 |
Faith Freedom International
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Pagan Prophet
Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1320
Location: Space within your heart
|
 Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:38 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| SkewitontheBarbie wrote: |
| Quote: | | Are you telling me that the Hindus have the right to kill? |
But who?? But where?
THats my question. WHERE WHERE is this persecution of christians. I never heard of no place in India where Christians arent allowed to celebrate easter, as opposed to the Christian Northeast, where Hindus are banned from celebrating their festivals.
|
Typical strategy of the evangelists is first to provoke a community by continuously insulting its heritage and culture and when there is a logical backlash from the community, then start acting as 'persecuted'. Christianity thrives on persecution mania. Even if there is no persecution, evangelists would invent one. It is said that 'blood of martyrs' cements Christianity. So even if there is no cause for martyrs, martyrdom has to be invented....a mythology of persecution compulsarily needs to be nurtured. Deliberately provoking a backlash and then appearing 'persecuted' is part of their strategy.
Anyone who thinks that organized Christianity is benign is a fool. The reason you see a 'civilized' Chrisitianity in the West is because it has been cut to a size by secular rebellion. Let the Church regain its lost power in West, you will again see people being burnt on stake, inquisitions being reinvoked, etc.
And all the missionaries who now try to act like 'persecuted' would be the first one to burn heretics on stake. The very nature of organized Christianity is totalitarian and intolerant of dissent. How can a religion which claim itself to be the one and only way to God and considers all other ways are false not be an intolerant , totalitarian system?
This guy Azizoon is plainly lying when he says that he is not a Christian. He is a typical evangelist out to 'save' the world.
_________________
Islam is NO way and Christ is NOT the only way. Standing for the honor of pagan cultures against the tyranny of monomaniac Judaic faiths. Cherishing the wisdom of ancient Greece, Persia , India and China.
Last edited by Pagan Prophet on Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:44 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
theazizjoon
Joined: 10 Oct 2002
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SkewitontheBarbie
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 225
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Basically that link was a lot of rhetoric against the RSS.
You need to show hard facts. THat link sure didnt.
It only says that there were 116 attacks against Christians. Who says that they were attacked because they were Christian. they could easily just be random attacks.
the first paragraph is the first part containing lies and propoganda:
| Quote: | | Attacks have generally taken place in areas where Christians are in a small minority, though even this is beginning to change as a church in the Catholic stronghold of Goa was recently hit as part of a coordinated, nation-wide bombing attack on 8 June 2000. |
This bombing attack has been proven to be the work of Deedar Anjuman, and Islamic sect with Pakistani backing.
Anyways, I dont see much resemblance between my posts and those of Muslims. I always back up with facts. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
roshan
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 1717
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| theazizjoon wrote: |
| Quote: | | They're hypocrites. If you're concerned about religions getting along then you and other chrsitian's need to have a look at your conversion practices. |
Who said that I am a Christian? You see you are so blind by your faith and your faith and you hatred that you can even think clearly. Show me one statement that tells you that I am a Christian. I started that tread trying to show that Iranians are leaving Islam to Christianity and Zoroastrianism. And give many christen church to support my statement then and anahita pointed out that there are conversion to Judaism too. This makes me a christen?
All I am saying that you have the same ways of thinking as Muslim. I am saying that we should be tolerant of other religions. You are saying that Christians are doing some horrible things. I agree with you and add that Hindus are doing some bad things too. This is not about their religion this is about power. Christians want to have more power and Hindus do not want to loose power. In my opinion they are both wrong killing each other. Are you telling me that the Hindus have the right to kill?
|
look man, i do not think you understand what were trying to say.
these missionaries go around converting people not by teaching christianity to them, but by bribery and deception. they tell lies to people about hinduism, and they take advantage of their illiteracy and fool them into converting. for example, missionaries will give medicines to the tribals, and then tell them that it is magic healing from christ, and the tribals will believe them and convert because of their illiteracy. THIS IS NOTHING MORE THAN IMMORALITY, LIES AND DECEPTION.
when hindus convert, the missionaries tell them to stop taking care of their parents and cut out ties with their family members until they convert as well. in india, missionaries are turning tribals against mainstream people after converting them. this is causing problems with national unity as now rebel groups of tribals who have become christians are trying to create their own christian nations. AND THE WORST THING IS THAT THE CHURCHES ARE SUPPLYING THE REBELS WITH MONEY AND ARMS.
