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Faith Freedom International
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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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 Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Scepsis wrote:
| Quote: | | they have not been "caught", they have been accused. Presumably they can claim to be acting in the public interest. They have been accused of maliciously quoting from the koran, which puts everyone involved in an awkward position. |
MrHappy wrote:
| Quote: | | You have the pastors reading excerpts from the koran, verbatim and they are accused of being intolerant. |
Assalamu Alaikum Scepsis and MrHappy,
It is not the reading of the Holy Quran by the two Christian pastors, Daniel Scot and Danny Nalliah in public that is the issue in the case at hand.
The issue is the elements of mockery and ridicule which has accompanied that reading that constitutes breach of the said Act.
On the one hand, the reading of the Holy Quran can be said to constitute public interest.
On the other hand, the mockery and ridicule of the same text can be said NOT to constitute public interest.
Imagine if I started reading verbatim someone’s Birth Certificate in public. On the surface it may appear that hardly any harm could be done by doing so. After all, people have read their own or somebody else’s Birth Certificate – a few manes, a few dates and a few names of towns and countries and that’s it.
However, if after the first name I said the words:
What sort of name this is? How could a mother choose such a ridiculous name for her child; what was the father doing – was he drunk or what? Etc. etc.
Or, if after the place of birth I said the words:
What a dumb place that is? I would not want to be seen death in that place! No wonder such people are born there! Etc. etc.
Or, if after the names of the parents I said the words:
What kind of people are these? How are they even allowed to have children? No wander we are having such problems? My taxes pay for these social experiments! Etc. etc.
These comments on a simple document such as a Birth Certificate which has accompanied it's reading in public will constitute the elements of mockery and ridicule .
I hope this can help you with understanding the difference.
Wassalam |
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marky
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 28
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 12:37 pm Post subject: Mock religion ? |
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Why can't people mock religion in the same way that people mock politics ?
After all, people are not Muslims they believe in Islam. This is the same as not being a democrat or republican (for example) but believing in the "ethos" of the political opinion.
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The Buddah say, "With your mind you make the World". |
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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Marky wrote:
| Quote: | | After all, people are not Muslims they believe in Islam. |
Assalamu Alaikum marky,
I am not very sure what you are trying to say Marky?
Wassalam |
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MrHappy
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Assalamu Alaikum StopNot
| stopnot wrote: | It is not the reading of the Holy Quran by the two Christian pastors, Daniel Scot and Danny Nalliah in public that is the issue in the case at hand.
The issue is the elements of mockery and ridicule which has accompanied that reading that constitutes breach of the said Act.
On the one hand, the reading of the Holy Quran can be said to constitute public interest.
On the other hand, the mockery and ridicule of the same text can be said NOT to constitute public interest.
I hope this can help you with understanding the difference.
Wassalam |
It's a funny thing about Muslims, their analogies never match up with the actual situation and they are usually very long  . You are not comparing apples to apples in your use of anology and it wasn't necessary.
Whether the pastors were deliberately making a mockery (and I suspect they were) of the Qu'ran in an attempt to create discord is neither here not there, to me anyway. Technically, it may well be in breach of some kind of law if it did create animosity. Difficult to prove as it how to you measure animosity ?
Don't forget the other side of the coin though, how much animosity is generated in the Mosques ? How many young, disenfranchised, male muslims come away from the mosque after a fire and brimstone sermon that tells them the West/USA and their current environment is all evil and do your duty for jihad to bring down these evil societies ?
The people that files this suit may have opened a bigger can of worms than they bargained for. Protestants have often ridiculed catholicism in sermons for their beliefs.
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Islam, religion of peace ? My arse ! |
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marky
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 28
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 11:15 am Post subject: Be not but believe |
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Mr. Happy is right. I have heard of sermons that ask for "the blood of Jews and Christians on the streets". This is incitement to hate and violence.
Also, to Stopnot, I was trying to say that religious people seem to take their religion so seriously, in the sense that you almost think that they are that religion.
It is because there is almost a "one cannot criticise religion" type attitude that religion does not seem to evolve. If peoples faith is good, honest and strong then they should be able to take the most serious "p**s taking" of their religion without being offended.
