lest they fund or become facades for terrorist activities.

It says SUSPECT Muslim business. Is that wrong to say ?!?!?!!?
If Hamo is suspected to be a serial thief, he should be put under surviellance.
Is that wrong to say ?

Quote:

The three passages above are clear call to mistrust and prosecute Muslims.

QURAN says the SAME things about NON-Muslims.

Quote:

Yeah, how dare they promote their religion.

So you mean, there's nothing wrong in promoting a religion, which contains hateful ayats in its book, and whose founder was a pedophile ?

Quote:

now if this is not stereotyping bigotry than I do not know what is.

Quran is full of it and you agree. Why blame us then? We're just pointing the finger back to Islam.

Quote:

Aparently this author finds muslims filthy , and is appalled how they wasn’t to stick to their culture, and not become more like white people.

Again, Quran finds non-Muslims filthy(NAJIS).

Your comments ?

Quote:

I said political effort- not a country. Political effort is effort for political aim. FFI is trying to eradicate islam is it not? Isn't that a political aim?

I'm trying to eradicate Islam becuase it teaches Muslims that I must be killed since I'm an apostate. Any questions?

Quote:

Yeah, like in all religions.

When will you learn that 2 wrongs dont make .... ? a right.

Adnan
_________________
O Muslims, Leave Islam. When Allah asks you "Why did you leave Islam?", tell him "Because, You said in Quran 2:256,'there is no compulsion in religion'."

syamal

Joined: 08 Nov 2002
Posts: 388

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:48 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Here we are not protectorate nor preacher or defender of Christianity or
Budhism or any other belief system. If you have problem wih any other
faith system, pleae visit their website and place your argument. Here we
brought charges against mr muhaMAD & his bloody book kuran. Here we
are charging islam for religeous war, genocide, terrorism & violent attitude
to other faith. Here we are convicting mahaMAD as a warmonger, pedophile, serial killer & liar. Never he was a messanger or passenger of
god. God has no business with this arabian mad man. As a muslim your
duty is to defend muhaMAD & refute our argument. Dont mess around
here by pointing fingure what Hitler & stalin did, what Japaneese & burmise
budhist did, what India did to sikhs in prison in Punjab. We are no one's
custodian here.

Mullah Mo

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 470

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:48 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Well Buddhism encourages child prostitution, and Islam and Catolicism don't.

please tell us where in The Dhammapada or any other Buddhist text dose it condone child prostitution??

hamo_bu

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 163

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:06 pm Post subject:

Oh no. You have cut our 90% of everything I wrote. Do I assume that you agree with it?

adnan wrote:

hamo,

Quote:

Muhamed is a pedophile just like many people in the third world countries are

great, great. yes. He's also the role model of 1 billion people in the World and you say we are wrong to criticize Islam.

True, But you are yet to prove that his example creates pedophilia around the Muslim world, or that he worse than other prophets of other religions.

Quote:

1. Religion is vague and mystical – Political activism is specific and well defined.

What is vague about islam, what part of it? It has a lot of hatred towards non-muslims which you dont deny.

Islam is vague, because it is contradictory, and on top of that it talkes about god, and afterlife and other unproven out of this world speculation.

Quote:

2. Religion strives to get worshipers to worship god – this site strives to act against Islam and Muslims.

Why do you ignore massive amount of love in islam? Doesn’t islam strive for that too? You not only singled out hate in Islam unfairly, you singled out Islam unfairly. Like I said – other religions are just like Islam. It is not fault of islam, that it is the way it is. Islam was written by very uneducated, primitive and politically incorrect people. Further more, most people that belive in islam are uneducated primitive and politically incorrect too, but guess what: That is true of all religions! You have taken Islam, put it under a microscope, and said “look how barbaric it is”. That is fine, I have no problem with that, but than you said “All these problems involving muslims today must be caused by Islam”. With that, you not only hid whatever crimes are commited against muslims by USA and Israel (and those are numerous), you put an unfair stigma on muslims.

Quote:

this site strives to act against Islam and Muslims.

1) So? Does not Islam strive against non-Muslims?
2) In what way does this site strive to act against Muslims?

Part of Islam do strive against unbelievers. Parts of Islam are supportive of unbelievers. This site is against Islam and muslims in it’s entirety. I have already posted clearly hatefull quotes, most of which you deleted, but hopefully you can see that my FFI quotes are as incriminating as your Quran and hadith quotes..

