Faith Freedom International

Perro Grande · Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 198

This topic continues a discussion started on another thread.

In this topic, we can investigate the Buddhist definitions of Karma, the theory related to rebirth, and the scientific evidence that may lend credence to this theory.

To get things rolling:

jihadjay · Joined: 27 Nov 2002 Posts: 1079 Location: JAPAN - Kansai

I think you have already made an error, and it is a simple error which shows that this debate will be merely based on faith.

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Quote (Ari) states:

"Rebirth according Buddhism. It has a very scientific, sophisticated and solid theory behind it. Not at all like a oversimplistic fairy-tale theology that monotheism purports."

ARI also states:

"Buddhism is soothing without its grand promises/guarantee of salvation and eternal life"
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Jihadjay states the following:

Note this is a comment praising Buddhism which believes in the theory that we can come back maybe 10,000 times - yet ARI makes it clear that Buddhism does not gaurantee eternal life."

Now you work that one out!!!!! Laughing

And note how ARI claims that Buddhism is scientific one moment, and now it can not guarantee anything! Laughing

I continue with the following:

This is untrue. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, and so forth, can not give a scientific account of either "rebirth" or "The Day of Judgement."

It is based on faith, for all followers - science would not validate reincarnation or the Day of Judgement - if science could, then do you think we would be debating this now? And don't you think that all other faiths would have collapsed and all atheists will have seen the light?

This is a non-starter, it can not be proved by science.

Reincarnation is a "comfort zone" and people can state that "heaven" is a "comfort zone" for Muslims, Christians and Jews. If any faith had the "truth" and "science" on its side, then the world would be revolutionized in a day.

Come on, please acknowledge that this is a "faith" based question only - and science would never support the theory of reincarnation, for it is not possible.

When we all die we will be dead, and we will never move again and cease to be part of the dynamics of life. Yes, faith gives us hope, and this applies to all religions - but this is not based on science, on the contrary, science only validates our death.

So who sounds more enlightened? The honest Christian who makes it clear that science can not validate any religion - or ARI and his view that Buddhism is scientific, but then states it can not "guarantee salvation and eternal life."

So who is the zealot now? Wink

And who is the missionary now? Wink

Is it me who happens to be honest - or ARI who thinks that he knows the "truth" and that science can support the theory of reincarnation?

Yet the "truth" can never be known, only people can think they know the "truth," but in reality you have "millions of truths" and each will "contradict many so-called truths."

With respect!!! Laughing

_________________
In support of Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, and other minorities in India.

LONG LIVE CHRISTIAN NAGALAND - AND OPEN YOUR EYES TO RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION IN BUDDHIST COUNTRIES.

Ari · Joined: 27 Aug 2002 Posts: 976 Location: New York

jihadjay · Joined: 27 Nov 2002 Posts: 1079 Location: JAPAN - Kansai

ARI - you have proved nothing, your own words mock you - and how can science validate thousands of reincarnations - yes it is a non-starter.

Buddhism is nothing more than pure "escapism" with regards to the "fear of death."

Islam, Christianity and Judaism believe in answering for your actions in one life - Buddhism just lets you keep on coming back thousands of time - AND NEITHER CONCEPT CAN BE PROVED SCIENTIFIC

So ARI you are mocking yourself - Science can no more validate Christianity than Buddism - Science can not state that people are reborn thousands of times over - so ARI - name these great scientists who support reincarnation.

Then tell me about physics, biology, chemistry, metaphysics and so forth.

ARI AND HIS LAW ON SCIENCE AND PHYSICS AND HOW THE SOUL CAN BE PROVED TO BE REBORN - he states;

-------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (Ari) states:

"Rebirth according Buddhism. It has a very scientific, sophisticated and solid theory behind it. Not at all like a oversimplistic fairy-tale theology that monotheism purports."

ARI also states:

"Buddhism is soothing without its grand promises/guarantee of salvation and eternal life"
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Now if people stop laughing at these "great words of wisdom" then just wait for ARI and his theory of physics, biology, chemistry, metaphysics, and other theories.

You see ARI is so enlightened that he knows about things like this - forget all the Western and Eastern scientists of the past, instead lets all wait for ARI, the most enlightened scientist to walk the earth and now ARI is going to tell us how people are reincarnated.

Please write down your mathematic formula and then physics, chemistry and your other countless scientific methods that prove reincarnation.

I am waiting!!!!!!!! ARI can I patent your genius? Laughing

So forget NEWTON he knew noting compared with ARI!!! Laughing

Forget KEPLER, who was he, when the great ARI will prove this scientific formula!!! Laughing

ARI states "BUDDHISM IS SOOTHING" - no it is not, for what happens if you have bad karma and do evil deeds? Will your reincarnation be soothing?

