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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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 Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:06 am Post subject: Hypocrisy in Islam |
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| Quote: | [4.138] Announce to the hypocrites that they shall have a painful chastisement:
[4.142] Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah, and He shall requite their deceit to them, and when they stand up to prayer they stand up sluggishly; they do it only to be seen of men and do not remember Allah save a little.
[4.145] Surely the hypocrites are in the lowest stage of the fire and you shall not find a helper for them.
[33.1] O Prophet! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and do not comply with (the wishes of) the unbelievers and the hypocrites; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise; |
Allah/Muhammad are very critical of the hypocrites. This thread is to determine the extent that Islam contains hypocrisy.
Muhammad having more than 4 wives would be an example |
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Farside
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 324
Location: The Other Side
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:39 am Post subject: Poll |
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 Farside’s Poll
 Instructions: Press the image that agrees with the statement. 
 Muhammad is a hypocrite.
 Muhammad is not a hypocrite.
 Muhammad enjoyed being a hypocrite.
 Extenuating circumstances made Muhammad a hypocrite.
 Muhammad is in the lowest stage of the fire and is suffering painful chastisement.
 Another dumb post from the Farside.
From the Farside  |
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adnan
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| great post, thanks rand, saved post |
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SMHA
Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Hypocrisy in Islam |
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| Quote: | [quote="rand.
Muhammad having more than 4 wives would be an example |
[/quote]
Let me say that i don't feel we can have a educated discussion when people have made up their minds to trash a religion. So, my choices are to waste time in endless debates with peopel who have an axe to grind, and can't and will not think logically or research both sides. And sicne the otherside in not inquiring or seeking knowledge (if this was the case they would also study and reflect on the material presented to them many times on this forum.) but they seem to have an agenda and this is not condusive to good discussion. So, i will post what has been said/written and i have nothing further to add sicne its selfexplanatory. If you think i am brain dead and can't think for myself , you can think whatever you like, it does not concern me. Beacuse i am not here to prove my intellagence or to show of knowledge. Who i am and what i thnik is not important at this point. Whats important is that people be given the opportunity to read both sides so they can make an educated decission on the basis of the info provided , if its not enough they will conduct further research and will eventually reach the Truth. Provided they are seekers. For the rest , enjoy your time here sicne it will not bring any gain to you except that you would have lost precious time in blindly following few who's true intention were kept hidden form you. Look around and make an assesment of the knowlwdge of the people who are leaders here. And make an honest decison about the depth of their knowledge of the subject(Islam) that are bent on trashing.
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An Academic discourse on many marriages of the Prophet
(Al-Mizan, Volume 7)
Another target of their objection is the many marriages of the Prophet. They say: Plurality of marriage in itself points to avidity and to yielding to lust and desire; and the Prophet was not content with four wives which he had allowed to his ummah, but exceeded even that limit and married nine women.
This question is related to many different verses of the Qur'an, and detailed discussion of its every aspect should be given under those verses. Therefore, we are leaving the details for the relevant places, restricting ourselves to a short description here in a general way.
It is necessary to point out that the plurality of the Prophet's marriages is not such a simple matter as to be dismissed in a sentence that 'he was inordinately fond of women, so much so that he married nine wives.' The fact is that he had married each one of his wives for some particular reason in particular circumstances during his long life. His first marriage was with Khadijah (may Allah be pleased with her), and he lived with her alone for more than twenty* years, and it constitutes two-thirds of his married life— and covered [almost] the whole Meccan period of the prophethood. Then he immigrated to Medina and began spreading the Call and raising the words of religion. Thereafter he married several women—virgin and widows, young, old and middle-aged. This continued for about ten years, then the women were prohibited to him other than those who were already in his marriage. Obviously, these happenings with these peculiarities cannot be explained just by love of women or desire and passion for them, because his early life and the later period both contradict this assumption.
Just look at a man with a passion for women who is infatuated with carnal desire, and enamored of female companionship, with a sensual lust for them. You will find him attracted to their adornment, spending his time in pursuit of beauty, infatuated with coquetry and flirtation, and craving for youth tender age and fresh complexion.
But these peculiarities were diametrically opposite of the Prophet's character. He married widows after virgin, old-aged women after young girls. He married Umm Salamah (an aged woman) and Zaynab bint Jahsh (who was more than fifty years of age) after marrying 'A'ishah and Umm Habibah, and so on.
