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igiveup
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 169
Location: eastern us
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 Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:33 pm Post subject: yes he did :-) |
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dear bread:
| Quote: | | Jesus did not call himself God inthat quotaton. |
yes he did that's why they wanted to stone him. in the tanak there is no law that says you can't insult prophets (abraham, david, moses, elijah, etc..) but there is a law against slandering god's name and claiming to be god and the penalty is stoning:
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LEV+24:16&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on
| Quote: | | 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death. |
| Quote: | | Also the stroy of his face getting imprinted into a towel (probably you are referring to the Shroud of Tourin which is not a Biblical writing but a later Catholic legend) is not in the Bible. |
whoops, you're right. my bad. |
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Piggy
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 835
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: that's why i provided a link... |
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| igiveup wrote: | so you could see for yourself. if you read till the end of the chapter, right after jesus equated himself with "i am" the jews who were listening to his message did the following:
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=JOHN+8&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on
| Quote: | | 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. |
they understood that when he called himself "i am" he was equating himself with god which is a no-no according to the Law |
Still doesn't say he called himself god!
It really says that this is what the "jew" understood it to mean.
What do YOU take it to mean?
Have you considered the possibilities, or you would prefer to believe what some ancient jews were reported to have said?
Maybe these "jews" wanted people to believe that this is what it meant, knowing that it did not?
They wanted him out of the way and were looking for anything that enhance their agenda. |
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Mazdak
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Jesus said we all are children of God, including himself.
Later on he got mad at those who called him god and said you must worship God, not me.
Muhammad is the anti-Christ and he broke all 10 commandments. |
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Chingachgook
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 261
Location: White Eagle Land
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Very funny this Mr. Igiveup!
Okay! So YOU believe Jesus is God? Then why the hell must this "god" go back to heaven somewhere and then send his angel to talk to your prophet to undo His beautiful timeless teachings which He personally imparted in person while still on earth and a much inferior teaching at that too?
You are blaspheming Allah here! 
/////  \\\\\ |
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igiveup
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 169
Location: eastern us
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:31 pm Post subject: you don't understand |
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| Quote: | Jesus said we all are children of God, including himself.
Later on he got mad at those who called him god and said you must worship God, not me. |
for every verse like this in the gospels there are 5 others with him proclaiming his "divinity".
| Quote: | | Muhammad is the anti-Christ and he broke all 10 commandments. |
the idea of "anti-christ" or "false prophet" is much older than the christian book of revelation. in fact john of patmos' prototype for his story was the tanak book of daniel. it clearly states that the anti-christ/false prophet/false messiah will declare himself god and ignore/abolish the Law of Moses (the Law is a lot more than the 10 commandments). mazdak you don't seem to have a christian background. do yourself a favor and find an online christian bible and compare moses and jesus views on the Law. they couldn't be more different. then find an online koran and compare moses and muhammeds views on the Law. with very few exceptions they agree almost totally.
| Quote: | Very funny this Mr. Igiveup!
Okay! So YOU believe Jesus is God? Then why the hell must this "god" go back to heaven somewhere and then send his angel to talk to your prophet to undo His beautiful timeless teachings which He personally imparted in person while still on earth and a much inferior teaching at that too?
You are blaspheming Allah here!
///// \\\\\ |
my dear chingachgook, i'm not a muslim. i could care less if allah is upset. i was just trying to prove a point. |
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Mazdak
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: you don't understand |
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| igiveup wrote: | | the idea of "anti-christ" or "false prophet" is much older than the christian book of revelation. in fact john of patmos' prototype for his story was the tanak book of daniel. it clearly states that the anti-christ/false prophet/false messiah will declare himself god and ignore/abolish the Law of Moses (the Law is a lot more than the 10 commandments). mazdak you don't seem to have a christian background. do yourself a favor and find an online christian bible and compare moses and jesus views on the Law. they couldn't be more different. then find an online koran and compare moses and muhammeds views on the Law. with very few exceptions they agree almost totally |
Please go back to my first post, I have clearly explained the reversal of all 10 commandments by muhammad, if you could add Jesus to the comparison, I'm curious to see it.
You don't have a good understanding of Christianity, a lot of people called Jesus son of God and still do, some fanatics and anti-christians call him God to discredit him. But the original answer given by Jesus himself stands, we are all children of God.
After all I'm not fanatic about any of those books, but I sure have enough reasonng powers to confirm or deny a moral value.
