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Unknown 387
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 12
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 Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:21 am Post subject: |
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I couldn't get you off my mind. You put a human face/feeling on something I used to hate. Forgive me, but I didn't realize how proud and predjudiced I was towards fundamentalist muslims when I was a fundamentalist myself. We fear and hate what we don't know or understand. But people are just people, with pasts, dreams, hopes, jobs, families, like everyone else all over the world. I'm so thankful you keep posting.
I, too, struggled with a fear of hell when I doubted my faith in the Bible. The doctrine of hell was one of the first reasons I started walking away. I have been taught my whole life that God is loving, good, kind, gentle, merciful and loves us as his own children. I have 3 children. I correct and discipline them because a good parent gives boundaries...but I do not want them to fear me. I would never torture them for asking questions! If I act in an immoral way such as hurting others for disagreeing with me they will either grow up to do the same or they will rebel. I would rather they rebel against that kind of immorality. As one in authority, as their guide through this life into adulthood I need to set the proper example. If I hate, they will hate. It was euphoria for me to realize THERE WAS NO HELL! Not for anyone. What kind of logic is it for someone to push you in a river and then rescue you? God makes the world, the inhabitants, the devil to deceive some, they are tempted by his own design and then he's the only rescue? Gee, thanks.
Check out infidels.org, they have some awesome debates from all kinds of people. Also, have you read any of Carl Sagan's work? Such as "Cosmos" or his fiction book "Contact"? I'm no scientist but intelligent design or not life became amazing and I appreciate it more now that I'm not thinking so much about eternity. "Contact" deals with some interesting religious issues you might find thought provoking.
My Mom said something interesting about the after life. You can take it or leave it, but it was a comfort to me. We, humans, are energy beings, energy doesn't get destroyed, it simply changes. I have no knowledge of my state before I was born, I have to guess I will have no knowledge of my state after death. But I do know I have this life. Today I can live for nobler things like loving others and cultivating peace. I did that when I met you. |
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Bride of God
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:22 am Post subject: |
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I just pray his future wife doesn't become an apostate!
Sorry, I only read the first post in this thread, maybe he's calmed down now. |
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Ampbreia
Joined: 10 Oct 2002
Posts: 476
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sorry, I only read the first post in this thread, maybe he's calmed down now. |
He's calmed down. Read the rest of this thread; he's undergone a magnificent metamorphosis. It's almost like he's become another person entirely.
_________________
It takes a heavy set of horns to support a good halo! |
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Bride of God
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Congratulations ahboo4, your future wife will be very lucky to have you, I'm sure.  |
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Bride of God
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| (duplicate) |
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Unknown 354
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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hey.
i am still here,only i don;t visit as frequently and don't post as much.
i realized that T,was something i had left from days past,but wasn't willing to let go at the time.at that time,i had lost many things and found it difficult to lose yet another dear one.
but now it's no longer difficult,and i feel free leaving and walking away,but i won't do it.my particular peculiar situation is living in a muslim country,so i have to find a way to adapt,i began follwing "the first islam" (as oppsed to the second islam), this sect relies on the quran more than on anything else,and doesn't kill apostates,nor sanction circumcision,it seems that even the veil is unnecessary.the beared is done away with,a kind of critical study of the customs of ilsam,of course they still believe in god,but that's not much of a problem,or is it?
i agree totally with them,with all the view,except fot the god thing,but i won't tell anyone,a little doulethink goes a long way for a happy life,i think i got it all figured out,and i no longer feel ashamed of my atheism,nor ashamed of proposing to T,i have a way to live with my society,and i can fight anyone who is tight-minded and follows islam literlaly,and they won't dare say a thing,i am a muslim too,right?
change can come from the inside as well as from the outside,
i can say i am finally at peace with the world. |
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Unknown 354
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| thanks deeply for the www.infidels.org link,i found a wealth of richard dawkins articles and interview,after all,he made me an atheist.his views on death are especially interesting. |
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Bride of God
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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I can imagine how difficult it would be to be a non-Muslim in a Muslim country.
Good luck to you in whatever you do both now and in the future...spiritual journeys usually last a lifetime. |
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Unknown 354
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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one last thing,a kind person sent me an e-mail.he's another apostate who lives in a muslim country,i couldn't reply to him.
i use my real name in the e-mail address,not the ahboo4 one,and if i reply,then my name and country will be disclosed(it's like MR.khalid@singapore.com, except that,of course i'm not a khalid who lives in singapore).
it is too much of a risk,sorry.you undersatnd,that's why i couldn't send anything yet to Abu Lahab,not reply to Crow.
i read the letters that come to me,but until i find a way around this,i can't reply to any one.it's not that i don't trust you,but i can't afford to take any chances,not with my real name and location.
thanks crow and shaleem for the letters,and yes,i'm handling it like a man,i have handled it like a man,to be more exact. |
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Ibn Rushd
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Ahboo4, you can talk to the posters here privately using the buttons at the bottom of each of their posts. There is a little button that says profile, and another one that says pm. Use the pm button and you can converse with them and it doesn't use the e-mail, so you'll still be safe. So far as my experience, this is the first forum that has this and it acts kinda like an e-mail, but it isn't a real e-mail. |
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bread
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. Ahboo4,
Ibn Rushd is right. the PM messaging is safe and does not reveal your IP to other people here. Use it.
