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Varanasi

Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 470

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 1:20 am Post subject: Problems

What are the problems of Buddhists? Are these not universla problems like anywhere else? Do not name me poor Buddhists. There also poor Christians and Muslims. Name me the radical Buddhist organisations like JI. Name me crooked and twisted sages like David Koresh,Sun Moon Yong, Jim Jones. Name me the mass suicides that Buddhism calls for such as the Heaven Gate cult. Name me the Buddhist equivalent Christian slaves that are created by these Christian cults. Name me the scandals and civil suits that Buddhist monastries are involved in likr the churches from Australia America and Canada. Name me the compesation that Buddhist temples have to pay just as the Boston RC church has to pay in millions of US dollars. If you cannot do so then Buddhists and Buddhism have no problems.

Spinoza

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 1:44 am Post subject: Re: Problems

Varanasi wrote:

If you cannot do so then Buddhists and Buddhism have no problems.

I beg your pardon? Buddhists face the same problems as many other nations. I see no difference in the childprotitution of Sri-Lanka and Tailand and that of countries like the Filipines or Bangladesh.

Ari

Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 976
Location: New York

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:41 am Post subject:

Quote:

[quote="ultraman agul"]

Ari wrote:

The problem is as we have said time and again you need your priority straightened out. Killing people for expressing themselves i far worse than bowing in front of human or dead objets.

For Islam, the concept of God and His Attributes is the priority. Nothing is more important than this.

What's the good of this when you kill more people than any other religious groups?

Quote:

I said I don't bow in front of a dead object. I face in the direction of the Ka'abah during my prayers, yes, but the Ka'abah does not have to be physically be in front of me when I am doing them. The same cannot be said for your co-religionists back at the Kek Lok Si Temple.

Well you are wrong. Unlike you, Buddhists don't have to worship anything. And they don't have to pray in the direction of anything. So which one is more idol-worshipping?

Again, you can't defend your practice/form of worship as better than others. Heed what EK said, just accept or denigrate both.

Ari
_________________
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." -Einstein

Mullah Mo

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 470

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:37 pm Post subject:

ultraman agul wrote:

Quote:

Provide us with some sources to back your claims.

I'm not the one who is claiming that Muhammad (P) "suffered" from epilepsy. Provide the evidence of your claim first.

Have a nice day.

- MENJ

Umm...........you said:

Quote:

That's probably because I don't bother answering polemical travesties which has no basis on historical fact. Besides, the claim of "epilepsy" towards the Prophet (P) has been succinctly dealt with here.

Since you’ve dealt with the accusations concerning Mo’s epilepsy tell us how it was dealt with. I went to that link and it seem that there are other issues it was addressing also and I’m sorry to say, I lost interest in further reading.

Egyptian Kafir

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 474

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:20 pm Post subject:

dear stone kisser..

when i first joined here....some people here Had a theory about you...that you are a closet JEW pretending to be a muslim in purpose of making muslims look like total idiots by your laughable defense of islam..I used to say 'nah no way..I think that he honestly try to defend his faith' ....but the more i talked to you, the more I began to doubt if this theory is true !!

as I just came to see your response to my quote here :

Egyptian Kafir wrote:

dear stone-kissing menj...

you Have 2 choices here :

1- to insitst that buddhist respect bowing to buddha figures is a pagan practice and worship...And accept that Muslim's idiotic circling of a cube and kissing a black rock is Also a pagan practise and worship, because Both practices involves usage of certain "dead objects" in respect, one is bowing to it and the other is kissing and circling it..

2- to acknowledge that its a mere act of respect of his figure and person, and so is the muslim acts during Hajj.

desperate attempts to claim that the 2 practices are not like each other won't work...

was this :

ultraman agul wrote:

http://www.understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=192

- MENJ

...

and you just repeated the same response later..

out of things to talk about or something?

what does that link have to do with my post?

that link talks about "why muslims face one direction during prayer"

the subject i am talking about was : the fact that Muslims circle a dead object , and kiss a dead object.

I do not talk about facing one direction during prayer, kiddo , I am talking about the fact that Muslims circle a dead object (kabah), and kiss a dead object (the black rock).

and you accuse buddhists of beeing pagans for bowing to buddha figures as a sign of respect for his person...thats while buddhism clrealy states the non importance of worshipping any deity ..because it wont help you in your suffering.

and that, Both practices involves usage of certain "dead objects" in respect, one is bowing to it and the other is kissing and circling it.

and gave you the 2 choices that any rational person should choose from before accusing others of something that exists in his religion...glass house proverb..remember it?

but no, your bile, blind hatred to buddhists , despite them having absolutely NO offence to your cult...prevents you from acknowledging this..even if it results in clowning yourself like this by your laughable responses...I just now recall how your blind hatred made you look like a total idiot in that thread when you went on a fever google search to see if there is anything to support your slander to buddhists, and blindly grabbed the first site that popped out in your face that contains an anti-buddhists quote...without eve bother reading what the hell is a site called "dribble glass, trivias, jokes" is about.

you'r a sad individual, menj...really.