Muhammad was evil by all means, and his followers are deceived. |
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agentazure
Joined: 24 Mar 2002
Posts: 737
Location: Mobile, AL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | the idea of "anti-christ" or "false prophet" is much older than the christian book of revelation. in fact john of patmos' prototype for his story was the tanak book of daniel. it clearly states that the anti-christ/false prophet/false messiah will declare himself god and ignore/abolish the Law of Moses (the Law is a lot more than the 10 commandments). mazdak you don't seem to have a christian background. do yourself a favor and find an online christian bible and compare moses and jesus views on the Law. they couldn't be more different. then find an online koran and compare moses and muhammeds views on the Law. with very few exceptions they agree almost totally.
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Sorry, you're totally off-base, igiveup.
First:
Muslims consider Jesus a prophet on the same level as Moses. Christians do NOT think of Jesus as a prophet, but as God reincarnate and they see Jesus as on a totally different level and much higher (obviously) as the prophets of old.
Second:
The definition of anti-Christ is NOT "false prophet" and the "false prophet" mentioned in the daniels is not refering to the actual anti-Christ but anyone who claims to be a prophet. The definition of anti-Christ is one who opposes Christ and denies that he is Christ.
Here's more on the subject:
http://www.godskingdomministries.org/FFI/2002/October.htm
| Quote: | “Antichrist” is a word used only by one biblical writer. John writes of antichrist five times in two of his epistles. One of these times he writes it as a plural, “antichrists” and another times he refers to “the spirit of antichrist.” John seems to speak of antichrist as an end-time individual, but also as a group of people (“antichrists”) who have “the spirit of antichrist.” But since John himself defines the term for us, let us read 1 John 2:18-23,
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_________________
"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, you should pause and reflect" Mark Twain
"Critically examine everything, hold on to the good." 1 Thessalonians 5.21
Last edited by agentazure on Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Piggy
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 835
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: you don't understand |
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| igiveup wrote: | | for every verse like this in the gospels there are 5 others with him proclaiming his "divinity". |
Let us see them then and we can examine and discuss them.
Do you consider it is possible that what Jesus said might have been misunderstood and misinterpreted?
You haven't substantiated your claims so far! |
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Piggy
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 835
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: you don't understand |
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There is this:
| igiveup wrote: | | my dear chingachgook, i'm not a muslim. i could care less if allah is upset. i was just trying to prove a point. |
Then there is this in igiveup's signature:
(see the signature at bottom of posts by "igiveup")
| igiveup wrote: |
"...I am in service to Islam and Muhammad is my Prophet , If the whole world leave Islam , I am here to protect and to Cherish Islam !!! Love Islam and Muhammad , Iam in Love with Allah , Allah is my Lover !!! Allauakbar"-Trulit;forum member |
Are using two nicks, and forgot to remove reference to "trulit" from the signature when you registered as "igiveup"?
or
Did you "borrow" trulit's signature and forget to remove the "trulit" bit at the end of the signature?
or
Regarding the conlict between your claim to not be a muslim and your signature:
Did you forget that your signature would appear in the same post where you deny being muslim? |
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igiveup
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 169
Location: eastern us
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:33 pm Post subject: again |
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| Quote: | et us see them then and we can examine and discuss them.
Do you consider it is possible that what Jesus said might have been misunderstood and misinterpreted?
You haven't substantiated your claims so far! |
are you serious piggy? claiming to be the "I am" which first century jews understood to be god's exclusive name and insulting it was punishable by stoning (and i provided the verses) is a misunderstanding? i will provide more bible verses in due time where jesus claims to be god.
| Quote: | Please go back to my first post, I have clearly explained the reversal of all 10 commandments by muhammad, if you could add Jesus to the comparison, I'm curious to see it.
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breaking the 10 commandments doesn't make one an anti-christ or false prophet! countless thousands (millions?) of people have been ignoring those rules for centuries. what makes muhammed more of an "anti-christ" or "false prophet" then them?
| Quote: | | You don't have a good understanding of Christianity, a lot of people called Jesus son of God and still do, some fanatics and anti-christians call him God to discredit him. But the original answer given by Jesus himself stands, we are all children of God. |
then he himself must have been a fanatic because he claimed divinity numerous times!
| Quote: | After all I'm not fanatic about any of those books, but I sure have enough reasonng powers to confirm or deny a moral value.