Then he offered his wives a choice that he should give them a provision and allow them to depart gracefully (i.e., divorce them) if they desire this world and its adornment, or they should renounce the world and abstain from adornments and embellishments if they desired Allah and His Messenger and the latter abode. It may be seen in the following words of Allah: O Prophet! say to your wives: "If you desire this world's life and its ornature, then come, I will give you a provision and allow you to depart a goodly departing. And if you desire Allah and His Messenger and the latter abode, then surely Allah has prepared for the doers of good among you a mighty reward" (33: 28 - 29). As you see this is not the attitude of a man who is enamoured of women's love and infatuated with carnal desire.
If a scholar, after deeply studying this matter, follows the dictates of justice, he will have to look for some reasons, other than avidity and lust, for his plurality of wives, beginning with his early life to the latter days.
In fact he (s.a.w.a.) had married some of them to add to his strength by increasing relationships and helping hands; some of them were taken into marriage to win the enemies' hearts and as a protection from some of their evils. He married some others to maintain and protect them, in order that it might become a regular practice among the believers for the protection of widows and aged women against poverty and degradation. Some marriages were performed to practically affirm and enforce a lawful order, for abolition of evil traditions and false innovations, which were prevalent in the society. This was the case of his marriage with Zaynab bint Jahsh; she was first married to Zayd ibn Harithah, then Zayd divorced her; this Zayd was called "son of the Messenger of Allah" by the [pre-Islamic] custom of adoption; the pagans considered wife of an adopted son like the wife of an actual son and the "father-in-law" could not marry her. Therefore the Prophet married her [to confirm abrogation of adoption and the related customs], and several verses were revealed on this subject.
The first woman to be married to the Prophet after the death of Khadijah, was Sawdah bint Zam'ah, whose husband had expired after returning from the second migration of Abyssinia. Sawdah was a believing lady who had migrated [for her faith] . If she were left to return to her own family who at that time were unbelievers, they would have tortured and tormented her as they were doing with other believing men and women using suppression and killings and forcing them to renounce their faith.
He married Zaynab bint Khuzaymah after her husband, 'Abdullah ibn Jahsh, was martyred in Uhud. She was one of the most generous ladies even in the era of ignorance, and was called "Mother of the poor", in recognition of her generosity and kindness towards needy people. The Prophet, with this marriage, preserved her prestige and dignity.
He also married Umm Salamah, whose actual name was Hind. Before that, she was married to 'Abdullah Abu Salamah, who was a cousin" of the Prophet (son of his paternal aunt) and his foster brother; Abu Salamah [and his wife] were among the first to emigrate to Abyssinia. She had renounced the worldly pleasure and was highly distinguished in piety and wisdom. When her husband died she was very advanced in age and had many orphan n children. That is why the Prophet married her.
Safiyyah was daughter of Huyayy ibn Akhtab, the chief of Banu 'e-Nadir. Her husband was killed in the battle of Khaybar, and her father with Banu Qurayzah, and she was among the captives of Khaybar. The Prophet chose her for himself and married her after emancipating her. With this marriage he protected her from humiliation and established affinity with the Children of Israel.
The marriage with Juwayriyyah, i.e., Barrah, daughter of al-Harith, the chief of Banu 'l-Mustaliq, was performed after the battle of Banu 'l-Mustaliq. The Muslims had arrested two hundred of their families together with women and children. The Prophet married Juwayriyyah; so the Muslims said: "These are the relatives of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.) by marriage; they should not be held captives." So they freed all of them. Impressed by this nobility, the whole tribe of Banu 'l-Mustaliq entered into the fold of Islam. It was a very large tribe, and this [generosity of the Muslims as well as the Islam of that tribe, created a good impression throughout Arabia.
One of his wives was Maymunah, whose name was Barrah bint al-Harith al-Hilaliyyah. She was the one who gifted herself to the Prophet after the death of her second husband, Abu Ruhm ibn 'Abdi 'l-'Uzza (al-'Amir;). The Prophet then married her, and a verse was revealed regarding her marriage.
Also he married Umm Hablbah, i.e., Ramlah daughter of Abu Sufyan. She was married to 'Ubaydullah ibn Jahsh and had emigrated with him to Abyssinia in the second Migration. While there, 'Ubaydullah was converted to Christianity, but she remained steadfastly on Islam; while her father, Abu Sufyan, in those days, was gathering army after army to annihilate the Muslims. Therefore, the Prophet married her and afforded protection to her.
