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Ampbreia
Joined: 10 Oct 2002
Posts: 476
Location: U.S.A.
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 Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:39 pm Post subject: Flying cars & Judaism |
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I'd fit as a Jew? I don't see that since, though today's version is certainly admirable and well-evolved from its primitive roots, I'd be hard put to justify the Old Testement version & its vengeful warrior god. Know what I mean? I couldn't rationalize its being a root source for Christianity either. Christ bore absolutely no resemblance to it either, & yet claimed affinity for it. Just doesn't seem any more right to me than today's Wahhabist Islam.
I heard that you were an ordained minister, Bush Badee. Is that true? If so, in what religion? & do you have a rationale for dealing with such quandries as the above? Any advice for Muslims, like Emisek, that must deal with the same if they are to keep their religion and still manage to somehow make it humane for once? The Jews did that. How on earth did they do it? Look what they had to work with!
As for the "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you," Hillel said it too? I didn't know that. Interesting. Confuscious said it too. I think of it as a kind of universal definition of human goodness. Wish the Wahabbists would adopt the idea but, then, I guess, they wouldn't be Wahabbists (i.e. basic EVIL-doers) if they did. Sorry if that's a not-nice thing for me to say, but I can't help honestly feeling that way after all the attacks of Wahabbis on Americans & non-Muslims in general, both physical & verbal. Moreover, when they speak of torture, stoning, maiming, or enslaving as somehow being proper treatment for someone who has never even done anything close to that to them, I am so appalled it makes me naseous.
| Quote: | He reached out that night and lifted my child out of that steel container and put him down where he could not have gotten to with out a revocation of the laws of Physics and thermodynamics.
Only Gd can do that.
I was there.
Not only that but that flying vehicle had to have passed through me to get from where it was, to where it went. |
This is tale I really want to hear! If it's not appropriate for the subject here ("Marrying a Muslim" in case anyone forgot), would you please at least PM me? Or am I being too inquisitive?
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bush badee
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Ampbriea
First most modern Jews also have a problem with some of the stuff in the Torah so do not sweat it.
Some of it is pure history and some of it is pure Myth.
I have the complete Talmud (The commentaries on the Torah) and the Mishnah, also on CD. It is quite expensive but perhaps a thousand cheaper than a paper edition and it is indexed.
The only problem is that my Talmud does n ot work with XP or at least I have not had time to figure out how to make it work, I am sure it can be done. It works with win98 though
Any suggestions (It is the loading program that makes it not work)
As to the Whabbi's I think you are too kind
If they would listen to me they would turn the sands of Arabia in to some interestingly shaded slightly radio active glass.
There is a middle eastern proverb.
If some one comes to have you for dinner, have them for lunch.
I think it is to bad that this is not the American way.
Like I said the only common thing through all branches of Judiasm is to heal the world.
Jesus (his name was not "annointed") fit right in with Judiasm of today and 2000 years ago (Assuming he existed and there is no proof of that)
It is just that Christians know so little about their bible and what it really says that they have been brainwashed by their ministers that Jesus was a maverick.
Example : do you know the name of Barabbus in English
Who was the high priest./
Who was in the Sanhedren?
Where were the JEws on that fateful night.
I have met few christians who could answere that.
Yes I was ordained as a Christian minister, but that and a dollar will get me on the subway.
I studied Bibicle Archaeology at the University and the title sort of went along with it. In fact I started the Universityies Christian artifact collection with a bunch of stuff from Jorden. It was so long ago (About 50 years) and so unimportant to me that I do not even remember the sect.
I guess I could go down to the basement and find the certificate but I would not know which of my 15, 4 draw files to start looking for it in.
I really can not answere your question on how to handle and huminize religion. Gd has not given me the secret to that.
I believe religion should be taken with a grain of salt.
IN the University I asked the head of the Bibicle Archaeology dept if there was any proof that Jesus existed.
His answere has guided me through life.
His answere.
there is no proof of the existance of Jesus in fact we have things from the Dead Sea Scrolls which indicate that he probly did not exist.
Me
How do you reconcile that with your being a practicing Catholic..
He
You should not mix faith up with fact.
If we knew Jesus existed, it would no longer be faith, by definition.
I have absolute faith that Jesus existed.
But intellectually I know he did not.
Faith is something we can neither prove or disprove.
I have no faith in the existance of GD.
My faith was destroyed one night when Gd stepped into my sons and my lives.
The laws of physics was repealed that night for a short while.
