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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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 Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 8:27 am Post subject: |
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dontkillme
I think you are on Mars. I have already ages ago, said that Muslims INHERITED the slavery system. Your resource only confirms my point.
But what you people now have to show is that 4:25 is NOT MEANT to free slaves. Because I have shown you that according to Yusuf Ali, it is meant to free slaves.
That is the point now. It was not the point a few days ago. But EK retracted his very important resource, because he felt that resource was not to his advantage.
Unfortunately, in withdrawing that resource, he now leaves Yusuf Ali’s interpretation of 4:25, that it is meant to free slaves, unchallenged.
Hence this is the challenge I have issued EK. You may wish to help him out if you wish.
According to Yusuf Ali, 4:25 is meant to free slaves.
What resource have you to say 4:25 is a “non-slave freeing verse”?
I said this before and I will say it again. Note the hypocrisy of Muslim haters who use sex slavery to slime Islam. If they really are concerned about the women slaves, they would condemn the real preachers of sex slavery and praise Islam for the positive steps to eradicate sex slavery. So here it is one more time.
The Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery. Muslim haters DO NOTHING to oppose it.
The Quran sets up steps in stages to end sex slavery. This is evident in 4:25, as according to Yusuf Ali. Yet, Muslim haters DO ALL THEY CAN to slime Islam.
The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy found in those who hate Muslims and Islam!
So indeed, this is a hate site!
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If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!”  |
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Some_Guy
Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 264
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| abduallhnoor wrote: | The Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery. Muslim haters DO NOTHING to oppose it.
The Quran sets up steps in stages to end sex slavery. This is evident in 4:25, as according to Yusuf Ali. Yet, Muslim haters DO ALL THEY CAN to slime Islam.
The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy found in those who hate Muslims and Islam! |
Oh, shut up! You've made your point; we understand.
I know that the bible is full of verses that condone slavery. I'm not alone in this regard. Whay is Christanity not being covered here, why is it mostly Islam? Because Christianity and Judiasm have been de-mystified, Islam has not, hence the resason for this site. Remember I've read the bible; why do think I'm and atheist?
| Quote: | | So indeed, this is a hate site! |
Either shut up or fnd a new tag line. Like I said before, "Anybondy who critiques Islam is a racist" is popular.
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The Holy Religion of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both faith and logic. We have faith that She is pink, and we logicaly know that she is invisible because we can't see Her. |
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bob
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 370
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't the most important point that the Quran and hadith have CONSISTENLY BEEN INTERPRETED BY MUSLIMS FOR OVER 1000 YEARS in such a way that that they consider slavery permissible? After all, how can something be PROHIBITED that is not prohibited by Allah? In the 19th Century, the Ottomans, under pressure from European countries tried to put an end to the African slave trade (Arabia was then under Ottoman control). The main slaving port for Arabs was Zanzibar from where Africans were shipped to the slave market in Jeddah. Here concubines (sex slaves) could be bought and sold by devout Muslims. Slavery was officially abolished in KSA in…… 1961.
The gradual (but not total) disappearance of slavery from the Islamic world has NOTHING to do with the progressive application of Islamic law. All four main schools of fiqh have condoned slavery. The momentum against slavery in the Islamic world had external sources. It was the British who put an end to the East African slave trade. Also a country cannot be a member of the UN if it has legalised slavery.
As EK has pointed out, nowhere in the Quran or hadith is it stated that a Muslim man is OBLIGED to marry a slave girl. That is NOT the same thing as "laying the foundations'' for the gradual abolition of sex slavery. In any case, what if the female slave retorted to her master. "What, marry my rapist who has penetrated me on countless occasions without my consent? If you now want me to be free (sic), just set me free without any strings attached. I'd rather die than be the wife of such a swine." ?
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dontkillme
Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 275
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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I, for one, have never stated that 'Islam propagates sex slavery' (as far as I remember) and I have no idea who has. I didn't even have an opinion on it, but I was surprised by your contrary claims and also various (widely disseminated) claims that Islam wiped out slavery.
So I did many hours of basic research and listed about 30 quotes all of which appear to say that Islam approved of slavery and of sex with slaves.
Your claim about having her master's baby immediately making her free appears to be wrong, unless you have better quotes.
The idea that Mohammed wanted to end slavery appear to be wrong, unless you have better quotes.
The idea that Mohammed objected to masters having sex with slaves appears to be wrong, unless you have better quotes.
All the quotes are summarised and listed in detail and can be checked by any reader by clicking on this link:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=48607#48607
As far as I am concerned that is the end of the matter. Your statements appear to be vastly contradicted by those quotes and I am not keen on spending more hours arguing over one 'expert opinion' which those quotes strongly contradict.
You seem to be quoting one 'expert' who has his own interpretation of some verse and okay he has an interpretation. If you or he can show evidence dated from the time of Mohammed which shows that Mohammed and his followers agree with your 'expert's opinion' then you and he can try to explain the quotes apparently contradicting your expert.
°°°°°
On a general note why is it that Allah and Mohammed are incapable of writing clear simple instructions? Such as:
"Although it is customary for masters to have sex with their slaves Allah wishes to see this practice gradually reduced and eventually ceasing. To ease this change those alive in the time of Our Messenger may continue the practice, but their (not yet born) sons and later generations must not. Transgressors will be punished."
Instead we have verses that require notes and judgements because they are so absurdly badly written.
So this is my final post on this subject because as far as I am concerned the quotes show the complete acceptance of slavery, the assumption that masters had sex with them without marriage and that the a slave which gave birth did not go free until after the death of the master.
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Abdu you do the same thing over and over. You pick some quote, interpretation or belief and then require others to disprove it.
That is a game for believers, not for sensible persons.
Perhaps you are being serious in such statements, and if so it is a reflection of your being a believer. I know from our discussions of 'Universe: designed or not designed' that you refuse to accept the initial step of starting from scepticism and that you insist that you have won because you demand that everyone disprove your claims. If they can't disprove your claims you claim victory.
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On 'sliming' the Bible:
For about 100 years or maybe more we have known that the Christian Old Testament is myth and distorted history and nonsense, and that the New Testament is possibly nothing to do with the radical Jew known as Jesus, but that doesn't stop millions of people calling themselves Christians or hoping that they will be reunited with their dead loved ones after death. (And there are posters on this site who claim that the Bible is true !!! )
That's believers for you.
There are lots of people who have freely published exposés of the idiocy and errancy of that book, and still people believe.
What can one do?
Here I am, a complete non-expert in Islam (knew virtually nothing about it last year) putting in hours of effort as if my superficial views would have any effect in the world, but as there seems to be a huge absence of serious sceptical analysis I feel compelled to try to combat this idiocy.
I don't bother 'sliming' the Bible because it has already been totally discredited and there are lots of people far more capable than I who have destroyed its credibility and denounced it.... but still people believe.....
As Edison said of such persons "incurably religious"
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Egyptian Kafir
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Your sudden attacks of amnesia sure do come at a very convenient time, just when you need it! Didn’t you just say you could buy slaves off the market? Why now ask who is this every other “she”?