Muhammad was evil by all means, and his followers are deceived. |
muhammed was no more good or evil than moses, jesus, zoroaster, alexander the great, julius caesar, or genghis khan. muhammed was a combination of religious founder (like jesus, moses, zoroaster) and military leader/general (like alexander, caesar, and khan) so of course there are gonna be "ugly" periods in his life story.
| Quote: | First:
Muslims and Jews consider Jesus a prophet on the same level as Moses. Christians do NOT think of Jesus as a prophet, but as God reincarnate and they see Jesus as on a totally different level and much higher (obviously) as the prophets of old. |
first, NO self respecting jew would consider jesus a prophet on the same level as moses (especially when jesus contradicted the Law). one need only look at the talmud to see what early jews thought of jesus. modern jews are indifferent to jesus one way or another.
did you ever read the koran? the koranic jesus is a muslim! the koranic jesus never claims divinity, upholds the law of moses, and predicts the coming of muhammed. that's the jesus muslims consider a prophet, not the one pictured in the new testament (which muslims consider corrupted).
| Quote: | Second:
The definition of anti-Christ is NOT "false prophet" |
you're right. i got ahead of myself here.
| Quote: | | and the "false prophet" mentioned in the daniels is not refering to the actual anti-Christ but anyone who claims to be a prophet. |
like jesus: claimed to the prophet predicted by moses, the messiah, god and the son of god. |
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igiveup
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 169
Location: eastern us
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:39 pm Post subject: are you serious???? |
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| Quote: | Are using two nicks, and forgot to remove reference to "trulit" from the signature when you registered as "igiveup"?
or
Did you "borrow" trulit's signature and forget to remove the "trulit" bit at the end of the signature?
or
Regarding the conlict between your claim to not be a muslim and your signature:
Did you forget that your signature would appear in the same post where you deny being muslim? |
have you lost your mind? it's a gag sig! what muslim in his right mind would call himself allah's lover and claim to be "in love" with allah? jeez calm down 
and trulit was a forum member. i quoted him in my sig for laughs. |
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agentazure
Joined: 24 Mar 2002
Posts: 737
Location: Mobile, AL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Quote:
First:
Muslims and Jews consider Jesus a prophet on the same level as Moses. Christians do NOT think of Jesus as a prophet, but as God reincarnate and they see Jesus as on a totally different level and much higher (obviously) as the prophets of old.
first, NO self respecting jew would consider jesus a prophet on the same level as moses (especially when jesus contradicted the Law). one need only look at the talmud to see what early jews thought of jesus. modern jews are indifferent to jesus one way or another.
did you ever read the koran? the koranic jesus is a muslim! the koranic jesus never claims divinity, upholds the law of moses, and predicts the coming of muhammed. that's the jesus muslims consider a prophet, not the one pictured in the new testament (which muslims consider corrupted).
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You're right that Jews do not conside Jesus a prophet, but still, you're totally wrong about Jesus being the anti-Christ. That's just nuts.
_________________
"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, you should pause and reflect" Mark Twain
"Critically examine everything, hold on to the good." 1 Thessalonians 5.21 |
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Piggy
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 835
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: again |
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| igiveup wrote: | | are you serious piggy? claiming to be the "I am" which first century jews understood to be god's exclusive name and insulting it was punishable by stoning (and i provided the verses) is a misunderstanding? i will provide more bible verses in due time where jesus claims to be god. |
Maybe it's what first century jews understood, but as I inderstand it does not necessarily mean this is what Jesus meant by saying "I AM".
Consider that Jesus was re-defining the meaning of "I AM".
Unlike mohammed, Jesus was not inventing or proposing a religion should be established in his name or be established based on his teachings.
BTW, the verses you have cited thus far still have not substaniated your claims that Jesus claimed to be the "son of god or god".
The fact is that Jesus did not claim to be god, other people make this claim.
Looking forward to seeing the verses you say you will provide. |
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agentazure
Joined: 24 Mar 2002
Posts: 737
Location: Mobile, AL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Here's an interesting site that has information about why jesus was rejected by the jews. The articles are easy to read and is subtantiated by verses from the bible.
http://www.hebrew-streams.org/
http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/ntstudies/reject.html
_________________
"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, you should pause and reflect" Mark Twain
"Critically examine everything, hold on to the good." 1 Thessalonians 5.21 |
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Mazdak
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: again |
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| igiveup wrote: | | breaking the 10 commandments doesn't make one an anti-christ or false prophet! countless thousands (millions?) of people have been ignoring those rules for centuries. what makes muhammed more of an "anti-christ" or "false prophet" then them? |
True, the difference is muhammad claimed to be a prophet. And he tried to globalize his ideas.
The topic says and proves that muhammad reversed all 10 commandments.
If you'd like to add Jesus to the comparison plaese give examples where he said things against the 10 commandments.
Jesus was making friends with thieves and prostitutes and encouraging them to be rightous, muhammad was just stonning them to death or cutting their limbs off. Yet himself was plundering and was sleeping with many women.
Even if Jesus had nothing to do with God, he was rightous and moral.