Only Gd could do what happened that nigh, so my faith and the faith of a number of witnesses was destroyed and replace with the sure knowledge of the existance of Gd.
Well I have complete faith in the bible.
But I know that much of it is parables and myths.
I do not know what is right and wrong.
I do not know what Gd wants.
I do not think he wrote any of the bible with his own ball point pen.
I do not have his private phone number which a number of others who think they know what he wants, claim to have.
I am not so pretentious to think he needs me to do his work.
The only thing I am fairly sure of is that he has a purpose for my son. That I know from other incidents in my life which are not mirricles, but which defy the odds.
But that is another bubba meinser.
| Quote: | | This is tale I really want to hear! If it's not appropriate for the subject here ("Marrying a Muslim" in case anyone forgot), would you please at least PM me? Or am I being too inquisitive? |
NO you are not being to inquisitive.I will post the story tomorrow if you ask me again to remind me.
I get these little notes that I have a message waiting.
I have posted it before and it is some wheres in this group, but that is a long time ago and I do not think I could find it again.
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Ampbreia
Joined: 10 Oct 2002
Posts: 476
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:03 pm Post subject: Faith & Knowledge |
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Barabas is the last name of Jesus, isn't it? Is it a title? Does it mean "Annointed" for instance? My Sunday school teacher always said it was the name of the thief that hung up beside Christ but I didn't place a lot of stock in anything he said because of the way he taught the Bible: pulling things out of context, regularly, and not liking to be questioned on this at all.
The Jews were at their Passover festival/feast.
What is the Sanhedren? Is that a council or jury of 5?
| Quote: | there is no proof of the existance of Jesus in fact we have things from the Dead Sea Scrolls which indicate that he probly did not exist.
Me
How do you reconcile that with your being a practicing Catholic..
He
You should not mix faith up with fact.
If we knew Jesus existed, it would no longer be faith, by definition.
I have absolute faith that Jesus existed.
But intellectually I know he did not.
Faith is something we can neither prove or disprove. |
Having faith can contribute to a reduced capacity to think clearly or even to be competely honest with oneself. Just as in reading any piece of fiction, suspension of skepticism or disbelief is required before the story can be felt or enjoyed.
This does not mean that the story has no value. It's value is in its metaphorical meanings as well as in the ideas it can give. Pertaining to the later: most, if not all, of our finest scientific acheivements have begun as science fiction. Wild idea becomes a story, disbelief is suspended, consideration of real possibility takes place, blue prints get drawn up.... And metaphor is the soul expressing itself in physical-world symbology.
It doesn't matter whether or not Christ actually existed. What matters is what the stories of him actually teach. They teach good things, they enscapsulate humanism - which seems to have been a rare concept in those violent times. Were you saying this wasn't true, by the way? That these traits were not actually unusual or "maverick" for the times? I don't know if that really matters since the message was, nonetheless, good even if not physically factual.
The same could not be said of King David. King David, like Prophet Mohammad, was apparently acceptable for the time period he is depicted in, but in terms of what concepts were taught by his example... well, I guess he could be used as an example of true evil, a Hitler for his times. Something that particularly appalled me when King David was spoken of in Sunday School was the fact that the teacher actually seemed to revere David as some kind of hero just because he claimed to be a prophet and Christ allegedly descended from him!
That gives the wrong message. It's like the teacher was showing that acting like King David was somehow divine! It sent up my BS detector big time. I'm pretty sure it was the teacher's faith kicking in there to smooth over David's obvious evils to the point that he couldn't even really see it. I think that if the teacher had been a little more lacking in faith, he might have been able to see David for who he really was.
Why is it, do you think, that so many decent human beings that also happen to be Muslim cling tenaciously to Islam even though Mohammad's history clearly shows him to have been a highway robber, a pedaphile, a mass murderer, a slaver, an oppressor of women and non-Muslims, and basically very cruel in actual practice?
Muslims recite these things about their prophet in both the haddith and the Koran and yet call the prophet a good man. Does it occur to any of them that the only supernatural being that could seriously make use of such a person for a prophet would have to be Evil itself? A prophet's example is one that can be expected to be followed, not shunned. So that Koran's statement that Allah can use whomever he pleases as a prophet, even such a one as Mohammad, is not sensible unless
a) Mohammad was miraculously reformed into a good person (which he wasn't) or
b) Allah is an evil entity who knew EXACTLY what he was doing.