in christian areas, hindus are killed if they celebrate hindu festivals. there are christian groups who threaten hindus to convert AT THE POINT OF A GUN(which was given to them by their neighborhood church).
we do not care about losing power. we do not oppose christianity because we want power. but we do not want to be shot for celebrating our own festivals in our own country. and we want to preseve our culture. and we do not want missionaries etc burning us alive like they did in goa. you do not know christianity for what it truly is. persians are ignorant about christianity because they have never seen its dark side. we hindus have experienced christianity. and because of this we know that it can be just as evil as islam is.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SkewitontheBarbie
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 225
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
PP: I agree with your thoughts on the "persecution" issue. I will say that Christian Fundamentalists are faaaar better than....Islamic Moderates. They dont bother me much. I just dont like lies being told, like that Goa bombing and the rape of the nuns.
Like I said, missionaries bother me when they forcibly convert. THe rest, that all depends on money. Once the money comes in, Missionaries are gonna be in for tough competition. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kamel
Joined: 26 Jun 2002
Posts: 282
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 2:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
123
Last edited by Kamel on Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
roshan
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 1717
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 2:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
kamel, when i read about what is happening to hindus in christian majority parts of india, the hell gets scared out of me too.
you will definitely be accepted if you moved to india. india is a peaceful and tolerant place. do you know that 1500 years ago, hindus gave refuge to christians who migrated/fled to india from syria? until today this church is still there in india and they have never been hurt because they showed respect to the locals.
the problem is that new missionaries are injecting hatred into india. when the first western christians came, the first thing they did was to start the inquisition and burn us alive. now they are converting people, and then they are convincing these people to kill hindus and are giving them guns to do the killing, and trying to create a christian nation. doesnt this sound a lot like a christian version of pakistan? this is why among hindus christianitys reputation has been spoiled.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ganesh
Joined: 23 Jul 2002
Posts: 466
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 5:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I just have a question to ask any body who thinks that conversion by bribing is ok!, lets say hypothetically we convert about 20 million poor American Christians to Hinduism or even Islam by giving them each couple of million dollars, would that be acceptable to every body?, and there wont be any problem with the Christians in this country?, and they just keep quiet?, My friends!, thats exactly is happening in India, you should know whats happening there, instead of just reading a Human rights report, in the northeast and all over India, money is pumped in from west and poor Hindus are told lies before being converted.
On the other hand there are hundreds attacks on Hindus and temples all over India, which are not reported, just visit India once and stay there enough time to know the facts, just don't be blind to the facts. Don't teach non-violence to Hindus, we know about it better than others. Human rights report are grossly anti-Hindu and pro west, they cannot survive a single day without money from the west.
_________________
They can see but are blind in following like sheep, who are they? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ganesh
Joined: 23 Jul 2002
Posts: 466
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 6:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
And I like to enlighten some facts about India to the guys who just imagine
things about another country, or read the reports printed in Indian news papers, which are heavily funded by major news organizations in the west.
In almost all rural parts of India, police are not equipped with guns, and they don't drive around in cars like they do in west, in my 20 years of stay in in a town of 10,000 people, there was not a single murder, and this town mostly consists of upper cast brahmins and about 200 muslims, with a mosque and namaz two times a day over loud speakers, which whole town can hear clearly, there are occasional fist and baton fights among the majority themselves, not a single abuse against a Muslim or a Christian, and there are 600,000 thousand villages and towns in India, most of them with majority Hindu population, What more proof is needed to show the tolerance of majority in India?.
There is increasing crime in India in big cities and towns, which do not have adequate police and also police are corrupt, there is huge population within a place that is one third of U.S, before people compare other religions and countries to India, you should live there for few years to understand the situation, just don't go by reports and news papers, thats my sincere advise for people here.