<shakes head> .
_________________
“The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.” ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes

Mullah Mo

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 470

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:30 pm Post subject:

Dear Egyptian Kafir, I have bad news my infidel brother. Menj won’t be able to answer back today. It’s Friday and he’s at the Mosque praying. He’s asking Allah to kill us and send us to hell. “Oh Allah, kill the enemies of Islam and send them to hell.” LOL

ultraman agul

Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1302
Location: Dar al-Islam

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:26 pm Post subject:

Ari wrote:

What's the good of this when you kill more people than any other religious groups?

For heavens' sakes, would you stop nitpicking at this blatant stereotype of 1.3 billion people all over the world? I have explained countless times that Islam does not condone terror or killing of innocent civillians. It never has, and it never will. I really don't know how I am going to hammer this into your head kindly, so I am going to ignore your myopic arrogance-cum-ignorance at this point if you insist on obtuse descriptions of my fellow co-religionists.

Besides, this is a red herring, since we were never supposed to be talking about Islam in the first place....

Quote:

Well you are wrong. Unlike you, Buddhists don't have to worship anything.

Of course I'm "wrong", because you cannot stand the fact that I have been living near those idol-worshipping Buddhists as my friends and neighbours for as long as I can remember.

Quote:

And they don't have to pray in the direction of anything.

LOL, now that's a really funny one Laughing

You really should tell that to the KeK Lok Si Temple caretaker.

Quote:

Again, you can't defend your practice/form of worship as better than others. Heed what EK said, just accept or denigrate both.

I'm not "denigrating" anything, I am simply pointing out the facts that your so-called "logical religion" turns out to be just "one of the crowd", i.e. the "crowd" which you claim is "superstitious" and "backward", LOL. So once we have established that Buddhism is nothing more than a superstitious RELIGION which makes god out of clay, stone or plastic, it isn't so hard to knock down its tenets.

Cheerio!

- MENJ
_________________
Allah matlamat kami, Al-Quran perlembagaan kami, ar-Rasul ikutan kami, penentang Islam musuh kami, jihad jalan kami dan berkorban pada jalan-Nya adalah setinggi-tinggi pengorbanan

Last edited by ultraman agul on Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

ultraman agul

Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1302
Location: Dar al-Islam

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:31 pm Post subject:

Spinoza wrote:

.....him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race." Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5

Fantastic! Which is why the Qur'an said in the first part of that verse:

"We ordained TO the Children of Israel...."

So I guess it is true that the Children of Israel (i.e. the JEWS) have this law, but they have failed to practise it. Thank you for proving the point of the Qur'an!

Have a nice day!

- MENJ
_________________
Allah matlamat kami, Al-Quran perlembagaan kami, ar-Rasul ikutan kami, penentang Islam musuh kami, jihad jalan kami dan berkorban pada jalan-Nya adalah setinggi-tinggi pengorbanan

ultraman agul

Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1302
Location: Dar al-Islam

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:35 pm Post subject:

Egyptian Kafir wrote:

when i first joined here....some people here Had a theory about you...that you are a closet JEW pretending to be a muslim in purpose of making muslims look like total idiots by your laughable defense of islam..I used to say 'nah no way..I think that he honestly try to defend his faith' ....but the more i talked to you, the more I began to doubt if this theory is true !!

LOL, now I'm a Jew now, eh? Laughing

Quote:

as I just came to see your response to my quote here :

Egyptian Kafir wrote:

was this :

ultraman agul wrote:

http://www.understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=192

- MENJ

There is nothing further to add from the article I had given. It explains the matter beautifully.

Now instead of writing tons and tons of kalaam faarigh, you may choose to refute the link if you wish, as I fully endorse and agree with its contents.

Quote:

that link talks about "why muslims face one direction during prayer"

the subject i am talking about was : the fact that Muslims circle a dead object , and kiss a dead object.

It is related. The acts you have mentioned are for one single purpose only: to affirm the Covenent of God with Abraham (P) and his son Ishmael (P), in a unity of faith and action.

<snip rest of ad nauseam and ad hominem>

- MENJ
_________________
Allah matlamat kami, Al-Quran perlembagaan kami, ar-Rasul ikutan kami, penentang Islam musuh kami, jihad jalan kami dan berkorban pada jalan-Nya adalah setinggi-tinggi pengorbanan

ultraman agul

Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1302
Location: Dar al-Islam

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:48 pm Post subject:

Egyptian Kafir wrote:

but no, your bile, blind hatred to buddhists , despite them having absolutely NO offence to your cult...prevents you from acknowledging this..even if it results in clowning yourself like this by your laughable responses...