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yes you can buy slaves off the market, whats your point? how will THEY be affected?
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Come on! I asked you if harisa meant other things than what you said. You said no all the way. Finally you conceded that harisa could also mean the uncovering of a woman’s head! A liar lying that he did not lie? |
No, its Uncovering of a woman's Head and Arms , in addition to the fully naked Meaning, Now For Islam's View And for Their Time Is this a state Were A woman is partially declothed or no , this is not a state Were a Woman should be seen by a man At Mo's Time...or are you viewing this with TODAY'S Standards, should I remind you with what you keep saying regarding Aisha's marryage that
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Face it. You may say what you like. The fact is that you only admitted it AFTER I highlighted it. Speaks volumes about your character
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You Face it, You Took A story I Gave as an example of a muslim man who lived at a specific time As a real Event and Trying To push this on Me To Avoid answering the simle question I Gave you regarding it  ...seemingly you dont have satisfying answer to it.
again:
DID NOT ISLAM ERADICATE SEX SLAVERY? PROVE FROM QURAN AND HADITH THAT THE MUSLIM WHO HAD SEX WITH HIS SLAVE MADE A SIN !
too hard?
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Now that you retract that resource, I challenge you again.
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lol...ABD is getting alittle shaky here and seemingly regreting his shameful concede of his challenge by trying to connect it to that specefic link, are you sure that you want to repeat your challenge of that thread? let me remind you of your own words:
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You ability to understand Arabic is bad. Your ability to understand English is worse. I challenge anyone here to SHOW THAT
1-what Your right hand posses is your slave
2- that you are allowed to have sex with them in islam?
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Let me repeat, are you sure you want to re-challenge me on this after you Conceded it? are willing to see a refutation to these 2 challenges again and get emarrased?
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So it was because of YOUR LINK THAT YOU NOW REJECT that I conceded. If you had not used that link, I would not have conceded!
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AHAHAHAH!
still trying to force important to that link in my argument and connecting it to your conceding , and the redicilouse reason is:
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Here is the link you gave that is so crucial to your argument. Note that the answer it gives on 4:25. It makes NO MENTION of marriage as an end to sex slavery |
So you Conceded because this link does not mention that marryng slaves ends sex slavery ! well there was no mention of this in Ibn katheer's Tafsir too ! why didnt you concede because of it ? Did you concede your challenge because there is a link that did not mention what you want?
what a redicilouse defence.
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I say that it was intended to free slaves, as according to Yusuf Ali. He is considered an expert both in the Tafsir and the Arabic Language. |
Yusuf Ali Is No body Side To Quran Mufassirs like Ibn katheer, Tabari, And Qurtubi that no body of them mentioned What Yusuf Claim, that islam Ended Sex slavery, The Difference Between these People And Yusuf Is that these People Didn't Give a damn About the Non arab world opinion on Islam To sanitized it for their eyes Because they were Talking to the arabs and Muslims themselves , Yusuf Ali Is A Translator and in the modern age, And He Did Care Big time on the image of Islam's Teaching in the west's And So He Added such Comments and Notes And stick it to Quran Verses Like this one.
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You say Ibn Kathir’s interpretation makes no mention that 4:25 is a “slave freeing” verse? But you know how absurd English translations without commentary can be!
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huh? Ibn Kathir's Tafseer IS a COMMENTARY ...what do you think the word "Tafseer" Stands For? Ibn Katheer was Not a "verse Translator" like Yusuf ali  , He is a "Mufassir" or an explainator, and According To all the Sunni Muslims His 6000 pages Book of explaing Quran is The biggest and Most reliable Source ever of explaining Quran, Because unlike Yusuf Ali When He Comment on a verse He does not stick his personal "notes" But He Bring Forh the Source and Reason of His Tafsir of every Verse From Hadith and Seera and Quotes and neither does He Gave a damn to sanitize His Notes to suite the non muslim standards...and the Site i gave you Of ibn Kathirs Tafseer is an [b]official Translation of His Book and its not a word-by-word translation.
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I have evidence that 4:25 is a “slave freeing verse” through Yusuf Ali.
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sorry..Yusuf Ali's NOTES are Not an Evidence, WHERE IN THE VERSE DID IT ORDER ALL MUSLIMS TO MARRY ALL SLAVES? IS THIS LOGICAL? HOW DOES ALLOWING THOSE MUSLIMS WHO WANT TO MARRY SLAVES TO DO ERADICATES THE WHOLE SEX SLAVERY REGIME?
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What resource have you to say 4:25 is a “non-slave freeing verse”, now you rejected your own resource?
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No single Tafseer Mentioned Yusuf Ali's "Note" or lets call it "Decoration" other than Him, so His "notes" Is a Addition .
To make this Boring Story Short , Abd, lets organise Your point on Marrying slaves and its affect on slavery :
1- The Quran Says that those Muslims Who Cant afford Financly Marrying free believing Women May Marry Believing Slaves after the permission of their Masters. (4:25)
2- This Magically Resulted In Eradicating The whole Sex Slavery and ending it ! Allah Akbar ! Ignoring The Fact that sex slavery Was active in the islamic State that applies exact Islamic sharia For 13 centuries !! ALLAH AKBAR !!
BTW, I also find it amusing How you insist on avoiding replying to this :
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so By your own words muslims inherited sex slavery:
Good, then islam inherited the system and kept it, and did not prevent it , unlike the case when muslims inherited Drinking and islam totally Dissallowed it , inherited Gambling and islam totally Dissallowed it, inherited paganism and islam totally dissallowed it.
1-MUSLIMS INHERITED DRINKING AND ISLAM ENDED UP BY TOTALLY PROHIBITING IT (5:90)
2- MUSLIMS INHERITED GAMBLING AND ISLAM ENDED UP BY TOTALLY PRIHIBITING IT (5:90)
3- MUSLIMS INHERITED PAGANISM AND ISLAM ENDED UP BY TOTALLY PRIHIBITING IT
3- MUSLIMS INHERITED SLAVERY AND ISLAM DID NOT DISSALOW IT, BUT KEPT ALLOWING IT IN TWO VERSES AND HADITHS.
so..why is this?
To make it short, All ABOVE shares an element: muslims Have inherited them, But the First three Islam Took steps to PROHIBIT them and ended up with a Dissalowing Law that Abrogates the previous one(s) , For example :drinking , first it said: Do Not Pray while you are Drunk then it said not to Drink at all , The SECOND VERSE ABROGATED THE FIRST VERSE
While Having Sex with slaves is Allowed in Two verses AND No verse Has Came Later To ABROGATE them BY Saying NOT TO DO IT.
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Last edited by Egyptian Kafir on Sat Mar 15, 2003 8:51 pm; edited 9 times in total |
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Farside
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 324
Location: The Other Side
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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To Abdullahnoor
The 13th Amendment to U.S. Constitution is a man-made law outlawing slavery in the U.S. On December 6, 1865 slavery became illegal in all states and territories of the U.S. There is no transition period, and slave owners did not receive any compensation for the loss of their slaves.