And what about DNA, how come we can tell if people come from certain ethnic groups according to the Buddhist principle?

For say I am Buddhist and this is only my 4,000th reincarnation, now my DNA would surely be mixed with different legacies of my ancestors - yet when bones are found science can prove via DNA where these people came from.

Now, given that Buddhists zoom around from one life cycle to another - then DNA would be confused and results would prove this.

Or maybe ARI will come up with a nationalist argument to this - so please write down your science with regards to reincarnation.

THIS TOPIC IS A NON-STARTER.

NOTE THE RELIGIOUS ZEALOT WHO BELIEVES HE CAN ANSWER QUESTIONS THAT OTHER SCIENTISTS CAN'T.

IF THIS IS BUDDHIST ENLIGHTENMENT, then God help the world of science!

NO RELIGION CAN PROVE LIFE AFTER DEATH - ALL RELIGIONS ARE BASED ON FAITH, and that is it.

I believe that I will be judged by GOD - yet I can neither prove God or if heaven exists - and science will state that it does not exist.

Now Buddhists also know that they can't prove if they zoom around from birth after birth, after birth, after birth, yawn, oh sorry, after birth Laughing

- and science will clearly show that reincarnation does not exist.

So ARI I am awaiting your mathematic formula, statements about DNA, your physics angle to this, and metaphysics, and how chemistry is mixed with your great formula.

I would say with respect, but this only applies to ARI, and not his formula unless I can patent it.
Wink

_________________
In support of Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, and other minorities in India.

LONG LIVE CHRISTIAN NAGALAND - AND OPEN YOUR EYES TO RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION IN BUDDHIST COUNTRIES.

igiveup · Joined: 13 Feb 2003 Posts: 169 Location: eastern us

ari and jihadjay, please try to stay on topic. we first need to DEFINE the buddhist concept of reincarnation and karma. i'm willing to let ari do this, but if she's more comfortable i'll do it. i'll use a secular source for the definition and one buddhist source. i'll of course give full references: links, books, etc.. but i would prefer online sources seeing as how they would be available to everyone participating in this discussion. deal?

TruthSpeaker · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 203

I would not buy anything igiveup says since the brown ass is a covert christian who has little qualms about lying.

Reincarnation is neither central nor essential to buddhism. Onc can produce as many links that ignore reincarnation as accept it. But then those who believe in it argue about it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again .... infinity plus 1 times agains. Whew.

JJ what does DNA has to do with reincarnation?

Laughing

_________________
- The only religion, is the religion of truth. Without truth there can be no reason.

jihadjay · Joined: 27 Nov 2002 Posts: 1079 Location: JAPAN - Kansai

Hello TRUTHSPEAKER and IGIVEUP

No religion is scientific and science can not explain if REINCARNATION exists or THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT.

And I am waiting for the great ARI, the most enlightened scientist to walk the earth to explain this scientific reality - and no pastes oh great ARI - just your own great scientific findings!!! Wink

So this is a non-starter, sorry!!!

With regards to DNA, when bones of someone dies they still can tell you about your ethnicity - now since Buddhists zoom around from one rebirth to another, and another, another, another, another, and so forth - then their DNA would indicate their past lives - given this DNA would tell ARI where he-she came from in the past and what ethnic groups he/she was born into.

So DNA could help with regards to the "zooming around Buddhist theory!" Laughing

ARI - you are so great that KEPLER, NEWTON, and all the others, are not worthy to be mentioned in the same paragraph or sentence. Please accept my sincere apologies oh great ARI who will soon explain how science can prove reincarnation.

ARI - I beg you not to do this before giving me your patent for me to invest in - but oh noble one, I understand that you desire to tell the world about your great science.

I would say have a nice day, but since this may be your 4,000th rebirth, you may be fed-up of all these days!!! Wink

With utmost respect!!!!

PLEASE NOTE THAT ALL BUDDHISTS, CHRISTIANS, JEWS, HINDUS, MUSLIMS, and so forth - DO NOT HAVE SCIENTIFIC PROVE WHICH WOULD VALIDATE ANY FAITH.

IF CHRISTIANS CLAIM THEY HAVE, THEN I WOULD STATE THE SAME BACK.

All religion is based on "faith." Laughing

_________________
In support of Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, and other minorities in India.

LONG LIVE CHRISTIAN NAGALAND - AND OPEN YOUR EYES TO RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION IN BUDDHIST COUNTRIES.