Look, I have been living next to Buddhists as my friends and neighbours for as long as I can remember. These people are certainly the most politest, kindest folk that I know, not to mention totally respectful towards Islam. When I told them about Ari's behaviour towards me in the forum, they were upset and angry about the whole affair, and they implored me to never judge all Buddhists by her Islamophobic actions. They in fact informed me that Buddhism teaches that all great Prophets - including the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) AS WELL AS Muhammad (upon whom be peace), are regarded as boddhisatvas, great teachers who would (as far as I can understand it) teach the Middle Path to their respective followers.

So don't try to accuse ME of "hatred, paranoia, and xenophobia". Look at yourself in the mirror. You don't live next to Buddhists, I do...and I will never harm a hair of their head. Why don't you ask Ari why does she display such rabid hostility towards the Prophet Muhammad, upon whom be peace, when her fellow co-religionists back here are telling me that Muhammad (P) is a boddhisatva! Laughing

Have a nice day.
_________________
Allah matlamat kami, Al-Quran perlembagaan kami, ar-Rasul ikutan kami, penentang Islam musuh kami, jihad jalan kami dan berkorban pada jalan-Nya adalah setinggi-tinggi pengorbanan

Spinoza

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 10:51 pm Post subject:

ultraman agul wrote:

Spinoza wrote:

Well, no, the strange thing is that the Quran claims these are the words of God (as you now also acknowledge).....whilst the Mishna Sanhedrin is NOT the words of Gods, it's the work op MAN. It's written by Rabbis, not the word of God....Mohammed propbably didn't know the difference between the Talmud and the Torah, that's why he had no problem putting these words into Gods mouth.

Smile

Do you hear what I am saying? You've just ACKNOWLEDGED the fact that the Quran claims something to be the word of God ordained to the jewish people which clearly was written by HUMANS.

p.s. For your information: Mishnah Sanhedrin was written around 200 a.d. and is NOT a revelation by God. So how can these words end up as divine revelation in the Quran?

ultraman agul

Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1302
Location: Dar al-Islam

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:03 am Post subject:

Spinoza wrote:

Well, no, the strange thing is that the Quran claims these are the words of God (as you now also acknowledge).....whilst the Mishna Sanhedrin is NOT the words of Gods, it's the work op MAN.

Of course the Mishah is the word of man, but that does not mean that it cannot be mixed with the true words of God Almighty. Even the Jews hold the Talmud writings as their "oral Torah", revealed by God to honest men who wrote these texts in their language.

Quote:

It's written by Rabbis

I know that.

Quote:

Mohammed propbably didn't know the difference between the Talmud and the Torah, that's why he had no problem putting these words into Gods mouth.

Of course it is interesting you have not shown how did the Mishnah arrived in Arabia, nor how did Muhammad (P) was aware of this text and "plagiarised" it, LOL. This has been touched before by bob, and I challenged him to show me how was the Talmud circulated in Arabia. Needless to mention, he meekedly backed out soon after.

Quote:

Do you hear what I am saying? You've just ACKNOWLEDGED the fact that the Quran claims something to be the word of God ordained to the jewish people which clearly was written by HUMANS.

I have acknowledged no such thing. I have, however, reiterated the stand of the Qur'an that it is the "Muhaymin" over the past scriptures and the Criterion to decide which is right and wrong. If this is the text to be found in the Mishnah, and the Qur'an affirms it, we have no problems accepting it as the word of God, as this must be one of the several verses that was manipulated by the Jews and Christians but which the Qur'an affirms its truth.

Quote:

p.s. For your information: Mishnah Sanhedrin was written around 200 a.d. and is NOT a revelation by God. So how can these words end up as divine revelation in the Quran?

Don't bother trying to teach me about the Judeo-Christian scriptures, boy. I know their history better than you would care to admit. My chief interest in the study of religions is the Judeo-Christianity tradition and related Semitic history.

- MENJ
_________________
Allah matlamat kami, Al-Quran perlembagaan kami, ar-Rasul ikutan kami, penentang Islam musuh kami, jihad jalan kami dan berkorban pada jalan-Nya adalah setinggi-tinggi pengorbanan

Spinoza

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:18 am Post subject:

Quote:

Wel you said it yourself: it's an oral tradition...there was PLENTY of jews in Arabia before Mo killed em or expelled them. So there's hardly any reason why I should explain how Mo could have learned of this. NO it's the other way around how could a 2nd century man written text all of a sudden rise to the status of the word of God...

Quote:

I have acknowledged no such thing.

Yes you did: "We ordained TO the Children of Israel...."

So who is 'we'? and what is 'we' saying to whom?

