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bread
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 Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| agentazure wrote: | | Quote: | Maybe nobody really can. So far MuhamMAD is undisputed champin of evil and perversity and grandomania. (he talked with God, he claimed he went to heaven riding b^Buraqa etc.)
In these days MuhamMAD would be locked up in an asylum for the criminally insane. |
Okay, I will agree that Muhammad was criminally insane. But, Hitler was pure evil that surpasses even Muhammad. |
Granted Hitler was a first class loony. But I wonder who inspired him in his pogroms and ethnic cleaninsg enterprises. 
The god thing is we stopped Hitler and Nziism. Now we have to stop Islam too.
Besides, Piggy asked which madman before MuhamMAD was worthier of the title of Anti-Christ.
As you know Hitler lived after MuhamMAD, so he wouldnt qualify in this ``contest``. |
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igiveup
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 169
Location: eastern us
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:44 pm Post subject: not true |
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| Quote: | BTW, the verses you have cited thus far still have not substaniated your claims that Jesus claimed to be the "son of god or god".The fact is that Jesus did not claim to be god, other people make this claim.
Looking forward to seeing the verses you say you will provide. |
| Quote: | | esus said he was, i.e. existed, not that he was the son of god, or that he was god herself. |
piggy and bread, go find ANY rabbi (orthodox, conservative, or liberal) and ask them the meaning of "I AM" in the biblical sense.
they'll all give you the same answer: it was god's exclusive name. by claiming to be "I AM" he was equating himself with god.
here's another verse were jesus claims to be god by claiming: a) he was greater than the temple (the most sacred site to the ancient and modern jews), b) he was the "lord of the sabbath" a title only god can claim:
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=MATT+12&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_39581898_1
| Quote: | | 6I tell you that one[1] greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,'[2] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." |
| Quote: | | Christians after 325 Council of Niceea came up with that creed that Jesus was divine. It was not a Christian dogma before 325 AD. |
this is not entirely true. the epistles of paul (or those attributed to him) which according to modern scholars were written BEFORE any of the "accepted" gospels, clearly state that people were worshiping jesus as a god hunderds of years before the nicean council.
| Quote: | | When Jesus was interrigated by the Sanhedrin and asked if he was God or son of god he said: ``You said that, not I``. He negated it. So why are you now twisting his words? |
i didn't twist anything he said. in fact it was his own words that did him in!
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=MARK+14&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on
| Quote: | Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[6] the Son of the Blessed One?"
62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
63The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?" |
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agentazure
Joined: 24 Mar 2002
Posts: 737
Location: Mobile, AL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Besides, Piggy asked which madman before MuhamMAD was worthier of the title of Anti-Christ.
As you know Hitler lived after MuhamMAD, so he wouldnt qualify in this ``contest``. |
Oh, well, that would certainly narrow the list of contenders. I saw that if we considered every figure in history, Muhammad still stands out as the most criminally insane, if not the most evil
_________________
"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, you should pause and reflect" Mark Twain
"Critically examine everything, hold on to the good." 1 Thessalonians 5.21 |
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bread
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Give it a rest Igiveup,
you cherry picked a nimcompoop translation and version of the Gospels.
Forget about Rabbies. Who cares. You were mentioning Christian dogma, not Judaism. And no, PAul doesnt count. You said Jesus said he was god, and he did not. Please give the references you promised Piggy. You are still to do it. |
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Mazdak
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| agentazure wrote: | | Okay, I will agree that Muhammad was criminally insane. But, Hitler was pure evil that surpasses even Muhammad. |
In a comparison chart, muhammad would come out the winner of the most evil. They both have some hard core followers. But the shit muhammad gave the world is far more. Muhammad is many levels lower than Hitler in hell. |
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Mazdak
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: not true |
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| igiveup wrote: | piggy and bread, go find ANY rabbi (orthodox, conservative, or liberal) and ask them the meaning of "I AM" in the biblical sense.
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Just for the sake of a cheering break, what do you make of the following.
"I am" is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. Could it be that "I do" is the longest sentence? |
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Mazdak
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: not true |
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| igiveup wrote: | Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[6] the Son of the Blessed One?"
62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
63The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?" |
Main Entry: Christ
Pronunciation: 'krIst
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English Crist, from Old English, from Latin Christus, from Greek Christos, literally, anointed, from chriein
Date: before 12th century
1 : MESSIAH
2 : JESUS
3 : an ideal type of humanity
4 Christian Science : the ideal truth that comes as a divine manifestation of God to destroy incarnate error
Main Entry: mes·si·ah
Pronunciation: m&-'sI-&
Function: noun
Etymology: Hebrew mAshIah & Aramaic meshIhA, literally, anointed
1 capitalized a : the expected king and deliverer of the Jews b : JESUS 1
2 : a professed or accepted leader of some hope or cause
Christ doesn't mean God at all.
| Quote: | | When Jesus was interrigated by the Sanhedrin and asked if he was God or son of god he said: ``You said that, not I``. He negated it. So why are you now twisting his words? |
They said that not him. He repeats. He believed he was son of God as much as everybody is God's child. Not God himself.
| Quote: | | 6I tell you that one[1] greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,'[2] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." |
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Chingachgook
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 261
Location: White Eagle Land
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Mazdak wrote: | .... Jesus was making friends with thieves and prostitutes and encouraging them to be rightous, muhammad was just stonning them to death or cutting their limbs off. Yet himself was plundering and was sleeping with many women.
Even if Jesus had nothing to do with God, he was rightous and moral.
Muhammad was a straight forward lying war lord full of hate for people. |
I won't be able to summarize "Jesus" any better! He forgive and forget and draws sinners to Himself through his signature, "LOVE" He is indeed a good role model along with Buddha, Confuscious and even Mahatma Ghandi! I just wonder why the Quran deny such beautiful timeless piece of philosophy!
/////  \\\\\ |
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igiveup
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 169
Location: eastern us
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:52 am Post subject: relevant. |
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| Quote: | Give it a rest Igiveup,
you cherry picked a nimcompoop translation and version of the Gospels. |
i purposely gave the link to my source so you can check it out yourself. at the site there are no less than 16 different tranlsations of the christian bible in english (not to mention the greek, czech, chinese, arabic, korean, etc.. translations that are available at the site). if you're not happy with the version i chose there 15 others for you to look through (there is even a LITERAL translation available at that site):
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible
| Quote: | | Forget about Rabbies. Who cares. You were mentioning Christian dogma, not Judaism. |
the rabbis are important because they can prove to you the importance of the "I AM" found in the tanak and how jesus attempted to claim divinity by stating he was the "I AM" of the tanak.
| Quote: | | And no, PAul doesnt count. You said Jesus said he was god, and he did not. |
yes paul does count because you said earlier that jesus never claimed divinity and that the council of nicea put those words into his mouth. paul and his epistles (and the community he ministered to) prove that at least some pre-nicean christians worshiped jesus as god (according to his own words).
| Quote: | | Please give the references you promised Piggy. You are still to do it. |
i gave the most important reference but both you and piggy ignored it. here it is again (although like i said jesus claimed to be god many times and it was that blasphemy that killed him):
(this is from Young's LITERAL Translation)
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=EXOD+3&language=english&version=YLT&showfn=on&showxref=on
| Quote: | 13 And Moses saith unto God, `Lo, I am coming unto the sons of Israel, and have said to them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you, and they have said to me, What [is] His name? what do I say unto them?'
14 And God saith unto Moses, `I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, `Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.' |
then jesus ripped this off and claimed to be god:
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+8&language=english&version=YLT&showfn=on&showxref=on
| Quote: | 56 Abraham, your father, was glad that he might see my day; and he saw, and did rejoice.'
57 The Jews, therefore, said unto him, `Thou art not yet fifty years old, and Abraham hast thou seen?'
58 Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming -- I am;'
59 they took up, therefore, stones that they may cast at him, but Jesus hid himself, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. |
the jews present understood what jesus was trying to pull here and attempted to stone him because according to the law jesus had blasphemed god's name:
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LEV+24&language=english&version=YLT&showfn=on&showxref=on
| Quote: | | 16 and he who is execrating the name of Jehovah is certainly put to death; all the company do certainly cast stones at him; as a sojourner so a native, in his execrating the Name, is put to death. |
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bread
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:06 am Post subject: |
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I specifically askedyou to give an example where Jesus said he is God. All you have is a few sentences where Jesus says nothing of the sort. If you choose to see things which arent there, fine. But that is not my problem, nor Piggyis.
| Quote: | Quote:
And no, PAul doesnt count. You said Jesus said he was god, and he did not.
yes paul does count because you said earlier that jesus never claimed divinity and that the council of nicea put those words into his mouth. paul and his epistles (and the community he ministered to) prove that at least some pre-nicean christians worshiped jesus as god (according to his own words). |
Once again, you are having problems with understanding my question (and Piggies). We both asked you where Jesus claimed he was God. You bring it PAul`s lies. Whoc cares. Jesus didnt say than himself, get it? Paul doesnt count, you dont count I done count, Pigy doest cound, 2 billion Christians and 16 million Jews dont count. If Jesus didnt say that himslef, the whole 6.3 billion hmans dont count. Now or ever.
| Quote: | Quote:
13 And Moses saith unto God, `Lo, I am coming unto the sons of Israel, and have said to them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you, and they have said to me, What [is] His name? what do I say unto them?'
14 And God saith unto Moses, `I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, `Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.' |
Hey Moses also said I AM. Do you suppose Moses also claimed to be a God? If not why do you say Jesus did.
| Quote: | Quote:
56 Abraham, your father, was glad that he might see my day; and he saw, and did rejoice.'
57 The Jews, therefore, said unto him, `Thou art not yet fifty years old, and Abraham hast thou seen?'
58 Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming -- I am;'
59 they took up, therefore, stones that they may cast at him, but Jesus hid himself, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. |
Irrelevant. All Jews say they were present on Mount Sinas when the Covenant was made with God. We know they were not there in person though. You have a problem with comprehendind figures of speeach and methafors. I already told that I AM from before this Earth was formed, and so were you. Look up the explanation I gave you in the last page.
| Quote: | | the jews present understood what jesus was trying to pull here and attempted to stone him because according to the law jesus had blasphemed god's name |
You know what, this all belongs in thew Chritianity folder. May I say that your knowledge of History of ancient Judaea is very minute. Jesus was not the one presented to us in those fables books called the Bible.