I have a question about ``first Islam`` you mentioned earlier. Is that a Quran only sect, like the Submitters or the 19ers? The^y also accept Quran but not Hadith and Sunnah. Or do you mean another group?
Just curious |
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Unknown 354
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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My first reaction was fury, a fury so strong that I risked confronting my father the next morning at breakfast. "You can't possibly believe all that god stuff! Do you?" I demanded. "You're an intelligent, educated man. God is as much a hoax as Santa Claus and not nearly as much fun. And only kids believe in Santa."
His response made me even angrier. This pillar of the religious community, this trustee of the local Presbyterian church, this man who supported the church financially and attended services every Sunday told me calmly that no, he didn't believe what the church taught. But he did believe that without the church there would be no morality in the world. Children learned right and wrong in the church, and adults lived righteous lives because they believed in God and heaven and hell.
I have since learned that this attitude is not unusual among many who appear to be religious. They are less concerned with their own spirituality than with the conduct of others. They see themselves as superior, able to understand their religion as mythology and still conduct their lives morally. But they don't think the ordinary person can do that, so they count on religion to keep the masses under control. Indeed, throughout history such "superior" men have used religion to regulate their slaves and subjugate women.
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i kind of think differently.it's not atheism , but the transition to it.atheists can be more moral than believes,but how do we get there?
the first islam sect relies heavily on the quran,with critical approaches to ahadith and other things.it is supposed to be "the true,pure islam" , like when an egyptian sheik went to paris,120 years ago,and said upon his return "in paris i saw no muslims,but i saw islam.in egypt i see muslims,but i don't see any islam"
or at least this is how understand it,hell,i have become versed in islamic theology.
i don't believe in this,but i try to use it as a cover.but it is not working,i have been reading on www.infidels.org for more than 4 hours by now,and i fear i have become a true atheist,in the sense i don't deel like a muslim anymore,and am willing to debate publicly in favour of atheism.
| Quote: | The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his
tongue." -Anonymous
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Unknown 273
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ahboo4 wrote: | ………….
i kind of think differently.it's not atheism , but the transition to it.atheists can be more moral than believes,but how do we get there?
the first islam sect relies heavily on the quran,with critical approaches to ahadith and other things.it is supposed to be "the true,pure islam" , like when an egyptian sheik went to paris,120 years ago,and said upon his return "in paris i saw no muslims,but i saw islam.in egypt i see muslims,but i don't see any islam"
or at least this is how understand it,hell,i have become versed in islamic theology.
i don't believe in this,but i try to use it as a cover.but it is not working,i have been reading on www.infidels.org for more than 4 hours by now,and i fear i have become a true atheist,in the sense i don't deel like a muslim anymore,and am willing to debate publicly in favour of atheism.
………. |
There is nothing wrong in being an atheist. Actually the only thing about Islam that I like is the fact that you more likely than not become an atheist rather then indulge in another fallacy.
Most people that leave other religions change to another religion. This to the mind is equivalent to out of the frying pan into the fire. Most of these decisions are based on economic, social and emotional reasons.
Only converting to an atheist is pure apostasy with no cover up, no hidden agendas no emotional pathology.
That does not mean you wont feel a void. You still need a philosophy for life, a social contract to live by. Goals to have and pursue, all beliefs in there own right. |
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Unknown 354
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:52 am Post subject: |
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b.khan wrote :
| Quote: | | Only converting to an atheist is pure apostasy with no cover up, no hidden agendas no emotional pathology. |
| Quote: | | That does not mean you wont feel a void. You still need a philosophy for life, a social contract to live by. Goals to have and pursue, all beliefs in there own right. |
i agree with you.when i first about purpose,i thought it was some silly joke,or maybe just a pass-time,something to do when you don't have anything else.
maybe it's just another illusion,and i am deceiving myself,it ought to be.i mean,i obviously can continue life without caring,and just pretend to be a muslim,i won't have to lie,or anything,and i don't practice,of course.
declaring atheism is out of the question,i have my family to think of,i am willing to defend my stances,and i won't be hurt,but many will be badly hurt.
there is somethinbg wrong with the current islam,i live in a muslim (middle-eastern) country,and i want to improve my country.maybe it's just
| Quote: | | communism in one's 20s is patrioticism,communism in one's 40s is foolishness |
but i don't want to be a bystander,doing nothing at all.i am not lying to myself,i hope,when i preach a new kind of islam.i hust want this country to improve,and a better life for my people.for those i care about.
on a side note,i don't want to give up on T,but it felt fraudulent to pretend to be a muslim in front of her,she would never understand.it's a "white lie",years ago,in school,when children asked me "how many hours do you study a day? "
i answered "6 hours",although i only studied 2,i wanted to tell them that by hard work you can achive anything,if i said 2 hours,they would believe that some people are better in school than others,i was doing good.and this is axactly what i am doing now.at least i hope so. |
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Piggy
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 835
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| ahboo4 wrote: | | i live in a muslim (middle-eastern) country,and i want to improve my country. |
Hey Ahboo4,
Have you considered doing something to improve the environment there?