Quote:

I have, however, reiterated the stand of the Qur'an that it is the "Muhaymin" over the past scriptures and the Criterion to decide which is right and wrong. If this is the text to be found in the Mishnah, and the Qur'an affirms it, we have no problems accepting it as the word of God, as this must be one of the several verses that was manipulated by the Jews and Christians but which the Qur'an affirms its truth.

It's not a manipulated verse of any kind. It's an explanation of the Torah. Nothing more nothing less. The Talmud is not a revelation by God, so the Quran cannot be it's confirmation.

Mohammed must have heard this from his jewish compatriots and deemed it worthy of incorperation of his Quran...just like he incoraporated popular folklore about Jeses and Alexander the Great....Alexander the Great whom he also portays as a devout muslims...how ridiculous.

ultraman agul

Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1302
Location: Dar al-Islam

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:16 am Post subject:

Spinoza wrote:

Wel you said it yourself: it's an oral tradition...there was PLENTY of jews in Arabia before Mo killed em or expelled them.

So kindly show us the Arabic of the Mishnah, Mr. Theorist. I'm sure you can supply us with some Arabic sources of the Mishnah dating back to 6th century A.D.

Quote:

So there's hardly any reason why I should explain how Mo could have learned of this.

And there is hardly any reason why should I "listen" to your "explanations" which is nothing more than conjecture.

Quote:

NO it's the other way around how could a 2nd century man written text all of a sudden rise to the status of the word of God...

It was never the other way round. The Jews have always held the Mishnah to be holy, the "Oral Torah", so there is no question about its holiness FROM the Jewish perspective. The question only remains on how a 6th century Arab nomad somehow came to know of this phrase which was written in HEBREW and located a few thousand miles away in Palestine. Interesting question, no?

Quote:

Mohammed must have heard this from his jewish compatriots

Indeed, more of your fatutous theories, Mr. Theorist. Please do come back again when you decide to provide yours truly here with empirical and solid evidence, and not the conjectures of mental gymnastics within your mind.

Best regards.

- MENJ
_________________
Allah matlamat kami, Al-Quran perlembagaan kami, ar-Rasul ikutan kami, penentang Islam musuh kami, jihad jalan kami dan berkorban pada jalan-Nya adalah setinggi-tinggi pengorbanan

CroMagnon

Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 2112
Location: West Kafiristan

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:04 am Post subject:

menj wrote:

The question only remains on how a 6th century Arab nomad somehow came to know of this phrase which was written in HEBREW and located a few thousand miles away in Palestine. Interesting question, no?

Maybe he got it from the various knowledgeable jews and monks he came across during his life & journeys before he became a prophet?

See various links from:
The Prophet Muhammad
http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/English/Muhammad/Book/Millennium_Biography/TOC.htm

Quote:

The Millennium Biography of Muhammad
The Prophet of Allah

By: Grand Shaykh, Professor Hasan Qaribullah
Dean of Umm Durman Islamic University and Sammania Grand Shaykh

Chapter 8:
The Birth of the Last Prophet of Allah,
The Sealing of the Prophethood
http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/English/Muhammad/Book/Millennium_Biography/Chapter_008.htm

Quote:

THE KNOWLEDGEABLE JEW
Amongst the citizens of Mecca were several Jews, one of whom was knowledgeable of the scriptures. He knew from his learning and the signs of the time that the birth of a new prophet was imminent and anxiously awaited his arrival. On the night Prophet Muhammad, (sa) was born, a strange feeling came over him that prompted him to rush to the door of his house and ask some Koraysh tribesmen, who happened to be passing, if they had heard of any births that night. The tribesmen replied that they knew of none, so he asked them to go and find out then bring word to him. He felt sure that this was the night in which the new prophet had been born, and if his feelings were correct he knew he would indeed be able to recognize him by a special, prominent mark on his skin that lay between his shoulders.

Sometime later, the tribesmen returned to the expectant Jew and told him that a son had indeed been born to Lady Amina, the widowed wife of Abdullah, son of Abd Al Muttalib. The Jew asked them to take him to see the newly born and his mother, so in haste they made their way to Abu Talib's house. When they arrived, Lady Amina presented her darling son to them and as the cloth that covered him was gently rolled back the Jew saw the unmistakable mark and fainted. When he regained consciousness he announced the prophethood had been taken away from the Children of Israel and said, "O people of Koraysh, by Allah, he will conquer you in a way that the news will traverse both east and west." The mark the Jew referred to was circular and read, "There is no god except Allah, and Muhammad is His Prophet", and it was from this identifying mark that the sweet aroma of musk exuded.

Chapter 11:
The Early Years
http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/English/Muhammad/Book/Millennium_Biography/Chapter_011.htm

Quote:

It was time for the annual trip to Syria. Even though Hashim had secured pacts with tribes along the caravan route many years before, the journey was arduous and not without danger. With this in mind Abu Talib decided to leave his nephew behind thinking it was better for him to remain at home with Fatima and his other children. When the time came for the caravan to depart, Muhammad, who was now twelve years old, rushed up to him and threw his arms around him. Abu Talib never had the heart to refuse his nephew anything at all and so it was agreed that he would join him on the long trip north to Syria.

