Faith Freedom International

abdullahnoor · Joined: 18 Jan 2003 Posts: 990

VF, Bob, Crow

I asked Egyptian Kafir this

Student · Joined: 29 Aug 2002 Posts: 140

Abdullah,

I notice that you always end each post with some sliming of the Bible. Not surprising. Even in my country, an overwhelming majority of Muslims detest Christianity openly, even Muslim kids.

Somewhat, I detect a great sense of resentment and bitterness of Muslims towards Christians and Jews. (Do you know that Israeli citizens are barred entry in my country?). Yeah yeah yeah, they always like to play up the Crusades and stuff, always teaching their kids how the Jews and Crusaders had hurt the Muslims, deprived them of this and that, sabotaged their Islamic paradises, screwed their economies and so on. Hardly any Muslims I know would tell their kids how many Christians their Ottoman Turks (Muslims) had killed, how many churches were burnt down or converted to mosques. Why is it that you Muslims always feel that you have a monopoly of grievances? Are you telling us that the world has wronged you, while you Muslims had done absolutely nothing to hurt others?
Germany is remorseful over the Holocaust, Japan over WW2, but Muslims I know are particularly proud of the way they conquer and lord it over non-Muslims. In my country, the Muslims are insistent on lording it over non-Muslims, and reminding us constantly who is number 1.

Regarding slavery, if Islam (and Muslims) really abolished slavery in steps as you claimed, then why was slavery still so widespread in the Islamic world? From what I understand, the last countries to abolish slavery were Muslim countries. What gives, Abdullah??? Or are Muslims "not following" the teachings of Muhammad the PIG! Oops, prophet, I mean..

If Christians and Jews were really devout practitioners of slavery, then why were it Christian countries (or Judeo-Christian-influenced countries) that spearheaded the anti-slavery movement?

If Islam was truly against slavery, it should had been Muslims to pressure Christians and Jews to give up their slaves. But in reality, it was the reverse. Muslims were pressured by non-Muslims to end the practice of slavery.

So, what does that tell us about the teachings of the Quran?
Anyway, why does every society that embraces the Quran start to decline and rot??

Be sure about this: Slavery was NEVER abolished in Islamic states because of Muslim goodwill. Neither was slavery abolished because the Quran championed the cause of humanity. Slavery in Islamic state was abolished by the strong influence and pressure exerted by NON-MUSLIMS!!!!

Muhammad the PIG oopps.. prophet I mean. (there I go again), himself was a slave-trader and slave-owner. He made slaves of others, traded in them and accepted slaves. Why on earth would you think Muhammad's Allah would ban slaves? It would had been against the interests of Muhammad.

If the Quran was half as good as what the PIG had insisted, then it should be us Kafirs who would be lining up for citizenship in KSA, Egypt, etc etc. But in reality, it is the Muslims who want citizenship in kafir countries.

bob · Joined: 05 Jan 2003 Posts: 370 Location: Paris, France

Abdullahnoor
Here than are answers to your questions.

CroMagnon · Joined: 28 Apr 2002 Posts: 2112 Location: West Kafiristan

Chingachgook · Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 261 Location: White Eagle Land

abdullahnoor · Joined: 18 Jan 2003 Posts: 990

bob

Ampbreia · Joined: 10 Oct 2002 Posts: 476 Location: U.S.A.

Hi Abdullahnoor!

You wrote:

Student · Joined: 29 Aug 2002 Posts: 140

Ampbreia · Joined: 10 Oct 2002 Posts: 476 Location: U.S.A.

Good points Student! Very Happy

A good leader leads by example or he is simply a dictator. There is a marked difference between the examples set by Jesus and by Mohammad, isn't there? I think the Christian church had its worst problems because it had political power then and, since the New Testement isn't really supportive of political mechanations, they seem to have borrowed rather heavily from the archane and brutal Old Testement whenever it was convient. Religion mandated politicians are dangerous because, like any politicians, they are power hungry and will manipulate anything, even/especially their own religion to get what they want. This is why we separate religion from state: you thereby keep the power-hungry from manipulating people's beliefs in cruel and selfish ways and leave the truly sincere to practice the truest forms of the peaceful versions of their religion in peace.

Crow · Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 11:57 am Post subject:

Crogmanon, Crow and Bob

[/quote]You people keep saying that you have nothing against Muslims and everything against Islam. Yet time and time again, you condemn Islam for what Muslims do and not what Islam teaches.