_________________
They can see but are blind in following like sheep, who are they? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kamel
Joined: 26 Jun 2002
Posts: 282
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
123
Last edited by Kamel on Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SkewitontheBarbie
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 225
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | What he told me has really moved and touched me deep down He told me that Ghandi wanted to leave all the lands that the Muslims required for them. His thoughts were that Hindus should not be attached too much to the land because life is greater than lands. His principal was that even Hindus should not be afraid to be killed by Muslims because Muslims at the end are their brothers. If this is what they want then let us (Hindus) grant them what they desire. Whether this remark is accurate or not |
Sorry Kamel this isnt accurate. You should know better than anyone else. I have 2 coptic friends who dont know each other, and they both told me the same stories ive seen u tell. as in "drive by shootings at the church by muslims" Ok so imagine if I told my 2 friends, you should go back to Egypt and dont worry if you get killed because they are your muslim brothers. Id get slapped. Well thats what Gandhi did, telling Hindus who were escaping hell (Pakistan) to go back.
| Quote: | | obssessed with protective attitudes because this is the very first start to a very traecherous road. When I said that some Hindus scare the hell out of me, I did not mean that I am terrified for myself but I meant that I am worried about Hiduism |
Hinduism will be ok. Its only natural that some Hindus are getting pissed off at whats goin on. Anyways, the reason the incidents in the NE arent reported is because the Indian media never never ever ever reports Muslim or Christian attacks on Hindus. But if one Muslim or Christian is killed all of a sudden youll see articles like "the crisis in Hinduism." FOr insance, there are 700,000 Hindu refugees from Kashmir, but only just recently, this was reported in the West, because only recently western journalists did independent research. Before they used to ask Indian journalist who would never mention Kashmiri Hindus. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arifqurashi
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 322
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Kamel wrote: |
Dear Roshan and Gansh
Finally, allow me to ask some questions about the attacks of Christians. I would like to know why these incidents are not reported in the media. Are you saying that some Christains go into temples and massacre scores of Hindu worshippers? Muslims's attacks on temples are heard clear and loud in the media, I do not hink the media is anti-Muslim. During the wars in the Balkans, the media portrayed the Serbs as the monsters which they were to some extent, but they ignored atrocities of the Muslims.
|
I find this very hard to believe, I need more proof than Hindu's telling me that Christians attack Hindus. I have never been to India, I hope to some day. I have many Hindu co-workers and none of them talk of Christians attacking Hindus. They do admit Christians are very privileged people and enjoy lots of perks in India, I'm willing to believe that, but Christians attacking, no.
I also have a very good friend who is a Christian from India and is married to a Brahmin, she tells me that Hindu treatment of Christians is poor at best. I half believe her, just because she is the most honest and good person I have come across. Please, more proof. I'd like to believe you but am not convinced.
Happy Friday you'll!!!
Arif |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pagan Prophet
Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1320
Location: Space within your heart
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| arifqurashi wrote: |
[I find this very hard to believe, I need more proof than Hindu's telling me that Christians attack Hindus. I have never been to India, I hope to some day. I have many Hindu co-workers and none of them talk of Christians attacking Hindus. They do admit Christians are very privileged people and enjoy lots of perks in
India, I'm willing to believe that, but Christians attacking, no.
Please, more proof. I'd like to believe you but am not convinced.
Happy Friday you'll!!!
Arif
|
Visit the following links:
christian rebels in tripura state kill hindu preacher:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/899422.stm
christian rebels warn hindu tribals that they will be attacked if they dont convert:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/758342.stm
BAPTIST CHURCH OF TRIPURA BACKING THE REBELS IN ORDER TO EXPAND THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/717775.stm
Have you heard of Goan Inquisition imposed by Catholic Church on Hindus?
_________________
Islam is NO way and Christ is NOT the only way. Standing for the honor of pagan cultures against the tyranny of monomaniac Judaic faiths. Cherishing the wisdom of ancient Greece, Persia , India and China. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pagan Prophet
Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1320
Location: Space within your heart
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 12:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Actually I like coining this term, "logical backlash". So you are saying that if a group of Muslims (Menj and his brethern) attacked you because you insult their heritage, it would be a logical. Heritage is there to be criticised and examined not be worshipped. |
Kamel,
You have got the stick by wrong end. You need to learn the difference between 'abuse' and 'criticism'. We do not 'insult' the heritage of Muslims. We criticize Islam and provide adequate scholarly reference. We do not 'abuse' Muhammad. We point out his criminality on basis of scriptural evidence. Atleast I have never deliberately insulted any Muslim and I am not too sure of others. So Menj's backlash on me and my likes has got no moral basis. We are not involved in any obfuscation of truth.