BUHAIRAH, THE MONK
After many weeks of arduous travel the caravan reached a place called Tayma, a village on the outskirts of Basra. It was there that a monk by the name of Buhairah lived alone in a hermitage that had been inherited by a succession of hermit monks. Over the centuries, important religious documents had been brought to the hermitage and left by his predecessors so Buhairah had made it his life's work to study them well and had become very knowledgeable. In the documents were prophecies that told of another prophet to come after Jesus, peace be upon him. The prophecies described in detail the time in which he would be born, his appearance, character and background and it was Buhairah's dearest wish to be blessed to live long enough to see him.

.... Buhairah made haste to greet the caravaners and invited them to eat with him; caravans had stopped there many times before, but Buhairah had never invited them nor yet any other caravaners to join him.

As they sat down to eat Buhairah looked at each one in turn, then asked if there was anyone missing from the party. They informed him that there was another, a boy, whom they had asked to tend the camels. Buhairah insisted that the boy should join them, and the caravaners felt embarrassed at their unintentional forgetfulness and so Muhammad was invited to join them. When he arrived, Buhairah observed his appearance and manners closely. After a while he questioned him and then asked him to swear by the idols of Mecca -- which was common practice amongst the Arabs. Muhammad refused saying, "There is nothing more hateful to me than to do that." The answers Muhammad gave Buhairah convinced him ninety-nine percent that the young boy, in whose company he was, was none other than the one prophesied in the scriptures to become the last Prophet of Allah.

Chapter 12:
Marriage
http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/English/Muhammad/Book/Millennium_Biography/Chapter_012.htm

Quote:

KHADIJAH, DAUGHTER OF KHUWAULID
... His uncle was delighted and told him Allah had sent him this blessing. Just before the end of the month of Dhul Hijjah, Muhammad, in the company of Khadijah's devoted servant Maysarah, set out on his first trip. Upon reaching a placed called Tayma, Muhammad and Maysarah sat down to rest under the shade of a tree not far from the hermitage of a monk named Nastura, who, surprisingly rushed out to greet him. After the exchange of greetings, Nastura kissed Muhammad's head and feet then said, "I believe you, and bear witness that you are the one Allah mentioned in the Torah." When Nastura saw the mark between his shoulders, he kissed him yet again and bore witness that Muhammad was to become none other than the Messenger of Allah, the illiterate prophet of whom Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, had prophesied would come. Then, he turned to Maysarah and told him, "He is the last Prophet, I wish I could be with him when he is called!" .

...
THE MARRIAGE BETWEEN MUHAMMAD AND KHADIJAH
Khadijah had been deeply moved and impressed by the things Maysarah told her. Her cousin, Warakah, who was well versed in the scriptures, also spoke highly of him and so she sent her friend, Nufaysah, to discreetly inquire why he had not married. ....

Chapter 14:
Ka'ba
http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/English/Muhammad/Book/Millennium_Biography/Chapter_014.htm

Quote:

THE RECONSTRUCTION OF KA'BA
... When it came to the removal of the Black Stone, a Syriac inscription -- the language of Prophet Abraham -- was unearthed. No one knew what it said so it was put to one side and shown later on to a knowledgeable Jew. To the wonder of all the deciphered inscription read: 'I am Allah, the Lord of Becca, I created her the day I created the heavens and the earth, the day I formed the sun and the moon, and I placed round about her seven inviolable angels. She shall stand so long as her two hills stand, blessed for her people with milk and water.'

So you see, Muhammad and his family & friends have been surrounded by people who knew the scriptures and several other languages; Muhammad and his family & friends have been hearing from jews and monks who were knowledgeable in the scriptures, already starting immediately after his birth, that he was the prophet as foretold in the scriptures... and now you want to make it appear as if they never heard of pre-islamic scriptures and could in no way have known what was written in them ... Rolling Eyes

There were knowledgeable jews and monks all around him who told him about the scriptures time and time again! ... and then we have to be surprised that indeed 'suddenly' Muhammad got 'divine revelations' ... Laughing

Sure sounds like a prophesy, eh? A self-fullfilling prophesy Wink

also interesting:

Chapter 9:
Life in the Desert
http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/English/Muhammad/Book/Millennium_Biography/Chapter_009.htm

Quote:

AL SHAIMA

Halima had an older daughter named Hudhafa, also known as Al Shaima. Al Shaima loved her new brother dearly and never had to wait to be asked to look after him. It was a very happy time for the entire family and Halima's foster child grew rapidly in strength and out grew other children of similar age. Halima's tribe in particular was famous for speaking pure Arabic and many of its tribesmen had become famous on account of their eloquent speech and poetry; it was in such an environment that the young Muhammad learned the art of the precise diction of pure Arabic, however he did not learn how to read or write.