Mullah Mo · Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 470

Ari · Joined: 27 Aug 2002 Posts: 976 Location: New York

Ari · Joined: 27 Aug 2002 Posts: 976 Location: New York

Ari · Joined: 27 Aug 2002 Posts: 976 Location: New York

Perro Grande · Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 198

To add briefly --

One of the hallmarks of a 'science' vs. a 'pseudo science' lies in the area of falsification.

A Science, or a scientific approach, must accept the falsification of the premise or the hypothesis as a possible outcome of research, experimentation, etc. When falsification is missing, science is missing.

In a recent series of posts in another thread, I've been railing on 'creation science' for the exact problem mentioned above. Many of the monotheistic religions, when interpreted literally, invalidate falsification. The conclusions are foregone, and one must attempt to work backwards to make observable phenomenon match such a conclusion.

Some monotheistic religions -- interestingly Islam being one of them -- encourages a form of 'investigation' but inevitably this is built on a fabric that must be non-falsifiable in order to hold together. Apologists of Islam tout that it ushered in the scientific method, frequently citing phrases like '...evidence for thinking men' (paraphrased). Nevertheless, the premise of such phrases tacitly indicates non-falsifiability. Again, paraphrasing the Quran: "The trees bear witness to God's greatness, surely a sign for men of thought." What that really says is, "Investigate all you want, but the only available conclusion for thinking men is that God created the trees, thus proving his existence and that he is the author of this book"

Other monotheistic religions actively discourage investigation and thought, and have a history of stifling such endeavors. The rationales for this are many, as history has shown.

Buddhism, on the other hand, seems much more consistent with falsification, thus making it inherantly more amenable to and compatible with science. Even the Dalai Lama himself has stated such a position. For me, this has peaked my interest in Buddhism, as rational, logical, scientific thought processes is a must for me. Compared to the monotheistic religions to which I have been exposed, Buddhism is far more cerebral and intellectual. Editorialization aside, it seems perfectly consistent that we can discuss, scientifically, the concepts put forth by Buddhism.

igiveup · Joined: 13 Feb 2003 Posts: 169 Location: eastern us

okay since asking for a definition of karma (kamma) and reincarnation is too much to ask for and we've already gone off topic (monotheism, parallel universes, personal insults, etc), i'll provide one from a london based therevada buddhist website:
http://www.londonbuddhistvihara.co.uk/
you can check the "about us" link for more background info on them, just in case your not happy with the definitions provided.
kamma(karma):
http://www.londonbuddhistvihara.co.uk/qa_kamma.htm

jihadjay · Joined: 27 Nov 2002 Posts: 1079 Location: JAPAN - Kansai

ARI and other BUDDHISTS or people who support the notion of Buddhism and reincarnation, you are mocking yourself.

You can never prove that science validates REINCARNATION or THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT.

Enjoy "your fools paradise of 10,000 lives, and you think that science can validate this, get real."

MULLAH MO - Lifting weights and making a cup of tea is not scientific formula for REINCARNATION. Laughing

Jesus came back once (can't be proved by science) but ARI and other BUDDHISTS who have a nerve to mention "intellectualism" come back 1,000 times, 2,000 times or maybe 10,000 times - and this is called "intellectualism!!!"

Yes, really.

Oh, the Buddhist ponders, I am poor, oh I must have been bad in my past life, or past 10,000 lives! Wink

Oh, the Buddhist ponders, I was born with bad karma and punished by a non-entity God who somewho judges my past karma and lives - and this is why I am so ill and in bad health. Wink

Oh, the Buddhist ponders, I wonder if I can remember the Ice Age, or maybe the stoneage, or maybe the French Revolution - for I know that in my past lives that I was reincarnated.

TIBETAN SCIENCE - collect hundreds of babies, give them toys and things that were special to a past Lama, then see if baby likes the same - if so, yes, got it, he came back again!!!!!! ha-ha - BUDDHIST SCIENCE, now that is funny!!! Laughing

And they still do this today, and PERRO GRANDE thinks that you can debate this ridiculous thread from a scientific angle, no, no, no, no, you can't!!!

If this theory could be proved then everyone would be jumping for joy for we would not fear being dust.

GET REAL - The Buddha died, Mohammed died, Jesus died. Yes, Christians believe that Jesus came back - but no one can prove scientifically that any of them did.

Nor can any one prove that Buddha had lived before his so-called enlightenment.

I will die, ARI will die, PERRO will did, we all will die - and no science will prove that we keep on zooming back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

I thought Islamic and Christian radicals were dangerous - but hey, they have nothing on ARI, PERRO and others who think that reincarnation is scientific.

Get real - "religion is based on faith" and don't give us the Buddhist cop-out - if Buddhists believe in reincarnation which can not be proved like the Day of Judgement - then this is based on "their faith."