The same could be said about the prophethood of King David & the Yaweh of the Old Testment.
Faith, I believe, can sometimes lead people down the wrong path.
I believe we are meant to use our own minds, instincts, senses, common sense, & feelings when making earthly decisions: what to wear, what to eat, who to be with, how to get along with others. Faith should be an extra dimension outside of these things - not a deciding factor. Faith can lend hope, it can heal, it can aid in the visualization & control necessary to metaphysical actions, it can teach... but when it teaches wrong things, it should be put aside in favor of more down-to-earth rationales.
Okay, enough of my wild ranting. This is your reminder you asked for: you have a wonderous tale to tell? I like that kind! 
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bush badee
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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Wow this is a long one.
It will wrap the night up.
| Quote: | Barabas is the last name of Jesus, isn't it? Is it a title? Does it mean "Annointed" for instance? My Sunday school teacher always said it was the name of the thief that hung up beside Christ but I didn't place a lot of stock in anything he said because of the way he taught the Bible: pulling things out of context, regularly, and not liking to be questioned on this at all.
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Hey that is pretty good Ampbriea. Really.
While close is only good in horseshoes I think you get the prize any way.
Actually the first name of Bar barus was Jesus.
Barbarus means the son of the farthers.
So they were calling for Jesus the son of the farthers.
But that was the name of Jesus the Christ.
So in actuality they were calling for Jesus to be released.
By the way Roman custom at the time was not to release a prisoner. It was to grab some innocent person off the street and crucify him as an example to the people who were prone to rebell around Passover.
My wife went to Campus Crusades for Christ.
She was tossed out for raising up her hand every 10 minutes and saying, but that is not what the bible says. The problem was that she was always right and the preacher always wrong.
My wife knows the bible and the NT by heart, just about.
She probly did that to get even.
They used to wake the kids at 2am in the morning to gather around the flag pole and be indoctrinated and sing songs.
Any one who awakes my wife at 2am is bound to feel her rage.
Right
The Jews were at the passover festival telling thier kids the story of passover as commanded in the bible.
Ergo no Jews were there when pilot asked who the crowd wanted.
Actually the Sanhedren mentioned in the NT would be 71 people. But it was a trick question. The San Hedren was dissolved in 65 bce by the romans.
It was replaced by a Grand council of roman stooges.
I personally see nothing wrong with faith if it brings you comfort even if it is a false faith, but really what is a false faith.
we really do not know.
| Quote: | | It doesn't matter whether or not Christ actually existed. What matters is what the stories of him actually teach. |
Exactly that is what Bishop Spong and my self both teach.
About KIng David, I have been saying the same thing for a long time. I do not see what GD saw in him. I thought he was a horrible example, but he was supposed to be very popular with the people and he certainly was no Hitler.
By the way, King David we are pretty sure existed.
But the bible tells us that David love Gd very much and repented of his sins and that is why Gd loved him, but you will notice that because King David had shed blood he was not allowed to build the temple.
That fell to his son Solomon.
His other sons fought amongst themselve and against him.
The brought him no Joy and he was amply punished for his transgressions.
NO Davids big point was that he knew he had committed evil and he truly repented of it. Even as he was punished in many ways he kept his faith in Gd and was truly repentant.
About the prophet, I agree with you in spades and I think you missed a bunch of his worst charateristics.
But the difference between David and MO is that david repented mo stuck his finger in the plum pie, pulled it out and said what a good boy am I .
Mo is not recored to have ever repented and the muslims to this day think his treachery of making treaties and getting people to peace conferences and then slaugtering them are cutesy and clever.
Arafat is know to have bragged how he was going to make a peace treaty with the Jews like MO did and when he becomes strong enough, break the treaty and slaughter the Jews.
It's midnight and I have to get up early to take my daughter's dog to the vet tomorrow for an operations so the story will have to wait till tomorrow.
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Robert
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 554
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 6:03 am Post subject: |
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[url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10069#10069]
The reasons why Jews did not accept Muhammad as a prophet. [/url]
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"Le premier prophète fut le premier fripon qui rencontra un imbécile." -
"The first prophet was the first crook who met a sucker."
Voltaire (1694-1778) |
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bush badee
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Robert thank you for the suggestion of that site.
Here is the post that I posted there.
For convience I will repost it here something I have not ever done, double posted.
| Quote: |
Why the Jews did not accept Mo as the or a prophet is simple and does not require much speculation.