Mmmm.. so apart from being told all his pre-prophet life by jews and monks who were knowledgeable in the ancient scriptures, that he would become the foretold prophet, he also was well aquainted with 'the art of precise diction of pure arabic'? Very interesting indeed....
_________________
Sheikh Ahmad al Kat'ani:
"every hour 667 muslims are converting to christianity"

Spinoza

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:35 am Post subject:

Quote:

So kindly show us the Arabic of the Mishnah, Mr. Theorist. I'm sure you can supply us with some Arabic sources of the Mishnah dating back to 6th century A.D.

Do you even understand the word 'oral'? OR will you claim next that these jews living in Arabia dind't speak Arabic? There was jewish tribes all over the place. We know cause it is described in great detail how he dealt with them and eventually murdered, expelled or enslaved and raped them.

I have no need to come up with an Arabic Mishna since he could just talk with the jews (en presumably he couldn't read or write remember) Anyway, your misunderstanding of the Mishna is comparable to Mahomet's confusion. Thus you have proven that even a literate muslim from the 21st century can make this mix up...don't worry: mistakes are human.

Quote:

And there is hardly any reason why should I "listen" to your "explanations" which is nothing more than conjecture.

Well, unless you provide me with a credible solution to this pickle, it's not merely 'conjecture'.....tell me how ELSE these words could end up in the Mishna...I mean if I were to claim all of a sudden that 'a horse, a horse my kingdom for a horse' or 'to be or not to be, that's the question' are my own words or even worse: they're the words of God, it wouldn't be mere conjecture to conclude I was talking out of my arse.

Quote:

It was never the other way round. The Jews have always held the Mishnah to be holy, the "Oral Torah", so there is no question about its holiness FROM the Jewish perspective.

Holy-Schmoly, the Torah is NOT the word of God...every JEW knows this. It seems only a cetain Arab from the 7th century apperntly could NOT distinguish between the jews talking about the Torah or the Mishna.

Quote:

The question only remains on how a 6th century Arab nomad somehow came to know of this phrase which was written in HEBREW and located a few thousand miles away in Palestine. Interesting question, no?

Well, there was plenty of jews around. So you should explain the exact opposite: how could a non devine writing contain the words of God? Why would God Parrot a bunch of jews from several centuries before?

Quote:

Are you saying Mohammed NEVER met jews? Never talked to them? Gee, this man spent half his life trying to convert, kill, rape and enslave jews.

Mullah Mo

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 470

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:15 pm Post subject:

ultraman agul wrote:

Islam does not condone terror or killing of innocent civillians. It never has, and it never will.

- MENJ

Please explain to me what you mean by innocent civilians. Are the unbelievers considered innocent??

CroMagnon

Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 2112
Location: West Kafiristan

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:42 pm Post subject:

Also interesting:

From:
The Prophet Muhammad
The Millennium Biography of Muhammad
The Prophet of Allah

Chapter 11:
The Early Years

By: Grand Shaykh, Professor Hasan Qaribullah
Dean of Umm Durman Islamic University and Sammania Grand Shaykh
http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/English/Muhammad/Book/Millennium_Biography/Chapter_011.htm

Quote:

EARLY CHARACTER
Muhammad had grown into a quiet, thoughtful youth preferring to look after his uncle's sheep rather than playing with the other children of Mecca. He loved the peace and tranquility of the valleys and mountainside and whilst tending his uncle's flock would pass his time observing and marveling at the wonders of the creation of Allah. Like all boys of the Koraysh tribe he was taught the art of manhood and how best to defend himself. Muhammad had very keen eyesight and so it wasn't surprising that he became an excellent archer like his ancestor Prophet Ishmael. His reputation for being honest, trustworthy and among other fine qualities, intelligent, was recognized by all who knew him, however, it wasn't until after his prophethood that he learned to read or write.

So he did learn to read and write after all??? Shocked

What happened to the claim that he was illiterate and not able to read or write??? Embarassed

In my previous post we already have seen that "the young Muhammad learned the art of the precise diction of pure Arabic" (through his upbringing in the tribe that was "particular ...famous ... for speaking pure Arabic and many of its tribesmen had become famous on account of their eloquent speech and poetry" ) AND that he has been surrounded all his pre-prophet life by people who were very knowledgeable in the pre-islamic jewish and christian scriptures AND that he has been hearing all his pre-prophet life that he must have been chosen as the foretold prophet from those scriptures ....