You said that | Quote: | | The Quran sets up steps to end sex slavery. |
If Allah is all-powerful and omnipotent, why did he instruct Muhammad to end slavery is steps?
13th Amendment to U.S. Constitution.
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation
Muhammad should have said this in the Quran as the 11th Commandment 
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within Islam, or any place subject to its jurisdiction.
2. Muhammad shall have power to enforce this commandment by appropriate verse. 
From the Far Side  |
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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So if the US constitution can wipe out slavery in one fell swoop and enforce it, then why couldnt muhammad outlaw slavery outright alltogether? It is obviously not impossible. Think about it.
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Egyptian Kafir
Ah, so the liar still insists he didn’t lie!
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yes you can buy slaves off the market, whats your point? how will THEY be affected?
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YOU were the one who brought up that point of buying slaves off the market. Now you ask me how they would be affected? Well if it doesn’t matter to you how they would be affected, then what the heck did you bring that up in the first place for?
Is this not another one of your tricks to divert and mess up the whole discussion? Like your words on harisal, riba, Hafsa, the link you now reject etc etc etc?????
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No, its Uncovering of a woman's Head and Arms
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It still does not mean undress! My point is that you denied it has other meanings than “naked or partially naked”. You denied that, but later conceded! Note your devious attempt to force a meaning to achieve your aims.
And still on the Hafsa issue? Look. You cannot undo what you did. You only admitted it was not the truth AFTER I highlighted it. A thousand more words from you does not change the fact that it was only AFTER my highlight that you admitted.
Again the above shows your character and habit of trying to carve situations to suit your answers. Like the harisa case, like the riba case, like the link you now reject!
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are you sure that you want to repeat your challenge of that thread? let me remind you of your own words:
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1-what Your right hand posses is your slave
2- that you are allowed to have sex with them in islam?
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That was the battle I lost. Now comes the war, which you have lost, when you gave up that link, but still trying to fight hard to win without it!
The issue now boils down to the point whether Islam did eradicate it.
I brought up Yusuf Ali’s commentary, to which you object. You brought up Ibn Kathir’s commentary, which is an English Translation of his works. Consider this.
1. English Translations of work of others tends to give absurd meanings.
2. Even if Ibn Kathir did not link 4:25 to end slavery, does not mean that others do not see it that way.
Putting in a nutshell, you now question Yusuf Ali’s expertise.
If that is the case, I ask who are you, an Arab Linguist wannabe, who goofed on the word “harisa”, who also goofed on the word “riba”, who is known to flip-flop by giving links only to retract them when it is found not to be in your favour, who gives tall stories only to admit it is a fairy tale after being exposed, to challenge a scholarly person as Yusuf Ali?
When you gave the link you objected, you effectively gave the word of a scholar, who thought differently from Yusuf Ali. Hence I conceded your point. Now that you retracted it, it means that you left Yusuf Ali’s interpretation unchallenged.
It must be remembered that Yusuf Ali’s Translation is one of the most widely used books.
The difference between Ibn Kathir’s and Yusuf Ali’s translation is that English translators work on Ibn Kathir’s work. Yusuf Ali on the other hand can claim that it is HIS WORK.
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BTW, I also find it amusing How you insist on avoiding replying to this :
By your own words muslims inherited sex slavery:
Good, then islam inherited the system and kept it, and did not prevent it , unlike the case when muslims inherited Drinking and islam totally Dissallowed it , inherited Gambling and islam totally Dissallowed it, inherited paganism and islam totally dissallowed it.
1-MUSLIMS INHERITED DRINKING AND ISLAM ENDED UP BY DISSALOWING IT (5:90)
2- MUSLIMS INHERITED GAMBLING AND ISLAM ENDED UP BY PRIHIBITING IT (5:90)
3- MUSLIMS INHERITED PAGANISM AND ISLAM ENDED UP BY PRIHIBITING IT
3- MUSLIMS INHERITED SLAVERY AND ISLAM DID NOT DISSALOW IT, BUT ALLOWED IT IN TWO VERSES AND HADITHS.
so..why is this?
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Nope, I have said that 4:25 addresses that. Of course you do not see it because you challenge Yusuf Ali. My question is who are you, to challenge him?
Bob and dontkillme
I have addressed your points in my last post. No need to repost the same thing.
Farside and Crow
All said and done, the bottom line is that Muslim haters here still have YET TO CONDEMN THE REAL PROPAGATORS OF SEX SLAVERY – the Bible! Yet, who put in so much effort to condemn Islam?
Hypocrisy and bigotry at work?
According to Yusuf Ali, 4:25 is meant to free slaves.
I said this before and I will say it again. Note the hypocrisy of Muslim haters who use sex slavery to slime Islam. If they really are concerned about the women slaves, they would condemn the real preachers of sex slavery and praise Islam for the positive steps to eradicate sex slavery. So here it is one more time.
The Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery. Muslim haters DO NOTHING to oppose it.
The Quran sets up steps in stages to end sex slavery. This is evident in 4:25, as according to Yusuf Ali. Yet, Muslim haters DO ALL THEY CAN to slime Islam.
The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy found in those who hate Muslims and Islam!
So indeed, this is a hate site!
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 8:35 am Post subject: |
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[/quote]Farside and Crow
All said and done, the bottom line is that Muslim haters here still have YET TO CONDEMN THE REAL PROPAGATORS OF SEX SLAVERY – the Bible! Yet, who put in so much effort to condemn Islam?
Hypocrisy and bigotry at work?
According to Yusuf Ali, 4:25 is meant to free slaves.
I said this before and I will say it again. Note the hypocrisy of Muslim haters who use sex slavery to slime Islam. If they really are concerned about the women slaves, they would condemn the real preachers of sex slavery and praise Islam for the positive steps to eradicate sex slavery. So here it is one more time.[/quote]
Abdullah, how many times do I have to say this?? I've never BEEN a christian. I dont know very much about christianity. Therefore, all I can say is the bible is no more noble than the quran for it's allowence of slavery. I HAVE been a muslim, and I have read the quran. You can say I have interpreted it wrong, fine. But I am looking at it for what it says. And it most certainly does not FORBID slavery. It says the master may marry his sex slaves, but it does NOT use marriage as a replacement of concubinage. Get it through your thick head already. I DO NOT condone the bible! Please stop wasting my time by accusing me and others of doing nothing to oppose the bible when I and others are clearly stating that the bible is no more noble than the quran. Yes, duh, I know you dont think that the quran is ignoble. But as I obviously think it is, then certainly saying the bible is no more noble than it is a slam! Christianity has just as much contradictions as islam. I've never denied this and I never will.
And let me ask you this, abdullah. If the quran did outlawed slavery, then why is slavery still in existance in some islamic nations? And what about the west? The west got rid of slavery a long time ago! Who really is the propagator of slavery here?
Dont beleive me? I didnt think so. Unless you want to prove to me that you are not willing to look at this with an unbiased mind, you will visit these sites:
www.omdurman.org/leaflets/whiteslv.html
www.strauss.za.com/race_amiel.html
www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/printable.asp?ID=4857
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Egyptian Kafir
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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YOU were the one who brought up that point of buying slaves off the market. Now you ask me how they would be affected? Well if it doesn’t matter to you how they would be affected, then what the heck did you bring that up in the first place for?