Say like a re-aforrestation and agriculture program.
I have been developing a no-tech system of water re-use, re-cycle and bio filtering that would do much to create community joint effort and produce food, fibre-products, timber and live-stock food.
If you are interested I can give you information on this system and you might be able to pass it on to the poorer communities that live remote from the cities.
Let me know if this might help you in your desire to help your land and people.
regards.
piggy. |
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bread
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Only converting to an atheist is pure apostasy with no cover up, no hidden agendas no emotional pathology.
That does not mean you wont feel a void. You still need a philosophy for life, a social contract to live by. Goals to have and pursue, all beliefs in there own right. |
I think Agnosticism is also a good and true apostasy from Islam. (yeah, I am an Agnostic, not an Atheist).
I reject any religion. I do however remain open to proof that a deity or more than one deity exists, if anyone had clear physical, measurable proof of that. Until such proofs is provided, I consider it a fable, and unsupported claim. Never in history was there any such proof provided that deities exist. |
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Unknown 273
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| bread wrote: |
I reject any religion. I do however remain open to proof that a deity or more than one deity exists, if anyone had clear physical, measurable proof of that. Until such proofs is provided, I consider it a fable, and unsupported claim. Never in history was there any such proof provided that deities exist. |
I wonder what a clear physical, measurable proof would be. Bread you a physicist, you tell me, by definition in a closed universe we cannot expect interactions from outside, just wont work right. In such a place how can we find an almighty diety, we can only expect to find infinetly advanced civilizations but diety - come on.
I used to call myself an agnostic whenever I thought I wont go too far in a conversation with a beautiful women if I said Atheist. You know agnostic is so intellectual and romantic - only waiting to find the truth, implying that one is searching, how noble. |
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bread
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Mr. B.Khan,
I made a thread in the section Atheism on that issue (i.e. physical/measurable proof about existence of God). Wouldnt this question belong there?
I`ll be brief: psysical proof is s proof that can be see, touched, heared, felt etc. wheter through our senses or throught our instruments.
Measurable proof, would include the above, as well as non-pshysical but quantifiable proofs, using instruments (eg gravity and light are not material-photon is weightless, wave/particle and gravity is in wave form- but they can be measured, same goes to neutrinos, muon, gluons, quarks etc)
| Quote: | | by definition in a closed universe we cannot expect interactions from outside, just wont work right |
Wrong: first the model of the Universe is far from clear about it being closed. Second, even if it were closed, closed systems can be influenced from outside. Third, ``God`` if She is indeed omnipresent, thes She could be both inside and outside the universe. The propble is with defining ``God``, which is nothing more tahn a mental construct, shifting with culture and frontiers of science, thus exhibiting infinite flexibility.
| Quote: | | In such a place how can we find an almighty diety, we can only expect to find infinetly advanced civilizations but diety - come on. |
Well, neither the fictional Moses, nor the assasin Jesus nor the charlatan MuhamMAD were to specific about ``God``, so an advanced enough civilisation could have played all the tricks of Bible and Moran.  
But, why not, a ``God`` could very well exist. And if proof is given, I wil analyse it and if strong, I wil acceot it. So far, all religions (except Buddhism which has no ``God``) have asked us to accapt on faith their descriptions and claims about ``God``, with no phsysical, measurable proof ever given. Since the religions make claims of ``God``, the burden of proof is on them to provide evidence of such. So far, ``God`` and unicorns and fairies remained without proof. I am willing to accept the possibility of God existing, but until I see them coming forth with proof, I suspend judgement, one way or the other. |
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Piggy
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 835
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| bread wrote: | | nor the assasin Jesus |
Dear Bread,
Where did you get this from?
Can you substantiate this claim?
regards.
piggy. |
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bread
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Sure I can.. I just PMed you the material. |
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Unknown 273
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:42 am Post subject: |
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bread
come on man we would like to see that too, why PM it, is jesus sacred and MO is not.
Jesus was a Schizophrenic with hallucinations and delusions like any other schizopheric, having made countless crossess to hang his brethren by the Romans who wont get hallucinations of being on fire and such.
(i dont waste too much time on educating my self about these idiots, just narrating what I saw in a fictional account in the film the last temptation of christ, which I saw for its sound tract - a fellow paki had a few songs in it). |
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Unknown 273
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:48 am Post subject: |
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and Charlatan or not, Mo had our ancestors by the balls. If and when we untangle that hold I dont want to be drinking cow piss as holy (hindu) or worse find myself in a pro-life parade behind a homosexual priest who is eyeing my 8 y/o boy.
Dont we desperatly need a social contract for the atheists (and agnostics - after breads convincing argument and insistence) any idea what that could be. It must be applicable on a global scale yet survive in pockets in its infancy. |
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