Hafsah bint 'Umar was married to him after her husband, Khunays ibn Hudhafah, was killed in Badr, and she was left a widow.
And he married 'A'ishah bint Ab; Bakr, and she was a virgin.
When one looks at these details, and ponders on what we have mentioned above regarding the Prophet's life from his early days to the end, and on his self-denial and rejection of worldly embellishments, and his exhortation to his wives to do the same, one can have no doubt that the marriages which he had contracted with these women were not like those done by other people. And to it the benevolence with which he treated the womanhood, revived their rights, which the centuries of ignorance and barbarism had put to sleep, and restored their prestige and honor in the society. [He was so much concerned with women's welfare that] reportedly the last words he uttered were addressed to the men about their women. He had said: "(Be careful about) prayer, (be careful about) prayer; and (about) what your right hands possess, do not impose on them what they have no strength for; (fear) Allah, (fear) Allah about the women, because they are helpless in your hands . . . "
His behavior was matchless in dealing equitably with his wives, living with them gracefully and paying regard to their feelings and wishes (as we shall describe some aspects of it when writing on his characteristics in the coming discourses, God willing.) As for the permission to marry more than four, it was, like the fasting continuously for two days without any break at night, an order exclusively reserved for the Prophet—the ummah was prohibited it. It was these especial characteristics—and the fact that all people were clearly aware of them—that did not have any room for objection to his enemies, although they were always on the look out for some openings to attack him.
www.almizan.org
_________________
"They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths,
but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected,
even though the Unbelievers may detest." [Quran 9:32] |
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yeezevee
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 2300
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | SMHA: .......Let me say that i don't feel we can have a educated discussion when people have made up their minds to trash a religion.
....and can't and will not think logically or research both sides....
...... but they seem to have an agenda and this is not condusive to good discussion.... |
That is not true to every one on this forum dear SMHA.., Trashing a religion and educating about the origin of religion are two different things.. But if you feel some one is trashing without any proof.. you should be able to convince them.. After All, Allaha is there on your side... Not people side, who are trashing the religion Islam....
| Quote: | | .......... If you think i am brain dead and can't think for myself , you can think whatever you like, it does not concern me. Because i am not here to prove my intellagence or to show of knowledge........... |
The question of intelligence, show knowledge and quantum sense doesn't arise when we are discussing about Pros and Cons of religions and theirs rules, their effects on day to day to day life of human being dear SMHA. What all one needs is COMMON SENSE.. and there is a plenty of it in every human being.. it is other thing whether a Human being uses IT or NOT.
Let us take a bit of what you posted from that web site and dissect it using common sense.
"An Academic discourse on many marriages of the Prophet"
(Al-Mizan, Volume 7)
| Quote: | | ....This question(Mohammad multiple marriages) is related to many different verses of the Qur'an, and detailed discussion of its every aspect should be given under those verses... |
If you think a bit, Why would Allaha/The God(whatever S/he, it may be) need to worry about Mohammad's marriages? why should they be defended and even written in Q'uran? If I say.. "THE Q'URAN is simply manufactured in defense of Mohammad personal acts/faults.." There is simply no logical and convincing answer for this..
| Quote: | | .. His first marriage was with Khadijah (may Allah be pleased with her), and he lived with her alone for more than twenty* years, and it constitutes two-thirds of his married life— and covered.... |
Here I agree with and say that Khadija did put a leash on Mohammad's acts.. She did control him...Even before her marriage to Mohammad, she was a prominent businesswomen of Arabia.,
| Quote: | | ... Thereafter he married several women—virgin and widows, young, old and middle-aged. This continued for about ten years, then the women were prohibited to him other than those who were already in his marriage. Obviously, these happenings with these peculiarities cannot be explained just by love of women or desire and passion for them, because his early life and the later period both contradict this assumption... |
That is nonsense and a lie dear SMHA..You see, All Mohammad's wives after Khadija were much younger than him, the only old one was his 2nd wife., that Man married her only for few months before he goes for a little girl ,,,
COULD YOU PLEASE PUT UP THE AGES OF EACH WOMEN Mr. Prophet Married dear SMHA...
[quote......He married some others to maintain and protect them, in order that it might become a regular practice among the believers for the protection of widows and aged women against poverty and degradation....[/quote]
This is utter garbage my friend, He could have married them to any one of many of his followers., as far as protection..he was all powerful and had a direct contact with Allaha... Allaha could have easily protected these women...