There are almost these unwritten commandments that exist:
(1) One can mock politics
(2) One can mock science
(3) One can mock people who believe in ETs
(4) One cannot mock religion
This in itself is discrimination. (I think so anyway)
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The Buddah say, "With your mind you make the World". |
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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Marky wrote:
| Quote: | There are almost these unwritten commandments that exist:
(1) One can mock politics
(2) One can mock science
(3) One can mock people who believe in ETs
(4) One cannot mock religion
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Assalamu Alaikum Marky,
I don’t know which religion you are referring to but it is a world fact that from the very emergence of Islam:
The Prophet Muhammad was mocked up;
Islam was mocked up;
The Holy Quran was mocked up;
All the first and early the Muslims were mocked up; and
Islam and Muslims are still being continually mocked up world wide until this very day !!!
These facts have also been acknowledged by the Holy Quran, all ahadith, sira, histories and stories and today’s world news industries.
I don’t know how you can dream up stuff like “one cannot mock religion” in the face of such an insurmountable amount of evidence to the contrary?
Amazing stuff !!!
Wassalam |
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MrHappy
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Assalamu Alaikum StopNot
| stopnot wrote: |
I don?t know which religion you are referring to but it is a world fact that from the very emergence of Islam:
The Prophet Muhammad was mocked up;
Islam was mocked up;
The Holy Quran was mocked up;
All the first and early the Muslims were mocked up; and
Islam and Muslims are still being continually mocked up world wide until this very day !!!
These facts have also been acknowledged by the Holy Quran, all ahadith, sira, histories and stories and today?s world news industries.
I don?t know how you can dream up stuff like ?one cannot mock religion? in the face of such an insurmountable amount of evidence to the contrary?
Amazing stuff !!!
Wassalam |
Can you provide such a situation where Islam is being riduclued just now ?
Do you think that this phenonenon of mocking is unique to Islam ? Or do you concede other religions, beliefs also get a bit of ridicule ?
I think you maybe a touch paranoid.
However, you have taken a left turn as what the discussion is about. It is about the case in Australia and whether it will harm Islam in the end.
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Islam, religion of peace ? My arse ! |
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stopnot
Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 252
Location: inside your screen
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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MrHappy wrote:
| Quote: | | Can you provide such a situation where Islam is being riduclued just now ? Do you think that this phenonenon of mocking is unique to Islam ? Or do you concede other religions, beliefs also get a bit of ridicule ? |
Assalamu Alaikum MrHappy,
Islam and Muslims are being ridiculed just now and the court case in Australia testifies to that fact. Mocking religions is not phenomenon but ridicule toward Islam is measurably higher than any other religious belief. There is a whole subject at all the levels of Islamic Studies known as Orientalism.
Cases like this will always harm Islam. If the prosecution wins then the media will boast the Muslims try to gag freedom of expression. If the defense wins then the media will have a field day in parading all forms of artistic license to ridicule the Other. This in itself could be used as a yard stick to measure such qualitative concepts.
The media has always had it’s own agenda. I am not being paranoid because rule of law must be seen to protect equally, and the media uses it as an excuse to drum up such cases, in Australia as well as elsewhere.
Wassalam |
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MrHappy
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Assalamu Alaikum StopNot.
| stopnot wrote: | | Islam and Muslims are being ridiculed just now and the court case in Australia testifies to that fact. |
This is the only case I am aware of. From my point of view, all reigions are fair game for ridicule.
| stopnot wrote: |
Mocking religions is not phenomenon but ridicule toward Islam is measurably higher than any other religious belief. There is a whole subject at all the levels of Islamic Studies known as Orientalism. |
I wonder why that is. Look, you just need to tough it out like mohammad and stop being cry babies.
| stopnot wrote: |
Cases like this will always harm Islam. If the prosecution wins then the media will boast the Muslims try to gag freedom of expression. If the defense wins then the media will have a field day in parading all forms of artistic license to ridicule the Other. This in itself could be used as a yard stick to measure such qualitative concepts. |
Perhaps the muslims who broght this case had put a bit more thought into it ? I find it somewhat ironic that muslims, albeit converts, are bringing to trial a couple of pastors who may be ridiculing Islam when Islam itself is a manifesto of intolerance and ridicule of other religions. But it is all about context I suppose.
| stopnot wrote: |
The media has always had it?s own agenda. I am not being paranoid because rule of law must be seen to protect equally, and the media uses it as an excuse to drum up such cases, in Australia as well as elsewhere.
Wassalam |
Again, you have to ask about the wisdom of bringing such a case. The laws are applicable to everybody so it will be interesting to see where this leads.
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Islam, religion of peace ? My arse ! |
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