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Faith Freedom International
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Mullah Mo
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 470
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| bread wrote: | Jesus was crucified, and died a horrible death on the cross like the terroirst he was. It was the Romans who killed him for sedition and armed rebellion. here is the link: askwhy.co.uk Yoiu have t osearch for Jesus and take it from there.
The Christian lie that Jews killed Jesus is unfounded. It was a slander, politically motivated, but unsuported by evidence. Jesus brough great suffering on the Jews with his rebellion both in his life and especially after his death, since the Christian slander of Deicide against Jews was used to persecute them for 19 centuries at the hands of Christians. Right now it seems to have subsided and I hope it stays that way. |
I was born into a Christian family and was a devout Christian for a long time. Until I was mid teen, I think, is when I abandoned religion altogether. The first time I read the above statement by you, I felt like my heart just fell into a black hole.
I think I’ve come to terms with it now. I take that as a possibility. I mean, if 1.3 billion could be wrong about one man then who am I?? I could be wrong about Jesus.
Peace, |
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Unknown 288
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 2:37 am Post subject: |
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To TheNabi
Let me summarize your whole point:
- crucifixion is a dishonor death.
- Jesus was not raised to heaven.
- Jesus was disgraced, therefore 'raise' refers to his status.
- You conclude this from the word rafa'a.
- Jesus was never raised to heaven, for he will meet judgement together with all human on 'the day'.
Unfortunately:
1. If he was never crucified, he was never dishonored. Why would allah raise his status then?
2. The complete verse 4:158 indicates theres a missing word 'up' from your translation. And the phrase 'raise him up to Himself' really doesn't fit 'status'.
3. Verse 4:159 and 4:172 indicate that Jesus will not be judged, but instead a witness and a judge himself.
4. You are not the first one to interprete it that way. However verse 3:55 supports more of Jesus' ascension to heaven alive than status raise. That's the reason why general population of Islam believe so. |
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TheNabi
Joined: 18 Nov 2002
Posts: 113
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Peace Bag_of_Thoughts (6:54)
You said:
| Quote: | | 1. If he was never crucified, he was never dishonored. Why would allah raise his status then? |
The dishonor is obviously not to his body, but to his personhood, and/or personality.
You said:
| Quote: | | 2. The complete verse 4:158 indicates theres a missing word 'up' from your translation. And the phrase 'raise him up to Himself' really doesn't fit 'status'. |
People are raised up in the Bronx, and people are raised up to the position of General. Raise him up according to my understanding is speaking of raising up Jesus' dignity in God's sight. I.E. the results of his work, we reap what we sow.
You said:
| Quote: | | 3. Verse 4:159 and 4:172 indicate that Jesus will not be judged, but instead a witness and a judge himself. |
In verse 4:159 Jesus indeed will be a witness over the people whom he spent his life with and witnessed. This is the same for all other witnesses on the Day of Reckoning (16:89).
In verse 4:172, there are two beings being referred to here, Jesus and God. Jesus is spoken of as being humble, willing to serve God. Then it is said that those who are opposite of Jesus and the angels, who are humble before God, they are sure to be assembled, or gathered to God in the Hereafter.
You said:
| Quote: | | 4. You are not the first one to interprete it that way. However verse 3:55 supports more of Jesus' ascension to heaven alive than status raise. That's the reason why general population of Islam believe so. |
Do tell?
Take care.
Joe
_________________
17:84 Say, "Everyone works in accordance with his belief, and your Lord knows best which ones are guided in the right path."
12:106 The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship. |
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TheNabi
Joined: 18 Nov 2002
Posts: 113
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Peace Bag_of_Thoughts (6:54)
Some translations of 3:55 are as follows:
Khalifa: Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.
Pickthall: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
Shakir: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
Yusuf Ali: Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
Asad: Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ.
In your last post you said: 'However verse 3:55 supports more of Jesus' ascension to heaven alive than status raise.'
It is said that 'you all' must return to God in the end and that God will judge between 'them' in regards to their differences. Jesus cannot be physically raised to God if everyone is to be doing that (not brought back in our current condition) in the end where everyone will be judged.
Here, God is proclaiming that He will clear/cleanse Jesus of the false conjectures attributed to him, because Jesus is exalted based on the work he did in life and He also declared that Jesus is sure to die. Check out this page to view the life of Jesus: http://www.geocities.com/fingolfin_hk/Jesus.html
Take care.
Joe
_________________
17:84 Say, "Everyone works in accordance with his belief, and your Lord knows best which ones are guided in the right path."
12:106 The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship. |
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M
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 271
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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The New testement says that Jesus {Joshua in hebrew} had for knolege of his Arrest which sujests that it was all preplaned. The new testament also states the Jesus died very quickly.With in a matter of hours. It takes days or weeks to die on a cross. This sugjest that he realy didnt die.He was only in a drug induced coma. opium was a prevelent drug at the time. And enough of it can make you look like your dead but your just passed out.
Fakeing a death and resurection would have been very easy at the time for someone who knew how to do it..As a matter of fact Moderen science is quite capable of duplicating the Miricales of Jesus Christ.
A simple opium OD would have done the trick here. |
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