Faith Freedom International

[pharell]

The Conditional Promised Land ?


The Israelis claim that they have a God given right to take all the land in Israel. Is this true ? Let's examine the Bible for the factual answers;

First God makes the unconditional promise to Abraham's descendants, What Israelis overlook is that Abraham had more than one son;

“The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." Genesis12. Then in verse 6 and 7 we further read “Abram traveled through the land as far as the site of the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land." (Not Isaac, not Ishmael, Both "Your offspring" (i.e. plural; your children)

This is also clearly seen in Genesis 17:7-8 when God repeats his promise to Abraham after Abraham had obeyed God’s command: “I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.”


This obviously includes Ishmael, whom the Arabs are descended from because even after Abraham died, Ismael is addressed as "Abrahams's son" in the Bible;

"Then his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him (Abraham) in *the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, facing Mamre," Genesis 25:9

Therefore, even the Bible editors recognized Ishmael as Abraham's valid son, a fact latter apologetics try to dilute.

But God made also conditional promises to the people of Israel. A conditional promise is based on the “if-then” principle. This means that God will do or give something if the people meet certain requirements.

In his farewell speech to the Israelites, Moses repeats the pact that God made with them. This speech takes up a major part of the book of Deuteronomy. There is a whole section where God promises all types of promises if they keep His commandments and obey His Law.

Deuteronomy 28:1-2 says that “If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God…” This is followed by a long list of blessings. The principle of the “if-then” is clear here.

But starting in verse 15 of the same chapter the Lord warns Israel of the consequences of disobedience;


“However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country. Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out…”


There are countless fatalities and plagues that the Lord tells Israel that it will befall on them if they disobey. For our present issue at hand verses 63 to 66 of the same chapter point to what has happened and why Israel still has a problem with the so-called promised land.


“Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess. Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods--gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the LORD will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life.”

As there is an unconditional promise: ownership, there is a conditional promise: Israel will live in the land if she is faithful to God’s commandments and statutes. It seems that Moses’s admonitions to Israel before entered the land for the first time, are more accurate than one can imagine.

On the journey from Egypt to Israel, God killed countless Israelis for not meeting the conditions of the Promise, hence preventing them from ever living in Israel.

11 Rulers; Whom Moses sent to spy out the land, and who returned and made all the congregation to murmur against him by bringing up an evil report against the land, are killed by a plague from the Lord. Num. 14:37

250 Levite princesses; of the Jews who challenged the leadership of Moses. "their wives, sons and little children were swallowed up by the ground", then sent a fire to consume the remaining princes. Num. 16:1-40

3,000 brothers and children; of Israelis "And he said to them, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'Put every man his sword on his side, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.'" And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men." (Exodus 32:21-2 [note: the surviving Israelis are then told in verse 29 that they are blessed for killing their own brothers and children]

14,700; Israeli protesters killed by plague who object to Moses about the prior killing of the 250 Jewish princesses. Num 16:41-49

The entire generation of the elderly "And the LORD's anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the LORD was consumed." Numbers 32 :13

When Moses passed away, the leadership of Israel fell to Joshua (Deut. 34:9). It was Joshua who was to take the people into Canaan and direct the conquering of the land. Joshua was given a charge in Joshua 1:1-9 concerning this, and in verse 4, he was told the extent of the land:



From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.

The readers should also take note of the condition given in verse 3 of this passage:



Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given you, as I said unto Moses.

Again, it was going to be necessary for the people to "keep walking" in order to possess the land.

God also stated his condition of obedience in Joshua 1:7-9. Note especially verse 8:

This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: FOR THEN THOU SHALT MAKE THY WAY PROSPEROUS, AND THEN THOU SHALT HAVE GOOD SUCCESS, (emphasis CC).

Joshua began the conquering of the land with the taking of Jericho (Josh. 6) and then lost at Ai. This loss was brought about by Achan's taking of some of the possessions of Jericho (Josh. 7:1), a violation of God's will (Josh. 6:18-19; compare with Deut. 7:5). Joshua 10:40-43 shows us that Joshua had conquered the country of the hills, of the south, of the vale, and of the springs (v:40). These verses do not say that Joshua had conquered all the land of Canaan, but contextually speak of those lands he had fought against to that time.