Mo came to the Jews and told them he thought their religion was correct and he wanted to convert the world to Judiasm and he would do it by the sword.
Judiasm is, in general , and at that time a non proscilliting religion and the Jews did not want to start a war with the Christians or any one else at the time.
They also definitely do not believe in force conversions that Mo offered
In addition, Mo had a reputation as a Killer and a bandit, caravan raider and they did not see him as any kind of a holy person.
So of course they turned him down.
Basically those are the reasons that the jews did not accept Mo and never to this day could.
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By the way, I spent a few years in German near NUrnberg in Schwabach.
I always got a kick out of the name of the first town after Schawbach on the train to Nurnberg "Katzwang"
I have some great photos of Nurnberg I took in 1950
They should be classic by now.
I was a photographer at the time with my own Lab in Germany.
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Orenda
Joined: 02 Aug 2002
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2003 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Esimsek, I found a similar page on what you posted about the punishment of thieves, perhaps you know it? www.free-minds.org
i believe they want to reform Islam, but in such a way that is really beyond any capability,
i'm afraid... | Quote: |
AN EXAMPLE OF UNDERSTANDING THE QURAN.
Now that you have read all the above steps, we will take an actual example of how this is put into use…We will deal with the issue of ‘theft’ in the Quran.
The first and most obvious verse that deals with this subject is5:38...below are some literal translations:
YUSUFALI: As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.
PICKTHAL: As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
The above seems as clear as day...just 'cut off their hands' and the matter is done!.
In-fact, this is the law carried out by the Sunni and Shia in their respective countries under the guise that 'GOD told them to do so!'.(
Let us put the study of the Quran in practice and bring together the verses which use the word 'theft', 'cut', and 'hand':
Theft: 12:70, 12:73, 12:77, 12:81, 60:12, 5:38.
Cut: 7:72, 69:46, 29:29, 8:7, 22:15, 13:25, 5:38, 12:31, 12:50, 7:160, 7:1245:33, 2:166...
Hand: 3:73, 5:64, 17:29, 27:12, 2:237, 24:40, 5:28, 2:97, 38:45, 7:124, 43:30, 12:31, 60:112...
The first observation when looking at these verses is that the word (qat'a) which is translated as 'cut' can also mean 'stop' (29:29, 13:25).
The second observation is that (yad) which is translated as 'hand' can also mean 'resource' (38:45).
The third observation is that the words 'cut & hand' also occur together elsewhere in the Quran to give the meaning of 'marking the hand' (12:31).
If we were to simply stop here with gathering the verses 'Tartil' and then attempting to derive the best meaning 'Iqra', then we would conclude that 'marking the hand of the thief' is the proper context for 5:38 and it still retains the meaning of the words used.
However, if we complete the process and move on to step # 4 above, then we find a 'live example' of theft being given in Chapter 12...The story of Joseph (12:70-79).
12:74, "They said: 'what shall be his punishment if you are not truthful??"'
12:75, "They said: 'the punishment is that whomever it is found in his bags, then he shall remain as punishment. It is such that we punish the wicked'."'
Here we are given new light on the matter...Joseph's brothers state that 'detention' of the person is the punishment...not the 'marking of the hand'.
Now we can see which words to use in the translation/understanding of the verse on theft:
"The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut off their resources as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise." (5:38)
As such, you are detaining the thief from his/her job of theft, and making them remain in prison or as a worker until the person 'repents and reforms':
"Whosoever repents after his wrongdoing and does right, then GOD will accept his repentance. GOD is Forgiving, Merciful." (5:39)
This is how a proper meaning is derived, and how the law of GOD shines through in its pure form...Had we not gone through the required steps of study as prescribed by GOD, then we would have committed an irreversible crime of amputating peoples hands as the Sunnis and Shia have done due to their blatant disregard for the structure of the Book of GOD pointed out in 3:7. |
Is there is no other word for "resources" in the Arabic language?
if there is only one word for 'resources' which can also mean 'HAND', ?
I think this is proof that Arabic is a faulty language to reveal any message for mankind.
Once again do we rely on what Joseph did as an example to emulate? Or what Allah told us to do?
Here I think is evidence that Islam is a totally different religion and seperate from the Prophets of the Bible...And "quran Only" Muslims are scrambling to find a way out of this mess, they are in fact creating their own backwards-abrogation, and opting for the the way Joseph of the Bible dealth with thieves, instead of what Muhammed did.
(Since what Joseph did in reference to thieves is contradictory to what Muhammed did with thieves.)