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what the hell are babbling about ?? Yes you Can Buy slaves off markets..what is up with this? It seem that there is some kind of misunderstanding on this point because im not aware of what is your point, I'll mention in following points on this reply.
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It still does not mean undress!
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No, It does mean undress, Or are you Seeing this with today's western standards not their old Arabic standrads at mo's time of islamic dressing? wich contradict with what you say on the Aisha's marriage issue on not to measure such marriage with today's standards  ? Did not Muhammad see her in a state where she is not supposed to bee seen in by men as she is not Fully dressed and liked her at that point?
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And still on the Hafsa issue? Look. You cannot undo what you did. You only admitted it was not the truth AFTER I highlighted it. A thousand more words from you does not change the fact that it was only AFTER my highlight that you admitted.
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lol, Still trying to force lieing on that Case To cover your Failure To answer that Question? listen, Its only you who Made this "true event story" , Where did I Ever Claim this To Be a true Event while using Fictional Names that can never exist And I didnt Claim this to Be a true story Because if I did, I would [u]Have To Show My source Because it will be the first thing you will ask me for it! I showed it as an example from the begining for that question And Since you couldnt Answer the question You Made up this stupid Story wich was never meant, To avoid replying , now, Stop these desperate tricks and answer: DID NOT ISLAM ENDED AND STOPPED SEX SLAVERY? PROVE FROM QURAN AND HADITH THAT THE GUY WHO HAD SEX WITH HIS SLAVE HAS MADE A SIN
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Nope, I have said that 4:25 addresses that. Of course you do not see it because you challenge Yusuf Ali. My question is who are you, to challenge him?
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echoing you, My question is who Is Yusuf Ali To Claim something contradicts with Ibn katheer ?
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1. English Translations of work of others tends to give absurd meanings.
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good, you say that, I say this: English Translated commenting on the Quran tends to give Lies To sanitize and decorate Islam.
Have an objection on this? I have an objection on your claim too!
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2. Even if Ibn Kathir did not link 4:25 to end slavery, does not mean that others do not see it that way.
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Fact: No other single Mufassir has ever claimed that this Verse ends the regime of sex slavery, the only one who did this is yusuf Ali...the translator..the sanitizer of islam's image...ALL the other real mufassirs who did not Care about decorating islam for the west and speak honestly of Islam's Cases never Mentioned what yusuf claims because it does not exist that islam prevented sex slavery.
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The issue now boils down to the point whether Islam did eradicate it.
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ok, To make this short:
You Claim that Islam has Made Steps To End slavery...
So Lets organize our points here without shouting and screaming and dissing each other:
This is a commentary on Issues Islam Has actually Elimenated in stages :
Drinking:
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1- first, allowing while explaining its bad sides:
"They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit."
2- then a Prevention from praying while drunk :O ye who believe! approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say.
3-Then, TOTALLY PROHIBITING DRINKING:
:O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan's handiwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
Gambling:
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1- first, allowing while explaining its bad sides: "They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit."
2- Then, TOTALLY PROHIBITING GAMBLING:
:O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan's handiwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
Now, What About our issue,
seX WITH SLAVES?
==============
1- total Allowing :
who abstain from sex; Except from their wives or whom their right hands possess, for (in their case) they are free from blame. (23:5-6)
and
And those who guard their private parts (chastity).) (30. Except from their wives or their right hand possessions -- for (then) they are not blameworthy
(70:30)
2- Prevention in a certain case: ???
3- Total Prevention : ???
Oh, Verse 4:25 You Say?? Lets see what It Says:
"those who do not have the means Wherewith to wed free believing women, They may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess.
Prevention Of Sex With Slaves? NO..Not anywhere in the verse.
An order To All muslims Marry All Slaves? Duh, NO.
An order That Abrogates Having sex with slaves and Marry them instead ? No, this verse Talks to a certain Case of muslims, and its not even an order for them, it says : they MAY
Will this Affect The Whole Sex Slavery REGIME? NO..Its will only affect the Cases of these persons .
==========
In conclusion:
==========
Did islam Set Some Rules on to treat slaves Good? YES
Is the position of slaves in islam a little better that their position in non-islamic places? YES
Are the sex Slaves' Percentage of chance to freedom a little Higher in Islam than other places? YES.
Was Sex slavery In Islam Active and Allowed in the Islamic State that applies exact islamic Sharia for 13 centuries
?YES
Did Islam end/prohibit Sex slavery? NO.
That is my point from the Begining as I stated..Did I Deny that islam Has Set Some orders To Treat slaves Good, no,did I claim that islam propagates/Arouse Sex savery? No and i stated this from the begining, But Islam Did NOT END OR STOP sex slavery..Just put some cases To ake their State Better While Still Allowing it to conitinue and Never Prohibited sex slavery
_________________
“The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.” ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes |
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Crow
| Quote: |
Abdullah, how many times do I have to say this?? I've never BEEN a christian. I dont know very much about christianity. Therefore, all I can say is the bible is no more noble than the quran for it's allowence of slavery. I HAVE been a muslim, and I have read the quran. You can say I have interpreted it wrong, fine. But I am looking at it for what it says. And it most certainly does not FORBID slavery. It says the master may marry his sex slaves, but it does NOT use marriage as a replacement of concubinage. Get it through your thick head already. I DO NOT condone the bible! Please stop wasting my time by accusing me and others of doing nothing to oppose the bible when I and others are clearly stating that the bible is no more noble than the quran. Yes, duh, I know you dont think that the quran is ignoble. But as I obviously think it is, then certainly saying the bible is no more noble than it is a slam! Christianity has just as much contradictions as islam. I've never denied this and I never will.
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Notice that you have once again, justified why you are not as vehement against the Bible as you are against the Quran!
This is in spite of the fact that it is the BIBLE that propagates sex slavery!
Is this not double standard practice and bigotry?
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And let me ask you this, abdullah. If the quran did outlawed slavery, then why is slavery still in existance in some islamic nations?
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You people keep saying you have NOTHING against Muslims but everything against Islam. Yet, all you do is condemning Islam because of what MUSLIMS DO and NOT WHAT ISLAM TEACHES.
Hey, Bigot aka Hypocrite, your words and actions dun match!
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And what about the west? The west got rid of slavery a long time ago! Who really is the propagator of slavery here?
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You speak like a true bigot and hypocrite. Selective memory. Who have been the most successful slave traders in history? Who have made the slave trade into an art? If you look at history, it is Christian Europe. Funny thing is that when America liberated itself, it did not liberate the slaves till much later.
Here is something for you to read. http://www.boondocksnet.com/editions/morel/morel03.html
You are using the sex slave issue to slime Islam. You have no real concern for the women who have suffered or may still be suffering. You use the misfortune of others to leverage your own selfish agenda, that is to grind your axe.
Hypocrite! Shame on you!
Egyptian Kafir
| Quote: |
what the hell are babbling about ?? Yes you Can Buy slaves off markets..what is up with this? It seem that there is some kind of misunderstanding on this point , I'll mention it in following quotes on this reply.