Joshua 10:41 mentions that Joshua had conquered unto Gibeon, a land he did not take in battle but subdued in slavery, because he wrongfully made a pact with them (Josh. 9). This was a clear violation of Deuteronomy 7:2. It came about because they "asked not counsel at the mouth of the Lord" (Josh. 9:14).

Joshua's conquests continued in chapter 11, and in verse 23 we are told "Joshua took the whole land." Some would cite this as showing that nothing was left that needed to be conquered. However, in context, the term "whole land" refers to that land which Joshua had done battle against. This is evident since verse 22 says that some of the Anakim still remained in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod. Since these were not yet conquered, it follows that the "whole land" included only those lands conquered to this point, which according to Joshua 12:7 stretched from Lebanon to Edom. At this time, they rested from war and divided the land.

Of the land divided, some still needed conquering (Josh. 13:1), and this would have to be done by those who inherited the land (Josh. 13:6). In Joshua's final charge to the people, he reminded them of the condition for possession:

Take good heed unto yourselves, that ye love the Lord your God. Else IF YE DO IN ANY WISE GO BACK, AND CLEAVE UNTO THE REMNANT OF THESE NATIONS, EVEN THESE THAT REMAIN AMONG YOU, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they unto you: Know for a certainty that the Lord your God WILL NO MORE DRIVE OUT ANY OF THESE NATIONS FROM BEFORE YOU; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you, (Josh. 23:11-13, emphasis CC).

As Judges 1 shows, the children of Israel did not conquer all their possessions. Judges 2:1-5 explains why. Note the following:

And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: BUT YE HAVE NOT OBEYED MY VOICE: why have ye done this? Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

It is obvious that the Israelites made leagues with these people and quit fighting. Thus, they violated all conditions set forth by God: (1) they quit "walking" (Josh. 1:3), (2) they made pacts with the enemy (Deut. 7:2), and (3) they disobeyed God's commands (Deut. 8:1). Therefore, these people could not fulfill all of what God wanted done.

In conclusion, conditions and commandments were not obeyed by the Israelis, Canceling their right to live in Israel, the land is promised to them, but their occupation of the land is against the will of God. For example, an inheritance of real-estate with a list of rules you have to maintain to receive the real-estate, to live in the inherited property without meeting the rules would be illegal, according to God, it would be lethal.

"And Samuel said to him, "The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you this day, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you." 1Samuel 15:28
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“And mix not truth with falsehood, nor conceal the truth while you know the truth” [TMQ Al-Baqarah: 42]

[militantms]

Response to Pharell:

So, what you are saying in your post is, God intended both Ishmael's and Isaac's decendents to have the Holy Land. God gave laws to Isaac's decendents (part of them - Jacob's part), they flunked, so now only Ishmael's decendents have a right to the land. And during the time Jacob's decendents were sometimes being obedient and sometimes not being obedient, all of Ishmael's were LIVING IN IDOLTRY - throughout the entire period. But, still THEY have a right to the land!(?) And, nevermind that the Messiah came through the lineage of Jacob, still it's Ishmael's decendents who have a right to the land. (?)

There has never been a time when the majority of Ishmael's decendents worshiped the God of the Bible. There have been a few who did, throughout the years, but only a few. The majority of Ishmael's decendents certainly do not worship the God of the Bible today.
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Ishmael was, indeed, a son of Abraham. I don't know any Christians who dispute that. But, in Gen: 17: 18-21, God makes it clear that His covenant is with Isaac.

THE HISTORY OF THE JEWS HAS BEEN DESPERSION AND RESTORATION:
Some of God's promises were conditional. He told the Israelites that if they were disobedient they would be removed from the land. That is what Deut. 28:36 is referring to. This verse is a prediction of the Assyrian and Babalonian captivites. After the captivity period was over, in both cases, they were allowed to return to the land.

Deut. 28:64-68 is a prophecy of the despersion of the Jewish people among all peoples after the destruction of Jersusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70. And God has, again, allowed them to return. We knew they would return, (but we didn't know when or under what circumstances), because the Bible speaks of them BEING BACK THERE AT THE END TIMES, IN BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS.

Joshua was a called servant of God. In Joshua 14, a division is made of the Land by Joshua and Eleazar, the priest, and heads of the households of the tribes. This was done by someone called by God, (Joshua), and no where in the Bible is there any indication that God was, in any way, displeased with this. In the Bible, when a servant of God displeased Him, He said so. Sometimes He even punished them. No indication was given that they were dividing land they had no right to. The land that was divided includes all Israel, part of Egypt, part of Syria, and most of Jordan.