Let me tell you a open secret here, everything points out THE GUY WAS A WOMANIZER...nothing more and nothing less...
| Quote: | | This was the case of his marriage with Zaynab bint Jahsh; she was first married to Zayd ibn Harithah, then Zayd divorced her; this Zayd was called "son of the Messenger of Allah" by the [pre-Islamic] custom of adoption; the pagans considered wife of an adopted son like the wife of an actual son and the "father-in-law" could not marry her. Therefore the Prophet married her [to confirm abrogation of adoption and the related customs], and several verses were revealed on this subject. |
I tell you here, THIS IS THE WORST THING ANY DECENT HUMAN BEING COULD EVER DO..is it believable?
what all this guy did was, First make her divorce from his adopted SON, and make a new SURA from Allaha and marry the good looking young lady. This it self proves the guy was nothing more than a WOMANIZER, and he used Allaha for HIS PERSONAL problems...
You can go on writing as much apologetic explanations as you want, but the bottom line is, he was a womanizer and used Allaha and extracted SURAS frequently to DEFEND his personal problems...
You know if the guy was really enquiring about Allaha/God and had a vision for Future humanity.. He doesn't need to marry and do all those wars and killings.. he could have simply preached about Allaha after the death of his first wife Khadija and on top of that he had young children to care for..., after his death The Mohammad clan caliphs ruled with iron fist and expanded this cult CALLED ISLAM across the continents
there is NO GOD/NO ALLAHA in this religion my friend... It is all feudal class ruling the innocent Muslims in the name of Allaha.. in the name of PUBH Mr. Prophet..
with best regards
yeezevee |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hypocrisy in Islam:
1. Muslims accuse the OT and NT of having a corrupt text, but the Quran is also corrupt.
2. The Quran is against idolatory, but muslims worship a stone(kaaba).
3. The Quran is constantly discussing biblical characters. It is clear the author was heavily influenced by Judaism/Christianity, Christians and Jews. But the author writes:
| Quote: | | [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. |
Further, Muhammad took a jewish concubine.
In the very interesting book, "Understanding the hadith: the sacred traditions of Islam" that elaborates on Sahih Muslim, by Ram Swarup:
| Quote: | | Safiyya was no exception. Many other women...were taken in and treated as war booty. Rihana was a Jewish girl of the Banu Quraizah. After her husband was beheaded in cold blood along with 800 other male members of her tribe in the genocide of medina, muhammad kept her as his concubine. |
4. Many muslimahs dress in burqas or hijab in the name of modesty, but Muhammad was able to have a harem.
5. Witnesses
| Quote: | | [2.23] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. |
Muhammmad had no witnesses that Allah wrote Quran.
==
6. | Quote: | | [15.7] Why do you not bring to us the angels if you are of the truthful ones? |
Allah mentions this in the Quran. Okay muslims, bring us the angels if you are truthful.
7. He can question, but not be questioned.
| Quote: | | [16.93] And if Allah please He would certainly make you a single nation, but He causes to err whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases; and most certainly you will be questioned as to what you did. |
| Quote: | [5.101] O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.
[5.102] A people before you indeed asked such questions, and then became disbelievers on account of them. |
| Quote: | [21.22] If there had been in them any gods except Allah, they would both have certainly been in a state of disorder; therefore glory be to Allah, the Lord of the dominion, above what they attribute (to Him).
[21.23] He cannot be questioned concerning what He does and they shall be questioned. |
== |
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SMHA
Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| rand wrote: | 2. The Quran is against idolatory, but muslims worship a stone(kaaba).
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Everything else is the usual retoric so i am not going to even respond sicne you already know the answers.
But this Worshiping of the Kaaba is the first form you> . Do yourself a favor get your facts straight.
_________________
"They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths,
but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected,
even though the Unbelievers may detest." [Quran 9:32] |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:21 am Post subject: |
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SMHA wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | | But this Worshiping of the Kaaba is the first form you> . Do yourself a favor get your facts straight. |
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http://www.cgsf.org/rwaite/The-Plain-Truth-About-Islam.html
tries to show how Safa and Marwa were pagan practices.
| Quote: | What about the Pilgrimage?