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You tell me! You are the one who have been babbling as if buying slaves off the market is an important and relevant argument! The only misunderstanding I know is that you will retract any argument as an important argument, the moment you cannot uphold it, or if it works against you! This constant babbling of buying slaves off the market is just yet another example!
Still on the harisa case? You have just forced a meaning of “undress” to suit YOUR argument again, isn’t it?
About Hafsa al Sharmut? Like I said, a thousand more words of yours CANNOT CHANGE the fact you only owned up AFTER I highlighted it. This has been your tactic. As with the harisa case, the riba case, the link you rejected, and now the latest, the “buying slaves off the market” case!
What you do is to flood, flood, flood, till you are exposed and can no longer uphold those points!
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echoing you, My question is who Is Yusuf Ali To Claim something contradicts with Ibn katheer ?
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YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE! I NEVER said Yusuf Ali contradicted Ibn Kathir.
But of course, YOU WOULD like it to be interpreted as that, wouldn’t you? But I have exposed you that you carve your arguments and flood. Still trying the same dirty trick huh?
I said that since we depend on the English translation, we are working directly on Yusuf Ali’s work. As for Ibn Kathir, we are not looking at his work, but the work of ENGLISH TRANSLATORS of his work.
This of course would mean that the English Translators may miss out any of Ibn Kathir’s understanding of 4:25.
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good, you say that, I say this: English Translated commenting on the Quran tends to give Lies To sanitize and decorate Islam.
Have an objection on this? I have an objection on your claim too!
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Go ahead! Who is stopping you to air YOUR VIEWS?
Just don’t say that Islam did not stop sex slavery, because I definitely know Yusuf Ali is a trustworthy person but not you!
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Fact: No other single Mufassir has ever claimed that this Verse ends the regime of sex slavery, the only one who did this is yusuf Ali...the translator..the sanitizer of islam's image...ALL the other real mufassirs who did not Care about decorating islam for the west and speak honestly of Islam's Cases never Mentioned what yusuf claims because it does not exist that islam prevented sex slavery.
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The fact is that experts in the link you gave, which you now reject too, feel that Islam stopped sex slavery. They did not link 4:25 with it, but they mentioned about freeing slaves upon pregnancy.
I can lay a bet that even if I can find another translator or expert who feels 4:25 does end slavery, you will still not accept.
Why? Because you came here to slime Islam.
Notice that this thread is to show the REAL SOURCE of sex slavery. The issue of whether sex slavery has been practised or stopped by Islam, is in the Mary of Copt thread. But you came here anyway.
Why? Because you came here to slime Islam.
According to Yusuf Ali, 4:25 is meant to free slaves.
I said this before and I will say it again. Note the hypocrisy of Muslim haters who use sex slavery to slime Islam. If they really are concerned about the women slaves, they would condemn the real preachers of sex slavery and praise Islam for the positive steps to eradicate sex slavery. So here it is one more time.
The Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery. Muslim haters DO NOTHING to oppose it.
The Quran sets up steps in stages to end sex slavery. This is evident in 4:25, as according to Yusuf Ali. Yet, Muslim haters DO ALL THEY CAN to slime Islam.
The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy found in those who hate Muslims and Islam!
So indeed, this is a hate site!
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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Mvargus
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 112
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Abdullah,
I'm going to say this only once more, and if you again ignore it I'll KNOW that you have absolutely no intention of debating this topic, but are merely another Muslim IDIOT who is more interested in bashing any other religion that looking at your own.
1) You argue that the Bible has passages that allow women to be kept as sexual slaves
2) You then argue that no one repudates these passages.
I will say this only many times in this post. YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG WITH YOUR SECOND THOUGHT!!!!
The passages that allow sexual slavery are from what is called the "Old Testament". These passages were to a point repudated and throw out when Jesus was alive. After that the New Testament did have a few writers who didn't completely condemn slavery, but the organized Christian Faiths have all had a problem with all kinds of slavery. Since then they have all produced opinions (Fatwa to muslims) that have proclaimed that ALL SLAVERY IS TO BE ABOLISHED. Since then there hasn't been a need to go into the bible and rip out the passages.
Why do you continue you attempt to beat your head with a brick wall. Anyone who has been a christian would know that those passages are condemned by just about every minister, priest, and layman as wrong.
But then again, you are a Muslim, why should you tell the truth about any religion.
The truth is that you are lying to make your arguement work.
I'll say it again. THE PASSAGES YOU KEEP WHINING ABOUT FROM THE BIBLE WERE REPUDATED BACK IN THE 1600's. Yes more than 300 years ago. That's why you are having a hard time getting anyone to agree with you. Most know that these passages were repudated, but don't remember when or who did it. (I don't even remember who, and I remember that the church never proclaimed those already in bondage free, the first offical proclaimations were merely expressions of dismay that anyone would keep another in bondage)
Realize that Europe had largely banned slavery by 1830, and in the US there were attempts to ban slavery from the birth of the country until 1865 when it was finally banned in the US. And this was simply sex slavery, but all slavery.
Why is it that people who follow the bible banned slavery on their own, but that Muslim countries only ban slavery because outside pressures force them to.
PERHAPS ABDULLAH IS LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH? |
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Mvargus
| Quote: |
1) You argue that the Bible has passages that allow women to be kept as sexual slaves
2) You then argue that no one repudates these passages.
I will say this only many times in this post. YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG WITH YOUR SECOND THOUGHT!!!!
The passages that allow sexual slavery are from what is called the "Old Testament". These passages were to a point repudated and throw out when Jesus was alive……
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On the contrary, Jesus reinforced the laws of the Old Testament. NOTHING is to be thrown a way – including laws on slavery.
Matthew 5:17 –19
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5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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So Jesus said the law must be fulfilled. And that whosoever breaks the law and teaches men so, he shall be the least in the kingdom of heaven.
Are you now teaching that the law is to be broken, when Jesus said not one bit should be broken?
The Bible propagates sex slavery. The Bible says Jesus supports that. Who are you to say that Christians have been taught to dump sex slavery?
According to Yusuf Ali, 4:25 is meant to free slaves.
I said this before and I will say it again. Note the hypocrisy of Muslim haters who use sex slavery to slime Islam. If they really are concerned about the women slaves, they would condemn the real preachers of sex slavery and praise Islam for the positive steps to eradicate sex slavery. So here it is one more time.
The Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery. Muslim haters DO NOTHING to oppose it.
The Quran sets up steps in stages to end sex slavery. This is evident in 4:25, as according to Yusuf Ali. Yet, Muslim haters DO ALL THEY CAN to slime Islam.
The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy found in those who hate Muslims and Islam!
So indeed, this is a hate site!
_________________
If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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bob
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 370
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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abdullahnoor
You are amazing. Crow tells you for the nth time that she has never been a Christian, does not know the Bible very well, considers that the Bible is full of contradictions etc etc but that she was once a Muslim and you reply:
| Quote: | Notice that you have once again, justified why you are not as vehement against the Bible as you are against the Quran!