I Sam. 15: 28 is talking about Saul, not Israel. The kingdom would be taken from Saul and given to David.
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But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run and not be weary; and they shall walk and not faint. Isa. 40:31

[militantms]

PROPHECY CONCERNING THE LAST DISPERSION AND REGATHERING OF ISRAEL

Most important in the Old Testament prophecies concerning Israel are those related to Israel's final dispersion and final regathering. by the Assyrian captivity of the Northern Kingdom and the Babylonian captivity of the Southern Kingdom, and as a national punishment for sin, the whole house of Israel was taken from off the land and in due time was scattered amoung the nations of the earth. This was in fulfillment of multiplied prophecies (Lev. 26:32-39; Deut. 28:63-68; Neh. 1:8; Psalms 44:11; Jer. 9:16; 18:15-17; Ezek. 12:14-15; 20:23; 22:15; James 1:1).

In no case would Israel's national entity be lost even through centuries of dispersion (Jer. 31:36; Matt. 24:34). They refused the divine offer and provision for their regathering and kingdom glory which was made by their Messiah at His first advent (Matt. 23:37-39); at Kadesh-barnea, where their wilderness experience was extended (Num. 14:1-45), their chastisement was continued and will be continued until He comes again. [This means a national chastisement.] At that time He will regather His people into their own land and cause them to enter into the glory and blessedness of every covenant promise of God concerning them (Deut. 30:1-10; Isa. 11:11-12; Jer. 23:3-8; Ezek. 37:21-25; Matt. 24:31).
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But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run and not be weary; and they shall walk and not faint. Isa. 40:31

[militantms]

THE PROPHECY OF ISRAEL'S 490 YEARS

One of the major prophecies given through Daniel is recorded in Daniel 9:24-27. Here, according to the information given by the angel Gabriel to Daniel, "seventy weeks" or seventy sevens (490 years) were to comprise Israel's future history. Daniel was told (9:24), "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The prophecy was to begin with the command to restore and to build Jerusalem (Dan. 9:25), and 483 years of the total of 490 years were to be fulfilled before the Messiah the Prince would come. while scholars have differed greatly in their interpretation of this passage probably the best view is to begin this period of 490 years with the time of Nehemiah's reconstruction of Jerusalem in 445 B.C. It would then culminate about A.D. 32, approximately the time when Christ died on the cross. [Most theologian say it culminated on Palm Sunday]. Recent scholarship has placed the death of Christ as late as 33 A.D., although most interpreters date it A.D. 30 or earlier.

According to Daniel's prophecy, after the Messiah Himself was to be cut off - which would occur after the 483 years but apparently before the last seven years of the prophecy - Jerusalem itself would be destroyed (Dan. 9:26). This historically was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

It is implied in Daniel's prophecy that there is a considerable period between the end of the 483 years, or the 69 "weeks," and the beginning of the last seven years, or seventieth "week," as it includes two events seperated by forty years. The last week was to be characterized by a covenant apparently made with a future prince related to the people who destroyed the city. As the people who destroyed the city of Jerusalem were Romans, "the prince that shall come" (Dan. 9:26) will apparently be a ruler of a revived Roman empire. Many interpreters view this as still a future event which will occur after the church has been raptured.

This future ruler will make a seven-year covenant with the people of Israel described in Daniel 9:27. The covenant will be broken in the middle of the week, and the last three and one-half years will be a time of persecution and trial for Israel. This period is the subject of extended prophecy in Revelation 6:18 and ends at the second coming of Christ in Revelation 19. Of special interest is the prediction that this future ruler will cause sacrifice and oblation to cease and will make the Temple desolate. This implies a future temple in Jerusalem and a resumption of the sacrificial system of Moses by Orthodox Jews in the period preceeding the second coming of Christ.

It is significant that the first 483 years have been literally fulfilled. Jerusalem was rebuilt in the first 49 years as indicated in Daniel 9:25. the Messiah was cut off after 483 years. The events of the last week are yet future and provide a chronology for the end time leading up to the second coming of Christ.
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But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run and not be weary; and they shall walk and not faint. Isa. 40:31

[militantms]

PROPHECY CONCERNING THE END TIME

As intimated in the brief study of Daniel 9:27, Israel will have a dramatic future role in end-time events leading up to the second coming of Christ. According to Scripture, there are four major movements to Israel's future in relation to the end of the age.

1. Israel was prophesied to be reconstituted as a political state. In order to make a covenant with the "prince that shall come," it was necessary for Isreal to be formed again as a political state. This, of course, was dramatically fulfilled in May 1948 when Israel was recognized as a nation and given a portion of the Promised Land as her posession. In years which followed, her territories have been enlarged and her strength increased, until Israel today, although small in number, is a major factor in world affairs. This is a prelude to other prophecies to be fulfilled.

2. As indicated in Daniel 9:27, Israel will enter into a covenant with a Gentile Roman ruler of the Mediterranean, a covenant planned for seven years. This will introduce the covenant period in which Israel will have a measure of peace and security. In this period, undoubtedly many more Jews will go back to the Promised Land, and Israel will prosper financially as well as politically.

3. The covenant with Israel, however, will be dramatically broken in three and one-half years after it is formed, and Israel will become a persecuted people instead of a favored people. This is "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7) and the Great Tribulation (Dan. 12:1; Matt. 24:21; Rev. 7:14).

4. Israel's glorious restoration in the millennial kingdom will follow the second advent of Christ and continue throughout the thousand years of Christ's reign on earth.

The importance of understanding the four stages of Israel's restoration is seen in the fact that the first stage has already taken place and the second stage will most probably not take place until after the church is raptured. The stage is being set for dramatic end-time events in which Israel will have a major role.
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But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run and not be weary; and they shall walk and not faint. Isa. 40:31

[militantms]

THE PREMILLENNIAL VIEWPOINT

Premillennialism insists that all the provisions of the Abrahamic Covenant must be fulfilled since the covenant was made without conditions. Much of the covenant has already been fulfilled and fulfilled literally; therefore, what remains to be fulfilled will also be fulfilled literally. This brings the focus on the yet-unfulfilled land promise. Though the nation Israel occupied part of the territory promised in the covenant, she has never yet occupied all of it and certainly not eternally as the covenant promised. Therefore, there must be a time in the future when Israel will do so, and for the premillennialist this will be in the coming millennial kingdom. Thus the Abrahamic Covenant gives strong support for premillennial eschatology.
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But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run and not be weary; and they shall walk and not faint. Isa. 40:31

[bush badee]

You all make a bunch of assumptions through ignorance of the bible and history.

[quote]The Israelis claim that they have a God given right to take all the land in Israel. Is this true ? Let's examine the Bible for the factual answers;
[/quote]

What does the bible have to do with the Jews right to the land of Israel?

Really very little in todays terms.
First the Jews claim to the land is based on International law anda not the bible so why spread that BS.


Napolean recognized that law in the middle of the 19th century and agreed the land belonged to the Jews.

The league of Nations in about 1924 made the same recognition and put the land in t he hands of the British, as a mandate in trust for the Jewish people, and Britain gave away land they did not own.
At that time only two nations in the entire world recognized that little bit of theivery..


Next, what do the arabs have to do with Abraham.?
They are not descendent from him or Hagar/
They are descendent from the Amalikites (I believe that was the name) Those are the guys that were harrassing Moses columns and which David (Yes he DID exist) finally put down.

The descendents of Hagar died out and merged with their neighbors over 2000 years ago.,

So that leaves the arabs as nothing but invaders, trying to grab some one elses land as they have been doing for the last 1400 or so years.
They ate Egypt, Syria, MOrroco and so many other non arab countries so what is new about theem trying to grab off Israel and the Phillipines now.
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to answere directly email to
Bushbadee@aol.com

[missionms]

Jews exist because the God of the Bible wanted them to exist and made them exist - and to exist as a seperate and distinct group.

Had not God wanted this to happen, you would have inter-married by now to the extent that you would have disappeared. There would be no such thing as a Jew! No God of the Bible - no Jew! Get it?
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I count only two men rational: the man who loves God with all his heart because he has found Him, and the man who seeks God with all his heart because he has, as yet, found Him not.

[bush badee]

[quote]Had not God wanted this to happen, you would have inter-married by now to the extent that you would have disappeared. There would be no such thing as a Jew! No God of the Bible - no Jew! Get it?
[/quote]

No I do not get it.
Jews exist to this day because of Christian and Muslim oppression of them

As to intermarriage, most of the spouses of Jews eventually leave Christianity and become Jews.

My wife is a Jew and in the sisterhood of her local temple.
She tells me that Some of the nicest woman in the sister hood are former Jews.
In fact there is one christian lady in the Jewish sisterhood, my wife tells me, who has not converted because, then they would elect her president of the sisterhood and she does not want that.

In any case, lose a few, get a few.

But yes, I agree that the Jews are Gd's chosen people, but I find that very few christians, and fewer Muslims know what they were chosen for and that they have already fulfilled that requirement.
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to answere directly email to
Bushbadee@aol.com

[missionms]

What were the Jews chosen for and what have they fufilled?


I thought they were chosen to preserve His Word. To be the people that the Messiah came through. And, before the crucifiction, to represent Him in the world.
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I count only two men rational: the man who loves God with all his heart because he has found Him, and the man who seeks God with all his heart because he has, as yet, found Him not.

[bush badee]

[quote]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What were the Jews chosen for and what have they fufilled?


I thought they were chosen to preserve His Word. To be the people that the Messiah came through. And, before the crucifiction, to represent Him in the world.

[/quote]

Actually no.

They were chosen to be a light unto the world.
To bring the ten commandments and the law to the world.

That is why they are not to popular.
No evil doer likes to be told that they are doing evil and that there is a right way to do thins.,

Then there is a secondary duty called "Tickem Olem" repair the world. To make it a better place than when you arrived.


Legend says
Gd offered this job to all the other tribes of the world, and they all said, no not us.
Then he came to the Jews and asked them and stupid them said OK.
So they have been burdened with this job.

There have been many messiahs.
Messiah just means annointed.
All Jewish kings were messiahs.
They were all annointed.
The Jews have had many who they thought were the messiah who would come to fight their enemies through the ages.
Bar Kockba was proclaimed a messiah by Rabbi Akiba. He succussfully fought the romans and tossed them out of Israel, but alas they came back in larger numberss.

Moishe Dyan who defeated 6 arab armies, is thought by some to be a messiah.

But if you check, neither the OT nor the NT says that Gd himself, in any form will be the messiah.
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Bushbadee@aol.com

[missionms]

[bush badee]

Missionems wrote


[quote]When Christ stood before the high priest, He gave a clear affirmative answer to the question whether He was the Christ/Messiah (Matt. 26:63-64). And His reply was given under oath.

In both John 10:36 and Matt. 26:63 the phase "Son of God" is used, which some claim means something less than deity in order to avoid the conclusion that Christ claimed to be God. This is not so.

In Jewish usage the term "son of....." did not generally imply any subordination, but rather equality and identity of nature. Thus Bar Kokba, who led the Jewish revolt 132-135 A.D. in the reign of Hadrian,[/quote]

I can not believe how many historical mistakes you make and how you misinterpet the bible.
I do not have the time to correct all your mistakes but let us look at what you said above.

First of all we do not know if Jesus stood before any one, but one thing is for sure, he never stood before any Jewish High Priest.
There was no Jewish high priest or Sanhedren at the time.
Just Roman appointees,

Your lack of understanding of Judiasm keeps you from knowing that Jews, particularly religious one like Jesus would have been are forbidden from taking oaths.
You apply todays Christian Morays to Jewish Morays of 2000 years ago.

John is an anti semitic tract written by Christianss who had little to no Knowledge of Judiasm.
We have only to look at the 1000 year older Torah to see that "Son (or Sons) of Gd" is a term often applied to Jews singularly and collectively.
The Jewish use of the termm merly meant Jewish and not subordinate or equal.
Aagain you use Christian usage instead of the then current Jewish usage and try to prove your point with Christian documenmts written centuries after the fact.

Your also wrong about Bar Kockba. but there is just to much to correct in what you have written for me to spend time on.
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Bushbadee@aol.com

[bush badee]

Pharell wrote
[quote]
This obviously includes Ishmael, whom the Arabs are descended from because even after Abraham died, Ismael is addressed as "Abrahams's son" in the Bible;
[/quote]

No it does not obviously include Ismael
The Arabs have absolutely no descent from Ismael.
The descendents of Ismael died out over 2000 years ago.

Also the arabs are more likely descendent from the Amalikites who were raiders going back to the times of Moses and who are supposed to have raided Mose's column leaving Egypt and have been oppressors and attackers of Jews for about 3000 years.