As I said, your words don’t match. If you really are sincere, you will judge Islam for what it teaches and not what Muslims do.[/quote]

Abdullah, I have read the quran. There are many verses that are VERY VAUGE, hence there is no definate ruling on what islam teaches in such situations. How can there be a TRUE ISLAM when there are so many different ways of interpreting some of the quran's verses? And its no doubt that a lack of a derfinate forbiddance of slavery would allow for it to continue. I dont see why you would slam me or anyone else for pointing out that fact.
_________________

KAMIKAZE WATERMELON!

Fischerspooner is weird..but cool

Aragorn · Joined: 23 Oct 2002 Posts: 61

Salaam,

Why do all you people just use examples of modern muslims? Of course they're not a good example. The Islamic empire fell, and is now corrupt. Stop whining about actions of muslims today, they have no meaning.

Why didn't Islam ban slavery? It was an integral part of Arabian society, when are you going to understand it? What would happen if they "freed" their slaves anyways? What could the slaves have done? Islam forbids you from merely taking slaves, like the arabs did when they attacked a tribe.

As for the whole marrying "what your right hands posses", this doesn't simply means slave. The actual arabic word meant captives from a physical jihad where the slave could not be ransomed or sent back. I also think it said it applied to women who fought in wars to eridicate Islam. I don't have the actual book right now, but I'll post in detail when I do.

Crow · Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 4:03 pm Post subject:

No one is arguing that slavery was not a part of arabian society. But the point is, slavery lasted LONG after islam supposedly "put a stop to it", as abdullah here would say to you. Besides, you'd think god, since it(refuses to call the proposed creator by a male or female name) created us, would be able to eradicate, through muhammad, slavery and enlighten the hearts of it's followers. But of course, it did not turn out that way. Instead, there has been SO MUCH SUFFERING on the hands of islamic slavers! Yes, I realise muslims were most certainly not the only group to enslave people. But for a way of life that supposedly put a stop to such barbaric and primitive practices, those traditions went on for a hell of a long time after the advent of the religion!

What could the slaves have done? Sheesh, what do you think they'd do?? Stand around not knowing what to do with themselves? Of course not! Rolling Eyes

They would have been FREE, hence they could live their own lives, with help from the community stake it out on their own. I realise arabian life was/is hard, but they most certainly had ways of earning a living. Their FORMER masters, being the kind and generous Wink

muslims that they were, could teach their former servants how to earn a living.
_________________

KAMIKAZE WATERMELON!

Fischerspooner is weird..but cool

Crow · Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 4:07 pm Post subject:

Another thing, since the religion has been so "corrupted", dont you think thats a sign that the whole faith in it's self is unrealistic and vauge in it's teachings? Look at the quran, for instance. Many people interpret the verses quite differently. So what is "true islam" and how to we asses this? The truth it, no one knows. It cannot be done, because people will always interpret these verses differently. Its the nature of the book.
_________________

KAMIKAZE WATERMELON!

Fischerspooner is weird..but cool

bob · Joined: 05 Jan 2003 Posts: 370 Location: Paris, France

Abdullahnoor

No-one is supporting what the OT says about slaves and concubines. You should really be asking your question to a Jew. (There's Free Persian here on FFI who converted from Islam to Judaism). A lot of us here are secular humanists who are pleased and relieved that laws are made in Western democracies with no concern for any religious dogma. I'm very glad that I am living in a country that is officially secular and where a President can be elected (Mitterrand) who was an avowed atheist. So aren't you sending your arrows in the wrong direction? If I were living in France in the 18th Century at a time when Catholic dogma ruled the roost and punishment awaited those who stepped out of line then I would have been (hopefully) up in arms against such tyranny.

You maintain that slaves were treated better under Islam then in the Christian Americas. AND BASICALLY YOUR ARE RIGHT. Islam THEORETICALLY or, if you like theologically, enjoins upon slave-owners forms of conduct which should result in slaves being treated better than in Christian countries. But you are thereby tacitly CONDONING the practice of slavery BECAUSE it occurs under Islam and here YOU ARE WRONG.

What personally gets up my nose is that you close a politically correct blind eye to slavery in Islam that not only WAS but IS being practiced by ‘devout’ Muslims :

abdullahnoor · Joined: 18 Jan 2003 Posts: 990

Ah, so the flooding has returned! I did say in my very first post here that one of the tactics employed by this sick site is flooding! Notice that this happens just when EK lets up? Here is that link to my very first post
http://forum.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?t=3221&start=0

Now compare the flooding here, to my point number 1!