This is in spite of the fact that it is the BIBLE that propagates sex slavery!
Is this not double standard practice and bigotry?Notice that you have once again, justified why you are not as vehement against the Bible as you are against the Quran! |
No, it is not double standard pracice or bigotry. It is quite simply your brickwall mind refusing yet again to actually read what people say. What if you find some quote from the Tibetan Book of the Dead that approves of slavery and then paste it here. Would you then call the other debaters here bigots and hypocrites for not condemning a Buddhist text? The people here condemn all forms of slavery whatever the Holy Book might be in which they occur. Yes the verses you quoted from the OT are discusting. OK. Satisfied?
However I take objection to your statement
| Quote: | | This is in spite of the fact that it is the BIBLE that propagates sex slavery! |
To prove that the Bible PROPAGATES sex slavery you will have to show us some concrete cases where Jews/Christians have used the relevant verses to justify their behaviour. If you cannot, then PROPAGATE is the wrong word and once again, as in every thread you have started, you would be guilty of building conclusions into your premises.
BTW, every society until the modern era has accepted slavery as virtually a natural state. The anti-slavery movement began among Christians such as William Wilberforce. Don't you find that an extaordinary contradiction if the Bible PROPAGATES slavery?
_________________
"Two things fill the heart with ever renewed awe the more we meditate upon them: the starry firmament above and the moral law within." Immanuel Kant |
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="abdullahnoor"]Crow
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Abdullah, how many times do I have to say this?? I've never BEEN a christian. I dont know very much about christianity. Therefore, all I can say is the bible is no more noble than the quran for it's allowence of slavery. I HAVE been a muslim, and I have read the quran. You can say I have interpreted it wrong, fine. But I am looking at it for what it says. And it most certainly does not FORBID slavery. It says the master may marry his sex slaves, but it does NOT use marriage as a replacement of concubinage. Get it through your thick head already. I DO NOT condone the bible! Please stop wasting my time by accusing me and others of doing nothing to oppose the bible when I and others are clearly stating that the bible is no more noble than the quran. Yes, duh, I know you dont think that the quran is ignoble. But as I obviously think it is, then certainly saying the bible is no more noble than it is a slam! Christianity has just as much contradictions as islam. I've never denied this and I never will.
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Notice that you have once again, justified why you are not as vehement against the Bible as you are against the Quran!
This is in spite of the fact that it is the BIBLE that propagates sex slavery!
Is this not double standard practice and bigotry?(quote)
*Covers face with hand in frustration* You just dont get it, do you? *sigh*
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And let me ask you this, abdullah. If the quran did outlawed slavery, then why is slavery still in existance in some islamic nations?
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(quote)You people keep saying you have NOTHING against Muslims but everything against Islam. Yet, all you do is condemning Islam because of what MUSLIMS DO and NOT WHAT ISLAM TEACHES.(quote)
I never said that islam teaches that it is MANDATORY to have slaves, But I HAVE READ THE QURAN and NOWHERE does it outlaw slavery! It only gives instructions as to how to treat your slaves, and on marriage and sexual relations with them. So its no wonder that slavery still exists in some countries. If the quran DID forbid slavery, then why is it still in existance? Did you not check those links I gave? And remember, what muslims do is most likely going to be influenced by the quran. yes, there are hypocrites among the muslims. But since I see no sign in the quran of the forbiddence of slavery, then I must come to the conclusion that these people are just going by the book. And abdullah, the only real proof you can give is a verse from the quran forbidding slavery.
(quote)Hey, Bigot aka Hypocrite, your words and actions dun match!(quote)
*grrrrr*
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And what about the west? The west got rid of slavery a long time ago! Who really is the propagator of slavery here?
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(quote)You speak like a true bigot and hypocrite. Selective memory. Who have been the most successful slave traders in history? Who have made the slave trade into an art? If you look at history, it is Christian Europe. Funny thing is that when America liberated itself, it did not liberate the slaves till much later.(quote)
Yeah, but slavery DOES NOT EXIST HERE TODAY. In some islamic nations, it does. And since the quran never forbade slavery alltogether, then its no wonder.
(quote)Here is something for you to read. http://www.boondocksnet.com/editions/morel/morel03.html
You are using the sex slave issue to slime Islam. You have no real concern for the women who have suffered or may still be suffering. You use the misfortune of others to leverage your own selfish agenda, that is to grind your axe.
Hypocrite! Shame on you!(quote)
*Hiss* Labeling me a hypocrite with no concearn for humanity..you dont know me, you dont know what I'm like. So you have no right to say I do not care for women being abused and mistreated. Or that I dont care for anyone. I am OUTRAGED at the way these women are treated!
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KAMIKAZE WATERMELON!
Fischerspooner is weird..but cool |
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bob
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 370
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Abd, PS
In your signature tune you repeat ad nauseam:
| Quote: | | The Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery. Muslim haters DO NOTHING to oppose it. |
Has anyone here actually condoned what the Bible says? And what do you mean by 'oppose it'. What do you mean by 'it'? The verses that mention sex slavery in the OT? Who here approves of these verses? Or do you mean sex slavery among Jews and Christians? If that is the case then the onus of proof lies with you to show that the relevant verses have been used to PROPGATE SEX SLAVERY AMONG JEWS AND CHRISTIANS.
What HAS BEEN PROVED BEYOND ANY DOUBT is that Muslims have used the Quran and hadith to justify sex slavery.
_________________
"Two things fill the heart with ever renewed awe the more we meditate upon them: the starry firmament above and the moral law within." Immanuel Kant |
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Egyptian Kafir
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
You tell me! You are the one who have been babbling as if buying slaves off the market is an important and relevant argument! The only misunderstanding I know is that you will retract any argument as an important argument, the moment you cannot uphold it, or if it works against you! This constant babbling of buying slaves off the market is just yet another example!
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You are the one who were Suddenly denying that muslims could buy any number of slaves they Wanted ,you are the one who Focused on this point not me!
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About Hafsa al Sharmut? Like I said, a thousand more words of yours CANNOT CHANGE the fact you only owned up AFTER I highlighted it. This has been your tactic. As with the harisa case, the riba case, the link you rejected, and now the latest, the “buying slaves off the market” case!
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ah, Just insisting on repeating yourself I see, oh well, I will repeat my response to you aswell:
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lol, Still trying to force lieing on that Case To cover your Failure To answer that Question? listen, Its only you who Made this "true event story" , Where did I Ever Claim this To Be a true Event while using Fictional Names that can never exist And I didnt Claim this to Be a true story Because if I did, I would Have To Show My source Because it will be the first thing you will ask me for it! I showed it as an example from the begining for that question And Since you couldnt Answer the question You Made up this stupid Story wich was never meant, To avoid replying , ,now, Stop these desperate tricks and answer: DID NOT ISLAM ENDED AND STOPPED SEX SLAVERY? PROVE FROM QURAN AND HADITH THAT THE GUY WHO HAD SEX WITH HIS SLAVE HAS MADE A SIN
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YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE! I NEVER said Yusuf Ali contradicted Ibn Kathir.