Now understand what 'abuse' means. If I come to USA and start going around preaching that all of American cultural heroes are devils, that all Americans are "damned" and that unless they become Hindus, all of them would go to hell. If some American challenges me to prove my contentions, I either ignore him or try to smother his voice by using propaganda tools funded by some foreign organization. Instead of challenging the intellectuals for the public debate, I work stealthily and deliberately focus on the weakest and economically the most vulnerable section of society in order to wean them away from Americanism and their natal faith using funding provided by Russians or Chinese. All of these activities would constitute 'abuse'. And the Chrisitian 'Mission' in India is involved in activities worse than this.
Some enlightened Americans might tolerate me but not every one. Sooner or later I am going to get backlash.
I remeber an American soldier beating up a Portugese soldier because the latter saluted Bin Laden on TV in horseplay. My own girlfriend, who is American and Christian, cannot tolerate me when I start talking about Noam Chomsky. And this woman may very well become my wife someday. I remember I criticized America once and she got so pissed off that she almost broke up with me.
Following is the long and short of Church's message in India:
" Jesus Christ is the 'only' son of God. People can reach 'God' only following Christ. All of the Hindu religion is nothing more than pagan barbarism. Hindus worship 'false' Gods. All Hindus are going to 'Hell' and they have no hope of 'salvation' unless they accept the supremacy of Church"
Add to this the covert support provided to secessionist groups using terrorist means. Do you really think that the above constitutes "criticism"? I do not think so. It is straightforward abuse. Where is the spirit of understanding and attempt at reasoned inter-faith dialogue ? Do Hindus come to West and tell the Christians that unless they become Hindus, they would all go to hell? Do you think that any institution which believes in such dogma can ever be conducive to the creation of a truly tolerant and pluralistic society? You would be lying to yourself if you think it can. I am not too surprised if some uneducated Hindus give extremist response to an extremist and abusive message like above.
I do not see Christian Church as a religious institution. It is a political institution desperate for its survival by any means. Since they have more or less completely lost their influence in West, they are now targetting world's most backward areas for new converts. They know that no educated society would put up with their totalitarian garbage.
Read the history of Christian Church over the last 2000 years. Its track record is worse than Islam. It is the Christian Church which burnt witches and heretics on stake. It is the Christian Church which was responsible for the biggest ever slavery movement in the history of mankind. It is the zealous crusaders who killed thousands of innocent Jews absolutely without any provocation. It is the Christian Church which proved itself to the biggest roadblock to scientific progress.
I have genuine fears of this institution coming into my country and trying to break my country. What business has Church got in funding the insurgencies in India. From our bitter past experience we see very little difference between organized Christianity and Islam. Both are monomaniac fascist doctrines.
Have you read about the Goan Inquisitons imposed on Hindus by Christian Church?
And anyone who threatens my country should be ready to face the backlash. It is inevitable. It is not abnormal. It is perfectly rational, human and understandable. Church has already declared a war on Hindus and India. We all know how Osho (Rajneesh) was hounded out of America and banned in all Christian countries in the world in mid 1980s at the behest of the Church. You need to improve your understanding of history and politics.
No American would withstand a foreign institution coming to America and threatening its integrity . The same applies to the citizens of India.
_________________
Islam is NO way and Christ is NOT the only way. Standing for the honor of pagan cultures against the tyranny of monomaniac Judaic faiths. Cherishing the wisdom of ancient Greece, Persia , India and China. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ganesh
Joined: 23 Jul 2002
Posts: 466
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I didn't think you need any detailed explanation from me after PP posted his sensible reply to you Kamel, I thought you have a good grip on most issues, but not so after all!. And arif! you may go through those links provided by PP, thanks.
_________________
They can see but are blind in following like sheep, who are they? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ganesh
Joined: 23 Jul 2002
Posts: 466
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I can't resist answering Kamel, when he said its ok to convert people by bribing, I want to ask him, would you change your name to either Mohammed or or even a Gandhi(that would be really nice) if I give you 100 bucks, from the name given by your mother?, does it make sense to you?, and start going to a Mosque ( assuming you don't know anything about Islam) if I give you more money?, thats not very grown up comment when you say its ok!, easy for you to say that isn't it Kamel?, when the perpetrator has the upper hand, all the money that is coming from the west, you know the exchange rate is for dollar into rupees? $1=50 Rupees, and that money buys lot of poor and hungry, why we are angry?, still you may not know.
more questions coming later.