"The Pilgrimage is a SURVIVAL OF THE ANCIENT ARABIAN PILGRIMAGES TO THE HOLY STONES. Almost none of the customs attended upon the pilgrimage DERIVE FROM MUHAMMAD TIMES...Muhammad changed the sevenfold tawaf or cicumambulation of the Kaaba only in one respect BEFORE HIS TIME it was performed naked" (Payne, The History of Islam, p.79, emphasis mine). These customs were done to Hubal long before Muhammad, and none of these customs started in Mohammed's time, they were already there. Muhammad just changed ONE thing, being naked that's all.
"...several pre-Islamic ritual practices ESPECIALLY THOSE CONNECTED WITH THE KAABA CULT IN MECCA WERE CONTINUED BY MUHAMMAD..." (Frederick Denny, An Introduction to Islam, p.56, emphasis mine).
"...important Muslim practices such as visiting the Kaaba, and the many details of the ceremony of Hajj, including visits of Safa and Marwa, and also throwing stones against the stone pillar symbolizing Satan, were ALL PRE-ISLAMIC PRACTICES OF PAGAN ARABIA" (Answering Islam, Norman Geisler, p.309, emphasis mine).
"Pagan ritualism also CONTRIBUTED to the religious world into which Muhammad was born...The PAGANS OF PRE-ISLAMIC ARABIA taught that everyone should bow and pray towards Mecca during certain times of the day. Everyone should make a pilgrimage to Mecca to worship at the Kaaba at least once in their life. Once they arrive at Mecca, the PAGANS RAN AROUND THE KAABA SEVEN TIMES KISSED THE BLACK STONE...The pagan rites comprised the religion into which MUHAMMAD WAS RAISED BY HIS FAMILY [who were worshippers of Hubal-the Allah of Mecca] IS ACKNOWLEDGED BY ALL. Thus it is no surprise to find that, as Arab scholar Nazar-Ali has observed: 'Islam RETAINED MANY ASPECTS OF THE PAGAN RELIGION''' (Morey, Islamic Invasion, pp.42-43, emphasis mine).
"Middle Eastern scholar, E.M. Wherry in his monumental work, A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran shows that worship of Allah and the worship of BAAL (HUBAL) involved the worship of heavenly bodies, the moon, the stars and the sun" (Moshey, Who is this Allah, p.137, emphasis mine). Notice Allah and Hubal or Baal, the religions are exactly the same, because the deities are the same!
Here are some more quotes about the origins of the ceremonies in Islam:
"Islam owes many of its most superstitious details to old ARABIAN PAGANISM especially in the rites and rituals of the pilgrimage to Mecca (see suras 2:153; 22:28-30; 5:1-4; 22:37)...the superstitions connected with the jinn's [Genies] and old folk tales such as those of Ad and Thamud...The entire ceremony of the pilgrimage has been shamelessly taken over from PRE-ISLAMIC PRACTICE...Cicumambulation of a sanctuary was a very common rite practiced in many localities. The pilgrim during his circuit frequently kissed or caressed the Idol. Sir William Muir thinks that the seven circuits of the Kaaba 'were probably emblematical of the revolution of the planetary bodies.' While Zwemer goes so far as to suggest that the seven circuits of the Kaaba, three time rapidly and four times slowly were 'an imitation of the inner and outer planets.'...It UNQUESTIONABLE that the Arabs at a comparatively late period worshipped the sun and other heavenly bodies" (Warraq, pp.35-36, 40, emphasis mine). |
Dear SMHA,
If pagans worship by a certain stone, in a certain location. Would you pray in front of such a stone?
Islamic Q&A writes:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=34817&dgn=4
| Quote: | Shirk may sometimes take the form of actions:
Such as one who sacrifices, prays or prostrates to something other than Allaah, or ... |
| Quote: | – Minor shirk
This includes everything that may lead to major shirk, or which is described in the texts as being shirk, but does not reach the extent of being major shirk.
This is usually of two types:
1 – Being emotionally attached to some means which have no basis and for which Allaah has not given permission, such as hanging up “hands”, turquoise beads etc on the grounds that they offer protection or that they ward off the evil eye. But Allaah has not made them the means of such protection, either according to sharee’ah or according to the laws of the universe. |
Best regards,
Rand |
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SMHA
Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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Let me repeat, We don’t worship Idols. Imam Ali(a.s) has best words on what is God (*). We worship God( Allah(s.w.t)) not a stone house. He does not live in it. We pray towards it, for many reason and one is that it’s a focal point for All Muslims where ever they may be in this world, they face towards it in prayers. So, if its prayer time and you are praying, you are not alone whoever is praying, he or she is praying in the SAME direction.
