Faith Freedom International :: View topic

Faith Freedom International

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

Islamic Fallacies
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next

This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.

This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.

Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> Quran (errancies, miracles and science)

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

rand

Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:41 pm Post subject: Personal Gain

Muhammad was using prophecy for his own material benefit. For the same reason we should be skeptical of bribed witnesses, we should be skeptical of bribed prophets.

Quote:

[8.41] And know that whatever thing you gain, a fifth of it is for Allah and for the Apostle and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, if you believe in Allah and in that which We revealed to Our servant, on the day of distinction, the day on which the two parties met; and Allah has power over all things.

How did Muhammad get money to afford all kinds of wives? This verifies some of the material in the hadith.

Quote:

[33.30] O wives of the prophet! whoever of you commits an open indecency, the punishment shall be increased to her doubly; and this IS easy to Allah.

This verifies that the prophet had many wives, as mentioned in the hadith. Further, if one marries young girls, one becomes insecure, so he must threaten them. In the same way Muhammad threatened his wives to obey him, his Allah threatens people in the same way.

Quote:

[33.50] O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

This shows how the hypocrite has special privelages.

Quote:

[33.53] O you who believe! do not enter the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to you for a meal, not waiting for its cooking being finished-- but when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken the food, then disperse-- not seeking to listen to talk; surely this gives the Prophet trouble, but he forbears from you, and Allah does not forbear from the truth And when you ask of them any goods, ask of them from behind a curtain; this is purer for your hearts and (for) their hearts; and it does not behove you that you should give trouble to the Apostle of Allah, nor that you should marry his wives after him ever; surely this is grievous in the sight of Allah.

Is this a message for all time, or is it just using prophecy for personal benefits?

Quote:

[3.132] And obey Allah and the Apostle, that you may be shown mercy.

Quote:

[3.32] Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

Quote:

[3.132] And obey Allah and the Apostle, that you may be shown mercy.

Quote:

[4.13] These are Allah's limits, and whoever obeys Allah and His Apostle, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them; and this is the great achievement.

Quote:

[4.69] And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!

Quote:

[4.80] Whoever obeys the Apostle, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.

Quote:

[5.92] And obey Allah and obey the apostle and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that only a clear deliverance of the message is (incumbent) on Our apostle.

Quote:

[8.1] They ask you about the windfalls. Say: The windfalls are for Allah and the Apostle. So be careful of (your duty to) Allah and set aright matters of your difference, and obey Allah and His Apostle if you are believers.

Quote:

[8.20] O you who believe! obey Allah and His Apostle and do not turn back from Him while you hear.

Quote:

[8.46] And obey Allah and His Apostle and do not quarrel for then you will be weak in hearts and your power will depart, and be patient; surely Allah is with the patient.

Quote:

[9.71] And (as for) the believing men and the believing women, they are guardians of each other; they enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Apostle; (as for) these, Allah will show mercy to them; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Quote:

[24.52] And he who obeys Allah and His Apostle, and fears Allah, and is careful of (his duty to) Him, these it is that are the achievers

Quote:

[24.54] Say: Obey Allah and obey the Apostle; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and nothing rests on the Apostle but clear delivering (of the message).

Quote:

[33.66] On the day when their faces shall be turned back into the fire, they shall say: O would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Apostle!

Quote:

[33.71] He will put your deeds into a right state for you, and forgive you your faults; and whoever obeys Allah and His Apostle, he indeed achieves a mighty success.

Quote:

[47.33] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle, and do not make your deeds of no effect.

Quote:

[58.13] Do you fear that you will not (be able to) give in charity before your consultation? So when you do not do it and Allah has turned to you (mercifully), then keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and obey Allah and His Apostle; and Allah is Aware of what you do.

Quote:

[64.12] And obey Allah and obey the Apostle, but if you turn back, then upon Our Apostle devolves only the clear delivery (of the message).