...it seems the "miracle" of how an "illiterate" nomad with "no knowledge of the pre-islamic scriptures" could "suddenly & out of the blue" become "the chosen one" to be a "divine prophet" gets less and less miraculous... Embarassed

Acknowledgement:
Thank you, Grand Shaykh, Professor Hasan Qaribullah
Dean of Umm Durman Islamic University and Sammania Grand Shaykh , for providing all this valuable info. Wink

_________________
Sheikh Ahmad al Kat'ani:
"every hour 667 muslims are converting to christianity"

ultraman agul

Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1302
Location: Dar al-Islam

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:09 am Post subject:

Spinoza wrote:

Do you even understand the word 'oral'? OR will you claim next that these jews living in Arabia dind't speak Arabic?

It would be interesting to know how this verse (which is a Makkan verse) reached the Prophet (P), when it was revealed years before the Prophet (P) embarked on his hegira to Madinah or ever met even a single Jew.

Again, you resort to your mental gymnastics. Why am I not surprised?

Quote:

There was jewish tribes all over the place. We know cause it is described in great detail how he dealt with them and eventually murdered, expelled or enslaved and raped them.

Of course we know how the fanciful tall tales about Jews being "murdered, expelled, enslaved or raped" are simply exaggerated by the Majusi prophet whom you worship:

http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org/viewtopic.php?t=956

Quote:

I have no need to come up with an Arabic Mishna since he could just talk with the jews (en presumably he couldn't read or write remember)

See what I mean about "mental gymnastics"? Again, you need to show us how was it possible for Muhammad (P) to decide one day at the age of 40 to "talk to the Jews" and write the Qur'an. Also, we need to ask some very important questions:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Bibindex.html#Important

Let's see whether you can answer them!

Quote:

Anyway, your misunderstanding of the Mishna is comparable to Mahomet's confusion.

And your amusing rhetoric of trying to push this "borrowing theory" fallacy is in itself a misunderstanding and a confusion.

Quote:

Well, unless you provide me with a credible solution to this pickle, it's not merely 'conjecture'.....tell me how ELSE these words could end up in the Mishna...

How else? Easy....

Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And barter not My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers. (Qur'an, 5:44)

And the following is how the Jews consider their writings:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

Quote:

Jews also use the word Torah, in a wider sense, to refer to all authoritative Jewish religious teachings. This includes Tanach, the Mishna, the two Talmuds, the accepted midrashic literature, and the works of all Rabbis who are accepted as such by Orthodox Judaism.

Any questions?

Quote:

Holy-Schmoly, the Torah is NOT the word of God...every JEW knows this.

See above.

Quote:

Well, there was plenty of jews around. So you should explain the exact opposite: how could a non devine writing contain the words of God?

Again, see above.

The rest snipped for brevity. Have a nice day.....

- MENJ
_________________
Allah matlamat kami, Al-Quran perlembagaan kami, ar-Rasul ikutan kami, penentang Islam musuh kami, jihad jalan kami dan berkorban pada jalan-Nya adalah setinggi-tinggi pengorbanan

ultraman agul

Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1302
Location: Dar al-Islam

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:16 am Post subject:

Mullah Mo wrote:

Please explain to me what you mean by innocent civilians. Are the unbelievers considered innocent??

Here's the explanation:

http://webpages.marshall.edu/~laher1/TERRORISM.HTML

- MENJ
_________________
Allah matlamat kami, Al-Quran perlembagaan kami, ar-Rasul ikutan kami, penentang Islam musuh kami, jihad jalan kami dan berkorban pada jalan-Nya adalah setinggi-tinggi pengorbanan

Spinoza

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:08 am Post subject:

Quote:

You mean to say the prophet never left Mecca? Or that no jew ever visited Mecca before the Hijrah? Come on, who are you kidding here. The jews were all over the place.

Quote:

Of course we know how the fanciful tall tales about Jews being "murdered, expelled, enslaved or raped" are simply exaggerated by the Majusi prophet whom you worship:

I do not worship any prophet. Whatever you think about these murderous adventures of your prophet they sure tell us there was plenty of jews around in Arabia.

Quote:

Since I never made such claim I need to not show you anyhting. Just like your demand of an Arabic Mishna. I didn't make such an unnecesary claim either. All I need to show is that there were jews around in Arabia. Jews whith whom Mohammed had indead had 40 years (well 30+) of interaction. Before even a letter of the Quran was supposedly revealed.

Quote:

Let's see whether you can answer them!

Answer what?

Quote:

And your amusing rhetoric of trying to push this "borrowing theory" fallacy is in itself a misunderstanding and a confusion.

It's certainly not a fallacy. It shows both of us clearly how the mishna can be mistaken by the casual bystander for the actual word of God.

Quote:

How else? Easy....
Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And barter not My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers. (Qur'an, 5:44)

Well, yes they can be witness to the revealed scipture (the Torah) according to Allah and Mo...but the Mishna is not a revelation of anu kind. You cite a verse which does not even mention the Talmud. The Talmud is proven to be the work oh man, it is NOT the word of God, never was it considered to be, not by the old jews, not by the old christians, not by us today.