Muhammad was a straight forward lying war lord full of hate for people. |
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Piggy
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 835
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: are you serious???? |
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| igiveup wrote: | | Quote: | Are using two nicks, and forgot to remove reference to "trulit" from the signature when you registered as "igiveup"?
or
Did you "borrow" trulit's signature and forget to remove the "trulit" bit at the end of the signature?
or
Regarding the conlict between your claim to not be a muslim and your signature:
Did you forget that your signature would appear in the same post where you deny being muslim? |
have you lost your mind? it's a gag sig! what muslim in his right mind would call himself allah's lover and claim to be "in love" with allah? jeez calm down
and trulit was a forum member. i quoted him in my sig for laughs. |
What muslim IS in his right mind?
I am extremely calm. |
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bread
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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I AM from before the Jewish Temple too. The elements heavier than Iron constituting my body have been produced by a supernova billions of years ago.
Jesus said he was, i.e. existed, not that he was the son of god, or that he was god herself.
Christians after 325 Council of Niceea came up with that creed that Jesus was divine. It was not a Christian dogma before 325 AD.
When Jesus was interrigated by the Sanhedrin and asked if he was God or son of god he said: ``You said that, not I``. He negated it. So why are you now twisting his words? |
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Piggy
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 835
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: again |
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| igiveup wrote: | | muhammed was no more good or evil than moses, jesus, zoroaster, alexander the great, julius caesar, or genghis khan. muhammed was a combination of religious founder (like jesus, moses, zoroaster) and military leader/general (like alexander, caesar, and khan) so of course there are gonna be "ugly" periods in his life story. |
Absolute rubbish!
Would you like to do a comparison chart for mohammed Vs Jesus, and we wil see that what you say here IS rubbish?
Let's start with these as attributes:
(tick under name, next to attribute for affirmation)
---------------------------------Mohammed-------------------------------Jesus
War monger.
Robber and thief.
Rapist.
Murderer.
Raider.
Slaver.
Torturer.
Terrorist.
Deceiver.
Liar.
Empire builder.
Paedophile.
Deliberatelty formed a religion.
Plunderer and looter.
Cruel.
Merciless.
Sinner.
Discriminates against women.
Etc, etc, etc.
And YOU said:
"muhammed was no more good or evil than jesus"
What a laugh, you delude yourself.
Show your evidence that Jesus might be considered to be "evil' in any way.
Mohammed and Jesus, chalk and cheese.
Tell me can you name the other people before mohammed who you might consider to be anti-christ? (not anti-christian, but clearly anti-christ) |
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bread
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Does Attile the Hun count? 
On second thought, Attila was fluent in Hunnic, German and Latin languages (he wrote in LAtin too, having studied in the best Roman academies). He also did not consider himself a prophet, nor started a religion.
Also in Attilas defense he was not a paedophile either. He also di not force people to embrace his Hunic religion, nor to speak in Hunic language.
So I guess Attila comes close to your comparition list, but even he fails short of MuhamMAD.
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agentazure
Joined: 24 Mar 2002
Posts: 737
Location: Mobile, AL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Vlad the impaler should make it on the list.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8013&highlight=
_________________
"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, you should pause and reflect" Mark Twain
"Critically examine everything, hold on to the good." 1 Thessalonians 5.21 |
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bread
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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Please, Vlad was a patriot defending his country against Muslim invaders. Dont listen to Hollywood legends.
Vald was not a paedophile, nor did he start a new religion, he had only one wife and no slave girls and concubines by the dozen, he didnt attack other countries, nor forced his language, customs and religion on other peoples. Also Vlad didnt claim he was a prophet.
Sorry, but Vlad doesnt make the MuhamMAD cut either.
Maybe nobody really can. So far MuhamMAD is undisputed champin of evil and perversity and grandomania. (he talked with God, he claimed he went to heaven riding b^Buraqa etc.)
In these days MuhamMAD would be locked up in an asylum for the criminally insane.  |
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agentazure
Joined: 24 Mar 2002
Posts: 737
Location: Mobile, AL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Maybe nobody really can. So far MuhamMAD is undisputed champin of evil and perversity and grandomania. (he talked with God, he claimed he went to heaven riding b^Buraqa etc.)
In these days MuhamMAD would be locked up in an asylum for the criminally insane. |
Okay, I will agree that Muhammad was criminally insane. But, Hitler was pure evil that surpasses even Muhammad.
Then again, Hitler makes a great anti-Christ, but Muhammad still fits the pattern a lot better. Muhammad seems to have totally opposed everything Jesus said.
_________________
"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, you should pause and reflect" Mark Twain
"Critically examine everything, hold on to the good." 1 Thessalonians 5.21 |
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