===

Quote:

[26.108] Therefore guard against (the punishment of) Allah and obey me
[26.110] So guard against (the punishment of) Allah and obey me.
[26.126] Therefore guard against (the punishment of) Allah and obey me:
[26.131] So guard against (the punishment of) Allah and obey me
[26.144] Therefore guard against (the punishment of) Allah and obey me:
[26.15O] Therefore guard against (the punishment of) Allah and obey me;
[26.163] Therefore guard against (the punishment of) Allah and obey me:
[26.179] Therefore guard against (the punishment of) Allah and obey me:

===

Quote:

[84.2] And obeys its Lord and it must.
[84.5] And obeys its Lord and it must.

bush badee

Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:51 pm Post subject:

Ran wrote

Quote:

3. Muhammad forged the Quran.

Rand I will not argue or discuss what you have written except perhaps for two comments.

One I think you are being far to easy on Muhammed (JK&CM) , He was far worse than you paint him. You really missed a lot of comparisons that you might have used.
He was far viler than even you intimate, ASSUMING HE REALLY EXISTED.

bUT IN ANYcase you are wrong in 3, noted above.
Muhammed (JK&CM) probably had little or nothing to do with the writing of the coran.
It was not written till about 150 years after his death and that is at least 5 (to Cool

generations after his possible existance.
That is much to many generations for any one to keep a story straight.
_________________
to answere directly email to
Bushbadee@aol.com

bread
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:56 am Post subject:

bush badee wrote:

What a silly topic.
Of course their are errancies.
The first errancy occurs in Sura 1 and the last one in Surrah 113 .
The whole thing is full of errancies and it would take more space than this group has to list them all.

I know there are 114 surahs, but that one I agree with.

So do you believe in Jinns then? Exactly what is the Jinn of the Quran? It cannot be Devil, because Devils appear also, separately. And some Jinns are good and Muslim according to the Quran. Wink

Whereas all Devils are bad and evil.

Just curious.

bush badee

Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:59 am Post subject:

Bread wrote

Quote:

So do you believe in Jinns then? Exactly what is the Jinn of the Quran? It cannot be Devil, because Devils appear also, separately. And some Jinns are good and Muslim according to the Quran. Whereas all Devils are bad and evil.

Just curious.

While I do believe in Jinn, I happen to prever Vodka.
I am sure there are good jinns but I did not know there was a Muslim Jinn.
Is that a Jinn with out alcohol?
Or just a lower alcohol content.

My wife often gives me the devil but I generally ignore it so i really do not know to much about the devil.

Now as to Gd, that is a different story.
Unless they have buillt a transporter which could have gotten my son out of that car and scotty beamed him out , in violation of all the laws of physics and the Second law of thermodynamics, I am forced to know that there is a Gd.
_________________
to answere directly email to
Bushbadee@aol.com

rand

Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:37 pm Post subject: Was Ayesha a Scholar?

Apologists have argued that Ayesha was a scholar to justify Muhamad's marriage to a six-year-old.

Quote:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:Sahih Bukhari
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Below are some quotes from Ayesha:

Quote:

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 43: Sahih Bukhari
Narrated 'Aisha:
(That she said), "O Allah's Apostle! We consider Jihad as the best deed. Should we not fight in Allah's Cause?" He said, "The best Jihad (for women) is Hajj-Mabrur (i.e. Hajj which is done according to the Prophet's tradition and is accepted by Allah)."

Quote:

Volume 8, Book 78, Number 618:Sahih Bukhari
Narrated 'Aisha:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq had never broken his oaths till Allah revealed the expiation for the oaths. Then he said, "If I take an oath to do something and later on I find something else better than the first one, then I do what is better and make expiation for my oath."

Quote:

Volume 8, Book 81, Number 792:Sahih Bukhari
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet cut off the hand of a lady, and that lady used to come to me, and I used to convey her message to the Prophet and she repented, and her repentance was sincere.

Quote:

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 149:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet said to his wives, "You are allowed to go out to answer the call of nature. "

Quote:

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 169:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet used to like to start from the right side on wearing shoes, combing his hair and cleaning or washing himself and on doing anything else.

Quote:

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 222:
Narrated 'Aisha:
(the mother of faithful believers) A child was brought to Allah's Apostle and it urinated on the garment of the Prophet. The Prophet asked for water and poured it over the soiled place.