Quote:

No, whatever this site write about what jews beleive or may have beleived it is a FACT that the talmud is NOT the word of God. If (some) jews make the same mistake it makes it only easier for me to explain why mohammed also didn't see the difference.

NO jew holds the Talmud to be the literal word of God.

Quote:

The rest snipped for brevity. Have a nice day.....
- MENJ

Well, you seem to evade the issue by showing largely that some others beside mohammed had trouble distuingishing betweeen the Torah and the Talmud. Today, by us, that distinction can be made quite easily. We know for a fact that was written in these particualr lines was an EXPLANATION to was was actually written in Genesis (supposedly the word of God) and we know that is was thought up and written down by a human. These words are HUMAN, are NOT THE WORD OF GOD, the person who wrote those lines down wrote them down as a commentary to his own holy scriptures, not because he was being told by God that these were God's own words.

The words uttered by GOD were something like this: 'The voice of thy brother's bloods crieth' (Gen. 4:10) they aren't even resembling the explanation of the Rabbis. Also look carefully at the wording of the Mishna:

It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race." Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5

This is CLEARLY not a recount of Gods words but an explanation of Gods use of the word 'bloods' in Genesis.

So how on EARTH could this Jew know the words of God and put them AS HIS OWN WORDS into the Mishna? If it was a revelation by God he would not have written them down like this (but he would have claimed devine inspiration instead and he would have written them down more or less like Mohammed had done) or we should see some evidence poiting that way. WEll, no such luck, the wording of this commentary suggest sometime totally different.

Menj, give it another try.

Spinoza

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 1214

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:39 am Post subject:

Quote:

1. Why is it in spite of the abundance of historical material on Muhammad(P)'s life, and in spite of the extensive research on his life for centuries by his severe critics, that it was not possible to discover the mysterious teacher(s) through whom Muhammad(P) might have learned all that?

I didn’t claim a mysterious teacher, did I? Still the 'abundance' of historical material on Mohammed clearly reveals that quite a lot of people accused him during his own lifetime as well. It's even in the Quran.

Quote:

2. It is known that Muhammad(P) was opposed, ridiculed and persecuted for nearly 13 years by his own contemporaries. With this magnitude of severe enemies, was it not possible for them to prove to the masses that Muhammad(P)'s claim of revelation was sheer fabrication? Was it not possible for them to reveal and name the person whom they alleged to be the human source or sources of his teachings? Even some of his adversaries who had made this assertion, changed their minds later on and accused him, instead, of magic or being possessed by evil... etc.

So the lack of adversaries DURING his lifetime is PROOF of his prophethood? So Mao and Stalin, nay, Kim Jong Il are all prophets?

Quote:

3. Muhammad(P) was raised among his people and every aspect of his life was exposed to them, especially by the openness that characterises tribal life in the desert. How could the multitudes of his contemporaries, including many of his close relatives who knew him so well, how could they believe in his truthfulness if they had any doubt that he was claiming credit for ideas taught to him by some other teachers without bothering to give them credit ?

Gullibility? Force? The promise of booty? Politics? Ever heard of people like David Coresh? The fact that some of his closest relatives DIDN'T become Muslims is clear indication that not everyone thought he was all that.

Quote:

4. What kind of teacher might have taught Muhammad(P) a coherent and complete religion that changed the face of history? Why didn't he or they (if any) speak against the alleged student who continued learning from them, while ignoring them and claiming some other divine source for his teachings?

I didn't claim a teacher, so why should I answer this?

Quote:

5. How could many Jews and Christians amongst his contemporaries become Muslims and believe in his truthfulness if they knew he was copying from their scriptures or learning from their priests or rabbis?

Because they were: 1. ignorant 2. afraid 3. lusting for booty Quite a few Jews and Christians (even among his wives) did NOT embrace Islam btw.

Quote:

6. It is known that some of the Qur'ânic revelations to Muhammad(P) in the presence of people. The Qur'ân was revealed over the span of 23 years, where then that was mysterious, perhaps invisible teacher of Muhammad(P)? How could he have hidden himself for so long? Or how could Muhammad(P) who was constantly surrounded by companions, how was he able to make frequent secret visits to that mysterious teacher or teachers for 23 years without even being caught once?

I didn't claim a teacher. Didn't I?

Still the great difference in quality and the totally different message between the Meccan and the Medinan verses could point in this direction. Ever notices how Mo gets more and more pleasures? 8/8 year old girls to marry? Slaves to fuck? Treaties to break? Daughters in law to marry? More and more booty? His attitude towards Christians and Jews (who for some odd reason didn't want to embrace Islam) is also changing....so is his poetic style and his rhetoric.

Your questions, mainly about some teacher, are of no concern to this topic Menj. Please elaborate on the points I've raised in my previous post.

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