All religious people who claim they have science on their side are liars, all atheists who state that they can prove via science that reincarnation or the Day of Judgement can be validated are liars!

THIS THREAD MERELY PROVES THAT PEOPLE STILL BELONG TO THE SUPERSTITIOUS DARK AGES.

My 5 year old son is more enlightened than people like ARI in this thread.

Wait a minute, my nearly 7 week old daughter could contribute to this thread, because Ruth Himika can't speak - and this in itself is more valid than ARI or PERRO GRANDE in this thread.

Respect to my three children!!! Wink

_________________
In support of Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, and other minorities in India.

LONG LIVE CHRISTIAN NAGALAND - AND OPEN YOUR EYES TO RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION IN BUDDHIST COUNTRIES.

Perro Grande · Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 198

My goodness, Jihadjay! So much venom, and so little space...

I am certainly not one to ascribe to dark-ages mentality. Besides my indictment of Abrahamic monotheist religions, the crux of my statement was either missed or poorly worded. If my wording left something to be desired, I apologize.

To summarize:

1) Buddhism is open to falsification. The fact that it is does not disqualify it from scientific discussion. There is a big difference between that statement and saying that Buddhism is scientific.

2) Buddhism is cerebral and intellectual. While this does not make it better or worse, per se, it makes it more interesting to me.

3) I am open to discussion and evaluation of evidence that might support certain Buddhist notions, and I believe we can do so in a manner consistent with science. I don't believe I ever took a stance on the subject of re-birth/reincarnation, and have reached no conclusions about such. Your virulent indictment of me for this was baseless.

4) I do not claim to be a Buddhist. I find it interesting, however, and refreshingly different. Thus, I plan to learn more about it.

Hope that clarifies my previous post.

*****

We do need to establish a baseline definition. This will be hard to do since not all Buddhists conform to the same ideas. For purposes of debate, I'm generally okay with the definition posted earlier. Perhaps Ari or others could suggest improvements, though.

Cheers!

jihadjay · Joined: 27 Nov 2002 Posts: 1079 Location: JAPAN - Kansai

PERRO - I apologise for any misunderstanding, but reincarnation and "intellectualism" does not "wash" with me.

This is TIBETAN BUDDHISM, the darkest of all faiths, and the most superstitious religion in the world. Paganism is more enlightened than Tibetan Buddhism. Hey, my nearly 7 week old daughter is more enlightened than this link:

http://www.fpmt.org/teachers/osel/search.asp

Note out of 1 chance in 6 Billion this Lama found his former GURU - of course ARI will state that this is great BUDDHIST ENLIGHTENMENT

To 99.9% of the world, it is not just stupid, it is beyond reason and any knowledge or wisdom.

TIBET was so poor and enslaved by these same superstitious Buddhists in TIBET. Laughing

_________________
In support of Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, and other minorities in India.

LONG LIVE CHRISTIAN NAGALAND - AND OPEN YOUR EYES TO RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION IN BUDDHIST COUNTRIES.

Ari · Joined: 27 Aug 2002 Posts: 976 Location: New York

Ari · Joined: 27 Aug 2002 Posts: 976 Location: New York

jihadjay · Joined: 27 Nov 2002 Posts: 1079 Location: JAPAN - Kansai

ARI still thinks that science validates 1,000 reincarnations, yes, ARI the enlightened one really thinks this; so what does that tell you about ARI? Laughing

ARI - have you visited your local Tibetan soothsayer today? If so, and given that Tibetan Buddhists can find one baby out of 6 billion - then can you tell them to give me the winning numbers of the national lottery!

ARI - why aren't you giving me your patent? Oh, on second thoughts, not such a good idea, for I have just read about Tibetan science; and I think it would be hard to patent this.

Hey, but maybe the Tibetans will buy it, you know, for the LAMAS are a bit "on the dumb" side with regards to reality.

Laughing

_________________
In support of Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, and other minorities in India.

LONG LIVE CHRISTIAN NAGALAND - AND OPEN YOUR EYES TO RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION IN BUDDHIST COUNTRIES.

Ari · Joined: 27 Aug 2002 Posts: 976 Location: New York

igiveup · Joined: 13 Feb 2003 Posts: 169 Location: eastern us

so we're not having this discussion? instead of attacking each other we could have been having a thought provoking chat. the hindu and christian forums have been overrun with petty threads. this could have been different but oh well, have a nice life people.

Perro Grande · Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 198

I hope we're going to have the discussion! This is a topic that is of great interest to me. I'm currently in the process of doing some independent research in an attempt to gather material for presentation here...

I'm still up for this topic if everyone else is!

Cheers