Quote:

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 296:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet used to lean on my lap and recite Qur'an while I was in menses.

Quote:

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299:
Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad:
(on the authority of his father) 'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could."

Quote:

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 401:
Narrated 'Aisha:
(the mother of faithful believers) Allah's Apostle saw some nasal secretions, expectoration or sputum on the wall of the mosque in the direction of the Qibla and scraped it off.

Quote:

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 445:
Narrated 'Aisha:
Once I saw Allah's Apostle at the door of my house while some Ethiopians were playing in the mosque (displaying their skill with spears). Allah's Apostle was screening me with his Rida' so as to enable me to see their display. ('Urwa said that 'Aisha said, "I saw the Prophet and the Ethiopians were playing with their spears.")

Quote:

Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him."

Quote:

Volume 1, Book 11, Number 640:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet said, "If supper is served, and Iqama is pronounced one should start with the supper."

Quote:

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 332:
Narrated Ibn Abu Mulaika:
'Aisha said, "The Prophet died in my house on the day of my turn while he was leaning on my chest closer to my neck, and Allah made my saliva mix with his Saliva." 'Aisha added, "'AbdurRahman came with a Siwak and the Prophet was too weak to use it so I took it, chewed it and then (gave it to him and he) cleaned his teeth with it."

Quote:

Volume 8, Book 81, Number 778:
Narrated 'Aisha:
Usama approached the Prophet on behalf of a woman (who had committed theft). The Prophet said, "The people before you were destroyed because they used to inflict the legal punishments on the poor and forgive the rich. By Him in Whose Hand my soul is! If Fatima (the daughter of the Prophet ) did that (i.e. stole), I would cut off her hand."

Ibn Rushd

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 256

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:39 pm Post subject:

rand wrote:

Quote:

Apologists have argued that Ayesha was a scholar to justify Muhamad's marriage to a six-year-old.

A scholar? Shocked

I've never heard of this one before. Which apologists have said this?

Please give modern authorities, both Muslim and non-Muslim so that I can see just how far flung this s**t really goes.

rand

Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 6:40 pm Post subject:

Ibn Rushd wrote:

Quote:

A scholar? I've never heard of this one before. Which apologists have said this?

http://www.nzmuslim.net/article171.html writes:

Quote:

Ayesha could read and write. Ayesha prided herself on being the only virgin that the Prophet ever married and that she had been shown to him by the angel Gabriel. Prophet Muhammad received revelations in Ayesha’s presence. Ayesha’s love and devotion to Muhammad and his cause made her excel over his other wives in many ways. Ayesha was Muhammad’s favourite wife. She was a scholar in the Quran, faraid (inheritance), halal and haram (lawful and unlawful things), fiqh (jurisprudence), poetry, medicine, Arabic history and genealogy. She used to give Fatwa (judgement) in her lifetime. Prophet Muhammad died in Ayesha’s lap.

=
http://www.verity.nu/women/ayesha.htm writes:

Quote:

In his comments on the ahadith in Sahih Muslim which mention 'Aishah's young marriage to the Prophet, 'Abdul-Hamid Siddiqi shows points three other reasons for this marriage:

'Aishah's marriage to the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) at an early age allowed her to be an eye witness to the personal details of his life and carry them on the succeeding generations. By being both spiritually and physically near to the Prophet , the marriage prepared 'Aishah to be an example to all Muslims, especially women, for all times. She developed into a spiritual, teacher and scholar, since she was remarkably intelligent and wise. Her qualities helped support the Prophet's work and further the cause of Islam. 'Aishah, the Mother of the Believers, was not only a model for wives and mothers, but she was also a commentator on the Qur'an, an authority on hadeeth and knowledgeable in Islamic Law. She narrated at least 2,210 ahadith that give Muslims valuable insights into the Final Prophet's daily life and behaviour, thus preserving the Sunnah of Muhammad (p.b.u.h).

=
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/8206/hkrausen/aie.htm writes:

Quote:

Aisha spent the rest of her life in Medina, teaching and helping people with good advice. She was one of the most important scholars of early Islam. Her nephew Urwa later on said about her, "I never met anyone with a better knowledge of Islamic law, medicine and poetry than my aunt Aisha." Since she never had children of her own, she gave a home to her niece whose name was also Aisha and who was similar to her in many ways. She was her aunt's student and became an great scholar. Aisha died in Median at a very old age.

