 |
Faith Freedom International
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
TruthSpeaker
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 203
|
 Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:51 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Ari wrote: | | TruthSpeaker wrote: | Gee, I knew the brown ass commies of India were on the payroll of the KGB and the PRC spooks but a former christian, a former communist, and now a rationalist who is singing praises of the the destruction of Tibetean Culture at the hands of the chinese ???
What the human brain is capable of? Any bets that the next conversion of "igiveup" is going to be a wahhabi? (That ofcourse will depend on the job offer from the oil company in Jeddah.)
 |
Is igiveup really an Indian Christian masquerading as an American, giving a bad name to Americans?
Ari |
He sure is and a rabid christian at that. His latest incarnation as a humanist does not fit him well.
_________________
- The only religion, is the religion of truth. Without truth there can be no reason. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
igiveup
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 169
Location: eastern us
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:54 am Post subject: ---- |
|
|
| Quote: | You know what it means deep down vis a vis officially? Here, I help you a bit....
Still doubt his affinity for Buddhism?
The fact that he thought so was proven enough of his Buddhistic leaning, don't you think so? Officially Buddhists or not, anyone is Buddhist enough if he appreciates the teachings of the Buddha. And Buddhism isn't a religion of worship, so conversion isn't really an issue. Get it? |
again with the double standards anyone who appreciates the teachings of the buddha is "buddhist enough" but jews, christians, muslims, hindu, and sikhs have to believe and follow 100% of the beliefs of their religions or ideologies to qualify as members of their respected faiths???? 
| Quote: | | Alright he was a scientist who bought crap from the Bible. It was 200-300 years ago. Big deal. Find one great scientist now who believes in mumbo-jumbo in the Bible literally. |
there you go again.
| Quote: | | And you are confusing me, first you said he didn't believe in the trinity like other fundies then you said he bought the mumbo-jumbo of the Bible. |
see where stupidity gets you, nowhere in the bible is the trinity stated. some theologians developed the idea decades after the material was written and it was accepted by some christians and denied by others!
| Quote: | | I'll read it. So what? As I said he would have had a lot to reconcile had he been alive now with all the earth-shattering findings in quantum physics that defied altogether the mechanistic view of the universe that he professed!!! |
what gift of "prophecy" you seem to have, being able to predict what people who are long dead would have done or how they really felt deep down (despite their own words and actions). 
| Quote: | | Well, it does make a difference if someone calls himself a Christian but doesn't believe in the only-way-to-salvation claim. There are Catholics who adhere to pluralistic theology like this, I know it. So what do you make of them? |
every religion on the planet, no matter how dogmatic, has many hundreds (some even thousands) of cults, sub-cults, and individuals who have slightly different interpretations of core doctirnes. what are we to make of them? what is your point?
| Quote: | | Pea brain, you don't even answer my challenge to define scientific proof of rebirth. Out of desperation you are just talking out of your ass about "scientifically sound" proof, while you don't have a clue what it entalis. You are damn hilarious, dude |
and you are a raving idiot, go to any respected scientist (not some internet lunatic, remember islam has an army of scientist that claim how the koran is not at odds with science) ask them what they think of reincarnation (when they're through laughing come back and report your findings).
| Quote: | | Haha...caught in the act lying! What do you mean you know what was going on in Tibet??? Your agenda is to tar the whole society with one brush. You are not concerned about the balanced view of Tibet, something I am interested in. We have established that it wasn't perfect, but it was BY NO MEANS AS DEGENERATE AS YOU WOULD LIKE US TO BELIEVE IT WAS. I have presented Prof. Thurman's refutation. He lived in Tibet in the 50's as a monk himself. Did you live in Tibet in the 50's? Do you even know where Tibet is, o dear silly hillbilly? How can you know more than he does? |
this is your buddhist fundi mentality at work again. you keep mentioning balanced view and yet fail to apply your own standards to other faiths, individuals, and evidence. wow prof. thurman (uma thurmans' father no less!), stop the presses everyone. he's a goddamned buddhist that adores the dalai lama and everything tibet, if that doesn't make him pro-tibet, then what does? how is anything that he has to say relevant when you laughed at accusations presented by jihadjay as irrelevant because it was coming from a communist source (pro-communist). pro-tibetan sources are valid, while pro-communist sources are not valid (because they're bias?). again with the double standards.
| Quote: | | Reformed Christianity only means Christianity minus its fangs! Theology-wise, it is the same old thing. Monotheism is bashable, let's face it. It is inherently intolerant, why do I have to speak lovingly about any intolerant ideology that claims sole custody of truth and bastardises others who don't buy that preposterous dogmas??? If Buddhism was no difference to monotheism I would vehemently bash it just the same. Happy now? And if you care to read the piece I presented you would see that in fact THE TIBETANS INDEED DIDN'T NEED THE COMMUNIST CHINA TO REFORM THEIR OWN SOCIETY. THEY HAVE DONE IT THEMSELVES FOR MILLENIA FROM A MILITARISTIC EMPIRE TO A MONASTIC DEMILITARIZED SOCIETY. It's even better than I thought!!! Be fair, pea brain. Read what I presented. Even capital punishment was banned in late 1800 in Tibet!!! |
they went from a militaristic society to a loving monastic society that practiced serfdom, amputations, and torture. they've really come a long way!
| Quote: | | Gee, so you have conversed with all humanists in the world, haven't you? And these humanists even organise themselves in a religion called humanism that its members regularly convene and refute various religious doctrines, right? You are not making any sense at all. I am a humanist, what makes you think I am less humanistic than you??? And please, stop worrying yourself with reincarnation, even Buddhists are not required to believe in it. It's not that it's being shoved down people's throats. It's a moot point. Treat it as a hypothesis if you wish. Open-minded, intellectual people won't straight away dismiss it without even trying to understand the underlying philosophy. You can believe in one birth, why is it so strange with many births? You were conditioned to believe heaven and hell after you die, so you find it hard to swallow another alternative. It is your conditioning that is to blame. |
even the founder of buddhism believed in reincarnation and karma, that's kind of the whole point of the freakin religion!
you believe conditioning is to blame for my inability to accept reincarnation as valid? think how stupid this idea sounds from a scientific point of view: knowing what we know of evolution, how can reincarnation make sense. to dumb it down: scientists now believe life came to the planet as a result of the building blocks of biological matter deposited here by meteors. overtime this developed into bacteria, and from there more complex lifeforms evolved over hundreds of millions of years. how the hell do you explain reincarnation in this context. what noble truths did mindless bateria follow that allowed it to be reborn into a higher organism in it's future life?
| Quote: | | Exporting the most sophisticated philosophy of liberation/inner technology to the West? You are indeed shamefully ethnocentric, enforcing the stereotype of Americans who never cross out their state borders, you feel the need to comparing America with an oppressed people who are being persecuted and banned in their own land! Anyone with a meager amount of decency would laugh at your face for your naivete slash bigotry. Shame...shame...shame on you!!! |
it seems the most sophisticated philosophy of liberation/inner technology was able to enlighten everyone in the west and not the abused surfs and corrupt monks.
| Quote: | | Imagine this for a second. A westerner traveled in Tibet in the 50's. He saw something totally different to his western civilisation. Different ways of doing things, different religion, different philosophy of life, different livelihood, different everything! Then through his western glasses he witnessed a few brutality inflicted upon some peasants by landlords and some corrupt lamas. He didnt' even speak the language, so communications were subject to distortion, omission and speculation. Then he wrote the experience into a book, some decades later a so-called unbiased writer quoted the book here and there to support his point. The book itself talks about a lot of other things, many of them, no doubt were marvelous about these people and society, yet since they didn't support his point, they were not touched at all. Get some visual aid now, dear? |
yeah and modern writers have it all wrong about other despotic and theocratic societies in the past! these men (and some women) were travelers or journalists. they were used to encountering different cultures. from that swans article:
Dr. A. L. Waddell 1895
Perceval Landon 1904
Captain W.F.T. O'Connor ~1904
Spencer Chapman 1937
Anna Louise Strong ~1957-1959
i guess all these people who were non-communist and non-missionaries all had axes to grind?
| Quote: | Yeah I have seen that one. It is together with that article, isn't it? So there you go. There are two sides of the same coint. You have that side, I have the other. ....
Yeah, also from that piece . Read another peasant's story on my piece. See from both sides. He was treated bad by bad lamas. There were many good lamas who treated peasants well as well. Why do you still don't get this simple fact? I can list you the bad things that American governments have done to its citizens, but what does this prove other than the imperfection of human endeavor? |
double standards again. this is getting tiring ari. apparently anytime a buddhist does something monstrous it's imperfect human nature. and it seems that these happy tibetans are willing to put up with a lot of shit from their clergy (like some catholics) and still come back for more:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/july99/tibet16.htm
| Quote: | | Tsering's autobiography, published in the United States, tells the story of a man who performed as a dancer in the court of the Dalai Lama, was the unwilling lover of an elderly monk, a small time government functionary in Lhasa before leaving Tibet in the 1950s to become a graduate student at the University of Washington. |
| Quote: | | Not necessarily!! Gee, karma can be instant, can take a few lives to bear fruits. Don't tell me what Buddhism is |
or there is a third option: karma can be total BS.
| Quote: | | Read the article I posted before on death, karma and rebirth! You can tell me why it isn't scientific there. And compare to the fairy-tale of monotheism that after you die, you will be screened by angels in the gate of heaven. Now that is funny.... I have outgrown that tale since my pre-pubescent years, why haven't you and your ilk? |
see above objection. then if you like i can point you to some islamic apologist websites with quotes from "luminaries" like karen armstrong that state islam is peace and the koran is very scientifically sound.
| Quote: | | You can't even refute the article on death and rebirth and the proof of karma by German Scientists, o "rational" hillbilly who has never crossed out his state borders!!! |
again see above objection. and you seem to be a buddhist apologist that's determined to make this a 13+ page thread by arguing in circles
| Quote: | | Is igiveup really an Indian Christian masquerading as an American, giving a bad name to Americans |
no i'm really a chinese communist spy sent here to make trouble for the poor tibetan buddhists
| Quote: | | He sure is and a rabid christian at that. His latest incarnation as a humanist does not fit him well. |
and you know full well the definition of rabid eh "truthspeaker". all irrelevant posts with nothing but personal attacks: mullah, true believer, etc.. and baseless speculation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TruthSpeaker
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 203
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
You are a good demonstration for rabid, mullah igiveup.
According to this christian mullah, Chinese are so much more humane than the poor tibeteans. Sure Sure.
_________________
- The only religion, is the religion of truth. Without truth there can be no reason. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ari
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 976
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: ---- |
|
|
Igiveup you are a sad case, what's so humanistic about your fanaticism of insisting on bastardising a whole society? You are just an unenlightened Christian jihadi, masquerading as a humanist to give Christianity more credibility.
| Quote: | | Quote: | You know what it means deep down vis a vis officially? Here, I help you a bit....
Still doubt his affinity for Buddhism?