_________________
They can see but are blind in following like sheep, who are they? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
roshan
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 1717
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
kamel, you are right, gandhi did say those things. and i do not admire that. i think that he was an asshole. imagine if your relatives were butchered by the muslims. your house was burned down. you lost everything, including your homeland and so you fled to india. then this old man tells you "go back to pakistan and be happy that they are killing you". what will you think? if it was me ill feel like smashing his face in.
gandhi did teach that hindus should give muslims whatever they want. now in india muslims have been given everything that they want. they have so many perks that hindus are now second class citizens in a country where they form 80% of the population.
its easy for you to say that we should not care about land. but its not just land. its the land that our heroes died to protect. its the land where all our sacred temples, monuments, mountains and rivers are. its the land where we built the worlds first university, and the earliest cities in the world. its the land where our sages wrote our sacred books. its the land that we have been worshipping and ahs been nourishing us for the past 10,000 years. saying that we should not care about india because its just land is like saying that we should not care about our mother because we can always get adopted by someone else.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kamel
Joined: 26 Jun 2002
Posts: 282
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 8:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
123
Last edited by Kamel on Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:46 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pagan Prophet
Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1320
Location: Space within your heart
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 8:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Southern Baptist Church on Hindus
A prayer book issued by the USA's largest Protestant church, asking its members to work for conversion of Hindus during Diwali, has sparked protests from Hindus and Christian leaders.
"More than 900 million people are lost in the hopeless darkness of Hinduism," reads the opening sentence of the prayer book published by the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention in late October.
"Pray that Hindus who celebrate the festival of lights would become aware of the darkness in their hearts that no lamp can dispel," it adds.
"Mumbai is a city of spiritual darkness. Eight out of every 10 people are Hindu, slaves bound by fear and tradition to false gods." |
Dear Kamel,
Do you really believe that the above quoted comments are genuine criticism and not straightforward abuse? Are you really naive enough to believe that there would not be rightful indignation among Hindus by such messages?
What if some Hindus come to USA and air similar comments about Christmas and Christianity using the most popular media? Do you really believe that there would be no backlash in USA?
Do you think that the above quoted comments are at all constructive and conducive to development of pluralistic society?
And lastly, is this the way we at FFI criticize Islam?
_________________
Islam is NO way and Christ is NOT the only way. Standing for the honor of pagan cultures against the tyranny of monomaniac Judaic faiths. Cherishing the wisdom of ancient Greece, Persia , India and China. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kamel
Joined: 26 Jun 2002
Posts: 282
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 8:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
123
Last edited by Kamel on Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
roshan
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 1717
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 9:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | I would not do that even if they skin me alive. You certainly missed my point Ganesh. Let me bring to you an example from my personal experience. In my country, Muslims take advantage of poor Christian girls. Those girls lack beauty and most certainly they become so desparate to get married as they get old. Under the strict social rules, and the destitute state of women in Islamic countries, this is particularly a nightmare for minority women, who get aggravated by poverty. A certain tactic of the Islamists is to promise them with marriage if they become Muslims. They really arrange for them marriages from Muslim men. I used to be disturbed be news like that. It was common. However, I came to realize that I am really so stupid. If all what it takes to make a person happy is money or sex, then who am I to stand in his/her way. I am not in a position to dictate what people should do unless they are causing harm to others. Some women think that getting naked in a strip club is a good way to make money. I would not do that, but I can not dictate that to others.
I know actually two couples in my work, who are Indian Christians, and although I never asked them about their background, I feel they were not bribed to be Christians since they work in a very highly demaning technical job. I will have certainly to ask them about their point of view in order to understand more. |
but kamel, these people are not really happy with the conversion! they do it out of desperation. they do it because they are sufferring, and because they are starving, because they are poor and have nowhere to live!
only a person who is destitute of any moral values would take advantage of the sufferring of others in such a way!!!!!
we arent objecting to hindus converting to another religion for money, shelter etc, were objecting to the missionaries who are capitalizing on their suffering.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kamel
Joined: 26 Jun 2002
Posts: 282
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 9:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
123
Last edited by Kamel on Sun Dec 15, 2002 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