=
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~alnur/ISLAM/GRMUSLIMS/Aisha.htm

Quote:

The life of Aisha is proof that a woman can be far more learned than men and that she can be the teacher of scholars and experts. Her life is also proof that a woman can exert influence over men and women and provide them with inspiration and leadership. Her life is also proof that the same woman can be totally feminine and be a source of pleasure, joy and comfort to her husband.

She did not graduate from any university there were no universities as such in her day. But still her utterances are studied in faculties of literature, her legal pronouncements are studied in colleges of law and her life and works are studied and researched by students and teachers of Muslim history as they have been for over a thousand years.

The bulk of her vast treasure of knowledge was obtained while she was still quite young. In her early childhood she was brought up by her father who was greatly liked and respected for he was a man of wide knowledge, gentle manners and an agreeable presence. Moreover he was the closest friend of the noble Prophet who was a frequent visitor to their home since the very early days of his mission.

=
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

Quote:

In any discussion on the age of Aisha (ra: may Allah be pleased with her) at the time of her marriage with the Holy Prophet Muhammad (may peace and the blessings of Allah be upon him), it is of the greatest relevance to note the pivotal role she played as a teacher, exponent and interpreter of the religion of Islam. Aisha was an exceptionally intelligent and astute woman, a young prodigy, and this was the main reason why she was got married to the Holy Prophet, as is clearly proved by events after the Holy Prophet’s life. She entered his household, shortly after his emigration to Madina, just at the time when the teachings of Islam in all fields of life for the Muslim community were starting to be revealed to the Holy Prophet and demonstrated by him by his example and practice. An intellectually gifted person was required who would have daily contact with the Holy Prophet at the closest and most personal level, so as to absorb the teachings that he was giving on all aspects of life by his words and actions. Such a person would need to possess the following qualities:

an excellent, precise memory to retain a vast amount of detail accurately,
the understanding to grasp the significance and the principles of the teachings,
powers of reasoning, criticism and deduction to resolve problems on the basis of those teachings,
the skills to convey knowledge to a wide range of audience,
and, finally, have the prospect of living for a considerable period of time after the death of the Holy Prophet in order to spread his message to distant generations.

That Aisha possessed all these qualities and carried out this mission is an absolutely positive and undeniable, historical fact. After the Holy Prophet’s death, she acted as a teacher and interpreter of Islam, providing guidance to even the greatest of the male Companions of the Holy Prophet Muhammad. They made a special point of going to her to gain knowledge and seek her opinion. A vast number of sayings and actions of the Holy Prophet are reported from her in books of Hadith. She not only quoted his sayings and reported her observations of events, but interpreted them to provide solutions to questions. Whenever necessary, she corrected the views of the greatest of the Companions of the Holy Prophet. She made rulings and judgments on which Islamic law is based.

Ibn Rushd

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 256

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 6:55 pm Post subject:

EEEEKKKK!!!!! MSAs! I'm melting, MELTING!!! AAAaaaahhhhh.........

bread
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:21 pm Post subject:

That was a 6 year old illiterate kid (Ayesha) they talked about. Where was that genius evident? In getting raped by a 51 year old power hungry man (MuhamMAD)?? Is htat what represented genius? And was that the reward (getting sexually molested at 9 by a 53 year old MuhamMAD)???

bush badee

Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:49 pm Post subject:

rand wrote

Quote:

Apologists have argued that Ayesha was a scholar to justify Muhamad's marriage to a six-year-old.

Seeing as all the quotes you list were written perhaps 150 years after she was long dead, what makes you think she said any thing attributed to her.
Do you think some one followed her around scribbling down every thing she said?

Yea bread.

A super smart 6 year old, did you know she invented relitivity but they couldn't spell it so she never got credit for the invention.

She wasn't even toilet trained when Mo sawher at the age of 3 and fell in love with her and decided he wanted her.
Talk about sick pedophiles.