The fact that he thought so was proven enough of his Buddhistic leaning, don't you think so? Officially Buddhists or not, anyone is Buddhist enough if he appreciates the teachings of the Buddha. And Buddhism isn't a religion of worship, so conversion isn't really an issue. Get it? |
again with the double standards anyone who appreciates the teachings of the buddha is "buddhist enough" but jews, christians, muslims, hindu, and sikhs have to believe and follow 100% of the beliefs of their religions or ideologies to qualify as members of their respected faiths???? |
Well because Buddhism DOESN'T DEMAND anyone to convert to it to practice it!!! Can you somehow get this into your thick skull??? Buddhism wasn't a religion when the Buddha taught it. It isn't mean to be treated like a religion, the way you Christians/Muslims understand religion. Conversion doesn't guarantee salvation. Worship doesn't. Belief doesn't, in fact it is a hindrance. Only complete understanding of self and the nature of things do. Do you call this religion like monotheism? How many millions people in the West who learn and practice Buddhism don't call themselves one or never converted to it? Does it matter? NO. What matters is what they do, not what they call themselves. With Christianity or Islam it's different. If a so-called scientist praises it to be scientific, to be truth, then it raises suspicion why he hasn't converted yet because the totalitarian nature of this religion defines anyone who praises it to be in the same league with it in terms of belief of absolute allegiance. It's a contradiction if a non-Muslim calls Islam the truth but refusing to convert to it since Islam demands anyone to be Muslim to be saved, so if this is truth according to him, then he will also buy that dogma, then he will follow it. Get the drift? I don't expect you to understand due to your hypocrisy and fanaticism, this is education for others.
| Quote: | | see where stupidity gets you, nowhere in the bible is the trinity stated. some theologians developed the idea decades after the material was written and it was accepted by some christians and denied by others! |
Yeah whatever, mainstream Christianity is into this trinity, ok. They will claim it is in the Bible, implicitly.
| Quote: | | what gift of "prophecy" you seem to have, being able to predict what people who are long dead would have done or how they really felt deep down (despite their own words and actions). |
Well, he was a scientist, was he not? If now it is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt his theory is for very limited application, do you think it won't make him think? You don't think, I can understand and see that, but him?
| Quote: | | every religion on the planet, no matter how dogmatic, has many hundreds (some even thousands) of cults, sub-cults, and individuals who have slightly different interpretations of core doctirnes. what are we to make of them? what is your point? |
My point is, dummy, I can buy if someone like that (still calling him a Christian but don't buy most mainstream christian doctrines) become a great scientist. Bible-thumping Christians who buy all the myths in the Bible after now it has been proven that universe wasn't created 6000 years ago? NO. It's an oxymoron. Isaac Newton was from a different era. Find a a real great scientist now who is a Bible thumping Christian!
| Quote: | | Quote: |
Pea brain, you don't even answer my challenge to define scientific proof of rebirth. Out of desperation you are just talking out of your ass about "scientifically sound" proof, while you don't have a clue what it entalis. You are damn hilarious, dude |
and you are a raving idiot, go to any respected scientist (not some internet lunatic, remember islam has an army of scientist that claim how the koran is not at odds with science) ask them what they think of reincarnation (when they're through laughing come back and report your findings). |
Haha, you consider Harvard/MIT scientists are not respected anyway when it doesn't support your agenda!!! Who cares who you think as respected scientists, you won't know it when you meet one anyway. You are too closed-minded to be talking about science, my man. Scientific minds are those who don't accept nor completely reject something in the absence of sufficient evidence, esp. when the underlying theory is solid, consistent and sophisticated enough. There are a lot of other scientific theories that are in this status until further findings, this is in light of science's obvious limitations. Ever heard of the Paralel Universes Theory? For your limited Christian fundie mind, it's surely irrational, but science deems it plausible, even though not confirmed. You, otoh, have decided rebirth is false no matter what, and can't even come up with criteria what scientific evidence of rebirth entails!! How hilarious.
See here compelling cases of rebirth as researched and documented by Dr. Ian Setevenson, a Canadian-born psychiatrist and member of the faculty of the University of Virginia, and the leading authority in the scientific world with regard to reincarnation research.
http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=ian+stevenson+past+live+research+center&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
Now tell me that Ian Stevenson is not a respected scientist! You think by saying scientific or science every other paragraph will make you sound credible! Poor you. They say, you can take a cave man out of his cave, but not the cave out of him. A cave man knows how to spell scientific doesn't make him so.
| Quote: | | this is your buddhist fundi mentality at work again. you keep mentioning balanced view and yet fail to apply your own standards to other faiths, individuals, and evidence. wow prof. thurman (uma thurmans' father no less!), stop the presses everyone. he's a goddamned buddhist that adores the dalai lama and everything tibet, if that doesn't make him pro-tibet, then what does? how is anything that he has to say relevant when you laughed at accusations presented by jihadjay as irrelevant because it was coming from a communist source (pro-communist). pro-tibetan sources are valid, while pro-communist sources are not valid (because they're bias?). again with the double standards. |
So you assume Thurman, an intellect, doens't have an independent mind that he will just blindly defend anything about Buddhism/the Dalai Lama even though it's against his conscience and what he deems decent and moral? Do you know him personally? Jihadjay and you, otoh, are not known for your balanced views. You have an agenda of proving that Buddhism is just as bad as Christianity, which everyone knows it's ridiculous. Look at your posts! Christians oddly have had this animosity, competition and jealousy against Buddhism for ages for no apparent reasons, while Buddhism never says anything bad about other religions and Buddhists have been very tolerant to Christian missionary. So they have come up with propaganda to smear Buddhism and Buddhists. What are you frightened about? If Christianity is perfect and the truth, why do you need to undermine Buddhism? Won't it shine on its own merit??? Are you not just being haunted by your own shadow here? And now to further your stinking agenda, you are stooping so low as to defend an invader, an oppressor and a butcher of a rich culture and wonderful people who doesn't do anyone any harm.  You refuse to entertain the possibility that all the allegations about slavery, serfs, etc is a very distorted exaggeration. Thurman himself said it wasn't perfect, so what else do you want? You expect Tibet to be totally without crime for you to appreciate it? What basis do you lie this unrealistic and unfair expectation on? You are such a lowlife.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Reformed Christianity only means Christianity minus its fangs! Theology-wise, it is the same old thing. Monotheism is bashable, let's face it. It is inherently intolerant, why do I have to speak lovingly about any intolerant ideology that claims sole custody of truth and bastardises others who don't buy that preposterous dogmas??? If Buddhism was no difference to monotheism I would vehemently bash it just the same. Happy now? And if you care to read the piece I presented you would see that in fact THE TIBETANS INDEED DIDN'T NEED THE COMMUNIST CHINA TO REFORM THEIR OWN SOCIETY. THEY HAVE DONE IT THEMSELVES FOR MILLENIA FROM A MILITARISTIC EMPIRE TO A MONASTIC DEMILITARIZED SOCIETY. It's even better than I thought!!! Be fair, pea brain. Read what I presented. Even capital punishment was banned in late 1800 in Tibet!!! |
they went from a militaristic society to a loving monastic society that practiced serfdom, amputations, and torture. they've really come a long way! |
Yeah hopelessly thick skull. What else can I say?
| Quote: | | even the founder of buddhism believed in reincarnation and karma, that's kind of the whole point of the freakin religion! |
Yeah, even German scientists say karma works, dickhead! Dr. Ian Stevenson has evidence of rebirth. This freakin religion has legions of scientists behind it, you like it or not. Grow up and deal with it. Christianity/monotheism is a primitive religion, destined for those not-so-developed.
| Quote: | | you believe conditioning is to blame for my inability to accept reincarnation as valid? think how stupid this idea sounds from a scientific point of view: knowing what we know of evolution, how can reincarnation make sense. to dumb it down: scientists now believe life came to the planet as a result of the building blocks of biological matter deposited here by meteors. overtime this developed into bacteria, and from there more complex lifeforms evolved over hundreds of millions of years. how the hell do you explain reincarnation in this context. what noble truths did mindless bateria follow that allowed it to be reborn into a higher organism in it's future life? |
Buddhism posit that this universe consists of an infinite series of creation and destruction, hence death and birth is an endless cycle (with no fixed soul behind it, that's why it's called rebirth). Energy can't be created nor can be destroyed. In that infinity anything is possible. How can this be against science??
| Quote: | | it seems the most sophisticated philosophy of liberation/inner technology was able to enlighten everyone in the west and not the abused surfs and corrupt monks. |
They didn't practice it, plain and simple. Human nature. Any more question?  There are many, many more lamas who are not like the article depicted. Why do you discount this?
| Quote: | yeah and modern writers have it all wrong about other despotic and theocratic societies in the past! these men (and some women) were travelers or journalists. they were used to encountering different cultures. from that swans article:
Dr. A. L. Waddell 1895
Perceval Landon 1904
Captain W.F.T. O'Connor ~1904
Spencer Chapman 1937
Anna Louise Strong ~1957-1959
i guess all these people who were non-communist and non-missionaries all had axes to grind? |
Read the books first, then come up with a sweeping generalisation. Do you even know what the books talk about in its entirety? Dumbo, read my lips: TIBET WASN'T PERFECT AS NO SOCIETY IS BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S TOTALLY BAD EITHER. You have a problem with that assertion? What do you want, o Christian mullah? You want the whole world support the oppresor and extinguish a culture/people from the face of the earth so you can enter the land and hardsell your primitive religion easily????
| Quote: | | Quote: |
Yeah I have seen that one. It is together with that article, isn't it? So there you go. There are two sides of the same coint. You have that side, I have the other. ....
Yeah, also from that piece . Read another peasant's story on my piece. See from both sides. He was treated bad by bad lamas. There were many good lamas who treated peasants well as well. Why do you still don't get this simple fact? I can list you the bad things that American governments have done to its citizens, but what does this prove other than the imperfection of human endeavor? |
double standards again. this is getting tiring ari. apparently anytime a buddhist does something monstrous it's imperfect human nature. and it seems that these happy tibetans are willing to put up with a lot of shit from their clergy (like some catholics) and still come back for more: |
It's not double standard. It's common decency. It's moral. You refuse to acknowledge anything good coming from Tibet like Muslims refusing to see anything good coming from America!!! Do you realise how much a fanatic you are??? Even I can see and acknowledge that there are many good human beings who are Muslims or Christians, though I think their religions suck for obvious reasons I repeatedly stated.
| Quote: |
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/july99/tibet16.htm
Quote:
Tsering's autobiography, published in the United States, tells the story of a man who performed as a dancer in the court of the Dalai Lama, was the unwilling lover of an elderly monk, a small time government functionary in Lhasa before leaving Tibet in the 1950s to become a graduate student at the University of Washington. |
So fucking what???? Do you want to list every violation of Buddhist precepts conducted by monks? What does this prove???
| Quote: | | Quote: |
Not necessarily!! Gee, karma can be instant, can take a few lives to bear fruits. Don't tell me what Buddhism is |
or there is a third option: karma can be total BS. |
Not according to German Scientists. Are you a scientist? Or just a plain mindless Christian mullah? 
| Quote: | | Quote: | Read the article I posted before on death, karma and rebirth! You can tell me why it isn't scientific there. And compare to the fairy-tale of monotheism that after you die, you will be screened by angels in the gate of heaven. Now that is funny.... I have outgrown that tale since my pre-pubescent years, why haven't you and your ilk?
|
see above objection. then if you like i can point you to some islamic apologist websites with quotes from "luminaries" like karen armstrong that state islam is peace and the koran is very scientifically sound. |
Read above.
| Quote: | | Quote: |
You can't even refute the article on death and rebirth and the proof of karma by German Scientists, o "rational" hillbilly who has never crossed out his state borders!!! |
again see above objection. and you seem to be a buddhist apologist that's determined to make this a 13+ page thread by arguing in circles |
Because of some dumb, fanatic Christian mullah masquerading as a humanist. I don't have to apologise for Buddhism, there is nothing to apologise for.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Is igiveup really an Indian Christian masquerading as an American, giving a bad name to Americans |
no i'm really a chinese communist spy sent here to make trouble for the poor tibetan buddhists |
I won't be suprised if you are.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | He sure is and a rabid christian at that. His latest incarnation as a humanist does not fit him well. |
and you know full well the definition of rabid eh "truthspeaker". all irrelevant posts with nothing but personal attacks: mullah, true believer, etc.. and baseless speculation. |
You are a rabid, mindless, bigoted Christian apologist. Live with it.