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In fact, He does, He Claims something that is totally Different Of Ibn katheer..Heck, Different From All the Well known real Mufassers..and He is a translator-commenter of the quran, speaks volumes.
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I said that since we depend on the English translation, we are working directly on Yusuf Ali’s work. As for Ibn Kathir, we are not looking at his work, but the work of ENGLISH TRANSLATORS of his work.
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both are translations, But the Major difference is: the first one Makes translated Notes itself To present it to the non arab world, The second Works For The Arab world itself without Caring of the non arab islamic opinion to santinize His work for their sake, he represents The real world.
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This of course would mean that the English Translators may miss out any of Ibn Kathir’s understanding of 4:25.
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It does not miss anything..Its the same translation of the original arabic version.. I Gave you an official Translation of ibn katheers Book that is no different of the original and its NOT a mindless word-by-word translation, its very accurate..You Say that the Translators Lied and changed in the Text While Translating?Why the hell would they Want To Hide and Miss something that is in Favour of Islam?
duhhh.
another pathetic illogical Defence By abd.
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Just don’t say that Islam did not stop sex slavery, because I definitely know Yusuf Ali is a trustworthy person but not you!
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echoing you: and I definitely know ibn katheer is a trustworthy person (according to almost ALL sunni-mainstream muslims) but not yusuf ali..
Its not ME who is putting my own tafseer of the quran here to tell me if I am trustworthy or not.
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The fact is that experts in the link you gave, which you now reject too, feel that Islam stopped sex slavery. |
The Fact that the "experts" Did not Give a single proof of this claim..Because it does not exist.
I also find it amusing how you totally ignored my argument:
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ok, To make this short:
You Claim that Islam has Made Steps To End slavery...
So Lets organize our points here without shouting and screaming and dissing each other:
This is a commentary on Issues Islam Has actually Elimenated in stages :
Drinking:
======
1- first, allowing while explaining its bad sides:
"They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit."
2- then a Prevention from praying while drunk :O ye who believe! approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say.
3-Then, TOTALLY PROHIBITING DRINKING:
:O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan's handiwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
4- Was Drinking allowed and Active in the Islamic State after muhammad's Death? NO.
Gambling:
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1- first, allowing while explaining its bad sides: "They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit."
2- Then, TOTALLY PROHIBITING GAMBLING:
:O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan's handiwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
3- Was Gambling owed and Active in the Islamic State after muhammad's Death? NO
Now, What About our issue,
seX WITH SLAVES?
==============
1- total Allowing :
who abstain from sex; Except from their wives or whom their right hands possess, for (in their case) they are free from blame. (23:5-6)
and
And those who guard their private parts (chastity).) (30. Except from their wives or their right hand possessions -- for (then) they are not blameworthy
(70:30)
2- Prevention in a certain case: ???
3- Total Prevention : ???
4- Was Slavery allowed and Active in the Islamic State after muhammad's Death? YES
Oh, Verse 4:25 You Say?? Lets see what It Says:
"those who do not have the means Wherewith to wed free believing women, They may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess.
Prevention Of Sex With Slaves? NO..Not anywhere in the verse.
An order To All muslims Marry All Slaves? Duh, NO.
An order That Abrogates Having sex with slaves and Marry them instead ? No, this verse Talks to a certain Case of muslims, and its not even an order for them, it says : they MAY
Will this Affect The Whole Sex Slavery REGIME? NO..Its will only affect the Cases of these persons .
==========
In conclusion:
==========
Did islam Set Some Rules on to treat slaves Good? YES
Is the position of slaves in islam a little better that their position in non-islamic places? YES
Are the sex Slaves' Percentage of chance to freedom a little Higher in Islam than other places? YES.
Was Sex slavery In Islam Active and Allowed in the Islamic State that applies exact islamic Sharia for 13 centuries
?YES
Did Islam end/prohibit Sex slavery? NO.
That is my point from the Begining as I stated..Did I Deny that islam Has Set Some orders To Treat slaves Good, no,did I claim that islam propagates/Arouse Sex savery? No and i stated this from the begining, But Islam Did NOT END OR STOP sex slavery..Just put some cases To ake their State Better While Still Allowing it to conitinue and Never [i]Prohibited sex slavery
[/i]
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beat it abd, you lost the grip of your argument that you avoided the whole damn post up here ^
| Quote: |
The Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery. Muslim haters DO NOTHING to oppose it.
The Quran sets up steps in stages to end sex slavery. This is evident in 4:25, as according to Yusuf Ali. Yet, Muslim haters DO ALL THEY CAN to slime Islam.
The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy found in those who hate Muslims and Islam!
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The Quran clearly Allowes Sex Slavery In two verses, 70:30 and 23:6
No single order in islam Ever prohibited sex slavery
Sex slavery Was Active In Islam for 13 Centuries
Yet Muslims Claim that Islam stopped sex slavery!
The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy and lieing found in Muslims !
_________________
“The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.” ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes |
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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Thats just how abdullah is: No matter how reasonable an argument you give, he's just going to ignore it and call you a bigot and a hypocrite
_________________
KAMIKAZE WATERMELON!
Fischerspooner is weird..but cool |
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abdullahnoor
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 990
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Egyptian Kafir
The lying and twisting continues! I brought up buying slaves in the market????? Pardon me?????? May I remind that it was YOU who suggested that, when I said that pregnancy means freedom of slaves. YOU said the master could buy any number of slaves he wanted. Which I replied that the more he bought, the more will get pregnant and the more slaves would be free. That was when you started your tirade about loading sperm fluids into vaginas of female slaves.
Now you said I BROUGHT IT UP? Well, if buying of sex slaves is NOT an important point to you in the first place, then you should not have brought it up instead of flooding them here.
More on Hafsa Al Sharmut. You are simply reminding everyone here that you only owned up AFTER I highlighted your dishonesty.
On your assertion that Yusuf Ali and Ibn Kathir contradict. Another lie from a known liar? Truth is that Yusuf Ali linked 4:25 with freeing slaves while Ibn Kathir did not. It does not mean contradiction. Contradiction occurs when Yusuf Ali says it frees slaves and Ibn Kathir says it does not. That would be contradiction. Unfortunately for you, that was not to be. Ibn Kathir’s silence does not mean that Yusuf Ali’s interpretation contradicted his.
But then of course, you would LOVE to see it that way, wouldn’t you?
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ok, To make this short:
You Claim that Islam has Made Steps To End slavery...
So Lets organize our points here without shouting and screaming and dissing each other:
This is a commentary on Issues Islam Has actually Elimenated in stages :
Drinking:
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1- first, allowing while explaining its bad sides:
"They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit."
2- then a Prevention from praying while drunk :O ye who believe! approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say.
3-Then, TOTALLY PROHIBITING DRINKING:
:O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan's handiwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
4- Was Drinking allowed and Active in the Islamic State after muhammad's Death? NO.
Gambling:
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1- first, allowing while explaining its bad sides: "They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit."
2- Then, TOTALLY PROHIBITING GAMBLING:
:O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan's handiwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
3- Was Gambling owed and Active in the Islamic State after muhammad's Death? NO
Now, What About our issue,
seX WITH SLAVES?