Rand wrote

Quote:

Quote:
A scholar? I've never heard of this one before. Which apologists have said this?

http://www.nzmuslim.net/article171.html writes:

You know these bubba meinsers like your above site remind me of all the stories about the lost years of Jesus, who probly never existed in the first place.

How would this character know, was he there.?

Rand wrote

Quote:

Prophet Muhammad died in Ayesha’s lap.

Yea that often happens when 60 year old men try to have sex with 15 year old girls.

Of course that lamb stew prepared for him by one of the woman he raped after killing her husband didn't exactly help.
_________________
to answere directly email to
Bushbadee@aol.com

Unknown 32

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 105

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:36 pm Post subject:

If Aisha was so brilliant at understanding Islam, then why did she declare a war against a fellow Muslim (Ali) and his followers? Did she forget how bad in-fighting was considered by Muhammed and Allah? Muslims seem to conveniently forget this rather un-Islamic action of hers.

Unknown 32

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 105

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:38 pm Post subject:

Bush badee, rand is just quoting the justifications used by Muslims, he's not himself one. Some people ought to read more carefully on this site

rand

Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:01 pm Post subject: a woman should go out only three times in her life

I am quoting from the "Price of Honor: Muslim Women lift the veil of silence on the islamic world" page 56 (chapter 3: Pakistan one step forward two steps back) by Jan Goodwin, 1995:

Quote:

" The koranic injunctions for men to cast down their eyes when in the presence of the opposite sex appeared forgotten. According to Women's right activists Khawar Mumtaz and Farida Shaeed, women were now being scrutinized in a manner that was previously unheard of. Theologian Dr. Israr Ahmad, who was also a member of the advisory Council of Islamic Ideology, and was handpicked by Zia for the Federal Council, actually stated on government-controlled television that no one could be punished for assaulting or raping a woman until an Islamic Society had been created. By that he meant a total absence of female visibility. He and President Zia wanted women to return to the traditional chador and chardiwari---"the veil and four walls".
Under this custom, which is practiced in conservative regions of Pakistan and particularly in the provinces of Baluchistan and the Northwest Frontier, it is said that a woman should go out only three times in her life: the first time, when she is born, the second, when she is married and taken to her husband's home; and the third when she dies and is taken to be buried. And on the occassion when she goes out, she is expected to wear a burqa veil, a tentlike garment that covers her from head to toe, shrouding her completely except for her feet. The only opening is a small embroidered grill at eye level, through which she is destined to view the world in blurred glimpses.
The burqa is stifling in Pakistan's extreme summer heat. Everyday errands, even going out for groceries, are undertaken by the males of the family. This confinement is frequently carried out to such extremes that women suffer from a host of ailments caused by lack of physical exercise and exposure to sunlight. There is a high incidence of osteomalacia, a softening of the bones, in Muslim countries where women are completely veiled. The lack of sunlight reaching the skin contributes to conditions such as eczema and to ulcers.
The segregation of women is taken so seriously that many houses in Pakistan are surrounded with eight-to-ten-foot-high purdah walls. All rooms face inwards, with windows on the ground floor either built close to the ceiling or with frosted glass to ensure that the women who live there are never seen by passing male guests or tradesmen. In the Northwest Frontier Province, it is illegal to build a house with windows that overlook the windows or garden of another house. In addition to these precautions, Muslim homes also have one room set aside for guests, which usually has direct outside access to further ensure that unrelated male visitors will not catch a glimpse of women living there."

rand

Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:03 pm Post subject: Women

Ibn Warraq also has some nice quotes in his chapter on women in "why I am not a muslim" p299 (I am quoting word for word). He seems to be partially quoting based on his footnote from Ghassan Ascha "Du Status inferieur de la femme en Islam. Paris, 1989. [My comments are in brackets]

Quote:

Omar the second caliph(581-644) said: "Prevent the women from learning to write! Say no to their capricious ways."
On another occassion he said, "Adopt positions opposite those of women. There is great merit in such opposition." And again, "Impose nudity on women because clothes are one reason for leaving the house, to attend marraiges and to appear in public for ceremonies and parties. When a woman goes out frequently she risks meeting another man and finding him attractive even if he is less attractive than her husband; for she is attracted and distracted by anything she does not possess."
The antifeminist sayings of Ali (600-661), the Prophet's cousin and the fourth Caliph are famous:"The entire woman is an evil and what is worse is that it is a necessary evil!"
"You should never ask a woman for her advice because her advice is worthless. Hide them so that they cannot see other men!... [ibn warraq's ...] Do not spend too much time in their company for they will lead you to your downfall!"
"Men, never ever obey your women. Never let them advise you on any matter concerning your daily life. If you let them advise you they will squander all your possessions and disobey all your orders and desires. ...
And finally to a man teaching a woman to write: "Do not add evil to unhappiness."
It will be appropriate to end this introduction with two quotes [I'll only show the 1st] from the famous and much revered philosopher al-Ghazali (1058-1111), whom Professor Montgomery Watt describes as the greatest Muslim after Muhammad. In his "The revival of the religious sciences" Ghazali defines women's role:
"She should stay at home and get on with her spinning, she should not go out often, she must not be well informed, nor must she be communicative with her neighbors and only visit them when absolutely necessary; she should take care of her husband and respect him in his presence and his absence and seek to satisfy him in everything; she must not cheat on him nor extort money from him; she must not leave her [it may be a mistranslation to say that it was her house] house without his permission and if given his permission she must leave surreptitiously. She should put on old clothes and take deserted streets and alleys, avoid markets, and make sure that a stranger does not hear her voice or recognize her; she must not speak to a friend of her husband even in need....Her sole worry should be her virtue, her home as well as her prayers and her fast. If a friend of her husband calls when the latter is absent she must not open the door nor reply to him in order to safeguard her and her husband's honour. She should accept what her husband gives her as sufficient sexual needs at any moment...She should be clean and ready to satisfy her husband's sexual needs at any moment."
page 314 of ibn warraq
"According to theologians, [he quotes the Ascha book]the husband has the right to administer corporal punishment to his wife if she
1. refuses to make herself beautiful for him,
2. refuses to meet his sexual demands,
3. leaves the house without permission or without any legitimate reason recognized by law; or
4. neglects her religious duties.
A Hadith attributes the following saying to the prophet: "Hang up your whip where your wife can see it." There are a number of other hadiths that contradict this one. In those, Muhammad explicitly forbids men to beat their wives---in which case the Prophet himself is contradicting what the Koran, enshrining divine law, permits."

rand

Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:05 pm Post subject: Child marriages

Jan Goodwin wrote "The price of Honor: Muslim women lift the veil of silence on the Islamic world" page 1

Quote:

It began with Maria. She entered my life for a brief while when she was nine years old. I lost her two years later to a world that I then little understood. I was the mother she did not have, and she was the daughter I had never given birth to. The last time I saw her, she was sobbing bitterly. Between gasps for breaths, she said she wanted to kill herself. I shuddered as she said it, the shock no less than it had been the first time she spoke it six months before.

The final image of her is her face pale with grief, her brown eyes as dark as the deep shadows under them that no eleven-year-old should have. She moved stiffly, the bruises from her most recent beating still vivid. Maria was a bargaining chip in an auction that was closed to outsiders. I never saw her again, but there isn't a day that I don't think about her, wonder how she is, and ask myself, Could I have done more to stop the apparent inevitability of what happened to her?

In trying to locate her afterward, the cultural barriers came down to close me out as effectively as the four walls of purdah that went up and now cofine her. A year later, I was told that Maria, still weeks short of her twelfth birthday, was pregnant with her first child. Forcibly married, she had been traded off at the age of eleven to a man described to me as "already having two wives, and so old he has lost all his teeth and shakes all the time," possibly from Parkinson's disease. In exchange for Maria, the ancient bridegroom had given one of his daughters to Maria's father, a widower who had wanted to remarry and could not afford the bride-price.

rand

Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:27 pm Post subject: Chapter 4 on women

Chapter 4 of the Quran is the chapter on women. The Quran uses the term "you" or "your" to refer to the reader. The word "you(r)" is masculine, as when Allah created Arabic, there were no gender neutral terms for "you". But based on the context, "you" refers to males.