Ari
_________________
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." -Einstein
Last edited by Ari on Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
igiveup
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 169
Location: eastern us
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:27 pm Post subject: ----- |
|
|
| Quote: | | Igiveup you are a sad case, what's so humanistic about your fanaticism of insisting on bastardising a whole society? You are just an unenlightened Christian jihadi, masquerading as a humanist to give Christianity more credibility. |
and yet when you attack entire peoples and belief systems willy nilly, it's not bastardising whole societies?
| Quote: | | Well because Buddhism DOESN'T DEMAND anyone to convert to it to practice it!!! Can you somehow get this into your thick skull??? Buddhism wasn't a religion when the Buddha taught it. It isn't mean to be treated like a religion, the way you Christians/Muslims understand religion. Conversion doesn't guarantee salvation. Worship doesn't. Belief doesn't, in fact it is a hindrance. Only complete understanding of self and the nature of things do. Do you call this religion like monotheism? How many millions people in the West who learn and practice Buddhism don't call themselves one or never converted to it? Does it matter? NO. What matters is what they do, not what they call themselves. With Christianity or Islam it's different. If a so-called scientist praises it to be scientific, to be truth, then it raises suspicion why he hasn't converted yet because the totalitarian nature of this religion defines anyone who praises it to be in the same league with it in terms of belief of absolute allegiance. It's a contradiction if a non-Muslim calls Islam the truth but refusing to convert to it since Islam demands anyone to be Muslim to be saved, so if this is truth according to him, then he will also buy that dogma, then he will follow it. Get the drift? I don't expect you to understand due to your hypocrisy and fanaticism, this is education for others. |
wow with such a fast and loose definition of who is and who isn't a buddhist there must be billions of buddhists world wide!
do inanimate objects count too?
| Quote: | | Yeah whatever, mainstream Christianity is into this trinity, ok. They will claim it is in the Bible, implicitly. |
ever heard of arians and unitarians ("mainstream"), and chrisitan sub-cults called mormons and jehovah's witnesses who DON'T believe in a trinity?
| Quote: | | Haha, you consider Harvard/MIT scientists are not respected anyway when it doesn't support your agenda!!! Who cares who you think as respected scientists, you won't know it when you meet one anyway. You are too closed-minded to be talking about science, my man. Scientific minds are those who don't accept nor completely reject something in the absence of sufficient evidence, esp. when the underlying theory is solid, consistent and sophisticated enough. There are a lot of other scientific theories that are in this status until further findings, this is in light of science's obvious limitations. Ever heard of the Paralel Universes Theory? For your limited Christian fundie mind, it's surely irrational, but science deems it plausible, even though not confirmed. You, otoh, have decided rebirth is false no matter what, and can't even come up with criteria what scientific evidence of rebirth entails!! How hilarious |
those harvard and mit scientists were studying the effects of meditation on the mind (not the truth or falsehood of karma and rebirth). and here's some more interesting info on how trivial the research is:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2078486/
| Quote: | | The major vehicle for achieving enlightenment is meditation, touted by both Buddhists and alternative-medicine gurus as a potent way to calm and comprehend our minds. The trouble is, decades of research have shown meditation's effects to be highly unreliable, as James Austin, a neurologist and Zen Buddhist, points out in Zen and Brain. Yes, it can reduce stress, but, as it turns out, no more so than simply sitting still does. Meditation can even exacerbate depression, anxiety, and other negative emotions in certain people. |
maybe this explains your present mental state
| Quote: | See here compelling cases of rebirth as researched and documented by Dr. Ian Setevenson, a Canadian-born psychiatrist and member of the faculty of the University of Virginia, and the leading authority in the scientific world with regard to reincarnation research.
http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=ian+stevenson+past+live+research+center&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
Now tell me that Ian Stevenson is not a respected scientist! You think by saying scientific or science every other paragraph will make you sound credible! Poor you. They say, you can take a cave man out of his cave, but not the cave out of him. A cave man knows how to spell scientific doesn't make him so. |
leading authority in regards to reincarnation research??? we should get him together with the scientists who vouch for the koran and we can have ourselves a little junk science party.
| Quote: | | So you assume Thurman, an intellect, doens't have an independent mind that he will just blindly defend anything about Buddhism/the Dalai Lama even though it's against his conscience and what he deems decent and moral? Do you know him personally? Jihadjay and you, otoh, are not known for your balanced views. You have an agenda of proving that Buddhism is just as bad as Christianity, which everyone knows it's ridiculous. Look at your posts! Christians oddly have had this animosity, competition and jealousy against Buddhism for ages for no apparent reasons, while Buddhism never says anything bad about other religions and Buddhists have been very tolerant to Christian missionary. So they have come up with propaganda to smear Buddhism and Buddhists. What are you frightened about? If Christianity is perfect and the truth, why do you need to undermine Buddhism? Won't it shine on its own merit??? Are you not just being haunted by your own shadow here? And now to further your stinking agenda, you are stooping so low as to defend an invader, an oppressor and a butcher of a rich culture and wonderful people who doesn't do anyone any harm. You refuse to entertain the possibility that all the allegations about slavery, serfs, etc is a very distorted exaggeration. Thurman himself said it wasn't perfect, so what else do you want? You expect Tibet to be totally without crime for you to appreciate it? What basis do you lie this unrealistic and unfair expectation on? You are such a lowlife. |
so communist eyewitnesses and others can't be independant minded? do YOU know them? what christian came up with this "propaganda"? you sound like a parnoid fundementalist. it was from a humanist website quoting eyewitness accounts from people of various backgrounds and times.
even tibetans that were alive before the chinese invasion do not wish to return to lamaist tibet!
| Quote: | | Yeah, even German scientists say karma works, dickhead! Dr. Ian Stevenson has evidence of rebirth. This freakin religion has legions of scientists behind it, you like it or not. Grow up and deal with it. Christianity/monotheism is a primitive religion, destined for those not-so-developed. |
does rebirth and karma only apply to humans? if it's such a universal truth where was it for the billions of years humans weren't in existance. was it working it's mojo on inorganic matter and bacteria. and what happens to karma and rebirth should humans cease to exist like the dinosaurs or ice age mammals? talk about primitive and stupid.
| Quote: | | Read the books first, then come up with a sweeping generalisation. Do you even know what the books talk about in its entirety? Dumbo, read my lips: TIBET WASN'T PERFECT AS NO SOCIETY IS BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S TOTALLY BAD EITHER. You have a problem with that assertion? What do you want, o Christian mullah? You want the whole world support the oppresor and extinguish a culture/people from the face of the earth so you can enter the land and hardsell your primitive religion easily???? |
you're the one in denial how about YOU track down one of those books so you can ease your troubled mind. you want to know how backward and intolerable pre-communist tibet was? here's another example and this is from rational "buddhism" belief system :
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew27051.htm
| Quote: | | To say, with the first of the Fourfold Noble Truths, that "Life is Suffering" is surely to understate the case as far as Tibet is concerned. Life is, in fact, full of terror; it is fraught, not merely with hardships and risks, but with unseen and essentially unknowable forces, malign in their operation, whose propitiation requires all manner of unreasonable sacrifices and incantations.[15] Somewhat similar situations can be found in other countries at other times, but it is, I think, important to note that in Tibet this condition is exaggerated beyond anything found elsewhere, because of the enormous pantheon augmented by the incredibly dense series of lesser demons, spirits, goblins, and so forth, which are associable with all manner of entities, operations, and conditions.[16] The distinction between the "Black Bon" and the "White" is relevant here, the latter including those deities and spirits which are acceptable to Buddhism. In terms of this distinction, entry into the Buddhist sa^ngha provides a shelter from the vicious Bon spirits which infest ordinary life, but it does not mean that all elements of fear and dread are absent, since the skandhas are, of course, still present. It suffices for my purpose to say that, as suffering (du.hkha) characterizes life in the gentler climates of Buddhist existence, terror and frightfulness represent the aspect of life most eminently associable with human existence in Tibet. |
| Quote: | | It's not double standard. It's common decency. It's moral. You refuse to acknowledge anything good coming from Tibet like Muslims refusing to see anything good coming from America!!! Do you realise how much a fanatic you are??? Even I can see and acknowledge that there are many good human beings who are Muslims or Christians, though I think their religions suck for obvious reasons I repeatedly stated. |
that's nice i'm sure there are many million good buddhists around the world. i'm also sure that there are some muslims/christians/hindus/sikhs/etc.. that think your religion "sucks" too. aren't opinions great?
| Quote: | So fucking what???? Do you want to list every violation of Buddhist precepts conducted by monks? What does this prove???
Not according to German Scientists. Are you a scientist? Or just a plain mindless Christian mullah?
Because of some dumb, fanatic Christian mullah masquerading as a humanist. I don't have to apologise for Buddhism, there is nothing to apologise for.
I won't be suprised if you are.
You are a rabid, mindless, bigoted Christian apologist. Live with it. |
after that diatribe you have the nerve to call anyone else rabid? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TruthSpeaker
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 203
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Mullah igiveup says:
| Quote: | | even tibetans that were alive before the chinese invasion do not wish to return to lamaist tibet! |
And how does a brown ass communist convert to a christian mullah know what the tibeteans wish or do not wish? Is the above post of the christian mullah a hold your nose display of KolKutta flatulence?
_________________
- The only religion, is the religion of truth. Without truth there can be no reason. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ari
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 976
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:25 am Post subject: Re: ----- |
|
|
| igiveup wrote: | | Quote: | | Igiveup you are a sad case, what's so humanistic about your fanaticism of insisting on bastardising a whole society? You are just an unenlightened Christian jihadi, masquerading as a humanist to give Christianity more credibility. |
and yet when you attack entire peoples and belief systems willy nilly, it's not bastardising whole societies? |
Where did I ever attack entire peoples? Slander again? Belief systems yes (and I gather you are not here to speak lovingly of Islam yourself, are you?), on a strong, solid ground I think a true humanist would understand (another proof of your dishonesty, you are never really on the side of humanism, more and more you are revealing your true color).
Didn't I say earlier that I even acknowledged there were many good human beings who are Muslims or Christians even though I think their religions suck?
Calm down, and organise your thoughts. Take a deep breath. 
Decide, you are on the side of Christianity that says non-Christians all go to hellfire or humanism that sees all human beings as equal as Buddhism does???