Indeed, it is also proof that you need to rely on an appointed man to surrender all authority to interpret the quran for you also,
since the lay person reading the quran would mistake it for meaning Hand,
just as the Prophet Muhammed himself did, and so practiced.
I wonder if you asked any muslim today who would be the most reliable interpreter of the Quran, would they not choose the Prophet himself?
This is also a huge problem, since Allah felt it neccessary to reveal verses especially for Muhammed's sex life,
yet failed to reveal a verse like,
" Hey Muhammed you dumbo stop cutting off hands i meant RESOURCES."
I guess Allah almighty chose "poetic value" over clear understanding...?
Was he chuckling as his Rasool was misinterpreting the very words he spoke from Gabriel? |
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Cruelty
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 4:16 am Post subject: Hey |
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First of I relate to you completely, as a muslim woman dating a non-muslim man, I told him flat out that I will never tell my family about him, we will never marry and if he wants kids he better look elsewhere!
Its good to hear thoughts from the other side. I know once his parents, in disbelief that I actually did have such a family, convinced him that I was probably seeing someone else and that is why did not want to take him home!
Any how, a freind of mine who is Iranian just married her long time boyfreind who is catholic. They had a traditional iranina "muslim" wedding and did the vows and everything though they had wanted a non-denominational ceremony, they agreed to have a more muslim wedding than not. Both are happy, they have no plans to go to Iran hence are not concerend about the marriage being illigal there. I do know that there is some notion of a full faith and credit for foreign marriages though I don't know the specific country of origin for your girl frined. My frined who is Iranian is considered to be "married" by her muslim family both here and in iran.
Best of Luck! |
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Robert
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 554
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| bush badee wrote: |
By the way, I spent a few years in German near NUrnberg in Schwabach.
I always got a kick out of the name of the first town after Schawbach on the train to Nurnberg "Katzwang"
I have some great photos of Nurnberg I took in 1950
They should be classic by now.
I was a photographer at the time with my own Lab in Germany. |
That's about 800 kilometers away from me, I am in the West of Germany.
But maybe I am gonna see Nuremberg one day. 
_________________
"Le premier prophète fut le premier fripon qui rencontra un imbécile." -
"The first prophet was the first crook who met a sucker."
Voltaire (1694-1778) |
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bush badee
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Jumping Robert  wrote
| Quote: | But maybe I am gonna see Nuremberg one day.
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If you get there take the trolley to to Furth.
Go to the Palace of Justice it is a short ride.
It has an interesting history.
all the anti semitic laws were passed there.
After the war, the Nazi's were tried there.
They were then hung there in the courtyard.
The US army had their sinogog there for the Jewish soldiers.
What went around finally came around.
They may still have the services there.
I do not know, it was 50 years ago.
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Unknown 49
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:26 am Post subject: Complicated |
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Firstly, I think your girlfriend should be congratulated for converting away from Islam. As Dot Branning from Eastenders has said, "In the kingdom of 'eaven, there'll be more celebrating for 1 sinner what repents than for 99 what ditn't 'ave no need of no repentance in the first place." (notably from Luke 15:7).
Secondly, I must also congratulate you for resisting the temptation to convert to Islam.
Thirdly, I must question whether it was terribly wise for you to consider marrying this girl. I am of the opinion that religious background is something that people getting married should have in common, even if their beliefs are lapsed or unpractising. Say you were a Muslim, it would not be advisable to go out with someone, if you have to drag her into the mosque, even if she does have the body beautiful.
Fourthly, I think you should just get married anywhere, so long as the marriage is legally recognised. |
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Unknown 3
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Hey |
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deleted
Last edited by Unknown 3 on Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Unknown 3
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Hey |
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| Cruelty wrote: | | First of I relate to you completely, as a muslim woman dating a non-muslim man, I told him flat out that I will never tell my family about him, we will never marry and if he wants kids he better look elsewhere! |
Pardon my asking but then why date him if you know you have to break it off some day in the future? Sounds a bit illogical to me.[/quote] |
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bush badee
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Wishing will not get rid of PMS.
see your doctor.
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Cruelty
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| well I wont have to "break it off" because I can continue to see him, just not be married to him, I find marriage highly unecessary. I don't really want kids anyways. So we are happy now and that's why I am with him. Although I am starting to feel like my family is getting off to easy and I make too many concessions for them......who knows I might change my tune when I am 30 or something........ |
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