Please read the history of the Kaaba(1) to understand that it was used by the pagans of that time and they had incorporated external rituals in the original practice which was started in the times of Prophet Abraham(a.s)(Ibrahim). Also read what is Hajj if you want a clearer picture of the subject you are commenting on by linking the practice to idol worshiping.(2)
To understand the historical background on Safa and Marwa , read (3)
(*)
“The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.
Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence. “
Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s.)
http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/1.htm
(1)
http://www.al-islam.org/kaaba14/1.htm
http://www.almizan.org/Tafsir/CH1/FAT1-5.html
Hajj 
The Greater Pilgrimage
(2)
http://www.al-islam.org/hajj/shariati/17.htm
(3)
http://www.al-islam.org/quran/default.asp?searchText=safa&sura=2&fAya=125&tAya=125&tAliCommentary=checked
---------------------------------------------
End.
_________________
"They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths,
but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected,
even though the Unbelievers may detest." [Quran 9:32] |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:44 am Post subject: |
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SMHA writes:
| Quote: | | Please read the history of the Kaaba(1) to understand that it was used by the pagans of that time and they had incorporated external rituals in the original practice which was started in the times of Prophet Abraham(a.s)(Ibrahim). Also read what is Hajj if you want a clearer picture of the subject you are commenting on by linking the practice to idol worshiping.(2) |
It is a legend, and not history that the kaaba was worshipped by Abraham.
http://www.cgsf.org/rwaite/The-Plain-Truth-About-Islam.html writes:
| Quote: | "It is virtually certain that Abraham NEVER reached Mecca" (Watt, p.136, Muslim and Christian Encounters, emphasis mine).
"According to Muslim Tradition, Abrah, and Ishmael built the Kaaba...But outside these traditions there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE for this claim-whether epigraphic, archaeologi , r documentary. Indeed Snouck Hurgronje has shown that Muhammad INVENTED the story to give his religion an Arabian origin...at the same time incorporating into Islam the Kabah with all its historical and religious associations for the Arabs" (Warraq, Why I Am Not A Muslim, p.131, emphasis mine). |
Best regards,
Rand |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | [18.27] And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord, there is none who can alter His words; and you shall not find any refuge besides Him. |
| Quote: | | [2.106] Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things? |
| Quote: | 010.015
YUSUFALI: But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."
PICKTHAL: And when Our clear revelations are recited unto them, they who look not for the meeting with Us say: Bring a Lecture other than this, or change it. Say (O Muhammad): It is not for me to change it of my accord. I only follow that which is inspired in me. Lo! if I disobey my Lord I fear the retribution of an awful Day.
SHAKIR: And when Our clear communications are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say: Bring a Quran other than this or change it. Say: It does not beseem me that I should change it of myself; I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day. |
It is hypocritical to claim that the text cannot be altered, but then alter it or forget the old communication and replace it with one better, or to abrogate a communication. |
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Brigitte
Joined: 14 Dec 2002
Posts: 283
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:57 am Post subject: |
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When living in muslim country, I see hypocrisie all around me.
Hypocrisie of the wife towards her husband, hypocrisie of the husband towards his wife, hypocrisie of the parents towards their children, hypocrisie of the children towards their parents, hypocrisie towards one's neighbours, family, friends... hypocrisie allover, just to be able to survive in a human way...under the laws of islam. By the way, didn't Mo himself allow hypocrisie and cheating (Attakkeyya)? So another contradiction is found in the perfect religion of islam.
Never did I experience so much hypocrisie, lying and cheating as in muslim country! Each person has to take care of what he does or says or even thinks, it is important that the others don't know what you have inside your heart, they might find something harraam in it! So hypocrisie becomes normal part of the game.
Of course, in the West you find hypocrits too, but let's say that those are in minority and certainly not encouraged! Hypocrisie is not a part of the lifestyle in the West.
Brigitte |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Brigitte wrote:
| Quote: | When living in muslim country, I see hypocrisie all around me.
Hypocrisie of the wife towards her husband, hypocrisie of the husband towards his wife, hypocrisie of the parents towards their children, hypocrisie of the children towards their parents, hypocrisie towards one's neighbours, family, friends... hypocrisie allover, just to be able to survive in a human way...under the laws of islam. ...