You can't be both you know. Stop deceiving yourself, you ain't no fooling anyone here.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Well because Buddhism DOESN'T DEMAND anyone to convert to it to practice it!!! Can you somehow get this into your thick skull??? Buddhism wasn't a religion when the Buddha taught it. It isn't mean to be treated like a religion, the way you Christians/Muslims understand religion. Conversion doesn't guarantee salvation. Worship doesn't. Belief doesn't, in fact it is a hindrance. Only complete understanding of self and the nature of things do. Do you call this religion like monotheism? How many millions people in the West who learn and practice Buddhism don't call themselves one or never converted to it? Does it matter? NO. What matters is what they do, not what they call themselves. With Christianity or Islam it's different. If a so-called scientist praises it to be scientific, to be truth, then it raises suspicion why he hasn't converted yet because the totalitarian nature of this religion defines anyone who praises it to be in the same league with it in terms of belief of absolute allegiance. It's a contradiction if a non-Muslim calls Islam the truth but refusing to convert to it since Islam demands anyone to be Muslim to be saved, so if this is truth according to him, then he will also buy that dogma, then he will follow it. Get the drift? I don't expect you to understand due to your hypocrisy and fanaticism, this is education for others. |
wow with such a fast and loose definition of who is and who isn't a buddhist there must be billions of buddhists world wide!
do inanimate objects count too? |
Maybe, why does this worry you??? That is what universal truth/religion should be. It should be palatable and acceptable for those who is willing to to reason and be open to inquiries and investigation. You are worried that Christians are losing out more to Buddhism, aren't you?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Yeah whatever, mainstream Christianity is into this trinity, ok. They will claim it is in the Bible, implicitly. |
ever heard of arians and unitarians ("mainstream"), and chrisitan sub-cults called mormons and jehovah's witnesses who DON'T believe in a trinity? |
I don't give a damn of what any half-witted human being who calls himself a Christian wants to believe in, honestly. You miss my point, I acknowledge that there are more developed human beings who call themselves Christian but without adhering to much of the myth of the Bible or the intolerance of mainstream Christianity. Those Christians may be great scientists since they are open-minded enough to have an investigative and inquiring mind. Christians like you and Jihadjay are destined to be not-so-smart because the fact that this version of Christianity (that bastardises all non-Christians) appeals to them is because they are not so intellectually developed.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Haha, you consider Harvard/MIT scientists are not respected anyway when it doesn't support your agenda!!! Who cares who you think as respected scientists, you won't know it when you meet one anyway. You are too closed-minded to be talking about science, my man. Scientific minds are those who don't accept nor completely reject something in the absence of sufficient evidence, esp. when the underlying theory is solid, consistent and sophisticated enough. There are a lot of other scientific theories that are in this status until further findings, this is in light of science's obvious limitations. Ever heard of the Paralel Universes Theory? For your limited Christian fundie mind, it's surely irrational, but science deems it plausible, even though not confirmed. You, otoh, have decided rebirth is false no matter what, and can't even come up with criteria what scientific evidence of rebirth entails!! How hilarious |
those harvard and mit scientists were studying the effects of meditation on the mind (not the truth or falsehood of karma and rebirth). |
Yeah and you called them internet scientists who are in it for the money, remember???? Liar!
And I have shown you other research on both karma and rebirth. Show me any credible research on the day of judgement! Or Christian heaven and hell.
| Quote: | and here's some more interesting info on how trivial the research is:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2078486/
| Quote: | | The major vehicle for achieving enlightenment is meditation, touted by both Buddhists and alternative-medicine gurus as a potent way to calm and comprehend our minds. The trouble is, decades of research have shown meditation's effects to be highly unreliable, as James Austin, a neurologist and Zen Buddhist, points out in Zen and Brain. Yes, it can reduce stress, but, as it turns out, no more so than simply sitting still does. Meditation can even exacerbate depression, anxiety, and other negative emotions in certain people. |
maybe this explains your present mental state |
That would depend on certain factors like expectation, when one meditates one shouldn't expect anything, achieving any target or any goal. This in itself can create disturbances as mentioned above since expectation may not be fulfilled. No one can deny the long-term good effect of meditation. In short terms those negative emotions can happen, and are considered normal, and those, in mindfulness meditation, are object of meditation through which one can better know oneself and overcome their neuroses. There are those who are in the opinion that meditation isn't enough to cure severe mental disorders without accompanied with psychoanalysis or therapy. In those people, meditation perhaps can exacerbate depression, anxiety and negative emotions. If meditation is conducted in the right way, there are very few possibilities of it going wrong. Don't just quote some words out of context.
And I notice you take that quote from your old amo to prove that Buddhism is just as ineffective as Christianity, which I refuted and have never heard anything from you since.
Read this the whole book on the efficacy of meditation according to decades of research by independent scientists:
http://www.noetic.org/ions/medbiblio/index.htm
| Quote: | | Quote: | See here compelling cases of rebirth as researched and documented by Dr. Ian Setevenson, a Canadian-born psychiatrist and member of the faculty of the University of Virginia, and the leading authority in the scientific world with regard to reincarnation research.
http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=ian+stevenson+past+live+research+center&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
Now tell me that Ian Stevenson is not a respected scientist! You think by saying scientific or science every other paragraph will make you sound credible! Poor you. They say, you can take a cave man out of his cave, but not the cave out of him. A cave man knows how to spell scientific doesn't make him so. |
leading authority in regards to reincarnation research??? we should get him together with the scientists who vouch for the koran and we can have ourselves a little junk science party. |
You are a closed-minded, one-liner asshole.  You don't even bother to read his opinions and how he can get to this research. He is a highly trained psychiatrist, it should mean something to you. Your attitude is a typical Christian fundie of the Middle Age who laughed when he was told that the earth was round or that human beings and apes shared common ancestry. For them it was totally out of the question because they were blinded by their own dogmas and prejudices. Later science made it common knowledge that the earth is round and evolution is a reality. Now see yourself in that light re. karma and rebirth. Science may not confirm their truthfulness just yet, but that is a future possibility and researches are underway and are showing promising signs. The same with the Paralel Universes Theory that posit that the universe branches into infinite possible permutations every second, each one of which branches again into infinite possible permutations, and so forth...since time immemorial, which means there are infinite numbers of you and me and everybody else living different lives, going through different histories, doing different things, being different people, making different decisions, having different professions, etc. in these universes (go try to make sense of it through your severely constricted Christian mullah mind ) And you think rebirth doesn't make sense! My, my!
Mullah giveup, you know I have a point. Just give up now, too bad you retracted from your original plan to do just that, because there is no way you can refute my position soundly.
| Quote: | | so communist eyewitnesses and others can't be independant minded? do YOU know them? what christian came up with this "propaganda"? |
Many Christians have done it, it's common knowledge. Christian fundies have serious issues with other religions esp. "pagan" or godless ones, esp. when they are being lauded in their own teritories attracting their own people to their folds. It's the nature of monotheism to be holier than thou and self-righteous. Communists, in this case, have their own interest which may not be in alignment with their subjects'. Communism as an ideology is not known for its balance and tolerance either.
| Quote: | you sound like a parnoid fundementalist. it was from a humanist website quoting eyewitness accounts from people of various backgrounds and times.
even tibetans that were alive before the chinese invasion do not wish to return to lamaist tibet! |
Humanists can be biased too! They are just human beings after all, they have their own prejudices too. And don't tell us what the Tibetans want or don't want, you are going to make me puke.
My objection is when the so-called modern westerners trying to impose their glasses on the world. As I said, no doubt old Tibet was feudalitistic as ANY AGRICULTURAL, TRADITIONAL SOCIETY ON EARTH IS/HAS BEEN. But how bad was it? Which POV are you using? Selling people as commodity and tortures are wrong and might have happened then in Tibet, that I agree, but for anyone to claim this was the norm in Old Tibet, I would doubt that. But if it was about peasants being employed for meager income, yes maybe, since it's still happening in many countries in Asia, as I said there are those servants who have worked for generations for a family, they have no holidays and no definite working hours (they are stand-by 24 hours more or less). In the 21st century western POV, it's slavery plain and simple, but ask these people if this is something out of ordinary and try telling them you are trying to liberate them, they will look at you confused: liberated from what??? Are they happy? Not less so than most people. The problem of materialistic west is not being able to comprehend that traditional, less materially developed societies can be fulfilled in their inner life too, in fact more so than themselves since they lead a much simpler life with much simpler expectations. One must take this into account when assessing a totally foreign culture like Tibet. Overromanticising is just as stupid as totally despising it, which is what you are doing now. You should have some healthy skepticism that a bunch of inhuman savages wouldn't have been able to produce such a marvelous inner technology that is now being studied by these "more civilised, more cultured, modern" people in the West. That they wouldn't have been deemed happier than most people because any psychologist will tell you those with serious moral defects are less prone to be happy and more prone to anger, anxiety, dissatisfaction and depression. That's why I call you embarassingly ethnocentric, an uneducated hillbily who has never been out of his village.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Yeah, even German scientists say karma works, dickhead! Dr. Ian Stevenson has evidence of rebirth. This freakin religion has legions of scientists behind it, you like it or not. Grow up and deal with it. Christianity/monotheism is a primitive religion, destined for those not-so-developed. |
does rebirth and karma only apply to humans? if it's such a universal truth where was it for the billions of years humans weren't in existance. was it working it's mojo on inorganic matter and bacteria. and what happens to karma and rebirth should humans cease to exist like the dinosaurs or ice age mammals? talk about primitive and stupid. |
Karma applies to all sentient beings, so not to inorganic matter, because karma is the law of conducts that require intention. It's subject to debate if amoeba or bacteria are included. Remember the universe is a series of creation and destruction, no beginning no end. Energy can't be created nor can be destroyed. Human beings may cease to exist at one point but consciousness which is a form of energy can't disappear, they must consequently reappear in other creatures. But it's a farfetched hypothesis, the only reason human beings will extinct is when the whole planet or universe is destroyed, which will then be the end of one cycle and the beginning of the next. This surely sounds much more scientific to your ears, no, than the fairy tale of day of judgement or end of the world in which all people are standing in the line in front of the gate of heaven to be screened by winged-angels with big note books in their hands?
| Quote: | you're the one in denial how about YOU track down one of those books so you can ease your troubled mind. you want to know how backward and intolerable pre-communist tibet was? here's another example and this is from rational "buddhism" belief system :
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew27051.htm
| Quote: | | To say, with the first of the Fourfold Noble Truths, that "Life is Suffering" is surely to understate the case as far as Tibet is concerned. Life is, in fact, full of terror; it is fraught, not merely with hardships and risks, but with unseen and essentially unknowable forces, malign in their operation, whose propitiation requires all manner of unreasonable sacrifices and incantations.[15] Somewhat similar situations can be found in other countries at other times, but it is, I think, important to note that in Tibet this condition is exaggerated beyond anything found elsewhere, because of the enormous pantheon augmented by the incredibly dense series of lesser demons, spirits, goblins, and so forth, which are associable with all manner of entities, operations, and conditions.[16] The distinction between the "Black Bon" and the "White" is relevant here, the latter including those deities and spirits which are acceptable to Buddhism. In terms of this distinction, entry into the Buddhist sa^ngha provides a shelter from the vicious Bon spirits which infest ordinary life, but it does not mean that all elements of fear and dread are absent, since the skandhas are, of course, still present. It suffices for my purpose to say that, as suffering (du.hkha) characterizes life in the gentler climates of Buddhist existence, terror and frightfulness represent the aspect of life most eminently associable with human existence in Tibet. |
|
Bozo, what are you trying to show us with that quote precisely? Read the entire article, it's not what you think it is. Don't just hit the first thing form the net that's resembling proof of the badness of Buddhism, you are just making yourself a laughing stock. Better still if you study what it teaches, then ask questions if you don't understand or have an issue with any part of it. That's what decent intellectuals do.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | It's not double standard. It's common decency. It's moral. You refuse to acknowledge anything good coming from Tibet like Muslims refusing to see anything good coming from America!!! Do you realise how much a fanatic you are??? Even I can see and acknowledge that there are many good human beings who are Muslims or Christians, though I think their religions suck for obvious reasons I repeatedly stated. |
that's nice i'm sure there are many million good buddhists around the world. i'm also sure that there are some muslims/christians/hindus/sikhs/etc.. that think your religion "sucks" too. aren't opinions great? |
Go ahead, they can say whatever they want about Buddhism as long as they can reason why. Isn't it the whole issue? Why? Do you have a problem with me calling Christianity anti-humanistic with its dogma that only Christians will be saved? Go show your true color further....you ain't a tad humanistic, who are you trying to fool?
| Quote: | | Quote: | So fucking what???? Do you want to list every violation of Buddhist precepts conducted by monks? What does this prove???
Not according to German Scientists. Are you a scientist? Or just a plain mindless Christian mullah?
Because of some dumb, fanatic Christian mullah masquerading as a humanist. I don't have to apologise for Buddhism, there is nothing to apologise for.
I won't be suprised if you are.
You are a rabid, mindless, bigoted Christian apologist. Live with it. |
after that diatribe you have the nerve to call anyone else rabid? |
Let's put it this way, I don't feel that you are worthy of my respect for the bigot that you are. Respect is earned you see. How's that, feeling better?
Ari
_________________
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." -Einstein
Last edited by Ari on Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:43 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ari
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 976
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
Further with my conversation with Prof. Thurman, specifically presenting him with another article debasing Tibet and the Dalai Lama, he wrote:
| Quote: | She is using Xian missionary propaganda, 19th century and earlier. Their big thing is to prove "Buddhism is not so great." eg. So many crusades and jihads were there, and Buddhism had none - so they make the unholy (i.e. not religiously sanctioned) wars they can find to be equivalent. Buddhist record definitely much more peaceful.
Second, the "inner clique of Dalai is communist stuff - this was created
for the Chinese by western communists who attached themselves to mao
when Stalin and Russia no longer served as an ideal example for
international movement. So they tried to justify Mao's imperialism in Tibet.
Third, the followers of Dorje Shukden cult, which Dalai Lama rejected
since 1970's, though he did not prohibit those who followed it from
doing so - he doesn't have Pope-like powers; this cult is an element in
his order, the Gelukpa order, since 17th dcentury, and successive Dalai
Lamas have tried to get those hwo upheld it to either drop it or keep it
quiet. Reason: the cult is fundamentalist in its devotion to Tsong
Khapa, founder of the order, and intolerant of three other orders of
Tibetan Buddhism and Bon religion etc. So it is the intolerant element
of his own majority order that he tries to restrain here, tro prevent
them from oppressing the minority orders. Some among them, in a recent
manifesation, have accepted funding from Chinese in order to create
dissension in Tibetan community, and have been attacking His Holiness as
if he was suppressing their religious freedom. This was investigated by
Amnesty International and they found the accusations baseless and
politically motivated. The key point: as a religious teacher, HH
dis-recommended the practice, as not helpfult o Buddhist dewvelopment.
He did not forbid it, has no authority to do so. But he said that those
who didn;t listen to his advice could only come to his lectures, not to
his initiations, since they were disregarding his advice. What they did
on their own was their business.
It is true that some lay Tibetans in various exile communities committed
some oppressive acts against the vocal Dorje Shukden and HH criticizing
people. But the Shukden followers themselves actually assassinated three
monks who were close advisers to HH, accordinbg to the indian police. So
it has been a very unfortunate episode. All around, and we can certainly
say that many Tibetan individuals are less than perfvect. The whole feudal, oppressive, etc. business about HH though, does not at all hold up.
Quite the contrary.
Tho I am short of time always, I am happy to dialogue with those who
wish to discredit HH or Buddhism.
Best
RAFT |
We all know Christians have been doing anything possible to discredit Buddhism since its soaring popularity in the West is threatening to the existence of their soul-saving business. Buddhism never considers Christianity a competition (it's like A-list actors considering B-list actors competitors which is ridiculous  ), otoh, Christianity has always been jealous about Buddhism, though much of its lores, myths and parables were obviously taken from Buddhist sources.
And now they work together with the communists to discredit the downtrodden Tibetan Buddhists. It's kinda nauseating to see "godly" people have no problem holding hands in mutually benefiting campaign/endeavor with atheist communists when it serves their agenda.
Ari
_________________
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." -Einstein |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TruthSpeaker
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 203
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | It's kinda nauseating to see "godly" people have no problem holding hands in mutually benefiting campaign/endeavor with atheist communists when it serves their agenda. |
Oh lordy oh lordy why do the christians lie so much? The Faustian bargain ( Paulian might be more accurate) started at the inception of christianity. It started with lies and is now incapable of stopping.
_________________
- The only religion, is the religion of truth. Without truth there can be no reason. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ari
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 976
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
Here is an excellent teaching from the Dalai Lama in the early 60's in New Delhi when the West hadn't known him or made him a global celebrity as he is now. See how sensible, rational, compassionate, wise and intellectual this man was, no comparison to Christian/Muslim clerics who will just insist that their ways are the only ways and other people are lost souls bound to hell. This is to refute those who accuse him as having two faces: loving, kind and compassionate to his Western audience but dictatorial and tyrannical to his own people. He must be a very good actor with a severe mental disorder to be able to speak so sensibly, rationally and compassionately one minute and turn to be a murderous monster the next. It just doesn't hold up.
http://www.gileht.com/HHDL/refuge.html
It upsets me when people are doing all kinds of attempts to slander a moral, marvelously anti-violent human being as him, whom this world direly needs, in the face of the voice of daily intolerance by those who claim themselves to be religious and following a divine path/command. Prof. Thurman himself who has known him for over five decades says that DL is someone who walks what he preaches. THis is not some rosy picture his western allies tried to paint on him. This is reality.
Ari
_________________
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." -Einstein
Last edited by Ari on Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
igiveup
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 169
Location: eastern us
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:43 am Post subject: ------- |
|
|
| Quote: | | Where did I ever attack entire peoples? Slander again? Belief systems yes (and I gather you are not here to speak lovingly of Islam yourself, are you?), on a strong, solid ground I think a true humanist would understand (another proof of your dishonesty, you are never really on the side of humanism, more and more you are revealing your true color). |
where have i spoken ill of islam? i'm against fundi types from all religions (including buddhists).
| Quote: | | Didn't I say earlier that I even acknowledged there were many good human beings who are Muslims or Christians even though I think their religions suck? |
i likewise said that there were many good buddhists but i think their religion "sucks".
| Quote: | Calm down, and organise your thoughts. Take a deep breath.
Decide, you are on the side of Christianity that says non-Christians all go to hellfire or humanism that sees all human beings as equal as Buddhism does???
You can't be both you know. Stop deceiving yourself, you ain't no fooling anyone here. |
where in any of my posts in this thread or others have i said such things you lying fundi? no ari you're the one who's not fooling anyone, you're mind is stuck in this make believe world that tibet was a buddhist paradise till the evil chinese communists invaded and nothing it seems will ever change that.
| Quote: | | Maybe, why does this worry you??? That is what universal truth/religion should be. It should be palatable and acceptable for those who is willing to to reason and be open to inquiries and investigation. You are worried that Christians are losing out more to Buddhism, aren't you? |
weren't you the one that posted some numbers a while back from time (in asia) that showed that chrisitianity is the world's largest religion now and is predicted to be so at least until 2050 (with islam gaining and taking a close second)? are you having bouts of amnesia?
| Quote: | Yeah and you called them internet scientists who are in it for the money, remember???? Liar!
And I have shown you other research on both karma and rebirth. Show me any credible research on the day of judgement! Or Christian heaven and hell. |
no that internet science insult was to the idiots who claimed "proof" of rebirths and reincarnation. you have yet to produce "credible" research.
| Quote: | That would depend on certain factors like expectation, when one meditates one shouldn't expect anything, achieving any target or any goal. This in itself can create disturbances as mentioned above since expectation may not be fulfilled. No one can deny the long-term good effect of meditation. In short terms those negative emotions can happen, and are considered normal, and those, in mindfulness meditation, are object of meditation through which one can better know oneself and overcome their neuroses. There are those who are in the opinion that meditation isn't enough to cure severe mental disorders without accompanied with psychoanalysis or therapy. In those people, meditation perhaps can exacerbate depression, anxiety and negative emotions. If meditation is conducted in the right way, there are very few possibilities of it going wrong. Don't just quote some words out of context.
And I notice you take that quote from your old amo to prove that Buddhism is just as ineffective as Christianity, which I refuted and have never heard anything from you since. |
you've yet to refute anything. in fact you've acknowledged that meditation isn't the end all be all of healthy mind without therapy. and the fact remains (and supported by one of your fellow buddhists no less) that sitting still has the same effect on ones mind as meditation!
| Quote: | You are a closed-minded, one-liner asshole. You don't even bother to read his opinions and how he can get to this research. He is a highly trained psychiatrist, it should mean something to you. Your attitude is a typical Christian fundie of the Middle Age who laughed when he was told that the earth was round or that human beings and apes shared common ancestry. For them it was totally out of the question because they were blinded by their own dogmas and prejudices. Later science made it common knowledge that the earth is round and evolution is a reality. Now see yourself in that light re. karma and rebirth. Science may not confirm their truthfulness just yet, but that is a future possibility and researches are underway and are showing promising signs. The same with the Paralel Universes Theory that posit that the universe branches into infinite possible permutations every second, each one of which branches again into infinite possible permutations, and so forth...since time immemorial, which means there are infinite numbers of you and me and everybody else living different lives, going through different histories, doing different things, being different people, making different decisions, having different professions, etc. in these universes (go try to make sense of it through your severely constricted Christian mullah mind ) And you think rebirth doesn't make sense! My, my!
Mullah giveup, you know I have a point. Just give up now, too bad you retracted from your original plan to do just that, because there is no way you can refute my position soundly |
no in your mind you believe to have a point, you seem to run there whenever something you don't like happens to come your way. dr. ian stevenson has also done some "promising" work on telepathy, apparitions (read: ghosts), and near-death experiences truely laughable.
| Quote: | Many Christians have done it, it's common knowledge. Christian fundies have serious issues with other religions esp. "pagan" or godless ones, esp. when they are being lauded in their own teritories attracting their own people to their folds. It's the nature of monotheism to be holier than thou and self-righteous. Communists, in this case, have their own interest which may not be in alignment with their subjects'. Communism as an ideology is not known for its balance and tolerance either.
Humanists can be biased too! They are just human beings after all, they have their own prejudices too. And don't tell us what the Tibetans want or don't want, you are going to make me puke.