Quote:

[4.3] And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.

"You" must refer to males.

Quote:

[4.4] And give women their dowries as a free gift, but if they of themselves be pleased to give up to you a portion of it, then eat it with enjoyment and with wholesome result.

You are males, they are females.

Quote:

[4.15] And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

Your women, means that women are possisions of men. The four witnesses must be men.

Quote:

[4.20] And if you wish to have (one) wife in place of another and you have given one of them a heap of gold, then take not from it anything; would you take it by slandering (her) and (doing her) manifest wrong?

Quote:

[4.23] Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Quote:

[4.24] And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

Quote:

[4.25] And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Quote:

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

It means men are greater than women. Women must obey men, not men obeying women. This is because men are more excellent than women.
=======

Quote:

4: 12. Allah commands you concerning your children; a male shall have as much as the share of two females; but if their be females only, numbering more than two, then they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased leave; and if there be one, she shall have the half. And his parents each of them a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a child, but if he have no child and his parents be his heirs, then his mother shall have a third; and if he have brothers and sisters, then his mother shall have a sixth, after the payment of any bequests he may have bequeathed or of debts. Your fathers and your children; you know not which of them is more beneficent to you. This fixing of portions is from Allah. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, Wise

Unknown 222

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 93

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:31 pm Post subject:

bush badee wrote:

PLz tell me what errors you found in those two surahs...

bread
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:05 pm Post subject:

Daylight236 wrote:

bush badee wrote:

PLz tell me what errors you found in those two surahs...

You misunderstand Daylight. Bush is saying there are errors in ALL the chapters 1 to 113. He only agrees with the last one, number 114.

How is your accounting coming along. There are people here who`d like to point out to you inheritance accounting problems in the Quran. Are you game? Brother?

Unknown 222

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 93

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:36 pm Post subject:

bread wrote:

Daylight236 wrote:

bush badee wrote:

PLz tell me what errors you found in those two surahs...

okies.....
There are so many questions asked in just one thread that i think it is not possible for me to answer all of them.bcz it takes so much time...also i havent fully gone through all the posts of this topic....i think we should go one by one to understand......

So lets take Inheritance Law Of Islam.......

So brothers.......whats the fallacy in inheritance law given by Quran.???

rand

Joined: 28 Jul 2002
Posts: 1752

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:05 pm Post subject: Cults

http://members.lycos.nl/whatsthisthen/kisshank.html or http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv Last edited by rand on Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

Unknown 222

Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 93

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Cults

rand wrote:

http://members.lycos.nl/whatsthisthen/kisshank.html

hmmmmm the site is not opening in my browser...what is in it...plz give some other link or copy paste it here.....

bush badee

Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 1442
Location: usa

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:05 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Bush badee, rand is just quoting the justifications used by Muslims, he's not himself one. Some people ought to read more carefully on this site

Yes people should read more carefully/.
Practice what you preach.

You might note that I generally say so and so posted.
Or a take a quote from their quote because I do not want to go find the origonal statement.

My posts are always directed at the person who I am quoting and not neccessarily at the one who quoted it from some one else.
So do not take offence if it was not you that saidd it.

Yah Got to read the stuff carefully.

Daylight wrote

Quote:

So brothers.......whats the fallacy in inheritance law given by Quran.???

It was written in the koran. Laughing

Look lets all agree that for the most part the koran is full of crap, hate, bile and calls and excuses to and for murder.

Why wast all the time with long quotes.
If I wanted to read the Koran, I have 4 copies including a completely indexed copy on my hard drive, all cross referenced.

If we want to talk about fairey tales, "Alice in Wonderland" would be a great place to start.

Do you people here know that the author was a Great Mathamatician.
But unfortunetly he was also a pedaphile.
Damn, there I go bring up Mohammed (JK&CM) again
But no one ever accused Mo of being a great mathamatician.
_________________
to answere directly email to
Bushbadee@aol.com

Display posts from previous:

	Faith Freedom International Forum Index -> Quran (errancies, miracles and science)	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Page 2 of 5

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum