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Do muslims have an idol? muslims say no!! I say yes>>&
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This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> Muhammad
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aseman



Joined: 19 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

funny muslims Laughing
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salmany



Joined: 17 May 2003
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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2003 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, book of Hajj, chapter 56, H.No. 675. Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, "I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you".

Also at the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the 'adhaan' or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims worship the black stone which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?
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Yohan



Joined: 19 Dec 2002
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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2003 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

salmany wrote:
According to Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, book of Hajj, chapter 56, H.No. 675. Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, "I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you".

Also at the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the 'adhaan' or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims worship the black stone which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?

You have said that you didn't trust many hadiths. What makes you trust this one? Or it just so happened that you didn't trust only those hadiths which detail Mohammed's sex with a child.

First, Umar was NO prophet. The key here is that Mohammed kissed the stone. He was the prophet of Allah. He was the mother of all idol breakers. Wasn't he? Why would such a prophet of God kiss a stone? Why didn't he throw it into garbage? Instead he reverently kissed it. Didn't he? Why would Mohammed do such a thing unless he believed that the stone had some divinity in it? Don't you think so?

So what makes the stone divine and an object of worship for Muslims? It was the very fact that Mohammed considered it divine enough to kiss it. That was why even though Umar hesitated first, he couldn't just walk away without reverently kissing it.

So, how can you claim that the black stone of Mecca is not an object of worship? Please answer.
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CroMagnon



Joined: 28 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2003 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From:
http://whatsthisthen.netfirms.com/islamicquotes.html#stonesalute
Quote:
There is a sahih hadith from Muslim that tells us how the black stone used to pay salutations to Mohammed in the pre-islamic, pagan era when Mohammed himself was still a pagan non-muslim.

Sahih Muslim, Book 030, Number 5654:
Quote:
Jabir b. Samura reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I recognise the stone in Mecca which used to pay me salutations before my advent as a Prophet and I recognise that even now.


We may assume that this was the reason Mohammed made kissing the black stone part of one of the pillars of faith - the islamic pilgrimage - the Hajj.

It was in the pre-islamic 'era of ignorance' that Mohammed grew up. It was the period when the black stone was still the subject of various pagan rites in honour of female godesses like Allat, Manat and Uzza, and when stone-kissing and stone-worshipping in general was not uncommon among the arab tribes .

After Mohammed declared himself a prophet he maintained the pagan rite of kissing the black stone, and incorporated it into the islamic rituals, even to the amazement of some of his followers:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 679:
Quote:
Narrated Zaid bin Aslam that his father said: "I saw 'Umar bin Al-Khattab kissing the Black Stone and he then said, (to it) 'Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you, (stone) I would not have kissed you.' "


Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667:
Quote:
Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia: 'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."


(note how they talk to the stone as if it can hear and understand them)

Also funny - and again pointing to animistic influences:

The Miracles of the Holy Prophet (PBUH)
http://www.geocities.com/islamicmiracles/miracles_of_the_holy_prophet.htm
Quote:
6. Stones used to greet the Prophet whenever he passed by through the lanes of Makka.


Prophet Muhammad's Physical Miracles
http://www.geocities.com/islamicmiracles/muhammad_pbuh_physical_miracles.htm
Quote:
Glorification by the Food and Greetings by Rocks and Trees:

Rocks used to greet the Prophet. Sahih Muslim quotes Jaber ibn Samrah as having said: The prophet told us that he could detect a rock in Makkah, which used to greet him, before he was raised as a prophet. Ali. May Allah be pleased with him, as reported by Al-Tirmidhi and others, said: I was strolling with the Prophet once on the outskirts of Makkah, I noticed that not a tree or a rock he passed did let him pass without murmuring: Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah.


For still more info, see also:

The Influence of Animism on Islam
- an account of popular superstitions -

http://answering-islam.org/Books/Zwemer/Animism/


.
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arifqurashi



Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 322

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2003 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You pagans have it all wrong, for those of you who don't know the real story behind the kissing of the "stone"...

In ancient times there was a rich woman named Khadija, she was getting old and could not run her business, she had a successful cleaning service called Khadija's Idol cleaning service Inc., her slogan was, "We clean everything!". She wanted to expand her business so she hired a young energetic man named Mohammed to run her business. The company had many workers who cleaned the toilets of Kaaba, there were other workers who cleaned the idols that got dirty in those treacherous sand storms.
It so happened that when Mohammed took over as CEO for some reason his workers began to slowly quit. Kaaba was not getting cleaned, the toilets were piling up and the idols were getting dirty. The main caretaker of Kaaba whose name happened to be Sheikh Arif-ul-Haq Qureshi was a mean dude, he was known to run the place with an iron rod or fist I forget. One day Mohammed showed up and his few workers did not, this Arif dude grabbed young Mohammed by his hair and made him scrub the toilets clean. Then he made Mohammed clean the three main statues of Allat, Manat and Uzza. These three women statues were necked, they had a pause that was somewhat like this, bent slightly, one finger pointing to their naked backsides, as if to say, kiss right here!. The statues were tall enough that an average standing male's head was right at their butt level. It was customary that only the cleaners were allowed to get close to the statues and only they got to kiss the, you guessed it, the bear necked ladies cheaks, or moons as they were refered to in those days.
This cruel treatment that the Qureshi dude leveled upon young Mohammed had a lasting effect on Mohammed. He hated kissing the moons of the three goddesses Allat, Manat and Uzza. Mohammed swore to destroy the idols, unfortunately when he did finally get to do that he came also to kill that mean Qureshi dude, but alas Qureshi had already died of natural causes. Mohamed assembled the moons of shattered Allat together and put them in a place where to this day, Allat's once porcelain butt gets kissed by billions of Mohammed's followers.

This true story has been handed down to me from my forefathers.

Arif Qureshi
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salmany



Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 154
Location: NY

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2003 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yohan wrote:
salmany wrote:
According to Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, book of Hajj, chapter 56, H.No. 675. Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, "I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you".

Also at the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the 'adhaan' or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims worship the black stone which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?

You have said that you didn't trust many hadiths. What makes you trust this one? Or it just so happened that you didn't trust only those hadiths which detail Mohammed's sex with a child.

First, Umar was NO prophet. The key here is that Mohammed kissed the stone. He was the prophet of Allah. He was the mother of all idol breakers. Wasn't he? Why would such a prophet of God kiss a stone? Why didn't he throw it into garbage? Instead he reverently kissed it. Didn't he? Why would Mohammed do such a thing unless he believed that the stone had some divinity in it? Don't you think so?

So what makes the stone divine and an object of worship for Muslims? It was the very fact that Mohammed considered it divine enough to kiss it. That was why even though Umar hesitated first, he couldn't just walk away without reverently kissing it.

So, how can you claim that the black stone of Mecca is not an object of worship? Please answer.


yohan obviously you have no concept of Rijal. So until you do please dont make such blunderous comments Smile

Just some advice bro...no offense.

Sallam
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Ari



Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 976
Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2003 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Shariq Jamal Reply with quote

Quote:
[quote="Shariq Jamal"]
snoopy wrote:
Shariq Jamal wrote:

You need to rethink equality, obviously.


Laughing In other words, if I treat you like crap but tell you it's equality, then it's equality.


[color=darkred]Equality and sameness are two quite different things. This difference is understandable because man and woman are not identical but they are created equals.


Then how does this non-sameness justify Koranic injunction to admonish and beat wives but not the other way around? Are you saying that women are more prone to straying than men or women are too dumb to know when their men are straying?


Ari
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