Quote:

Hatred is not point of religion, while hatred seems to be point of FFI.

Now you're changing your statements, you have admitted before that Islam contains HATRED.

Quote:

I never denied that hatefull ayats exist in Quran

Think about it and you will see that there is no contradiction. Just because Islam contains hatred that does not mean that point of Islam is hatred. My car has a CD player, but the point of my car is transportation, and not listening to music. Same with Religion (and I will stop calling Islam religion when you prove that Islam is worse than other religions), Islam has hatefull statements towards non-muslims, but point of religion is to get to paradise by worshiping god, and not religious hatred.

Quote:

[maybe ur computer has a virus thats why its rebooting]

My main issue with you is that you ignore the hate in Islam that it has for non-muslims, but blame FFI for the hate it has against Islam. I'll make sure we stick to this issue.

I do not ignore hate in Islam, but I state that hate is not the point of Islam. Hate is the point of FFI. All FFI does is campaign against Islam, and muslims too a lot of time. FFI does nothing about alcohol and substance abuse like islam does. FFI does not specify any silly rituals like islam does. FFI does not even tell me if there is anything after death, and Islam has plenty of material on that. All FFI does is rant against Muslims and Islam.

When I was a kid in bosnia, I went to religious school every weekend for a little over a year. I was thought to memorize Quran, pray, some Arabic letters, pillars of Islam etc. I was never taught to slay unbelievers, or abuse women or anything like that. I am not denying that those violent passages do not exist, but obviously they were not important enough that I did not get to them in a year study. In contrast to that, all FFI does is rant against the Muslims. Do you see diffrence between Islam and FFI now?

Quote:

What ever you want to do, you could find excuse in quran.

Interestingly enough I saw Muslim eat pork and drink alcohol when its served to them. Their understanding of Islam was that it is bigger sin to throw away food, than it is to eat pork and drink vine, so they would consume those if there were no other alternative but to throw food away. See how flexible Islam is?

As for skinnig me alive, it has been some time since I have read Hadith and quran to be able to find pasages that would allow you to do that. If you merely wanted to kill me, however, you will have plenty excuses in Islam. First, I stopped believing in god – that would do me in right there. If that is not enough – I have had sex outside marriage. If that does not do it – well I have been drunk on occasion. If it’s still not enough, as a kid I said “fuck god” many times (that was popular thing to do long time ago in a communist country where I lived). With all this incriminating evidence I am sure you have a fine selection of choices for my slow and painful murder.

Quote:

For every intolerant passage, you can find one that is tolerant – as you probably know.

Yes you would be innocent since you did not do anything but talk.

Quote:

What do words of Hitler have to do with holy books?

Hitler could have thought he was God almighty, he is still would not be connected to any religious scriptures. You still have not established a logical link between Hitler and any holly book. You cannot establish logical connection using two same words in two diffrent sentences.

Here is an example of what you did:

I am SOMEWHAT TALL.
That tree is SOMEWHAT TALL
Therefore that tree must be somehow responsible to something I did.

Do you see fallacy of your argument?

Quote:

Well actually stoning law applies to both sexes. And I do not see why the legality is the issue

I did not say “Oh you know nothing”, and I did not expect you not to know that. I do not see how you reached that conclusion from anything I wrote.

Quote:

Any intolerent religions must be fought against, and must not be tolerated.

The question is does religion cause violence or human nature? Even in science there are examples of persecution. When Darvin came up with his theory of evolution, not soon after social Darwinism emerged. Social Darwinism was used to excuse all kinds of racist actions, policies and beliefs. Point is you cannot stop violence by simply stopping religions.

Quote:

Again, your lame excuses for Islam.
Adnan: Islam is bad.
HAmo: So is Christianity!

Well if Islam is bad as Christianity, why are you singling out Islam as the worst one.

Quote:

wtf is that?
Adnan: Hitler was bad.
Hamo: So was Mohammed.

.... ? Is this your way of debate ?

Actually I do not know what you are talking about. I have never seen this second part of your mock dialogue. Are you confusing me with someone?

Quote:

Islam is BAD, yes? Does pointing out that Christianity is bad, save Islam's face in any way?