In any case The right of the Jews to Israel does not depend on the bible.

Do you think a bunch of Buddist, Hindus and others who comprised the league of nations gave the least fiddle about the Jewish and Christian bibles.
The land of Israel belongs to the Jews through international law which was recognized by the league of nations.

Also,Pharell I do not think you want to be descendent from Ismael in any case. Remember in that bible you quote, Gd told Hagar that for all eternity, her descendents would have all the hands in the world raised against them and that they would have thier hands perpetually raised agains the world including their own brothers.

HMMM perhaps arabs are descendent from Ismael.
_________________
to answere directly email to
Bushbadee@aol.com

[Madam_Rouge]

I find it funny that Pharell is using the bible (which according to him has been altered) and hes using it to his advantage to try to prove his point. But whats going on in Israel is wrong, the jews of hebrew decent who had dwelled in the "Promised land" for centuries, are not related to the "Russian-polock" jews who seem to be occupying israel in droves. These groups of Jews seem to think they have some right to this land, when in actuallity they do not because they are not of hebrew decent. Ive watched many documentries of what occured in the 1920's and 30's between jewish immagrants and the native palis, and quite frankly the jews seemed to show an ungreatfull attitude towards the palis, and the british government. The israeli government pays jews to come to israel from russia all the time. These russians hate arabs, they even hate hebrew jews. These jews are racist, they were never given this land nor were their ancesters. Hebrews were given the land, and these jews dont have respect for the original inhabitants of the land. I have a jewish friend who can verify the fact that hebrew jews are treated different then russian jews in israel. So this is more about racism than it is about who was given what land. The present day inhabitants of Israel are ungreatful theives.

[bush badee]

Hello Madam.
I hope this finds you well.
By the way, you do not know what you are talking about.

[Madam_Rouge]

EXCUSE ME HOW DARE YOU CALL ME ANTI-SEMITE FOR YOUR KIND INFORMATION MR KNOW NOTHING I HAVE JEWISH FRIENDS WHOES PARENTS HAD MIGRATED FROM IRAN AND IRAQ TO LIVE IN ISRAEL. SO NOW YOU ARE ALSO SAYING THEY ARE IGNORANT FOR PROVIDING ME THIS INFORMATION? YOU ARE SAYING THAT THEIR PARENTS ARE ALSO WRONG AS WELL AND KNOW NOTHING OF THEIR HISTORY BUT YOU DO? NO SEEMS YOU ARE A RAVING LUNATIC WHO IS HERE TO BASH MUSLIMS ONLY BUT YOU TURN A BLIND EYE TO ZIONISM WHICH IN MY OPINION IS ON PAR WITH ISLAMIC TERRORISM. BTW PEOPLE WHO ARE SO QUICK TO TOSS OUT THE WORD ANTI-SEMITE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WONT STOP PLAYING THE VIOLIN MUSIC OF THE HALLACAUST, AND THINK THAT ZIONISM IS ONLY A RUMOR SPREAD BY ANTI-SEMITES. ZIONISM IS HURTING THE JEWS INSTEAD OF HELPING THEM. ZIONISTS DONT CARE ABOUT YOU ME OR ANYONE ELSE THEY CARE ABOUT THEIR CAMPAIGNE. I GUESS I WILL HAVE TO GET MY FRIENDS TO COME ON THIS BOARD AND SET YOU STRAIGHT CAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE YOU ARE A SUPPORTER OF ZIONISM AND THE KILLING OF INNOCENT PEOPLE.

[bush badee]

[bush badee]

You know it is one thing to be an anti semite.
It is another to be a stupid anti semite.
Come to think of it, I guess they do go together.
_________________
to answere directly email to
Bushbadee@aol.com

[Madam_Rouge]

My blood is boiling now, you are now trying to label me a muslim and on top of it all your trying to say I dont have jewish friends and that their parents dont know crap? Seems to me you are a ZIONIST who hates hebrews cause you are denying their existance, I CAUGHT YOU!!!! now take your hatred elsewhere. You are the ANTI-SEMITE and you are probably a russian/polock jew. GET OUT OF ISRAEL ITS NOT YOUR COUNTRY!!!!

[bush badee]

rouge wrote

[Unknown 257]

That was a super smack down, bush badee. That "rouge" moron had it coming!