PM if you want to learn real history and not Roman propaganda. If on the other hand you prefer your ignorance, then this discussion is pointless. |
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Piggy
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 835
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: relevant. |
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| igiveup wrote: | | how jesus attempted to claim divinity by stating he was the "I AM" of the tanak. |
Now you say "attempted to claim divinity".
But you said emphatically that he DID claim to be GOD.
You STILL have not substantiated your claim, you have only shown how YOU interpret what others, not Jesus, claimed to be their understanding of what Jesus was reported to have said.
Have a good long think about:
"I AM, THE TRUTH, THE WAY, THE LIFE/LIGHT. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXEPT THROUGH ME"
"I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE"
You have probably been led to believe that Jesus is saying that he is god.
What do YOU think this means? |
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Unknown 355
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: relevant. |
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Piggy, I am copying and pasting my response to from another thread where this subject was touched on.
| Piggy wrote: | | Can you show the report(s) where Jesus claimed to be god? |
Piggy, I will do my best:
In Matthew 14:22-33 Jesus says 'Fear not I AM'. Which is identical to John 8:58:
John 8
58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!"
In Exodus 3:14 God revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush:
Exodus 3
14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
As you can see, Jesus takes on the divine name of "I AM".
Jesus said he was the "son of man":
Matthew 12
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
When Jesus declares that he is the "Son of Man" it is an allusion to Daniel 7:13-14:
Daniel 7
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
So the "Son of Man"
- approaches God himself
- Is given authority and dominion
- Worshipped as God
In Luke 7:20-23 & Matthew 11:2-5 Jesus is approached by disciples of John the Baptist:
Matthew 11
2 When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples
3 to ask him, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?"
4 Jesus replied, "Go back and report to John what you hear and see:
5 The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.
This is a direct allusion to Isaiah 35 & 61:
3 Strengthen the feeble hands, steady the knees that give way;
4 say to those with fearful hearts, "Be strong, do not fear;
your God will come, he will come with vengeance; with divine retribution he will come to save you."
5 Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
6 Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy. Water will gush forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert.
Isaiah 61
1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,
So when Jesus spoke this he was saying that the prophecy of God himself coming when "the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped" was being fulfilled through him--thus he is God and the Messiah.
I hope this helps.
Scott |
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Piggy
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 835
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Scott,
Thanks, but I am seeking clear evidence that jesus claimed to be "god".
Here is my question:
You STILL have not substantiated your claim, you have only shown how YOU interpret what others, not Jesus, claimed to be their understanding of what Jesus was reported to have said.
Have a good long think about:
"I AM, THE TRUTH, THE WAY, THE LIFE/LIGHT. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXEPT THROUGH ME"
"I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE"
You have probably been led to believe that Jesus is saying that he is god.
What do YOU think this means?
I think Jesus was NOT saying that he was "god", and I would like to hear what others might have to say about the above reported sayings of Jesus.
I have made it clear that I think Jesus was misunderstood and misinterpreted, and was not actually saying he was "god".
Any thoughts or ideas as to what he might have meant when he said these things, IF he was NOT saying he was "god"?
regards.
Piggy. |
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Unknown 355
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Piggy wrote: | Hi Scott,
Thanks, but I am seeking clear evidence that jesus claimed to be "god".
Here is my question:
You STILL have not substantiated your claim, you have only shown how YOU interpret what others, not Jesus, claimed to be their understanding of what Jesus was reported to have said.
Have a good long think about:
"I AM, THE TRUTH, THE WAY, THE LIFE/LIGHT. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXEPT THROUGH ME"
"I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE"
You have probably been led to believe that Jesus is saying that he is god.
What do YOU think this means?
I think Jesus was NOT saying that he was "god", and I would like to hear what others might have to say about the above reported sayings of Jesus.
I have made it clear that I think Jesus was misunderstood and misinterpreted, and was not actually saying he was "god".
Any thoughts or ideas as to what he might have meant when he said these things, IF he was NOT saying he was "god"?
regards.
Piggy. |
So now you are pitting your interpretation against mine? I'd love to know your credentials on this issue besides "ultra-skeptic".
You did not touch on some of the evidence I brought:
1) Biblical prophecy about the Messiah says that "God" will come.
2) The Son of Man is defined as God is, and Jesus said that he was the Son of Man.
Jesus obviously knew the scriptures and knew exactly what he was saying would be taken as. My interpretation is the most logical and biblical explanation. I could interpret your post as conveying a message that you believe that Jesus was God, but that is not the most logical interpretation of your post.
If Jesus was not claiming to be God, he was not the 'wise teacher' known as Jesus but a deranged lunatic with magical fingers.
- Scott |
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