My objection is when the so-called modern westerners trying to impose their glasses on the world. As I said, no doubt old Tibet was feudalitistic as ANY AGRICULTURAL, TRADITIONAL SOCIETY ON EARTH IS/HAS BEEN. But how bad was it? Which POV are you using? Selling people as commodity and tortures are wrong and might have happened then in Tibet, that I agree, but for anyone to claim this was the norm in Old Tibet, I would doubt that. But if it was about peasants being employed for meager income, yes maybe, since it's still happening in many countries in Asia, as I said there are those servants who have worked for generations for a family, they have no holidays and no definite working hours (they are stand-by 24 hours more or less). In the 21st century western POV, it's slavery plain and simple, but ask these people if this is something out of ordinary and try telling them you are trying to liberate them, they will look at you confused: liberated from what??? Are they happy? Not less so than most people. The problem of materialistic west is not being able to comprehend that traditional, less materially developed societies can be fulfilled in their inner life too, in fact more so than themselves since they lead a much simpler life with much simpler expectations. One must take this into account when assessing a totally foreign culture like Tibet. Overromanticising is just as stupid as totally despising it, which is what you are doing now. You should have some healthy skepticism that a bunch of inhuman savages wouldn't have been able to produce such a marvelous inner technology that is now being studied by these "more civilised, more cultured, modern" people in the West. That they wouldn't have been deemed happier than most people because any psychologist will tell you those with serious moral defects are less prone to be happy and more prone to anger, anxiety, dissatisfaction and depression. That's why I call you embarassingly ethnocentric, an uneducated hillbily who has never been out of his village. |
everyone and their mother can be biased except buddhists? that you have yet to cede the fact that prof. thurman and the free tibet crowd (and yourself) can have some bias against the chinese because of personal beliefs speaks volumes for your crediblility. the swans article was well researched because he didn't rely on one source. he got info from surviving tibetans, communists who witnessed the events in tibet, and britisth and french travelers from the early 19th century. why would all these people conspire to lie about tibet and lamaism?
| Quote: | | Karma applies to all sentient beings, so not to inorganic matter, because karma is the law of conducts that require intention. It's subject to debate if amoeba or bacteria are included. Remember the universe is a series of creation and destruction, no beginning no end. Energy can't be created nor can be destroyed. Human beings may cease to exist at one point but consciousness which is a form of energy can't disappear, they must consequently reappear in other creatures. But it's a farfetched hypothesis, the only reason human beings will extinct is when the whole planet or universe is destroyed, which will then be the end of one cycle and the beginning of the next. This surely sounds much more scientific to your ears, no, than the fairy tale of day of judgement or end of the world in which all people are standing in the line in front of the gate of heaven to be screened by winged-angels with big note books in their hands? |
so karma ,a universal law, was dormant until the rise of sentient creatures? what would have happened if thinking beings hadn't evolved? hate to break it to you but, human beings can become extinct and it doesn't require the destruction of the planet or universe, ever heard of the dinosaurs? ruled the planet for millions of years then they were wiped out by an meteor, they died earth lived on. i guess those unthinking animals had developed bad karma. your fairy tale is no more or less rational than the christian or muslim one.
| Quote: | | Go ahead, they can say whatever they want about Buddhism as long as they can reason why. Isn't it the whole issue? Why? Do you have a problem with me calling Christianity anti-humanistic with its dogma that only Christians will be saved? Go show your true color further....you ain't a tad humanistic, who are you trying to fool? |
again with the lies. when did i say i had a problem with you calling christianity anything. here i'll say it myself christianity is anti-humanistic! happy?
| Quote: | | Let's put it this way, I don't feel that you are worthy of my respect for the bigot that you are. Respect is earned you see. How's that, feeling better? |
that pretty much sums up my feelings about you. you argue from emotion then say that i have yet to refute your claims.
| Quote: | We all know Christians have been doing anything possible to discredit Buddhism since its soaring popularity in the West is threatening to the existence of their soul-saving business. Buddhism never considers Christianity a competition (it's like A-list actors considering B-list actors competitors which is ridiculous ), otoh, Christianity has always been jealous about Buddhism, though much of its lores, myths and parables were obviously taken from Buddhist sources.
And now they work together with the communists to discredit the downtrodden Tibetan Buddhists. It's kinda nauseating to see "godly" people have no problem holding hands in mutually benefiting campaign/endeavor with atheist communists when it serves their agenda. |
"she is using Xian missionary propaganda," by this she i assume you he's referring to anna louise strong? it's nice how he pointed that out yet glossed over Dr. A. L. Waddell, Perceval Landon,Captain W.F.T. O'Connor and Spencer Chapman.
and talking about soaring popularity/growth rates, remember this?
http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501030310/
take your own advice and click on the "religion by numbers" link.
| Quote: | | Oh lordy oh lordy why do the christians lie so much? The Faustian bargain ( Paulian might be more accurate) started at the inception of christianity. It started with lies and is now incapable of stopping. |
this is the 4th or 5th time you've posted off topic or attacked me personally, should i speak to the moderator since you are spamming this thread? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TruthSpeaker
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 203
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
Posting miles long lies is on topic. A few line rejoinders is spamming? Mysterious indeed are the ways of the mullahs. Telling the truth about you or others is attacking? Sensitive christian soul, arn't we?
| Quote: | | here i'll say it myself christianity is anti-humanistic! |
_________________
- The only religion, is the religion of truth. Without truth there can be no reason. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ari
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 976
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: ------- |
|
|
| Quote: | [quote="igiveup"] | Quote: | | Where did I ever attack entire peoples? Slander again? Belief systems yes (and I gather you are not here to speak lovingly of Islam yourself, are you?), on a strong, solid ground I think a true humanist would understand (another proof of your dishonesty, you are never really on the side of humanism, more and more you are revealing your true color). |
where have i spoken ill of islam? i'm against fundi types from all religions (including buddhists). |
You think anyone having a strong opinion against biased generalisation against a society/culture and defending something that is grossly misunderstood is a fundie. Where did I ever say that you gotta to be Buddhist to be saved? Where did I ever say you gotta believe karma and reincarnation to be considered moral??? Where did I ever tell you I bought all these doctrines unquestioningly???? You, otoh, are so fundamentalistic in your belief that karma and rebirth were wrong despite all these researches done by informed independent individuals in the field. So who is the fundie here? The closed-minded and not-so-smart bigot slash hillbilly or me?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Didn't I say earlier that I even acknowledged there were many good human beings who are Muslims or Christians even though I think their religions suck? |
i likewise said that there were many good buddhists but i think their religion "sucks". |
Who cares what you think? I just want to point out your repeated lie and slander. Now you admit it, right?
| Quote: | | Quote: | Calm down, and organise your thoughts. Take a deep breath.
Decide, you are on the side of Christianity that says non-Christians all go to hellfire or humanism that sees all human beings as equal as Buddhism does???
You can't be both you know. Stop deceiving yourself, you ain't no fooling anyone here. |
where in any of my posts in this thread or others have i said such things you lying fundi? no ari you're the one who's not fooling anyone, you're mind is stuck in this make believe world that tibet was a buddhist paradise till the evil chinese communists invaded and nothing it seems will ever change that. |
I said calm down. You don't read very well, do you? How many times did I write that I agreed that Tibet wasn't paradise? Strawman again? Feeling desperate? You still don't understand my objection? How many grey cells left in your near-empty skull?
Fact #1. Prof. Thurman who was in Tibet in the 50's rejected that allegation as gross distortion. He's still alive, those other authors who wrote about old Tibet, most likely are dead so you can't confirm many of these allegations. Accusing Thurman of lying just doesn't add up.
Fact #2: Those books most likely talk about other things about Tibet (including the good things) that Michael Parenti ommitted from his article. Until you read the books, it's hard to just make a definite conclusion.
Fact #3: Parenti refused to debate Prof. Thurman on the subject (why? If he's so cock sure about his knowledge on Tibet, what is he afraid of?), or at least that is the impression I got. I have written him personally to accept Thurman's invitation to dialogue.
Fact #4: Tibetan societies have developed mind science and personal transformation tools that are based on open inquiries and compassion for all beings which is the basis of Mahayana Buddhism from which Tibetan Buddhism springs. This is a society that has been conditioned for millenia that hurting/killing animals is to be avoided whenever possible. They even develop a lovingkindness meditation called tonglen in which the practitioner visualise on taking on the sufffering of other people (even all the world) to be replaced by his/her health, well-being and happiness. Imagine that! A society that has this universal loving kindness for all sentient beings at its very foundation and brutal treatment against fellow humans just don't add up!
Fact #5: Scientists show through lab experiments that those in Dharamsala are definitely happy people, happier than most other people from other religions. Happiness and blood/power hungry past don't add up! I can assure you Saddam Hussein isn't a happy soul! Many accounts from many people testify that Tibetans in general is a very pleasant, down-to-earth, compassionate people. Violent people don't become compassionate after a persecution and invasion, look at the Palestinians (I'm not saying they are violent to begin with though, but less spiritually developed people can turn violent when persecuted, LET ALONE VIOLENT PEOPLE!) Again, THESE DON'T ADD UP.
Now, based on all of these facts, tell me mullah giveup, do you think I am wrong in my doubt that the piece is highly sensationalised????
You, otoh, refuse to hear anything from the Tibetan's side. Did you even read the link I gave about what actually happened in independent Tibet from their side???? Did you read the link from the Tibetan Women? About how they are forced to practice abortion and other abominable stuff by the Chinese government???
You are not interested, are you, because they don't serve your purpose. Your purpose is not to present what is true, which is I'm interested in hence I wrote both sides of the story tellers, BUT TO CONFIRM YOUR PREJUDICE AND FURTHER YOUR AGENDA TO SMEAR BUDDHISM FOR WHATEVER REASON THAT MAYBE (most likely because you are a Christian jihadi).
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Maybe, why does this worry you??? That is what universal truth/religion should be. It should be palatable and acceptable for those who is willing to to reason and be open to inquiries and investigation. You are worried that Christians are losing out more to Buddhism, aren't you? |
weren't you the one that posted some numbers a while back from time (in asia) that showed that chrisitianity is the world's largest religion now and is predicted to be so at least until 2050 (with islam gaining and taking a close second)? are you having bouts of amnesia? |
So what? Christianity is appealing to the mindless, uneducated, poor masses in the third world, and their methods of evangelism will justify all means to gain converts. In the West, there is no stopping to the disillusionment of Christians and their flocking to Buddhism.
| Quote: | | Quote: | Yeah and you called them internet scientists who are in it for the money, remember???? Liar!
And I have shown you other research on both karma and rebirth. Show me any credible research on the day of judgement! Or Christian heaven and hell. |
no that internet science insult was to the idiots who claimed "proof" of rebirths and reincarnation. you have yet to produce "credible" research. |
Haha...an idiot who is a professor in University of Virginia??? Get real. You assume too many things about other people, son. Go repent.
And you did make a remark of these scientists will do anything for money, the way they will confirm science in the Koran. You want me to show you that you are lying again? Liar.
Precisely my point, right, that a bigot like you won't take any amount of evidence from independent research as proof of rebirth. Yet at the same time he's shouting about "scientifically sound proof."
Do you know a lot of psychiatrists are not into rebirth when they regress their patients -but just for therapy purposes-, but some of them encounter that this regression brings their patients to a different life as a different person in a different time. And because of this they begin to inquire the possibility of past lives. Some lucky enough like Dr. Stevenson, found incredible links to actual lives of real people in the past, that their patients wouldn't have had ways of knowing.
If you were a psychiatrist, which I'm sure you can never get that accomplished in your life btw , how would you make of this??? Ruling out the possibility of past lives or concocting another theory that is not more believable than rebirth??? Dr. Stevenson doesn't force you to take his findings as proof of rebirth, it's up to you what to make out of them, but his research actually came up with these incredible accounts of lives of real people before his subjects' time!!! His subjects are children, as young as 3 or 4 years old, as well who won't just lie and act to support the agenda of proving reincarnation. Sheeshhh.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | And I notice you take that quote from your old amo to prove that Buddhism is just as ineffective as Christianity, which I refuted and have never heard anything from you since. |
you've yet to refute anything. in fact you've acknowledged that meditation isn't the end all be all of healthy mind without therapy. and the fact remains (and supported by one of your fellow buddhists no less) that sitting still has the same effect on ones mind as meditation! |
Yes, show your fundie mentality once again. You refuse to hear the other side of the story!!! Thousands of people, hundreds of medical practitioners have seen it for themselves the efficacy of meditation for themselves and their patients!! They even neatly documented them and published them in hundred of pages books, a result of observation and research for a few decades. And we have one-liner dimwit here who cuts and pastes one simple paragraph that says of the opposite and gets on his knees worshipping that small paragraph as absolute truth.
I have nothing else to say. You are an insult to humanity.
| Quote: | | Quote: | You are a closed-minded, one-liner asshole. You don't even bother to read his opinions and how he can get to this research. He is a highly trained psychiatrist, it should mean something to you. Your attitude is a typical Christian fundie of the Middle Age who laughed when he was told that the earth was round or that human beings and apes shared common ancestry. For them it was totally out of the question because they were blinded by their own dogmas and prejudices. Later science made it common knowledge that the earth is round and evolution is a reality. Now see yourself in that light re. karma and rebirth. Science may not confirm their truthfulness just yet, but that is a future possibility and researches are underway and are showing promising signs. The same with the Paralel Universes Theory that posit that the universe branches into infinite possible permutations every second, each one of which branches again into infinite possible permutations, and so forth...since time immemorial, which means there are infinite numbers of you and me and everybody else living different lives, going through different histories, doing different things, being different people, making different decisions, having different professions, etc. in these universes (go try to make sense of it through your severely constricted Christian mullah mind ) And you think rebirth doesn't make sense! My, my!
Mullah giveup, you know I have a point. Just give up now, too bad you retracted from your original plan to do just that, because there is no way you can refute my position soundly |
no in your mind you believe to have a point, you seem to run there whenever something you don't like happens to come your way. dr. ian stevenson has also done some "promising" work on telepathy, apparitions (read: ghosts), and near-death experiences truely laughable. |
Well, I have seen telepathy and there are indeed documented phenomena leading to it and NDE is a medical subject too!!! Gee, don't think you are so rational by excluding all of these. There are indeed phenomena beyond rational explanation. How do you explain the yogis who can elevate themselves when meditating?
| Quote: | | everyone and their mother can be biased except buddhists? that you have yet to cede the fact that prof. thurman and the free tibet crowd (and yourself) can have some bias against the chinese because of personal beliefs speaks volumes for your crediblility. the swans article was well researched because he didn't rely on one source. he got info from surviving tibetans, communists who witnessed the events in tibet, and britisth and french travelers from the early 19th century. why would all these people conspire to lie about tibet and lamaism? |
They didn't necessarily lie. You are obtuse. But there are witnesses who also speak otherwise. You gotta consider both sides. If there are two opposing accounts of the same story, there must be some distortion of both accounts. I'm tired of having to explain it to you. It just doesn't register no matter what.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Karma applies to all sentient beings, so not to inorganic matter, because karma is the law of conducts that require intention. It's subject to debate if amoeba or bacteria are included. Remember the universe is a series of creation and destruction, no beginning no end. Energy can't be created nor can be destroyed. Human beings may cease to exist at one point but consciousness which is a form of energy can't disappear, they must consequently reappear in other creatures. But it's a farfetched hypothesis, the only reason human beings will extinct is when the whole planet or universe is destroyed, which will then be the end of one cycle and the beginning of the next. This surely sounds much more scientific to your ears, no, than the fairy tale of day of judgement or end of the world in which all people are standing in the line in front of the gate of heaven to be screened by winged-angels with big note books in their hands? |
so karma ,a universal law, was dormant until the rise of sentient creatures? what would have happened if thinking beings hadn't evolved? |
You are narcissistic to think that this earth is the only planet where lives are found. In an infinite universe, there are infinite possibilities of infinite galaxies that consist of infinite planets with living creatures on them. UFO? Yep...sort of. Scientists don't negate these possibilities. The difference between scientists and bigots like you is scientists do not reject a sound enough hypothesis in the absence of sufficient evidence.
In the infinite universe, anything is possible, bear that in mind.
| Quote: | | hate to break it to you but, human beings can become extinct and it doesn't require the destruction of the planet or universe, ever heard of the dinosaurs? ruled the planet for millions of years then they were wiped out by an meteor, they died earth lived on. i guess those unthinking animals had developed bad karma. your fairy tale is no more or less rational than the christian or muslim one. |
Yeah it takes a very destructive collision of a very big meteor to extinguish the whole population of the planet. Yes collective bad karma, anything strange about that? Considering, according to the theory, they had past lives, they might have been thinking animals (humans) in their past lives. It might sound farfetched to you but I don't think evolution was readily acceptable 100 years ago either.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Go ahead, they can say whatever they want about Buddhism as long as they can reason why. Isn't it the whole issue? Why? Do you have a problem with me calling Christianity anti-humanistic with its dogma that only Christians will be saved? Go show your true color further....you ain't a tad humanistic, who are you trying to fool? |
again with the lies. when did i say i had a problem with you calling christianity anything. here i'll say it myself christianity is anti-humanistic! happy? |
Good. Hope you mean it. Then stop apologising for it mindlessly.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Let's put it this way, I don't feel that you are worthy of my respect for the bigot that you are. Respect is earned you see. How's that, feeling better? |
that pretty much sums up my feelings about you. you argue from emotion then say that i have yet to refute your claims. |
BS. See my soundly backed up arguments! If someone is emotional here, it's you. You are following your emotion to want to believe that Tibet is all bad. I have known about its products enough to raise healthy suspicion of such allegations.
| Quote: | | "she is using Xian missionary propaganda," by this she i assume you he's referring to anna louise strong? it's nice how he pointed that out yet glossed over Dr. A. L. Waddell, Perceval Landon,Captain W.F.T. O'Connor and Spencer Chapman. |
No, different similar allegations by a woman.
Buddhism is increasingly popular among the educated and intellect in both East and West. Number doesn't really count as I have told you that Buddhism is on a different plane to simple monotheistic religions which by nature are more appealing to the average people.
Ari
_________________
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." -Einstein
Last edited by Ari on Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
igiveup
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 169
Location: eastern us
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ari
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 976
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: ----- |
|
|
Interesting, though his critique is limited only to a very small portion of Dr. Setevenson's entire large body of work. Of course some of his objections are not without ground. He said also that Stevenson's work is heavily influenced by his belief system, unaware that believers in reincarnation can point out that his criticism/skepticism is also heavily influenced by his own belief system (which I think, perhaps, materialism or nihilism).
But see here other compelling testimonies of his work that answer some of the guy's objections/criticism:
http://www.childpastlives.org/stevenson_sleuth.htm
| Quote: | This excerpt from pages 97 to 99 of Children's Past Lives demonstrates how incredibly thorough and methodical Dr. Ian Stevenson is when he collects and screens data for his cases.
His methods go to great lengths to refute critics who, beginning with the premise that past lives are impossible, say, "There must be some normal explanation." Dr. Stevenson systematically eliminates all normal explanations until the only explanation left standing is reincarnation. It is as rigorous as the methods in any scientific field.
This method that Dr. Stevenson developed over three decades, is now imitated by researchers all over the world and yields the same results: cases strongly "suggestive" of reincarntion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once I learned how to decipher Dr. Stevenson's abstruse writing style, I discovered the drama in his books. The cases are detective stories. He himself, of course, is the chief sleuth, aided by his sidekick research associates. He follows leads anywhere they take him, often down miles of muddy jeep roads to remote rural villages in Third World countries, never knowing what he will find. He runs into all sorts of colorful characters, many dead ends, and some danger. He's interested in just the facts but has developed a keen eye for the subtle details, the contextual clues that mark the difference between a mere investigator and a master detective.
Like a detective, his immediate goal is a solved case, which to Dr. Stevenson is a well-defined objective. A case is "solved" when he finds a child with spontaneous and detailed memories of a past life, and is able to match the child's memories to the life of one (and only one) deceased person. (He uses the term previous personality for this deceased person.) Finally, to be deemed "verified," he has to be satisfied, after rigorous investigation, that the child had no possible opportunity by normal means--no matter how improbable or absurd--to learn about the previous personality. (Normal is anything other than a past life connection; Dr. Stevenson even screens cases that could be explained by telepathy or spirit possession.)
In other words, a verified case is one where both sides of the equation match convincingly, and where the only explanation--beyond even an unreasonable doubt--is past life memory. Dr. Stevenson has more than eight hundred verified cases in his files.
Where do these cases come from? Because he is studying the natural phenomenon of spontaneous memories, they can't be created in a clinic or laboratory. Dr. Stevenson has to wait for the cases to come to him. He relies on a worldwide network of scouts and colleagues to collect reports and rumors of young children claiming to remember a past life. One of the reasons he has so many cases in India is because his network is more fully developed there than in any other country.
Each of these cases begins when a young child, usually two to four years old, without prompting from anyone, begins talking about a past life. The child will name people and places that nobody in the family has ever heard of before, or he will exhibit odd behavior. In most cases he will describe intimate details of the death--often a violent one. In extreme cases the child will tell his surprised parents that he is really someone else and that he has different parents or even a spouse and children who live in another village or city, and then insist that he be taken there.
The child usually persists in talking about his memories for months or years, despite the sometimes harsh attempts of the family to suppress the memory. (Dr. Stevenson reports that in over half of the cases the family tries to suppress the memory.) Stories about the child's past life memory leak out to the village and spread across districts, finally reaching the ears of a family who have a deceased relative that matches the description the child is giving. This family, upon hearing the news, seeks out the child, curious to see if this is really their deceased relative reborn; or the child's family finally gives in to his pleading and takes him to find his former home.
Typically on these first visits the child will lead the way unaided through the streets of the village to the homestead of the deceased, spontaneously recognize family and friends of the previous personality and call them by their pet names, comment on changes to the house, inquire about people and possessions that he finds missing, and reminisce about obscure events from the past--all from the unique perspective of the deceased. In some cases he will reveal knowledge of hiding places for the family gold, or of secret debts, or of family scandals that no one else knows about. Most amazingly, the child will know nothing about what happened after the previous personality died. The memory is frozen in time. Changes in buildings, in the rooms of the house, or in the appearance of family and friends since the death will strike the child as new, strange, and disorienting.
At some point one of Dr. Stevenson's scouts hears of the case, and the researchers rush to the scene while the memories of the child and of witnesses are still fresh. When Dr. Stevenson arrives, he does everything he can to disprove the child's past life memories. Using interview technique adopted from the field of law, he interviews the child, the family, relatives, and villagers, probing to test the validity of their statements, matching one against the other, and looking for patterns of inconsistency. He refuses to accept secondhand accounts and insists on interviewing only people who witnessed the child speak. Without the knowledge of the family, he discreetly finds and interviews villagers not directly involved with the case to get unbiased character references on the family. He makes surprise visits to the family months and years later to repeat the interviews.
Dr. Stevenson takes every precaution not to make mistakes himself. If he doesn't speak the native language (he knows five languages), he will use two interpreters, and sometimes three, for the interviews. In addition to the notes taken by the team of interviewers, the sessions are taped. He collects and photographs hard evidence, like written records and birthmarks. He transcribes and organizes his notes within days of the visit and carefully builds a chronology of the unfolding of the memories, looking for flaws and gaps.
With the same meticulous care he reconstructs from witnesses exactly what happened when the child met the previous personality's family for the first time and made the first recognitions. He probes especially to discover if any cues were inadvertently supplied to the child. He verifies every fact about the previous personality that the child remembered. On average, in all of his solved cases, 90 percent of these statements check out. Then he investigates any contact the two families might have had between them, no matter how indirect or remote. He presses to find any other opportunity the child might have had to learn the facts he alleges to remember.