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1- total Allowing :
who abstain from sex; Except from their wives or whom their right hands possess, for (in their case) they are free from blame. (23:5-6)
and
And those who guard their private parts (chastity).) (30. Except from their wives or their right hand possessions -- for (then) they are not blameworthy
(70:30)
2- Prevention in a certain case: ???
3- Total Prevention : ???
4- Was Slavery allowed and Active in the Islamic State after muhammad's Death? YES
Oh, Verse 4:25 You Say?? Lets see what It Says:
"those who do not have the means Wherewith to wed free believing women, They may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess.
Prevention Of Sex With Slaves? NO..Not anywhere in the verse.
An order To All muslims Marry All Slaves? Duh, NO.
An order That Abrogates Having sex with slaves and Marry them instead ? No, this verse Talks to a certain Case of muslims, and its not even an order for them, it says : they MAY
Will this Affect The Whole Sex Slavery REGIME? NO..Its will only affect the Cases of these persons .
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In conclusion:
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Did islam Set Some Rules on to treat slaves Good? YES
Is the position of slaves in islam a little better that their position in non-islamic places? YES
Are the sex Slaves' Percentage of chance to freedom a little Higher in Islam than other places? YES.
Was Sex slavery In Islam Active and Allowed in the Islamic State that applies exact islamic Sharia for 13 centuries
?YES
Did Islam end/prohibit Sex slavery? NO.
That is my point from the Begining as I stated..Did I Deny that islam Has Set Some orders To Treat slaves Good, no,did I claim that islam propagates/Arouse Sex savery? No and i stated this from the begining, But Islam Did NOT END OR STOP sex slavery..Just put some cases To ake their State Better While Still Allowing it to conitinue and Never Prohibited sex slavery
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You have been known to use arguments when it suits you, only to retract them when it disfavours you. I have to make sure what you mean by the above argument, before I address you. So before I continue, I want to make sure what is your exact point above. Are you trying to say -
1. Because there is no explicit mention of prohibition of slavery, Islam did nothing to stop slavery?
2. If it did prohibit slavery, it would have done so in explicit terms as with gambling and drinking?
3. Hence, since NO EXPLICIT verse to prohibit means you take it as it did not prohibit?
4. Hence EXPLICIT VERSUS ARE OF IMPORTANCE TO YOU?
If yes, then say so in plain simple English. If no, then what is your point of putting up the explicit versus stopping gambling and drinking, side by side with the one on sex slavery?
I will reply that issue you put up, AFTER you tell me what is your exact point, linking versus of gambling and drinking with sex slavery.
I do not want to be put in the same position again by you. That is, you are famous for backing out when the argument you use for support, works against you.
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No single order in islam Ever prohibited sex slavery
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According to Yusuf Ali, 4:25 is meant to free slaves.
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Sex slavery Was Active In Islam for 13 Centuries
Yet Muslims Claim that Islam stopped sex slavery!
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Bigots residing in this forum say they have nothing against Muslims, but against Islam. Yet time and time again, they use what Muslims do to slander Islam and refuse to study what Islam teaches! So are they to be trusted?
If these Muslim haters have NOTHING against Muslims, then why keep quoting what Muslims do to slander Islam? Why not go straight to what Islam teaches?
Yet, these bigots still have the audacity to claim this
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The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy and lieing found in Muslims !
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So whose words and actions don’t match, indicating hypocrisy?
Note that after all the hue and cry, we still see the hypocrisy of Muslim haters not condemning the real source of slavery.
According to Yusuf Ali, 4:25 is meant to free slaves.
I said this before and I will say it again. Note the hypocrisy of Muslim haters who use sex slavery to slime Islam. If they really are concerned about the women slaves, they would condemn the real preachers of sex slavery and praise Islam for the positive steps to eradicate sex slavery. So here it is one more time.
The Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery. Muslim haters DO NOTHING to oppose it.
The Quran sets up steps in stages to end sex slavery. This is evident in 4:25, as according to Yusuf Ali. Yet, Muslim haters DO ALL THEY CAN to slime Islam.
The above is an excellent example of hypocrisy found in those who hate Muslims and Islam!
So indeed, this is a hate site!
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If you deny that the universe was designed, then by default, you are saying the universe occurred by chance.
If you say, “Your belief in Allah is unscientific!", I will say, “So is your belief in chance!” |
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veractiy_forever
Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 420
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 1:33 am Post subject: |
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Lightslave wrote:
| Quote: | | I will reply that issue you put up, AFTER you tell me what is your exact point, linking versus of gambling and drinking with sex slavery |
Still you dont know what is the exact point after EK has given you clear way of performing the analysis. Now you are running away. you are lost fully and now hedging around to make a breathing space for yourself.
Get it buddy..you made a wrong decision to get your ass in Islam. Now you must be clear of this cult and start geting your ass out of it like I did.
I appreciate veracity and tenacity of Ek who is still debating against your foolish rather childish arguments.
Yours buddy
no more slave..come lets go have a drink
VF |
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bob
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 370
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:39 am Post subject: |
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Abd is an expert at using weasel words. He keeps on saying the the Bible EXPLICITLY PROPAGATES sex slavery and yet in spite of constant questions cannot come up with ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of where the relevant verses have been used to PROPAGATE (develop, expand) sex slavery. Does he know the difference between 'relating tales of sex slavery' and 'propagating sex slavery'?
EK has summed up the situation very succinctly. The Quran explicitly forbids gambling and the consumption of alcohol. The Quran does not explicitly forbid slavery whether it is for sex or any other purpose. Result. Drinking booze and gambling have been considered sins by the umma since day one. Slavery has not.
On a historical note the slave trade practiced by Muslims also affected European countries. Barbary coast slave traders carried out numerous raids in the Mediterranean, England, France and Ireland. In the 1466 the ENTIRE population of the island of Gozo was either killed or captured and sold into slavery. The event is still a part of the folk memory of the islanders. It is their Auschwitz. In the 16th century the ICELANDIC village of Hrafnafordur was burned to the ground by Muslims slave traders, the older men and women were slaughtered and able bodied men as well as nubile women and children were taken off to Tangiers to be sold.
One English sex slave did take the fancy of a Morrocan sultan who married her. She is buried in the old city of Chellah just outside Rabat. I have visited her tomb. She was captured by slave traders and because she was beautiful 'got her freedom' by marrying into the Royal Family. Did she give her permission to be abducted in the first place?
Westerners have performed their mea culpas about the slave trade for over 150 years. When are Muslims going to cast a critical gaze over their own history? There is no hope for Islam until they start such a critical re-appraisal.
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"Two things fill the heart with ever renewed awe the more we meditate upon them: the starry firmament above and the moral law within." Immanuel Kant |
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Crow
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 1098
Location: Scarborough, Maine
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Well abdullah, there you go! If the quran does NOT FORBID slavery, then is it any wonder slavery still exists?? If the MAIN INSTRUCTION BOOK of the muslim way does not forbid something, then how the hell is it ever going to be forbidden?? 
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