Never did I experience so much hypocrisie, lying and cheating as in muslim country! Each person has to take care of what he does or says or even thinks, it is important that the others don't know what you have inside your heart, they might find something harraam in it! So hypocrisie becomes normal part of the game.
Of course, in the West you find hypocrits too, but let's say that those are in minority and certainly not encouraged! Hypocrisie is not a part of the lifestyle in the West. |
Dear Brigitte,
I found your response to be vague. Can you provide some examples, or types of things that muslims are hypocritical about?
An interesting point that you might have been suggesting is that because Islam considers apostasy as such a serious offense, and because a sincere muslim that has unorthodox views can get in serious trouble, it can breed hypocrisy. People feel pressured into giving lip-service to ideas they do not believe in.
Best regards,
Rand |
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CroMagnon
Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 2112
Location: West Kafiristan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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here's an article that shows some real muslim hypocricy:
http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/obligedtohate.html
| Quote: | Muslims around the world are quick to complain, demand exuses from and file lawsuits against non-muslims that dare to utter 'unrespectful' words about muslims and Islam.... But where's their public outcry against muslim messages of hatred and intolerance as quoted above ...?
Don't the muslims realize these messages of hatred and enmity are deeply offensive and hurtful to the non-muslims? |
some islamic hate-speech examples from that article:
(references/links in the article)
| Quote: | The Kaafir is the worst of Allaah’s creatures. He says: "They are the worst of creatures." (Al-Bayyinah: 6).
When a Kaafir dies, the whole of humanity are relieved.
Dear Muslims! Emulating a people in their outward dispositions necessitates emulating them in their inner characters. Emulating the first generation of this ummah who are the Sahaabah and at-Taabi’een increases one in intellect, religiosity and good conduct while emulating the non-Muslims in their outward characteristics leads to emulating them in their conducts and ugly deeds. It also makes one love them. Therefore differ from idolaters and disbelievers in their behaviour and opinions and beware of taking them as friends. You should hate them, disown them and their religion |
| Quote: | Now the general trend is agasint hate...
But we muslims cannot deny this... is there hate in Islam?!!
YES there is a true Muslim must hate kafers... |
| Quote: | | We are not allowed to luv the kuffar because we are obligated to luv the Muslims and hate the kuffar. |
| Quote: | | But visiting kaafirs in order to have a good time with them is not permitted, because it is obligatory to hate them and shun them. ... |
| Quote: | | Remember this, for this is one of the things that will help you to hate them and regard them as enemies until they believe in Allaah alone, as mentioned in the aayah quoted above ... |
etc.. 
_________________
Sheikh Ahmad al Kat'ani:
"every hour 667 muslims are converting to christianity" |
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SMHA
Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| CroMagnon wrote: | here's an article that shows some real muslim hypocricy:
http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/obligedtohate.html
| Quote: | Muslims around the world are quick to complain, demand exuses from and file lawsuits against non-muslims that dare to utter 'unrespectful' words about muslims and Islam.... But where's their public outcry against muslim messages of hatred and intolerance as quoted above ...?
Don't the muslims realize these messages of hatred and enmity are deeply offensive and hurtful to the non-muslims? |
some islamic hate-speech examples from that article:
(references/links in the article)
| Quote: | The Kaafir is the worst of Allaah’s creatures. He says: "They are the worst of creatures." (Al-Bayyinah: 6).
When a Kaafir dies, the whole of humanity are relieved.
Dear Muslims! Emulating a people in their outward dispositions necessitates emulating them in their inner characters. Emulating the first generation of this ummah who are the Sahaabah and at-Taabi’een increases one in intellect, religiosity and good conduct while emulating the non-Muslims in their outward characteristics leads to emulating them in their conducts and ugly deeds. It also makes one love them. Therefore differ from idolaters and disbelievers in their behaviour and opinions and beware of taking them as friends. You should hate them, disown them and their religion |
| Quote: | Now the general trend is agasint hate...
But we muslims cannot deny this... is there hate in Islam?!!
YES there is a true Muslim must hate kafers... |
| Quote: | | We are not allowed to luv the kuffar because we are obligated to luv the Muslims and hate the kuffar. |
| Quote: | | But visiting kaafirs in order to have a good time with them is not permitted, because it is obligatory to hate them and shun them. ... |
| Quote: | | Remember this, for this is one of the things that will help you to hate them and regard them as enemies until they believe in Allaah alone, as mentioned in the aayah quoted above ... |
etc.. :roll: |
[Shakir 98:6] Surely those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein; they are the worst of men.