When Dr. Stevenson publishes a case, he includes every scrap of raw data that may have a bearing on its validity. Within the text he explores the pros and cons of every possible flaw in the case, every opportunity for normal communication, every way the case might be discredited. These issues are described and dissected in enormous detail. He wants to assure the reader that he has followed through on every possible way the child might have acquired the knowledge, no matter how farfetched. Some of these individual discussions continue for several pages, which make for slow reading.
Dr. Stevenson carries his strict, empirical attitude through to the end. I was amazed by the many direct hits the children make with their memories--these cases are full of them--but in his writing he never gets excited, never calls special attention to the extraordinary things these children say and do. These gleaming nuggets of past life evidence, along with some of the most profound and bizarre human stories I've ever read, are buried among the tailings of technical data and commentary. |
and here:
http://www.childpastlives.org/stevenson_intv2.htm
| Quote: | The idea that some children of ages three to five not only remember a previous existence, but can identify loved ones from it, strikes most Westerners as so bizarre that it compels disbelief. Perhaps this is why the world's foremost investigator of the phenomenon, Dr. Ian Stevenson, has attracted so little attention.
Since the late Sixties Dr. Ian Stevenson, Carlson Professor of Psychiatry and Director or the Division of Personality Studies at the University of Virginia, has documented cases in India, Africa, the Near and Far East, Britain, the United States, and elsewhere in which young children have astonished their parents with precise details about the people they claim to have been. Some of these children have recognized former homes and neighborhoods as well as still-living friends and relatives. They have recalled events in their purported previous lives, including their often violent deaths. Sometimes their birthmarks resemble scars that correspond to wounds that led, they claim, to their deaths.
All this is the stuff of lurid fiction and pulp journalism, presumably unworthy of serious investigation. In this context Stevenson is considered unique: His studies are scrupulously objective and methodologically impeccable. The late Herbert S. Ripley, former chairman of the psychiatry department at the University of Washington in Seattle, noted, "We are lucky to have someone of his ability and high integrity investigating this controversial area. Wrote Dr. Harold Lief in the Journal of Nervous and Mental Diseases: "Either he is making a colossal mistake, or he will be known as the Galileo of the twentieth century." |
Please note his position above with University of Virginia, Dr. Stevenson is by no means a dodgy scientist as you would conveninetly cast him.
And if you think rebirth has no place in serious science, you can't be more ill-informed. Here is a link of a science website, you can find rebirth according to Buddhism there as well:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/odp/Top/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Reincarnation/Evidence
You are way too small-minded to exclude rebirth from serious scientific investigation and from plausible reality altogether.
Ari
_________________
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." -Einstein |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ari
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 976
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 5:39 am Post subject: Re: ------- |
|
|
| Quote: | | Quote: | | And I notice you take that quote from your old amo to prove that Buddhism is just as ineffective as Christianity, which I refuted and have never heard anything from you since. |
you've yet to refute anything. in fact you've acknowledged that meditation isn't the end all be all of healthy mind without therapy. and the fact remains (and supported by one of your fellow buddhists no less) that sitting still has the same effect on ones mind as meditation! |
Yes for normal people without psychosis meditation suffices.
Here is your old thread to which I refuted:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3548
Ari
_________________
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." -Einstein |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ari
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 976
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 5:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Rebirth according Buddhism. It has a very scientific, sophisticated and solid theory behind it. Not at all like a oversimplistic fairy-tale theology that monotheism purports.
http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/rebirth.htm
Austrian Scientist Rudolf Steiner says,
"Just as an age was once ready to receive the Copernican theory of the universe, so is our age ready for the idea of reincarnation to be brought into the general consciousness of humanity".
BTW, I heard evangelism from radio last nite (they called it "counseling program"), and the priest for about 2 or 3 hours kept saying about if you want bless from God, obey him, don't forget the 1/10 (his "royalty" that is ) you have to contribute according to the Bible. I shook my head, no surprise they are so agressive in their soul-saving business, it is not saving souls they are interested in, it's the 1/10 that drives them!!! I don't see how his "counseling" session could help anyone solving his problem. Nothing sensible and intelligent coming from his mouth, it's all about luring gullible, immature people to their folds with threats and promises of rewards (you teach a child with that method). It's all about mind control (by the priest) and blind faith.
So shallow. So mindless. No surprise to see how so very dumb a lot of Christians are, only this kind of species will be attracted to this kind of religion! And even quite smart people can go dumb when they become a Christian, my cousin is a shiny example!
No surprise they are so jealous and frightened of the influence of Buddhism! The two are like modern medicine and quackery.
Ari
_________________
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." -Einstein
Last edited by Ari on Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Perro Grande
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 198
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | So shallow. So mindless. No surprise to see how so very dumb a lot of Christians are, only this kind of species will be attracted to this kind of religion! And even quite smart people can go dumb when they become a Christian, my cousin is a shiny example!
|
I've seen this happen, too...
It seems to be systemic in the Abrahamic religions -- the more fervent one is, the more they are likely to unhook their brain. This is rampant in Islam, as they strive to turn the clock back 1400 years.
Some quotes directed to me by various Christians:
"you think too much"
"you ask too many questions"
"you need to stop thinking and just believe"
I've never been able to understand the connundrum of supposedly being 'created' with a brain, yet I'm not supposed to use it... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ari
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 976
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Another thing I would like to point out the stark difference between monotheistic and Buddhist doctrines. While monotheistic doctrines are obviously motivated by human fear of extinction/death so they have to concoct a consoling and lame dogma on eternal life in heaven if you please God or hell if you anger him after one short life on this earth (a very primitive notion to begin with that can be traced back to tens of thousands of years ago when humans began worshipping magical power to help themselves cope with the pain and uncertainly of life), Buddhism curiously -as anyone couldn't help noticing- has this fascinating "coldness", detachment, analytical proclivity and dispassion typical of science with its doctrines. It doesn't care about the "good" and "bad" as perceived by people nor does it concern to please/threaten anyone. It's so matter-of-fact and no-nonsense-like. Its laws are impersonal as any law should be. When science talks about gravity, it doesn't try to tell you how bad or good gravity is. It is devoid of any dualistic moral judgement. It's just reality. The same as when Buddhism talks about karma and rebirth, it doesn't try to pamper your ego by implying that this is good for you that this is going to save you from eternal damnation or extinction (the fact that it calls itself rebirth, not reincarnation speaks volume of its impersonal nature as rebirth shows more detachment and little motive for ego pampering/preservation than reincarnation). It's just a law of nature that doesn't have anyone controlling it, no God no nothing. Its approach is totally matter-of-fact and impersonal. Though some skeptics might argue that Buddhism has just the same motive as monotheists in purporting its rebirth doctrine, i.e. human basic fear of death/extinction, fact is this accusation is contradictory to its other positions of not glorifying the cycle of life and death (which is called samsara that is bound to dissatiscation/suffering) and the cessation of this cycle which is called Nirvana. If anything the Buddhist position is actually quite the opposite of that of monotheism, that is "the extinction of earthy/worldly -even heavenly- existence that is subject to suffering" (Nir, from Nirvana, means to extinct). However, Buddhism isn't nihilism, neither does it advocate pessimism and apathy and loath of life, quite the contrary (no other religion values life as much as Buddhism, which is extended to ALL sentient beings, not only humans of the same creed, hence the "extreme pacifism" as perceived by some people. And no other religion teaches the skills to free oneself from suffering in THIS CURRENT life as Buddhism does -so in fact Nirvana or liberation can be achieved here and now in this life, not after one's death). And Nirvana -as the cessation of samsara- can't be categorised as either existence or non-existence.
It's hard for anyone with a brain not to be impressed by Buddhism. No surprise most Buddhist converts in America are Jews, as they are known as a "chosen race" when it comes to excellence. No surprise Christians are scared shitless by its power.
And I have yet to see a Christian who doesn't go silence after a few minutes when dealing with a Buddhist in a debate. So don't wake up a sleeping giant, you should know what you'll have in store.
Ari
_________________
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." -Einstein |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ari
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 976
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
FYI, this is the email I sent Michael Parenti 3 days ago, to which I haven't got a reply and I don't expect one as someone else has tried to match him with Prof. Thurman before to no avail. It speaks volume of his credibility.
| Quote: | Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 8:33 PM
Subject: Your article on Tibet and Bob Thurman's response
Dear Mr. Parenti,
Recently I found your article on old Tibet which gives an impression that it was really a backward, violent society without anything good coming from it. Though I understand your point was to rebuke those who over-romanticise pre-Chinese occupation Tibet and I'm sure the atrocities you wrote actually happened, I sense that your piece is highly imbalanced. Lay people with little knowledge of Tibet/Tibetans and their culture/belief will go away having a very bad picture in his mind re. this society which in fact has produced a marvelous inner technology (mind science) that can benefit mankind which you made no mention whatsoever. In this regard I feel that you have done injustice against a whole culture/society which is so rich in its uniqueness which is now facing an imminent extinction in the hands of the communist invaders/oppressors.
Further I contacted Prof. Robert Thurman, the authority on Indo-Tibetan studies, to ask for his response. This is what he wrote:
Hi
This is standard Communist propaganda against Tibet - feudal, serfs,
barbarity, etc.. Very refutable. Certainly there were some abuses in
Tibet - not perfect. But Buddhist record of nonviolence much better than
theistic religions over all, and Tibetan record much better than most
buddhist countries, as they changed over a thousand years from a
militaristic empire to a monastic demilitarized society - albeit many
individuals not up to the social ideal, as usual.
Someone has been trying to get this guy to debate me, but no avail.
BEst
RAFT
It will be beneficial for everyone concerned if you can have a dialogue with Prof. Thurman to put this matter into perspective and right proportion. I appreciate you must be very busy as is Prof. Thurman, however for the sake of truth and justice, I feel that I'm not asking too much with this request. I'm looking forward to your favorable answer. |
I think this guy knows there is no way he can win debating with Thurman.
Ari
_________________
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." -Einstein |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Unknown 300
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 14
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 7:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
great job ari.
very interesting read all the way through. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Perro Grande
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 198
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
It is, I believe, a natural tendency for humans to look at a situation from a limited point of view. Most folks tend to guage "happiness" and "sadness" relative to their own concepts of these ideas.
This is especially true in the West, where we have gotten incredibly "goal-oriented" and materialistic. We tend to equate happiness in our own terms -- often strictly in posessions.
Pardon the cliche', but posessions do not bring true happiness. I spent many years spending money like a fool attempting to be truly happy. Various religious 'experiences' produced short-term relief, but nothing lasting. The adrenalin and perhaps seratonin producing effects of western religions was, for me, short term at best -- impermanent. This is, I think, because I could fool myself only so long. There is more -- much more -- about our consciousness than western religions (with their fundamental fear & guilt based dogma) comprehend. Thus, I have decided to feed my brain for long term enlightenment, not cower in ignorance, guilt, and fear of a vengeful, capricious deity.
This leads, albeit rather hyperbolically, back to my 'point of view' statement. If we narrowly define happiness, or even 'enlightenment,' we are bound to find fault wherever we turn. It must not be judged strictly by western standards. Sure, the west has much to offer -- technology, science, medicine, to name a few -- but these things alone do not equate to freedom from suffering. The west has much to learn from Buddhism and other philosophies of the east. However, in order to do so, we in the west must set-aside many preconceived or narrowly conceived viewpoints.
There is great opportunity in educated, peaceful exchange between these cultures. It will not happen, however, if narrow-mindedness prevails (on either 'side'). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