YES!!!!! If all religions are equally bad, then it is unfair of you to single out and stigmatize Muslims.

Quote:

They (Muslims) lie to gain advantages

Islam ALLOWS and actually ADVISES Muslims to lie for the sake of Islam, FFI said nothing but facts here.

You sound like a Muslim apologist trying to defend slaughter that Muhamed did on jews by demonizing jews. Tere is no excuse for spreading hatred and suspicion on innocent Muslim civilians. Because of you, some innocent person could be killed, denied a job, or worse.

Also the link you provided does not seem to lead any facts about lying muslims.

Quote:

Doesn’t this passage clearly state that muslims are evil and are not to be trusted.

Well, I'd say a Muslim should not be trusted with protecting America, since he is advised by his religion to lie.
There you go, I stand behind my words. Do you have any problems with this?

You have no problem with being blatantly racist, and spreading speculation that will endanger many innocent people? Than you are just as bad as Mo.

Quote:

You missed out when we were talking about this. See here

Oh yeah, a disclaimer.— that will make it better. It is like me saying to someone “ I should kill you, and then I should kill your family in a slow and painful way, but I will not do that, I am a peaceful person”. The fact that invasion of SA is mentioned as an option – even if it is supposedly rejected one – is bad enough and shows a great level of hostility. Pasage above is also clearly meant to intimidate and to incite a hostile reply.

Quote:

We must put under surveillance suspect Muslim businesses, lest they fund or become facades for terrorist activities.

It says SUSPECT Muslim business. Is that wrong to say ?!?!?!!?
If Hamo is suspected to be a serial thief, he should be put under surviellance.
Is that wrong to say ?

Well depends on how you read it. Is business suspected of being Muslim, or is Muslim business suspected of illegal activity. If business is suspected of illegal activity, than what is the point of putting adjective “Muslim” in there (unless you are spreading religious intolerance), and besides such business – regardless of religious affiliation – are already put under surveillance so the whole sentence would be meaningless. The first option, that business is suspected of being Muslim, seems more plausible. In any case, sentence clearly calls for distrust of Muslims.

Quote:

The three passages above are clear call to mistrust and prosecute Muslims.

QURAN says the SAME things about NON-Muslims.

Oh so now you find justification in Quran. By your implied admission FFI is as bad as you claim Quran to be? Funny thing is at the end of your post you told me “When will you learn that 2 wrongs dont make .... ? a right”

Quote:

Yeah, how dare they promote their religion.

So you mean, there's nothing wrong in promoting a religion, which contains hateful ayats in its book, and whose founder was a pedophile ?

Well all religions being equal, and having a whole freedom of religion thing, than there is nothing wrong for muslims to promote their religion.

Quote:

now if this is not stereotyping bigotry than I do not know what is.

Quran is full of it and you agree. Why blame us then? We're just pointing the finger back to Islam.

And by doing that you acknowledge that FFI is as bad as you claim Quran is. And obviously it is – There is no denying the quotes that I found.

Quote:

Aparently this author finds muslims filthy , and is appalled how they wasn’t to stick to their culture, and not become more like white people.

Again, Quran finds non-Muslims filthy(NAJIS).

Your comments ?

Well by agreeing that FFI is as bad as Islam, you then must realize that it is unfair to single out Muslims. When authors of FFI preach hatered, how do you expect an illiterate orphan from 1400 years ago to know any better. If FFI made same mistakes as muhammed, than that only shows that they bouth made same HUMAN mistakes – which are prejudice and bigotry.

Quote:

I said political effort- not a country. Political effort is effort for political aim. FFI is trying to eradicate islam is it not? Isn't that a political aim?

I'm trying to eradicate Islam becuase it teaches Muslims that I must be killed since I'm an apostate. Any questions?

Just one question: What makes you morally superior than Islam you are trying to Eradicate, and Muslims whose life you put in danger? Obviously you both have similar hateful propaganda (only Islam does other things as well, and FFI is only anti-islami).

Quote:

Yeah, like in all religions.

When will you learn that 2 wrongs dont make .... ? a right.

Adnan

I should have said “all religions and FFI”.

Another question: Do you agree with my previous point that Powerty -- and not religion -- causes violence? You seem to have deleted that part of our discussion so I never got the chance to hear your reply.

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