[Yusufali 98:6] Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
[Pickthal 98:6] Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 98:6]
To reject truth and belie the truthful is the worst sin a creature, endowed with the ability to discriminate between right and wrong and to use his free will, can commit. Therefore it will necessarily bring its own punishment, because such a person is the worst of creatures.
--------------------------------
Surah 109: al-Kaafiroon (The Disbelievers)
[109:1] Say: O disbelievers!
[109:2] I worship not that which ye worship;
[109:3] Nor worship ye that which I worship.
[ 109:4] And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
[109:5] Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
[109:6] Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
----------------------------------------------
"O' sons of Abdul Muttalib! Let there be no retaliation for the act of my murder, do not roam about with a drawn sword and with the slogan: "Amir al-Mu'minin is killed", and do not start the massacre of my opponents and enemies.
See to it that only one man, that is my assassin, is killed, as the punishment of the crime of murder is death and nobody else is molested. The punishment to the man who attempted the murder shall take place only when I die of the wound delivered by him and this punishment shall be only one stroke of sword to end his life. He should not be tortured before his death, his hands and feet should not be amputated because I have heard the Holy Prophet (s) saying: "Do not amputate hands and feet of anybody, be it a biting dog"."
http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/letter47.htm#letter47
_________________
"They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths,
but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected,
even though the Unbelievers may detest." [Quran 9:32] |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | [5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, |
SMHA writes:
| Quote: | | He should not be tortured before his death, his hands and feet should not be amputated because I have heard the Holy Prophet (s) saying: "Do not amputate hands and feet of anybody, be it a biting dog"." |
Dear SMHA,
Are you implying that the holy prophet did not wrte 5:33 or was this verse abrogated?
Best regards,
Rand |
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SMHA
Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| rand wrote: | | Quote: | | [5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, |
SMHA writes:
| Quote: | | He should not be tortured before his death, his hands and feet should not be amputated because I have heard the Holy Prophet (s) saying: "Do not amputate hands and feet of anybody, be it a biting dog"." |
Dear SMHA,
Are you implying that the holy prophet did not wrte 5:33 or was this verse abrogated?
Best regards,
Rand |
http://www.al-islam.org/quran/default.asp?searchText=Allah&sura=5&fAya=33&tAya=33&tAliCommentary=checked
_________________
"They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths,
but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected,
even though the Unbelievers may detest." [Quran 9:32] |
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Brigitte
Joined: 14 Dec 2002
Posts: 283
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:16 am Post subject: |
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Hi Rand,
I am sure that in most muslim countries, once the thread of dead for apostacy would be lifted, a lot of atheists would stand up!
When I speak about thread of dead, I don't mean only physical, but also social and psychological dead...
Some stupid examples of daily hypocrisy in muslim country:
- hypocrisy of woman towards her husband : faking having her menses just to have some night rest in the spousal bed...
- hypocrisy of man towards his wife : pretending she's the one that will have the benefit of him marrying a second (third, fourth) wife...
- hypocrisy of parents towards children : faking to love them dearly while enslaving them in muslim chains (especially daughters) and only taking the opinion of neighbours into account...
- hypocrisy of children towards parents : hiding to do certain things (f.i. smoking...) in the name of "respect".
- hypocrisy towards neighbours : never tell someone when you're ill seriously, people might think Allah sent you a curse for your bad behaviour. This happened to me, I had breast cancer and my family was scared that someone might find out ...
...
...
...
I can go on for hours like this.
Islam IS hypocrisie!
Brigitte |
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rand
Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:18 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Brigitte,
Muslims are fond of using the OUT OF CONTEXT rationalization for the quran and hadith.
Muslims tend to censor/prohibit/discourage of reading, certain books. They then quote scientists to muslims--but those scientists or just excerpts from some scientists that coincide with their view. In muslim countries, they censor the media, so they often only hear a muslim viewpoint, or a western viewpoint that sympathizes with their ideas. They only read biographers of Muhammad that are sympathetic to Islam.
Therefore, with regards to views of history, logic, ethics, Islam, western thought, etc. muslims are presented views out of context.
Further, while certain muslims have a problem with kaffirs quoting quran and hadith out of context--as if there was a way to justify all the inhumanity in quran and hadith. Thjey have no problem if a muslim web site trashes the OT, NT and other religions. Actually, the quran criticizes other religions. |
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