Face it Muslim haters! After five pages and more than a hundred posts, you have failed to address the main topic of this thread. The MAIN TOPIC is that it is the BIBLE that propagates sex slavery!

That main topic has YET TO BE ADDRESSED BY YOU!

All you brought up is what Muslims do. But if you want to condemn Islam, then you have to talk about what Islam teaches, not what Muslims do.

On the other hand, your persistent insistence that Christians DID do something to arrest slavery only shows that Christian scriptures ARE NOT EQUIPPED to stop slavery, hence the need to have SECULAR LAWS to arrest that slavery.

Talking about the Bible not being the Law for Christians? Did not Jesus in Matthew Chp 5:17 say that every law should be followed? I gave that quote some posts ago. Funny thing how Muslim haters here accuse me of not reading, when they too don’t read. And considering that I am the one who gets flooded, not them!

Bob, I notice you completely remain silent about my query if you would prefer to see explicit verses on abolishment of sex slavery, the way you see it was done to gambling and drinking. I also notice that EK, the originator of that argument has not answered me too.

Now the question is, if you are not willing to back your statements, why bring them up in the first place? Is this not flooding too?

So after all the crap, the slime, flooding and the heated words, the main issue is still not addressed – the real source of sex slavery, that is the Bible, goes scot-free and unscathed, whereas, the Quran, gets condemned!

According to Yusuf Ali, 4:25 is meant to free slaves.

I said this before and I will say it again. Note the hypocrisy of Muslim haters who use sex slavery to slime Islam. If they really are concerned about the women slaves, they would condemn the real preachers of sex slavery, that is THE BIBLE, and praise Islam for the positive steps to eradicate sex slavery.

Instead, these hypocrites talk about what Muslims do and not what Islam teaches, and at the same time, talk about what Christians do and avoid what Christianity teaches!

This shows that they are finding ways to condemn Islam, while whitewashing Christianity. But then again, these bigots and hypocrites came with the specific intention to SLIME ISLAM AND ONLY ISLAM!

Hence, the double standards of application by these hypocrites!

So here it is one more time.

The Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery. Muslim haters DO NOTHING to oppose it.

The Quran sets up steps in stages to end sex slavery. This is evident in 4:25, as according to Yusuf Ali. Yet, Muslim haters DO ALL THEY CAN to slime Islam.

The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy found in those who hate Muslims and Islam!

So indeed, this is a hate site!
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.

If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” Smile

Student · Joined: 29 Aug 2002 Posts: 140

Egyptian Kafir · Joined: 29 Jan 2003 Posts: 474

So SlaveOfAllah Is Still Repeating His Arguing over and over..

abdullahnoor · Joined: 18 Jan 2003 Posts: 990

Note that the MAIN POINT OF THIS THREAD – the source of sex slavery – the BIBLE, still remains UNCONDEMNED, whereas the Quran gets the flak!

Student

Read your bible. I have given you the appropriate verses. Matthew Chp 5:17 states clearly that Jesus came to enforce the law. In my first post in this thread, I have shown you Moses preached that the law enabled you to capture sex slaves.

Your Bible said it, not me.

Muslims have always maintained that the Jews and Christians twisted the words of the scriptures. We never believed that Moses and Jesus endorsed sex slavery to that point. But your twisted Bible said it so, crystal clear.

I suggest that before you slime the Quran, read your own Bible. That is the least decent thing you should do.

So Egyptian Kafir, the twister who retracts his statements when he finds it works to his disfavour has returned! The one who used conjecture and goofed on the meaning harisa and riba is now trying to twist more meanings!

Chingachgook · Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 261 Location: White Eagle Land

scepsis · Joined: 10 Nov 2002 Posts: 647

abdullahnoor says: "They use what Muslims do to slander Islam and refuse to study what Islam teaches."
Studying what islam teaches doesn't seem to have had much effect on moslems, then.

S/he adds: "whose words and actions don't match, indicating hypocrisy"; presumably this is true of moslems too.

A question of fact: how long would it have taken for Mahomet's/god's enlightened, and, if you're male, own female slaves, and aren't too bothered about how you obtain consent, enjoyable, method of freeing slaves, to lead to the abolition of slavery? It was only when others intervened that moslems [officially] stopped keeping or capturing slaves, so, presumably, a few more thousand years would be needed. Does abdullahnoor favour restoring slavery, so that it will end only when god, rather than a bunch of ignorant and prejudiced unbelievers, wants it to end?

Student · Joined: 29 Aug 2002 Posts: 140